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Representation and writing magical stories with Jasmin McGaughey · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  Speaker 3: The Book Deal Podcast Where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
• 0:15
  Speaker 4: We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals, to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.
• 0:25
  Speaker 5: So no matter what stage of writing you're at, we've got you covered.
• 0:29
  Speaker 5: I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: I'm Madeleine Cleary.
• 0:32
  Speaker 4: And I'm Natasha Rai.
• 0:34
  Speaker 5: And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors.
• 0:37
  Speaker 6: One deal at a time.
• 0:43
  Speaker 6: The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters which it's recorded on, and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:56
  Speaker: Jasmine McGaughey is a Torres Strait Islander and African American writer and editor.
• 1:01
  Speaker: She is the author of Ash Bhatti's collection of children's books illustrated by Jade Goodwin and Mary Fowler's children's books illustrated by Kate James.
• 1:11
  Speaker: Jasmine is a Black and Write editor alum and has written for Overland, Kill Your Darlings, SBS Voices, and Griffith Review, and co-edited Words to Sing the World Alive.
• 1:22
  Speaker: Her debut YA book, Moonlight and Dust, was shortlisted for the 2025 VPLAs
• 1:34
  Natasha Rai: Hey, Jasmine.
• 1:34
  Natasha Rai: Welcome to The Book Deal.
• 1:36
  Jasmin McGaughey: Uh, hi.
• 1:37
  Jasmin McGaughey: Thank you for having me.
• 1:38
  Natasha Rai: My pleasure.
• 1:39
  Natasha Rai: Um, so if you're a regular listener or not, we always ask our guests to give us their elevator pitch.
• 1:44
  Natasha Rai: So could I please have your elevator pitch for Moonlight and Dust?
• 1:49
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yes, okay.
• 1:51
  Jasmin McGaughey: It's been a while, but let me have a go.
• 1:54
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, Moonlight and Dust is a young adult speculative fiction novel that centers around, um, a protagonist called Zillah.
• 2:02
  Jasmin McGaughey: Zillah's 16.
• 2:03
  Jasmin McGaughey: She's a Torres Strait Islander girl who has spent most of her schooling life in Brisbane at boarding school, and is returning to Cairns to attend the high school where her big sister goes.
• 2:13
  Jasmin McGaughey: But at the very start of her story, something happens to her sister which puts her in hospital, and Zillah has to go to the school by herself, and she stumbles across this stuff called, um, moon dust, and moon dust gives kids magical powers just for the weekend.
• 2:30
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, and Zillah has to figure out if it's a good thing, if it's a bad thing, and if it is connected to what happened to her big sister.
• 2:38
  Jasmin McGaughey: How's that?
• 2:38
  Jasmin McGaughey: Excellent
• 2:38
  Natasha Rai: pitch.
• 2:40
  Jasmin McGaughey: Okay.
• 2:40
  Jasmin McGaughey: That
• 2:40
  Natasha Rai: was good
• 2:42
  Jasmin McGaughey: It's, it's, it's like been like so long now that I kind of forget certain- Yes I mean, it hasn't been that long.
• 2:47
  Jasmin McGaughey: It's been a year since it came out.
• 2:49
  Natasha Rai: And- Yeah,'cause it came out last year, right?
• 2:51
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 2:51
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah Around this time last year.
• 2:53
  Jasmin McGaughey: And like I, you know, get things mixed up of like, so Moondust used to be called Fairy Dust, and just like- Oh little things like that, and I've just forgotten or mixed up the order of when I thought of, thought them up.
• 3:06
  Jasmin McGaughey: No,
• 3:07
  Natasha Rai: no, I, I get it, because i- interestingly enough, uh, Madeleine and Tina, my co-hosts, we were just talking about this in our group chat.
• 3:14
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm-hmm.
• 3:14
  Natasha Rai: Like, um, she had to do a pitch recent- like an elevator pitch for her novel, but The Butterfly Women, she's like,"I couldn't remember." And then I remember I did this pitch for Onslaught, and I was- Yeah I just said this two lines, and I, I made it sound so lame and boring.
• 3:27
  Natasha Rai: I was like- No.
• 3:28
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, because I'd totally forgotten.
• 3:30
  Natasha Rai: Like, I was like I've-
• 3:31
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah
• 3:32
  Natasha Rai: I've forgotten how to do it now, but that was very good.
• 3:34
  Jasmin McGaughey: Oh, cool.
• 3:35
  Jasmin McGaughey: Thank you.
• 3:36
  Natasha Rai: Um, so when did you start writing it?
• 3:39
  Jasmin McGaughey: Ugh, I started writing it a little while ago.
• 3:43
  Jasmin McGaughey: So it was part of my, um...
• 3:44
  Jasmin McGaughey: I did a master of creative writing, and it was the like 40,000-word novella.
• 3:50
  Jasmin McGaughey: Before that though, it was actually a short story.
• 3:52
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, uh, what was the book called?
• 3:55
  Jasmin McGaughey: Speculative Futures, I think.
• 3:58
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, and yeah, it was a short story, and I was kind of like responding to the question I gave myself of like, what would an island girl do if she was in twilight, and got a boyfriend who was like a vampire or like a superhero?
• 4:14
  Jasmin McGaughey: 'Cause I also loved Smallville when I was a teenager, Smallville and Twilight.
• 4:18
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, and in my mind, the island girl would break up with him because she would not wanna keep the secret from her family.
• 4:25
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, and so that's kind of the central theme of the book.
• 4:29
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 4:29
  Natasha Rai: And
• 4:29
  Jasmin McGaughey: developed it into a novella, and then a novel after I finished, um,
• 4:33
  Natasha Rai: uni.
• 4:34
  Natasha Rai: That is such a great question.
• 4:36
  Natasha Rai: That really is.
• 4:37
  Natasha Rai: A- um, so- Was it difficult to kind of draw it out from a short story to novella to...
• 4:44
  Natasha Rai: 'Cause it is a, I guess, full-length novel now, right?
• 4:47
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 4:47
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 4:48
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, in a way.
• 4:50
  Jasmin McGaughey: Like, I...
• 4:52
  Jasmin McGaughey: Have you done, like, w- creative writing in academia, like in research or whatever?
• 4:56
  Jasmin McGaughey: You- No, I
• 4:57
  Natasha Rai: haven't.
• 4:58
  Jasmin McGaughey: No did.
• 4:58
  Jasmin McGaughey: It's like, I mean, I only did the master's.
• 5:00
  Jasmin McGaughey: I haven't done a PhD or anything, but, like, I didn't love the process.
• 5:05
  Jasmin McGaughey: Like, I had great support, lovely supervisors, but it was really difficult because I was...
• 5:12
  Jasmin McGaughey: My research question was kind of around the whole, like, how to write Torres Strait Islanders specifically into sci-fi and fantasy, into speculative fiction, and I was really, really struggling because there were no, um, instances of traditionally published Torres Strait Islander books that had fantasy and sci-fi, right?
• 5:31
  Jasmin McGaughey: So, like, there was this whole, like, complicated thing that I just got really caught up with, um, and obsessed over and it was like, well, the reader's either gonna think that this is all, like, culture, and it's not, it's just r- like, kids with random magical powers, or they're gonna think that it is, like, the opposite of that, and- Yeah any culture I do put in they'll think is made up or, or something like that.
• 5:55
  Jasmin McGaughey: So, um, yeah, I found it really difficult.
• 5:59
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, but I don't know.
• 6:01
  Jasmin McGaughey: I did it.
• 6:02
  Jasmin McGaughey: It's, it's there now.
• 6:03
  Jasmin McGaughey: Oh,
• 6:03
  Natasha Rai: well, sure.
• 6:03
  Natasha Rai: I mean, it's, it's fantastic.
• 6:05
  Natasha Rai: I loved reading it.
• 6:05
  Jasmin McGaughey: Oh.
• 6:05
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 6:06
  Natasha Rai: Um, so did you have to look overseas?
• 6:09
  Natasha Rai: Like, are there examples of this type of work in other markets?
• 6:14
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, yeah.
• 6:14
  Jasmin McGaughey: There, I mean, there's a little bit in Australia, um- Oh, there
• 6:16
  Natasha Rai: is?
• 6:17
  Natasha Rai: Okay
• 6:17
  Jasmin McGaughey: with Aboriginal writers.
• 6:18
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, Amber- Mm Luna Quammelina is an amazing example.
• 6:22
  Jasmin McGaughey: She's got, um, a whole heap of books that are, um, really good.
• 6:27
  Jasmin McGaughey: And then there's stuff in the adult space as well, like Claire G.
• 6:29
  Jasmin McGaughey: Coleman and Mikayla Saunders.
• 6:31
  Natasha Rai: Yep.
• 6:32
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, and, and so that was really, really helpful to, to lean on, but then there was nothing about Torres Strait Islanders, so, um, yeah, I was able- Which is pretty shocking considering- Yeah it's only'26, right?
• 6:41
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 6:41
  Jasmin McGaughey: Or 2025 when it came out, but yeah,
• 6:42
  Natasha Rai: still shocking.
• 6:47
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 6:48
  Jasmin McGaughey: Well, there's only, like, um...
• 6:50
  Jasmin McGaughey: So there's only, like, two adult fiction novels and one YA and one middle grade really that are, like s- that's centered, uh, around Torres Strait Islander culture, people, and written by us as well.
• 7:03
  Jasmin McGaughey: Gosh.
• 7:03
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, yeah.
• 7:04
  Jasmin McGaughey: But
• 7:05
  Natasha Rai: you're like, I guess, the trailblazer
• 7:08
  Jasmin McGaughey: in many a way.
• 7:08
  Jasmin McGaughey: Oh, no.
• 7:09
  Jasmin McGaughey: Well, I mean,
• 7:10
  Natasha Rai: you are.
• 7:11
  Natasha Rai: You are.
• 7:12
  Natasha Rai: Because were you thinking about publication when you were doing your master's and when you were writing longer form?
• 7:20
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 7:20
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah, I was, um- Yes.
• 7:23
  Jasmin McGaughey: I mean, that was I've, I've always wanted to be a writer, a published writer- Okay and yeah.
• 7:28
  Natasha Rai: And so I hate asking this question, but did it worry you that you were writing something that was quite different or not as well known or marketed in this, in, you know, in this industry or in this time and place now?
• 7:42
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 7:42
  Jasmin McGaughey: Like, I was so worried.
