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Transcript

"Season 4 Wrap Up" with Chris, Eddie, & Cody · The Weight

• 0:00
  Chris McAlilly: [INTRO] Life can be heavy. So heavy in fact that the weight we carry can sometimes cause us to lose hope.
• 0:13
  Eddie Rester: But we've all come across those people in life who seem to be experiencing the same world we live in, except they maintain a great depth of joy and hope.
• 0:22
  Chris McAlilly: A former generation called this gravitas.
• 0:24
  Chris McAlilly: It was their description of a soul that had gained enough weightiness to be attractive, like all things with a gravitational pull.
• 0:33
  Eddie Rester: Those are the people we want to talk to. On this podcast, we talk to pastors, entrepreneurs, artists, mental health experts, and many others.
• 0:43
  Chris McAlilly: We'll create space for heavy topics, but we'll be listening for a quality of soul that could be called gravitas.
• 0:50
  Eddie Rester: Welcome to The Weight. [END INTRO]
• 0:52
  Chris McAlilly: I'm Chris McAlilly.
• 0:53
  Eddie Rester: And I'm Eddie Rester. Welcome to The Weight.
• 0:55
  Eddie Rester: This is our year-end wrap up and so we have a couple of special guests. One, sitted, seating...
• 1:03
  Chris McAlilly: Sitted?
• 1:03
  Eddie Rester: Seated. Seated to my left today. He has a beard, long hair. He roots for the Braves. He really loots, roots for a lot of losers...
• 1:17
  Chris McAlilly: He loots?
• 1:18
  Eddie Rester: He'll... I don't know. We're in the room together.
• 1:20
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah we are.
• 1:21
  Eddie Rester: I'm thrown off.
• 1:22
  Chris McAlilly: I know. It's different.
• 1:23
  Eddie Rester: It's different. So it's Cody Hickman is to my left.
• 1:28
  Eddie Rester: He's the father of...
• 1:31
  Chris McAlilly: Many.
• 1:31
  Cody Hickman: Many children.
• 1:32
  Eddie Rester: It's 73 children.
• 1:32
  Eddie Rester: He works as our producer behind the scenes, which is how we like it. But we always let him out of his cage once a year.
• 1:42
  Cody Hickman: Once a year.
• 1:43
  Eddie Rester: And today's the day.
• 1:44
  Chris McAlilly: There it is. How does it feel?
• 1:46
  Cody Hickman: You know, I look forward to this day every year.
• 1:49
  Eddie Rester: Better than Christmas.
• 1:49
  Cody Hickman: I forgot about it, honestly, that I got to be a part of it. So it's a surprise.
• 1:51
  Cody Hickman: So it's even better.
• 1:54
  Chris McAlilly: What a gift.
• 1:55
  Cody Hickman: I know. It's just like Christmas Day. It's great.
• 1:57
  Eddie Rester: Your voice, it sounds good. It sounds good for this episode.
• 2:00
  Cody Hickman: This mic is a little bit better than y'all's.
• 2:03
  Chris McAlilly: You, so you said we have a special guest.
• 2:06
  Chris McAlilly: Who else is with us?
• 2:06
  Cody Hickman: Oh, other special guests. We also have, we have Chris McAlilly. Believe it or not.
• 2:12
  Chris McAlilly: Still here.
• 2:13
  Cody Hickman: Still here.
• 2:14
  Eddie Rester: Still got his beard.
• 2:14
  Cody Hickman: Still got his beard.
• 2:15
  Chris McAlilly: That's right.
• 2:15
  Chris McAlilly: Losing his hair up top.
• 2:17
  Cody Hickman: Hey, man, I wasn't gonna say that.
• 2:18
  Chris McAlilly: That's okay.
• 2:18
  Cody Hickman: You didn't have to do that.
• 2:19
  Chris McAlilly: It's alright.
• 2:19
  Cody Hickman: You don't have to call yourself out.
• 2:21
  Chris McAlilly: Hey, it's alright. I'm good with it.
• 2:23
  Cody Hickman: All right. Who else do we have Chris?
• 2:25
  Chris McAlilly: And we have Eddie. [LAUGHTER]
• 2:26
  Cody Hickman: [LAUGHTER]
• 2:29
  Chris McAlilly: Eddie's here, though. We're so glad!
• 2:31
  Eddie Rester: [IN UNISON WITH CODY] In the room.
• 2:32
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, that's right. We've been on Zoom.
• 2:33
  Cody Hickman: It's been a long time.
• 2:34
  Chris McAlilly: You know, I will say, we've been doing this zoom thing where I have to watch your mouth move on the screen very, very closely to make sure that I don't jump in front of you.
• 2:45
  Chris McAlilly: And what I'm realizing is one of the things
• 2:45
  Eddie Rester: Right.
• 2:46
  Eddie Rester: I've learned in this season, since we're about to get into a wrap up of this particular season, is just how hard communication is through Zoom.
• 3:01
  Eddie Rester: Agreed.
• 3:01
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, it's different.
• 3:03
  Eddie Rester: We've had to learn hand signals.
• 3:05
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah. There's a delay. So much of communication I've learned this season is nonverbal. That's one of my big takeaways.
• 3:12
  Eddie Rester: So we try to do these subtle hand signals, because we're all on Zoom with our guests. And trying to do these signals. Like, I've got something, I want to say something. And then, like, every now and then our guests will look at us like, what? What's going on?
• 3:27
  Cody Hickman: I wonder I bet we could go back through like the video footage that we don't really use very much and find those moments where y'all are looking real dumb.
