Latest / Women Disrupting Tech / How a Female Founder Builds Privacy-First Tech for an Aging Population with Femke Delissen | Ep. 150

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How a Female Founder Builds Privacy-First Tech for an Aging Population with Femke Delissen | Ep. 150 · Women Disrupting Tech

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We always have these conversations that we also did
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by we are learning so much from starting the company and the
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healthcare sector and, and, and making a device ready for a
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commercial path that up until a little bit ago we said, no
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matter what happens, let's take the chance and go all for it
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because otherwise we would have learned a lot.
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And actually not too long ago we said, yeah, that's not enough
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anymore. We want to make it a success one
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way or another. And what that success is, it
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doesn't mean we become the next Google, but it does mean that
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the technology is used for a purposeful way in healthcare
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because it's such a beautiful technology.
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There is some use cases there. So if we can just really let it
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do the things that it can do, then we already say it's it's
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definitely a success. Hey, welcome back to Women This
1:06
working Tech and thank you for tuning in to episode 150.
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I'm your host, dear Kunupkas, and this is the podcast that
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closes the funding gap in venture capital by amplifying
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the stories of female founders and their investors.
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My guest today is Femke Daleson. She's the Co founder of PAVA,
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and PAVA is a health tech startup focused on improving
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elderly care through the use of Wi-Fi sensing and AI.
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While still in university, Femka and our Co founder saw
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healthcare's double problem, an aging population in need of more
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care and fewer people available to provide it.
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And what started as a side project quickly became a full
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time mission to build a solution.
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In this episode, Femke shares how PAVA is building a remote
1:55
monitoring system that is privacy friendly while giving
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caretakers enough information to act.
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By listening, you'll learn how a low tech plug and play solution
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can help you skill and build trust in healthcare, while the
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team chose to solve a hard healthcare problem instead of
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chasing faster attraction elsewhere.
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And how Femke uses numbers to attract the right investors for
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that long journey. Femke shares how a background in
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top sports helps the founders play to each other's strengths.
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So when you're ready to hear how this female founder is building
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privacy first tech for an ageing population, here's my
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conversation with Femke Dalusson.
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Femke Dalusson, welcome to women disrupting tech.
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Good to have you. Let's start with a big bit of
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background. You're the Co founder of Bava
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dot AI. How did you get to being a Co
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founder? Hi great to be here and to talk
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with you. How did I get to be a Co
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founder? Well, I did a masters artificial
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intelligence in Amsterdam and together with some schoolmates,
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we had a project where an entrepreneurship course in the
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AI Masters and we already felt like looking to bridge a more
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technical yeah, yeah, technology with the real world.
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And then also we wanted to look at more than tackling a society
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problem. So that's that's kind of where
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it all originated. And during our studies, that's
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where PAVA originated. And we actually kept going at
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that. We took it quite seriously after
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the course ended. So started one day a week and
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two days and actually we got a lot of good feedback.
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So we continued working on it and we took a chance and a leap
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of faith, quit our part time jobs, graduated and we started
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working full time and have been learning ever since.
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So out of curiosity, what what type of part type of part time
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job did you have? I was doing a student LED
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consultancy, it's called Sustainable Students Consultancy
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where as soon as you tackle problems for a real customer and
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you get help from the big consultancy firms.
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That was my part time jobs. But for example, MY2 Co founders
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Tom and Dan, they both worked one as a data scientist and one
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as a machine learning engineer at two data companies until we
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all decided to spend our full time towards BAFA because it's
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wouldn't get off the ground if we still had a little bit of
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mind space going somewhere else. Yeah, yeah, I hear you.
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And so so the team that you Co founded Papa with was the team
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that you started that was also in the same master's education
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ads in Amsterdam. Yeah, yeah, we all did the same
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master's, but we all have different bachelor backgrounds
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and different hobbies as well. So even though we have the same
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master's degree, we're quite different in our skills, let's
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say. OK.
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And I think in a tech company, that's usually quite helpful.
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Yeah. It's really nice though to all
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know even though I'm now fully on the commercial side, I do
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have technical background. So anything that we make, I
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still understand what they're talking about.
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I can still sometimes put in a good idea or or challenge them
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with some questions. So would that help?
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Cool. So I want to rewind a bit in
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your life because besides studying in Amsterdam, you also
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studied in the US at UC Berkeley.
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How does that experience of of studying in the US also close to
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Silicon Valley, how does that help you in your in what you do
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today with Papa? Yeah, I think exactly the the
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American mindset, but also the Berkeley mindset is very
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proactive and I think during my studies I've seen it all around
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me. A lot of people during their
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studies were starting small businesses or just trying stuff
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out and at least there's a lot of talk about it.
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So it's at least it wasn't anything new for me.
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Although after coming back from America, I actually wanted to do
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the complete opposite. I thought I'll come back to the
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Netherlands, do my master's work at a big corporate.
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I wanted to go. I, for the first time walk a
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path that more people did because by going to the USI
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actually did something different than people around me.
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And I think that eventually I did take the a different path
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than other people around me by doing the start up.
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But I think a lot of the American experience has really
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helped him. I I'm familiar with being
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unknown, or at least I'm very, I think the whole US culture is
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very open minded. So yeah, talking to different
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people, tackling different problems, it's, it's being
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curious, it's being open to whatever comes your way.
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And I think maybe in the Netherlands, everybody's more
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following their, yeah, the norm. Yeah, So what makes you because
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she said OK, I wanted to when you went back to the
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Netherlands, you wanted to do what everyone else was doing.
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What makes you still go, let's say the US way like more?
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Follow your curiosity. Yeah, I think learning I was
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even though we did half a part time, every new face or new
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person we talked to, they could open our eyes to, oh, doing a
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start up, you should talk to this person.
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Then we learned a whole different side of what what
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there is to know about a start up or healthcare.
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Oh, you should talk to this person.
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And I was just constantly learning.
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That's also something that's me. My Co founders really appreciate
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the curiosity, the opening new doors, tackling new problems.
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That's what really it keeps it interesting.
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And with that being said, being with the Co founders is to was
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great. We didn't know each other before
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our studies. We had to kind of get to know
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each other to say to each other, let's start a company together.
