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Openreach’s PMO: Smashing perceptions and winning awards · Project Podcast

0:13
Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
0:17
the project profession. This special episode is guest
0:20
hosted by Emma Ruth. Arnaz Pemberton, chair of apm's.
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Pmo specific interest group and director of consulting services
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at Wellington. She'll be in conversation with
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Kathryn. Lum of open.
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Reach the fiber and network delivery.
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Pmo at openreach was the recipient of apm's 2022.
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Pmo of the Year award. The judges praised, the pmo for
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working on relationships and on accessible ways to bring
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benefits and also for generating Joy, through the work itself.
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Listen onto here, Catherine talked about how and why the pmo
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was established, the transformation Journey at went
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on and also why pmo's have something of an image problem
1:00
and how to break the bias? Welcome to the latest AP on
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podcast. I'm very happy to have with me
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Kathryn. Lum from openreach the 2022.
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Pmo of the year and program of the Year Awards winner.
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Thank you for being here and congratulations, Catherine.
1:18
Thank you, Emma. So let's start with the easy
1:20
question. First, tell us a little bit
1:22
about you and your journey. Absolutely.
1:26
And so as I said, I'm Kathryn Lum more.
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Caffeine Bell said for anyone who worked with me pre-marriage
1:31
I live just outside leads and I lead the transformation pmo in
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one of upper reaches. Has business units and I suppose
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my career as almost come full circle and as I actually started
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my graduate scheme in a project control, pmo support will and I
1:47
kind of always say, it's the sliding door moment of my whole
1:50
life. Emma was was getting The
1:51
Graduate trainee position, a fabulous, small consultancy
1:55
company, which specialized in systems integration called
1:58
Centegra and I'm a first day I kind of turned up with an
2:01
incredible work ethic filled with common sense but my tool
2:05
box was empty and Oh, kind of coming from the middle of
2:07
nowhere in Cumbria pre-internet. I wasn't really particularly
2:11
worldly and I just really really felt out of my depth and but
2:15
very quickly found myself in a really great project team, you
2:19
know and after many years of boring jobs, when a student at
2:22
University the rule you know the role of being a project manager
2:26
of pmo. It really really it lit a fire
2:29
in me and then kind of followed. Lots of fabulous rotations.
2:33
Doing everything from pmo Project planning risk management
2:36
taking a Actions, you know, kind of understanding the end-to-end
2:40
project management life cycle, delivery framework, lots of work
2:43
in requirements, contract management, defects technical
2:47
service transitions working in service operations and I kind of
2:50
put all those different bits of the jigsaw together and an
2:53
account of found myself eventually becoming a project
2:57
manager. And at that point, I basically
3:00
spent all of my 20s finding the most demanding projects that I
3:04
could pack it up my little suitcase, Traveling all over.
3:07
The country are kind of living in hotels, three or four nights
3:09
a week. So yes I spent a lot of time in
3:12
London working on an NHS IT contract which was fantastic
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kind of jumped over to Belfast. Got a bit of a neck.
3:18
First Transformation experience on a civil service project then
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moved up to New Castle working with the government in Edinburgh
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and Glasgow and a big devolved systems integration project.
3:29
And you know, if I'm really honest Emma, I admit I work too
3:32
much. Slept under my desk too often
3:35
partied way too hard. Sorry.
3:36
Sorry networked and but it really kind of expedited my
3:40
experience, which has kind of led to some pretty meaty program
3:43
manager and program director roles both on customer-facing
3:47
projects, but more recently, moving into transformation.
3:52
So What attracted you to kind of come back through delivery and
3:56
back into the pmo is an industry, it's interesting.
3:59
So I am absolutely a project manager by trade and about three
4:04
years ago. I was kind of program.
4:06
Gina a pretty meaty transformation program.
4:09
In my previous organization, they actually approached me and
4:13
into leading their we called it a TMR transformation management
4:16
office. But you know, for all intents
4:18
and purposes, it is a pmo. And I'll be honest, it a lot of
4:22
thinking went on. It was a really tough decision
4:25
and if I'm really candid, I think that's because because I
4:28
feel and I know a lot of my colleagues feel, there's quite
4:31
an industry-wide stigma surrounding pmo's, sometimes,
4:34
you know what kind of looked at as?
4:36
Oh stickers as policeman, you know, I spent much of my career
4:40
navigating and avoiding some of these kind of low value box
4:44
ticking pmo's because, you know, I often didn't feel the value
4:47
myself and when this opportunity came along, I did quite a lot of
4:51
ping-ponging and I kind of decided I could continue being
4:54
frustrated. I could win Jack could Moon
4:56
about the pmo's or actually I could use this as an opportunity
4:59
and do something about it. And the more I thought about it,
5:02
the more I just knew that I could make a greater impact
5:05
moving into. Hammer evolve evolve in the
5:08
model the value. And I kind of came up with a
5:11
vision that, you know, I really wanted to break the bias on the
5:15
perception of pmo's and, you know, obviously Emma, like every
5:19
pmo. You know, I wanted to ensure
5:21
excellence in the delivery of our projects and our programs,
5:24
but to me that's a given. But I do believe that a pmo can
5:26
kind of set the tone for how the whole team operates.
5:30
So I just want you to smash those perceptions and and do it
5:33
a little bit differently but that that was A tough decision,
5:37
to make it all kind of went through.
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But, you know, every pathway isn't isn't positive and sadly
5:44
within days of starting this new role.
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There was a, the board level leadership, changed the business
5:49
pivoted, the role kind of disappeared and became something
5:53
very different to the one taken another.
5:55
Well, don't lots of things in that year.
5:58
And you know, ultimately, I think the comment one, very
6:02
trusted and generous colleagues said to me was it was like,
6:05
putting Ronaldo. Ingles it was just totally the
6:09
wrong fit for me. And so again, you know, I could
6:12
kind of win John Moon again or I could just accept that it hadn't
6:15
worked out as I hoped and do something about it.
6:18
So, two years ago, Emma found a pmo senior manager role
6:22
advertising up and reach and I kind of decided to give it
6:25
another girl to find a place to to meet my vision went through
6:29
interviewing and got the rules. So yeah, that's how I ended up
6:31
at leading a pmo. That's a really interesting and
6:36
I think everybody that's listening.
