Latest / Have you met you? / Ep. 21: Finding Yourself on the Other Side of Divorce with Gwendoline Van Doosselaere
Transcript
- Sasha Pearl: Gwendolyn, I'm so happy to have you on the podcast today. I would love for you to introduce yourself and what are you up to in the world? Gwendoline: Yeah, so thank you so much for having me. It's really an honor to be here with you ⁓ continue our conversation. So to briefly introduce myself, I am Gwendolyn Banducilari. I am the founder of Artemis Divorce Coaching. And what I do in the world professionally is that I help guide individuals through the chaos of divorce, this really turbulent and traumatic life experience that so many of us, about a third of the adult population goes through in adulthood. Sasha Pearl: Have you ever looked into the mirror and not recognize the person staring back at you? the podcast today, we have Gwendolyn from Artemis Divorce Coaching, talking things, divorce, marriage, parenthood, and the identity shifts and thresholds we have walk through to really develop business, life of our dreams. I'm your host, Sasha Pearl, The Energy Architect. ⁓ Let's get into it. Gwendoline: And really help women, especially, especially moms, find center and find their strength and their sovereignty and their agency and be able to bring that through these forever decisions that we make in divorce. So reconnect to depth of who they are and how they want to be and how they want to show up for themselves and their kids moving forward. Sasha Pearl: I love that. I love that. And so I feel like divorce coaching is like not a topic or thing to do in the world. ⁓ I would love to hear more about your journey and how you came upon this specific niche for yourself. Gwendoline: the end. Yeah, I had actually never heard of divorce coaching ⁓ prior to going through my own. And I didn't hear about, I didn't know that divorce coaching was even a thing until I was at the very end of mine and I was starting to build my own community and realizing that I needed to shift. ⁓ I needed to bring in people, women who had lived through divorce. had amazing friends from before. But I just needed to surround myself with people who were going through a similar transition and transformation. in doing that, I met a woman who was talking to me about her divorce coach and about how she had someone who was shepherding her through the process and helping ground her and talking all of the things that divorce touches that just don't belong your lawyer's office. They aren't necessarily covered therapy. And I always thought it was really intriguing. I, my divorce was a really long process. And out it, I ended up losing my job shortly after getting divorced. And I was getting these, ⁓ I had found becoming the informal go-to person for a lot of my friends who were navigating divorce. And a lot of their friends, people were coming to me asking for advice and just talking to me about their divorce stories. And ⁓ I... kept getting this whisper of divorce coach, divorce coach, go into divorce coach. Yeah, and it was very counter to what I had, never in my life did I think I was gonna grow up and become a divorce coach. ⁓ was counter to my background, which is more marketing and communications and doing kind of humanitarian centered work. But I was realizing that it was actually a continuation of that work. Sasha Pearl: We love whispers. We love them. Gwendoline: that I was becoming a divorce coach was helping, was allowing me to talk about some of our, you know, biggest relational societal issues and the intimacy of marriage and the intimacy of relationships. know, being able to kind of address like, what is it, what is the shape that we as women take when we are in marriage, when we have these societal scripts and how does it help or hinder us? And so I stepped into divorce coaching. got certified and I launched my business coming up on a year and a half ago. I have been, you know, I ⁓ been able to walk alongside women as they're navigating ⁓ really difficult situations. Sasha Pearl: Yeah, that's really incredible. I read that on your website that you've only been in business for a year and a half. thought that was really, I was like, thought he'd been doing it for a lot longer. So you that, what were you doing before this, before divorce coaching? Gwendoline: So before divorce coaching, immediately before that, I was working with a diversity equity and inclusion consultancy, talking about inclusive leadership in the Fortune 100 space. So talking to C-suite leaders about what it means to be inclusive leaders to more space for women, for communities of color, and to kind of look at ⁓ social conditioning and our biases in the ways that we both how we show up in the world, ⁓ even we do carry a lot of privilege. and the ways in which we maybe close off other types of intelligences and ways of being. And before that, I was running a nonprofit ⁓ and deeply in the human, know, kind of the humanitarian world of sustainability, environmentalism. And before that I was in advertising. So. Sasha Pearl: I that. I love the journey that you've gone on because I feel like when people have had multiple different careers, it brings in this so many different skill sets that actually really amplify the next iteration of what you do in the world. So I want to go back to when you were talking about what are the beliefs of the societal conditions of women in marriage that we should know about before we really dive into the discussion of divorce? Gwendoline: Yeah. Yeah, so some of the shapes that I see women taking in divorce or taking in marriage, and these are our social constructs of, think we are educated and raised to be accommodating, to be acquiescent, to be, even if we're really vocal, even if we're able to express our needs, the kind of expectation that girls grow up with is that you cede the space to the masculine, you cede the space to boys, you make the comfortable, you don't take up too much space. There's a really interesting study that was done by BYU a little while ago now was talking about the impression, when is it that people, that men have the impression that women are dominating the airspace? And you would think that that impression would be when women are dominating like 60 % of ⁓ meeting space. But actually the threshold for when it feels like women are taking too much space is when they're talking about 30 % of the time in a conversation. ⁓ Sasha Pearl: WHA- Okay, interesting. Gwendoline: Yeah, so all of that, you I think there's so many more things to talk about, but maybe the biggest thing is just that the space that we grow up believing that we can take and that we internalize being able to take both within ourselves in our relationships and in society is much