Latest / The Speak Life Podcast / What Can We Learn from Mars Hill || Interview with Liam Thatcher || SLP373

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What Can We Learn from Mars Hill || Interview with Liam Thatcher || SLP373 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to the Speak Life Podcast.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Thomas Thoroughgood.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Have you been listening to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill?
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's a podcast from Christianity Today about Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church in Seattle.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: And recently a man called Liam Thatcher wrote an article about the podcast, about its significance, and kind of the challenges in receiving it.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: And the article has generated a lot of discussion, including the one you are about to hear.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you will hear Glenn Scrivener and Nate Morganlock from Speak Life interviewing Liam Thatcher about the podcast, about how it's been received, especially on social media sites such as Twitter, and what we can learn both from Mars Hill and this kind of reporting and journalism.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Just to let you know, these sorts of live discussions will be happening on our YouTube channel Monday evenings going forwards.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: So if you'd like to get the visuals for these discussions as well as the audio, you can head to the Speak Life YouTube channel.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you find the episode interesting, and I will catch you on the other side.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: Fantastic.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome everybody to the live cast.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: My name, as it will appear across the bottom of the screen, is Glenn Scrivener.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: And with me is Nate Morgan Locke.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: Hello, everyone.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_03: Hello.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: Good evening.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: Good evening.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, it's new.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's new.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: We quite often will sort of munch on sandwiches.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_03: The live cast is usually a lunchtime thing.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: With um, yes, with uh we we we we quite like to get the kind of the MPR kind of vibe with the a bagel stuck in your teeth really helping with kind of very breathy.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: Very breathy.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but we've decided to go for the evening feel.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like we should have a pint or something.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: We ought to.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: Well, no one can tell what's what's in these little revival mugs that we have.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um but stay tuned for some more evening broadcasts, I think.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's what we want to go for.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think we do.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think who's who's online during the day, Glenn?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: More people than should be is the answer.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: And we might get into that later on.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's right.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so Nate, do you want to uh kind of introduce yourself?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: We we did release a video last week about who you are, but oh, about me.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna introduce our guests, but I will happily introduce myself and then introduce Liam.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: My name is Nathan James Hamden Morgan Locke, and I am now working with uh Glenn Scrivener at Speak Life.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I'm very excited.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a busy week already.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: This building of ours, these studios of ours are in flux, in turmoil.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's great chaos and tempest flying around us.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: But it's exciting.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: We've got so many exciting things happening over the next few months, and I can't wait to get stuck in, particularly on Friday, when we're gonna shoot our harvest video.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, watch out for that coming into your face at some point in the next couple of months.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: And it's your ears.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: There's there's quite a catchy song being brewed up right now.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: So uh it's an exciting time, it's a point.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: Get ready for harvest.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: Cheer.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but that's not the reason why we brought you all here.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, we want to discuss uh what has become uh a little bit of an internet sensation among Christians, uh, which is the podcast documentary by Mike Cosper and Christianity Today called The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: And uh it's on episode eight, I believe, at the moment.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um disclaimer, disclosure right at the beginning.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't listened to any of it.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: I've heard of Mars Hill, I've heard of Mark Driscoll, I'm aware of his œuvre and his issues, and so I'm just going to be throwing in my ignorant uh rants and um questions.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's very much Nate's gift.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: But that he brings the ignorance where others fear.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: But see, it often in a you'll see in a TV show, you'll have a character who doesn't know what's going on, and the other characters get to explain what's going on to bring the viewer up to speed.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: So that's going to be quite helpful.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: I'll be Basil Exposition, and you'll just be Nate, no, no thought.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_03: I'll be, yeah, sort of random.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: No idea, no idea, Nate.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_05: Nate.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but you you are on the Twitters, and I I'm aware of the Twitters, yeah, yes.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_03: And this is where so much of the life of this podcast has had a second life and a different kind of a life.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, hence our discussion this evening, because um uh Liam Thatcher, our guest for tonight, uh, has noticed that there are unintended consequences, perhaps, of the interest around uh Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll and this podcast, and what kind of life um does this podcast now have now that it's online and it's a topic of conversation and it's it's exciting and people are waiting for it to drop.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so with that in mind.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: With that in mind, do you want to introduce let's introduce uh Liam Thatcher?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: Can we bring him up?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll say sure or shall I say his words before we bring him up?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I don't know.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna say his words describing himself on uh his his Twitter account at Liam Thatcher, writer, preacher, pastor, thinker, joker, guner baker, follower of the way, husband of one wife, father of one child, author of no books.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: And yet he does have a blog which is so hot right now.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: So hot right now.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um that that's why we brought him on.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: So, Liam.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for joining us, Liam.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thanks for having me.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's great.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: I love I love that you put follower of the way in your Twitter bio.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: It it needs to be something that said like follower of the way.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's it needs to be that kind of yeah, yeah.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I was going for.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, in order of importance as well.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: I should point out that comes quite alone.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, beneath Baker and Joker.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's not the question.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just to check, follow of the way, it just means Christian, right?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: Is that sort of the just I just for full disclosure, ignoramus?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: Just want to check.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I wasn't prepared for that level of ignorance tonight.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I will show you depths you have never seen.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: Get ready, people.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: So just get ready for that.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: Get ready, people.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: We just had Rich Pitt tuning in.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: He says, Love the new guy.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: Who's the new guy?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, well, Rich Pitt, we had a lower third and we prepared it earlier.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: You should you should have read, but I'm gonna be throwing in my ignorance.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome, brother.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know Rich?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: I don't, but I like him already.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, big fan of Rich.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: Rich Pitt Rich Pitt Legend, one of my favorite people.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: One of my favorite pits hasn't let me down once.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: Brings positive.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: We we are we are getting away from the actual topic and what we want to talk about, yeah.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, which is of course um a this blog post that you wrote, uh Liam, about the unintended consequences of failure porn.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: Oh now, just before I let you um talk us through your uh sort of um idea behind that, I can I just make a little uh comment about this use of the word porn after things like as as a suffix.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like yeah, the the pawn suffix, like gate, you know, like if after water gate, everything was a gate, right?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: So obviously the word porn is a abbreviation of pornography, which comes from two Greek words pornea and graphos.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: So it's sexual immorality and writing or depiction of such thing.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: So photography is light, writing with light, right, and depiction of light, right?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: And pornography is the depiction of sexual immorality, right?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: So when it comes to using either one of the two base words for that, yes, the porn really isn't the one to use, that's really the content, it's the geography, that's really what you're going for.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: Failography.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I think failography is but it's but which should be the name of our studio here, just failography, yeah.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but does it get the hits?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: Because to be to be perfectly honest, failure porn would be pornography that failed in some way, or that involved failures, catastrophic porn, like food porn would be would be sexual intercourse on screen using food.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's sort of so that's just to put that out there, and we've started so well, yeah.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, Ben is written.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: I think what Nate was trying to say is I'm just gonna read.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna read now.