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So we spend a lot of time also just having fun and getting to
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know each other and then all having the same drive and
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mentality for I guess tackling life a different approach.
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And I guess since we were doing it together, it wasn't as
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different. I think that's that's yeah, made
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made me also take the chance on it.
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OK, cool, so let's go to PAVA, because maybe go to to explain
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what PAVA does in a nutshell. Yeah, so we are developing a
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remote monitoring system for the elderly care to support nurses
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in elderly care by working more efficiently so they can receive
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notifications or they can see activity of their residents.
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Yeah, behind the closed doors. And we do this using Wi-Fi
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sensing. So we look in every room,
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there's Wi-Fi signals going kind of like a signal.
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And if you walk through those signals, you disrupt those
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signals. And our software translate these
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disruptions into the relevant data that the nurses can use.
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So someone getting out of bed, going to the bathroom, getting
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back or getting up out of bed at night, wandering off the
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hallways, we can flag for motion in any type of form.
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OK. So what is the underlying
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problem that you're solving? Because I think we all have an
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understanding now what you do and that it's Wi-Fi sensing, so
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sensing what people's movements are in their rooms at night.
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So, but why do people, why do nurses need to monitor that and
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what's making that difficult right now?
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Yeah, the biggest, the biggest issue that we are facing in
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Healthcare is the ageing population.
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We're all getting older, we all, there's more care needed.
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But on the flip side, actually there's less, less people
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working in healthcare. So it's kind of like a double
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problem there. So we actually have to provide
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the same type of quality care for more people with less hands.
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That's that's the whole societal problem that we're facing.
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And there's definitely a shift going from doing everything
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hands on the bed. So the nurse is going to the
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residents or clients. We have to shift in a more
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efficient way. So by getting more information
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you can actually give targeted care.
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So if I know someone is up, I'll go there 1st instead of first
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doing the loop around and eventually getting to this
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person who needs care 1st or. Most does it help nurses also do
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give more targeted care so because they can actually see
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the signals and also make the distinction either with help of
12:05
Papa or themselves seeing hey OK this person is just going to the
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bathroom which is OK versus this person is night walking which
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may not be a good idea. Yeah, exactly.
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Is that also part of what you're helping people solve?
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So actually in that sense also dealing with the shortages in a
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way that it makes makes it more efficient to use these these
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hands on the bed. Yeah, exactly.
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So basically, it's not like you want to monitor these residents
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constantly just by looking at them every second.
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But where it does help is that actually you can, you can see
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where the care is needed, you can help make decisions in what
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is a dangerous situation and not, and you can help flag that.
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So if you don't need the nurses going past every room to check
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if everybody is OK, but by beforehand giving information,
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you can actually see OK, all the rooms are quite clear and easy.
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Everybody's in bed, but on the 5th floor, someone walks up and
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you can, you can walk there more.
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Yeah, you can walk there with a with a aim.
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And instead of having four people working during the
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nights, you can skill down. Well, actually we don't want to
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skill down. But on the flip side, there's
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actually not many nurses there to hire.
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So actually there should be more nurses on the night shift, but
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there's just simply no, no one there to fill the the spots.
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So it actually helps the remaining nurses to be in
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control of all the residents that they're responsible for.
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OK, so so there's what I'm here you say there's a sort of
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control thing that you actually managed to, let's say in a non
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invasive way, check up on on the people of on the on the
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residents. It's by that I think it's more
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privacy for the residents themselves.
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Exactly. So remote patient monitoring or
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patient monitoring monitoring in general is not new.
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That's already used. So wearables are being used.
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There's even camera systems or there's door sensors.
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There's, there's actually a lot already out there to help signal
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these nurses in for certain situations.
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But what we see is that having to put on a wearable, especially
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people with dementia, they forget it or they they are not
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there in dangerous situation, even though maybe they are
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wearing it and they fall, they forget to press it or they can't
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reach it. So that's, that's some issues
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there. Cameras, not everybody's happy
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with having a camera in their room.
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And also a camera can not see around the corner.
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So you're very limited to your vision field.
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And then of course, there's door sensors or knobs or there's a
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lot of point solutions where you can track activity.
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But these are all, yeah, in different ways, not they're
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invasive or they're not user friendly either for the resident
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or for the night nurses to use. And what we're doing with the
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Wi-Fi sensing, it's little plugs for in the wall, little kind of
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like an adapter, but you can. So you put it in the wall, but
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you can put your lamp on the other side of it to visualize it
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for the nurse. And if you put those on three
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sides of the apartment, they send and receive signals from
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each other. So even though there's a wall in
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between, because Wi-Fi goes through walls kind of like your
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router does in your house as well for the Wi-Fi.
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So they send and receive signals from each other.
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So every apartment has a mesh network and when you walk
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through it, so from bedroom to bathroom, you can you disrupt
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the signals across the mesh and that's what we translate.
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So that means that the infrastructures is there in the
16:18
room. We can kind of hide the plug.
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So it's not like you don't feel watched and there's actually no
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privacy sensitive information that's being stored.
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So we don't need to know who's in the room or or what you're
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doing at that exact moment. We just see there is activity
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and it is in this location. The night nurses of course know
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who is in what room. They see room numbers.
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But it's not like we are storing any sensitive data or storing
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what your what the activity is within the room.
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That's not what we see. Yeah.
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You just sense activity, yes or no?
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OK. And what I'm also hearing you
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say is that basically it's really low tech.
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So it's really easy also to install for, for.
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Nursing what we want to stay ahead of.
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So one of the our USPS is that is a plug and play system.
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So you should just receive 3 plugs, plug them in the wall,
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connect them together and you're good to go.
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And a lot of or a lot of sensors out there today, they either
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have to be installed for a camera, you need to wire
17:35
something or the placement needs to be looked at.
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You need to draw in, where's the bed, where's the bathroom, where
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is anything. And we want to stay away with
17:46
it. We want to really keep it as a
17:48
low maintenance product. We don't see a lot of details.
17:53
There's no face recognition. There's no no, no special things
17:57
that we can see exactly what you're doing.
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But that's also what we want to want to stay at.
