Latest / VOOM Performance Podcast / Run Forever: Damian Hall on Building a Training Philosophy That Lasts

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Run Forever: Damian Hall on Building a Training Philosophy That Lasts · VOOM Performance Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a question in context and rebuilding bravery on descent, especially when coming back from an injury.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I do think the secret to good descending is in your brain and trying to override that over caution that our brain is giving us.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think it is, yeah, if if someone's come back from injury, especially if it's an injury sustained on a descent, it's it it yeah, maybe it's a patience and it may be progressively sort of going on more technical or steeper terrain.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, trying to let go, trying to let the brakes off.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Let the brakes off because ultimately that's kind of free, it's free speed because it's gravity, it's not, it's not your fitness.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: So brakes off because you know it's free speed.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so the next one is at what point in an ultra does a pork pie or a vegan pie officially become sports nutrition?
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Over 50 miles.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Boom Performance podcast.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Mel Barry, and today I'm joined by Ultra Runner, coach, author, and campaigner Damien Hall.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about staying strong and adventurous as we age, from training and recovery to fueling a mindset and the long distance races that kept him inspired.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: You've been a football journalist, a marathon in a toilet charity runner, you're a UK athletics coach and now three times author, including the brilliant Run Forever book.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: For anyone that doesn't know you, just tell us a little bit about yourself in your words and what has running meant to you and what how does that actually fit in for running for good?
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks for having me on.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I guess I'm yeah, I'm a 50-year-old father of two.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: I suppose a former journalist.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a full-time coach now and a runner and an author.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, what does running mean to me?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: It means a hell of a lot.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: I uh I'm a sort of late a midlife crisis runner, really.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: I hadn't really well, it yeah, I hadn't discovered how great it can be till my mid-late thirties.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and then I just fell head over heels and got really carried away and sort of went from, yeah, that first marathon rest of the toilet four years later.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was representing Greg Brennan in the trail running team, which is pretty crazy at the age of 40, which is pretty crazy now when I look back.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: But that's how much I sort of fell into it and fell in love with it.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um but it still means a great deal.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's become it's become almost everything to me on danger of it meaning too much, really.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's great, isn't it?
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Running.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Very much so.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you run two charities, you set them up, so Inter, Ultra, and Green Runners.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: What was the thought behind that?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Why did you want to be able to create two charities that can make great impact?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, the older one is is the Green Runners.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was that I was getting a group of us together, just any runners who seem to worry about it.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: It was the same time Extinct from Rebellion, we're doing these brilliant protests, and it and it was kind of realizing that running is you know can be part of the problem.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: And just getting those runners together, including people like Dan Lawson and Jasmine Paris and uh Jim Shane only actually was involved early on.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, for a while we didn't know what to do, but someone said, Let's form a club.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: And a running club was like, Oh yeah, that seems so obvious now.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we did that, and then it really took off, and we got over 3,000 members around the world.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, yeah, please come and visit us, please come and join us.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: And we're very much about, you know, getting people together and meeting people where they are, and there's there's no kind of oh, you have to be vegan, you're not allowed to fly anymore, you're not allowed any new shoes.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we're nothing like that.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and I guess we're just a community for people who worry about our climate and ecological emergency, and hopefully some actionable, you know, hesitate to say solutions, but some things we can all be working on together and on our own to to to to help.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: And into ultra is a newer thing.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think we only just turned three, and that's more about I suppose accessibility.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I guess we tweaked that unfortunately most ultra-marathon start lines, most people look like me without the uh without the comedy haircuts.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: But basically, yeah, middle-aged, middle-class white guys, and it's like that's not really reflective of wider society.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, there are several different barriers to entry, but certainly one of them is financial.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you yeah, you don't yeah, well, even even to go for a run, right?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: You need those shoes, which are gonna be over£100 new, and and do you need a watch?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, technically you don't need a watch, but you kind of need a watch, right?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that they're not cheap either.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then yeah, that the the costs when you get into ultras, the costs really mount up because of the mandatory kit, which is which is often a safety thing and worth having.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: But you could be looking at two or three thousand pounds to do your first ultra, really.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that's you know, that's not realistic for for quite a lot of people.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: So so we've managed to get a bit of a fun together, weren't for donations, but more than that, I would say, you know, if you think if you're listening and you think that might apply to you, that you find it financially difficult to do these races, or you have a friend, or you just want to tell people in your running club, then yeah, please do and look for our website.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm pretty sure it's into ultra.org.uk, and you apply by the website.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: We've helped uh I think it's about 160 people now in various ways.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, we're doing what we can to just yeah, make things a bit hopefully a bit more accessible, a bit more diverse in our in our sport.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's about the financial barriers as well as a lot of the ethnicity barriers that you've briefly touched on.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: But let's take that step back to 2011.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: You're 36, you're a journalist.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think by your own words, you're out of shape, and you sign up to the Bath Half Marathon, and you then went on to do a full marathon in Brighton.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: But instead of just doing it in your running kit, you decided to dress up as the toilet and raise money for water aid, and then you went on to do London.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: What was your thought behind that?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And second part of the question is are you gonna go back to beat the record, which is 257?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, my that was my marathon debut.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: I ran 317.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: So could I in the theory I think I could beat it?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: It would depend a bit on the costume, how heavy.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's a while ago now.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: I remember finding it inconvenient, but not as inconvenient as you might think.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was quite cleverly crafted.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I I mean I got a charity place, that was the seemed like the easiest way in, and and water aid seemed like a good cause.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And they offered basically either a tap, you ran dressed as a tap or dressed as a toilet.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I just thought, my friends are much you have to raise, I think, a brand back then.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: I felt my friends are much more likely to sponsor me if I run dressed as a toilet, and there's more, you know, there's more opportunity for toilet humour.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: You've got the runs, mate, you look a bit flushed, mate, etc.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that I was it really.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it seems I remember just before the marathon feeling a bit for sprayed, actually, because I really got into running it.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: I really wanted to set a good time and feeling like actually this is gonna hold me back.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, I still really remember that, you know, incredible atmosphere at Bright.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then people were just super, you know, super supportive.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you're wearing a costume, actually, you get a bonus support, probably double support.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was it was an incredible experience.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, no immediate plans for going for record, but who knows?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there's a V, could there be a V50 toilet record?