6:38
That's worked in pmo, will be able to relate to that stigma,
6:42
that still exists in some organizations and trying to find
6:45
the balance of being the police, which is a legitimate part of
6:49
our role, as well as kind of driving the future and
6:53
innovating and, and doing all that other stuff.
6:56
So, I think that's, it's interesting that you've
6:58
experienced that as well. And I think like, I say
7:00
something that everybody will be able to definitely relate to if
7:03
They've worked with in or alongside a pmo for sure so
7:08
let's get a little bit more into the pmo itself.
7:11
Tell us a little bit about openreach so we can understand
7:13
the little bit of the context where you're pmos.
7:15
It's no absolutely context is everything so openreach.
7:19
I'm sure you'll have all heard about as intense in the vans on
7:22
the street but we connect millions of UK customers to The
7:26
Wider world through our Network. We provide more than 28 million
7:31
consumers. We connect more than 5.6 Million
7:34
UK businesses, and ultimately, the majority of the UK will be
7:37
an Old Pro each customer, but you just might not know it
7:40
because your consumer Network through what we call a customer
7:43
provider. So, I think about your internet
7:45
provider, like, Sky, talktalk, BT that there's 800 of them that
7:49
we work with as our customers and our purpose in a poem.
7:53
Each is massive, you know, sometimes is a little bit
7:56
dramatic ever, but you know, I consider moments in history of
7:58
that. Are that have changed the world.
7:59
You never think about the Industrial Revolution or a
8:02
little bit more recently in a moving from hot horses and cats
8:05
to cars or from black and white TVs to color TVs.
8:09
You know, there's all these changes and I think the
8:10
revolution that we are living through now is the move to
8:14
fiber. You know, many of us are you
8:16
know now able to work from home, thanks to new technology but
8:19
that was just Unthinkable. 10 years ago when we were all
8:22
dialing into Cole's on a fixed line headset.
8:25
You know, an old technology is continually demanding higher and
8:30
more reliable bandwidths so our mission.
8:33
And open a chest, the rollout fiber to at least 25 million
8:37
homes by 2026 and we're currently at 9 million.
8:41
So we're making pretty pretty good progress.
8:45
So that's kind of open reach, but if we kind of delve down
8:47
into a preach, I work in it. Split into business units and I
8:50
work in one of the biggest business units called effendi
8:53
fiber Network delivery to kind of put a bit of scale to that.
8:57
It's an operational team of over 12,000 led by a phenomenal and
9:02
inspiring managing Director. Matt Hemmings and we're
9:05
basically building and connecting our customers at a
9:08
most of those, you know, most of the 12,000 people are the
9:11
engineers that you see out in the fans on the street.
9:14
So we kind of jumped down into effendi the business unit.
9:17
I then work in a subunit in there called transformation and
9:20
change for an incredible inspiring and fantastic director
9:24
called Zen Bowen. And we've got about 130
9:27
colleagues in our transformation team, they're mainly project
9:31
managers business change experts.
9:33
And this team is responsible for transforming our business to be
9:38
fit to serve and to meet that strategy.
9:41
And I fit within Zen's team. And one of my teams is the
9:44
transformation p.m. oh, well, that's a huge undertaking and
9:49
very interested to see, you know, how you hit those amazing
9:52
targets. Let's talk a little bit about
9:55
your portfolio then within the pmo team.
9:57
What are the kinds of projects that tend to sit within your
10:00
portfolio? Are they all about delivering
10:01
fiber or you doing other stuff? As well, no definitely
10:05
definitely other stuff. And so this was again to scale.
10:09
It we've got any one time up to 200 projects, split across six,
10:15
programs in that portfolio. And most of those projects
10:19
involve, some kind of process people and often system changes
10:23
to imagine we're trying to schedule the work of you know,
10:25
over ten thousand Engineers every day.
10:27
That's really quite complex. So a lot of our projects around
10:30
scheduling that work more effectively, we do.
10:33
Sing travel time serving our customers quicker.
10:37
We've kind of dabbled into the world of data science and we've
10:40
got some fantastically clever algorithms to identify those
10:43
customers orders that are most likely to fail based on history.
10:47
So we can intervene early to deliver for our customers.
10:51
A lot of our projects are about automation improving workflows.
10:54
So there's less touch points, less points of failure.
10:57
You know, we really do try and focus on our customers.
10:59
So at the moment, we're doing a lot of work to improve customer.
11:02
Comes through a multitude of. Different channels.
11:06
And if you think about trying to roll out fiber 225 million
11:08
homes, you know but it's an insane infrastructure project.
11:11
I think behind her she has to wear the second biggest
11:13
infrastructure program in the country at the moment, we're
11:17
always out, you know, we're identifying like physical
11:19
tooling, you know, as a project the other day came on my desk
11:22
about jetters, right? My boy, what's this, you know,
11:25
these are things that can resolve blockages in the ground
11:28
that typically historically would have had to dig up the
11:30
road and put traffic Management in place, and all the
11:32
frustration that It comes with that, you know, we've got some
11:35
fantastic technology that can blow the fiber through the pipes
11:38
under the ground for many kilometers.
11:40
So we can build quicker. So it's it's just such a
11:43
fascinating business and, you know, in the last two years I've
11:46
been here, it's kind of really, really blown me away and what
11:50
were what were, what we're doing, Emma.
11:51
So yeah, our team doesn't actually deliver the fiber, we
11:55
deliver improved processes and ways so that the team's rolling
11:58
out, the fiber can do it more, effectively, and quicker.
12:02
That's really fascinating and mostly because most of us like
12:05
to say are consuming this and have no idea what sits behind
12:09
it. It's really really interesting
12:12
in within our Industries where the accepted that pmo's are
12:15
usually created to respond to a particular challenge or
12:18
opportunity. What was the trigger for your
12:21
pmo to be set up? No, absolutely about.
12:24
Well, we can we've seen the vision there, right?
12:26
And why we have to be successful.
12:28
And so it's of my director, Zane was a few months into In his new
12:32
role leading, a transformation delivery when he advertised my
12:35
rule and actually there was an incumbent pmo Emma, when I
12:38
joined the business with some really incredible people in it,
12:41
it just hadn't fully decided what it wanted to be or fully
12:44
defined the services. It was, it was gone up or gone
12:47
on offer and it was kind of existing in an environment
12:50
where, you know, it's I think we all know.