• 7:44
  Jasmin McGaughey: I was like,"Oh, is..." Like, are publishers, if they do want it, are they only gonna want it because it's, like, there's not much Torres Strait Island, you know, and'cause there's this big growth of Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander writing, are they just gonna wanna jump on the bandwagon and publish it for that and it might actually be a really bad novel?
• 8:01
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, and so I- No yeah, I was worried- Yeah that, like, that was gonna be the thing and- Like
• 8:07
  Natasha Rai: a tokenism thing.
• 8:08
  Jasmin McGaughey: Like a tokenism thing, yeah, exactly.
• 8:09
  Natasha Rai: Right.
• 8:10
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 8:10
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 8:11
  Jasmin McGaughey: Did that cross your mind at all when you were writing and submitting?
• 8:14
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um,
• 8:15
  Natasha Rai: that's a good question.
• 8:16
  Natasha Rai: I mean- I don't know.
• 8:19
  Natasha Rai: Um, I think I was more noticing that there were just not many Indian Australian writers.
• 8:24
  Natasha Rai: Like, like you were saying, I can count a few.
• 8:27
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm.
• 8:27
  Natasha Rai: I, I could count a few more Sri Lankan Australian writers.
• 8:31
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm.
• 8:31
  Natasha Rai: But, um, it didn't cross my...
• 8:34
  Natasha Rai: I was more w- I was more thinking that they just wouldn't be able to place it somewhere because-
• 8:41
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm
• 8:41
  Natasha Rai: like, you know how, I don't know, well, I'm gonna make a generalized statement, but I'll just make it more specific, but I just felt like when you're writing a character that's not in the mainstream or in a minority group or, or a culture that's not recognized or known about, like, their culture is the story, which kind of sucks- Yeah'cause I'm like,"Well, why does it- Yeah have to be about this person being Indian or being queer or- Mm-hmm whatever," you know?
• 9:06
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yep, yep.
• 9:07
  Jasmin McGaughey: That's what I- Yeah.
• 9:08
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 9:09
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah, exactly.
• 9:10
  Jasmin McGaughey: I just wanted to write, like, a fun, like, we deserve fun stories too that, that aren't always, like, steep.
• 9:17
  Jasmin McGaughey: Not that culture can't be fun, but y- you know what I mean.
• 9:19
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, like, it's not a- like, the protagonist's, um, challenge or issues doesn't come because of their culture.
• 9:25
  Natasha Rai: Yes,
• 9:25
  Jasmin McGaughey: exactly.
• 9:25
  Natasha Rai: They just belong to this place- Yeah or, or family- Yeah or community, then that's just how it is, right?
• 9:31
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah, exactly.
• 9:33
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 9:33
  Natasha Rai: Um, so I'm really curious about Zilla's voice.
• 9:35
  Natasha Rai: Um,'cause when I was reading it, I really got a sense of that kind of tension between that, you know that age where you feel like you're an adult but you're not really.
• 9:48
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm.
• 9:49
  Natasha Rai: And the things that you have to choose that you keep to yourself-
• 9:53
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm
• 9:53
  Natasha Rai: and what you tell your family, especially if you're a close family and especially when you've got a lot of community around you who are like,"Tell us everything."
• 9:59
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 10:00
  Natasha Rai: Um, yeah, I really, I was really appreciating that tension that you s- you captured so beautifully.
• 10:06
  Jasmin McGaughey: Oh, thank you.
• 10:07
  Jasmin McGaughey: Well, g- good- Mm'cause that was, that was I think the main thing.
• 10:11
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm.
• 10:11
  Jasmin McGaughey: 'Cause the story itself changed a lot, but the thing that stayed the same was Zilla and her relationships with the, the other characters in the book, um, particularly her family members.
• 10:21
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 10:21
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 10:22
  Natasha Rai: So how, like, how did you, how did you kind of find a way into her or how did she find a way into you?
• 10:28
  Natasha Rai: Do you remember?
• 10:29
  Natasha Rai: I,
• 10:29
  Jasmin McGaughey: no, I don't remember.
• 10:31
  Jasmin McGaughey: Oh.
• 10:31
  Jasmin McGaughey: I, I mean, in a way I think'cause it was part of that study, o- I had to...
• 10:37
  Jasmin McGaughey: I was very intentional and I...
• 10:39
  Jasmin McGaughey: 'Cause it's, like, the first, like, long form thing that I've written that's this long.
• 10:43
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, I definitely put a lot of my own voice and my own experiences in there'cause, uh, yeah, write what you know and all of that.
• 10:51
  Jasmin McGaughey: It was just a little bit easier to, to go from there.
• 10:55
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, but I don't know, like- Yeah, I don't know.
• 11:01
  Jasmin McGaughey: Sorry.
• 11:02
  Jasmin McGaughey: Okay,
• 11:02
  Natasha Rai: that's fine.
• 11:03
  Natasha Rai: Um, did y- did it, did it change while you were writing it, do you remember?
• 11:09
  Natasha Rai: Or did it feel like once you got into it, it was fairly like i- it flowed for you?
• 11:14
  Jasmin McGaughey: Her voice was quite- Yeah the same.
• 11:16
  Jasmin McGaughey: I think- Yeah it flowed.
• 11:18
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, it was never so much her, it was the things happening around her that I really struggled to write and come up with, and was so thankful that there were some great editors who helped me.
• 11:29
  Natasha Rai: Oh, like, like what?
• 11:30
  Jasmin McGaughey: Like plot.
• 11:32
  Jasmin McGaughey: Okay.
• 11:32
  Jasmin McGaughey: I know it's like the main thing of like writing a novel, but like- It w- because it had changed so much and because I came with it with these, like, I guess ulterior motives of, like, having something that was representative of my people and culture, um, I got tangled with, you know, the, the things that are secret in the book and that are revealed and, like, and I wasn't sure what was gonna be obvious to readers or what wasn't gonna be obvious and, yeah, and what was too much magic, not enough magic and, and
• 12:03
  Natasha Rai: things like
• 12:04
  Jasmin McGaughey: that.
• 12:04
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 12:04
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 12:04
  Natasha Rai: S- so in terms of that plot that you were trying to work out, how, how much of that short story is in the novel now or is it totally different, that how it started?
• 12:14
  Natasha Rai: It- Yeah
• 12:15
  Jasmin McGaughey: almost different.
• 12:16
  Jasmin McGaughey: So the short story's called The Breakup, and it's, spoiler, it's Zilla- Oh is breaking up with her boyfriend Artie'cause she learns that he can fly.
• 12:25
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, and so all that's really kept the same is that Zilla's the main character, there's a guy she's interested in called Artie- Oh and he may or may not have some superhero abilities.
• 12:36
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, and that's it.
• 12:39
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 12:39
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 12:39
  Natasha Rai: Right.
• 12:40
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 12:40
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 12:40
  Natasha Rai: So, so it was more the idea of their dynamic that you took into the, into the novel.
• 12:45
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 12:45
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 12:46
  Jasmin McGaughey: And this whole, like, you know, family has a big impact, a big influence- Yes on Zilla, and so, like, for the novel I had to put, like, a magical kind of tool to keep her from telling people because she, in my mind- Mm she would tell people.
• 13:03
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um-
• 13:03
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 13:04
  Jasmin McGaughey: And yeah, so there's magic that stops her from doing that.
• 13:08
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 13:09
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 13:10
  Natasha Rai: And you know, like, the I'm gonna have to speak around it'cause I don't wanna give it away'cause it's so beautiful, but the f- one of the main things these young adults or these adolescents use their magic powers for-
• 13:24
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm
• 13:24
  Natasha Rai: is very specific.
• 13:26
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 13:27
  Natasha Rai: Um, and I don't wanna say too much about that, but'cause what I was really noticing is in generally superhero type films and narratives where someone has a power- Yeah it's used of course to help others-
• 13:42
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm
• 13:42
  Natasha Rai: but it's used in this weird arbitrary way like- Mm"Oh, there's someone falling out of a building.
• 13:47
  Natasha Rai: Let's go save them." Yeah.
• 13:48
  Natasha Rai: "Oh, there's a fire.
• 13:49
  Natasha Rai: Let's go put it out." Yeah.
• 13:51
  Natasha Rai: But it's just like these random acts of- Yeah whatever, whereas this felt really focused and very considered and- Yeah much more meaningful.
• 14:00
  Natasha Rai: Aw, thank,
• 14:00
  Jasmin McGaughey: oh, thank
• 14:02
  Natasha Rai: you.
• 14:02
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 14:02
  Natasha Rai: And I really loved, I loved how beautiful and generous how these people use their kind of gifts or powers.
• 14:10
  Natasha Rai: How did that come into the world- Um that you built?
• 14:14
  Jasmin McGaughey: Well, I think I, I, well, I just looked at it like a, with an indigenous lens, I guess, in that like, okay, if I had all these superheroes, or me and my friends and family had all these superpowers, sorry, um, we would try and do some good.
• 14:30
  Jasmin McGaughey: And there's, you know, this c- climate change and everything that's happening is, is quite, um, catastrophic really in the Torres Strait.
• 14:40
  Jasmin McGaughey: In my aka my grandmother's islands are really low-lying islands, and we're seeing the waters rising and really encroaching on where people live, where people are buried.
• 14:51
  Jasmin McGaughey: And I, I know that, you know, w- with some superpowers we wouldn't necessarily be able to fix that easily.
• 14:57
  Jasmin McGaughey: But I know that, um, especially young people, um- Mm would, would try and turn their focus to doing good in that way, as, as they do without superpowers.
• 15:08
  Jasmin McGaughey: They're the ones going on strike and- Mm things like that.
• 15:11
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um- Mm.
• 15:13
  Jasmin McGaughey: And, and so that just felt like a, um, realistic kind of-
• 15:17
  Natasha Rai: Yeah
• 15:17
  Jasmin McGaughey: choice.
• 15:18
  Jasmin McGaughey: You know?
• 15:19
  Natasha Rai: It, it almost feels like, when I think about it now, that these kids- They turn their attention even though it's meant to be a magical power, but it's like if we all turned our attention to what's important in our lives and dialed up our empathy and compassion-
• 15:35
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah
• 15:35
  Natasha Rai: we would all be in that kind of magical space of doing things for each other and just being connected.
• 15:41
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 15:42
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 15:42
  Jasmin McGaughey: And I mean, I feel like I remember being in high school, you know, and so much just felt possible.
• 15:49
  Jasmin McGaughey: And I guess I'm like- Yeah older, cynical now where it doesn't feel like as possible, but, um, I, yeah, I really loved that part of being a teenager.