smaller than our actual footprint. And that's in the divorce journey. It's a big growth edge for women because if they stay in that smaller footprint, Not because anything's wrong with them, not because they're insecure, but just because that's what we've been conditioned to believe. And you have to really challenge yourself to be like, damn it, I need to ask for what I deserve. I need to ask for what my kids and I need to thrive in this next phase of life. And it's really uncomfortable. It's really uncomfortable to take up the fullness of yourself and to be assertive, not aggressive, assertive. Because again, we all know it, men are leaders, women are bossy. Sasha Pearl: hate that so much. So far as this initiation your own divorce, you say it was the quality ⁓ of how your were going to grow up? What gave you the courage to ⁓ stand up for and to advocate for your needs and what you wanted? Gwendoline: Yeah, think, know, looking back and reflecting on these, these kind of pivotal moments for me, and think this is common in women's journeys, I had, being a parent is what changed everything. So becoming a mom is what, what transformed things I was able to tolerate and live through and just. ⁓ know, excuse away or, yeah, again, tolerate became intolerable once I had kids. And part of it, big piece of it was, ⁓ realizing that I was responsible for what was being modeled in our home. And I was, you know, even if it wasn't necessarily mine, I was still, somehow consenting to it and, ⁓ allowing it to be in the space that my kids were growing up in. And I just couldn't, I couldn't be implicitly for. ⁓ the dynamics that they were witnessing for the home temperature that they were growing up in. so the only solution, the solution that really like propelled me out of my marriage and through divorce and into this phase now, because ⁓ be we don't stop being who we are post divorce. we're, you know, I'm it is still a relationship with my kid's father. So that doesn't stop. It just changes, it just changes shape. It's in a more abbreviated form now. But my kids are propelled me, motivated me to to ⁓ something very different for them. Sasha Pearl: love ⁓ ⁓ on her website, there this before photo of her and an after photo of her. I looked the before photo and was like, I don't think that's the same person I talked to on the call. And then I down I was like, ⁓ my God. So ⁓ for you in before the divorce and you figuring stuff out and realizing like, wow, I literally can't ignore. can't ignore this anymore. And I think that even in that, like on the website, you are also saying like, I was ready to just like leave my soul behind and like, access it in another lifetime, like you were ready to just like put yourself down enough to make that the marriage work. And I like got chills and wanted to cry when I read that statement. then to see the before photo and then the after photo was like, wow, like, it's so insane that our environments ⁓ ⁓ really affect us specifically at Gwendolyn's also a two four projector. So super sensitive to all the environments in we live. ⁓ But would love to hear more about like, where were you at in this before moment? And like, what were you doing? How were you thinking about life? What was your identity that you were holding there? And then the threshold of divorce moving through that and on the other side, where are you at now in that identity? So let's start with the before identity and then yeah, what really shifted for you moving through the divorce? Gwendoline: Yeah, so I getting to the point of that picture that I have on my website wasn't, it was a slow cumulative process of first into it's such a common thing to kind of feel some sort of when you go into motherhood of, now do I exist just my kids, especially when your kids are infants? It's an all-consuming experience as it should be. And ⁓ was finding that I wasn't that I had ⁓ thought that was just going through motherhood and motherhood is a deep transformation and transition. But what was happening is that I was starting to ⁓ look at in the mirror and just not recognize at all. And I know that's a very common experience too. But I remember this moment of looking at myself in the mirror and I was like, who is this person? Like, who is it that's staring across the sink for me? I do not recognize myself in my face. ⁓ eyes were almost, my eyes looked, I had no more pallor in my skin. I just didn't look alive. I looked gray and ⁓ happened. ⁓ enough that I was like, this is not fatigue. This is not having a toddler and an infant. This is something way deeper. This is an existential death that I'm living through. know, again, for the people who of operate on the energetic realm, was like, it was like my soul, was vacant. And I couldn't, like I had curled up into the tightest ball within myself. And there was no more light in my eyes. My skin was really lacking any sort of vitality. And I remember actually staring at a close friend who was going through a similar process in a similar time and looking at her and finding the same grayness in her. And I said that to her, I was like, you are not alive in yourself anymore. this is, whatever's happening now is killing you spiritually. And having fantasies of like, Sasha Pearl: Woof! Gwendoline: putting my kids to down for nap time and falling asleep with them or falling asleep with them at night and having these fantasies of, well, this is just what marriage is. ⁓ guess like maybe hopefully in my next lifetime, I'll have a better marriage and I'm just, know, was more painful to think about ⁓ leaving marriage than to think about like, I don't know, than dying, guess, dying within myself. And I know now that when you start, when you're having these like, these rescue fantasies, or when you are basically entombing yourself in your current life, it is survival escapism. It's like your soul is like, there's no other solution here, so let's think, let's have at least one positive thought for the next lifetime. And that it's a really big cue that what's happening for you is really not okay. And that it's a good point to get help and resources, and you don't have to live like that. forever. then deciding to deciding that I couldn't do that, like I couldn't entomb myself again for my kids. I was like, no, you've got to. I actually had I read some of these words that were like, if you're thinking if you keep waiting for the white knight, you know, shining armor, white horse, rescue fantasy to pluck you out of your life, which is what I was literally daydreaming about. It's time for you leave your marriage. And that was, I heard it at just the right time and was able to start getting help for myself. And then slowly and surely through the separation and divorce process, which