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, a bit of Liam's own a little bit of Liam's own words, okay, and then ask him um just uh just what's going on.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: So um here it is.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um you quote from uh a man called John Tyson, who I'm afraid I don't know, and he says, Um, and this I think sort of sums up the the basic observation you're making.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: You've sort of unpacked unpacked what what he's saying.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: He says, There is a fine line between cautionary tales and failure porn, and it's mainly in your own heart.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: We must be humble, not gloat in the fall of others, and realize what each of us is also capable of.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: And then you write failure porn, ouch.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um do you think this podcast, Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, do you think it is failure porn?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that that would be an accurate description of it?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, good question.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um no, uh quite simply I don't.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: And um there you go, back on the screen.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um because this is what people are tuned in for, isn't it?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um no, I don't, and and actually one of the weird upshots of writing this is that I've used the word porn in the last four days more than probably the money.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not at all.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what I really liked about the quote, and actually I I had written a piece previously, which uh very few people read, um, reflecting on how we as listeners um sort of respond to the podcast.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so then when I saw John's tweet, uh that kind of summed up for me in a slightly more uh eloquent uh or catchy way, at least, what I had been trying to say already, which is um that actually the line between cautionary tale and porn is in the heart of the listener primarily.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's about how we respond to something.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so no, I don't think that the podcast itself is porn.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like many people I've really benefited from that podcast.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: I've learned so much from it.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think that the team behind it uh have approached it really wisely, really sensitively, have done a great job of it.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I do wonder whether we can respond to it in a way which is not their intention, but it which actually turns something neutral to good into something unhealthy.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that's why I find the tweet quite helpful.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, on reflection, what I wish I had done is just kept that in the body of the uh article because I think the context makes that quite clear.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, putting in the title, I kind of regret that because I think some people came into the article thinking that I was saying uh that it is failure porn, that I am negative about investigative journalism or things like that, which is simply not the case.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: So um I have learned a lesson already um just about how to be clear about your messaging.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um no, I don't need one.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_03: But there might I mean there must have been a part of you that thinks, okay, that is catchy.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: That the that you know, that there's something about failure porn as a content.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, in your own article, you say, ouch, it packs a punch.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so there is there is the desire, and you know, how how do we title this video so that more people click on it?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: How do we, you know, um there there is an ecosystem that rewards um the punchy, I guess.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_03: And that's and that's that's one of the things I guess you're you're asking us to to take note of, I guess.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I I recognize the irony there, and um uh and I think what what I had intended to do and why I like the phrase is because the punchiness, um I guess you could see it as titillating, uh sort of entertaining or um design, uh sort of designed to get people to read the piece.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I had thought of it more as being a shocking revelation of the severity of what's going on in hearts of people who respond to it in a negative way, what's potentially going on in my heart when I listen to it in a bad way.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I had intended it more to be um, yeah, like that kind of sort of visceral language that wakes us up to the reality of what's going on rather than being exciting and getting able to uh read it.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but I think that without the context of the rest of the article, I think that the title went into that.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm I'm aware of that, uh, I'm retrospectively aware of that sort of irony, and and feel like I'm learning a lesson about it.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think, oh yeah, I could do one of two things with this now.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: I could go, well, that got a lot of hits, I'm gonna put porn in the title of everything.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Or I could go the other way and say, actually, I maybe inadvertently, unintentionally, um at least some people will feel that I did the very thing I was critiquing, and perhaps that's right.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a cause for me to check my heart, which is really the whole article.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: We should be able to check our hearts.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think is the right way to listen to the rise and fall of Mark Drissel?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think the quote that you you you take from Luke chapter eight, be careful how you listen, is just very, you know, I've I've been chewing on it since since you sort of put that quote together with this podcast.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's it's exactly right.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: So how should we how should we listen to this kind of investigative journalism about church abuse?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: What's what's what what are the right ears to have?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, great question.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, first of all, I I think I would say there is there's incredible value in uh a podcast like this, um, and in journalism that brings into the light things that have been in the darkness.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think there is amazing value in that.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think maybe what some people have missed uh is that they have thought I'm saying this shouldn't be done.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm not saying that at all.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's real value in things being brought into the light.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think the first thing we should do is is grieve when we hear these stories.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we should, well, I don't know whether we should be shocked about them, but we should become aware of them and we should be grieved by what we hear uh that is going on in the body of Christ.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think it should, it should make us sad, it should make us uh yeah, grieve and lament.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the first thing to do.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think there are probably a couple of maybe it's easy to talk about the bad ways of responding.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't think that there are many people who are listening to this podcast and who are genuinely taking a sense of glee out of it uh because they enjoy the story of this, um, what was going on at Mars Hill.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you do feel that, that's that's probably quite perverse, and you probably know there's something wrong there because the stories are so harrowing, it's not it's not it's not a pleasant listen.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I don't think the people who are doing that, I guess what may be more common, and I guess I see this trait in some people that I've talked to and in my own heart as well, is a sense of um I don't get a kick out of the glee, I get a kick out of the feeling of superiority it gives me.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I wouldn't have done that, or I was never a fan of Driscoll anyway, or I could have told you that was coming, or you know, whatever it is.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: I I feel like um one of the dangers is it creates this sense in us that we are better, we are more prescient, we are more uh immune to these issues than we think.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've been reflecting both on that bit from Luke 8, which is that when things are being brought out from the darkness into the light, when things that are done in secret are being revealed, be careful how you listen.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then also 1 Corinthians 10, where Paul talks about these um stories in the Old Testament that were written down to us for us as examples so that we don't make the same mistakes.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: I've just got to the end of reading, well, first and second Kings and then first and second chronicles, which is not, I'll be honest, my favorite section of scripture.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's hard going.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't feel glee at all when I look at the the downfall of these kings and the awful things they do.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't feel that, but what I do often feel um is a sense that, well, I wouldn't have done that.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, if I'd been in that position, I would have acted so much better.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: But Paul says, no, no, no, these things are written down as examples, so you won't do the same thing.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the reason is that God knows that our hearts are deceived above all things, we could end up doing the same thing.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so in 1 Corinthians 10, Paul says, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: That to me is a really important warning.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I think when we listen to these things, we should be grieved, we should lament, we should seek to understand more, um, we should recognize our own need for self-reflection, but we need to not stop there.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a comparatively easy bit to do, to recognize our need for self-reflection and to raise the rhetorical questions and to say, hey, we all need to reflect on how we're complicit in this.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's important.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: That then needs to move to self-reflection and recognizing the need for self-reflection is not the same as actually reflecting, and even reflecting is not the same as acting upon that reflection as well.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the way to listen is to listen patiently patiently, humbly, um, with an attitude to learn, and then a desire to actually work it all the way through into our lives, into our communities, into the structure of our podcast.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: And should you listen to this podcast whilst you are on Twitter?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's the question.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because what is the extra element do you think?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because you were you were saying to me, you spoke to someone who listened to the podcast but wasn't aware of the Twitter kerfuffle.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm aware of the the Twitter issue, but haven't listened to the podcast.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: Now, if you're doing both, are you then more likely to do what what Liam is is saying he's seen many people do, which is you know, this Schadenfreuder.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: There's another word, German, made of two words, suffering and joy.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you're welcome.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: And that is that what's being let out because you're part of the conversation, right?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like you need to be friends with someone and go for a drink with them to talk about the podcast.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: They're right there as soon as you flick open another app, and you can see what everyone thinks rather than just sort of having your own reflections on the podcast itself.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_03: Nate, Nate, people people should be aware.