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We want to remain in the the plug and play an easy non
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invasive monitoring. OK, so out of curiosity or not
18:10
out of curiosity, but I was in your office, so I saw how you
18:15
tested this. But maybe explain for listeners
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how you test this solution in, let's say, in your office and in
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real life. Because when you enter part of
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your office in Amsterdam, there's this room where there's
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well, like furniture like you would have anywhere, but there's
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also a grid there. And that created a specific
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purpose I think. Yeah, OK.
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I see what you mean. So, yeah, we have an office and
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we have plugs on different sides of the walls.
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It's quite big and also around the corner.
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So we kind of fix having a bathroom there to create a more
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residential area as we especially in the early days, we
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taped yeah, duct tape on the floor to make grids and to
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really see what meter exactly you are located in.
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So yeah, we used to do all these tests of like you first go
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standing with square 1 and then in the middle of the room and
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you can, we can actually test the accuracy of how close or far
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away you are from what plug. And exactly.
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So that's how we can test where we know which where we were
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sending in and then we can see in the data we can verify the
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location detection with that. OK.
19:41
I want to shift a bit in terms of the solution.
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The installation is pretty clear, like it's just a plug in
19:50
the wall like any other plug and you can there's sort of a
19:55
connector plug almost so you can actually plug the lamp on top of
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it or the TV or the computer. So I was wondering how that
20:02
data. However, little ends up with the
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nurses. Is that through an app or
20:08
through dashboard? Or how?
20:10
How does? It yeah, we have our own
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dashboard where we can see all the rooms in that organization
20:16
or house that are installed. So basically you can, you can
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just scroll through all the rooms, see the activity levels.
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But then also that is more a more passive way of monitoring
20:28
where you can just keep an eye out.
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If you know someone is out and about and still doing, is still
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busy in their room or wants to wander around, there's no need
20:39
to send an alarm for that, but they can keep an eye out.
20:45
And then on the other hand, there is a notification system.
20:48
So we can install any notification from activity to
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location to duration or frequency.
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For example, we can send a notification if a residence goes
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to the bathroom and then is inactive there for 20 minutes.
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We can send a notification because in any means that is a
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situation that you would want to get a notification on.
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But also for someone else. For example, if someone is very
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unstable and has a high likelihood of falling, you can
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also already put a notification on the moment someone starts
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walking or gets up. So it's interchangeable per
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room, which also makes it very personalized.
21:32
Yeah. So you can provide personalized
21:34
care. It's not a one-size-fits-all
21:37
notification system, which which makes it also for the residents
21:43
more appropriate to whatever their their needs are.
21:46
Yeah, so it's it's really also a step on the way to personalized
21:51
care for the elderly people. So you told me before that what
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you do is you, you buy in the centres from a company that
22:02
makes these Wi-Fi sensors and they put this, I, I take it the
22:06
software on top of it. Yeah.
22:08
We, we actually change all the software from it.
22:10
So it is just a off the shelf product and we change the
22:16
complete software. So our products more the
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software that can translate the Wi-Fi disruptions from it.
22:23
So these sensors are pro or they are able to send and receive
22:28
Wi-Fi signals and any disruptions in there is what we
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play with and we can alter and we can, we can do a lot of stuff
22:38
with that. Right now we're live with the
22:41
activity monitoring and location detection, but much more can
22:45
come from it. So we also really want to focus
22:48
on developing a fall detection system or a lifestyle.
22:54
Better monitoring anything is possible within the limits of
22:59
the hardware. But yeah, that's what we're
23:04
working towards. Yeah.
23:05
So you're currently focusing on elderly care.
23:11
Is that only on the elderly homes or is this also for
23:16
instance something I could install with my mother in her
23:20
own private home? Yeah, that's.
23:22
Definitely. So basically we can we can see
23:25
activity and location. I think the biggest next step
23:30
for us is really we have this information, but who's going to
23:33
use it at the right time? We want to serve the nurses and
23:39
we don't want to overload them with information or
23:42
notifications that they don't know what to do with it.
23:45
So that is why now we are really focusing, OK, what do you want
23:50
to know? What is a dangerous situation
23:52
for you to do your work better, more efficiently, improve the
23:56
quality of care for the residents.
23:58
And they're the only people that know what they need.
24:01
I'm not a nurse in a healthcare home or that goes into home
24:07
care. I'm Yeah, it's something that
24:10
they that we really want to serve for them.
24:13
And eventually having A, by having it installed by you for
24:19
your mother is possible, but we're not there as a startup yet
24:23
to facilitate the whole B to C market.
24:27
And that that's definitely a dream.
24:29
It's just starting phases. We have to focus first on
24:32
getting the insights right and especially targeting it for for
24:37
the care system before we just deploy it to anyone.
24:42
Yeah. So I was wondering, yeah, how do
24:44
you ensure it keeps learning the system?
24:48
Yeah, Yeah. Good question.
24:49
Right now, we don't use AI yet for the notifications.
24:54
So basically we use AI for translating the the Wi-Fi
25:00
signals. But it's not that, it's not that
25:04
we are learning the patterns for the night nurses.
25:11
That is also somewhere in the future.
25:13
That is very interesting. But with that, we really need to
25:17
work together and Co create that with the healthcare people.
25:21
OK, yeah. So have you done any, how do you
25:24
say shadow runs with people yet? Like doing a real night shift
25:31
and and then seeing what is happening.
25:34
Absolutely. Yeah, we have a we have a first
25:37
paying customer in the healthcare home where we have 85
25:39
rooms in the system which is great.
25:42
And we really started there from having nothing to the first
25:46
dashboard to now the notification system.
25:49
And it's really great to see how they are at the beginning are
25:53
wondering the first night I am showed them how the dashboard
25:58
worked. I was explaining you can click
26:00
here and see everyone else. And then she said stop, scroll
26:03
back. Hey, I see movement in room 200
26:06
and something. Can you can you stop for a
26:09
second? And then she saw that the that
26:12
movement was activity was detected.
26:14
And she's like this resident. She's supposed to sleep.
26:16
She's never up. Let's go check.
26:18
And then we found this resident half dressed, dressed on the
26:22
hallway by which we could intervene way quicker and we
26:25
could bring her to bed way sooner than the night nurses
26:29
would have done their routine routes.
26:31
So it was really great to see that by, even though it was
26:34
passively looking through the rooms.
26:36
They know the night nurses, they really know their residents and
26:39
they know what's common for some and what's not.