is excruciating. Like it's very painful. I was not expecting it to feel like my heart was literally breaking. And sometimes the pain of it would stop, would arrest me and it would take my breath away. And what... I, the way that I phrase this, the way that I explain it for myself is, and I don't mean this sexually when I say this, but it's like your erotic life force almost extinguishes. in that grayness, you this person who was staring back at me, who was gray and sad and lifeless. And I, I look, I look like 10 years older than I actually was in that photo. You are, you are ⁓ extinguishing And so what happened through the separation and divorce process is that I started coming back into myself and started coming alive again. I can see that in pictures of me or how my family, their to me when I met them for Christmas time, the first Christmas in my separation, they were like, you were like this radiant light. You had finally returned to yourself and your radiance had returned. It's such a true transformation that I see in clients and that I see in other people who've gone through the end of one type of life into a different way of being and becoming in themselves. Sasha Pearl: Yeah, and I'm really curious too, like obviously you stepped out of a relationship that was like literally killing your soul and you became just like this empty vessel, which is like, it's just like so insane how we can still operate in the world and have our soul live outside of us, right? And have like zero connection to it. And so for me, I guess, I think of, or when I'm envisioning your story in my brain, I'm like, what the things that called you back to yourself? Like what, because you ⁓ go of this massive undertaking, you had more time and space for yourself. So what were the activities or the readings or the experiences that you had to get you back into finding your own light again? Because if your soul is so far outside of you, what are you actually bringing back into alignment and authenticity with who you actually are? Because that is the magnetism in the world that you get to exist in now. Gwendoline: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's an interesting question because there is a real journey of trauma through leaving a marriage. And so almost talking about two different planes of existence. There's what the ⁓ the trauma that lives in the physical body and the trauma that lives ⁓ your brain and in your spiritual space too of what you experience. this, a divorce is traumatic, even if it's the most amicable thing. It is just a traumatic thing that we go through. And so there was, very much I was realizing that a lot of the activities I was gravitating towards ⁓ immediately after separation were, were tending to my trauma and it's things that we just don't think about. I would to music, I still do this, but less frequently, super loud. And I to ⁓ all of favorite pop artists. Everything that I that there hadn't been. the music that there hadn't been space for before. in my marital life, and I listened to it super loud, and I would like to have dance parties by myself in my kitchen. And dance and music, you the vibrations of music are known for, are known to kind of like recenter you and bring you back into yourself and move the trauma through. And so that was, that was a big calling back. And I was also, I was running a lot at the time and doing things that were bringing me rhythmically back into myself. I I had started building kind of a community, a new community of friends, which is really important. We underestimate the need ⁓ to rebuild for ourselves. And I was bringing in as many pleasant and distracting experiences as possible because I ⁓ both needed you know, the emptiness of the times I didn't have my kids, it was very empty. it's, ⁓ it's It's like heartbreaking to, you know, spend the winter holiday and to not have your kids for these, ⁓ these where you're to having them. So I I needed to take care of myself through those moments. And I went out with new friends. I did silly. just tried to fill my time because distraction isn't always bad thing. And And I explored almost every healing modality that came my way. And did a lot of, I have a strong, ⁓ I set monthly moon circles with girlfriends. I tried to, yeah, I ⁓ a lot. have a really strong visualization. My brain thinks ⁓ visions and energy colors. And so I would also think about how I was processing ⁓ marriage and separation and how I was literally, I remember talking about this with my therapist at the time, I was trying to exhale the darkness of that out of my body. I like, I do not want to ingest the smoke of the toxicity of my marriage. I don't want it to metabolize through my skin, through my organs. I want it. And so was literally doing the lion breath in my kitchen on the floor. sobbing being like, out of my body. Sasha Pearl: What? Gwendoline: Yeah. ⁓ think realizing probably subconsciously that I needed to tend to the layers of the transformation, the spiritual, the emotional, the physical, the community, social. and just, yeah, reconnecting to the part of myself that likes to be social and go out and enjoy good conversation and be in the sunshine and read paint my walls like the darkest color emerald. ⁓ Sasha Pearl: this idea of like transmuting this, like, this like before and getting out of your body through somatic through creativity, through spirituality, through of these other modalities. I think that's like something Gwendoline: Mm-hmm. Sasha Pearl: Like the visual aspect of that is like so potent and so powerful. And I think even in how you speak, have this way of bringing visions to the story. Like ⁓ have very descriptive language and I'm actually really obsessed with it. That's great. Gwendoline: in. Sasha Pearl: well, you you're outgrowing seriousness. ⁓ was the seriousness part of this, like, before, because of the stuff that you were dealing with? Is it something that's always been a part of your identity? And what does it mean to outgrow seriousness for you in this chapter of your life? Gwendoline: Yeah, I don't have the full answer for that. When I was a kid, I think I must have been, I don't know, eight or nine or something like that. My parents put a mug for me at the breakfast table that said, life is not meant to be taken seriously. Sasha Pearl: Ha ha! Wait, wait, you're Capricorn, right? Okay, okay, yeah, so self-explained. Gwendoline: Right, exactly. Well, and so that's how I explain it for a long time, is that Capricorn ages in reverse and we start out serious and then we get playful. But I think I've always had a playful side. ⁓ honestly, part of it is the relativity of life, of having had enough life experience, good, bad, and all the things in between, to ⁓ both take it