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna talk a lot about the books that you've written, and we're gonna start with Run Forever, which is a which is a great book, and it's about the secrets of becoming an ageless athlete.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start with a few statistics and parts of stats.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about the bad and then go on to talk about the the good.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: But starting with the bad, what were some of the things in terms of decline that really surprised you on how much we do deteriorate over the decades?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was it was fairly depressing.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think scientifically there are like 12 different things that happen to us as we age.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: I say different, they are kind of interconnected, but the big ones for me was probably actually the bone health decline, more so in women around menopause, and probably the muscle wastage was quite kind of scary as well.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and then later on, we're looking at you know, sort of losing our balance and and proprioception and uh coordination and things if we don't, yeah, stay active and do and do do smart, but also like immunity to disease, immunity to illness, like all these there's so many things.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously the classic things that we laugh about, like hearing and eyesight and hair loss, and which is um, you know, not spoken about enough, actually, the the way hair stops growing in the places we want it and starts growing in the places we don't want it.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it was more just how many, how many things and how it was gonna affect everything.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, it was quite it was fairly depressing at first.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: But then, and the the book is split into kind of three broad chapters, like the bad news, the good news, and then the ugly news, which is kind of the here's the things you've got to do.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the bad news, yeah, it was it was kind of depressing.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: But then you look around, and even at the winter spine rust this year, you know, the two winners, 53 and 55, there was an 80-year-old finished, an 80-year-old woman finished an Iron Man last last year, and and and an 80-year-old finished man finished bad water last year, like an incredibly tough Oxford Mountain in America, under 35 miles.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: So there is inspiration to be had all around us.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and then there's the kind of good news is the headline for the good news is that kind of a lot of the science is actually outdated because, well, partly for starters, it's often done on on young white men on bikes, or it's done on sedentary people.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: But most of the aging science is on sedentary people.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: So the the at the science on athletes aging actually shows quite different numbers.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: For example, the sort of VO2 max decline, which is one of the headline sort of declines for runners, is about 10% a decade for sedentary people.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: But for runners, if you keep doing VO2 max, it's probably one or two percent.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and and VO2 max is also one of the great, one of the most sort of well-established markers for your own sort of health span and longevity, along with sort of grip strength, which relates to strength training, which we'll get on to no doubt.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: But uh so actually keeping running fast regularly is one of the best things we can be doing.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, good news.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there was lots of good news, and then it's kind of yeah, the ugly, what do we need to do?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Do we need to do things?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: And what is within our control?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: So there are so many.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: We talked obviously earlier about BO2 max, we talked about not stopping, we talked about lifting kind of heavy.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a person, male or female, are in the 50s, what what are the things that are within our control and the actions we can take to carry on doing what we've always done?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, various, you know, sort of health scientists argue various aspects of changing of aging, sorry, are we can we can slow them, pause them, and even reduce them, sorry, reverse them.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's on a cellular level, so it's it's tricky to sort of monitor them exactly.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: But we know that like our biological age isn't the same as our chronological age.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: So chronological age being you know the candles on well, the candles we no longer put on our cake.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas our biological age, to get a little bit serious at the moment, if for a second, like in cancer patients and some studies, the tissues they remove is is biologically older than the chronological age of a person, as in its age more rapidly than the person.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: But in you know, athletic people, people who are you know get out and and um you know keep keeping doing fitness, keep doing activity, various studies showed, well, for running in particular, there were three studies.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: One showed age reversing by about nine years, one by like 12 years, and one by 19 years.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: The 19 years is a little bit, you know, a little bit less robust.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: But then even a strength, a study on strength, I think it was eight or nine years, like age reversing on a cellular level.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot we can do.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: And also, there's a study on Swedish twins that showed like only 70 to 90 percent of aging is in our is in our control, as in only about 10, 10 to maybe 30% is genetic.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: So there's sometimes a feeling of, oh, well, you know, my parents, this happened to them.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that might only be th up to 30% true.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of it is in our hands, a lot of it.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: And we see well, I've a nice example to round this off actually is the Olympic, the first Olympics, the marathon, the winning time of the the marathon there, 258, run I think by a 24-year-old.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: That was beaten in the early 2000s by a 70, a guy over 70, the Canadian Ed Whitlock.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: But but that shows how things can move and how, yeah, better lifestyle choices, better knowledge, and all around us, people are kind of defying their age, both in in in in and outside of sports.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's a really exciting time, actually.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: As a woman in her 50s, I'm excited about what I've changed and it still enables me to be able to do the things that I've done.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and one of the things that I've always done since my teenage is strength training.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you've obviously got two co-authors in there, of which Pete Stables is one of them, and he works with you on the strength and conditioning factor.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're a masters athlete and you're listening to this right now, what's the one session, one habit that you should do?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Why should I strength training?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because I hear so many athletes, whether or not they're runners or doing any specific sport, is it's almost missing a session versus this should be the non-negotiable sessions in your week, shouldn't it?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it's so important.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: So the, I mean, the headline stuff is that you know, we're gonna suffer muscle wastage, but obviously strengthening our muscles is doing the opposite.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it also is helping our bone health, it's also helping hormone regulation, red blood cell production, immunity to disease, even, including, say, diabetes, because muscles are a glucose sink.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, lots of good reasons, and it'll improve us as runners.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're trying to maintain that speed that we have for as long as possible, you know, um, and and strength getting stronger is proven to uh sort of yeah help with speed preservation, better economy.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: So there are so many reasons to do it, you know, health-wise and athletics-wise.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I must admit most runners, yeah, don't love the idea, you know, we want to go running, right?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I've become I've got I've I've become to quite enjoy it.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm purely get competitive with myself.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not I don't know or care what anyone else can can lift, and what I can lift isn't isn't huge, I I'm sure, but it's improving, you know.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm competitive about against myself.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: I can get PBs, I can't get PBs in running anymore, but I can get PBs on the you know with a back squat uh or on the leg press.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that that's actually really exciting for me.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Pull-ups.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I would say yeah, I think Pete would say yes, two, two, two quality tests with a week is really good.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: You have a bit of different I think Stacey Sims probably says three.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean there's a whole debate whether men or women should be strength training differently.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Stacey Sims would say yes.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Pete thought there wasn't sort of strong enough.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Pete's a man, but uh wasn't strong enough, you know, sort of evidence yet.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and anyway, the first bit is probably let's all get strength training, you know, before getting into maybe the nitty-gritty bits.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I'd say twice a week.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: What I tend to do is about 45 minutes in the gym that Pete sets me, and then an easier session later in the week at home with my sort of more limited equipment, which is probably more like half an hour.