• 3:34
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, there are a lot of those moments where it's most of the time, we're looking dumb. But yeah, you did, what kind of like a crow hand thing. And then you did a gun thing.
• 3:43
  Eddie Rester: Yeah. Looks like a white podcast gang sign.
• 3:46
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah. So we're here. So we're here. This was, we're starting to go back and look at some of the episodes from this season. And it typically what we do is we start in February, and then we run through, you know, Thanksgiving or so. And so it's always fun to go back in and think about the episodes and look back at the season. I will say that I sometimes forget what was done in February. February seems like a long time ago.
• 4:15
  Eddie Rester: It absolutely does. I mean, I'm going back looking going, "We really did that interview then?" But we had some incredible interviews this year. So I guess my question for the two of you. Well, I mean, we know we're gonna have some that are gonna be great interviews. I mean, you expect them to be great interviews, but sometimes we interview someone and it's just unexpectedly wonderful. Was there an episode this year for either of you that you, maybe we sat down to do it and you're like, "I don't know how that's gonna go." And then it just really was great.
• 4:51
  Cody Hickman: I'll put the Matt Luke episode up there. I know it was a little more recent one, which maybe it's just fresher on the dome right now because it is hard to remember back to February, but Matt's if I remember correctly, we were in like a crunch moment where we needed something to get out that week. And Eddie, I don't like to give you any type of... I'm not going to do it.
• 5:11
  Eddie Rester: Don't do it. Just don't.
• 5:12
  Cody Hickman: Yep. Eddie got us hooked up with Matt. And I actually wasn't on for that one.
• 5:17
  Cody Hickman: I think I was out sick or somewhere. So y'all did that one. So I didn't get to hear it until I was editing it. And it's so, so good. Just as a person with all these children, as you mentioned earlier, it was refreshing to hear him talk about faith and work and how he makes decisions, and especially now lately making decisions that put family first.
• 5:42
  Eddie Rester: Yeah, being being present. I think the line for me was the comparison's the thief of joy, and I still remember
• 5:49
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, I think that Matt's a great person. I that one.
• 5:49
  Chris McAlilly: think one of the things about that that I've realized is that the college football industry, and really, college athletics as a business model, is accelerating at such a pace and there are all these realignments and everybody's chasing the bag as Prime says. And in that environment, you don't think about, or at least I don't spend a lot of time thinking about, the impact on the families of coaches--not the head coaches, just people that are kind of working behind the scenes, working in coordinator rooms.
• 6:25
  Chris McAlilly: There's a lot of familial fallout and impact to the industry. And that's heavy. It is. It's something that is weighty. And, you know, you see what it requires, if you're a person of character, and you want to value relationships over just chasing rings, or chasing money, just kind of what that looks like. So that was a really good episode. What about for you, Eddie, in terms of surprising episodes?
• 6:54
  Eddie Rester: So Kendall Vanderslice last, I think March?
• 6:59
  Eddie Rester: Let me kind of scroll through the episodes here. She is a baker. She's a seminary trained baker. And so this entire theology of food that we talked about was just brilliant. She's one that someone suggested for us. I think maybe a publisher reached out to us, and I didn't know much about her. And she was joyful and fun, and really just a bright light, talking about what she was passionate about.
• 7:31
  Chris McAlilly: I think for me, the Ryan Burge episode is the one that I'll lift up. Ryan Burge is a sociologist. He is someone who lives in middle America and is watching the decline of American Christianity, particularly in Protestantism, and there are a lot of reasons that get thrown out for why the church is in decline. A lot of them are explanations that really are just ginned up in the culture war. And what Ryan does is he just looks at the hard data, and he's pulling from the GSS and other longitud... longitudinal studies.
• 8:09
  Eddie Rester: It's a big word.
• 8:09
  Eddie Rester: Take your time.
• 8:11
  Chris McAlilly: I know. I know.
• 8:11
  Chris McAlilly: It takes a while. And he's drawing and extracting particular insights that aren't, you know, purely objective. He does have an opinion in the game, but he is just saying, here are the facts on the ground, and this is how they're read. And there's just all kinds of reasons why people are not coming to church. A lot of them have to do with not everybody's having as many kids as Cody.
• 8:36
  Eddie Rester: Right.
• 8:37
  Chris McAlilly: So birth rates are an issue. Not everybody is young anymore. And so the church is in decline, because it's just the population of people who are coming to church are older.
• 8:49
  Eddie Rester: And there are smaller generations behind them.
• 8:52
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, that's right. And the church is having a hard time reaching minority, people in minority populations, particularly Hispanics. And there's a, I mean, everybody does know this, there is just a vast decline in institutional trust, especially among younger people. And so it gives rise to what are called the nones in the researched people who are younger, who identify with no religious community, no religious affiliation. They say they have none. And, so yeah, I mean, I think that episode for me was helpful in just reminding me that the landscape is just more complex than most of the caricatures that you hear in the news.
• 9:35
  Eddie Rester: I think if there's a theme for me--I'm going to pick up on something you said there--a theme for me that we kind of heard from multiple times this year was the role of institutions, the decline of institutions, but also the role of institution in creating--creating who people are, how we live together.
• 9:51
  Eddie Rester: Whether that was Kathy Khang or Matt Mikalos... I messed it up on the episode. I'm gonna... I can't... [SIGHS] "Loving Disagreement," you know, "Open and Unafraid," the LowrEy Crews, his work creating an institution in the 18th Ward in New Orleans.
• 10:11
  Eddie Rester: So for me, there's this thing of yes, institutions are dying, and institutions are necessary.