26:42
So activity for mean means something else than it does for
26:46
activity for a different room. So that was great, yeah.
26:51
Yeah, on the, on the one hand, it sounds beautiful and all
26:54
that. And it sounds also really
26:55
complex because you, if you want to tailor that in terms of
27:00
signalling, you have to almost individually program those
27:05
behaviours in like I want to see for room 2201, I want to see
27:10
this and this movement or see if if a person is up at all first
27:17
if for room 202. Hey, listen, they're walking
27:21
around all night. I don't care.
27:23
But if they fall, I want to know.
27:26
Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's, it is possible to
27:32
personalize this and that that is the goal because you don't
27:35
want the same notifications for everyone.
27:37
And on the other hand monitoring is a assistance and it's not a
27:42
given that you have to do anything with it.
27:45
So it's it's there for safety and it's there for better there,
27:50
but it's not like a must before every night or installation.
27:54
You have to make sure all your settings are set to the right
27:58
spot. That is some that is a given
28:00
that they do anyways. They have a they, the nurses
28:04
know what the residents need. If they adjust that in our
28:08
system or they discuss it amongst themselves to keep an
28:12
eye out on one resident because they've been very restless.
28:18
Does it also help? Does it also help, let's say
28:21
knowledge transfer? So let's say if new people come
28:25
in that you don't like, lose half of the knowledge about a
28:28
certain patient because there was one nurse who always did
28:34
that job. Yeah, I think it can go so many
28:38
ways. So without going there's,
28:41
there's so many examples to give.
28:43
For example, if, if you're a new night nurse in the past four
28:46
days, two different people walked, walked the routes or
28:52
walked the nights of him. You can see like a overview of
28:56
like what I want to see from Femka.
28:59
How did she sleep the past nights?
29:00
Because last week when I had a night shift, she was very
29:03
restless. I want to see if she had a whole
29:05
week of decent or easy rest. And if you can see in the in our
29:10
dashboard, we can give a weekly overview with just to see how,
29:13
what the activity levels are. It's like, OK, there's there's
29:16
some easy night or oh, she still didn't sleep too great.
29:20
Yeah, that is a that is something how we can transfer
29:24
knowledge right now. We do.
29:26
We give it as an option, but not as a we.
29:30
Again, we don't want to bombard the nurses with you have to
29:34
consider all this information for you to do their job.
29:37
They know how to do their job and they can seek out the
29:40
information that can assist them.
29:42
So in that sense, it's actually a way of of having AI alongside
29:47
the nurse rather than replace the nurse.
29:51
Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
29:53
So it's it's definitely to make them do their job better.
29:58
And I want to stay away from the AI part for now.
30:02
We do use AI, but the insights that they get is not generated
30:07
or it's not predicted in any means.
30:09
It's we detected something and we give you that information.
30:13
There's nothing there also for regulatory reasons.
30:19
Otherwise you become a medical device who can advise you on how
30:22
to give care. We stay away from that.
30:24
So we detect, we we share what we see, but it's up to them to
30:30
make a decision, Yeah. So I want to talk about building
30:34
PAVA in a bit, but one thing that struck me, So I'm I'm
30:38
watching you as we speak and you're like really passionate
30:41
about this topic. What made you like really click
30:46
with this particular issue in elderly care?
30:50
Yeah. It's really funny because I've
30:53
gotten to know the healthcare system now a little bit.
30:59
I think it's very important to keep listening to the people
31:03
working in healthcare because it is not something to make an
31:06
assumption about or is definitely.
31:11
Yeah, I find that very interesting to really see how
31:14
does it work and all the things that I thought about how
31:16
healthcare worked. It is it is different and the
31:19
systems are so complex. On the one hand, everybody wants
31:25
to work towards the same goal. So everybody wants each other to
31:29
succeed and and have the best possible care for the residents.
31:33
That's that's the goal, number one.
31:35
But how to get there and people have different opinions about
31:38
isn't it? Everybody's passionate about it.
31:43
Yeah, I think, I think that's just really great to see.
31:47
So again, I'm learning about systems, I'm learning about
31:50
decision making. It's not a financial decision
31:53
making, it's a psychological 1. And then also the translation,
31:59
well, you, you want to have a better, better quality of care
32:03
for your residents or you want to reduce the stress on your
32:06
night nurses. That's two things to sometimes
32:12
it's really hard to quantify in a in a monetary value.
32:18
Of course you can. If you detect that one person
32:22
actually is needs more assistance or less assistance or
32:27
actually has a different schedule to wake up and you
32:32
change the waking up schedule targeted for that client, Yeah,
32:36
it's a better quality of care, but it's not a monetary value
32:41
for a decision making unit up above.
32:44
So it's all it's all more psychological wins than you do.
32:49
And I think the. Most because yeah, if I can just
32:52
interrupt you because what I find really interesting about
32:57
that is that in at least my perception from Healthcare is
33:02
that we look at it really from a cost perspective.
33:06
So for every, every treatment, let's say every single device
33:12
that we order, it has to be a monetary benefit of sorts.
33:16
And that can be sometimes it's less, less time that you need or
33:22
less treatment or less repetitions of treatments that
33:26
you need or more efficiency of the, the treatment itself.
33:31
But it's all ways at least that's in my mind it's almost
33:37
cost related. So when you said it's it's more
33:41
of a psychological decision, I understand what you mean.
33:46
But I wonder how you translate that to the people, let's say
33:51
above who are maybe cost driven or at least driven by monetary
33:59
valuations more than let's say the the fact that a customer is
34:05
happy. Well, customers should be happy,
34:07
but at the lowest possible cost. Yeah, no, definitely.
34:12
Of course, everything there has to be a cost saving effect
34:16
somewhere. And also luckily we're not the
34:20
first, first data point that we bring into healthcare to reduce
34:25
the stress or improve the quality of care.
34:27
So nobody needs to be convinced of that.
34:30
Even the decision makers up top, they know that we need to
34:35
support the nurses that they're out there to to be able to work
34:41
more people actually. So that's that's that's not no
34:46
convincing because they know exactly where what is costing
34:50
them the most or what is where they're losing money.
34:53
Where we stand out in that point is that to get information is
35:00
the, the biggest question is how much is your information worth?