• 15:58
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 15:58
  Jasmin McGaughey: There's lots to not like about it, but I did like that part.
• 16:01
  Natasha Rai: Maybe we have more fight in us or something when we're younger.
• 16:04
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 16:04
  Natasha Rai: Like, we, we- Yeah understand the structures in place, but at the same time we're like,"You know what?"
• 16:09
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 16:09
  Natasha Rai: I can take it down."
• 16:12
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 16:12
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah,
• 16:13
  Natasha Rai: exactly.
• 16:13
  Natasha Rai: Or at least, or, or at least rebel in some way or- Yeah have a voice against it, whereas maybe when we get older it, everything just feels so hard.
• 16:21
  Natasha Rai: And I guess we have more to lose'cause we start to gain things like, you know, jobs and-
• 16:26
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah
• 16:27
  Natasha Rai: financial challenges, blah, blah, blah, and all of that gets in the way.
• 16:31
  Jasmin McGaughey: Definitely.
• 16:31
  Jasmin McGaughey: You know?
• 16:31
  Jasmin McGaughey: I mean, our frontal lobe develops and we realize that it's- Oh,
• 16:34
  Natasha Rai: yeah.
• 16:34
  Natasha Rai: a
• 16:34
  Jasmin McGaughey: lot harder to, like, save the world.
• 16:37
  Natasha Rai: That bloody frontal lobe.
• 16:38
  Jasmin McGaughey: I know.
• 16:41
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, but yeah.
• 16:44
  Natasha Rai: So, um, once you finished your master's, what did you have in terms of this novel?
• 16:50
  Natasha Rai: What was the product that you came out with?
• 16:52
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, it was a 40,000 word novella.
• 16:55
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm-hmm.
• 16:55
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, I did not love it, um, so I sat on it for like a while.
• 17:01
  Jasmin McGaughey: Okay.
• 17:01
  Jasmin McGaughey: It was like a couple years and it maybe-
• 17:03
  Natasha Rai: What, what didn't, what didn't you like about it?
• 17:05
  Jasmin McGaughey: I can't even remember.
• 17:06
  Jasmin McGaughey: I think it was the fact that I just really struggled in the master's.
• 17:11
  Jasmin McGaughey: And I hadn't, like not outwardly you wouldn't know, you know, I met every deadline and, um, was able to pass without too much issue, but like internally I felt a lot of com- like, I was just really anxious about it and so I didn't get to, like, enjoy the process.
• 17:29
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, I felt I was I, I set myself up really to f- not fail, but like to struggle because I s- didn't just write for the love of it.
• 17:40
  Jasmin McGaughey: I, I was writing for a reason, and part of the reason was, yes, because it's study and I need to finish something, and part of the reason was, yes, for representation.
• 17:48
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 17:49
  Jasmin McGaughey: And so it, yeah, it didn't get the, like the just free joy that I r- had when I, before study.
• 17:57
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um- and all of that.
• 17:59
  Jasmin McGaughey: So, uh, yeah, so I just needed some time.
• 18:02
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm-hmm.
• 18:02
  Jasmin McGaughey: And then I came back to it and worked on it a little bit with my agent, and then I was like,"I can't do any more, I just really need editorial feedback," and so we went to a few people who we trusted- Okay to see what the-
• 18:15
  Natasha Rai: So can I just go back a bit?
• 18:17
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 18:17
  Natasha Rai: So in between taking a break from it, were you wr- writing other things?
• 18:22
  Natasha Rai: Were you writing for pleasure?
• 18:24
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah, I was doing, um...
• 18:26
  Jasmin McGaughey: I got to do these children's books, um- Right yeah, for, for Ashbody, and so I got to do, like, a heap of them in between, which was really good, and, um, it was really fun because they were quite quick.
• 18:39
  Jasmin McGaughey: You know, they're a few thousand words, so I didn't have to worry about getting something over 70,000 or, um...
• 18:48
  Jasmin McGaughey: And so I was working on them, so I was happily distracted and still feeling very much in the industry and working at a bookstore, um, and doing some freelance editing and things.
• 18:56
  Natasha Rai: Okay, so you were kind of doing, uh, exercising your creative muscle.
• 19:01
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah, I think so.
• 19:02
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 19:02
  Jasmin McGaughey: I think working at a bookstore was actually the best thing for creative, that creative muscle.
• 19:07
  Jasmin McGaughey: Like, I really missed it.
• 19:08
  Jasmin McGaughey: It was really, really good.
• 19:11
  Natasha Rai: Um, and so how...
• 19:13
  Natasha Rai: What was the process like of getting an agent?
• 19:17
  Jasmin McGaughey: Because of the Ash Body books.
• 19:19
  Jasmin McGaughey: So I had been doing some editing for the, um, publisher, and they're like,"Hey, we've got this opportunity.
• 19:25
  Jasmin McGaughey: Do you want to, you know, submit a sample?" And so I did, and then as that kind of unraveled I was like,"I want an agent," and because I am too anxious to talk to publishers and do any negotiation or anything like that.
• 19:39
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, and so I reached out to Alex Adsett based on that.
• 19:43
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um-
• 19:43
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 19:44
  Natasha Rai: Okay
• 19:45
  Jasmin McGaughey: and, and that's when we went from there.
• 19:47
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 19:48
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 19:48
  Natasha Rai: And so I know you don't at the moment, but at the time you were living in Queensland?
• 19:53
  Jasmin McGaughey: I was...
• 19:54
  Jasmin McGaughey: I'd just moved to Darwin, actually.
• 19:55
  Jasmin McGaughey: So I was living in Queensland- Okay for my study, and then I moved to- Yeah Darwin, um, after graduating.
• 20:02
  Natasha Rai: Is that where you grew up?
• 20:03
  Jasmin McGaughey: No.
• 20:04
  Jasmin McGaughey: My partner's from there.
• 20:05
  Jasmin McGaughey: I grew up in Cairns, in Queensland.
• 20:06
  Natasha Rai: Ah, okay.
• 20:07
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 20:07
  Natasha Rai: 'Cause I was wondering about the setting in your novel.
• 20:09
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 20:09
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 20:09
  Natasha Rai: 'Cause it's so...
• 20:12
  Natasha Rai: I, uh, there were times where I was like I was getting hot from the humidity- reading about.
• 20:15
  Natasha Rai: I was like,"Oh my God- Yeah I'm sweating just reading this book."
• 20:18
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 20:18
  Jasmin McGaughey: 'Cause
• 20:18
  Natasha Rai: it's so evocative, like the kind of that- I'm glad
• 20:21
  Jasmin McGaughey: to hear
• 20:21
  Natasha Rai: that kind of wet heat.
• 20:23
  Natasha Rai: Obviously humidity- Yeah is that heat.
• 20:25
  Natasha Rai: But yeah.
• 20:25
  Natasha Rai: I mean,
• 20:25
  Jasmin McGaughey: it is similar in Darwin, but I was in Cairns while I was writing some of it, so that was helpful.
• 20:30
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 20:30
  Natasha Rai: I really felt that captured the setting.
• 20:32
  Natasha Rai: It was just incredible.
• 20:34
  Natasha Rai: Um, okay, so when you went out to editors with Alex Adsett, were you looking for someone to give you some advice on how to do something with it?
• 20:46
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 20:47
  Jasmin McGaughey: I just knew that it wasn't ready.
• 20:50
  Jasmin McGaughey: Uh, not that it wasn't re- It just, like, that it needed editorial help, and I just wanted to see what...
• 20:55
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, so we went to, I think we went to three publishers, and only in one gave me feedback that I was like,"Yes, that really does align with what I'm thinking." And, um, and they had been, like, on my list because they're one of the few publishers who have been publishing speculative fiction, um, consistently for ages.
• 21:15
  Jasmin McGaughey: So yeah.
• 21:17
  Jasmin McGaughey: So that, that's kind of-
• 21:19
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 21:19
  Natasha Rai: And that was still when it was about 40,000 words, or had you written more?
• 21:22
  Jasmin McGaughey: No, I had written more.
• 21:24
  Jasmin McGaughey: It was 70,000 or- Okay yeah, it was around s- 60 or 70.
• 21:28
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, yeah.
• 21:30
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 21:31
  Jasmin McGaughey: I had written more.
• 21:31
  Natasha Rai: And, and did you do that kind of exercise for the publishers that you did go to, that you were checking out what type of work they were publishing, who they were publishing?
• 21:41
  Natasha Rai: A
• 21:41
  Jasmin McGaughey: little bit.
• 21:42
  Jasmin McGaughey: I think I've been d- I've been doing it for a while before anyway, just'cause it's motivating and exciting.
• 21:50
  Jasmin McGaughey: And does Do, do you feel the same?
• 21:51
  Jasmin McGaughey: Were you like that?
• 21:53
  Natasha Rai: Well, it's I did and I didn't, because I know that sometimes it can feel a bit scary or daunting- Mm to check publishers out because, especially if you have, like, a dream publisher or you really want to be published- Mm by a certain house, and they don't really ha- publish exactly what you write, which I know you don't have to.
• 22:10
  Natasha Rai: You have to- Mm you know?
• 22:11
  Natasha Rai: But yeah, I was curious about that,'cause sometimes when I was looking around And you know, they get, they tell you things like,"You should know your comp titles.
• 22:19
  Natasha Rai: You should know who publishes what." Like, it just, sometimes that just felt a bit, um, what's the right word?
• 22:24
  Natasha Rai: I don't know, just a bit- scary or just a bit kind of-
• 22:28
  Jasmin McGaughey: Overwhelming?
• 22:29
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, and a bit, like, tiring.
• 22:31
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 22:32
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm.
• 22:32
  Jasmin McGaughey: Tiring.
• 22:33
  Jasmin McGaughey: And I wonder if it's different in adult space as well, because- Oh,
• 22:36
  Natasha Rai: yeah, maybe
• 22:37
  Jasmin McGaughey: there's so much more, like, for you to have to think about, whereas, I mean, yeah, um, most publishers do publish YA, but I feel like a lot of them don't all publish speculative fiction, so.
• 22:49
  Natasha Rai: That's true.
• 22:49
  Natasha Rai: That, that's true.
• 22:50
  Jasmin McGaughey: It did, it did feel like it narrowed my choices a little bit.
• 22:54
  Natasha Rai: So is that how, how you and Alex went in?
• 22:57
  Natasha Rai: Like you were saying,"What do you think of this work?
• 23:00
  Natasha Rai: Would you ever publish it?"
• 23:03
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 23:04
  Jasmin McGaughey: I can't remember now.