• 10:20
  Chris McAlilly: Let me just pick up on the the Lowrey Crews episode. So this is an individual that I went to high And that, I mean, for me was just an awesome episode because school with and we played high school soccer together. And he's taken sports very different than the Matt Luke episode, in a very much commercialized environment where colleges are using athletics to build their donor base in a lot of ways, and then the impact and fallout on families. What Lowrey is doing in New Orleans is he's teaching kids after school. He's using sports as a way to re-weave the social fabric in New Orleans across the different wards, across different socio-economic groups, and different races and classes. And using sports as a way to kind of pull young people together. And I do think it's at a time where large institutional life in America does seem to be kind of fragmenting and pulling apart. This is a new institution. It's a new innovation.
• 11:23
  Chris McAlilly: I was reconnecting with somebody I've known for a long time. But it's just cool to see someone who's doing really amazing work on the ground. What about for you Cody? Surprising episodes, ones that that you remember that you think about?
• 11:42
  Cody Hickman: Um, so that the other one that comes to mind, I just pulled it up here was Toni Collier. I hadn't heard of Tony Collier before.
• 11:49
  Eddie Rester: Oh, she was... Oh, yeah.
• 11:52
  Cody Hickman: Just so much energy and hopefulness and positivity in that whole conversation. And she shares her story and her background and some kind of church hurt that she went through and then you know, come through to where she is now. And some of the work that she's doing. "Broken Crayons Still Color," isn't that the name of her?
• 12:09
  Eddie Rester: That's the name of her podcast and her book.
• 12:11
  Cody Hickman: That's right.
• 12:11
  Eddie Rester: And so she... Y eah, when I got done with us recording that, I want to dance or jump around or something. I didn't. I didn't, because...
• 12:20
  Cody Hickman: You can't.
• 12:20
  Eddie Rester: I can't dance. And so...
• 12:24
  Cody Hickman: We have video evidence of that.
• 12:28
  Eddie Rester: There, there is a difference between what I did and real dancing. [LAUGHTER]
• 12:35
  Cody Hickman: [LAUGHTER]
• 12:36
  Eddie Rester: Please don't tell Tammy I said that. She was my...
• 12:40
  Chris McAlilly: Tammy, Tammy, I'll send this episode to you, Tammy and shout out to Tammy.
• 12:45
  Eddie Rester: Tammy Wilson, she a dance pro and assigned to me to teach me how to do two minutes of movement and not fall down. [LAUGHTER]
• 12:54
  Chris McAlilly: This was a fundraiser that Eddie did a couple years ago. And there is video footage.
• 12:59
  Cody Hickman: I liked that that's how you describe dancing, just two minutes of not falling down.
• 13:08
  Eddie Rester: The other, there was an episode this year I was thinking about that, it was very timely. Jason Vickers talking about the Asbury revival. And that seems--that was back in February, and that seems like a lifetime ago. But it was a moment that was happening that caught the attention of America.
• 13:26
  Eddie Rester: Jason, at that time, was on the faculty at Asbury College, and the seminary?
• 13:32
  Chris McAlilly: He was at the seminary and the revival was at the college.
• 13:35
  Eddie Rester: But he was a firsthand. And he allowed us just a look at it, not to gawk at it, but just to hear from someone there, but also to talk with us about what revival means. And it's not just the show. It's not just people coming, but what is the fruit it's going to bear, long-term.
• 13:57
  Eddie Rester: And that was when I really was glad we got to pull together so we could talk about something in the moment.
• 14:04
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, he described it as beautiful, but also humble. And you know, I think depending on your religious background or your lack thereof, you may think about kind of this idea that people are experiencing a revival in a particular kind of way. Either you are predisposed to think this is, you know, something bizarre or a spectacle or something that is for some kind of agenda or end. And Jason did a good job of saying, you know, this has been a part of the American religious consciousness for a very long time, although it hasn't happened in recent history to the extent or scale. And it's something that was particularly happening among young people.
• 14:53
  Chris McAlilly: Young people who are longing and desiring connection with God, and that was happening over the course of multiple days.
• 15:02
  Eddie Rester: Yeah. Cody, any thoughts on those episodes?
• 15:02
  Eddie Rester: And we had another episode that was related to that one, Winfield Bevins, who is also on the faculty of of Asbury, and is someone who thinks about the work of the Spirit and the work of worship and art and the way in which we connect with God and kind of ancient liturgical practices. And he also spoke to that. And those two episodes kind of hang together in my mind from this year.
• 15:36
  Cody Hickman: No, I've really enjoyed... I mean, that was a such a, just a crazy cultural moment, I think, one that I hadn't experienced in terms of, like, nationwide coverage of a revival happening that just seemed to spark out of nowhere.
• 15:52
  Cody Hickman: So getting that perspective was really helpful to kind of... It grounded it a little bit. I think I tend to be a little bit more of a skeptic on a lot of things. So you know, getting information, but just clips here and there kind of just can be confusing. You don't really know what's going on. But having that kind of on-the-ground experience kind of grounded you into it.
• 16:12
  Cody Hickman: And the word "humble" stood out to me, too. It's not something that's flashy, and trying to be seen. It's a humble movement.
• 16:18
  Cody Hickman: And then even, you know, I think it was Auburn, just a couple of weeks ago. I saw there was, like, several hundred students who got baptized. And so you still see stuff like that happening. And I think for me, just, it's a good reminder that the Spirit still is active and moves and works on people.
• 16:36
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, I think, you know, one of the conversations, one of the things I've been thinking about, through the last several years of doing the podcast is just this need or desire that maybe I have, like, I think part of it's just a longing that I have to have glimpses of hope. You know?