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: Nate has quite a negative view of the Twitters.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: He he thinks of it as a plague.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: I I think of it is it's a mashup between Mad Max Fury Road and Clockwork Orange.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: Those two post-apocalyptic hellscape.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's just I just it's it it it is it's based on it runs on outrage.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: So so for today, for example, one of the things that's that was that was trending was that some people want to ban the book The Tiger Who Came to Tea.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, right.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: They want to ban the book The Tiger Who Came to Tea because it's got outdated sexual stereotypes.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: How did that make you feel, Nates, when you heard that?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: But of course, it that it's about this out how dare they, and I'm part of this thing.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll we'll forget about it in two days' time, and we'll move on to something else.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's expulsive power of a new outrage.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's the that's the sermon he should have preached.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's the Twitter sermon.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's like there are what's that?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there are three things that never say enough, right?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: Four that cry out for more, right?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah and and Twitter, you can infinity scroll into the darkness endlessly.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's right there for you, and it's addictive.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's my issue.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: Or you can discover an incredible podcast like The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, and it can open your eyes to things and you can grieve and lament and seek to do better.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_03: Liam, what what what part does Twitter have to play in all this?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I mean I um I am not as negative as Nate, um, although I need to share some in this area.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Who knows about the rest of the people?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean I think there's a lot of good about social media and about um podcasting and all these sorts of things.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the good things is the way it's a it has the potential to be a sort of great equalizer and it gives people who wouldn't have a voice or whose voices would be silenced in other areas, it gives them an opportunity to speak out and to share their story and to bring things into the light that would have been hidden by um other structures and systems.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: And if part of the problem that this podcast is highlighting is that a lot of systems and structures are toxic and unhelpful and geared towards protecting the celebrity pastor over the hurting sheep, um then I think actually social media has an ability uh to bring important conversations into the public consciousness and to facilitate conversation about those in a really helpful way that can lead to healing and justice and repentance and all those sorts of things.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: I guess the the challenge though is how much of that can be done in social media.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: I do think it does um it does lean more into outrage, and so for raising awareness that can be helpful.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: But as I said earlier, raising awareness needs to lead to actual reflection and needs to actual action.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder how much of that uh can take place in in the social media space.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think awareness certainly can.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think that the system is not geared towards reflection in a long form, patient way that's a revolved over time because it's on to the next thing.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I guess I would question how helpful social social media being the primary space that these things get outworked really has a role to play.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure that we I I don't I don't have the answers about what role it has to play.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Particularly when you think about um I guess church uh church discipline situations or bringing accusations against uh unhealthy church leaders or those sorts of things.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think very often some of the things these things can't be worked out in the church because if the church is the problem space and if you have a problem with a leader and something to do with the structure of your church, that may not be a safe place for someone to raise those issues and to get the help and healing they need.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I understand why people need to go elsewhere.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: I just think we need some real thoughtful engagement with what role social media has to play, when it comes in the process, how we handle it rightly.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have the answers on that.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um I do feel like there is an important role for it.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think what I think what you were saying about it it gives a voice to those who need to speak out about a toxic culture.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: My my issue is that how do you speak out about a toxic culture on an intoxicating social media platform?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: So so there's something about the use of social media, about the way that the the app works if you're using Twitter, there's something about that that does reward a certain kind of stimulus or a certain kind of of of uh of content.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: And again, I mean, maybe to again push back, I'm in that kind of mood.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: We should definitely do these in the daytime because evenings I'm just gonna let rip.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, how's your blood sugar now?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: Is it you need a master?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Is it yes, is it the case that social media is a great way to democratize and to give a voice for those who don't have a voice, or is social media utterly dominated by some very, very shrill and angry voices which then dominate follow.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like I want to go into your Twitter app and I want to I'll unfollow all these people who are outraging you.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: The only way there are communities that you can learn from that are sharing scripture, sharing Jesus, sharing life right in really like nourishing ways.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I I have learnt loads on Twitter, yeah, like theologically, yeah, pastorally, psychologically.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: There's all sorts of stuff I've learned on you're doing it wrong, man.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_03: I'm probably I'm sure I am.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the only I'm only following you.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's your big mistake.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not even on it that much.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just my I'm I suppose my my concern is that that you're playing into, you know, we talk about systemic situations in society.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: You're literally playing into a system, you're literally playing into an algorithm which is workable.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: And for those voices who have got a real issue but can't be heard because their platform isn't big enough, what do they do?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: They they do they need to generate more of an audience?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: Look, I mean it's a marketplace.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna be our social media manager, by the way.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: Don't worry about that.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's a it's a marketplace, right?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: And you go to acts and you, you know, you you see people in Ephesus and they're having a riot, and like one person's shouting one thing, another person shouting another thing, and like people don't even know why they're there, but they join in, right?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: This is as old as Adam, right?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's totally and what does Paul do?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: Does he say burn marketplaces to the ground?
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like, forget the Areopagus, like I boycott the Ari.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: Is that what he does?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: No, he does no, he does not.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no, he he's there and he's a voice preaching the gospel in that marketplace, knowing what marketplaces can be like, you know.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: So how then do we engage that?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: How do we how do we do that?
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: And this is where Liam's gonna come and tell us all the answers.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, how do we do that without getting what's the phrase?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: You wrestle a don't wrestle a pig in mud.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, you'll get you'll lose and he'll like it.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, help us, help us with social media, Liam.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, uh well, in some in some sense, I don't really have the answers, I just have the questions because um I guess what I wanted to really provoke was this a sense of reflection.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that social media, as it is often used, does lend itself to long-form reflection.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um often people just sort of trade in sound bites uh or gifts or gifs or however you want to pronounce it these days, memes, and and sort of uh I guess what what we really need is thoughtful engagement over time, uh, where we can get things wrong and then apologize for them and correct them, and um and it can be done in community.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think that is really hard to do online.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it can't be done online.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I just don't think that the format makes it very easy for us to do online.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so all I kind of wanted to do, well maybe not all I wanted to do, but one of the things I wanted to do in the in the article was just say, hey, are we actually thinking about this?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um one of the main themes in the podcast was unintended consequences and things that actually start maybe for good reasons, uh do a lot of good, um, but they have unintended consequences which are negative.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of that is to do with how we respond to the good things that are uh shared our way uh or that we're presented with.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a lot of good about social media, but I do think that if we respond to it in an unhealthy way, there could be all sorts of unintended consequences.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I was just sort of saying, like, let's think about this.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: There is a certain irony about the fact that we are consuming a podcast that is critiquing celebrity culture, and we are doing it with some of the glee that you find around celebrity culture.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there is an irony that one of the episodes was talking about branding and marketing, and we are here having a conversation here which has been promoted on Twitter, and there's an irony about that.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Some of it's unavoidable unavoidable, um, but I just want to say let's think about it, let's talk about it, let's really analyze it because it's really easy to critique it in other people and not critique it in ourselves.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I don't profess to know what's going on in the hearts of people when they are um when they are saying about how much they love the podcast, or I can't wait for the next episode, or I don't really know what's going on in their hearts.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think it would be wrong for me to be able to feel like I can judge from afar, but I should be able to stop and go, Well, hang on, what's this to me?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and be self-reflective about that.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas it's so easy just to get kind of caught up in that, oh, that was a funny meme.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just retweet that rather than say, Hang on, am I am I comfortable with that?