12:51
It's really, really hard to work without clear.
12:54
Executive support, you know, where missions and objectives
12:57
aren't fully defined, you know, and the team had some great
13:00
Frameworks and some Processes. But they weren't embedded the
13:03
word been adopted and weren't being used.
13:05
Therefore, the value wasn't been realized the Lords of governance
13:09
events happening, but there was just such a huge opportunity to
13:12
drive more value from these, you know, simple things.
13:16
I know every project every business suffers from this
13:19
certainly the ones I've worked in, sometimes it can even be as
13:22
best because it's really hard to identify one single list of all
13:25
the projects that were delivering across this massive
13:27
business, you know? And if therefore, for example
13:29
Emerson, once said to me, one another dates on every project,
13:31
Eject, how was impossible because every project delivered
13:34
in its own way with its own life cycle.
13:35
It's on Milestones, you know, and all buried in their own
13:38
project plans to you. You couldn't get that data and
13:40
that insight to drive the decisions.
13:43
You know, this was kind of leading to, you know, a bit of a
13:45
history of projects being delivered late more often than
13:48
we'd like, you know, and leading to disrupted operations, you
13:51
know, we're transforming the way they work.
13:54
But sometimes we were impacting that and so yes, every project
13:57
manager got some brilliant budget managers, but the doll,
14:00
you know, like we all like to do Project manager hats on.
14:02
We like to deliver things in our room where you know without any
14:06
Frameworks you know kind of work it out as you go along.
14:09
But this is a complex business. You've got to work with over 15
14:12
teams on each project because that knowledge wasn't codified.
14:15
You almost had to have been, you know, permits for a few years to
14:18
learn how to deliver projects. So, you know, for me, when I got
14:22
this job, it was just, you know, rather than that being
14:24
overwhelming, which it could have been it was actually just a
14:27
really, really exciting opportunity and a great time to
14:31
join. And getting to work for Zane as
14:32
well. Amazing, I love the concept of
14:35
the tacit knowledge that sits within the business and how so
14:38
many organizations don't take advantage of that and it only
14:42
becomes a problem or opportunity when somebody leaves and that
14:46
knowledge leaves with them. It's it's fascinating the whole
14:49
Knowledge Management piece. So, to drive that, then what
14:52
approach did you use to establish your PML?
14:56
Gosh. Well, I'd had Journey from A, to
14:58
B, as a project in itself, and if I'm honest, We run it as a
15:02
project as well. You kind of can't take the
15:04
project manager out of me. So you know when I first started
15:08
you know we worked really works really hard to understand the
15:10
business to really understand it as is and you know, started to
15:13
carry out maturity assessment as well.
15:16
You know, did a lot of interviews ran quite a lot of
15:19
Retros or Lessons Learned and you know, and and that kind of
15:22
led to basically deciding what we what we were going to be.
15:27
What did this business need to know that every p.m. on these be
15:30
entirely? Aunt and aligned to what that
15:33
business and that company needs. So we kind of worked on what the
15:36
services were. We were going to offer as a pmo,
15:40
you know, we you kind of said at the start of the call as well
15:42
but you know, preach we're also really lucky to win.
15:45
Not look it. But you know it's fantastic that
15:47
we also won the program of the year and and that's a
15:52
partnership program with Accenture.
15:54
So, you know, at that point we were able to build on some great
15:56
MVP work that we've done on that major program with Accenture and
16:00
it that really helped Stakeholder support and buy-in
16:03
as well, which is the key. So, you know, we agree division,
16:07
we agreed the services, which work for this business and then
16:10
I split the execution in two tranches.
16:12
So, you know, we're, we prioritized, first of all, a
16:15
delivery lifecycle framework, it some, getting controls with
16:19
perfected, some strong governance events, and we have
16:22
to improve our financial Benefit Management.
16:26
It took a lot of time. We didn't try and do everything
16:29
with pick those three things but it but it really Added to work
16:32
in our delivery improved benefits were realized and we
16:35
got that all importance. They're called a buy-in, but
16:38
that was only on one of those six programs because I do
16:41
believe don't try and design something and then roll it out
16:44
everywhere, design, something and pilot it, perfect it and
16:48
make sure it works so and so I suppose after that we wanted to
16:52
mature the pmo. So you know, the value was
16:55
proven on that one program or sponsorship from all those key
16:58
stakeholders was in place and we wanted to both widen and Expand
17:02
the pmo, so offer more services and also roll it out tomorrow.
17:06
If there are more of those programs.
17:09
And so our priority action was maturing our delivery lifecycle
17:12
codify in, even more knowledge, Emma into one place.
17:15
You know, we're introduced some strategic tooling at this point.
17:18
We felt we were mature enough to introduce tooling to drive date
17:21
control and able reporting Automation, and, and bolster our
17:26
risk management processes. This also meant was as a pmo
17:30
team could do more with the same amount.
17:31
Out of people because we were automating a lot of the work I
17:36
think in parallel at all times, I kept regular reflecting on my
17:41
my perceptions of pmo's of old and the biggest frustrations
17:44
that I had, and so in parallel, in our, we as a pmo team really
17:49
focused on the culture in our team and I want I want this pmo
17:53
to be there to Champion successful role.
17:56
So if a project fails we have failed, right?
17:59
Will stand up there. We failed you But if the project
18:02
succeeds, they are celebrated, they get the praise and it's
18:06
it's really different behaviors. So, that to what the team had
18:09
previously been used to working within our don't want
18:12
finger-pointing, don't want to be trying to catch people out.
18:15
Don't want to be like, trying to prove people wrong.
18:18
It's not about that. We're there to enable the
18:21
success. And so if, you know, if you
18:23
fail, we fail, if you succeed well done, you've done an
18:26
awesome job. So, you know, again that the
18:29
cultural bit I think has been a big part of Of of why we've
18:32
landed and been successful. So, you know, we piloted this
18:35
full pmo offering across two programs and we continue to
18:39
reiterate it, right? We took another number of months
18:43
to get it fully working. We ran a lot of feedback loops
18:47
and I've really tried to actively create a safe
18:50
environment to tell us what what wasn't working on the ground.