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: But it it probably is the classic things that most people would imagine, you know, definitely squats, definitely you start with the legs, the bigger muscles, yeah, squats, the deadlift style things, you know, the the main muscles of the lower body, but then a fair bit of upper body and core as well.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I've yeah, I've come to really enjoy it.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, I've meant to do some today, even straight after this podcast.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: So if I say it on here, I can't I can't duck out of it.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the same.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and and for me, I know that I've had a total hip replacement.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: I have over the last six months had gluteal and hamstring tendinopathy that I do my strength training before I run because the activation is a really, really important thing.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And if you a runner, what would three great exercises be that you could do at home pre-a run to help with that activation piece?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're stepping slightly out of my qualifications here.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, um, but it's gonna probably be, you know, most people are sitting down too much, so it's gonna be, including myself, I'm in a standing now, but I have been sitting a lot today.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be, you know, hip and glute-related things.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: So the the T-spine lunge exercise is a brilliant one for people to look up.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: I would just do some body squats as well, probably, um, you know, really get that good glute activation.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'd I'd certainly do those two, and yeah, maybe some sort of lateral leg swings or something to sort of uh get things going.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, there's plenty in the books for people to do at home or in the gym.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's great, as you said, within that chapter that you have with Pete, there's loads of really good, actionable exercises that people can do either in the gym at the home.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the second person that was part of the book is Renee McGregor.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: We did a podcast with Rini talking about sports nutrition, and this is very much focused on perimenopause and menopause.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Why for you was it really important to include that within the section of your book?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I just you know, women have historically been totally totally overlooked in sports science.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm I'm laughing, but it's not it's not funny, but it's it's it's laughable how bad, you know, how bad that has been.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: And as Stacey Sims was, you know, pioneered her her way.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was listening to her on a podcast talking about how, you know, her first bit of science was sort of overlooked because it was, you know, too complicated or something, something like that.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was almost like, well, it's a bit simpler with the male version, let's stick with that kind of thing.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a bit like, well, hold on.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it was really important also that I wasn't gonna mansplay menopause to people as well.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: So right from the beginning, it was like, you know, we we need a a female expert to to do the menopause chapter.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, Renee's a friend.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but yeah, she's she's of of of of of our age as well.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: So she's having her own her own journey there.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I don't want to pretend I know what it's like for people, but I um yeah, there are f nine case studies in the book, and there are five of those are female, and and each of them talked a little bit about how menopause has been for them as well, which hopefully is quite enlightening, especially say Susie Chan was very uh very honest about how tough how tough she's found it.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And one or two other of the, you know, yeah, female athletes had yeah, some good maybe some good tips or some good stories about that.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: But ultimately Rini has, yeah, some sort of well, some good advice, some good advice, I think.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: But it's just such an unpredictable time as is yeah, is sort of what I gather.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's a whole chapter dedicated towards that.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: And if you haven't listened to episode one with Raini, then go back and have a listen to everything that she has there.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: And let's talk about managing training load for masters athletes.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: I know that a lot of people look at volume, and we talked earlier about that.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: How do I make sure that I don't overload, end up with an injury, and are there higher risks for athletes in their 40s, 50s, and onwards?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we we do believe we become a little bit more injury risk, you know, it ri it risk of injury does increase and recovery is slower.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that might be just recovery from a run, but it might be recovery from an injury as well.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: So so yeah, we have to be more conscious of that.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and depending on someone's, you know, training history, um, it may be that that a a reduction of volume is a sensible thing, keeping in the keeping in the quality, but maybe switching.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm yeah, I probably run 10 miles a week less now than I was two or three years ago.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and but I still do the same training overall.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: I I switch them for cross-training.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I still do the same volume pretty much, but it's just less less impact on the joints, really, and the and the and the tendons.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: And tendons do get a bit affected by age and and yeah, they're they're a l a lot a little bit less, you know, reliable.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: So how does someone know?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's a great question.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: I I can't give you an exact answer for that, but I would say if you feel like, you know, if you're in your late 40s, early 50s, and you just feel like, I don't know, you're picking up more niggles, you're a bit more tired, you're not really recovering as much, depending on your training.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're, you know, someone who's been training six days a week, you know, consider if it's worth switching out one or two.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: In Joe Freel's book, Fast After Fifty, he he loves the idea of like a sort of two days recovery after each challenging run.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: A challenging run is either a long run or a you know, a run with intensity intervals.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: But two days of recover the recovery, it could be an easy run or it could be cross-training, or it could be complete rest.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: So there's sort of different levers to play with.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean two days off.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: So there are different, yeah, there are different, you know, patterns and and and choices in there.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: I guess if in doubt, I mean I'm a coach, so I'm gonna say if in doubt, maybe go to a coach.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: But uh but yeah, I would say if someone's stuck in a pattern of getting injured, yeah, consider what you're doing and whether there's something.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And do you see more people in their 50s DNFing because they're not adapting, or are they just not able to continue to do the distance or the speed that they might have done?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, I don't think I see that.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's an argument in the book actually of sort of uh the age advantage because I was getting a bit fed up reading about kind of as you get old it's all bad.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I was thinking, well, hold on, we've got all this accumulated experience.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like experience is is a good thing, and certainly in my end of the sport where you know we're out for 24 hours, 48 hours, then experience is huge.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we're not as fast, perhaps, as we were, maybe we lack a bit of power, but the accumulation of experience, and then that might lead to greater, you know.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: I discussed this with the sports psychologist Josie Perry in the book.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it might lead to more patience, more perspective, better at problem solving.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly Ian Keith in the book, the sort of record-breaking Irish ultra runner and he's won the spine race four times.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: He says everything about racing is better now.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: He's in his mid to late fifties now.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: He says every yeah, he says everything is better except for speed.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: So he can't the truth is he's no longer competitive at the front where he used to be, but everything else is better.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: So problems, well, things that would have been big problems are much more easily solved.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: He has a much more enjoyable time.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Which I think, I think, yeah, I I think it's almost just a bit of a mindset change of of thinking, well, some you know, some things about aging are actually a huge advantage.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and I love the last chapter, and I need to sign it as well.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: I am an ageless ace, the manifesto.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm definitely gonna be signing that when I when I get to it, and I'll read the first parts of it.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: I will not go gentle into that good night.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: I am older, but I am not old.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very much about mindset, isn't it?