• 17:02
  Chris McAlilly: Sometimes you get kind of bogged down in the things that are happening day-to-day in life and work and family and whatnot. And sometimes it's helpful to just kind of have a breath of fresh air, you know, a new perspective, and to be reminded that maybe God is doing something in the world beyond what you can see.
• 17:21
  Chris McAlilly: And I do think those two episodes reminded me that there is this deep hunger and longing that is underneath kind of the cultural narrative that sometimes to me feels dark or despairing. But like on the ground, especially among young people, there's a deep hunger and a longing for connection with God. And when that sparks up or bubbles over, it's something to pay attention to.
• 17:49
  Chris McAlilly: What else, looking over the catalogue from this year, stands out to you, Eddie?
• 17:55
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, there is a... I mean, the podcast that we
• 17:55
  Eddie Rester: Couple of episodes. One is Edward Grinnan episode about his experience with his mom with Alzheimer's.
• 18:03
  Eddie Rester: And I had a conversation with someone in Jackson just about how he gave voice to a lot of what she had felt, in his feeling, dealing with a parent and dealing with siblings, and do is called The Weight. And there are heavy realities that how hard that is. And it was just good to hear someone who had been through, made it to the other side, and is able to talk about it in a hopeful way, about how God works and being able to watch for what what God did. And just a reminder that there are... Life is hard and growing old, neither of you know this yet, but you will. Growing old, Cody, can be hard. Very difficult. So. And so, you know, I think for me, it was very...
• 18:50
  Eddie Rester: That's one of the episodes, I think, has people, there are people who still need to hear that episode.
• 18:58
  Eddie Rester: Oh, Beth Ann Fennelly.
• 18:58
  Chris McAlilly: To Beth Ann Fennelly.
• 18:58
  Eddie Rester: Yeah.
• 18:59
  Chris McAlilly: Who wrote a piece in The Washington Post about her mother who was suffering from dementia and she are in the context of what it means to be human. And one of actually moved her down to Oxford in the midst of the those that, in the work of being a pastor that you hear about a pandemic. And so, you know, there are conversations, if lot but you don't hear a lot of conversations about, are how to care for aging parents. It's something that a lot of people go through. But there are, I don't see a lot of resources about and so this is very much one of those conversations. It reminded me of the conversation that we had a couple of years you're new to the podcast, you can go back and find ago with... Gracious, I'm forgetting her name. The writer in town whose mother...
• 19:55
  Chris McAlilly: conversations about the topic of death or grief, you know, hard mental health issues. That's a part of the conversation. But there's also hopeful episodes.
• 20:05
  Chris McAlilly: And one of my, one of the images, I think, that's gonna stick with me from this season comes out of the episode with Anne Snyder. That was one of the most hopeful episodes.
• 20:18
  Eddie Rester: Yeah, oh yeah.
• 20:18
  Chris McAlilly: To me. Anne is one of these just hopeful people and is the editor-in-chief of Comment Magazine. And she's pulling together a lot of public conversations, and trying to articulate a shared moral vision that's rooted in the Christian tradition, but that is broadly applicable. And she talks about her life as if it were a bicycle wheel. Do y'all remember this?
• 20:43
  Eddie Rester: I don't.
• 20:43
  Chris McAlilly: She said that,"My life is the center of a bicycle wheel. And I've got a million spokes going out in all these different directions, gratifying, fulfilling, exhausting responsibilities, relationships and contexts. My vocational life has often surrendered to all of these things," that she's trying to pull together. But there's no, there's no wheel around the spokes. And she was talking about it as like a shared vision or shared common life that holds everything together. And I've thought a lot about that, like, I've got myself and I've got all these different ways in which I'm working and acting, but sometimes it feels less connected from the broader world than it used to be, you know, for all kinds of reasons. And I just keep thinking about that.
• 21:24
  Chris McAlilly: But that episode for me was particularly hopeful.
• 21:26
  Eddie Rester: Yeah, it was one of the... I don't remember that image. But it was, again, there are a lot of favorite episodes this season. We haven't even gotten to the heart of Methodism episodes yet, which are a segment that we added this year, this fall, just a set of episodes released on Mondays, to help people think about what's our tribe, our tradition, which is Methodism. And so what does it mean? What, how did it begin?
• 21:54
  Eddie Rester: How did it grow? What does it sound like in the world? And for me, it's been I don't want to say like going back to seminary, but it's just been a refresher for me of this is who I am and why I am.
• 22:09
  Cody Hickman: For me, I grew up Baptist. So it's like, it's not a refresher. It's just a brand newer for me.
• 22:13
  Chris McAlilly: You're just a new Methodist.
• 22:15
  Cody Hickman: I'm just a new Methodist.
• 22:16
  Eddie Rester: I mean, we've tried to make you Methodist for all these years. And now we had to like get guests.
• 22:22
  Cody Hickman: Was that the plan behind it? I didn't know that!
• 22:24
  Eddie Rester: Yeah. Cody keeps saying the wrong thing, picking the wrong songs.
• 22:29
  Chris McAlilly: We've been patient, but now it's just time
• 22:31
  Eddie Rester: Now it's just time to be blunt.
• 22:31
  Eddie Rester: to make it plain.
• 22:33
  Cody Hickman: I didn't know what's gonna come out like that.
• 22:34
  Cody Hickman: Okay. But yeah, that series, it's been, it was so good to get that. I know that some people don't like going through all the history stuff. I really enjoyed the background. It's a whole lot easier to understand things that are going on now and think about a future if you have a better picture of what's happened.
