Latest / The Nerdy Photographer Podcast / 089 - Navigating the Daily Grind: Strategies for Managing Decision Fatigue as a Photographer

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089 - Navigating the Daily Grind: Strategies for Managing Decision Fatigue as a Photographer · The Nerdy Photographer Podcast

• 0:04
  Fibonacci: But I really don't want to. You have to, and you
• 0:10
  need to hurry,
• 0:12
  Gulden Hauer: snug,
• 0:14
  Casey Fatchett: ET, golden, fine, but I've got to intro the
• 0:17
  episode first. Hey everybody, welcome to the nerdy
• 0:21
  photographer podcast. I'm your host, Casey Fatchett, if this is
• 0:24
  your first time listening, in addition to providing
• 0:26
  entertaining and informative photography related content, I
• 0:29
  also go on adventures with the crew of the starship Fibonacci.
• 0:33
  In this episode, I talk with Raymond Hatfield from the
• 0:36
  beginner photography podcast to talk about decision fatigue,
• 0:40
  burnout and finding a way out of your rut. Speaking of decision
• 0:43
  fatigue, why do I have to make all the important choices around
• 0:46
  here?
• 0:47
  Fibonacci: It's part of being the captain and in most
• 0:52
  societies an adult.
• 0:56
  Casey Fatchett: Fine, fine. If I'm the only one who can do it,
• 0:59
  I will be sure to stay tuned for my discussion with Raven right
• 1:03
  after the break.
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  That's nerdy photographer comm slash recommends slash s, I, T,
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  Notes and get over there 80% off hosting and a free transfer.
• 2:18
  You're not going to regret it. You Hello, and welcome to the
• 2:25
  nerdy photographer podcast.
• 2:27
  I am your host, Casey Fatchett, and I am joined today by Raymond
• 2:30
  Hatfield from the beginner photography podcast. Welcome to
• 2:34
  the show
• 2:35
  Raymond Hatfield: Thank you, Casey. I'm excited to be here,
• 2:37
  and
• 2:37
  Casey Fatchett: we're going to jump right in with the dice
• 2:40
  breaker. Dun, dun, dun. It's a seven. All right, lucky number.
• 2:47
  Lucky number seven. What is the best piece of advice you've ever
• 2:52
  received, photography or business related,
• 2:58
  Raymond Hatfield: the best piece of advice I've ever received.
• 3:01
  You know, I I've never really been one to listen to others
• 3:06
  growing up, I always thought I was that kid who thought I know
• 3:10
  what I'm doing, like I could do this on my own. Obviously, it
• 3:14
  has changed later in life, but I think it was humble brag. This
• 3:19
  is for myself. The best piece of advice I ever learned is from
• 3:22
  myself, and it was to take the advice of others sometimes, and
• 3:27
  that you don't have all the answers and it is okay to ask
• 3:31
  for help.
• 3:31
  Casey Fatchett: Oh yes, that's a hard learned lesson. I think
• 3:35
  that it's same, the same way. And like, having like, I don't
• 3:41
  like to delegate, I don't like, I don't know how to ask for
• 3:45
  help. And a lot of a lot of times I'm like, Oh, well, you
• 3:47
  know, or there's the fear that no one is going to help, sure,
• 3:51
  yeah, there's this sort of mental barrier thinking like,
• 3:55
  well, you know, people are busy, or whatever. You know, they're
• 3:57
  not going to help me. But yeah, I think later again, same thing,
• 4:02
  later in life, I've learned, like, you know what? If you
• 4:05
  really need it, people will be the people who want to help you
• 4:07
  will be there for you. Yeah, that's definitely a good piece
• 4:12
  of advice. Ask for help. It's it's on so many levels, whether
• 4:16
  it's running a business, running a podcast, doing photography,
• 4:22
  whatever it is in your life. Ask for help when you need it.