• 23:04
  Jasmin McGaughey: What were we...
• 23:05
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um.
• 23:06
  Natasha Rai: Or, like, was it more like the kind of traditional submission of,"I'm submitting this for publication"?
• 23:12
  Jasmin McGaughey: I think it was like a traditional, like, submission- All right thing, but with the note of,"Jasmine's aware that there's some work that needs to be done, and we'd love to chat.
• 23:19
  Jasmin McGaughey: If you're interested, we'd love to chat about how you see things could go." Ah.
• 23:22
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, yeah, I think so.
• 23:25
  Natasha Rai: Interesting.
• 23:26
  Natasha Rai: I find that really interesting because- Yeah you know, like, there's so much, I'm sure you've heard this from other authors, about how you only get one chance and how you have to make- Yeah the best work it can possibly be.
• 23:38
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 23:38
  Natasha Rai: So it's interesting that you went in with that recognition of it needs work, and
• 23:43
  Jasmin McGaughey: what do
• 23:43
  Natasha Rai: you think?
• 23:44
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 23:44
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 23:45
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah, and I And my And Alex said that, too.
• 23:48
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, you know, it needs to be the best, and I was like,"It's the best that I can make it." Like, I know that I'm not gonna be able to do anything else with it, um, until I get actual, like, a, some good Strachan editorial feedback.
• 24:02
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm.
• 24:03
  Jasmin McGaughey: And but I lo- I love learning about, like, how people submit their work, too, and that, you know, authors are submitting just, like, v- like, multiple ideas to their publisher and saying,"Okay, I've got all these ideas.
• 24:17
  Jasmin McGaughey: Which one do you think works?" And I'll go and write that or I'll, will, I'll write a sample and then get a deal based off that sample, and things like that.
• 24:24
  Jasmin McGaughey: And yeah, it's just, it's very interesting.
• 24:28
  Natasha Rai: Uh, yeah, I don't know if there are...
• 24:29
  Natasha Rai: Well, I don't know enough, obviously I don't know everyone, but I can't imagine any emerging writers doing that, unless they've just got- No so much confidence.
• 24:35
  Natasha Rai: They'd have- Yeah
• 24:36
  Jasmin McGaughey: yeah, one at least published, I think.
• 24:39
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, exactly.
• 24:40
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 24:40
  Natasha Rai: Like, you would have to a relationship where you'd be like,"What do you think?" Yeah.
• 24:42
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 24:43
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 24:43
  Natasha Rai: So Allen Unwin came back to you with-
• 24:46
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm-hmm
• 24:47
  Natasha Rai: interest.
• 24:47
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 24:48
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 24:48
  Natasha Rai: And how was it when you looked at their feedback?
• 24:51
  Natasha Rai: Do you remember how it felt?
• 24:53
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, I ca- I remember I was sitting...
• 24:56
  Jasmin McGaughey: It was on a Zoom, and I was in Cairns at the time, and it was over Christmas.
• 25:00
  Jasmin McGaughey: And, um- I remember I spoke to Jodie, who's my publisher there, and she, she kind of mentioned all the points that I was worried about.
• 25:11
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 25:11
  Jasmin McGaughey: And so I was,"Oh, that's, that'd be good then," to just not have to feel like I'm the one holding the worry for that, you know- Mm plot hole or that, um, issue with the writing or anything.
• 25:23
  Jasmin McGaughey: It, it, it feels good that someone else is l- like aware of it and can help.
• 25:27
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 25:27
  Natasha Rai: And so did she have ideas of how you could kind of write those things- Yeah or fix those issues?
• 25:35
  Natasha Rai: Do you remember?
• 25:36
  Jasmin McGaughey: No, I can't remember, to be honest.
• 25:38
  Jasmin McGaughey: 'Cause I can't even remember after that,'cause I got a structural report.
• 25:43
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 25:44
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um,
• 25:45
  Natasha Rai: but I can't remember- So, so- Yeah so she took it to acquisitions in that form, like she didn't want you to- Mm-mm do any work on it first, and then-
• 25:52
  Jasmin McGaughey: No wow.
• 25:52
  Jasmin McGaughey: It was finished.
• 25:54
  Jasmin McGaughey: It was finished, but it just wasn't like, I wasn't...
• 25:58
  Jasmin McGaughey: Like I knew it needed work, it needed to be better.
• 26:01
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um-
• 26:01
  Natasha Rai: But I, I guess, you know, like that, that, um, again, that difference in standards, right?
• 26:07
  Natasha Rai: So you feel like,"This is okay, I know it needs work."
• 26:10
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm.
• 26:11
  Natasha Rai: And a publisher's standard, which is,"This is good enough for me to take to acquisitions now."
• 26:15
  Jasmin McGaughey: Maybe.
• 26:15
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 26:15
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah
• 26:16
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 26:16
  Natasha Rai: Which is, is saying a lot about her confidence in, in, in your work, and her confidence in you, and that's amazing.
• 26:24
  Jasmin McGaughey: Well, yeah.
• 26:25
  Jasmin McGaughey: I mean, uh, uh,'cause I had the track record of doing the Ash Barty books- Right and a few other shorter pieces, and, um, maybe'cause I knew, having worked as an editor, freelance, just only freelance, but, like, it, it helped a little bit.
• 26:41
  Jasmin McGaughey: But I mean, that was part of my worry, though.
• 26:43
  Jasmin McGaughey: I was like- You know, oh, are they just taking it because it's Torres Strait Islander, and is that okay if, if they are, and what does that even mean for the book?
• 26:52
  Jasmin McGaughey: And then- Mm-hmm and all of that kind of stuff.
• 26:55
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, and so yeah, it was, it was good, but it was also, like- Mm anxiety provoking.
• 27:02
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 27:02
  Natasha Rai: And, and I'm...
• 27:04
  Natasha Rai: And maybe this is not a valid question or even an interesting question, but if you had had that feeling that it was a tokenistic thing-
• 27:15
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm
• 27:16
  Natasha Rai: how would that have sat with you?
• 27:17
  Natasha Rai: Would you have done it anyway?
• 27:19
  Jasmin McGaughey: I don't know.
• 27:20
  Jasmin McGaughey: I think- Mm'cause back then, like, I feel like now I know more about the process, and I would do some things differently, but I wouldn't...
• 27:32
  Jasmin McGaughey: I, I don't know.
• 27:34
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 27:35
  Jasmin McGaughey: As if it was to happen now with the, like, a second book or whatever, I'd be like,"Okay, no." Um,'cause I feel like I have a little bit more knowledge- Mm and awareness and- Mm confidence or whatever, but back then, I don't know.
• 27:45
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 27:46
  Jasmin McGaughey: I'd like to think that I would just walk away.
• 27:48
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm.
• 27:49
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, but yeah, I don't know.
• 27:53
  Natasha Rai: So when was this?
• 27:53
  Natasha Rai: Like, 2024, is that when this was happening, or earlier?
• 27:57
  Natasha Rai: I
• 27:58
  Jasmin McGaughey: can't remember.
• 27:58
  Jasmin McGaughey: 2023?
• 27:59
  Jasmin McGaughey: No, it must have been the end of 2023 then.
• 28:02
  Natasha Rai: Oh, yeah, okay.
• 28:02
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 28:02
  Jasmin McGaughey: In December of- Yeah 2023.
• 28:03
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 28:04
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 28:05
  Natasha Rai: That's a really tricky one because, you know, on, in s- on one hand, if it was, if you do come across that again- Mm or not again, you didn't come across it already, but if that was in the mix, in a way it's like, well, you can take advantage of that-
• 28:19
  Jasmin McGaughey: Exactly,
• 28:19
  Natasha Rai: yeah and get, and get work out there that needs to be out there anyway.
• 28:23
  Natasha Rai: But I- Yeah I also get the feeling of, oh, I want the work to be based on its merit and its strength-
• 28:30
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah
• 28:30
  Natasha Rai: not just because I, you know, belong to a certain group.
• 28:34
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 28:34
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 28:35
  Jasmin McGaughey: But then you start, like, overthinking and the, well, who decides- what is, like- Well,
• 28:39
  Natasha Rai: yes
• 28:39
  Jasmin McGaughey: good writing or what's, like, worthy of publication.
• 28:43
  Jasmin McGaughey: And then it's like this whole loop of, like, am I comparing myself to this, like, Western idea of what a good story is?
• 28:50
  Jasmin McGaughey: Oh, true.
• 28:51
  Jasmin McGaughey: And, you know, so it's like this whole, I don't know, s- circular kind of loop that keeps- It is.
• 28:59
  Natasha Rai: It definitely- Like- is circular, yeah
• 29:01
  Jasmin McGaughey: freeze you and stop you and just, okay- Mm it's too hard, I won't do it.
• 29:05
  Natasha Rai: True.
• 29:06
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm.
• 29:07
  Natasha Rai: So it, it sounds like y- the process or the timing was quite long, like, if you were signing or working on- Moonlight and Dust, like early 2020, uh, late 2023, early 2024, and it didn't come out.
• 29:20
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 29:20
  Natasha Rai: So yeah,'cause my, my, mine was quite long too.
• 29:23
  Natasha Rai: And mine, I signed in 2023- Yeah and it didn't come out till 2025.
• 29:26
  Jasmin McGaughey: We came out around the same time, didn't we?
• 29:28
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 29:28
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, mine was March.
• 29:29
  Natasha Rai: When was yours?
• 29:30
  Jasmin McGaughey: Oh, yeah, July 1st.
• 29:31
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 29:31
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:32
  Natasha Rai: So, yeah.
• 29:33
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 29:33
  Natasha Rai: Oh, it's been a year for you, yeah.
• 29:34
  Natasha Rai: Um- Yeah.
• 29:36
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah
• 29:37
  Natasha Rai: and, and so how was that process working on, on the book, getting, you know, your structural report, the next phases of editing?
• 29:45
  Natasha Rai: How was all of that for you?
• 29:47
  Jasmin McGaughey: Uh, I, I wanna know how it was for you too, because, like, I, I love getting edited, and I love feedback, and- Me too it's like a, maybe it's a self-confidence thing or something, but I also just really like the collaboration aspect of it, I think.
• 30:04
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, and I also really loved being able to send the manuscript off and be like,"Well, this is not my problem anymore." I've got, like, four to six weeks of, like- Yeah not having to think about that.
• 30:16
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, literally nothing I can do about it.
• 30:18
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, so that was really fun.
• 30:21
  Jasmin McGaughey: The, the editors were great.