• 22:52
  Eddie Rester: Exactly. I think that's well said. That yeah, we have to begin to lean... It's not that we need to repeat what John Wesley said. We don't need to repeat what Francis Asbury did. We don't need to become the United Methodist Church post war in 1950, 1960. But there are a lot of threads that need to continue to be woven into who we are and who we can become.
• 23:18
  Cody Hickman: need to rethink the institutions. And so I think that to me, when I'm looking back and hearing some of this for the first time about early Methodism, and you know, how entrepreneurial it was, and how much movement and excitement that was in the Methodist movement in the early days of it, that led to things like planting hospitals and universities and all that stuff.
• 23:43
  Cody Hickman: That stuff... I'm not seeing it anymore. So maybe what does that look like today to start new institutions and to have that momentum?
• 23:53
  Chris McAlilly: So this is...
• 23:54
  Eddie Rester: Start a podcast, maybe. Maybe that's...
• 23:57
  Cody Hickman: That's a good idea.
• 23:57
  Eddie Rester: Yeah, we should do that. I'm sorry. I interrupted you, Reverend McAlilly.
• 24:04
  Chris McAlilly: It's okay.
• 24:05
  Eddie Rester: You know, if you're not going to step into the void there, I will say that as a part of the heart of Methodism series to hear a noted theologian, Episcopal leader in the church crush Chris McAlilly in an episode.
• 24:22
  Cody Hickman: The best moment of the season.
• 24:24
  Eddie Rester: I mean, I sent that little clip around.
• 24:26
  Cody Hickman: It's so good.
• 24:27
  Eddie Rester: To so many people.
• 24:27
  Eddie Rester: I sent it to Chris's dad. Sent it to people that will use it against Chris in the future I mean, it really...
• 24:37
  Cody Hickman: I didn't cut it out of the episode, either. It's in it.
• 24:39
  Eddie Rester: It's in it. It's in it.
• 24:40
  Chris McAlilly: Which episode?
• 24:41
  Cody Hickman: Will Willimon.
• 24:41
  Eddie Rester: Will Willimon episode.
• 24:42
  Cody Hickman: It actually isn't the heart of Methodism. It kind of lives outside of it, but kind of points to it.
• 24:47
  Eddie Rester: Yeah, we were trying to...
• 24:48
  Cody Hickman: Go look for Will Willimon
• 24:49
  Eddie Rester: Will Willimon. He, yeah... Joyful.
• 24:54
  Cody Hickman: So good.
• 24:56
  Eddie Rester: You never know what you're gonna get.
• 24:57
  Chris McAlilly: You don't. It's yeah, it's a good conversation with Dr. Will and he, you know, I think that the thing... I mean, Will is always entertaining. You're always going to... You never know what you're gonna hear from Will Willimon.
• 25:11
  Eddie Rester: Don't push back on an Irish Methodist Bishop who's, yeah, a little older, little more experienced.
• 25:17
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, that's right. Nevertheless, the thing that I took from that episode is that the heart of Methodism is the Gospel and the Gospel in motion. There's the sense of that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the center. If it's not the center, then, you know, what are we doing? But the Gospel of Jesus decenters us. It moves us out. It makes us uncomfortable, and it ought to. And if it doesn't, maybe something's wrong.
• 25:44
  Chris McAlilly: And tagging that with the episode with Laceye Warner.
• 25:48
  Chris McAlilly: Laceye talked about how, you know, the heart of Methodism was not a doctrinal dispute. It wasn't an argument. It was a missional imperative. And I've... That's something that...
• 26:00
  Chris McAlilly: It was the church has good theology. It's got, you know, the biblical basis and background is there. And yet it has to be activated. You know, Spirit led and driven, and that ultimately, ought to move the church out with a missional imperative to take the Gospel into the world. And I found that episode to be super helpful, as well.
• 26:28
  Eddie Rester: I feel like there's one episode that we need to apologize to the person who was our guest.
• 26:36
  Chris McAlilly: Which one was that?
• 26:37
  Eddie Rester: So right as the baseball season was starting...
• 26:41
  Cody Hickman: I know where this is going.
• 26:42
  Chris McAlilly: I do, too.
• 26:42
  Eddie Rester: For Ole Miss. Ole Miss was doing great. We recorded this episode with Coach Mike Bianco on the heels of the national championship. After we released the episode, I don't think they won a game for about three weeks.
• 26:57
  Chris McAlilly: I feel like that is your fault.
• 27:00
  Eddie Rester: I'll take the blame. I just, I... You know.
• 27:03
  Eddie Rester: Cody, any thought?
• 27:04
  Cody Hickman: You were looking real good before it.
• 27:05
  Eddie Rester: They were looking good before we released this episode, and the bats went cold, the pitchers arms died.
• 27:13
  Cody Hickman: Look, if ever there were a sport that could be impacted by things that are totally unrelated...
• 27:17
  Eddie Rester: Baseball.
• 27:18
  Cody Hickman: Baseball.
• 27:18
  Chris McAlilly: Baseball. Are you superstitious when it comes to baseball?
• 27:21
  Cody Hickman: I'm a little stitious.
• 27:23
  Eddie Rester: Little stitious, not superstitious. Yeah.
• 27:25
  Chris McAlilly: So in terms of your little stitiousness as it relates to baseball, what is an example of your superstitiousness?
• 27:34
  Cody Hickman: I'm typically going to wear the same hat all year.
• 27:39
  Chris McAlilly: I thought you were gonna say underwear.