18:52
And, you know, we introduced a lot of gamification trying to
18:56
get people to adopt these new ways of working through fun
18:59
little are competitions and Prizes and things like that.
19:03
And, you know, I spent a lot of my time traveling.
19:05
The country actually doing really interactive training
19:07
sessions, you know, to support the rule out because we can, you
19:11
know, we you need a pmo capability, has to be at the
19:14
level to adopt this and to be successful.
19:17
So there's a lot of coaching and training and working with our
19:19
fabulous p.m. teams as well at this point.
19:23
Suppose suppose, you know, we started small with matured it
19:26
and then it was all about scaling it making sure that we
19:29
you know once the the not only the ways of working were tested
19:32
and proven actually the way that you successfully rule it out was
19:36
proven through the challenges we've had, and we scaled it to
19:39
all six programs across the full portfolio.
19:42
So that's kind of where we find ourselves today but you know, if
19:46
we kind of think that's the end of the story and you know that
19:49
that then would be wrong because the jobs never done, right.
19:52
But The pmo adapts. It changes and we must remain
19:55
relevant and valuable. So you know, we've always got a
19:58
roadmap. What's next?
19:59
What's the next thing we want to introduce?
20:01
What's the next thing we could, you know, make easier.
20:03
So yeah, lots of lots of exciting work to get to this
20:07
point, but you know, we definitely look forward with
20:09
what's next at all times as well, just irrelevant.
20:13
It's a fascinating and really inspiring journey and I think it
20:16
will be really good for other pmo professionals to hear it.
20:20
I remember I was involved in designing the pmo award with the
20:24
APM and what are the key things that we were really focusing in
20:28
on his legacy? And I think that's one of the
20:30
things that often gets missed, is like, when you move on to
20:33
something new and shiny, what do you leave behind, or is it
20:37
something amazing? Or is it something that because
20:39
you're driving it, it kind of Starts to wither away over time
20:45
and I think that's really impressive.
20:47
And one of the things that for me it's really important that
20:50
you've done and that's really focused on what do we need for
20:53
now. But getting into that
20:54
scalability and that Evolution to kind of really leave a
20:58
cultural Legacy about what you guys are doing.
21:00
So really well done for that and bedding and sustaining a project
21:04
is the hardest part of any project.
21:06
It's no different. This is a project in itself.
21:08
Isn't Amino embedding this way of working.
21:10
It has to embed and sustained. Enough for the future.
21:14
So, no, I couldn't couldn't agree.
21:15
More did you also find the question?
21:17
I get asked the most of all, I don't know if you do Emma.
21:19
But how do I start? Where do I start?
21:22
What do I do that? That's kind of the most common
21:24
question I get asked. Yeah, definitely.
21:27
I think that, you know, though, I wrote something on LinkedIn or
21:30
that long ago with that you know a few different tips on these
21:33
are the first things that you need to be doing and for me they
21:37
include firstly. No, the organization you can't
21:40
lift and shift a pmo. You need to And exactly what you
21:43
mentioned. What is the service?
21:45
What are the services that are relevant that are appropriate to
21:48
your organization? Reality also know your strengths
21:53
and your weaknesses within yourself and your team.
21:56
We do tend to find that pmo's get set up by maybe one or two
21:59
people and it's because they're there and they're available.
22:02
A lot of the time. They don't necessarily have the
22:05
experience and pmo, they have experience in delivery and that
22:08
can be really challenging because then we are setting
22:12
something up. Up because of our own experience
22:15
or not really looking at our internal customers.
22:17
You know, for me, the pmo is a service provider just like it.
22:20
We have a bunch of internal customers.
22:22
They consume our services and I think that's that's really
22:25
important. And that's where the Legacy
22:28
starts to come into play. It's much bigger than the
22:31
process and the lifecycle and the templates in the tools which
22:34
we need and are very tactical and absolutely add value, but
22:39
it's taking it to that next level.
22:40
I think that's what you guys have definitely managed to do.
22:42
Do now you've talked a little bit about people and the
22:48
Fantastic Team that you work with people for me are the most
22:50
important part of pmo. I always talk about a human
22:53
first approach, you know, speak to the humans before you speak
22:56
to the pmo people. So how do you manage the
22:59
competency of your pmo team? How do you upskill cross skill?
23:04
And make sure that your guys are staying motivated and ahead of
23:07
the Curve. I'll be honest, our team is not
23:11
typical of a pmo. We've got a real diverse team
23:14
with a mix of skills and experiences.
23:17
So some of the people in RPM or we've delivered projects to
23:21
customers internally and externally which is great.
23:23
Right. Have been a project manager.
23:25
Well, those have kind of seen the evolution of this p.m. our
23:27
role in up and reach over several years, sort of the
23:31
beading pmo for quite some time. Some of our people are actually
23:34
from operations. So they've come from the
23:36
operational side of the business and then, Might start with
23:39
little or even no, pmo experience, but they personally
23:42
have first-hand knowledge of how our business works.
23:45
And they also know how it feels to receive the changes that we
23:48
rule out in our projects. So to me they bring SME
23:52
knowledge which is just critical for us to be different, you
23:56
know? Because they understand that
23:57
perspective, it means we can really put the customers first.
24:01
We can do better Assurance bake make better recommendations
24:04
because we know the business more.
24:07
And, and my deputy sheriff said, to me the other day and I've
24:11
built a really nice team, haven't where and, and it sounds
24:14
really cheesy to say it. But it is certainly genuinely
24:17
the happiest most contented team that I've worked in.
24:20
And it's been about finding the right mix of skills but also
24:24
personalities. And at the moment, you know,
24:27
we're seeing in industry and really, really high churn, you
24:29
know, all over the place. But if I'm honest, I'm just, I'm
24:32
actually proud that we've been stable for over a year now.
24:35
You know, the team want to be here, they want.
24:37
To say they know our purpose. They know how we fit in there.
24:42
Know, why were critical? And I think at times P MOS teams
24:47
don't always do always feel that So we have daily stand-ups,
24:53
where we have two groups of work that we go through.
24:55
So one is what I call BAU. And the other is, is evolved.