• 4:26
  Raymond Hatfield: Well, you know, I think I, like I said,
• 4:28
  I'm not the kind of person who normally asks for help. And I
• 4:31
  think, you know, in relatively recent years, with the rise of
• 4:37
  like GoFundMe and all these like crowd crowdfunding campaigns,
• 4:41
  you see, it's like, typically, you see the ones that just like,
• 4:44
  skyrocket, you know, like, oh, this person was down on their
• 4:47
  luck, boom, now they have a million dollars, because so many
• 4:50
  people, you know, donated to help. And it's like, those are
• 4:52
  feel good stories, even though they account for, I mean, such a
• 4:56
  teeny, tiny percentage of what actually happens, kind of like
• 4:59
  what you were saying there. Out you're scared that nobody's
• 4:59
  going to actually help. I've always been terrified that I'm
• 5:04
  going to be in a situation where, for some reason, you
• 5:06
  know, if I were to need to start a GoFundMe, there'd be, like, $9
• 5:09
  in there. Need of it would be from my mom, and then my nine
• 5:13
  year old son would figure out how to donate that last dollar
• 5:15
  to me, and that would be, it terrifying thought.
• 5:18
  Casey Fatchett: I can't remember who it was, there's a celebrity,
• 5:23
  I can't remember, this was recently, like, over the
• 5:25
  pandemic, at some point, who went out and anonymously, like,
• 5:29
  funded a bunch of gofundmes, like, a bunch of, like, medical
• 5:33
  stuff, like, went out and spent like, a million dollars, like,
• 5:38
  just fulfilling, like, 1000 was something like, it was something
• 5:44
  like 1000 gofundmes, like getting them to where they
• 5:47
  needed to be in like, of just various types of, like amounts
• 5:53
  of donations. But like, to me, I was like, that's, that's a
• 6:07
  really kind of amazing thing. And they just, like, kind of
• 6:08
  like touched me. And I was like, that. Somebody was like, and it
• 6:08
  wasn't from a marketing standpoint, like, Oh, I'm gonna
• 6:08
  get a bunch of press. It came out, like, way after it happened
• 6:13
  that this is that, like, somebody who got money revealed
• 6:16
  it, like, not the person who was doing it. Like somebody started
• 6:20
  talking. It was like, Hey, this is where I got my money from.
• 6:23
  And that's crazy. Thank you to them. Like, I gotta look it up.
• 6:26
  I can't remember who it was, but it was, yeah, it was definitely
• 6:31
  a celebrity. And they just went around just, like, spending
• 6:31
  money like this in was just like, well, that's what money's
• 6:33
  for, isn't it? Right?
• 6:35
  Raymond Hatfield: Right? Yeah, before this about, I don't know
• 6:37
  what I would spend a million dollars on, honestly, like ever,
• 6:41
  but I think it's if it was a lot of small purchases like that,
• 6:44
  which is, it's crazy to me that, you know, 1000 people's medical
• 6:48
  bills only add up to, you know, a million dollars. I mean, it
• 6:51
  was, it was like, that's one person's medical bills. Well, I
• 6:54
  think it was just like, you know, it may meant I've been
• 6:57
  1000 but it was a lot. It was a lot. Yeah, the fact that it's
• 7:00
  more than two is honestly, like, surprising, like, maybe they
• 7:03
  just went in, like, fourteen thousand dollar bill,
• 7:07
  Casey Fatchett: yeah, I never know with with the healthcare
• 7:10
  the way it is in the United States. Yeah, what if I had a
• 7:15
  million dollars to just spend on something? I was just thinking
• 7:17
  about this the other day with, when I saw the announcement,
• 7:19
  like, seal with his custom Leica, you know, it's like, I'd
• 7:23
  buy at least one, like, a just, just one, just one. Like, at
• 7:28
  least one, you know, would it be the insects? Probably, yeah,
• 7:33
  yeah. But I'm not getting the kiss from the rose. No. Special
• 7:36
  Edition. Is it rose gold color? Yes. There Is it, really, and
• 7:40
  there's like, I think lyrics, I think it has lyrics, like,
• 7:40
  there's a it has lyrics, like, there's a camera strap that
• 7:43
  comes with it that has like, lyrics from
• 7:46
  Raymond Hatfield: that on it, seal, yeah,
• 7:48
  Casey Fatchett: he's a photographer.