• 27:40
  Cody Hickman: No, that's gross, Chris. People don't do that.
• 27:42
  Eddie Rester: Come on, Chris.
• 27:42
  Eddie Rester: Really?
• 27:44
  Cody Hickman: I typically get one hat a year. So I'm a Braves fan, as you mentioned earlier.
• 27:48
  Eddie Rester: Yes.
• 27:48
  Chris McAlilly: You buy one hat a year.
• 27:49
  Cody Hickman: One hat a year. I didn't buy one last year. So I got two hats this year. I have a very big head.
• 27:54
  Chris McAlilly: You do.
• 27:54
  Cody Hickman: I don't know if you knew this about me. And so it's hard to find a good fit.
• 27:56
  Chris McAlilly: Much bigger than Eddie's head.
• 27:57
  Cody Hickman: Yeah. Anyway, so I like to get one per year.
• 28:01
  Eddie Rester: Bigger brain.
• 28:01
  Cody Hickman: I have a bigger brain?
• 28:03
  Eddie Rester: By mass. Do you know what mass is? Do I need to... I'm sorry, go ahead. You were explaining your double
• 28:13
  Chris McAlilly: How often... Do you have this documented or
• 28:13
  Cody Hickman: So anyway, just you know, single hat per year.
• 28:13
  Cody Hickman: hats.
• 28:15
  Cody Hickman: That's it. That's about as far as it goes. I'll watch every game, keep it on in the background. Sometimes you have to walk away. There's certain moments. I can't really tell you how I know. But in the moment, you'll know. I need to turn this off and walk away, because we're either in a good spot and I don't want to ruin it. Or we're in a bad spot and I'm just tired of it. But with that good spot and you don't want to ruin it, you got to be really, just, aware. I'm going to turn this off. I'm going to walk away because if I stay in this room, they're gonna lose. It's real.
• 28:38
  Cody Hickman: It's science.
• 28:43
  Cody Hickman: spreadsheet?
• 28:43
  Cody Hickman: No. It's a heart thing.
• 28:46
  Eddie Rester: But, but like, can we bring science into it?
• 28:50
  Chris McAlilly: Like, this is like the Asbury revival.
• 28:52
  Cody Hickman: Yeah.
• 28:52
  Chris McAlilly: It's like, it's a heart thing.
• 28:54
  Eddie Rester: But Josh Gladden, who was a guest on the show...
• 28:56
  Cody Hickman: Right.
• 28:57
  Eddie Rester: Would say we got to have hard science.
• 28:59
  Cody Hickman: Okay.
• 29:00
  Eddie Rester: He talked to us about the the Webb, Hubble...
• 29:04
  Cody Hickman: Space telescope.
• 29:04
  Eddie Rester: The space telescope thingy.
• 29:07
  Cody Hickman: Yeah. Okay.
• 29:08
  Eddie Rester: It's always fascinating to me to have
• 29:08
  Chris McAlilly: Okay, Mr.
• 29:08
  Chris McAlilly: Science Guy. [LAUGHTER].
• 29:14
  Chris McAlilly: [SINGING] Mr. Science Guy.
• 29:22
  Chris McAlilly: scientists as guests because I loved science growing up. I wanted to be an astronaut for a while then I want to be a doctor. Here I am. And so, you know, just hearing Josh Gladden just talk about the universe and creation and what's out there and what's not out there.
• 29:40
  Cody Hickman: And he's a physicist by profession, right?
• 29:41
  Eddie Rester: He's a physicist by profession.
• 29:43
  Chris McAlilly: Eddie, Eddie, typically when he reaches out to guests, fails to get guests.
• 29:47
  Eddie Rester: I do. Oh, I do.
• 29:48
  Chris McAlilly: But one of the... I will say one of the guests that we tried to get on the podcast, but Eddie sent an email and he got a very nice rejection letter from Francis Collins.
• 29:58
  Eddie Rester: Francis Collins, the head of NIH, incredible science wrote...
• 30:05
  Chris McAlilly: "Language of God."
• 30:05
  Eddie Rester: "Language of God," just brilliant. And so for a couple of years, I've been building up...
• 30:10
  Chris McAlilly: The courage.
• 30:11
  Eddie Rester: The courage to send him an email. I didn't expect to get anything back, or at least not anything, like, within a week or two, but just a day.
• 30:21
  Chris McAlilly: An immediate rejection.
• 30:22
  Eddie Rester: Almost immediately.
• 30:24
  Cody Hickman: So kind.
• 30:25
  Eddie Rester: Let's see if I can pull that up.
• 30:28
  Cody Hickman: This is a good chance for our listeners, if you're hearing this, and you have that connection. Like, help us out.
• 30:35
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, if you know Francis Collins, and you can help us find our way there.
• 30:39
  Chris McAlilly: Eddie also wanted to get Mitt Romney. And if Mitt...
• 30:45
  Eddie Rester: I've got the connection. We gotta wait until he's going out the door next year.
• 30:49
  Chris McAlilly: Okay. All right.
• 30:50
  Eddie Rester: [SIGH]
• 30:50
  Chris McAlilly: So if, Mitt, if you're listening to this, and you'd like to come on the show.
• 30:54
  Cody Hickman: He 100% listens.
• 30:55
  Chris McAlilly: Oh, yeah, for sure. And so feel free to reach out to Eddie and set it up.
• 31:02
  Cody Hickman: And while we're doing wishlist items, if anybody... I've been trying this one since before we started the podcast. If anybody has connection with David Ramirez, and he can come on and talk about the Fables album.
• 31:15
  Chris McAlilly: Okay.