35:03
So for me to say, OK, someone wanders off at night, if you can
35:07
actually prevent an instance like losing someone or them
35:11
falling off the stairs, that's that's cost effective.
35:13
So if you can actually know and signal someone walks out of the
35:18
room, you're preventing a fall. So it's, that's kind of like how
35:21
much is it worth for you to know everyone who exits the building?
35:26
And then what we look at is there's different ways of
35:30
detecting that. There's a door sensor, but the
35:32
door could be open if the person still stays in, or there's a
35:35
camera that could see everything.
35:37
And let's say, so a door sensor super cheap, but you don't see
35:41
everything. A camera is really expensive and
35:43
you see everything. And let's say we're in the
35:45
middle. We're definitely more affordable
35:50
and we can see more, but not who it is or what it is or all that
35:54
stuff. So the biggest are USB, like I
35:59
said earlier, the fact that we are plug and play in the heart
36:02
and software is affordable is actually a way to provide a
36:06
continuity of data insights for a, an, an easy way.
36:14
And you don't have to make big infrastructural changes or you
36:18
don't have to deal with expensive hardware or data.
36:21
In that sense, we're adding to solving a healthcare problem,
36:27
but actually we are solving A technological problem.
36:32
There hasn't yet been a way to get valuable information for a
36:39
certain implementation or price. And I think that's also, to
36:43
answer your question earlier, what makes you so passionate?
36:46
I think there's such a big translation between
36:49
digitalization and healthcare. The question of what is the
36:54
information worth to you differs per organization but also
36:58
difference per year. 5 or 10 years ago, nobody, nobody would
37:03
be open to having data on their residents because they thought I
37:08
know how to do my job best, which they do, Let them just
37:13
walk their routine rounds. And now they're all begging for
37:16
at least going to get some support or data to support me
37:21
going, going to do my job. So there's a whole shift going
37:25
in digitalization. But we as a yeah, we, we love
37:31
data here. We think it's so cool how much
37:34
you can do with it, but it's it's really interesting to talk
37:39
to them about it. Like the vision of what you can
37:42
do for your organization when you, when you have this data
37:47
available to you is often not there yet.
37:50
So we can actually provide so much more information, but they
37:54
don't know yet how to make their cost or cost savings reality.
37:59
So how do you actually re roster your staffing if you would have
38:05
all the data to see? OK, there's peak moments during
38:07
the day. We're going to staff them there.
38:09
You don't know that until you have the data.
38:11
But they also don't want to buy the data because they don't know
38:14
yet what it's going to bring them.
38:15
So to bridge this whole question of how much do you want to see
38:19
as a healthcare organization is a big one because actually they
38:24
don't want to see anything until it's proven for them to reduce
38:29
like their staffing request, but then also to see how they can
38:34
trust technology and actually work with it.
38:36
I think it's very interesting. Is do you run into a lot of
38:42
skepticism against tech solutions?
38:47
Not so much anymore. I think there's more skepticism
38:52
of for us, we are the first Wi-Fi sensing company in
38:55
healthcare. Even though Wi-Fi sensing is
38:57
already existing concept, they don't know it.
39:00
It's never been used in healthcare.
39:02
Whereas if you talk about a medicine dispenser, there's
39:08
three types of it. So they all know it's it's.
39:11
And then then it's more of like, OK, we know medical dispensers
39:15
help. They don't know it from Wi-Fi.
39:17
But on the other hand, they do know that notifications can help
39:21
them. So then you kind of have to say,
39:25
yeah, skepticism about what technology you put in what place
39:32
of the system does. It then sort of help you that
39:34
it's low cost and in terms of selling the solution and also in
39:39
because it's like like totally it's low cost, but those are low
39:43
complexity relatively. I think the low complexity is
39:47
more of a game changer than the low cost because you're talking
39:50
about people, we're talking about clients and, and helping
39:54
them. There's the limit of of yeah, if
40:01
you, if you really prove your worth, it's worth spending the
40:04
money. Let's say however, data in
40:08
general or notifications or the. Accuracy.
40:12
I think the accuracy is a big, big thing about technology.
40:16
They need to trust the accuracy. If you're completely accurate,
40:20
your price can be high, but it is a big plus.
40:25
There were low cost in the sense of low implementation.
40:30
If there's also solutions that are so costly to install or de
40:36
install, especially for the home care settings, that's you don't
40:41
the the the suppliers themselves don't earn enough from their
40:46
monthly subscriptions just because the cost of insulation
40:50
is so high. That's more of a yeah.
40:54
Choice. So how does?
40:55
Yeah, how does your payment model work?
40:57
Is it also subscription based or?
40:59
Yeah, it's a subscription based with and including the three
41:02
plugs. So we, we do want to keep it
41:06
affordable, scalable, so you can actually choose where to that.
41:10
It's not a if if you want to know something about a
41:13
residence, you also have to also deal with regulations.
41:17
So in the Netherlands, we have the vets organs.
41:19
Wrong. You can only monitor when
41:21
there's actually a yeah, you, you make a decision.
41:26
OK, I need to know this because otherwise I can't do my work.
41:29
You can't just monitor for the sake of it and the fact that
41:33
it's flexible and and cost effective, that you don't have
41:38
to make a huge investment to just be assured of, of, of what
41:43
you want to monitor. Is it?
41:44
Yeah, that's making it a lot easier.
41:47
So to, to what extent does it help also because we talked
41:53
before and then you told me, told me, hey, listen, I've just
41:58
done a pitch in a market that is, let's say less tech savvy.
42:04
Does this also help you in in terms of in the future
42:08
broadening the geographical scope for instance, that you can
42:12
go pretty much go anywhere without running into major
42:17
limitations? Yeah.
42:18
I think our purpose will be to make sure that we can provide
42:24
insights no matter what, no matter where.
42:27
Maybe to touch upon that to take away some questions.
42:31
So basically, if we have the Wi-Fi sensing going within the
42:36
room, the table, the couch, the bed disrupts the signals a
42:41
certain way. And when you walk through it,
42:43
it's a relative change and that's what we measure.
42:48
So we don't need to say. So let's say you move your couch
42:52
or your table, it won't affect the notifications.
42:56
So that makes it easy to deploy anywhere.