• 7:49
  Raymond Hatfield: Obscure celebrity to partner with.
• 7:51
  Casey Fatchett: He apparently loves photography, and has been
• 7:54
  a photographer for, like, many years. And there's like, a whole
• 7:56
  bunch of like celebrities who are, like, into photography,
• 8:00
  like Jason Momoa, his mom, I think, was a photographer, and
• 8:04
  he just has, like, this huge collection of Leicas that he
• 8:08
  shoots with, like, antique and vintage stuff as well, like,
• 8:11
  just like a lot of film stuff, or like, Vigo Mortensen
• 8:17
  photographer Jeff Bridges, I think is probably,
• 8:22
  Raymond Hatfield: I don't think he has his own, you know, custom
• 8:23
  branded Leica.
• 8:24
  Casey Fatchett: No, he doesn't, but he's, he has the, I don't
• 8:27
  know if you've ever seen he makes a the wide Lux, yeah,
• 8:31
  that, yeah. It's amazing. Just like, I love looking at those
• 8:34
  photos and just going, like, that's really, really
• 8:37
  incredible. It's funny, we bring up film whenever you went to
• 8:41
  school for film before getting into photography. Well, how, why
• 8:44
  did you make that choice to switch over,
• 8:48
  Raymond Hatfield: switch over from film, from, I guess, motion
• 8:51
  pictures, to still, picture, pictures. Yeah, so I think it
• 8:55
  was and so when I was in, when I was in high school, I've never
• 9:00
  been a very good learner, and I feel like I have pretty low
• 9:04
  reading competency. So whenever we'd have to have like, book
• 9:08
  reports and stuff do an English class, which is, you know, just
• 9:11
  part of the curriculum, I'd always just bomb them. And one
• 9:16
  book we read, it was The Things They Carried. And I remember
• 9:18
  thinking, like, I get it like, I kind of get, like, the key
• 9:23
  points or whatever. But I definitely don't understand
• 9:26
  enough. I don't think I don't feel enough about this book to
• 9:28
  write, like, an entire two or three page report. And I said,
• 9:32
  I'm not going to tell my teacher. I'm just going to
• 9:33
  record a short film, like, showing that I know what
• 9:37
  happened here. And I did, and when I turned it in. He he,
• 9:42
  like, looked at it first, and was like, What is this? And then
• 9:45
  I said, just press play, which was extremely risky for me in
• 9:49
  high school for him to just press play. But he did, and the
• 9:52
  whole class watched it, and everybody was like that, you
• 9:55
  know, this was fun to watch. This was entertaining. And I
• 9:58
  got, you know, that dopamine. From that, that everybody liked
• 10:01
  it, and he told me, he's like, You never have to write another
• 10:03
  report again. Like, this was you clearly demonstrated to me that
• 10:06
  you understand and that it was writing that was the block
• 10:09
  there. So there was something in me, I think at that moment that
• 10:11
  clicked. It was like, Oh, I can, I can use this to, like, I see
• 10:15
  this as a potential career. So I continued to make movies, loved
• 10:20
  it, decided to go to film school. I loved the experience.
• 10:24
  But the job of making movies is very different as
• 10:33
  Casey Fatchett: what's that from the thought process of making
• 10:35
  movies?