• 31:15
  Cody Hickman: That's what I want to happen.
• 31:16
  Eddie Rester: Here's what Dr.
• 31:16
  Eddie Rester: Francis Collins, one of the most decorated scientists, helped crack the DNA code. "Dear Reverend Rester, Thanks for your note in this kind invitation.
• 31:32
  Eddie Rester: But at the present time, I'm completely focused on my research efforts and drafting a book that is already a bit overdue. So with regret, I will need to decline. All the best, Francis." Like we're already friends.
• 31:46
  Chris McAlilly: You're already friends. That's right.
• 31:47
  Cody Hickman: Hey, do you know, I think that leaves the door open for post-book.
• 31:51
  Chris McAlilly: It does. No, there's a way.
• 31:52
  Eddie Rester: There you go. I need to write. I need to check and see. Speaking of book coming out, made me think of Dana Trent, who has a book coming out based on what we talked about.
• 32:03
  Eddie Rester: She shared some of her life story. I'm trying to remember the name of her podcast. But"Between Two Trailers" is the book it's coming out in spring of 2024. So I can't wait. It's just about life, growing up in poverty. Parents were actually drug dealers and how she kind of saw that life and grew out of that life. So.
• 32:27
  Cody Hickman: Breaking Good is her podcast.
• 32:28
  Eddie Rester: Breaking Good.
• 32:29
  Cody Hickman: And she also, going back to grief and dealing with that and the many guests we've had on that type of subject. I think season one was first time we had Dana on.
• 32:38
  Eddie Rester: Yes.
• 32:39
  Cody Hickman: She spoke about grief and navigating the loss of her mother. So that's another good resource if you're in that season of life.
• 32:46
  Chris McAlilly: So for both of you guys, you know, we've done the podcast now for multiple years. And you know, as we come to the end of another season, for you why do you enjoy doing this work together? And what is it that, you know... Where does it sit with you? What, why are you excited about continuing it?
• 33:08
  Chris McAlilly: And you know, what did you learn? Just kind of big picture, not episode specific, but just kind of over the course of the season.
• 33:15
  Cody Hickman: Um, I think for me now that Eddie has moved down south, you know, it's just a good opportunity to get to hear your voice every now and then.
• 33:23
  Eddie Rester: Aw. We're holding hands now.
• 33:25
  Cody Hickman: Holding hands.
• 33:25
  Cody Hickman: Chris, did you want to join? No?
• 33:28
  Cody Hickman: Okay.
• 33:28
  Eddie Rester: Okay. There you go.
• 33:30
  Cody Hickman: IIactually do enjoy that part. So that's, I said it in a way that was kind of making fun of, but I do.
• 33:35
  Eddie Rester: It is good.
• 33:35
  Cody Hickman: Nice to hear from you. I think for me, though, it is getting to hear from people that I normally probably wouldn't hear from. There's some that I would for sure, but there's some people I've never heard their names before and we have on the podcast and it really just expands the resources you have to navigate stuff. So personally, I think it's very practical. I'm thinking back... What's the...
• 34:04
  Cody Hickman: The liturgies for daily stuff, what was that? I can't remember.
• 34:07
  Eddie Rester: "Every Moment Holy."
• 34:08
  Cody Hickman: "Every Moment Holy," that in particular was just like, I'm gonna buy that book now and go through it. Like it sounds amazing to be able to kind of, I don't know, frame all the mundane stuff that happens and that we don't even think twice about and so it just expands my perspectives on things. And I think that alone is worth it. And then a little bit bigger picture, just in terms of Kingdom work. And I think, I'm sure I've spoken to both of you about this a good bit. I love the work we do here on campus at OU. Especially now Yes.
• 34:44
  Cody Hickman: that Eddie's not here.
• 34:45
  Chris McAlilly: Especially.
• 34:46
  Eddie Rester: Especially I gotcha.
• 34:48
  Cody Hickman: Yeah. But you know, there's more to that. I think we have both the desire and the resources to expand beyond just you know, our little block in Oxford or down in Jackson and have conversations that are helpful to other people and resource other people.
• 35:04
  Cody Hickman: There's tons of other pastors and lay leadership folks from churches around, especially the southeast, but all over really that we hear from that are listening to this and been able to take practical things away from it to impact their work, whether it's in the church or you know, lawyers, doctors, whatever you're doing.
• 35:26
  Eddie Rester: Well, and for me, I think it's, we get to hear from voices across the spectrum--theological, political, cultural spectrum.
• 35:31
  Eddie Rester: And that's unique. We are intentional. We try to be intentional about bringing in people, not just Methodist, but Baptist nondenominational, people wh may just be on the edges of faith. We bring in people from sports. Next season, if anybody out there knows how to get in touch with David Brooks. He's one that I really want to talk with simply because he wrote an article about why Americans are mean, right now.
• 36:00
  Eddie Rester: And it's a brilliant article.
• 36:05
  Eddie Rester: And I think he's a conversation partner. And so for me, that's it. It's how do we put different voices in conversation, not maybe so with each other, but so that people can hear them?
• 36:17
  Chris McAlilly: I think it's both for me. It's both, you know, the longer that I tried to sustain life, faith, and work in a way that I just continue to do it in a way that ultimately leads to joy or flourishing, it requires, I'm learning, holy friendships. And that's, you know, one of the things that I appreciate about the podcast is it is a way for us to stay connected. You know, we worked as colleagues for a number of years, but you know, Eddie and I are friends. And so there's this, there's a deep friendship and just, there's a joy that comes in being able to stay connected. And the podcast is one of the ways that we're able to do that.