personally anymore, to just be like, you know what, life is tough. ⁓ sometimes is going to present you with some ⁓ hard challenges and I had a conversation with one of my oldest ⁓ when was kind of in the, when I was experiencing like job loss on the heels of my divorce. And I remember saying to her like, I feel so abandoned by the universe. I feel like ⁓ I, I like, I to follow the good girl, the good student. I ⁓ well in school. I was as loving as I could be in my last marriage. I'm trying to be a good mom. I am trying to be in integrity with myself through life. And I just feel like the keeps slapping me away, being like, you are not going to get this. And she to me, she was like, you are a child of the universe. you belong here. And I had that sticky note on my wall for a long time. And it was such a, and it's actually, it's a conversation I ended up having with clients a lot too, because they also feel that they feel abandoned. And it was the important pivot to continue to not take things so personally that, you know, they're not happening to me because I did something bad. to them as, you know, this is another opportunity and I can either take it with ⁓ super seriousness, ⁓ going to weigh me down and feel like every decision is the most critical decision ever, or I can be out there making mistakes and deciding that I'm going to do better differently tomorrow. people say the older you get, the more you realize you don't know anything about life. And I feel like that's true. ⁓ Sasha Pearl: you It's so true. I'm like am I ever gonna figure it out? Like I don't know if I'm ever gonna figure it Gwendoline: Yeah, so I think that's it. just the playfulness of I don't have to be locked into to be, to pay really close attention to the energy of something. And for realizing I need to step towards expansiveness, even if it's hard, it has to feel, it's like expansiveness lets me know that I'm growing somewhere. If a decision starts to feel like I'm caging myself in, it means I ⁓ can. only ever be that version of that version and size of the idea of myself. that means that you're, you you're always staying smaller than what the next push should be. So that's what it means for me right now. Sasha Pearl: That's amazing. Well, also, I'm also curious when you were talking about that, like the smallness. It's like, well, if your identity before divorce was keeping yourself as small as possible, it's like, that's a habit. That's a pattern for you, right? So to actively choose to want to be expansive and to know that like the spectrum of, if I'm making decisions that I'm feeling caged in by, it's not for me. But if I'm making decisions that feel expansive and I'm excited by it, that is for me. So how has that been walking through like that identity then for you has been like really hard in moments, really easy. Is it just been like, ⁓ it's just so much more easier to be like, I'm not gonna take this so seriously and I'm just gonna go try because I have one life to fucking live. Let's go with it. Gwendoline: yeah, that's a big piece of realizing like I have, this is my only chance walking this lifetime as Gwendolyn. So I might as well out in all the ways that I can. ⁓ And there's an piece here that goes back to kind of the social conditioning, is something, yeah, which is something that I talk about a lot in different circles. I think many women also internalize the credibility gap. So I think for so many of us, you know, we, Sasha Pearl: you Gwendoline: We are worth, just because it's on our resume, there's a statistic that a man applies for a job when he's 50 % qualified, women apply for jobs when they're 100 % qualified. And for me, walking the world as a woman and then also coaching women, we are already overqualified, but that doesn't mean that we get believed. It doesn't mean that our stories, our credibility, our credentials, our professionalism gets believed. gets... Oftentimes it's just dismissed as, well, that's just your opinion. Never mind that it sits on mountains of research that you've probably personally led. And that had felt really frustrating for a long time. I realized I was trying to battle this, of proving myself against this perception. And ⁓ also feeling really sensitive to ⁓ the attacks that can be directed at women, the ways in which your sense of self can be immediately attacked or persecuted, kind of deciding that I just don't want to play in that realm anymore. I that's not entirely up to me, but just I can choose to continue to let that conditioning slow me down, ⁓ or can decide that ⁓ honestly, kind of looking at the men around me and I'm like, you guys, wow. I'm gonna, I wanna walk the world like that. So it's, and in my way, you know, not, not doing it their way, but so it's, it just don't, I just feel like it's baggage that I have decided I don't wanna play with right now. Sasha Pearl: I know that you're new to human design, but in your human design chart, you have an open ego center. So what that just means is that you are, you're one of your life lessons is really understanding your worth and your willpower in this world. And so when you are met with like men who are walking the way that they do and applying with whatever the hell that they want and they're getting it, you're, yeah, of course it's going to be fucking triggering. This is something that you have to like learn though in this lifetime, because we're all inherently worthy. Gwendoline: You Thank you. Sasha Pearl: and then also with your splenic, ⁓ authority, like, you know, in the moment, if something's correct with you or not, if you are embodied, your soul is aligned with who you are. You can hear yes or no immediately. And like, that is just like, it's just such a powerful ⁓ gift you do have once it's turned online. Right. And I'm sure, I mean, I don't know what it was like in the before, but like in this moment now, it feels like you are definitely so aligned. It's so magnetic. and how fucking powerful it is to like, be like, okay. I'm just going to take it. I'm going to go be like these men, but my way. Like that's so powerful, right? Especially after coming off of a divorce, starting your own business and like really helping other women step into their power. Like you are literally leading by example. And like that is, you know, one of the most inspiring things that you can do it, I think as a human being. I would also love to hear more about how divorce as a crucible is. Gwendoline: Thank you. Yeah. yeah, is a deep portal for transformation. That is not something that people, you you have to be at a certain phase in the divorce journey before you can hear that, that before it doesn't just sound like, my God, quit give me, like, don't give me your juju right now. I am in the deepest pain