• 30:22
  Jasmin McGaughey: They were lovely, and yeah, it, that, that was completely fine.
• 30:28
  Jasmin McGaughey: Once it was out, that was a different story.
• 30:30
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 30:30
  Jasmin McGaughey: But actually working on, um, the manuscript with the editors at ANU was, was lovely.
• 30:35
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 30:35
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 30:36
  Natasha Rai: And, like, what did you notice about your own experience, like, being an editor and then being edited?
• 30:41
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 30:41
  Natasha Rai: 'Cause that, I don't know, that must feel really different.
• 30:45
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 30:45
  Jasmin McGaughey: It was like- I think'cause I came up as an editor through the Black and Write program, um, which was at the State Library and is not anymore, but...
• 30:57
  Jasmin McGaughey: Of Queensland, sorry.
• 30:58
  Jasmin McGaughey: And, and it was just a f- like, fantastic experience, and really, really is, um, really built up not just my knowledge, but my confidence and being able to push back- Mm um, being able to h- make sure an author feels they can push back.
• 31:13
  Jasmin McGaughey: And so I feel like I was able to take that, not that I had a lot to push back on with the editors, to be honest.
• 31:19
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, but I was able to take that, um, into my mindset at least so that I don't think I felt at all like anything that was in the book or taken out of the book I didn't agree with-
• 31:30
  Natasha Rai: Mm
• 31:30
  Jasmin McGaughey: or, if you know what I mean.
• 31:32
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 31:32
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 31:33
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 31:33
  Natasha Rai: And what do you remember about the cover design?
• 31:35
  Natasha Rai: 'Cause the cover is so striking.
• 31:37
  Natasha Rai: Like, it's so beautiful.
• 31:39
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 31:39
  Natasha Rai: Like, w- how was that process?
• 31:42
  Jasmin McGaughey: Uh, it's so smooth, and I know it's not the case for everyone, but, like- Mm I, they were lovely.
• 31:48
  Jasmin McGaughey: They were like,"Okay, what do you see for the cover?" And I was like,"Well, these are a couple of artists who I love, and these are a couple book covers I love." And the artist is Tori-Jane Morty, who's a To- Torres Strait Islander as well.
• 31:59
  Jasmin McGaughey: And, um, they sent back the first draft, and I was like, oh, there's something here.
• 32:03
  Jasmin McGaughey: Purple's, like, my favorite color, and I don't know how they got that, but it's my favorite color.
• 32:08
  Jasmin McGaughey: And the, the image, like the first rounds, it was like Zilla,'cause she's the front cover, was looking a little older.
• 32:15
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm-hmm.
• 32:16
  Jasmin McGaughey: So we asked to make her b- look a bit younger, and then they got this, like...
• 32:20
  Jasmin McGaughey: I don't...
• 32:20
  Jasmin McGaughey: Isn't, no, is it m- embossed or, like, there's this, like, UV, spot UV I think they call it, like, um, shine to the magical veins on Zilla's- Yes body.
• 32:30
  Natasha Rai: Yes, yes.
• 32:32
  Jasmin McGaughey: And I love that.
• 32:33
  Jasmin McGaughey: It's so...
• 32:34
  Jasmin McGaughey: It was like, it was all cool.
• 32:35
  Jasmin McGaughey: Like, I've seen some authors who have such different, um, covers to choose from, like different, um- Yeah, mm versions, but mine was, like, pretty much exactly the same from the start to the end.
• 32:47
  Jasmin McGaughey: How was it for you?
• 32:49
  Natasha Rai: Oh, for my cover, oh, it was, it was great because I didn't get to see...
• 32:54
  Natasha Rai: Like, uh, like you, they showed me a couple of images-
• 32:57
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm
• 32:57
  Natasha Rai: and I really trusted Kate.
• 32:59
  Natasha Rai: Oh, you know Kate, Kate Coolidge.
• 33:00
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 33:01
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 33:01
  Natasha Rai: So I really trusted her, and so she had two images, and we talked about them, and then I got really emotional'cause I loved them so much.
• 33:08
  Natasha Rai: I remember I was talking to her on the street, and she was like,"Are you crying?" Oh.
• 33:11
  Natasha Rai: And I'm like,"A little bit." But, like, in a good way, in a good way.
• 33:14
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, she would've
• 33:15
  Jasmin McGaughey: loved that.
• 33:15
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 33:15
  Jasmin McGaughey: She would've just, like, yeah.
• 33:16
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, yeah.
• 33:17
  Natasha Rai: Um, but, but I just wanted to say about your cover, like, it was really cool because, this is probably just me, but I noticed that I started reading it, and I...
• 33:27
  Natasha Rai: You know, every time I picked up the book, I looked at the cover, and I opened it and went back to reading.
• 33:31
  Natasha Rai: But it really felt like to me, as I was reading more and I was finding out more about Moondust-
• 33:36
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm
• 33:36
  Natasha Rai: the cover seemed to kind of glow in a different way.
• 33:40
  Jasmin McGaughey: Oh, oh
• 33:40
  Natasha Rai: yeah.
• 33:40
  Natasha Rai: Like, I could really notice more the kind of the shimmery thing.
• 33:44
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah,
• 33:45
  Natasha Rai: it does do that.
• 33:45
  Natasha Rai: That's all I'm gonna say, is that I...
• 33:47
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 33:47
  Natasha Rai: But I really noticed that a lot more, um, even in the...
• 33:52
  Natasha Rai: I feel like there's spark- this is terrible.
• 33:55
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 33:55
  Natasha Rai: Like, no one can see what I'm even talking about.
• 33:57
  Jasmin McGaughey: Sorry, yeah, no, that's like, I've forgotten, so I'm looking at it here.
• 33:59
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 33:59
  Jasmin McGaughey: There's, like, stars in the background, and
• 34:01
  Natasha Rai: then- Yeah, the little sparkly bits I think like, yeah Yes.
• 34:03
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 34:03
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, okay.
• 34:05
  Natasha Rai: Um, and I felt like they really were much more emphasized for me when I was figuring out what was happening with these kids.
• 34:13
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 34:13
  Natasha Rai: So I felt like the cover really spoke on so many levels to me.
• 34:17
  Natasha Rai: I was just- Yeah
• 34:19
  Jasmin McGaughey: I loved it.
• 34:19
  Jasmin McGaughey: I, well, I'm so glad.
• 34:20
  Jasmin McGaughey: I think one of the most important things to me was that the main, that the, the cover had showed Zilla, and although it's not, like, a, um, what do you call it?
• 34:31
  Jasmin McGaughey: Like, although it's all, like, shaded in purple, so you can't tell her skin color or anything, her hair is, is...
• 34:33
  Jasmin McGaughey: She has curly- Oh, yeah hair.
• 34:38
  Jasmin McGaughey: So she has the curly, like, Afro-like hair, and I was,'cause she has that as a character, I definitely wanted that to be showcased on the cover.
• 34:50
  Lynsey McDonald: Hi, Book Deal Podcast.
• 34:51
  Lynsey McDonald: This is Lindsay McDonald.
• 34:53
  Lynsey McDonald: My debut novel, Bailey Street, launches on 23rd of July with Hawkeye Publishing.
• 34:58
  Lynsey McDonald: Bailey Street is a dual timeline historical and contemporary love story set between the UK, Ireland, and Western Australia.
• 35:06
  Lynsey McDonald: It follows Rebecca, a workaholic breakfast radio producer, who finds out in the space of a week that she's being made redundant and that her dad isn't really her dad.
• 35:16
  Lynsey McDonald: She travels to WA to meet her biological father and gets caught up in the fight to save his tiny colonial cottage nestled into an industrial port on Bailey Street.
• 35:28
  Lynsey McDonald: With the help of a handsome history professor, Rebecca uncovers the secrets the house has been keeping for 150 years, the love story between her own ancestral grandmother and the famous Irish soldier, convict, and poet, John Boyle O'Reilly.
• 35:43
  Lynsey McDonald: The seed for this story was planted back in 2018 when I read about the Irish Fenian soldiers on board the last convict ship to arrive in WA.
• 35:52
  Lynsey McDonald: I went into the research trenches, and I learned how to write.
• 35:56
  Lynsey McDonald: Then I experienced the joy of writing a story that seemed to have chosen me.
• 36:01
  Lynsey McDonald: Then the humbling and excruciating process of submissions, rejections, rewrites, submissions, until that final yes.
• 36:09
  Lynsey McDonald: Bailey Street is for anyone who wants to be swept away into another time and place, readers who love a story with heart, with pace, with a sense of humor, and a touch of spice.
• 36:23
  Natasha Rai: so how, like, when it was finally published and it came out, what was that time like?
• 36:29
  Jasmin McGaughey: I did not love it.
• 36:30
  Natasha Rai: You didn't?
• 36:31
  Jasmin McGaughey: No.
• 36:32
  Natasha Rai: Oh, okay.
• 36:32
  Jasmin McGaughey: Did you like when your book came out?
• 36:34
  Jasmin McGaughey: Like, shit, wait.
• 36:35
  Natasha Rai: Uh, I liked it better when I was talking to people one-on-one than doing- Uh-huh events.
• 36:41
  Jasmin McGaughey: Uh-huh.
• 36:41
  Natasha Rai: Because events, uh, I said this before, I just, I don't know, I always had this weird feeling that people were gonna come heckle me.
• 36:47
  Jasmin McGaughey: No,
• 36:48
  Natasha Rai: no.
• 36:48
  Jasmin McGaughey: And
• 36:48
  Natasha Rai: that's, and that...
• 36:49
  Natasha Rai: I know, I know.
• 36:49
  Natasha Rai: It's so weird, and that I'd have to somehow explain myself or-
• 36:54
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah
• 36:54
  Natasha Rai: I don't know, give some kind of justification as to why I was even up there.
• 36:58
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 36:59
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah, I get that.
• 37:00
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 37:00
  Natasha Rai: I don't have that as much now.
• 37:02
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 37:02
  Natasha Rai: Um, but in the early days I did, but I much prefer talking to people just one-on-one- Yeah about it.
• 37:07
  Natasha Rai: What, what didn't you like?
• 37:09
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, it was just a lot.
• 37:12
  Jasmin McGaughey: It was, I think-'Cause I,'cause I was living in Darwin, so I was living about four hours away from where things would happen.
• 37:20
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 37:20
  Jasmin McGaughey: And I'd gotten a grant to bring me to Sydney to visit- Mm-hmm some bookstores and to also help for a Brisbane book launch,'cause I didn't know that many people in Darwin.