24:59
And let's be honest, people have a bias, some people like to do
25:03
the jobs where they know what they're doing, where the turning
25:05
the handle, and they're running the reports and running the
25:07
health checks and running the government's and chasing up
25:09
actions. You know, so people really do
25:11
have a bias and a preference. So you know, some people prefer
25:15
the BAU, Some people prefer working in the evolved side.
25:18
What's next? What's coming up next?
25:20
What's the next new thing we need to do?
25:22
What's the next bit of business Assurance?
25:23
You want to introduce our make better.
25:25
So we give people the opportunity to have a preference
25:28
but we do get everybody involved in both.
25:30
So even those people that prefer to turn the handle are always
25:33
learning new things and being challenged and I think you know
25:35
that that brings a real satisfaction that I hope to the
25:38
team. And I think we can't forget that
25:42
we've operated and I started this job, we're in covered and I
25:47
think we're probably a year into covid at the time now is the
25:49
ping-pong of The office out of the office and it's been really
25:53
tough to convince people to return to the office.
25:55
You know, we do operate a hybrid model here at upper each which
25:59
is great and provides, great flexibility.
26:01
But you can't force people to come back into the office or for
26:05
me, it's about being trying to make it compelling so that
26:09
people want to come back in. So when we do ever get together
26:11
as a team, everyone just feels like they're buzzing they're
26:14
energized and I think you know our learning and our progress
26:17
really solves by working first the first.
26:19
So I'm always trying to To build on that momentum and and use the
26:23
enablers that we have as well. So, you know, like most
26:25
corporate companies were allowed, a few volunteering days
26:29
a year. You know, was a full team.
26:32
We've got together doing footpath, lay in this last year
26:35
or half the team, a few months ago up into the food bank, in
26:37
leads the other half, did some gardening at grenfell, you know,
26:41
we're had a lot of fun nights out as well.
26:43
And so I think we just got a really nice environment and what
26:46
we try and do fun things together to build those
26:49
connections as a team. But, you know, we do hold
26:52
ourselves to very, very high standards.
26:56
And I was asking my team, one of my team near the dead kind of
26:58
reflect on this question. And they just said, you know, no
27:01
one ever takes anything. Personally, we all believe in
27:04
continuous Improvement and we just want to help each other.
27:07
We do not want to bring each other down.
27:08
It's just a really positive, uplifting culture in the team,
27:12
but it took a long time, right? To get better and bring it.
27:15
Bring in some people in Yes, the people side I think is really
27:21
important and I think it's great that you've you've really taken
27:24
what's available to you, like you say like the volunteer
27:26
volunteer and days, I know that that kind of work becomes really
27:31
important to bring the team together and to be doing
27:34
something different. So I organized every year, a
27:37
project management Day of Service, where we get people
27:39
from industry to come and give pro bono support for a date, too
27:44
small to medium-sized Charities and it, you know it starts off.
27:48
As something nice to do. And actually, then very quickly
27:50
become as one of the most important thing that the team
27:52
does is to actually give something back from our
27:55
industry. So it's, I think that's really,
27:58
really good thing that you've done.
28:00
And you've mentioned it, briefly around, you know, what makes
28:03
your pmo unique and different and you talked about skill, sets
28:08
or pmo's a different. That's why I love my job.
28:10
Every pmo I speak to is is a different conversation outside
28:15
of skill sets. Is there anything else that you
28:16
say you would you think? Think would make sure your pmo
28:19
interesting different successful that people might be able to
28:23
take away? You wouldn't believe it today
28:26
with how much I'm talking, but I generally, I'm a, they'll be a
28:30
lot of people smoking now when I say this, that, that know me,
28:32
but I'm a real fan of succinctness and brevity, you
28:35
know, we are often surrounded by people who make things complex,
28:38
say a thousand words when 50 would do and kind of cause
28:42
confusion or distraction, with too much detail and and our goal
28:45
as a team is to always be simple and straightforward.
28:49
And I think, you know, I want us to be trusted if we say we'll do
28:51
something, we always do it. And to me, Me and I like, I we
28:55
have a monster action tracker in the team from every meeting
28:58
every piece of governance. Every action we ever get as a
29:00
team goes in that tracker. So, you know, we make sure we
29:03
follow through on everything to make sure that we build that
29:06
trust and that's made a big difference, because often you
29:08
sit in events, people say, they'll do something.
29:10
You never hear from them. Again will always go back and
29:13
make sure that we do it. I think our intranet is kind of
29:17
a real amazing tool that we've introduced.
29:20
We kind of get thousands of hits a month, sounds really obvious
29:23
but it just It just has everything in one place, really
29:26
clear guidance for everybody to support the successful delivery
29:29
of our transformation agenda. And I think the main difference
29:35
though, is our world. Why why why?
29:38
You know it's the why we really try.
29:42
Never to tell anyone to do something.
29:45
We spend time explaining the, why this is this is actually
29:48
been a huge focus on the team's development as well on that
29:51
culture that we had a whole two day workshop dedicated to why,
29:55
maybe if I try and bring it to life with a couple of examples.
29:58
So, you know, within we have to govern and many business
30:02
insurance activities. So we're a really highly
30:04
regulated industry and that brings lots of checks, you know,
30:07
heavily unionized need lots of Union engagement, but you know,
30:11
a real critical area, critical Assurance area for us is safety
30:14
safety first every time in this business, if you think about it,
30:18
every single change, every single project, we deliver has
30:22
the potential to impact the safety of our colleagues.
30:25
So, historically every project with a gauge, the health and
30:28
safety team contacts themselves to imagine 200.
30:31
Doing this ad hoc it was an industry in itself so you know,
30:35
it really, really basic thing we've done but we just centrally
30:38
govern and funnel all projects into the right.
30:42
Kind of health and safety Forum at the right time and you re use
30:46
one of your existing artifacts and you pop along for two
30:49
minutes. There's no work, no prep, bring
30:52
something you already have and just pop into this meeting for
30:55
two minutes and get the tick in the Box.
30:57
Because if your project, just something that in just someone
31:00
just just imagine that Guys, right, imagine the impact.
31:02
So we just literally as they're all, you know, so I don't have
31:05
time. Why do I need to do this?