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: Have I thought that through?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, this one.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so yeah, I I I revisited the book, uh, John Ronson's book.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: Have you read um uh So You've Been Publicly Shamed?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um fascinating, fascinating book.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: And it was it's from a couple of years ago now, but he goes through a number of cases of mainly Twitter shame storms where people get the it's the Twitch fork mob.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_03: And when and and this is actual cancelling.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: This is this isn't this is not like so so Justine Sacco was a woman who tweeted a very foolish joke about AIDS.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, she flew to and she flew to South Africa.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_03: From Heathrow to I think she yeah, I think from I think it was a stopover in Heathrow.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_03: She tweeted something, got on the flight.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_03: By the time she landed in Johannesburg, she was like sacked, um, couldn't get a job again in the industry.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, from one tweet.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: And and um, and what was interesting is is one line that um John Ronson says he he says, Um, no snowflake is responsible for the avalanche.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: And and there's this there's this sense when you pile on in a Twitter mob, yeah, like it's not me, I didn't get her cancelled.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but you you kind of did.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, um, we didn't start the fire, no, but you did.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh Wendy Lomont uh has made a great point on TopChat.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um the article had a lot of thought-provoking points.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: Liam mentioned mentions seeking uh seeing a lack of humility in some of the public responses, which was exactly one of Driscoll's biggest flaws.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: There's there's an irony there, uh, wouldn't you say, Liam?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I and yeah, there's there's so many ironies in this, but but I I think part of part of that irony is that um, okay, well, it was it was Mark Driscoll who had the microphone all to himself for many years.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's right, we can share.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: Although, in order to speak, yeah, yeah, I'll put each other out of the way.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, very much Mark Driscoll had the microphone, um, in a in a way in which and and he was getting big on podcasts kind of before Twitter was a big deal, yeah, and and before the microphone was democratized.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_03: And in a in a sense, um, I think this is responsible journalism, certainly on Mike Cosper's part, of saying, um, well, let's let's have the top podcast in religion, not being Mark Driscoll.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: Let's have the top, you know, and wouldn't I think that would be a bad thing.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: I and I don't think I don't think that's a bad ambition that this should take the top spot with all that that entails about how you market it and promote it, but I don't think it's a bad ambition that that that should take the top spot instead of that one man hogging the microphone.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: So so here's here's another question.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: You you mentioned in the article um is this religious journalism?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, let me just put that.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's up near the top.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, that's not normal for religious journalism.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's normal for reality TV, it's normal for celebrity gossip, it's normal for um addictions.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: And the what and and you're referring there, of course, to the fact that there is this beautiful phrase, drooling anticipation that is filling your Twitter timeline ahead of each episode.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: So that's again the reaction to the podcast.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's the Twitter.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: Is not the serialization, right?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: The fact that this story is being effectively dragged out.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, maybe they just they just were like, we've got to hear a deadline, we haven't finished.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well, let's make it a series.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: We'll start.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure we'll catch up.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: There's no way Christianity today that um uh are making these hand to mouth, but well, maybe they are, but but the issue is that not in itself a way to encourage this kind of avalanche, encourage this kind of um drooling anticipation because you're drip feeding, you're saying to the people, here's a little more, here's a little more, here's a little more, and it becomes salacious in a way that it wouldn't have been if it was if it was simply a sort of absolute dump of the whole thing, and people could binge the episodes in in a weekend or something like that.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: Well, so why why the serialization and what what part has that had to play in its uh in its reception, do you think, Leon?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm obviously not uh answering for the editorial choices of Christianity today, but um, I mean, another way of just flipping that it would be to say, um, like you said, Glenn, um, that Mark Driscoll was such a public figure with such a public voice that a response needs to be a public response.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it needs to be one that uh if it's to really affect people and get to the people that need to hear it, then it needs to be accessible, it needs to be digestible.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so putting it out in this sort of format, choosing someone responded to me quite helpfully actually, and said it basically reminds them of a true crime serial thing.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that is the genre that it reminds me of, not that I listen to a lot of true crime, but it's that kind of feeling.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I suspect that there were conversations about how is the best way to get this message to the people that need to hear it in a way that's digestible, and I think serializing is a good way to do that.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: I also do think, I mean, you said that they probably haven't put it together sort of hand to mouth, and I doubt that they have really, but there is a sense of them working this out as they go, and I appreciate that.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in the most recent episode, which I only listened to yesterday, uh, with Joshua Harris, they there are moments where they reflect on the fact that when we started this, we did an interview here, and then Joshua said this on Twitter, and then he recanted, and so we've changed the direction a bit.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so I like the fact that this is agile and it's working through.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's complicated, but I do think that actually that's helpful because it invites the conversation about it.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: I I wonder if there's some, I guess what I was trying to get out in the opening of my article was this kind of idea of the drooling anticipation.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's almost something in the uh the sort of release and response process that weirdly does mirror some of the things that they're critiquing.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how avoidable that is.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I do think that I trust that Mike and the team are doing their part to think through their side of it responsibly.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just saying, let's do the same on our part, the way we receive it, the way we respond to it.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um I suppose one question is so you mentioned investigative journalism, which clearly has a great pedigree.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think arguably the journalist as hero is a is a properly Christian idea.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: So if you if you've seen a film Spotlight, which is about the the Boston Globe's investigation into uh the Catholic Church, um, it it's amazing to see the courage uh that it would have taken for them to put reputations on the line and to go and do the hard work of finding all of those things out.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: Now, clearly, Mike Cosper and the team who've put the podcast together have had to do an incredible amount of investigation.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: They've had to research this, they've had to interview people, they've had to gather that together, and of course, they've had to then think about how do you best communicate that through the medium of podcasting?