43:00
Whereas a lot of other monitoring systems like a radar
43:03
or a camera, I'm going to say it yeah, more bluntly.
43:08
But if you change something in the layout of the room, the
43:12
models right now sometimes have difficulty than getting their
43:17
accuracies up again because something in the baseline
43:20
changed. So in that sense, yes, it is
43:22
easy to actually deploy anywhere and any make it scalable in that
43:27
sense. Yeah, OK, cool.
43:30
So Healthcare is known for having very long decision
43:35
cycles. Do you also run into that?
43:41
Where is that? Do you also see that compared
43:43
to, I don't know how much you talk to other start-ups, by the
43:47
way, So feel free to say I don't know, but compared to other
43:53
solutions, is it easier to sell? Is it to take less time?
43:57
Yeah, you know, it's, it's absolutely slow.
44:00
It's definitely not. We are ready to run and we have,
44:04
yeah, we need to slow down sometimes.
44:06
But as it should be, we're talking about people, we're
44:10
talking about our elderly. Of course it has to be slow.
44:13
So we're, we're with peace with it.
44:16
But I think the biggest issue that is making it slow is by
44:22
really answering the questions. What do you want to monitor and
44:26
what is it going to save me or bring me?
44:31
Or it's, it's our public organisations.
44:35
You can't just throw a new solution at them every time.
44:39
So right. And fair enough to to to take
44:43
our time. I think the yeah.
44:46
So the decision making of what do you monitor when and how big
44:50
can you make it is, is the reason that's taking long.
44:54
We really want to keep focusing on the healthcare sector to keep
44:59
our focus. That's now where our heart is.
45:01
We really want to speak the language of healthcare.
45:04
But of course everybody asks us what can this technology do
45:08
more? And we had this one talk about
45:13
energy savings. So if you can see who enters the
45:16
room and you can learn from those patterns, you can actually
45:19
maybe turn on the heater like an hour later or something like
45:22
that. So you can save so much energy,
45:24
so much money, that decision making was always the deal, was
45:27
always made at the table. Whereas like Healthcare is
45:31
definitely slower. If you have here for running
45:35
being tempted to to say, hey, listen this probably the
45:39
attraction is somewhere else or is going to be quicker somewhere
45:44
else that due to shift, let's say to what you were saying
45:49
about maybe buildings because they are actually sensory data
45:54
is quite common. I think we have considered
45:58
moving there first and then back to healthcare.
46:01
No, no, from the start we already knew this was going to
46:05
be a long, long journey. And from the start we also knew
46:10
if we don't focus then then you don't get anywhere.
46:13
So right away we said to each other, there's going to be so
46:17
many opportunity people asking us, but it's the whole
46:21
adventure. And it's also the most
46:23
satisfying in the healthcare system where you get to the
46:27
longer you're here, the more you actually see in, the more
46:31
excited we get about it. There's so much potential.
46:37
And I also think us, we're, we're young, we're driven,
46:40
we're, we're here with the long breath to still tackle the
46:44
healthcare problems. And if we don't do it, if we
46:48
were to stop now or or change our situation because it's more,
46:54
it's worth more quicker than yeah, it would just be the exact
46:59
example of I would lose faith in society.
47:02
If even we wouldn't do it for a moral compass, then who would?
47:07
So now we really want to stay here.
47:09
Yeah, that's really strong argument.
47:11
I would say to really stay on on where you are going now.
47:18
Yeah. Are you afraid to burn out on
47:21
that though? Like if there's no real, no
47:24
meaningful growth or results, have you have you, do you have
47:28
sort of a plan where you say, and I know this is not in the
47:32
script by the way, but do you have some sort of plan where you
47:37
say, OK, this is the moment if this happens, we just say, OK,
47:41
it's it's been nice. Apparently it wasn't us to do
47:45
this. We always have these
47:47
conversations that we also did by we are learning so much from
47:51
starting the company and the healthcare sector and, and, and
47:54
making a device ready for a commercial.
47:58
Yeah, path that up until a little bit ago we said no matter
48:03
what happens, let's take the chance and go for it because
48:08
otherwise we would have learned a lot.
48:09
And actually not too long ago we said, yeah, that's not enough
48:13
anymore. We want to make it a success one
48:15
way or another. And what that success is, it
48:18
doesn't mean we become the next Google, but it does mean that
48:22
the technology is used for a purposeful way in healthcare
48:26
because it's such a beautiful technology.
48:29
There is some use cases there. So if we can just really let it
48:33
do the things that it can do, then we already say it's, it's
48:39
definitely a success. And we have so much trust and
48:43
motivation that, that there's enough and too many, yeah,
48:53
opportunities for us to to bring it there.
48:57
And we also are aware that we're first time founders and we're
49:01
willing to learn, we're willing to have people get us to that
49:07
success one way or another because they know more about
49:10
the, the scaling or the healthcare sector or anything
49:13
like that. Yeah.
49:15
I think your question is, are you, when would it be enough?
49:17
No, we, we need if, if we are not enough, then we need to put
49:22
people, people there to make it enough because it's just it,
49:27
it's a fit. It just needs to click there.
49:29
And I think we are the right people, especially in this time
49:33
to prove that and to have those proof of concepts and pilots and
49:38
get the traction up. We already have our first
49:42
revenue. We, we can, we can expand that,
49:47
Yeah. Hey, I want to switch gears a
49:49
bit. Femka, you played hockey and you
49:54
have this terrific mindset of, OK, we're going all the way no
49:59
matter what it takes, we're just going all the way.
50:01
If it is, if if it isn't good enough, we'll make it good
50:04
enough. So you played hockey on I think
50:09
the highest competition level in the Netherlands at least, which
50:13
is probably one of the highest competitions level, competition
50:18
levels every anywhere in the world.
50:22
How does that what, what's the influence of that?
50:26
Does that sort of support you in on on that journey for really,
50:30
really pushing yourself to the maximum where you can go?
50:34
Yeah absolutely. And with me my 2 Co founders
50:40
also played sports at high level.
50:43
So one played football, the other basketball at the highest
50:47
level and in the team and driven.
50:50
So that's also where in the beginning we really found each
50:53
other because we all have that same mentality.