31:07
We try and explain if they don't do this, what could happen and
31:10
all we want is two minutes and we've really made it as easy as
31:12
we possibly can. The other thing, we get a lot of
31:16
pushback and wide for. Did you know, when we first
31:17
introduced it? Why do we have to use this
31:19
system to put my status updates in guys, give us four bits of
31:22
information, once a week will reuse that in three different
31:25
governance event. You don't have to go into three
31:27
PowerPoint decks, you can, you know, leave us to do all the
31:31
donkey work. And that gives you more time to
31:32
deliver not be preparing governance events.
31:35
So it's all about the why and try, you know, we've tried to
31:38
design things to be as streamlined as possible as well,
31:41
so everything is don't do this. You know, if there's any
31:43
pushback, it's just give me a couple of minutes.
31:45
Let me just explain why this matters and and people don't
31:48
always agree, right? And, and genuinely will listen.
31:52
So, we've got a feedback loop on every email on every template
31:55
and actually, I sometimes go out.
31:57
I don't know why, but you know, actively trying to find things
31:59
to improve even further. So I do Do you know?
32:01
Run quite a lot of Retros across the program's gather feedback
32:05
and if something goes wrong or a project fails or something
32:08
didn't happen as it should, we'll get to the root cause and
32:12
then we could if I that learning into our framework and our
32:15
templates immediately. So we learn from that so that
32:19
every other project coming up behind a standards, has it built
32:21
into their framework that that takes real discipline and to do
32:26
that. But you know we set we set the
32:28
standards High, we do what we say we will and I think that's
32:30
kind of built. The respect and the trust and
32:33
they all kind of come back to. If they fail we failed if they
32:37
succeed, they get the prayers so and so.
32:41
Yeah, it's about the, why? And about listening.
32:44
Yeah, amazing. The spend a lot of time talking
32:46
to people about, why? Because if you can't articulate
32:50
it, no one else is going to be able to articulate it outlined
32:53
or understand why you're there. So I think that's really
32:55
important and and you know, value and perception is so
32:58
important in that and you know, we always say beauty.
33:01
Your values and eye of the beholder.
33:04
What do you think are the benefits that your customers
33:07
perceive from your pmo into the organization?
33:11
How do you change their day-to-day?
33:13
So yes, our p.m. I was helped us be more
33:16
predictable in the delivery of our projects and programs, you
33:20
know, and I'm a massive fan of tangibly measuring these
33:23
outcomes as well. So what, you know, our on-time
33:25
delivery has dramatically improved over the last year, and
33:30
we run Checked Health scores and these are trending in the right
33:34
direction. But again, this actually isn't
33:36
to call out and do performance is actually if I'm honest to
33:39
identify those project managers who might need extra support and
33:41
coaching. So it's, you know, it's got a
33:44
dual purpose as those kind of scores.
33:46
So to help people but make sure that our projects are healthier
33:49
than what they were. And as a business, as every
33:53
business, we've got to reduce our cost base both for a
33:56
longevity but also to invest back into that once in a
34:00
generational Information that were leading to go for fiber.
34:04
So benefits management, cost control is a big part of our of
34:08
how we measure our success. And last year, we actually did
34:11
our Target by by 15% which was can't go into numbers but as a
34:15
phenomenal amount of reduction in the cost base and I think to
34:21
me, people only go to governance consistently if it's good.
34:27
I don't know how many meetings in my diary.
34:28
I don't go to anymore because it's just not good governance.
34:31
Not Use of my time isn't driving value and I think the most you
34:35
know we have a lot of governance but I'm most valuable part of
34:38
our governance is I gating board.
34:42
You know people come to that consistently because you know
34:46
with could if I had years of knowledge into a framework and
34:48
all were doing is making sure the right deliverables have been
34:51
created at the right time that the right people have reviewed
34:54
and approved them. So that we're engaging our
34:56
stakeholders, we go through all of the learning from recent
35:00
projects and make sure we're not Making the same mistakes or
35:03
anything that went particularly well that were building that
35:05
learning in. And we make sure that because
35:08
every single metrics, team attends that every project has
35:11
all the people they need to deliver the next phase.
35:14
It all sounds really common sense, but if you get to the
35:16
root cause of why projects go wrong, it's because we're not
35:19
engaging the right stakeholders at the right time I were missing
35:21
just one or two important people out or we're not interlocking
35:24
with the teams that deliver the projects.
35:26
So you know are getting boards. Probably, you know, the fact
35:31
Comes to them and that is the big event of the week is
35:34
something I'm really proud about and you know Alex Grace and when
35:37
I had my a hugely recently dropped a note to the team
35:40
saying it was the best gating he'd ever seen.
35:42
Which was, you know, just just a phenomenal.
35:46
So yeah and I hope if I'm honest but the two are p.m.
35:49
Awards as well and you know sure that we're doing something
35:52
right. But for me why that is important
35:54
is we have wants to attract Talent into the team because at
35:58
the end of the day it's about people and you know, So if
36:01
people can kind of get excited and see how we work and want to
36:05
join our team that that for me is great as well.
36:09
That's really old sounds brilliantly.
36:11
Positive. What about challenges though?
36:14
Let's flip the coin. What are the main challenges
36:16
that your pmo faces? We can always focus on the
36:21
positive cat. We are where we got to, but
36:23
goodness me. This has been a journey.
36:25
I have a few more grey hairs and I did two years ago and I took
36:28
this job. And I think the challenges that
36:30
we faced and no different to the ones that any other p.m. office
36:34
is when I speak to two colleagues from other
36:36
businesses, but now the first one was that Policeman right?
36:40
It's really really tough to change the behaviors of some of
36:44
the incumbent pmo colleagues. It was about demoing the
36:47
behaviors. And for me it was actually about
36:49
being vulnerable and showing them that if something did fail,
36:53
there was no kind of comeback on them.
36:55
You know, and and really try to build trust in the team.
36:59
And, and by showing the value, by doing things differently,
37:01
I'll be honest. You know, most people jumped on
37:03
board and then it was all about a mix of headhunting.
37:07
So some people I've worked with in These businesses at chose to
37:11
come and join me, which is just phenomenal.