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: The question is if that then is turning into breaking news, oh Joshua Harris has just tweeted this, and so now we've got to update this, and here here comes out.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: Does that not slightly sensationalize something which okay, there's a lot of of trauma and hurt and and that that's happened several years ago with Mars Hill, but in in a sense, yes, it needs to be reported, yes, it needs to be shown up for what it was, but by uh sort of chaining it to this breaking news, and now we've had to change this.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: That for me just feels as though you're trying to do both this investigative work, which demands a very, very high level of editorial control and a certain courage to kind of go and speak truth to power, but then also this um oh, what's gonna happen next week?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, oh let's see what Joshua Harris is gonna tweak now.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: Or do you know what I mean?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, if that makes sense.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: I well, I I think the serialization is I think it probably is deliberately aping serial, the podcast, the true crime podcast with Sarah Koenig and and NPR.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_03: And it it it definitely it's it's unit's uncovering a crime scene, yeah, forensically, and taking us through the story.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_03: And and I I think that choice is a is a good choice, and I I I think the genre fits it.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I think if we're gonna think about spotlights, it sh it you know it shines the brightest light on some dark places.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: And and as you say, the if if Mark Driscoll had these years in the rise of Mars Hill, right, in which he was you know top of the podcasting tree within the sort of religious department of podcasts or whatever, yeah, that he he ought to be publicly at the same level shown for what he was and what he what he became and the ways that he he acted and and all those things.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: In in the same way that I think when Paul is um imprisoned um and refuses to just leave quietly when they find out he's a Roman citizen, he says, No, you have to come and get me out.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: You've got to come just as you've publicly done this, this needs to be shared.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the retraction in the newspaper.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, there's a person I have a personal history with this.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: I was doing a bit of um community theater when I was a teenager, and it was about the dangers of car theft and car crime.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so I was just a uh an actor, a teenage actor, who was involved in this production about and I played a kid who stole cars in the theater production.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't we didn't have to guess.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: Now the local newspaper they reported it, giving the impression that I was actually a reformed carjacker.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, okay.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I remember I was saw I was just pleased I was in the paper.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, any publicity, but uh that my dad sort of said, no, we we want to make sure there's a retraction published.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: Because actually that's not true.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: And if it's not true, the truth needs to come out.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: If it's unjust, justice needs to come out.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_03: There's there's a sense of of and there's always an injustice when the slander is on page one and the retraction is on page 33 in six-point font.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, and and and so this is this is a you know a chance of saying um, you know, here is um here is shining a light at exactly that same level, I think.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, if I can come back against that, just sort of three thoughts from me is um one, uh there's something about this podcast that because most of it is retrospective, it's looking at stuff that has happened, uh, sure it's had and it continues to have ongoing um uh implications, particularly since Mark is still in church leadership in a different situation, and I who knows what's going on there.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the Josh Harris thing is slightly different, I think, and that was a bonus episode.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: It does feel a little different to the others.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I do wonder how differently they would do it if if Martial still existed, for example.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I would love to know that uh and why they made this editorial choice.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure part of it is because it's retrospective.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think what I really value about it and why I like the agile feel is that it isn't just saying, here's the message, here's asked in on it, but it's actually inviting you into something of the process.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I I really appreciated in the last episode, particularly about Joshua Harris, where uh Mike sort of shared some of his own process about things and uh reflected a bit on his own journey.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then I forget who it was, but one of the other contributors just talked about a heartache of wading through these stories and hearing these stories of pain and what that was doing to his own reflections on faith and and the temptation towards deconstruction of those sorts of things.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like that's quite helpful because it's showing us they're working, so it's giving us the tools that we might then need if we are to engage in these sorts of ways as well.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: One of my fears would be uh if people hear this podcast um and think, great, I'm gonna go and do this, this legitimates my desire to create a podcast unveiling uh all sorts of different things, but they don't approach it with the same level of editorial policy or or sort of thought-out virtues or accountability structures or something that I presume the Christianity today team have.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: So something showing the workings of the process I think is really valuable.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess uh I I find your your comment about Paul in prison just really fascinating.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, you're right.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: He did he did say, no, no, no, you've got to come take responsibility for this injustice, but he didn't do that every time he was in prison, and he didn't go back and say to Peter, hey, next time you're in prison, you've got to do the same thing.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: You've got other prison break stories that seem to be different.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know why that is.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder how much of that was premeditated or how much just in the moment Paul knew what the right thing was to do because he was in step with the spirit.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a there's a sort of messy adaptability that is required uh in learning how to do these things that's not easy and it's not straightforward, and it requires just a constant prayerful reflection of our own heart, listening to God, um, being in a community where people can say, I think you got that slightly wrong, and you're able to say, Yeah, I regret doing that.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'll see what I can do to amend that and I won't do it again.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like those guardrails are really important as we work out some of these strange and messy new ways of dealing with things online.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I agree.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_03: I agree.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, we've got a question from Tim Jones.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: Hello, Tim Jones.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: Uh hey, Liam, he says, a few of your points address worries about how these online spats might impact upon church going, as well as cynicism towards institutions and independence.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_03: Isn't this alarmist?
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_03: What do you reckon?
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: Good question.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, so uh in the article I talked about the fact that I spoke to a friend of mine um a couple of weeks ago.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it doesn't come to my church.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know a great deal about his church, um, but he said that he hadn't been back to church since the pandemic, uh, restrictions have been lifted, and I asked why, and he said, Well, you know, not just this podcast, but other similar stories that have broken recently, um, have just shaken his faith, and I guess his not his faith in a sort of uh spiritual sense, but his faith in church.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I said to him, Oh, do you have any concerns about your particular church?
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Um, no, but you just never know, do you?
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: And sort of it's that assumption of um there's got to be something wrong.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: I can't see it, but it's got to be something wrong, uh, that I think is problematic and tricky.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, I don't want to say the opposite should be true that we should uh put our leaders on a pedestal and assume that they're totally right and godly and infallible.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's the problem that this highlight this podcast is highlighting.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to go back to that or anywhere near that, but I also don't want to go to the other extreme, which is let's assume that everything is somehow tainted.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, it could be alarmist, but um I in raising these hyper in raising these unintended consequences, these are not things I think will happen.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: They're things I think it will be a tragedy if they did happen.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I sincerely hope they won't happen.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: And the way that they won't happen is if we respond well to these things.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope that it won't be the case that this creates a lot of cynicism.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: If we receive what is intended as a good message in the wrong way, I think it could lead to that.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um I mean, I've I've been thinking, I mean, especially since the Ravi um revelations broke about Matthew 23 quite a lot, in because you've got these two things that are happening in the chapter.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_03: He starts, Jesus starts off by saying, um, the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_03: So you should you should do what they say, but don't do what they do because they don't practice what they preach.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_03: And then he lays into them as the whitewashed tombs and full of dead men's bones, and they are hypocrites.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: And so at one and the same time, he exalts there is an office of teacher, there is such a thing as authority, and it is to be obeyed when it is in line with God's word.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_03: At the same time, um, those positions of leadership can be brilliant whitewash for hellish diabolical sins underneath.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_03: And Jesus kind of says both.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_03: And and and he leaves us with a picture of leadership and even biblical leadership, because the Pharisees can, you know, claim to be Bible people to some degree.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and he leaves us with a picture of saying, um you can you should watch out.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_03: And and if it looks like what whitewash, maybe it is whitewash.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um and and I think, and he leaves it out, and it leaves me with a question, you know, um, if it does, if shining a light on certain sins does make people run from the church, to what degree do we say, well, the truth is the truth, let the chips fall where they may, and God's big enough to sort it out.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_03: Is that I don't know what other people think about that.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I suppose I suppose the challenge that that we've got within this, you mentioned um one of your nine sort of unintended consequences in in the blog post is um the creation of a new genre of church expose podcasting.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: Now, in a sense, CT are actually slightly late to the game on this.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: In the democratization of the space of journalism, there have been huge numbers of people who have committed themselves over the last three, four, five years to making podcasts trying to expose abuse or or or address issues within their church.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think rightly what you you question, Liam, in this in that section is where you say that a fresh wave of unaccountable podcasters.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: And the question then is if online spiritual leadership is becoming a thing, who who is appointing these leaders?