50:56
So we find teamwork very important if you can do
51:01
anything. But if you don't do with the
51:02
team and working towards the same goal, one, it's not as fun,
51:06
2, it's not as good. And three, you can't get the
51:10
best out of you if you don't, if you don't get triggered or
51:13
inspired by others. So I think the fact that all
51:16
three of us that really share that common motivation and the
51:21
top sport mentality, we say that is helps absolutely enormously.
51:27
And it's, it's great to see that if we know how to work together
51:35
and we know how to set goals and we know how to where commitment
51:39
comes from. And whenever it gets a bit
51:41
tough, we return to those principles of why are we doing
51:45
this? How are we doing this?
51:46
And we're doing it together. We've actually, one thing that I
51:50
really enjoyed the most is that even though we played all three
51:54
different sports, we looked at in our sports what positions we
51:57
played. And that actually says so much
52:00
about us individually. Like for example I was a.
52:05
Double click on that. I'm huge, huge sports geek.
52:09
Double click on that for me. What's your worth?
52:13
Your position in the field tells tells about you as a person.
52:17
Absolutely, yeah. For us, it really fit a coach
52:22
who who we were talking to, she pointed out.
52:26
Or she asked us the question saying like what position did it
52:29
did you play and what characteristics come with that
52:32
and that you see in your teammate Papa.
52:35
And we could really all three of us see that the characteristics
52:40
come that come with you in your position really play a role now
52:44
as well. So for example, I was always the
52:48
central defender. So I had the overview of the
52:51
field and I was the the captain and the motivator of the team.
52:56
And I was the the one who put people in position.
52:59
I wasn't defending an attacker, but I was always the plus one to
53:04
wherever and A2 on one situation had to happen defensively, like
53:08
I could step in or I could coach around the field.
53:12
So really having the overview and the vision.
53:15
And that's for me especially. And I see that also within our
53:20
team. I'm I'm quite I have a lot of
53:24
energy enthusiastic and and that is in this team needed.
53:30
And the other one of the others is really always about just goal
53:36
focus, like output driven, having one task and it's just
53:40
really something I can't do at all.
53:43
And it's really nice to have that complimentary.
53:46
And the other is definitely a safety net to always make sure
53:50
that it's it's yeah, we're being defended and the confidence and
53:56
the yeah, it's just really great how it's complimentary like
54:00
that. And I think also for whenever we
54:04
we could, we tackle, we get to a new phase in the start up, we re
54:08
evaluate who is in their best position and who is getting
54:13
getting ahead and who can we put forward to who can we sub in or
54:17
can I learn from you? Because you're yeah, better at
54:22
some things than I am. So I think that's great.
54:25
And I think top score mentality has just brought so much and I
54:30
think a little bit American mentality as well by just take
54:36
yourself seriously. And also, yeah, do it do with
54:40
full confidence and not have or not normal like the Netherlands,
54:44
like the touch peoples like just be normal.
54:47
Then you're then you're crazy enough.
54:49
Yeah, that's not how we want to be.
54:52
I think that's also necessary if you want to be an entrepreneur
54:55
or a founder because you have to be a little bit crazy.
54:59
What? Yeah.
55:01
Yeah, in, in, in in a good way, by the way.
55:03
So that and to your point, yes, I also sometimes really have a
55:10
problem with this Dutch mentality of Dumar Hondo, do
55:14
your heck no, yeah, yeah. OK, that's that's something for
55:20
another podcast episode. I think I was wondering because
55:24
I'm talking to a lot of founders also early stage what?
55:30
What have you. Learned building bava so far
55:34
that you underestimated what was more difficult or maybe what was
55:41
more easy I think. The fact that people actually
55:46
want to help you in every step of the way, especially in the
55:51
beginning. Not knowing.
55:53
Where to even look or where to even start.
55:55
There were so many people who took their time to sit with you
55:58
and to put their time for you. Have sessions, have talks, have
56:05
referrals. Your network, someone's
56:08
expertise comes at the right time and place for you, I think.
56:14
Yeah, not, I want to say asking for help, but it's just also
56:18
seeking out, knowing what you don't have now and asking the
56:22
right people if they can just think with you for a little bit.
56:26
I think it's in the beginning it was quite tough to be asking for
56:30
help, but then actually underestimated or it was, it
56:34
was, it definitely brought us to furthest to get help from lots
56:41
of other people. And we're the people doing it
56:43
and we're executing it. And, and after that talk, we're
56:50
the ones following. Through.
56:53
But it's also we just started we.
56:56
We we had. No idea where to figure.
56:58
Reading our own on our own? Yeah.
57:00
You don't know what you don't know.
57:02
Exactly, Yeah. So how did you?
57:05
Move around that. How did, how did you sort of
57:08
move from? Oh, there's so much to learn
57:11
still. We need help to asking for help
57:15
to getting to the Moat where you are now.
57:17
Like, OK, you're still executing, but you're not afraid
57:20
to ask for help. Yeah, I.
57:23
Think two ways. In the beginning, we really
57:26
spent a lot of time on our network going to a lot of
57:32
events, especially within the healthcare sector, talking to
57:36
the customers, users, so nurses, residents, but also the decision
57:41
makers like to really just bluntly say like, I don't know
57:44
anything about can you tell me about it?
57:46
So, and even now still we can we can fall back on that network on
57:54
for any follow up questions. And on the other hand, like,
57:59
like, yeah, building a company, there's still a lot of people in
58:04
our network who wanted to help on a more business side.
58:06
And at one point to also stop doing that and to just kind of,
58:11
there's so many people with different types of advice, which
58:15
is always good, but it also takes up a bit of time.
58:21
And it's sometimes confusing. Even though the advice that you
58:26
get at the same week, let's say, from two different people
58:29
doesn't make sense in that time, but a year or a month or a few
58:33
months later, it does make sense.
58:34
So it's always worth it. But it's also sometimes being
58:39
convinced of we made a decision that we are going to follow
58:43
through with it and if we notice something's wrong then we'll
58:45
reach out again. Who, So what?
58:49
What's 1? Decision that you took on early,
58:52
that you would take again without any hesitate.