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Is we compare ourselves to others, and I often talk about comparison as the thief of joy.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: We we're just in a different decade.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: We've got opportunities to be able to train differently, do differently, and take on different challenges that we might not have ever thought about in our 20s.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so there was uh probably the thing that surprised me the most in the book actually was looking into the psychology of aging.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: And uh there's a it's back in 1979 now, but there's a Harvard University study that uh I'll give you the shorter version, but it but it it got some people to live for about a week as if they're 20 years younger, making them watch films from from you know two decades previous, news events, music, and discuss them as if they were happening now.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: And 63% of of those people improved in sort of physic physic physiological markers, so even eyesight, even inflammation, even joint arthritis and stuff, all improved, even cognitive tests.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: So um, and there are studies showing the opposite, actually, people who are negative about aging do seem to do seem to die sooner.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: So so the way you would think about yourself and your age is is really important.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and I would at the same time, yeah, there's got to be a bit of realism of okay, I can't, yeah, I can't quite do 100 mile weeks anymore.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Although there is someone interviewed in the book who was still running, I think, 130 mile weeks in his in his uh, how old was he?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe in his 70s, but but for most people that's not wise.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: But uh yes, so there's a there's a dose of realism of I probably need to do things differently.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I would really encourage people, yeah, you might need new goals because being the fastest, going for your lifetime PB probably isn't realistic anymore.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Depending, you know, if you're new to running, maybe it is.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: But so it's it's it's it could be PBs for different like eras or or I suppose age categories.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um but it might be, yeah, new adventures.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say, you know, if you haven't done longer stuff yet, why not come and try it?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because not many people care much about the time.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you run 100K, you know, that's a massive achievement.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: No one really knows whether 12 hours is good, 18 Hours is good.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't even have any, I'm not even really sure.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's just, you know, having that big long adventure.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it can be a time for new and new adventures.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that new adventure piece is is really interesting.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a journey that I've been on.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I've done 150K, uh, I did that last year.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: But through volunteering at UTMB Snowdonia, I have signed up to Ark of Atrition.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really excited about doing that for many hours in the day.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: But let's go on to talk about fueling.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure fueling for you has changed massively.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: How has your day-to-day nutrition changed since your 30s?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: What about protein timing?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Any carb tolerance and any specific things that you've learned through your recovery of nutrition as well?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, really McGregor, Ready McGregor's message actually is that like many of these sort of downsides to aging can be offset with an optimal diet.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: But then her next line is kind of like, but that's assuming we're on the optimal diet.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: And what the optimal diet means is it is a mixed, balanced diet.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and, you know, yeah, lots of carbohydrate at every meal and snack.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Protein, yeah, is the next the next big one.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: And we need to make sure that's spread through the day.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you if you sort of neglect protein throughout the day and then sit down and have a whole chicken or a big bowl of lentils in my case at dinner, a lot of that won't actually be digested.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got to, yeah, we've got to spread it through the day and sort of give it.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's around roughly around sort of 30 grams an hour is a is is a is a sort of a ballpark idea.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but most of us, there are calculations in the book and in Readie's books.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm aiming for about sort of 110, 120 grams a day.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Stacey Sims would probably say more.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: It depends on your, you know, your body weight and so on.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: But but the key is to spread it through the day, they like the carbs.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then the last one is the last big one really is yeah, micronutrients and and getting the right off the top of my head, I can't remember all the the key ones, but it's, you know, certainly vitamin D, omega-3, and you know, iron and but really hopefully if people are eating, you know, adequate fruit and vegetables and maybe some oily fish or an equivalent, you know, they should be in in the right so it so rini is definitely very much a kind of don't go shopping for supplements, try and you know, go back to the basics and just have a balanced, mixed diet, really, and do the basics well.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: And for you, what does that look like day in, day out, week in, week out?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: If it's a an average training week, what does your diet and fueling look like?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, firstly, I'm one of those annoying vegans, and then secondly, I'm quite un, what's the word?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Unadventurous really.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: When I find things I like, I I tend to stick to them.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: So breakfast is the time I struggle a bit for protein, but I I just absolutely love nut butter on toast with a bit of banana on top.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, there's a bit of protein in nut butter, but probably not 30 grams.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: So nearly always breakfast is that with ample tea.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then lunch is normally, I mean, today it was beans on toast, you know, getting a getting some protein in that way.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Or it might be some leftovers from last last night's dinner.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then dinner is is gonna have you usually tofu or lentils or or or sort of meat substitutes.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: But then I will definitely take in some protein powders as well.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: I find I I'm also a bit like I'm not a massive foodie in terms of sort of making the time to cook things properly.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm more like, oh, I'm hungry, it's dinner time.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: So more instant, yeah, things like protein powders are pretty useful to me.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that might be yeah, but I might stick them in a nice, you know, a sort of vegan yogurt or something like that, uh, with a bit of fruit or something.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, along those lines.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: Along those lines.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: You the you're the master of multi-day, multi-stage races.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: What does that look like when it comes to event day?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: How do you make sure that you keep yourself fueled?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: And and what are the lessons that you've learned over what the last two decades?