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: How are they how are they becoming um how are they getting their their credentials other than just simply they've got the the skills to pay the bills when it comes to playing the algorithmic game?
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, big question.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and so just to be clear, um I know that you're not saying this, but I think some people have thought that I'm saying this.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um what I'm not arguing is let's not shine the light on these things because that might create cynicism.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: It would be better if we didn't know about these things.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's absolutely not the case.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think these things must be brought into the light.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I I I I think there should be journalism.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think there should be great journalism that brings these things into the light.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: Praise God for the ways that these scandals have not been allowed to uh remain under the surface, but they have been brought to the surface, and that has to continue.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: My ideal is obviously that church leaders um stop doing the stuff that warrants broadcasting up.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: Not that we say let's not talk about it.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's like most of them, so there's nothing to talk about, only good things to talk about.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: So that's absolutely um my sort of first priority.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, like you said, it's it's the unaccountable and unquestionable um uh nature of social media that people can put themselves forward as an expert on something um without necessarily the credentials.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, I'm not gonna have a PhD to have an opinion, but one of the things that I am concerned about, and just as a footnote, I'm aware of the irony of this, um, uh, is that the idea of the new experts.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like you could say that that's exactly what we're doing here.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: I am not an expert on this, and um my blog got way more readers than I possibly ever expected.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: Could make people think, oh, are you putting yourself out as a new expert?
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: I well, maybe, but I hope really hope not.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my concern is that it's very easy for people to say, hey, I've got this view on this, I read one book and a handful of tweets, and now I I have this well-crafted hot take that gives the impression I'm an expert, I've got all the answers.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: My concern there is that the new experts, self-appointed experts, uh maybe more skillful at marketing themselves and actually drown out the people, the voices of the people who genuinely are able to lead us to freedom than to help people.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: And one of my big concerns would be if people who need advocacy and need help and need care and need healing and need people to fight for justice and to help them process stuff can't find the people who are genuinely able to do that because there's this sea of other people who are maybe good at identifying the problem but not helping us get to the solution.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's it strikes me that often the people who are great at helping us to see what the problem is are not the same people who are able to help us get to the solution, which is why doctors refer people to specialists.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so I want to say um we need journalists and we also need the experts who are going to take us on, who are gonna help us to know what do we do differently?
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: How do we take this information, this reflection that we're now going through, and how do we put it into active change so we don't just sort of plateau at the level of, oh, that was a nice hot take, that was interesting and could be talking questions.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: How do we move through to something that's way more healthy?
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I mean, the democratization of voices does mean that those who have been silenced and abused in the past um do have an avenue um to being heard.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the the first time I came across Lori Ann Thompson was um there was a campaign to get her released from her NDA.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_03: And this was a social media campaign, and um and you know, and she has um on social media um put her side of things.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_03: And then, you know, we spoke to um Steve Boffman, you know, the friendly banjo atheist, who is a guy who broke the story um about Ravi when nobody else wanted to know.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and he started to become a champion for all sorts of people who were abused, and social media played a massive part in that.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_03: People discovered him, and people discovered one another, and they discovered that oh, you had that experience at Ravi too.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, um, they discovered one another through social media, it became uh a point of coalescence um for these different causes.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_03: It became a point of journalism shining the light, it became a point of of uh people being able to tell their stories and voices.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_03: And Steve Boffman said, Look, you know, Ravi Zacharias would be well on his way to sainthood by now.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_03: When you know he died in 2020.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_03: Vice president of the United States of America saying he's the greatest apologist in the 20th century.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_03: And um, and it was that moment when people started to say this is outrageous, and they started to find each other online and they started to find a voice online.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: And and there are so many people who uh you know have been heard now because of you know this online cesspool, but it's not just a cesspool, date, you know?
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so here's the question net gain, social media, is it a net gain?
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_03: There is gain, like to there is gain.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um how how you know what metrics you use to to figure out uh whether it outweighs the bad.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_03: So there is there is gain, and let's not be blind to it, and B, I think the toothpaste is out of the tube, you know.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I don't think you can uninvent the internet, you might just hope that it could go through some other phases.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_03: See, that's why I think like you think it is the hellscape of Fury Roads.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_03: I I think even looking at it at its worst, it's like the Wild West, you know.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_03: And the Wild West was tamed.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_03: It it went through a stage.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_02: You've obviously not been to San Francisco recently.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I I I suppose I I take that point.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_02: I I think it it is it is a wonderful thing when genuine healing and balm can be found um for those who have who've experienced the most outrageous trauma, who have been absolutely um victims, manipulated and and crushed by someone in a church.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I think you're you know, obviously my my heart breaks for the people who who feel that they can't go and speak to their church leader because their church leader's the problem.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_02: And that their church leader has has closed every single opportunity for them to find to find justice and to find to find hope and to find Christ in a way in basic sense to find Christ.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_02: So so I I'm absolutely convinced of that.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think what's fascinating with with social media is that it's an incredibly small group of people who are active on it.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_02: A slightly larger group of people who are really on it at all, but then it seems to have these, you know, IRL real-world consequences outside of the sort of game, which which as Liam points out, can lead people now to assume well, there's this new thing called um spiritual abuse that I've been reading about, and it's everywhere, and so it must be happening in my church, and so even though I can't see any evidence of at all, I'm going to live suspicious of everyone and potentially even remove myself from fellowship because of that.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, so yes, that's that's a story you could tell.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'd I'd want to see the data, you know.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_03: I like yeah, I mean, it it also might open up a much needed conversation about power and its dynamics and how it is wielded, especially in evangelicalism.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_03: And someone like Diane Langberg suddenly, okay, you know what?
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_03: I found actually that's not true.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_03: I did not discover her online.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_03: I I I was at a conference with her a few years ago, but but I I I started to get into her stuff a lot more online, yeah, you know, and she has she has taught about power and its abuses, and in a sense, that is everywhere.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_03: It that doesn't mean my pastor is a Mark Driscoll, but it it does mean that first I have power and I can abuse that.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody has it, and and if it's if it starts a process of healthy reflection, that's that's no bad thing, right?
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't think it is.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_02: I I suppose one thought that's just going through my mind, it's just bumping around, is you know, when Paul uh is writing to Timothy, um, and he's giving instructions about widows and lists of widows, and various women qualified to go on the list and other people won't.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_02: And the the issue is that they're there's a group of young widows who ought not to be put on a list because they may become idle and go from house to house becoming gossips and busybodies.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_02: Now, is there a I'm asking a correlation between the sort of unoccupied, hmm, what am I gonna do?
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I'm sort of interested to know what's going on.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm you know, obviously not using the words, you know, failure porn or or whatever, but they're they're they're looking for something that might, you know, right that might occupy them.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so they end up then saying things that they ought not to be saying.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: That our entire culture has become the the thumb-twiddling kind of person who and seeks and in a sense, is that is that much like David when he doesn't go to war in the spring, as the kings are supposed to, that's the point.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_02: The devil will find work for idle hands to do.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um is there something about our churches?