37:12
When people kind of choose to come and work with you again,
37:15
you know, we did rotate some colleagues, and we did a lot of
37:19
coaching, but that's led us to that.
37:21
Collaborative, helpful value-adding team that, you
37:24
know, has helped the business business successful.
37:27
And I think the W are often easy and appear Montana.
37:30
We keep saying it, but it's how you do it.
37:31
That's the key here. So the first one was changing,
37:34
the behaviors of the pmo, but outside of the team, you know, I
37:39
was going around the country, working with the project
37:41
managers for me. I actually just told my story.
37:45
So, you know, I'd stand up in my god.
37:47
I've been, you know, I resonated with them about those
37:50
perceptions and the challenges that they had, and I kind of
37:53
told them that I needed their help to build something that's
37:56
different. And to build a culture where the
37:59
pmo shows, Runner ability and creates a safe space for a
38:02
feedback. You know, again, you fail.
38:04
We fail, you succeed. Well done.
38:06
So it was it was all about getting the truth.
38:09
Stand, the respect of the project managers and building
38:12
those relationships at all levels from the, you know, the
38:14
program directors right down to the the more Junior project
38:17
managers we've had. So, you know, I know all of them
38:20
spent time with all of them and and resonated with them that
38:22
hope has helped build that trust.
38:25
And I think the next challenge we had is the Matrix
38:29
organization we working. So anyone here working for a big
38:32
company will also operate in a complex Matrix team.
38:36
You know we've got it teams data, aha.
38:39
HR operations themselves, change teams, etc, etc, etc.
38:44
And those teams need to come together at the right time on
38:47
every project. So, if I give you an idea of the
38:49
scale of the challenge, 15 different metrics teams, all
38:53
need to come together at the right point on 200 projects,
38:57
that's 3,000 individual engagements all happening.
39:03
Independently. So we worked with every single
39:07
team to contract on their services, what could we expect
39:11
from them? A standard and kind of agreed.
39:14
Best practice templates and we streamlined and agreed, you
39:17
know, engagement mechanics, you know, front doors.
39:21
And finally we then built that into our delivery framework to
39:25
give really clear guidance and assurance that that was
39:27
happening. So you know really try to give
39:30
give the PM's time to manage the projects not trying to work out.
39:34
Who should do this bit, who should do that bit?
39:35
How do I get in touch with them? Well, is that good?
39:37
Is that what good looks like? I've got no idea.
39:39
I've never worked with them before.
39:40
So a lot of our effort went into the Matrix organization and
39:44
getting all of that contracted And stood up so that was another
39:48
challenge and definitely an area think you know bigger businesses
39:51
you need to focus on. Are you won't be successful?
39:55
I think we can't pretend right? That change reluctance.
39:59
Are we call it change fatigue. You know, we're not transforming
40:03
a stable business, but one that's transforming and growing
40:07
rapidly and there's a lot of change hitting the teams.
40:11
So the teams are out there trying to do their jobs, trying
40:13
to serve our customers fantastically and, and, you
40:15
know, we got feedback that they were fill out every week or
40:17
every day, there was another change coming and it kind of led
40:20
to fatigue. So, you know, we've had to do a
40:23
lot of work to prioritize and group.
40:26
Our new ways of working on the, to arrive release Cycles.
40:29
We don't drop to them every day, or every week, we may be
40:31
dropped. And less frequently but in a
40:33
more controlled way. So they're actually ready to
40:36
consume and absorb it be properly trained you know in
40:38
different things at the same time so they can work in those
40:41
new ways. So you know, we often forget Ops
40:45
forget how it feels to be constantly receiving change.
40:48
So we really pivoted and focused on that.
40:54
I think if I didn't bring this one up, it would be, it wouldn't
40:58
be good, but this is something. I know that all pmo's struggle
41:01
with it will only work if our project managers adopt the new
41:07
ways of working, you know, and I project managers are so busy
41:10
delivering projects that at times.
41:12
They know they were almost quite reluctant themselves to receive
41:15
that change. You know, I don't need to work
41:16
to a standardized way of working.
41:18
Don't need you to give me these new templates, I know what I'm
41:21
doing. That was a pretty A tough one to
41:24
crack. And if I kind of fast forward
41:25
through lots of different solutions in attempts, we
41:28
ultimately brought those stakeholders into our gold user
41:32
group, we create a framework and give it to them.
41:35
These gold users were empowered to co-create the framework with
41:39
us. So they then helped us test it.
41:42
They helped us improve it. And then they became coaches for
41:45
are less experienced p.m. so, actually, they felt they owned
41:48
it. They felt it was their
41:49
framework, helping them do a better job.
41:52
Not something that p.m. I was In the Muse.
41:54
So you had always really championed cook creating and
41:59
sometimes those people that are very loud or very obnoxious, or
42:02
the ones that are the real blockers, get them inside, find
42:06
a way to bring them on the inside and put them in those
42:08
user groups, if you can, because then they'll be loud on the
42:11
shouting about what you're doing as well and getting that buy-in.
42:15
Now one destroys what one helps to build.
42:18
There we go. There we go.
42:20
And I think this was not my last one, so I could go on all day,
42:22
but it's For me, it's about the hero mentality.
42:27
I don't know about other people, but in all the businesses I've
42:30
worked in, I find that some people thrive on chaos, people
42:35
love saving the day. They love it.
42:37
When something goes wrong, you know, because they can fix it.
42:40
And sometimes as businesses, we reward those Heroes who saved
42:43
the day, we put them on a pedestal, you know it.
42:46
Oh my God. You've done amazing.
42:48
You've solved. This massive problem.
42:50
And that is brilliant. We need those people in every
42:52
business. But actually, sometimes I think
42:54
we forget to focus on the teams who are just doing the right
42:58
thing every time, so it doesn't go wrong and doesn't need fixing
43:03
now, behavioral change is really tough but really we've tried to
43:07
Pivot to celebrating the successes of people doing the
43:10
right thing every time, not focusing on the heroes after
43:14
something has broken. And it's that switch from
43:16
reacting to things to being proactive.
43:19
So, that's a big one that, you know, hopefully gives people a
43:22
bit of food for thought To see if that's something that they do
43:24
in their businesses. But who are those silent people?