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, fueling's it's so kind of simple on paper and so difficult in practice.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's probably the biggest ongoing experiment in this sport, and and definitely the better I fueled, the better I performed.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And when I was getting into this sport, yeah, I mean, one of the messages at the time was like almost like, yeah, well, low carb, high fat, like, you know, go out fasted, run for four hours on just a bit of water, then if you're really hungry, have a little bit of cheese and an almond and and crack on.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of people got quite unwell from that, actually.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it was quite dangerous.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I was, yeah, I I was, I did find that a bit seductive at the time, but we're talking 10 years ago.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I found I feel lucky to have escaped that sort of era and really never, you know, Rini was always like, no, we definitely need lots of carbohydrates.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: And nowadays, we're in a bit of a high fueling, uh, sorry, a high carb sort of era.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly, yeah, I'm running long runs if I'm fueling them well, like I'm running them better, I'm recovering better.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: But then you're also tummy training for the race.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: So there's three reasons at least to fuel long runs.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of what it what I actually fuel with, I mean come race day, it's a mix, really.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'd say a 50-mile race or less, to me, that's mostly sugars, uh, mostly gels.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm going longer than that, I yeah, I get pretty, pretty fed up for that stuff.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I want some real food.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it might be what's available at the aid stations, it might be some sandwiches, might be some pot noodles.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: All pot noodle flavours are vegan.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, all sorts, really.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever's kind of whatever's available.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, for I find if I want to go a long way, it's a mixture of some sugars but real food.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it really could be anything.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: It could be you know curried sandwiches.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh on the spine race, there's a there's a famous lasagna from the Alston checkpoint.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it but it's almost like whatever calorie, whatever calorie appeals to you and goes in and stays in is is kind of the right calorie, really, after a while.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like it it doesn't even need to be you know carbohydrates.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I I found actually after sort of two or three days you start creating fat a bit as well, fat and salt.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think the rule is the more you get in, the better you'll do.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you're still on that journey, aren't you?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're understanding how you can continue to get more fuel in to, as you say, to be able to kind of perform better.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: And we've talked a lot about Dr.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Stacy Sims, obviously leading physiologist.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so much out there that she talks about, you know, women aren't small men, and we touch briefly on strength training.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Stacy's the way that she talks about in terms of lifting heavy weights, being able to again thinking about the whole female physiology and not just taking science that is ordinarily based on white men.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: You reference her in your book, you reference her a lot in these conversations.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the key nuggets that you think are really important for people to understand from the work that she's done today?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I mean, she's yeah, she's brilliant.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: She's really pioneering, you know, sticking up for you know, for females, female athletes, female science.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think her big one is, yeah, let's let's let's lift heavy, what do you say, lift heavy shit?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think you said that.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's the big one.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: And she talks about protein, you know, good protein intake around lifting.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if he her and Renee McGregor agree on on sort of every single facet of of you know, when we really get into the minutiae of sort of is it is it 25 grams or or 32 grams of protein before before you work out?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the idea is, yeah, women should be lifting heavy, you know, heavy things two, maybe two times a week, and we need good protein intake around that.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, she she's gone further into looking at the differences between, well, different metabolisms men and women have, and they respond differently to heat and to cold, and they respond differently, have different composition of muscle fibers, like high twitch or low twitch muscle fibers.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: There's actually some really big differences, and and then that can change again around menopause.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it you know, it it's it's it's I mean, it's quite it gets quite complex in a way.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say, yeah, go and check out her books.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Raw is a good one, isn't it?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's the more wisdom one I think, isn't it?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um Level Up.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Is it level up the earlier one?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, yeah.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would follow on Instagram as well.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, both her and Rini McGregor are brilliant on Instagram because they're constantly sort of giving you, you know, science-based posts, you know, educational posts.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's not it's not sort of influencer stuff, it's it's it's educational.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I would just at the very least follow them both and you'll learn you'll learn quite a lot that way.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you hit the nail on the head.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's about science-based approach by two women that are very much leaders within their field.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: But you are also a coach and you coach many athletes, and that's brilliant, but you have your own coach.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Did you need that accountability to somebody, or was that somebody that could look through a slightly different lens than you?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't, I don't need, I don't think I need accountability in terms of like making sure I get out the door, because I'd probably even I'd run more without a coach.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: I probably needed someone to make me a bit more sensible.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: I and I would, yeah, I'd probably be running more volume, not having rest days, and probably not doing many workouts is the truth of it, because I like I like long runs.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't love running fast, if I'm honest.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: I love it afterwards.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, having a coach makes me do those, you know, run a little bit less.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, sometimes I push back and say, actually, uh next week you've got me for this many miles, I'd like, you know, I think I should do this many.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Most of the time he wins those discussions, but occasionally we have a good, a good, you know, a good but yeah, I I just couldn't really I mean I love running so much that I would just run and run almost until I'm not necessarily injured, but you know, plateauing or regressing.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that probably was happening to me five years ago when I took when I took him on.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: So he just keeps, yeah, he keeps me sensible.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: It keeps me doing the the stuff I should do.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: And what does you think David sees in your data?