• 37:29
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, and so I'd come to Katoomba for work, and that's I think where I first met you.
• 37:34
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, and it was a week before my book was coming out, and then I was going down to Sydney to go to all of the, not all of them, but, but a fair few bookstores.
• 37:42
  Natasha Rai: Yeah,
• 37:43
  Jasmin McGaughey: a
• 37:43
  Natasha Rai: few of them.
• 37:43
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 37:43
  Natasha Rai: I
• 37:44
  Jasmin McGaughey: mean, I loved it.
• 37:45
  Jasmin McGaughey: I loved meeting booksellers.
• 37:46
  Jasmin McGaughey: They were the best.
• 37:47
  Jasmin McGaughey: And, um, it was amazing to see my book, like, there with my name on it and that cover, but it was very, very draining.
• 37:56
  Jasmin McGaughey: And, and then the book launch, I had family, and it was lovely and it was...
• 38:02
  Jasmin McGaughey: Then it ended up in Torch News and, but it was just so draining.
• 38:06
  Jasmin McGaughey: And I found talking- Mm about myself and talking about the book- Ah like just beyond- Yeah exhausting to the point of like I just didn't wanna do it anymore.
• 38:16
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 38:17
  Jasmin McGaughey: And I was like, but I feel like I've always known I would be like this.
• 38:19
  Jasmin McGaughey: Like, if I could just make money off being an anonymous writer and not having to have any kind of, like- Yeah, I don't know- Presence feel the obligation to- Yeah, yeah'cause I don't mind.
• 38:30
  Jasmin McGaughey: I love talking about books, and I love festivals and things like that, and, and things like this.
• 38:35
  Jasmin McGaughey: I love talking about, um, books with other book nerds.
• 38:38
  Jasmin McGaughey: But it's Yeah.
• 38:40
  Jasmin McGaughey: 'Cause maybe it was'cause it was just bang, bang, bang, one after the other.
• 38:42
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 38:43
  Jasmin McGaughey: It, it was too much for me.
• 38:44
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um.
• 38:45
  Natasha Rai: How did you look after yourself and get your energy back during that time?
• 38:50
  Jasmin McGaughey: I definitely didn't.
• 38:51
  Jasmin McGaughey: I als- I was like working while I was, like-
• 38:53
  Natasha Rai: Ah
• 38:54
  Jasmin McGaughey: in Sydney and Brisbane.
• 38:55
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm.
• 38:55
  Jasmin McGaughey: And, um, and, and so I was working, and then I was doing some freelance work, and had a few, like So had the events, had some radio things, and, um, had some articles to write.
• 39:08
  Jasmin McGaughey: And while it was great and I'm grateful for it, yeah, I just, I didn't take care of myself.
• 39:14
  Jasmin McGaughey: So yeah, it's been a while since-
• 39:18
  Natasha Rai: Yeah
• 39:19
  Jasmin McGaughey: yeah, since then, but I just didn't enjoy the experience.
• 39:22
  Jasmin McGaughey: So I know that Yeah.
• 39:25
  Jasmin McGaughey: And it's so different from all the other little, uh, you know, younger reader books that I've gotten to do that, yeah.
• 39:32
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm.
• 39:33
  Natasha Rai: But I, I came to your session at the Blue Mountains Writers' Festival with Olivia O'Flynn.
• 39:37
  Jasmin McGaughey: Oh, yeah.
• 39:38
  Jasmin McGaughey: I, I loved that.
• 39:39
  Jasmin McGaughey: The
• 39:39
  Natasha Rai: 12th.
• 39:39
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 39:40
  Natasha Rai: And- you looked, you looked like you were having fun, and you looked- really relaxed, and you were so confident- Oh and artic- and articulate.
• 39:47
  Natasha Rai: So-
• 39:48
  Jasmin McGaughey: Oh
• 39:49
  Natasha Rai: I don't know i- if that felt different to you, but in terms of that- It- nervousness or that kind of not liking being to- up there, but you looked great.
• 39:57
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 39:57
  Jasmin McGaughey: Oh, thank you.
• 39:58
  Jasmin McGaughey: It did,'cause that wasn't around the same time as all the other ones.
• 40:01
  Jasmin McGaughey: That was, like- That's true in October.
• 40:02
  Jasmin McGaughey: So I'd had a big break, and I love Katoomba and I love the Blue Mountains.
• 40:06
  Jasmin McGaughey: So And we were talking about romantasy, so I didn't have to just talk about my book.
• 40:10
  Jasmin McGaughey: Like, we talked about Olivia's book.
• 40:12
  Jasmin McGaughey: Ah, yes.
• 40:12
  Natasha Rai: We talked about- That's true.
• 40:13
  Natasha Rai: Mm
• 40:13
  Jasmin McGaughey: everything, like, to do with romantasy, which is probably my favorite topic.
• 40:18
  Jasmin McGaughey: And yeah, so I was in my happy place.
• 40:22
  Natasha Rai: Exactly.
• 40:23
  Natasha Rai: Well, speaking of Katoomba and the Blue Mountains, you are now creative producer at Wiluna.
• 40:28
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 40:29
  Jasmin McGaughey: And- Creative
• 40:29
  Natasha Rai: producer,
• 40:30
  Jasmin McGaughey: First Nations
• 40:31
  Natasha Rai: Sorry.
• 40:31
  Natasha Rai: First, yes.
• 40:32
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 40:33
  Natasha Rai: And you are also an editor, and you're also a writer.
• 40:35
  Natasha Rai: So you have all these different hats, all these different industry hats.
• 40:39
  Natasha Rai: What are you learning, if anything, about craft and all these, through all these different avenues?
• 40:46
  Jasmin McGaughey: That's such a good question.
• 40:47
  Jasmin McGaughey: I love hearing people talk about craft.
• 40:50
  Jasmin McGaughey: And to be honest, after Moonlight and Dust, I haven't done too much writing other than, um, like, my, the commissioned work that I've had and commission books that I've had which are younger readers, and doesn't feel quite the same.
• 41:04
  Jasmin McGaughey: And so I feel like, I don't know if...
• 41:06
  Jasmin McGaughey: Y- you gotta tell me how you feel about it with your, after writing, after your first book.
• 41:11
  Jasmin McGaughey: I feel like I've forgotten everything to do with craft, and I'm like,"Well, how do you write a book?" Like, what, what's even the first step?
• 41:18
  Jasmin McGaughey: What is a book?
• 41:20
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah, what is a book?
• 41:22
  Jasmin McGaughey: Like, I've done a lot of reading, I've done editing, and I have done some writing.
• 41:27
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, but I don't know.
• 41:30
  Jasmin McGaughey: Like, I'm like, I feel like I need to go sit in a, like, what's writing 101 class again, and just feel, get, like, refreshed and re-energized- Mm and be ready to step into the unknown again,'cause maybe that's just what I need.
• 41:45
  Natasha Rai: I, I, I wonder if it's a thing around flow and, and space, because-
• 41:50
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm-hmm
• 41:50
  Natasha Rai: you know, if you're working on shorter pieces or you're doing commissioned work, like, there is a natural deadline I assume attached to those projects.
• 41:57
  Natasha Rai: Yes,
• 41:58
  Jasmin McGaughey: yes, yes.
• 41:59
  Natasha Rai: That's true.
• 41:59
  Natasha Rai: Um, in a way that if you're writing something for yourself, you can of, of course impose your own, but it's not the same.
• 42:05
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah, it's not.
• 42:06
  Jasmin McGaughey: And I did say that to my, to Alex my agent, and I was like, look, I...
• 42:10
  Jasmin McGaughey: Also because, like, I make most, most of my income comes from, like, freelance, from editing and writing, and so I'm gonna say yes to projects based on money, and not have time and space to work on my passion projects, which I, I'm not immediately gonna get paid for, or even may never get paid for.
• 42:28
  Jasmin McGaughey: So it's, it's really hard to feel comfortable prioritizing writing, you know, another, a, a fantasy novel, um, that's completely different from Moonlight and Dust when I have all these other tasks that, um, that will help me pay rent and, and be fed.
• 42:46
  Jasmin McGaughey: No.
• 42:46
  Jasmin McGaughey: D-
• 42:48
  Natasha Rai: I mean, does that- Like get to you in any way or irritate you or, yeah
• 42:53
  Jasmin McGaughey: 1,000%.
• 42:54
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 42:55
  Jasmin McGaughey: And I mean, I did say at the end of last...
• 42:57
  Jasmin McGaughey: It was like a New Year's resolution for me was going to be to stop taking on freelance work and like work on the next novel, and I've done it a little bit, but not as much as I'd like.
• 43:09
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, and yeah.
• 43:12
  Jasmin McGaughey: And so it's just, it's kind of sad, but I'm also trying to like look at it as if, okay, m- I just need a bigger break.
• 43:19
  Jasmin McGaughey: I just need to not be working on a- another novel at the moment, and maybe it's more of a thinking time and- Mm-hmm doing these other little projects.
• 43:28
  Jasmin McGaughey: So yeah.
• 43:29
  Natasha Rai: And it- it's, it's such a, it sucks so bad, like when, you know, obviously you have to live and-
• 43:35
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yes.
• 43:35
  Natasha Rai: pay rent and pay for food.
• 43:37
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah,
• 43:38
  Natasha Rai: yeah.
• 43:38
  Natasha Rai: And, uh, especially being a creative in Australia, like you just-
• 43:42
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm-hmm
• 43:42
  Natasha Rai: maybe it's not just Australia, but we live here, so let's use this as a context.
• 43:45
  Natasha Rai: But, you know, you have to just really, if it's, especially if you're earning your living through creative means or pathways- Mm-hmm that constant hustle and the- Mm especially freelancing, like you just feel like you can never say no to anything.
• 43:58
  Natasha Rai: Yeah,
• 43:59
  Jasmin McGaughey: exactly.
• 43:59
  Jasmin McGaughey: You can never say no.
• 44:01
  Jasmin McGaughey: And like, I really messed myself up with like the whole tax thing.
• 44:05
  Jasmin McGaughey: I have an accountant, but like I got a grant last year to write this novel, write the second novel, and I forgot to like, um, consider tax when I was doing my budget.
• 44:16
  Jasmin McGaughey: And so I got the grant and I was like,"Oh, hang on, like over 30% of this needs to be tax, and I can't buy all the, the things and use all of the-" Oh"the money," said I was gonna do because I'm gonna be taxed.
• 44:28
  Jasmin McGaughey: Uh, um, and so just like little things like that- I know and I try to get like ahead of the thing by like paying off my HECS, and then my accountant was like,"Oh, that doesn't count.