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know we're we are will often lament the the sort of obsessive activism of uh of a certain kind of evangelicalism, which is just constantly telling us people to do more and do more and do more.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_02: But weirdly, we all find this time to go on and check.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's so convenient, it's so addictive, and there we find ourselves often, though not always, is I and I totally take your point, often reading what we ought not to be reading, writing what we ought not to be writing, or having a long-form conversation with Liam Thatcher and gaining gaining from his wisdom, you know.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, push push push back on Nate for us.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_03: Come on.
• 58:10
  unknown: What do you want to say?
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: I just have the same questions, but we can give it a um, I mean, I I just think, and I know again, this is not what you're saying, but I don't think it's as simplistic as saying is social media good or bad.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um the line, I mean, we can ditch the failure for line, but the principle remains the same.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: The line between it being good and bad can run through the human heart, right?
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: And respond to this thing in a way that's healthy or unhealthy.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, I don't think it's the case that uh in a sort of really reductive way, you just say, um, if you just do X, Y, and Z, you'll be fine for life.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've got to approach every tweet I send, every blog article I write, and I've got to be asking questions um about my intentions.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_01: Are my intentions good?
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_01: Is the way I'm phrasing that good?
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this this article, I I it's not perfect, and there are things that I would change um about it, but I it took me about 10 days to write that thing.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like I wrote it, I beat it, I put it back out of the trash, and I ditched bits, and I like I really wanted to not hurt particular people or just not be misunderstood.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: And some of that was good motives, like not wanting to care for people, some of it was probably bad motives, like I wanted to please everyone.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to wrestle with that stuff, and the challenge of course is that that can become all-consuming, and you can really like agonize over that.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: And like, I mean, I I fall into that trap.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I overthink things I um that I do and that I say and that I write, um, but I do think that there needs to be this constant reflective um spirit that we cultivate.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: I do think that social media doesn't naturally lend itself to creating that reflective spirit.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um I do think that the best way to use these tricky situations and these tricky um mediums is in a reflective way, where we say, Holy Spirit, help me today.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: I've put in some good boundaries about the amount of time I give to this, the times of day that I think about this, the um the people I follow, the people I don't follow, the conversations I engage in, the conversations I don't engage in.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_01: But there are times where I've sort of written a tweet and just thought, I'm not gonna send that because actually that's really helpful.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_01: I need to go away and pray and apologize to God for even thinking that, let alone thinking about saying it.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's hard work, and it's harder work than actually social media tends to prepare you for because we like the instant fix of it.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: We don't like to have to sort of sit back and say, is that right?
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is that healthy?
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I do think that if we are going to be a Christ-honouring presence in these tricky worlds, um, we have to do the hard work of thinking, praying, repenting when we get it wrong, making amends, seeking to do better.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that's that's really the main thing I was after uh in the article is just saying, are we thinking about it?
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or are we more captured by these things than we think, and are we less self-aware than we think?
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and let's not just stop at the uh at the level of just saying, well, someone else did something wrong, but I'll say, Well, am I in danger of the same?
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um maybe, maybe not, maybe my temptations are different.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_01: But what guardrails are there for me to actually process this through in a healthy way?
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's yeah, that's my issue.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_03: I think you've given us there like a real manifesto for how you tame the wild west, you know.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_03: And and like I I my my fear about if if it's a post-apocalyptic hellscape, if it's if it's Fury Road, then like we wash our hands, we're just like, oh, there's that dumpster fire over there called Twitter.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I might I might just you know have a look at the you know the edge of the.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_02: I should say Mad Max Fury Road is one of my favorite films of all time.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_02: I can't even pretend to think that.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I take your point.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_02: If if if we abandon the whole thing and say that that that there is no hope to be found here, there's no point in in trying to speak life into this situation, right?
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, bonus for me at the end of the month, getting the the title in.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um if we say that there is there is no no point, well, we're not trusting the gospel, we're not trusting that there is this, you know, power for the salvation of all who believe in the message of the crucified Christ, in in the one whom we worship.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_02: So so I'm not trying in any way to undermine the the all-surpassing power of God in the gospel.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_02: I suppose what I'm what I'm trying to give some color to is just the the tide.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a tide and wave situation, right?
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_02: The tide goes one way even if the waves are coming the other way, okay?
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and if the tide is going in one one direction and there are a few waves coming up over the top, the waters generally go.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_03: We know which way the tide is going, though, Nate.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_03: We know that the knowledge of the glory of the Lord will reach the ends of the earth as the waters cover the sea.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_03: We know that.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and we know, you know, like I I found the Acts 19 uh verse I was referring to earlier.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_03: The assembly was in confusion.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_03: Some were shouting one thing, some another.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_03: Most of the people did not even know why they were there.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like okay, there's a there's a verse for that.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_03: But was that the reason why Paul then, you know, turned his back on marketplaces for good?
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_03: And no, we know it wasn't.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, the the printing press, out it came.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, the Bible one day and a work of pornography the next.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_03: Well, let's let's smash all printing presses because it it might it might multiply lies.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it it you know it did, as as well as the goods, and there are all these technical technological changes that have happened that we're not going to be able to reverse.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_02: But the knowledge of the glory of the Lord is gonna go out to the ends of the earth, which is why I think Liam's point about it's consider carefully how you hear, right?
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, is is the vital thing, yes, and there is a question about whether you are you in the right place to engage with this right now?
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_02: Are you you know there's that whole thing about if you've got an angry email to write, right?
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, write it while you're angry at night, but don't send it till the the cold light of day in the morning, yeah, because then you you you're not gonna be doing something in haste.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know if that fits with don't let the sun go down while you're still angry, but anyway, you can let the sun go down, but you don't have to hit send tweets.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_02: But I here's one of the things I I think I occasionally I'll think of something hilarious, really, very, very occasionally, and I'll think, oh, I could I could put that on Twitter, I could tweet that, and I could watch all the likes and the retweets come in.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I'll build my presentation.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_02: No doubt.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_02: Undoubtedly, and then I think, do you know who find that really funny?
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_02: Probably Glenn, but I'll say I'll just send it to a WhatsApp group, or you'll put it on a, you know, I mean, Discord is sort of something a lot of people use it now.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_02: But it's really trying to think is is who is my audience right now?
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_02: Who do I actually what am I going for?
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_02: Do I just want likes and it really doesn't matter who likes it?
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_02: Am I just looking for complete random people on the internet to give me a little boost in the day with the you know the serotonin pops up on the screen?
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, or am I in relationship with people and saying, you know, I've just had a thought about you know, maybe an encouraging word from the Bible or a really insightful way of putting something.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_02: Usually it's just a Bible verse, but you can but sending that directly, which usually broadcast, not broadcast, yeah.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_02: Both.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's a you need to sort of proclaim, yeah, but sometimes you just need that to send it to someone, and they need to hear what you've got to say because it it will serve.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_03: them in a way and you're in a relationship other than just this oh there's someone on the internet and they're wrong about the world that's sure sure sure we've got uh we've got a comment from a question from James Lee he says hi chaps hello james i'd be interested to hear your thoughts on accountability and oversight of churches when it comes to these issues what are good examples of it working well that you know of i mean interestingly there have been a number of times when somebody has been going off on one on twitter and i will do any number of things what one of which is to say hey can you would you talk to your pastor about this um because the this tactic of whatever it is i've i've just looked at your feed and you say you're a christian and yet xy and z just who else who is a Christian knows that you have this account who else that is a Christian is is okay eyeballing you and talking to you yeah about this or or you know and there'd be some times when I've talked to people like I know they go to that particular church and I'm gonna talk to people who are at that particular church and say hey is this guy okay because um you okay Han are you okay Han um I think there are yeah there are there are those sorts of things we can do but what what can we do?