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think he looks a lot more at that in hard fact data, whereas opposed to your emotional, I want to go out and I love it and it's brilliant, you might not necessarily look at the data in front of you because you enjoy what you do so much?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: David's not, I mean, it's only in a spreadsheet the training.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't really know if he's in data, real data from me.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really know.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: We'd have to ask, we'd have to ask him how he does it.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: There's a chance he looks on my star as well and looks at things.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I'm not totally sure.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think more that he has a clear confidence in a a certain structure of training.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you can see it, you know, people he he to Patreon swap Patreon readers anyway now, like there's a load of training plans people can see.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he's got a lot of faith in a certain way of training, which which I I most could believe in too.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I do a similar pattern with most of my athletes.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's more that I I don't think he harvests much data from well, from me anyway.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: He's more of a qualitative guy, like he's interested, like he is he is checking in pretty much every day and looking for my, you know, how did my run feel, I suppose.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: So more of a qualitative response, I think.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the athletes that you coach and still do is the amazing Jasmine Paris.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: You were there when she was the first woman to finish the Barclay Marathon.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: What does a good coach EGU look at when you've got a woman like uh Jasmine who's in her 40s or her 50s, kind of look for?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: What what are the things that you want to know from that athlete before they start going?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, Jasmine, if it yeah, I dou I doubt she minds me saying this.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, she's incredibly motivated.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost it's it's holding her back a bit sometimes, actually, because she has, you know, she's got yeah, three children.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: One of one of them's very, very young.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: She she's off work at the moment, but she's going back to work soon.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: She's not, you know, she's not afraid to get up at 5 a.m.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, she frequently gets up before six to train.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, she's even got up at half past one in the morning to train before.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: So probably with her, it's like, hold on, are we overdoing it?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Are you getting enough rest?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, are we eating enough for all the training?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's more of those sorts of things.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: And definitely when it comes to race day, I mean that the obvious headline is she's finished the Barclays Marathons.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: I I haven't managed to answer the attempts.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: So when it comes to actual race day, you know, I don't tell her much of what to do because she's, you know, one of the absolute best in the world at this stuff.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: So but when it comes to the training, yeah, I've got I've got some well fairly proven ideas of of things that will work.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, the truth is we yeah, we have found she isn't, you know, she is a bit more sort of not injury prone, but she is picking up morning like twelve three times now with come back, yeah, after childbirth.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: And there's nearly always been a you know a little bit of a bump in the road.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: But she I most, you know, to her credit, she's very good.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: I've definitely had athletes in the past who get injured and don't tell you for a week or two.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas Jasmine is very, you know, very quick to go, ah, actually, somebody's not quite well bright my calf, and she's not afraid to take three days off.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of people could learn from that.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people are too worried sometimes of you know, all these three days fitness, you know, and and and push on and something worse.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I should say she's she's very good at that.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, there's no she's very motivated.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's never any uh I suppose concern or or struggle to get her training.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: And two minutes before the end of Barclay, how cool was it to see her come round the corner?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it was honestly one of the one of the best of things uh I've ever seen, you know, in and out of sport, I think.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um because the truth is most of us in camp didn't think she was going to make it in time, including, you know, including her her husband and another very good friend that'd sort of run the maths and they were like, no, we don't we don't think so.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I had re you know, I was still hoping, but then I'd recently uttered a sentence along the lines of, well, it will still be amazing, you know, even if she's a few minutes over, that's still incredible, like so far further than a woman has ever got, you know.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: So even I had sort of thought, well, it it it it might not happen.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: But then yeah, absolutely incredible.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: We had a false alarm, we heard someone shout runner, and we looked down and there was we knew she was wearing a red top, and there was a one of John Kelly's children actually had a red top on, and he was he was down there sort of playing around, and and we thought someone had misidentified him as as Jasmine.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it was almost like a runner, oh no, it's not.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: So this massive anticlimax, false, false hope.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: But then only a few seconds later it was like, no, no, no, no, there is someone coming in.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that was just yeah, just so moving.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: And very few people understand, I think, how difficult the Barclay is and and what she accomplished because it's not just it's not just grit and determination.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you have to still be clever when you're incredibly tired.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll just give an example of that.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: There are four or five of us, you know, Jasmine and and yeah, three, maybe three men, and we're going downhill and maybe look four.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: You're going down a like a you're downhill in some woods on a on a spur, and there are lots of spurs, and we're all expecting to see, you know, a river, and we're all like, Oh, there's a river, good, good.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: And she was and she was the one going, actually, the river's going the wrong way.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: So even when we're very fatigued, so we're coming down the long spur, but my mind anyway, I was like, I was happy to see river, that meant we're doing fine.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: But she was double thinking it to think actually, could it, you know.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: So she was still very, you know, when fatigued, you still have to be so on it, which takes, you know, a real unique skill set.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and she really suffered physically out there as well.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: I saw that as well.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, just incredible.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Just incredible.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: I I followed that race and I think it's a it's a brilliant concept.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll go on and talk a little bit about your experience at Barclay.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: But just to finish the coaching conversation, we've talked a lot about quantitative and qualitative feedback from a coach.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think it's massively important for athletes to have a real person, but we've seen the growth and the rise of AI coaching apps.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I did laugh on one of my conversations with Stacey Sims many months ago, and she said, Oh, this person has confirmed that my my methodology is right because I've asked ChatGBT, so it is correct.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we all kind of laughed on that.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: But the rise of AI coaching apps, good or bad for the ordinary person?
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, as a coach, uh yeah, I think I think I'm more inclined to think they're they're bad.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you could say they they improve accessibility.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: We would talk about interultural, like somebody maybe thinks they can't afford a one one-on-one coach, you know, can they get a decent program from AI?
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like I personally don't know if they can or not, but if they can for free, you know, that that's not that that's not a bad thing.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: However, yeah, has AI run the spine race or Lake Than Hundred?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: I could, you know, I can tell you they haven't, and and I have.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I I know I can give you some inf you know some good information from those particular races and many other races that AI couldn't do.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, it is it kind of is a threat of you know a coach's business.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I I do believe that you know, people with well, I I suppose with character that you know and integrity, um, but also with yeah, real experiences of doing certain things that you know AI won't have.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, doing the the following rounds or doing FKT is another example, you know, I've done lots of that, lots of coaches have done lots of that, whereas yeah, AI hasn't.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that gives me some some confidence that that yeah, some people will still want the real thing.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with you 100% on that.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and for you as an athlete, you have been super competitive over the last 20 plus years.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at your future, how do you see and how will you remain continuously competitive?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: And is that competitive in terms of doing something different, doing a distance, or what does your future look like in terms of competitiveness?