of my life. ⁓ But it... Sasha Pearl: and you can learn philosophy with that. Yeah. Gwendoline: I find that this framing is especially helpful. It's especially helpful for ⁓ typically for people who need to initiate the divorce because they don't understand why being confronted with this depth of despair and also with this feeling, this really acute sense of responsibility for the pain that they're about to bring into their partner, their family. They carry guilt of kicking off the decision, though it's not, ⁓ it usually ⁓ so many things for somebody to get to the point of divorce. And when you shift your framing and you think about divorce as this doorway that has come into your life, you're now at this door, this threshold. And what it's asking of you, what it's inviting you to do if you open the door is to transform and become a much fuller version of yourself than you ever imagined that you could be. Midlife is ripe with these opportunities. Like that is, that's what midlife is about. But divorce isn't especially potent one. And it you to kind of step into the wilderness of the unknown, the wilderness of the chaos and the turbulence, and to understand the spiritual journey that you're about to step into. The ways which you're gonna be confronted with yourself. And the ways in which you have an invitation to grow. And you have an invitation to become a much more, I use the word sovereignty a lot, you have to accept responsibility for your agency and your life and all of the cards that you've been dealt and how you are going to move forward with all of your baggage. And can be really, it is really terrifying. There's an analogy that I came across ⁓ that helpful for me because the divorce journey felt like I was on a life raft in the ocean during nightfall like, a year and a half, with direction. And what can feel the analogy that I heard was that ⁓ whenever we are crossing a threshold, it's like you're stepping into the river, you're stepping off the coast, off the shore, into the river, and you know that you wanna get to the other side. You have no idea what the other side is. You don't know what the other riverbank is gonna look like. You just know that you're floating along and you keep looking back because back is what you know. And back is where your people are and back is where... who your sense of self was. it's ⁓ because it's the familiar. But so long as you keep turning back, you can't be turned forward to what's coming. And you have fear about what's coming, but you ⁓ have ⁓ energetically yourself to that next coast, to that next riverbank. And it's such a powerful shift. Sasha Pearl: Yeah, I mean, I love that analogy so much because I mean, you can apply that in like any form, whether that's divorce, leaving your corporate job to start your own thing, having kids, you know, finally saying yes to a partner or moving in with like it could all the all the things, right? So I really, I really love that you brought that through. I guess for me, haven't been married, I haven't had a divorce, but I am really curious, like what are those like, if you are so lost and you're so detached from who you are? Gwendoline: Yeah. Sasha Pearl: How do you come to the identity of actually saying, I'm ready to choose me. I'm ready to walk through that threshold. I'm ready to look forward and not look back. Do you have any insights or like stories around like that shift in identity and that like redirection of your life? Gwendoline: Yeah, I can speak more to women's journeys and specifically to moms because there is a different catalyst. I think this is probably true for parents overall. You actually don't pick yourself first. You pick your kids first. And that goes back to how women are socialized of like being the, you're supposed to sacrifice yourself. You actually don't pick yourself first. You pick your kids first. And that goes back to how women are socialized of like being the, you're supposed to sacrifice yourself. for for motherhood. I that hook, that frame, because it's easy for women. It's easier for women to be like, you know what? I can't think about doing something for myself because that first still feels selfish. But I can do a lot of things for my kids. And I can do a lot of hard things for my kids. And so once they can step into that hook, then they can start to see how when they do things that are for the betterment of themselves, they're also helping their kids. And that can become, that's a huge opening and doorway forward. when I've had this conversation with ⁓ who maybe don't have the parent identity, oftentimes it feels like for them is that they're, well, it feels like this for a lot of people ⁓ leaving hard marriages is that they're in the constant tornado and they're in the spin. And it's... being able to give them opportunities to experience the non-chaos, the non-fog, to be like, what happens when you take yourself out of this environment? happens if you disconnect from your partner for a handful of days or you get out of your house? And when they can step back into the state of normalcy and calm, when they don't have confusion anymore in their, because literally it's, you know, when you're in the state of dissonance, It literally reads as confusion in your mind and you can't make a decision. And when they are in the state of clarity and then they go back to the environment of confusion, we can start to talk about how this is a telltale sign that this environment of confusion is not, you cannot live here. So what are the decisions that you need to make to live, go, create an environment of calm and clarity for yourself? that, you know, so it's kind of a slow exit. because you have to get people off of the vehicle first, which is the chaos of their marriage. Sasha Pearl: guess that kind of brings me almost like there's a framework that you do use in like divorce coaching or in your in the work that you do. Do you have like a high level framework of how you bring people from them? You're meeting people at different phases, right? of their journey, people who are thinking about divorce, people who are going through divorce and people who are post divorce, correct? So do you have a general philosophy or framework that you use to really support women and feeling empowered and like coming back to themselves in in their journey? Gwendoline: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, so like overwhelmingly, I'm working with women who are going through leaving really difficult divorces. one of the, I'm sorry, difficult marriages. So one the first things that that presents in our conversations is usually seeing someone who is deeply rattled and scared, like deeply, profoundly scared. And they've been living in this state of survival, ⁓ of panic, and