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um how do we affirm um the accountability and oversight of churches when we're in an online space Liam what do you reckon?
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I guess I'm not entirely clear what James's question is there whether he's talking about um uh approaches to social media um or if he's talking about accountability you know when he says these issues is he talking about the issues of uh the Marthill story the abuse of leadership abuse of power those sorts of things so I don't quite know which which angle he wants us to do both do both go on I'm not trying to do either I thought I dodged the question by uh it's unclear it's unclear um uh I mean I I think I don't have a broad enough um knowledge of the the the the the the the breadth of the church scene and uh the intricate workings of it to be able to say hey here's a great example of it um I think you can I could be clear about some of the elements that I think are really important on accountability and oversight um uh but I'm not sure I can point to any sort of clear examples on this but actually in a weird kind of way and this is not dodging the question but I want to model what I'm talking about here um is that it would be really easy for me just to kind of answer this as if I'm an expert.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not an expert and part of what I think the danger uh and not just of social media but one of the things about this podcast is that it's highlighting the issue um that church some church leaders are tempted to see themselves as the answer to every problem um or we are tempted to think that they are the answer to every problem and there should be plenty of times where church leaders stop and say I'm I don't have the answers to that let me amplify the voice of someone who is a genuine expert in this and actually I think that when church leaders uh some church leaders uh make themselves the answer to every problem that can be really damaging because it stops people getting the access to the genuine help that they need and I think one of the things about social media is it gives everyone a voice but it doesn't tell you immediately whose voices are worth listening to and so um this is absolutely deviating from the question uh but the point is I I can't give you an answer to that probably I can't give you an answer that would be really beneficial I can give you some elements uh there are some brilliant books that you can read about healthy church culture um I think relationship is important I think clarity of process is important people should know how they are able to raise concerns but also how those concerns will be dealt with uh relationship is vital but also a church that exists or a structure that exists just to protect those relationships with the close few at the middle can be really unhealthy so relationship can go toxic so I I don't know there are loads of elements in the in the math in the math that I'm learning to say I don't know more often I still think everyone should and again that's one of the points of my article like let's be honest about the limitations of our knowledge and let's amplify the voices of people who are genuine experts and are able to not only diagnose the problems but lead us onto um solutions.
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_02: I might have entirely got James's question wrong so if he wants to clarify that's totally fine but um I think you've just completely undermined Richard Pitt's um comment right at the open of this um podcast whatever this is video um I'm throwing in my ignorance and so that's really quite from you but okay been my strategy is doing I think Liam has identified this as a as a virtue who would have thought that your ignorance could actually be a virtue so you say at the beginning I don't know I don't know I don't know anything but I'll I can give you hold forth for the next hour and ten minutes.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_03: I can rant about some things sure you can push back sure you can I can you know like it I love that I love that when you when you have a funny thing you're gonna tweet instead you text me and I'm like now now I'll know you it's loads of people now I'll know now I'll know to say Nate if you're thinking about tweeting this or just beat him tweet on the heart yeah I could get a job as your tweet writer you know I guess oh man there's too many plagiarism issues uh I guess that will come up on the on the Mike Cosper uh podcast as well.
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Liam any final words um from you we've we've loved having you on and loved hearing your wisdom we we really enjoyed the the the article of yours and and I think you are exactly uh pointing out to us areas that we need to be be thinking about any any final words oh thank you well I'm I'm pointing them out to myself as well um I think just my overall uh feeling is yeah we can't really well I don't know how to talk in terms of net gains but my feeling is more hopeful rather than fearful so I don't want to be alarmist that's not my aim at all um I genuinely hope and pray and believe that there will be great things that come out of this project.
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_01: As far as I can tell I think Mike Cosper and the Christianity today team have thought about it well they'll they're they're they're they're putting out a quality product that is really helping people to engage and to learn and think I I have faith that if we respond correctly then then there'll be good things and so these these potential unintended consequences are potential and the reason that I wanted to write that is in order to say let's let's not make them actual let's leave them at the level of potential by responding well by thinking carefully about how we listen and I also like one of the things that really brings me a lot of I'm gonna bring it to Jesus at the end of the podcast which I know you're meant to do right so one of the things that fills me with a lot of hope is that Jesus describes himself as the light and that's a powerful metaphor like Jesus is the one who brings things in the dark into the light and that is painful for the people who love doing things in the dark but it needs to be right into the light.
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_01: But when Jesus shines a light on issues he doesn't just do it to raise awareness he does it because he also has the answers to it as well and I was struck by just thinking about this earlier about how in John 8 where Jesus talks about being the light of the world that whole kind of context around there is is thinking about the feast of the tabernacles where a pillar of light and fire led people out of slavery, led them to freedom in the promised land.
• 1:13:27
  SPEAKER_01: When Jesus said he is the light it's not just that he can show us the issues bring the issues out into the light it's that he can actually uniquely take us to freedom he can actually bring justice he can bring freedom from oppressive systems he can bring help and healing take us into a new life a new land and then give us the power to be a community of light as well so I know it's cliche I know it's cheesy I know it's what you expect at the end of something like this but Jesus is the answer.
• 1:13:54
  SPEAKER_01: And if all I do is say I don't know but here is and most of all here's Jesus the light like that's I think that's the best response and I can do that on social media I can do it in conversations we've got to be people who just lead people to Jesus.
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah by any means possible yeah absolutely and uh Tim Jones chiming in there saying thank you guys enjoyed listening to your discussion this evening thank you very much Tim for joining us.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_03: Liam uh if people want to catch up with you online what's the best way of doing that I feel really awful about giving my Twitter handle and stuff now we want we want to build up your platform Liam I'm I'm on all those places you can go and find them yourself if you so wish.
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to I'm sure people will and um and uh yeah please do uh be listening to that that podcast and and you know I think there's a conversation uh that people can be having as well um that hopefully we'll cast some some light into dark places which is good.
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Liam you've been so generous with your time thank you so much uh Nate Morgan Love thank you very much thank you very much and thank you to everyone who has been following along it's been fun um and it's probably uh bedtime or yes just go and do the washing up or whatever you're gonna do have some cocoa yeah I don't know yeah very nice God bless guys and uh see you again next week okay bye bye well thank you so much for listening as ever any comments or questions can be emailed to info at speaklife.org.uk you can also join in the discussions on our YouTube channel or our Facebook page both can be accessed by searching for speaklifeuk.
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Just a reminder that these sorts of discussions will be going out live on our YouTube channel Monday evenings going forward.
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_00: So if you would like to participate in the live chat and ask questions, make comments some of those comments will be read out as you just heard feel free to do that we look forward to seeing some of you there.
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening and keep speaking life