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, for now I've been very happily surprised that that I I seem to be just about competitive, I suppose domestically, in the races I want to be competitive in.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Last year I yeah, I won Lakeland Hundred and the Northern Traverse at 49.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: So far, I'm g I'm just sort of sticking with sticking with what I'm doing.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I you know, I'm not unrealistic that but I mean one the obvious answer is to sort of go to the longer stuff.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I I was already doing the long I I do like 200 miles as well, and I you know I've done Tor de Giants three times, I've done the spine race four times.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I was naturally gravitating towards the longer stuff where yeah, your speed is less important.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's quite a few years for me left, hopefully, if I'm an injury-free, where I'll be fairly competitive at yeah, sort of 200 miles, and and and there are all sorts of what's brilliant about a sport is yeah, you create your own challenges and and and go and you know, and and Nicki Sphinx is probably the biggest example there of someone just carrying on doing big things.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, we may need to be cleverer around them, like allowing more recovery and so on.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that's my approach for for now.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then it might just be, yeah, just just sort of new adventures and uh and at yeah, at some point, you know, your your your competitive outcome in a race isn't no, it isn't the video and end all ultimately.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I have to let go of that slowly over time as well.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I have no doubt that you will carry on being competitive for a very long time.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and we talked a lot about Barclay Marathon and your coaching of Jasmine, but you went back this year to be able to uh do that again.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: And we know that it's a very unfinishable race where you're looking at potentially a finish rate historically of 1%.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: How much do you think it affected nobody finishing this year by the change?
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it was in February, it was colder, it was there were a few kind of changes.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Just talk us through that as a race for you.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the the weather was fine for me, and I'd almost rather it was a bit colder.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I've done it in March, it's been colder than it was this time in February.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: So the weather to me, I mean, I did, yeah, I did make a mistake.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't take enough layers on that third.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: There were three of us went out on a third loop and and two of us came back early because we yeah, we we weren't adequately prepared.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: That that's yeah, quite a simple mistake on my part.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: I guess it's what you do with your tires.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: But it wasn't, I definitely been out and colder there, uh, but maybe I was expecting it more and and certainly been fine at the spine, which is much colder.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't that so much as since the year when five people finished, they've added yeah, two climbs per loop.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and a climb, a climb there is kind of 30-40 minutes of yeah, very steep, loose terrain.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, plunging your poles into the ground, sometimes plunging your knees into the ground to hold on.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's really steep, uh, it's really slow.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: And two, two of those per loop is I think too much for pretty much anyone at the moment.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the big change that has made it so difficult.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then, yeah, they've done that two years in a row, almost no change to the course.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think it's I think it's probably impossible for me as it currently is, because yeah.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm hoping, I suppose I'm hoping they'll reduce it a little bit, but who knows?
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: But making good decisions is something that you did.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you went barefoot across the creek.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: I presume that was again, I don't want to get wet feet.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's a thing that can affect I could get blisters, I can generally kind of get colder.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: Was that a tactic that you believe would make a difference to you through those loops?
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, footcare's whenever you go to well, probably anything over 50 miles, and especially at Barkley, it's so often, yeah, loose, loose, steep terrain.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a real chance of your feet getting unhappy.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so I was just protecting my feet.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it took me you know 30, 30, 60 seconds to keep dry feet.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: Basically, yeah, if you can keep dry feet on a loop, the two things that pro primarily give you blisters and moisture and friction.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, we I got back to camp with still dry feet, and I thought, well, do I really need to splash through there to be a minute quicker and then have like feet?
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the other runners did initially, but then they started using plastic bags to get back out, and I would just yeah, go barefoot and then take the minute to but I mean, yeah, I I yeah, and I'll do that, I'll do that again.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'll do that again only a minute.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so feet care for people taking on ultras.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: Any advice to make sure that you can give your feet the best chance possible?
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the the main one is to work out in training as best you can and and you know, get get shoes that that fit you and socks that seem to work.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, as I say, it's moisture and friction, and then that friction really is your shoes aren't fitting that well or or maybe aren't done up well enough.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, people have very different feet.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I've had people uh uh ask for a recommendation of shoes in the past and sort of you know, a shoe that I love doesn't mean it fits someone else's foot, really.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: So unfortunately that does mean a bit of trial and error for people if they're newer to the sport and trying out different shoes, but yeah, you need to find some shoes that primarily are just comfortable.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's the I'd say that's the the first that's the number one thing.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: And spine race is obviously an event that you love and you keep going back.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: What's so special about the spine race for you?
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: So many things.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, firstly, it's the drama of drama of the British winter, and I I do love that this the Pennine Way is right in the middle of England, but like and and there are big cities nearby, but you'd hardly know it when you're when you're up there.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: It can feel surprisingly remote.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a real treasure.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of history behind the Pennine Way, including the Mass Trespass, which I hope people know about.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and then you get this wonderful sense of community, you know, the Spine family.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just usually I'm going back to see friends, you know, and have a laugh about previous years and talk about, you know, how would John Bamba's chili taste this year?
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's just it is a wonderful experience.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then above above above that, actually is well not above that, but it's just amazing seeing people try and do things that they don't know that they can do.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I honestly don't think it's all about finishing.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: But if you get someone there who's maybe new to the sport, maybe older, maybe younger, uh, and they're trying to, you know, they're trying to do 268 miles for the first time or trying to do a hundred miles or even four, you know, the shorter races now, even the forty milers, you know, isn't that isn't that cool that they will take that step of vulnerability and courage at the same time and just see what's possible, that curiosity.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I just love I just love seeing that and maybe being a tiny part of that, whether you're a runner or maybe I've volunteered on the race as well, whether you're, you know know watching or helping them in some um it just says something about the human spirit I think and and just especially yeah how many people gather around to help.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean that does happen at other races.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: I just think at the spine it's all a bit more on steroids kind of thing because of the weather, because of the nature of the challenge and because of how much help people need sometimes.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: And these wonderful acts of kindness from the from outside the running community actually, especially with the spine you just get locals on the route or farms for example open up and invite people in and leave snack boxes out.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: Several times there were just snacks left in a little box on the side of the trail and things like that.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: Just really just really there's tiny acts of kindness that actually mean a hell of a lot to people when they've been out all night.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah hopefully I sold it to people there but it's it's just yeah it's really special.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something that restores your faith in human kindness when you you tell the stories that that you do that people go out of the way to enable you to know that there's I don't know there's a place that you can sit for five minutes or there's something else that you can eat.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really positive experience isn't it in so many ways.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah and that is kind of what it comes down to that you know with our sort of divisive politics nowadays and and the tribalism that sort of social media doesn't necessarily help with people are fundamentally good kind people I find and and sometimes afterwards you realise they did, you know, vote for the the selfish ones or the racist ones but actually they're still good people and I think it's worth remembering that.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah so I find that really really rewarding.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go back to green runners.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's something you're very passionate about.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's got four pillars how you move kit up fuel and speak out.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: And we've got a question about that.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: How can runners balance the desire to do incredible races worldwide some for the first time with the environmental impact you've been outspoken about UTMB and the impact it has but it's hard for people to hear the message don't go if they haven't had the opportunity yet.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: So how do people balance that and how do you balance the races that you do internationally?