• 10:36
  Raymond Hatfield: Yeah, so you show up on set and suddenly it's
• 10:38
  not, you know, you're not, you're not in all you're not in
• 10:42
  control of all the creative decisions, the Directorial
• 10:45
  Decisions, lighting decisions, acting, you know, all of these
• 10:47
  things. You're just kind of a small cog in this giant wheel,
• 10:52
  and your ideas don't always translate into the final
• 10:56
  outcome. And that kind of like, that was the part that I loved
• 11:00
  the most. And it was about that time, oh 708, that writers went
• 11:04
  on strike. Actors went on strike. Nobody was working. And
• 11:07
  I was like, I have to pay my rent somehow. And then that is
• 11:10
  when I shot a wedding with a buddy, just as like a second, I
• 11:15
  just showed up with him. And I loved the process, because
• 11:20
  suddenly I was in charge of everything again, right? Like,
• 11:21
  where I was, the focal length, how I was using light, you know,
• 11:26
  capturing the right moment. And I fell in love with it, and
• 11:29
  decided, well, you know, the whole motion picture industry
• 11:33
  right now is pretty slow, so I'm going to go ahead and move
• 11:34
  forward with with, you know, photography, and I haven't
• 11:38
  looked back since then.
• 11:39
  Casey Fatchett: It's really interesting. We both share kind
• 11:41
  of like my acting background and moving over to photography in
• 11:46
  the early, late 1900s early aughts, I was shooting.
• 11:57
  Photography had always been a hobby, and I was taking
• 12:02
  headshots for other actors as, like a side job, and then bands
• 12:10
  doing, like, a lot of promotional stuff for bands,
• 12:12
  because the bands and actors and musicians didn't hang out
• 12:15
  together for some reason. So just like, or they are, you
• 12:19
  know, multi hyphenates, whatever they I think that's the term. So
• 12:25
  that, yeah, interesting. It's interesting to see people's the
• 12:31
  steps that they take to like, out of other career paths and
• 12:36
  then into like, into photography. It's so, yeah, it's
• 12:40
  a it's very interesting. I see, I see a lot, like, I talk to
• 12:44
  people and like, people who are in an adjacent career, and then
• 12:50
  they're like, oh, yeah, photography. Just like, is what
• 12:53
  called me, or was what was going to pay the bills. Because that,
• 12:56
  that's also another reason I got out of acting, because I was
• 12:59
  just like, Yeah, I was making a little bit of money in it. And
• 13:02
  like, you know what the photography stuff is paying a
• 13:06
  lot better. Maybe I should delve into that a little bit more.
• 13:11
  Raymond Hatfield: And consistency is nice, right? And
• 13:12
  getting a paycheck every once in a while,
• 13:15
  Casey Fatchett: yeah, this certainly has a has a comfort to
• 13:21
  it being paid on a regular basis, but it's the thing is,
• 13:25
  you're running, if you're running your own business,
• 13:27
  you're only getting paid as often as you, you know, get paid
• 13:31
  like you have to put in the effort. And I, my mother, always
• 13:37
  joked that, you know, I went to when I went to college, I
• 13:41
  studied theater in English, writing, I got a journalism
• 13:45
  degree. And she's like, why don't you take a business class?
• 13:49
  And I was like, When am I ever going to need to know, like,
• 13:51
  business stuff?
• 13:54
  Raymond Hatfield: Mom, you don't know anything.
• 13:57
  Casey Fatchett: I'll take a couple of classes or something
• 13:59
  that I think. I took one business class, nothing.
• 14:01
  Obviously, that would help me run the photography business.
• 14:04
  But you know, so it's one of my things that you tell people,
• 14:07
  always my advice, take a business class. Get, get, get
• 14:13
  some understanding of how to run a business, because it's so much
• 14:16
  of our job is not taking pictures, unfortunately, yes,
• 14:21
  and it's the struggle that I deal with, like all the time,
• 14:24
  and I think we speaking off Mike, it's like social media is
• 14:29
  just like a it's the only way, it feels like it's the only way
• 14:32
  to reach people anymore, when, when you started, I think it was
• 14:37
  still like you could still get a lot of people, just by having a
• 14:43
  good website, sure, and probably word of mouth. And you know,
• 14:49
  maybe you choose a couple places to advertise, especially with
• 14:51
  weddings, maybe, maybe choose a place to advertise now, like
• 14:55
  I've been doing it for 22 years, it's they, it's just you. Like
• 15:00
  the only place. And it's not even all social media. It's
• 15:03
  like, maybe Instagram, Tiktok, like the otherwise you're not
• 15:08
  reaching anybody, like Facebook has just, like, dropped off the
• 15:11
  face of the earth. Yeah, I remember when. And probably
• 15:18
  again, there's probably, like the late aughts, early teens,
• 15:22
  when people were just like, I just put up a Facebook ad and
• 15:25
  spent 50 bucks and I got like, 10 weddings, you know, just the
• 15:29
  craziness of, like, the return on things, you could actually
• 15:32
  get your stuff in front of people.