• 44:38
  Jasmin McGaughey: That's just like voluntary payments.
• 44:39
  Jasmin McGaughey: You still have to pay like your HECS- I know at the, in the again." So it was just like paying it twice.
• 44:47
  Natasha Rai: Exactly.
• 44:48
  Natasha Rai: So I'm, I'm not an accountant by any means, but h- speak to your accountant about income averaging.
• 44:52
  Natasha Rai: You've heard about that?
• 44:54
  Jasmin McGaughey: No.
• 44:54
  Jasmin McGaughey: What's that?
• 44:55
  Natasha Rai: Oh my God.
• 44:55
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 44:57
  Natasha Rai: Book aside.
• 44:57
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah, yeah.
• 44:58
  Natasha Rai: Um, for creatives especially- Yeah like, so as writers, we can, we are, we're a per, people of special, we're special people according to the tax laws- Mm because our income is so, um-
• 45:10
  Jasmin McGaughey: Up and down, yeah
• 45:11
  Natasha Rai: fluctu- fluctuates so much.
• 45:12
  Natasha Rai: So you can ask your accountant to do this thing where it's called income averaging, where they figure out what you might earn over three years or five years.
• 45:19
  Natasha Rai: Oh.
• 45:19
  Natasha Rai: So if you do get a grant, say one year out of the five, it's spread out over the five so you don't have to pay tax in the way that-
• 45:27
  Jasmin McGaughey: Oh, so income averaging.
• 45:30
  Natasha Rai: Yep.
• 45:31
  Natasha Rai: Speak to your accountant.
• 45:32
  Jasmin McGaughey: I will Uh,
• 45:35
  Natasha Rai: I'm just gonna plug the book deal again, because we literally just did an episode on this a few weeks ago on our last catch-up ep
• 45:41
  Jasmin McGaughey: I was listening to it Well, actually I listened to half
• 45:44
  Natasha Rai: of it We talked about tax and money.
• 45:45
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 45:45
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 45:46
  Jasmin McGaughey: You did, and I listened to half of it, but then I was like,"I'm too stressed about tax.
• 45:50
  Natasha Rai: I can't listen to this." No, no, no, it's fine.
• 45:52
  Natasha Rai: It's fine.
• 45:52
  Natasha Rai: It's just anyone who's lis- Okay anyone who's listening now, we've covered this.
• 45:54
  Natasha Rai: So find it and you'll g- you'll get all our top tips on that.
• 45:58
  Jasmin McGaughey: I mean, it's only through talking and listening to other people that you learn about things, like income averaging and things like that.
• 46:04
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um- Exactly.
• 46:04
  Natasha Rai: Exactly So, I know.
• 46:06
  Natasha Rai: I know.
• 46:06
  Natasha Rai: Um,'cause yeah, it, it's, it does suck if you get a grant how you, you know, having to put some of it away for tax when you know that maybe the next year you won't earn as much or whatever.
• 46:15
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 46:16
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 46:16
  Jasmin McGaughey: Exactly, yeah.
• 46:17
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 46:18
  Natasha Rai: So, um, tell me then in terms of, because you do work, and I know you mainly work children's YA books, but given how much I guess you s- you might be seeing of the industry-
• 46:30
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm-hmm
• 46:31
  Natasha Rai: are there trends that you're seeing in the YA or young adult, I mean, YA or middle grade children's sector- Mm compared to, say, adult books?
• 46:39
  Natasha Rai: Or anything you're hearing?
• 46:42
  Jasmin McGaughey: I don't know.
• 46:43
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, I feel like for a while there I was hearing that, and just before and while Moonlit and Dust, that YA was kind of trending down.
• 46:52
  Jasmin McGaughey: Might be trending up again.
• 46:54
  Jasmin McGaughey: I'm not too sure.
• 46:56
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm.
• 46:56
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, yeah.
• 46:58
  Jasmin McGaughey: So I, I can't say that I know of any, um, trends.
• 47:04
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, only that we...
• 47:05
  Jasmin McGaughey: I mean, it's nice to see more First Nations fiction- Oh, yeah more diverse fiction coming for younger readers.
• 47:11
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, yeah.
• 47:13
  Jasmin McGaughey: I don't know.
• 47:13
  Jasmin McGaughey: Have you heard any?
• 47:15
  Natasha Rai: Well, I mean, it's usually, it's always the dire thing of no one's reading.
• 47:19
  Jasmin McGaughey: No one's reading.
• 47:21
  Natasha Rai: AI is gonna ruin everything.
• 47:22
  Natasha Rai: Um-
• 47:22
  Jasmin McGaughey: Oh, yeah
• 47:23
  Natasha Rai: and the latest one that's been floating around, there's a few different versions, that we're publishing too many books in Australia.
• 47:29
  Natasha Rai: Oh,
• 47:29
  Jasmin McGaughey: yeah, I've seen a few articles, but I haven't read any of them yet about we're publishing too many.
• 47:35
  Natasha Rai: Apparently all the publishers are publishing too many books, and it- what it means for authors is that no one really gets much of a chance, um- Yeah.
• 47:44
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm
• 47:44
  Natasha Rai: cause their book's barely in the bookshop and they disappear.
• 47:47
  Natasha Rai: That's true.
• 47:47
  Natasha Rai: Which I get, um- Yeah but at
• 47:50
  Jasmin McGaughey: the same time-
• 47:50
  Natasha Rai: And,
• 47:51
  Jasmin McGaughey: and, yeah, and I know, like, editors and people working in-house are overworked, so underpaid- Yeah, exactly and overworked.
• 47:59
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, but I don't know if we're publishing too many books.
• 48:02
  Jasmin McGaughey: Maybe we just don't have enough readers.
• 48:04
  Jasmin McGaughey: We need, need more people reading.
• 48:06
  Natasha Rai: Well, I mean, I, I think it's also, like, maybe it's we have to have a more community approach to book-
• 48:12
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm
• 48:12
  Natasha Rai: publishing and buying and selling, because- Mm you know, like every...
• 48:16
  Natasha Rai: I love going into bookshops in different...
• 48:18
  Natasha Rai: like, especially when I'm visiting somewhere or I'm not as familiar, and it's just- Mm fascinating to me the books that you see on the shelves.
• 48:24
  Natasha Rai: Like, they're so...
• 48:25
  Natasha Rai: You...
• 48:25
  Natasha Rai: Of course you'll see some of the big names all the time, but then-
• 48:28
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah
• 48:28
  Natasha Rai: some of the s- like, au- Aussie authors or authors where you may not have known them as well, but it really comes down to what the bookseller loves.
• 48:36
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yes.
• 48:36
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 48:36
  Natasha Rai: So it's like, well, what if we had a community-led approach of here in this part of, um, Sydney lives a lot of this community.
• 48:45
  Natasha Rai: What if we stocked more of that type of book?
• 48:48
  Natasha Rai: Not because that's all they can read, but just to really- Yeah showcase or you were like- Yeah"I've noticed lots of young people around, so you could have more YA section," or a...
• 48:59
  Natasha Rai: I don't know.
• 48:59
  Natasha Rai: I don't- Mm I actually don't know, but- No, I- just an
• 49:02
  Jasmin McGaughey: idea.
• 49:02
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 49:02
  Jasmin McGaughey: I totally agree, and I think that, um- It, it's like, I mean, as always with publishing, there's a lot of assumptions that are being made behind closed doors in publishing houses that are not entirely accurate and aren't actually representative of, like, readers and what readers want or what, what readers will consume- Mm if they're properly informed and given the chance.
• 49:27
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, I got to edit an article for Griffith Review by the owners of Amplify Bookstore in Melbourne.
• 49:35
  Natasha Rai: Oh, yeah?
• 49:36
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, yeah.
• 49:37
  Jasmin McGaughey: And they talk about, like, you know, they're a wonderful bookstore who only stock people of color- That's right.
• 49:43
  Jasmin McGaughey: That's right, yeah and they started just online.
• 49:45
  Jasmin McGaughey: They had so many people telling them that they wouldn't last, that they needed to stock white authors as well, and now they have a physical store.
• 49:52
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 49:52
  Jasmin McGaughey: And they talk about, like, how they wish they could There was more of, like, a In the article they talk about more how they could wish they could talk to publishers and it was a bit more, like, community collaboratively focused- Mm because their numbers are not gonna look like the big chains, um, because of what they're stocking, what they're not stocking.
• 50:13
  Jasmin McGaughey: But their numbers are still gonna show what people are really interested in-
• 50:17
  Natasha Rai: Yeah
• 50:17
  Jasmin McGaughey: um, if, if given more
• 50:20
  Natasha Rai: shelf space.
• 50:20
  Natasha Rai: And, and, and, and obviously even with that remit or that kind of, um- purpose.
• 50:26
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 50:26
  Natasha Rai: They're obviously making enough money- Yeah to be able to do it- To be in business in a physical location.
• 50:31
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 50:32
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah, exactly.
• 50:33
  Jasmin McGaughey: Exactly.
• 50:34
  Jasmin McGaughey: And-
• 50:34
  Natasha Rai: Actually, M- M- Marina was the copy editor for Onslaught, so- Oh,
• 50:38
  Jasmin McGaughey: was she?
• 50:38
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, yeah.
• 50:40
  Jasmin McGaughey: Oh.
• 50:40
  Jasmin McGaughey: Oh, she's lovely.
• 50:41
  Jasmin McGaughey: Both of them, yeah, they're
• 50:42
  Natasha Rai: so lovely.
• 50:42
  Natasha Rai: They, they are, yeah.
• 50:43
  Natasha Rai: They're very smart, too.
• 50:44
  Natasha Rai: But, but even just, just, just on that point about, um, like community-led, like the idea...
• 50:50
  Natasha Rai: And so I think that I, the problem with too many books being published is booksellers don't ever get a chance to-
• 50:55
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm
• 50:55
  Natasha Rai: engage or really get to know.
• 50:57
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 50:57
  Natasha Rai: I think if we had that...
• 50:59
  Natasha Rai: See, I reckon publish as many books as you want- Mm but then you can just really be very targeted about-
• 51:05
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yes
• 51:06
  Natasha Rai: you know, here this, this place, this small shop has this- Yeah shop space, so I think they would be really good at selling X, Y, Z.
• 51:13
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 51:14
  Natasha Rai: Maybe we should open a bookshop.
• 51:15
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah, yeah, exact- Like, I w- that's my dream, to open a bookshop.