43:27
Just doing it perfectly every time we shout them out.
43:31
Yeah, that's really cool. And um, and all kind of
43:34
professional social media. My my name if you like, is pmo
43:38
ninjas and I've always said that that a good pmo actually is like
43:42
a ninja sitting in the background playing in the
43:45
shadows making everybody else look good.
43:49
So yeah I can totally relate to that that and For me that's one
43:54
of the that's one of the switches that I've seen in the
43:56
industry from pmo's kind of sitting in their Ivory Tower
43:59
saying I'm the pmo. So people will do what I say to
44:03
that much more of a servant leader approach and kind of
44:06
being more willing to sit in the background and make sure that
44:09
we're enabling everything else to happen around as and not feel
44:12
like we have to get the praise every time.
44:15
I think that that's definitely an industry shift that I've seen
44:17
since I've been involved. So having said all of that,
44:23
what? Advice.
44:23
Do you have for pmos if they want to remain current people
44:27
that might be listening to? This might be like, oh, that all
44:29
sounds great. But I'd like to some practical
44:32
advice, please. What would your advice be?
44:36
Maybe not the advice you were expecting but this is advice and
44:41
I've given myself recently, so, you know, winning the RPM of the
44:44
Year. Award is actually really made me
44:46
wake up if I'm honest. And, you know, sometimes I sit
44:50
within a bit of an internal Cocoon of Upper Egypt and before
44:53
that, you know, in my last transformation role and I
44:57
stopped working with external customers three or four years
45:00
ago. And and actually winning the
45:03
award. It's opened up so many doors.
45:05
So this interview, Emma speaking to you, you know that the house
45:07
appear more conference and that I'm going to do and you're
45:11
willing to learn conference later in the year.
45:13
And you know I've received a few Network and invites and online
45:16
courses. I've been asked to go on our to
45:18
come to talk to people and actually met fifteen PM, or
45:21
colleagues from other companies on a PVP or training class last
45:24
week and every one of these engagements as has taught me,
45:28
something and it's given me ideas or Food for thought.
45:32
So, rather than like, my roadmap is, what I think we need to do
45:35
next. And by Network, and it's given
45:38
me so many more ideas. I don't even have time to kind
45:41
of collect them and think, what I'm going to do with them.
45:43
But for me, it's all about networking listening to other
45:45
people, talking to other people and, you know, not thinking.
45:49
I know, I know everything. So yeah.
45:52
My advice honestly, is to network.
45:54
There's a World opened up for me.
45:56
I did not know, was there in pmo and, and it's just, it's just
46:01
I'm brilliant. There, just isn't enough days in
46:03
hours in the day or two to get involved with everything that
46:05
I'd like to. So, yeah.
46:06
Just Network. I think just share experiences.
46:08
That's how you learn best, but back to that work-life balance,
46:12
right from the start with goes all the way around.
46:16
So, last question, if you had a time machine and you could go
46:18
back in time and give yourself some advice before you started
46:22
your pmo journey, what would that advice be I think if we
46:27
peel back the layers of the onion, ultimately it all boils
46:31
down to sponsorship. Does not how great you are, what
46:34
you do. A good sponsor will make or
46:37
break whether you are successful.
46:40
And to me there's a little bit about Gutfeld involved with
46:43
this. I think we can often be driven
46:49
by Peoples words but to me words tell you what they want you to
46:53
think and actions tell you what they actually think.
46:56
So take the time ask around and find the right fit for you and
47:02
where you think you could make the biggest difference and
47:05
therefore be the happiest. So spend time making sure that
47:08
you've got that sponsorship before you take any any new
47:12
rule. I think the second bit of
47:17
advice, I'd give myself and if I'm honest I probably need to do
47:20
this a little bit more because I think when we introduced
47:22
ourselves to each other and we both said, oh I'm a project
47:24
manager and a project manager like I should be a little bit
47:27
more proud to be pmo because if I don't Champion what we do, no
47:31
one else will. So you know, I think in our job,
47:34
we often focus on the negatives, the things that have gone wrong
47:37
and we can apply that to ourselves sometimes and say, oh
47:41
we're not good enough, we need to be better but no, I think we
47:44
should try. And they really, really proud to
47:46
be a pmo to be a modern ninja as you call it, Emma, and and
47:49
Champion ourselves so that then we're help to change the
47:52
perception. Otherwise we're never going to
47:53
do that. But ultimately to look after
47:58
yourself, you need to get a good Mentor.
48:00
You need to get a good support network, surround yourself with
48:05
brilliant coaches. This is not the easiest job, you
48:09
need resilience, right? And I'm good at what I do
48:13
because I care But when you care about something, it can be
48:16
really, really hard to take the knocks.
48:19
You know, and I really personally struggle with this.
48:21
And and that's the part. I've got, I've got two brilliant
48:25
mentors, a couple of coaches, and I'm just surrounded by
48:27
phenomenal people. I've worked with over the years.
48:30
That's the part keeps me going. So then I can can in turn keep
48:33
my team going. So, always surround yourself
48:36
with with good people and so that, so that you can look after
48:41
your team and be successful. I think that's that is amazing
48:45
advice that if we could all go back in time would serve most of
48:49
us at some point in our careers, for sure.
48:52
Well, one last thing to say and that's thank you Katherine, for
48:55
taking the time to support the pmo Sig and the APM podcast,
48:59
helping us reach out to our members.
49:01
So they're able to really learn from your experience relate to
49:04
the reality of pmo. The good, the bad, the ugly, as
49:09
well as the amazing winds that you guys have had.
49:11
So to finish, I will say if you want to know more about the pmo
49:15
specific interest group, you can search for a PM PM o Sig on the
49:18
web on LinkedIn or on Twitter or you can contact me directly by
49:22
searching for pmo ninjas. Thank you for listening.
49:30
Thanks to Emma Ruth and Catherine for taking time out to
49:33
join the APM podcast for this discussion and thanks to you for
49:36
listening. For more information on open,
49:39
reaches p.m. Oh, look out for the spring
49:41
edition of apm's project Journal out in March, which includes a
49:45
feature on Project professionals as changemakers.
49:49
If you've got any comments feedback or suggestions please
49:52
do get in touch. If you're listening on Spotify,
49:55
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