• 15:34
  Raymond Hatfield: Yeah, that was me in the in the beginning. Is
• 15:36
  that, because it was, it was relatively easy, you know? I
• 15:40
  mean, I followed, I listened to photo visits with Andrew
• 15:43
  helmage, you know. And he had Bernie Griffiths on, who was a
• 15:46
  photography coach, who had been doing it for, you know, a
• 15:50
  million years. You know, not to he's old, but he's not a
• 15:53
  million, you know, he's a great guy, but he had this idea. It
• 15:56
  was like, you know, if you put up an ad for $5 a day, like you
• 16:00
  can get a series of leads or whatever. And I was like, Okay,
• 16:03
  let me, let me go ahead and try this. You know, I got nothing to
• 16:05
  lose here. And sure enough, I think I paid $5.03 days later, I
• 16:09
  had to turn off the ad because I got, like, such a strong
• 16:14
  response. And with that, I guess $15 over those three days. I
• 16:18
  mean, I booked my entire year up, like, right away, for just
• 16:22
  $15 yeah, and now that's just, it's not possible. I think
• 16:26
  Casey Fatchett: then you could spend like 500 bucks and be
• 16:28
  lucky to get one person,
• 16:30
  Raymond Hatfield: yeah, exactly. And honestly, I mean, I still
• 16:32
  feel like $500 I'd be, I feel like I'd be willing to spend
• 16:36
  $500 to book a wedding. But it was nice when it was only, you
• 16:42
  know,
• 16:44
  Casey Fatchett: yeah, yeah. It's like, and it's, I don't know.
• 16:49
  The the trend is, this is, I think we're getting really into
• 16:54
  weddings specifically. But I think for most photographers,
• 16:57
  just like in the experience, I just had just recorded an
• 17:01
  episode, probably the one before this, about content creation,
• 17:06
  being a content creator, and how you're kind of like being forced
• 17:10
  to be a content creator as a photographer, to get any sort of
• 17:14
  attention on social media, and does it lead to less substantive
• 17:21
  posts, like, if he was talking about, like, I want to do, like
• 17:24
  YouTube stuff, and have, you know, like explainers to people
• 17:29
  and tutorials, and he's like, but you know, there's no way to
• 17:32
  get attention for the YouTube channel without having an
• 17:35
  Instagram that goes along with it. And to do it on Instagram,
• 17:38
  you got to have like, a 15 seconds are less real. Sure,
• 17:43
  just don't get anything out of it. And you're you have to be
• 17:46
  like, so active all the time to, like, stay in front of people's
• 17:50
  face. Otherwise, like, the algorithms, like, Well, you
• 17:53
  haven't been active, and so we're not going to show things
• 17:56
  to people and and you just feel like you're on this hamster
• 17:59
  wheel of constantly having to create new stuff. And I was
• 18:05
  explaining it to a friend recently, and he was like, Oh,
• 18:07
  well, you know, how's this going? And I'm like, I reels and
• 18:12
  Tiktok. I tend to get like, I'm like, trying to figure it out,
• 18:18
  and trying to figure out what will get attention. That is in a
• 18:22
  way that actually expresses my brand. And I find myself either
• 18:28
  doing something that's very short, that's maybe seven
• 18:32
  seconds, or it's like a minute, almost a minute and a half,
• 18:34
  where I'm talking, I'm like, this is because this is the
• 18:36
  substantive part where, like, if people are watching this and
• 18:39
  we're going to connect on this level of what you like, like,
• 18:42
  what, what it is that you're concerned about as a potential
• 18:45
  client. I can't do that in seven seconds.