they they're often not even realizing that they're in a state of like constant adrenaline and cortisone over their flooded and know their voices shake there and and what the beginning stages ⁓ of work together is usually like deeply validating and mirroring back what they experience because Because they're they're often gaslit by their partners. They're gas lighting themselves. They're like minimizing what they're going through ⁓ and society gaslights us all the time and being able just be the mirror of like, you really ⁓ have been living in an environment that has felt really threatening to you. And that's not a commentary on what is or wasn't happening. They experience it as a deep threat and that experience is real. And so the validation can become really grounding. And from there, we kind of work on identifying like, well, what are the big pieces in the buckets that we practically need to move forward? Like, how do we validate your emotional state right now and what that has looked like, bring you to clarity and to a little bit more peace and groundedness and then start to move through the legal side, the financial side, the parenting side, requires ⁓ having your thinking mind online. ⁓ ⁓ often can't get to the thinking mind until you've calmed the panicked mind. So it's first dealing with Sasha Pearl: Mm. Gwendoline: the level of panic and fear and then moving into the more practical components and address, you the panic will still come through in certain ways. then, you know, anticipating, connecting to, ⁓ talk about the vision. What do they hope to create? What do they hope to feel in the next life, in this next life? Because, you know, we don't always have control over the material things, but we, so women just want peace, a sanctuary for them and their kids. So, and some people are like, I really wanna grow my career, but there's a sense of wanting a sanctuary. And hold that vision and then we start to move towards it and really identify like, what are the non-negotiables for getting you there? ⁓ And in conversations, realize that you're actually more flexible. You don't need the car, you don't need the exact house per se. ⁓ ⁓ You become a lot more flexible and then that usually facilitates the negotiations and keeps people anchored on what's really important for them. And also try to future cast because it's excruciatingly difficult to ⁓ put yourself, none of can predict who we're gonna be in five years. And what we, ourselves today thinks that we will, our five, ourself from five years from now wants is often really wrong. And so we'll also talk about, you know, what's typical, what other people, what tends to be the normal stuff that people regret or wish that they had done differently. kind of normalizing the experience. Sasha Pearl: Yeah. So I would like to go back to future casting. So tell me a little bit more about what you mean. Gwendoline: Yeah, so future casting is trying to picture, you know, say, I don't know, say you're 35, 40, 45. What is, say you're 40, what is 45 year old you going to want? And it's actually incredibly difficult for us to anticipate our future needs and to anticipate them holistically and, you know, to know that actually we're gonna be super interested in XYZ instead of ABC. And of it means connecting to our deepest sense of self, our essence. But part of it also is looking at ⁓ have been other people's experiences? What do who are five years from divorce or separation wish that they had done differently? A really big ⁓ can be about residences, shifting homes, also thinking about parenting time. And a lot of moms will say when they initially get divorced, they're stuck a state of survival mode. And they are protective, which is normal. It's a very normal reaction. And they want their kids ⁓ with all the time. that is an amazing reflex. And ⁓ then themselves years down the road is like, wow, I wish I had had actually a little bit more support or that. I had expected more of my co-parent when it came to the kids. Or with dating of initially women will be like, oh my God, if I never touch another body again, that will be too soon. No, thank you. And then realizing like, actually, damn it, I do have a sexual identity that I do wanna live and exhibit. And in... Sasha Pearl: You Gwendoline: allowing themselves the potential to grow in a way that they maybe don't anticipate today. Sasha Pearl: Okay. And so when you're taking them through this like future casting, it like more of this like meditation, visualization, or are you taking them through categories of life? So love, career, relationship, kids, ⁓ self care? Like how are you breaking it down in a way where it's like super like, we're gonna ⁓ really clear, big vision, and then we like break it down into each of these like categories, or is there just kind of just like open-ended what comes up? Gwendoline: It really depends on the person and where they're at. Some people not think in vision and they don't think that way. Some are really clear. They're like, this is what I want ⁓ and is what I'm gonna keep going for. And it's like, okay, that's great. For other is the visualization exercise of like, okay, talk to me what an ideal framework would look like with you and your kids three months from now, six months from now, ⁓ five years now, high school versus elementary school. For others, it's living, it's career, it's how do you imagine yourself? would be ideal for you for a money situation? Where your passion today and where do you think you wanna grow it career-wise? And for other people, especially those who ⁓ don't think vision, what I tend to do is reflect back to them the themes that I hear in our conversations. like, you keep coming, like these are the core things. You keep coming back to your family. You keep coming back to... ⁓ time together, you keep coming back to wanting vacations. So it's like, this is what I'm hearing is really important to you. So when you're a divorce negotiation, let's use that as your anchors. Because the thing that's true too is being in that state of survival when you're exiting a marriage, we're talking to the reptilian brain, like you're not talking to the highest level of yourself yet. It takes time and it takes, I always think about things like as a spiral, you just keep coming back to it and give yourself permission to change and evolve and adapt. Sasha Pearl: Yeah. And I love, I love the framework, if we're going back to the beginning of this topic, where you're like, we have to get you out of this like flight, right? We have to get you back into the body, at least into your like, what do you call it? Body mind? Is that right? Okay. Right. Like more of this, like just getting you back to like, just even neutral at this point. Then you move into like the tactic. You're like, okay, now that we can get you your calm, cool, collected enough, we can move you into like the tactical. Gwendoline: I didn't, but that's a good one. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Sasha Pearl: tactical things that you actually do need to move through the divorce. And then you move into, and now you get walk into another threshold of your new identity. And we get to do that through your vision casting. Is correct? ⁓ I that. think that's like... Gwendoline: Yeah, that's the overarching. Yeah, it's the overarching framework. Sasha Pearl: What'd you just say? I love that. And so I know a lot of your to walk through the threshold of divorce was because of your kids. So tell me a little bit more about becoming a parent ⁓ have you always wanted kids? Was this something that, or was this something that just kind of came online while you were in the marriage, et cetera? Like where were you at? Yeah, with becoming a parent. Gwendoline: I actually didn't want to have kids. I have to say that differently. I didn't want to have kids for the phase of life that I was in. you know, in my teens and in my 20s, I did not want kids, to say it more exactly, I didn't want kids at that time in my life. I wasn't ready for it. I wasn't ready to be, I don't know, to me it was like being a young parent. Sasha Pearl: Fascinating. Okay. Gwendoline: which I think always felt really foreign to my mom maybe who was always so steadfast in her desire to have kids. And I was like, I will be a parent someday. I just don't want to be a parent right now. And I didn't feel the need or the desire to have kids until I turned 30. And then it was, I, you whatever biological clock, can explain it away a thousand different ways, but I, became this that was, it was so big. I was like, I have to become, I want to have children. that opened me up to the idea of marriage. I had been with my partner for a really long time. So I was like, think I'm ready for marriage now. And for starting a family and becoming a parent, having my first child felt like I was completing my biological ripening. I don't know how else to say it. I felt like. my whole, the full life cycle within my cells was complete. I felt like I had fully ripened. My job was done. I was like, I am complete. And I really felt, you know, the circle come to a close. And ⁓ I pregnant with my son, knew I would these dreams of him. I knew that he with a sister and I would have these dreams of him with ⁓ like the full. his dad and I, him and then his sister, and I just knew that there were supposed to be, I don't know, that was what it was. yeah, and I had so many other visions with him when I was pregnant with him. And then, you know, when he was born, I wasn't immediately ready to get pregnant again, but within a year of him being born, started having, I described this to my daughter. It was like one day she was in the, I don't know, the ether of the universe and she was peering, literally pulling apart like the energetic fabric of the ceiling. And I was on the corner of the bed and I remember looking up and feeling like I could feel this little baby spirit being like poking their head out through it, being like, you ready for me? And then I was pregnant within the next month and I knew she was a girl. I was like, okay, here we are. Sasha Pearl: love it. Gwendoline: Yeah, and it is. ⁓ Parenting is exquisitely difficult and beautiful and ⁓ Sasha Pearl: Yeah, love that so much. There's like kind of a twofold to this because our dreams tell us so much. Like that's our subconscious, that's our connection to ⁓ otherworldly. And I love that you ⁓ honored the visions and really were so open to seeing the little baby from ethers there. ⁓ I'm really curious though, ⁓ So many women or moms that I know specifically have been like, I thought I was intuitive or I thought I was magical, but then I have kids. And this, it just completely wide open, like a whole nother level of existence of magic in the world because of this, another threshold that you walk through, right? And I'm just curious what your, like from maiden to mother experience was for you. And if you really, you know, Gwendoline: Yeah. Sasha Pearl: felt that intuition or that magic come online in a whole other way. Gwendoline: Yeah, I think. I think one of the really kind of elementary or foundational I experience it ⁓ ⁓ always think of like Einstein or the, when look at like a design of black holes, sometimes it's ⁓ pictured a ⁓ graph, graph paper, and then where the black hole is, like all of the lines are getting drawn into the density of ⁓ the hole, and I don't mean to be. ⁓ I don't mean to be associating my kids with a black hole, but I feel like that is the weight of their gravitational pull on me. And wherever they are in the world, can, like my body is sensed, connected them. And I'm like, it's like a cardinal direction. Okay, they're in that part of the city right now. And I that, especially when they were babies, was like, ⁓ I am, my of gravity be over there. I'm too far removed from where I need to be. And, Sasha Pearl: Mm-hmm. Gwendoline: I can feel my kids intuitively and I can sense things with them and understand them on a deeper level. And I also feel like they get me in a really deep way. They sense me in a deep way. And when my son was a baby, I felt like I had a maximum distance that he could spiritually tolerate before he would have an outburst or something. And it was... It's a really crazy experience. Breastfeeding. Yeah, I'll show this. My mom's in breastfeed. And so when I was like kind of turning to her to understand, well, how do you raise kids? Like, do do? What do I do with these infants now who need to feed? And I decided that I wanted to breastfeed. And I was lucky enough that it came. I was able to produce a lot of milk. Sasha Pearl: But I... Gwendoline: And to discover the symbiotic relationship between me and this other being where my body would literally forecast when he would be hung. Like would feel the letdown ⁓ milk coming in and then a minute later he would cry. And so was like our bodies were ⁓ in relationship. And I know that that's a ⁓ lot of a lot of breastfeeding moms experience that too. ⁓ It just makes you realize how much, in dialogue we are non-verbally with each other at all times and that we can sense each other. And I bring into kind of the divorce and the marital space of talking about it terms of our nervous system. It's like, you can smell, ⁓ don't know why you smell. like, nervous system is sensing this other person's nervous system. ⁓ And just being their presence, if they've been a threatening or safe person to you, already turns the alarm bells on for you. And it's like, we already have this