• 37:02
  Chris McAlilly: And I think that that holy friendship is important. But also, the other kind of dimension, I think, is the need for unlikely friends. And I do think that that's, for me, one of the things that, you know, Dana Trent was not somebody that was on my radar that's a friend of the podcast. And she appreciates our work, and we appreciate hers. And so we're just able to expand as you said, unlikely friends, they they open up windows and expand your vision.
• 37:34
  Chris McAlilly: And there are people that challenge me on this podcast. I mean, people whose ideas I find different or strange or I have to stretch a bit to think in terms of charity. And that's a good thing. I think that one of the things that I want to fight actively against at this particular cultural moment, is just being in a like-minded community. I think being in a like-minded community feels comfortable. But I don't think it's... I think we have a moral obligation, frankly, to kind of break out of that, and to be in conversation with people who think differently, who may have vastly different frames or worldviews. But the podcast is one of the vehicles for me to try to cultivate that kind of a conversation in my life. So wholly an unlikely friends, for me is one of the things that I hold on to.
• 38:30
  Chris McAlilly: That's unique among the podcasting world. I mean, if you
• 38:30
  Eddie Rester: And I think one of the commitments from the very beginning is when we do bump into those people that we may want clicks, go have something where you butt heads to not agree with, that we may not, that stretches us a good bit.
• 38:40
  Eddie Rester: somebody.
• 38:40
  Eddie Rester: That's right. Fight.
• 38:41
  Eddie Rester: We're not going to push back, fight, argue. We're going to
• 38:42
  Cody Hickman: We could make a lot, we could get a lot more give them space to speak, to see where we do connect, and maybe where we do agree, even in a moment in a larger picture. And we may not agree. And I think that's healthy for me in my own life to say you know what I can not always agree with everybody, but there will be things that I can love and agree with people and if not, then it's been good to engage with each other.
• 39:20
  Cody Hickman: views if we did that. But I think it's a unique position to take. And it's one of integrity and humility. And I think it's a good thing about what we're doing.
• 39:29
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, if you want an episode that's just on that, it's Barbara brown Taylor's episode Holy Envy. It really is stretching to see another person's religious point of view from a different perspective. But I'll just bring it back around to the David Taylor episode. That was one that was on prayer. And that's the other dimension. It's friendship, and it's widening my perspective, but it's also deepening. I mean, the podcast is a way that... It deepens my faith. The David Taylor episode is about praying the Psalms. And the book was "Open and Unafraid." And it's about praying the Psalms. And it really gave me a jumping off point to do a sermon series on the Psalms that is really a very important part of this year for me in terms of deepening my own prayer life. And I wouldn't have gotten to that without that conversation, I don't think.
• 40:25
  Eddie Rester: I just want to thank y'all for your hard work.
• 40:28
  Cody Hickman: You talking to us?
• 40:29
  Eddie Rester: I am thanking that, unless I get...
• 40:33
  Cody Hickman: No, no go. I'm gonna, I'll settle in for that.
• 40:34
  Eddie Rester: Nope. I'm speaking to the listener. Listener, thank you for your hard work today.
• 40:36
  Eddie Rester: No, thank you. It,'s really a joy. We launched out in this 4, 5, 6 years ago trying to think about what we'd call it, what we do. And I think we're finding still a rhythm of how to do this. And that's, y'all have done a lot of hard work on this one. I also want to mention that Jake McAnally.
• 40:58
  Cody Hickman: That's right.
• 40:58
  Cody Hickman: Emilie.
• 40:59
  Eddie Rester: Also Emilie Bramlett are a big part of this.
• 41:02
  Eddie Rester: Rachel Chickvara are a big part of this. And so we're just thankful for them and the roles that they play in making this happen, whether it's social media posts, scheduling people.
• 41:16
  Eddie Rester: It takes a team to do this, and we're thankful. I'm thankful for all of them.
• 41:21
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, you can support the podcast for next year on our website. You can go to theweightpodcast.com. If you're a person that you know, wants to support us financially, there's a way to do that. Y ou can make a donation. It does take a team to make this happen.
• 41:36
  Chris McAlilly: And your contributions will allow us to deepen the work and expand it for next year. And then also, you know, we're looking for guests. We're looking for new conversations.
• 41:49
  Chris McAlilly: And, you know, as we continue to build out, you know, more and more folks that are listening, we're interested to know what you'd like to hear. And so there's a place where you can offer a guest application. You can point us in the direction of a book or a topic or a conversation partner that we may not have thought of. We would love for you to.
• 42:13
  Eddie Rester: We've got several this year.
• 42:14
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, we have.
• 42:14
  Chris McAlilly: We'd love for you guys to help us build out what we're going to do for next year. We're still kind of planning that. But we're always just so grateful for an opportunity to be in conversation together and with you. And we look forward to another awesome year in 2024.
• 42:34
  Cody Hickman: That's right.
• 42:34
  Cody Hickman: Enjoy your holiday season. And we'll be back for season five.
• 42:39
  Chris McAlilly: And we back.
• 42:39
  Chris McAlilly: Sorry, that's a Chance the Rapper reference.
• 42:45
  Eddie Rester: I...
• 42:45
  Cody Hickman: Was it?
• 42:45
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah. Probably just need to cut that.
• 42:48
  Chris McAlilly: [LAUGHTER]
• 42:48
  Eddie Rester: [OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like, subscribe, or leave a review.
• 43:00
  Chris McAlilly: If you'd like to support this work financially or if you have an idea for a future guest you can go to theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]