• 51:19
  Jasmin McGaughey: That's my dream, too.
• 51:21
  Jasmin McGaughey: Oh, is it?
• 51:21
  Jasmin McGaughey: Oh, there you go.
• 51:22
  Jasmin McGaughey: Hey.
• 51:23
  Jasmin McGaughey: Because it was one of the most enjoyable...
• 51:26
  Jasmin McGaughey: I, I used to work at QBD in Darwin, and it was one of the most enjoyable experiences ever, and I learned so much about what was popular and what customers wanted.
• 51:35
  Jasmin McGaughey: And customers w- always came in asking for First Nations books, always thinking they only had nonfiction to, like, that was the only thing that they could, um- Choose
• 51:46
  Natasha Rai: from?
• 51:46
  Jasmin McGaughey: Could choose from.
• 51:47
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 51:47
  Jasmin McGaughey: And'cause I was so passionate about it, I was always like,"Oh, I'll help them.
• 51:50
  Jasmin McGaughey: I'll help them." And we would have a stack of books for them, and they're like,"My gosh, I didn't know I had so much to choose from." Like, why would you know that?
• 51:58
  Jasmin McGaughey: Because we're not, you know, if there is- So clever a First Nations shelf in a bookstore, it's, like, minuscule.
• 52:04
  Jasmin McGaughey: It's tiny,
• 52:04
  Natasha Rai: yeah.
• 52:05
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 52:05
  Natasha Rai: And
• 52:05
  Jasmin McGaughey: most of the titles are nonfiction or-
• 52:07
  Natasha Rai: Yeah
• 52:08
  Jasmin McGaughey: you know.
• 52:08
  Jasmin McGaughey: So it's, yeah.
• 52:10
  Jasmin McGaughey: There's a lot of power in bookselling, but, um, yeah, they definitely need, need the help from publishers.
• 52:15
  Natasha Rai: Exactly.
• 52:16
  Natasha Rai: They need that support.
• 52:17
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm.
• 52:17
  Natasha Rai: So, um, I'm just aware that we are nearly out of time.
• 52:21
  Natasha Rai: Um, so your writing routine at the moment is mainly kind of built around projects and work that you have
• 52:30
  Jasmin McGaughey: to- Kind of nonexistent
• 52:31
  Natasha Rai: deliver.
• 52:32
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 52:33
  Jasmin McGaughey: Like...
• 52:35
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah, it's, it's task-based, just trying to deliver- Yeah, yeah stuff, and, um- Yeah, and like eventually, like I- we've just moved into this new place.
• 52:46
  Jasmin McGaughey: I put all my books up, and I've like been really like trying to be intentional with the space and making it cozy and, um, feel creative.
• 52:55
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm.
• 52:55
  Jasmin McGaughey: And so eventually I really would love my writing routine to look like, um, like it's just not h- I mean, being more structured and having maybe admin days, admin mornings, and then- Mm writing, planning, maybe one day of freelance tasks, and then-
• 53:13
  Natasha Rai: Mm
• 53:14
  Jasmin McGaughey: Toowoomba has beautiful cafes.
• 53:15
  Jasmin McGaughey: I want to feel okay enough to go and just write in them for a little bit.
• 53:20
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um-
• 53:21
  Natasha Rai: Mm
• 53:22
  Jasmin McGaughey: and I only work at Baroona two days a week, so I have...
• 53:26
  Jasmin McGaughey: I- I'm almost there.
• 53:27
  Jasmin McGaughey: I just need to like get over a few more freelance tasks, and then I can do that.
• 53:31
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 53:32
  Natasha Rai: So, so in, in terms of your routine once you look into setting up something- Mm you work better with like,"Okay, this day is for this, this day is for that." Is that how you like to work?
• 53:44
  Jasmin McGaughey: I think so.
• 53:45
  Jasmin McGaughey: Or I, I work better with like- without knowing, because I work better with deadlines, if I have deadlines for other things, I just feel like I really can't get into that creative flow.
• 53:55
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, although I was, for Sydney Writers Festival, I got to do, um, an event with, um, Tigger Scoma who wrote, um, Eternal...
• 54:05
  Jasmin McGaughey: What's her fourth book?
• 54:06
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mortal Duck and Eternal Room, which is a black vampire series, which is awesome.
• 54:10
  Jasmin McGaughey: And she was doing these, like, sprints, and so we did some in the green room together of she did, was it 20 minutes on or 30?
• 54:19
  Jasmin McGaughey: 20 minutes on, five minutes off, like Pomodoro, but a little bit longer, and just put her headphones in and we were in the busy, like, green room doing that, and I was like,"Oh, maybe it's this simple.
• 54:30
  Jasmin McGaughey: Maybe I don't need to be, like, setting up this whole everything has to be perfect before I write.
• 54:35
  Jasmin McGaughey: Maybe it's just stealing 20 minutes a day or 20..." You know?
• 54:39
  Jasmin McGaughey: So yeah, maybe I'll do that.
• 54:41
  Natasha Rai: Is that what you- Interesting.
• 54:43
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 54:43
  Natasha Rai: Well, I mean, at, at, at the moment, like you, because I have a lot of other work things- Mm to get through, I've been noticing that I'm not writing as much as I'd like.
• 54:54
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 54:54
  Natasha Rai: And like you, I'm like,"Oh, I need a full hour." Then I'm like- Yeah"But do I, though?
• 54:58
  Natasha Rai: Do I?" Yeah.
• 54:58
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 54:59
  Natasha Rai: Because I find even if it's 20 minutes or quick in and out-
• 55:03
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm
• 55:04
  Natasha Rai: if, if, if there's consistency for me, like or if I try and at least hit every day or every second day, I don't have to spend as much time remembering what was the last thing I did and where I'm up to.
• 55:15
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 55:15
  Natasha Rai: Exactly.
• 55:15
  Natasha Rai: 'Cause that's, that's what takes so long- Yeah'cause you're like,"What did I...
• 55:17
  Natasha Rai: What?" Yeah.
• 55:17
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 55:18
  Jasmin McGaughey: Definitely.
• 55:18
  Jasmin McGaughey: And to get back into, like, the-
• 55:20
  Natasha Rai: That.
• 55:20
  Natasha Rai: So-
• 55:21
  Jasmin McGaughey: The, yeah Yeah excitement, the flow.
• 55:23
  Natasha Rai: Exactly.
• 55:24
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 55:26
  Natasha Rai: Um, so, so what, what do you like to read?
• 55:27
  Natasha Rai: 'Cause it sounds like you read a lot.
• 55:30
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, I love, yeah, lots of different...
• 55:33
  Jasmin McGaughey: I love First Nations fiction, non-fiction, poetry, but my favorite is probably fantasy romance, romantic fantasy, romantasy, whatever you wanna call it.
• 55:43
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm-hmm.
• 55:44
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, definitely developed from my YA love of things like Twilight and, um, all of those kind of, um, millennial, um- Yeah romance fantasy books that were popular.
• 55:56
  Natasha Rai: So do you read adult and YA fantasy and
• 55:59
  Jasmin McGaughey: romantasy for example?
• 55:59
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yes.
• 55:59
  Jasmin McGaughey: Although more adult recently.
• 56:01
  Jasmin McGaughey: I think with b- BookTok and everything, I'm just getting so many more recommendations.
• 56:05
  Jasmin McGaughey: I never used to know where to look, um, as I was, like, leaving teenage years- Mm.
• 56:10
  Jasmin McGaughey: Mm into adulthood.
• 56:11
  Jasmin McGaughey: I just was like,"I just know YA.
• 56:12
  Jasmin McGaughey: I'll just read there because I know the authors and I know what covers I love.
• 56:16
  Jasmin McGaughey: I, I know-
• 56:17
  Natasha Rai: Mm
• 56:17
  Jasmin McGaughey: I know what to grab." Um, but now with BookTok and, you know, all these kinds of things, I feel like I've been introduced to so many, so, so much more, like, adult, um, works in that kind of same genre.
• 56:30
  Natasha Rai: Amazing.
• 56:31
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 56:31
  Natasha Rai: That sounds good.
• 56:32
  Natasha Rai: So final question.
• 56:34
  Jasmin McGaughey: Yeah.
• 56:34
  Natasha Rai: What is or are your...
• 56:36
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, what is your top tip for emerging writers?
• 56:41
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, okay.
• 56:44
  Jasmin McGaughey: No, no.
• 56:45
  Jasmin McGaughey: My top tip is to, mm, uh, write what you love.
• 56:52
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, I've done a few, like, um, sessions with young people this year, um, and I've found that a lot of them are really, really worried about copying someone else's work, about being cliche, about their work not being unique enough, and, um, I just really tried to tell them that don't worry about that.
• 57:13
  Jasmin McGaughey: Like, it's not all on you.
• 57:15
  Jasmin McGaughey: Just write what you love.
• 57:17
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, obviously don't, don't do plagiarism, that's not cool, but, like, it's okay if you're writing about vampires'cause y- the way you're gonna write about vampires is completely different to the way someone else is gonna do it, and just really lean on what you love.
• 57:31
  Jasmin McGaughey: Um, because if you love it, then there are gonna be readers who love it as well, I think.
• 57:36
  Natasha Rai: No, that's, that's excellent advice.
• 57:38
  Natasha Rai: Um, I really like that tip because it's true.
• 57:40
  Natasha Rai: Because y- even if, even if you copy, even if you copy- Yeah someone's structure or someone's kind of outline, it's still gonna be your own take on it, your own way- Yeah of expressing it.
• 57:51
  Jasmin McGaughey: Exact- And, like, I mean, if we look at fan fiction, like, there's a reason that the fan fiction community is so big, is because we people build on story and on- Yeah creativity, and it doesn't all have to be completely unique.
• 58:06
  Jasmin McGaughey: I don't, don't know if it can be, anyway.
• 58:08
  Natasha Rai: Exactly.
• 58:10
  Natasha Rai: But, um, Jasmine McGaughey, thank you so much for joining me, and I It was such, it was such a pleasure to talk to you.
• 58:15
  Jasmin McGaughey: Oh, so lovely to talk to you, too.
• 58:17
  Jasmin McGaughey: And thanks for having me.
• 58:18
  Natasha Rai: You're welcome.
• 58:22
  Tina Strachan: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Book Deal Podcast.
• 58:25
  Tina Strachan: If you are enjoying the pod, we'd really appreciate you following or sharing the show in your podcast directory, checking us out on Instagram and Facebook, or supporting us through our Patreon community at patreon.com/thebookdealpodcast