really deep sense of knowing in us. And just have turned off our ears to it. We just don't pay attention. And the same with people that you meet. Your system's already telling you, this is somebody you can step forward with ⁓ trust not. Maybe you should pay attention here to what's not being said, because ⁓ still communicated. And then that's also true in parenting of ⁓ one of big conversations I have with my clients is how parenting changes in divorce, which isn't, you ⁓ not something you anticipate. like, I'm still gonna get, you have to pay, there are different parenting skillsets and nervous system presence as you're going through this really traumatic thing in your nervous is ⁓ a light. it's like, but you actually have to find a way to become a centering force for your kids. So that's really, really work. And it's, you know, it's, is again, part of adulthood and maturation and forward. Like you don't always know what that looks like, but you will find a way through. Sasha Pearl: Yeah, wow, that's really powerful. think we could have like an entire conversation on that I'm like, very ⁓ by that conversation. But are going to wrap up here. So how can people work with you in the world? Gwendoline: Yeah, I work with people one-on-one. do divorce coaching one-on-one right now, and they can go to my website at ArtemisDivorceCoaching.com. typically I work throughout the duration of the divorce process, which often lasts year plus, and we'll meet at regular intervals at the pace of divorce, which is about every two to three weeks, and talk about all the things. I'm also in the process of building the Divorce School for Women. which is an online community for women to be able to have the support that they need through exiting, again, really challenging marriages. It's just a little bit, it's different needs and different ⁓ to divorce and life after. And that community makes a world of difference. So I'm in the process of building that. And I am taking ⁓ people who interested in being part of the pilot program with me. And then I'm also co-building something called the Portland Divorce Directory, which is bringing together the local divorce professionals because one of the big things that's missing, know, divorce is completely unsupported. is like the second most traumatic thing we go through. And when you think about the other big traumas, moving job change, loss of a loved one, there are whole institutions set up to support those transitions. And other than, you know, the legal system, family law here, there's almost nothing for divorce, nothing that's very expansive and supportive. And so the Portland divorce directory kind of serves as this place of bringing together all of the professionals that you need. Because so many of us, it's like trying to move a house without movers or packing tape or boxes. And deserve differently. Sasha Pearl: think that's actually really insane because you said a third of the population is going through a divorce. You're going to have a job times a million for rest of your life because it's just going to get higher from here on out, especially with all this instant gratification. That is wild that there aren't other resources. I think it's like, well, A, it's magical that you have the Portland directory happening. I was like, that's dope. And then you also are building a community of women who are going through divorce and going through hard struggles. to point, it is so isolating. So how beautiful you get to build that. within community. And I just want to, a few things about your energetics too quickly is that you're a fourth line. So you are meant to be building community within community for sure. And then you also have the 1333 channel, which is all about people want to share their stories with you. People want you to hold their stories and then you get to then integrate them into your lived experiences and then share them when they are ready to be shared. So this, channel is so specific for coaches and Gwendoline: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sasha Pearl: and therapist. I just really love that you are really, really feels like you are in such alignment with your unique energetics in the world. ⁓ tidbit. You're welcome. And then last question I have for you. If someone were to really know you, what would they need to know about you? Gwendoline: ⁓ thank you. Yeah. you ⁓ gosh. an interesting question. I was asked that and I really like to say bad words. That's maybe one thing. ⁓ ⁓ maybe one of the things to know about me is that I am a internal processor and so I don't actually externally process with, that's ⁓ only a select few, like with my partner. Sasha Pearl: again. Gwendoline: And I don't live my internal cycles outside in the world until they've been integrated and transmuted in that. So, you know, it can come across as being like a deeply private person. But I am also really open. So it sometimes feels like a contradiction. I just. Maybe it's the Capricorn moon. I just live my emotional experiences internally. Sasha Pearl: Okay, so gate 33 is a gate of privacy. It's literally meant to be held until you're ready for it. Gwendoline: Is that really what it is? Yeah, that's it. And some people are like, why are you not telling me things? And I'm like, Sasha Pearl: Wait, what did you just say you cut out? Gwendoline: ⁓ yeah, that's how I experience it. I'm like, mm. Sasha Pearl: ⁓ no. Wait, what did you just say? Gwendoline: Well done. Sasha Pearl: I think it caught up. Gwendoline: Is it? Okay. Yeah, I that gate of privacy and I have some people being like, wait, what did you just experience and why didn't you tell me that? I'm like, I know. It's just along in own little life right now. Sasha Pearl: that's what makes you such a powerful coach. Not only do you have lived experiences, but you're taking in the stories and experiences of other people integrating them. then you're like, it's like times two potency. Like that is powerful. So love that for you. And then thing, how can they connect with you? How can people connect with you? Reach out to you. Gwendoline: Yeah, so online ArtemisDivorceCoaching.com. Instagram handle is also ArtemisDivorceCoaching. I am on LinkedIn too. And always welcome all of the emails and messages. You know, even if it's just to tell me your story, I have collection of divorce stories around me now and it's really deeply healing. It's mutually healing. So I welcome all the feedback. Sasha Pearl: I love it. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast, Gwendolyn. It was such a lovely conversation and I think we'll probably have you on again. Gwendoline: Thank you. Thank you so much, Sasha. I really appreciate this and talking with you. Thank you. Sasha Pearl: You're so welcome.