58:56
Oh. Early on, I think yeah, to
59:05
that's a hard one to always communicate with each other and
59:11
and try to to learn and really communicate with your end
59:16
customer. I think there's, there's nothing
59:18
more valuable than there's no point in making something
59:24
without actually having tested if what you're making makes
59:27
sense for your user. So, yeah, never underestimate
59:32
that. And I think we keep doing that
59:35
and we've always said that. So any what's that?
59:39
A conscious decision? Like, OK, this is one of the
59:42
principles on which we base our company that we always
59:46
communicate. I think it was the other way
59:49
around. We started.
59:50
Doing it and then obviously later we made our values or our,
59:54
our goals or all that and we sat together and we said, OK, what
59:58
are we, what is some values that we want to work towards and what
1:00:02
is something we do now that we actually want to keep and has
1:00:05
brought us very far. I think that's one of the things
1:00:08
we also, we started with Baffa, so part time that we actually
1:00:12
started with that to even get going and we just kept doing it.
1:00:18
But also, yeah, I don't think we've figured out everything
1:00:22
yet. So that will come, yeah.
1:00:26
So one of the things you're figuring out is funding.
1:00:31
You're looking for funding, if I'm not mistaken.
1:00:35
What is something you know about it now that you would have liked
1:00:39
to learn earlier? Or what is something you learned
1:00:43
about this data you think is valuable for other people to
1:00:47
understand when they go on the funding journey?
1:00:50
Yeah, to. Think what people always advise.
1:00:53
Like at least know your market or your numbers or all that
1:00:59
stuff. And and we knew that someone
1:01:01
advised us that from the beginning, but that's just you
1:01:04
just need to know it. And then the whole your whole
1:01:06
story, your vision that will nobody will listen to your
1:01:09
vision or your story if you don't say the numbers right
1:01:13
away. So I think that's something that
1:01:16
has helped us, but also has killed us sometimes because we
1:01:21
weren't focused enough on it. Anything now with fundraising?
1:01:27
I think it's. Also really.
1:01:29
Cold species, especially in healthcare, that there's so many
1:01:33
people driven by it intrinsically that that's the
1:01:37
people who, who, who will invest and who will know about it or
1:01:42
who will care for your company. And there's so many people that
1:01:45
really don't understand the healthcare sector of like, why
1:01:48
don't you have sales yet? Or they don't understand the
1:01:50
long cycles, or they don't understand the fact that you
1:01:53
can't test unfinished products. And they are very skeptical of
1:01:59
the way we're doing business. And that's OK.
1:02:02
But to also see who's your audience on the other side of
1:02:06
the funding as a yeah, as an investor, to also not be
1:02:13
discouraged and people who just have different views on on
1:02:17
business and company, yeah, maybe then if they don't
1:02:20
understand. Your business, you're not for
1:02:23
them exactly. You're not the right investment,
1:02:27
Yeah. And that doesn't.
1:02:28
Mean that yeah, probably we can learn so much more from it.
1:02:32
Also those investors 'cause there's a truth to anything, but
1:02:36
it's also especially in early stage, there's a time and place
1:02:40
to to, to race with certain people.
1:02:44
Yeah, absolutely so. I'm developing AAI funding coach
1:02:51
that connects female founders and investors.
1:02:54
Not particularly in healthcare, but well also in healthcare.
1:02:59
I hope from your perspective, what's, what's a function you
1:03:05
would like to see in that too, if you would use it?
1:03:09
Yeah, I think a. Place where any question could
1:03:15
be asked. So if it is from who has a good
1:03:19
tip for what system to use to does like I'm looking to hire
1:03:23
this person or how have you arranged some legal issues?
1:03:27
I think it's really valuable, even though I'm, I'm in some
1:03:30
groups and I don't make use of it sometimes, but when I do or
1:03:35
when I see someone ask a question that resonates with me,
1:03:37
it's crazy how quickly you can actually make an impact for each
1:03:41
other. So yeah, it's, it's kind of like
1:03:47
just shooting in the dark. But when someone catches it,
1:03:49
it's, it's immensely powerful and, and just nice to see the
1:03:55
same names and faces. Yeah.
1:03:58
To, to build a relationship within such a community.
1:04:01
And that comes back and you never know down the down the
1:04:04
line how you can support each other but also cheer each other
1:04:07
on. That's really.
1:04:09
Good advice. Build a community around it
1:04:12
where people can ask questions. So I will definitely pick that
1:04:16
up. So Fem Kedalison, thank you very
1:04:19
much for a really inspiring, energetic conversation.
1:04:24
If people want to learn more about you or about Bava, where
1:04:27
would you like to send them? Yeah, they can.
1:04:31
Go to our website. So bava dot AI is the website as
1:04:37
well. I think there's you can send an
1:04:40
e-mail. I think maybe my phone number is
1:04:43
on there. Reach out to whoever me or
1:04:45
whoever wants to. That's definitely the quickest
1:04:48
place. And otherwise, yeah, OK, I will
1:04:52
include those. Things in the show notes S MK
1:04:55
day Listen Thank you very much for an amazing conversation.
1:04:59
Really enjoyed it. Listeners, thank you very much
1:05:02
for listening. And as always, until the next
1:05:05
episode, keep being awesome. Well, that's it.
1:05:20
Thank you for listening to episode 150 of Women Disrupting
1:05:24
Tech titled How a Female Founder Builds Privacy.
1:05:27
First Tech for an Aging Population with Femke Dalesson
1:05:31
Femka, and I hope you found our conversation as energetic and
1:05:35
practical as we intended it to be.
1:05:37
And if you have any questions for Femka, please leave them in
1:05:41
the comments section on Spotify, Apple Podcast, or YouTube.
1:05:45
I do read all the comments and I'll make sure you get an
1:05:48
answer. If you want to connect with
1:05:50
Femka or learn more about PAVA, you can do so via the links in
1:05:54
the show notes. As usual, you can find the show
1:05:57
notes at Women Disrupting Tech dot blog and on my sub stack.
1:06:01
Find the links in the caption. If you found this episode
1:06:05
useful, I'd love for you to take a moment to rate and review the
1:06:08
show on Spotify, Apple Podcast or YouTube.
1:06:11
And if you don't follow us yet, please hit follow or subscribe
1:06:15
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1:06:18
Once again, thank you for listening.
1:06:20
I hope to see you in the next episode, and until then, as
1:06:24
always, keep being awesome.