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I think at the moment that's still on on an individual I I think trying to understand the impact of say a flight or I mean the great thing with UTMB is you don't have to fly there.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: You can you know from Britain it it's not it's not too much trouble to get to get trains.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think under try and understand the impact and then decide for yourself whether you think you know is two flights in a year for running is that is that reasonable for you.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: It might be if you haven't created a family if you're maybe you don't eat beef, you know maybe you don't drive a car, then to me, you know, I I'm not going to tell other people what they should or shouldn't do but but they might think well actually yeah I'm I'm I'm actually contributing less in these areas so I'm okay you know I think two flights for running a year might might be reasonable for example.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly I don't you know I don't tell people to not go to UTMB.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I coach people who who will do UTMB races and and that's fine.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: And my main thing with them actually was they they had a high carbon sponsor for three years which that was what upset me the sports watching and I was more annoyed with the sponsor than than than the race itself although yeah we had some good some good discussions with them.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah I think I'd say to people try to understand the the sort of impact and then make make yeah make a decision for yourself.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: And for me yeah I'm lucky in that I I've done most of the big races I wanted to do that that you know abroad that that's why I've always been a bit careful not to you know point figures elsewhere and sort of say people shouldn't do this or should do that.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: But for me I decided yeah one one flight a year is the maximum I would take for for running and so far since sort of deciding that I've only done one flight for running every every other year and it's only yeah only for the Barkley Americans I'd say only obviously that's a obviously a sizable flight to America.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I realised I suppose there's stuff I don't need to do and then I there's stuff I could do better.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: So when I when I've gone to tour deal on a UTMB ever since yeah getting the trains staying longer and things like that.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah I'd say I'm trying to understand the impact and and people can make decisions for themselves.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and your point is look at other options get the train how can you make that trip more sustainable than just get just getting a flight and to to finish we've got quite a few quickfire questions from from listeners and the first one best nutrition trick the one thing that actually works for you.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah set an alarm in a race set an alarm every 30 every 30 minutes and put something in every 30 minutes.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: Worst nutrition mistake yours or someone else's have you seen oh it's got to be it's got to be underfueling yeah whether in racing or training underfueling top tip for when it gets hard and remember your why if you could give one training session to an ultrarunner each week what would it be?
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: To an ultrarunner probably let's go five times three minute hills.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: I look forward to doing that next week.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: Tips on descending and this is a question in context and rebuilding bravery on descent especially when coming back from an injury.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes I do think the secret to good descending is in your brain and trying to override that over caution that our brain is giving us I think it is yeah if if someone's come back from injury especially if it's an injury sustained on a descent it's it it it yeah mainly to patients and it may be progressively sort of going on more technical or steeper terrain but yeah trying to let go trying to let the brakes off trying to let the brakes off because ultimately that's kind of free it's free speed because it's gravity it's not it's not your fitness.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: So brakes off because you know it's free speed.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay so the next one is at what point in an Ultra does a pork pie or a vegan pie officially become sports nutrition?
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: Over 50 miles.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay brilliant Barclay 26 no one finished the five loops in this year.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: In your opinion isarest lake making the course impossible for anyone to do you kind of did answer that one in our conversation earlier.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah no I did I think it's I think it's currently impossible or too hard.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes I hope yeah yeah I think it I think it currently is.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: And three more bucket list what's an event you haven't done you still want to do well why don't I say Swiss Peaks 380 which is what I'm doing next at the end of the summer.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: A really relevant one to you as an Arsenal fan and he was in the stands for many times if Arson Venger was the England manager would we have won the World Cup?
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: Wow what a great question trying to be as honest as I can what a good question.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go yes let's let's say yes maybe yes maybe yes or maybe you've got to nail that one was up what Arson Ben Venger would have got when he brought us back the trophy.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the last one if you could relive an hour not a race just one hour of your running career what would it be and why?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think it would be an hour of my first spine rest because I couldn't believe although I was really uncomfortable I was really tired way further than I'd ever gone before I remember getting these amazing moments of euphoria and I just couldn't believe how graced I felt although I was in discomfort I just couldn't I was just amazed by this sort of this roller coaster of of ups and downs but they were still yeah they were still ups to have despite how hard it felt so it would be yeah an hour of that first spin most yeah brilliant and just to finish if there's anyone listening to this and you just could give them one piece of general advice when it comes to running what would it be?
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: Keep your easy runs truly easy.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant and we talked a lot about run forever there's two other books.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: We'll put all the links in the show notes so people can get access to that.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: If anyone wants to find you just go to ultradamo.com is that the best place for them to find out about you?
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah I got a website and I'm quite active on Instagram as well which is yeah ultra damo as well yeah and again for the green runners thegreenrunners.com and into ultra is intoultra.org.uk so those are places that people can just follow up with any questions that they have for you but look Damien it's been a it's been a pleasure thank you for for your time thank you for your honesty and your your energy and I'm looking forward to understanding and understanding how hard your strength training session's going to be because you told me that you're going to do an S and C session after looking forward to it or not?
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: Good question.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna yeah I haven't done one I'm recovering from an event so I haven't done one for a couple of weeks so yeah that means it'll be harder than normal won't it?
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: It is a fairly short one I'll be honest it's a bit of a hybrid sort of welcome back one.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's only four or five exercises.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not looking forward to it but I know it's good for me.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's good for me.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm yes, I'm going to do it.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah brilliant well thank you very much and uh thanks to everybody listening and Damien best of luck with the rest of the season and thank you very much for your time.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Mel