• 18:48
  Raymond Hatfield: Yes, no, I I'm right there with you. I can't
• 18:53
  stand it. I have not. I still have the I think I downloaded
• 18:58
  Tiktok on accident one, and I pretty much deleted it right
• 19:03
  away, and it just, and I feel like, you know, there's this,
• 19:07
  there's this conversation of, you know, oh well, you know,
• 19:12
  I'm, I'm, you know, mid 30s now, and it's like, oh, now you're
• 19:15
  just too old to be on these platforms. And I'm like, I don't
• 19:19
  think it's that. I legitimately feel like I could figure it out
• 19:22
  and it would be fine, because I don't want to be on these
• 19:24
  platforms. Like I want to create. We get into photography
• 19:29
  because, like, we want to create something. We want to share a
• 19:32
  story. We want to, you know, share a moment. We want to, you
• 19:35
  know, whatever the case is for you. And I think for me, Tiktok
• 19:41
  and like, short form videos are just too far out of the reason
• 19:46
  why I got into photography that it takes away from me wanting to
• 19:50
  shoot, and it feels like a necessary evil. And it's like, I
• 19:54
  don't want to, I don't want to play that game. Because it's
• 19:56
  like, this is all. This is all just borrowed land, right? Like,
• 19:59
  I. All social media is just borrowed land. So bending myself
• 20:04
  and who I am creatively to their will just feels, for lack of a
• 20:11
  better term, gross to me and like I don't, I don't want to do
• 20:14
  it. But as you said, it's like, well, how do you get traction?
• 20:17
  How do you get eyes on your work? And I think, you know
• 20:20
  that's something I'm still trying to figure out
• 20:22
  Casey Fatchett: I think that what you have to do is do the
• 20:25
  opposite. You have to bend them to you. You have to find the way
• 20:31
  in which your work and your West message, you bend like what gets
• 20:37
  attention on those platforms towards yourself. Because why,
• 20:43
  like, I mentioned, like, you know, long form stuff is like, I
• 20:46
  did not expect this. I got onto Tiktok because my wife said you
• 20:49
  should be on there. Maybe not as, like, photography business,
• 20:52
  but for a nerdy photographer, should be on there, reach other
• 20:56
  photographers, tell stories. And that's actually where, like, the
• 21:00
  greatest success that I've had on Tiktok has come has been from
• 21:04
  these, like, again, minute and a half to two minute videos where
• 21:08
  I talk about the story behind a photo. Interesting. Here's your
• 21:12
  photos, yes, here's an image I took. Here's the story of how I
• 21:18
  created it, or why I did it this way, why I framed it this way.
• 21:21
  You know why I took this shot? And some of them have gotten
• 21:25
  because it's celebrity shots. But like, the biggest ones are,
• 21:29
  like, the biggest two and one that, for one of my photos that
• 21:33
  has like half a million views and like 70 80,000 likes, maybe
• 21:39
  more than that, I can't remember at this point, and lots of
• 21:42
  comments. Common like, interaction and like, I've
• 21:44
  actually had a few people like, contact me about shooting
• 21:46
  weddings because of it. They're like, Oh, your work is
• 21:48
  beautiful. Is like, off of this, because they're like, We love
• 21:52
  hearing the story behind the image. And I think that is a
• 21:56
  good way to, like, express your creative vision. Why you do
• 22:02
  things in a certain way? I think that's a way of, like, taking
• 22:05
  this format and making it about the photo and about the
• 22:09
  photographer, and not about, like, I'm going to show you 15
• 22:14
  pictures in five seconds, sure, just because that's what the
• 22:17
  cool trend is. Yeah, that's the template of the day, and I'm
• 22:22
  like, what I can't see any so it's one of those things that
• 22:25
  really aggravates me, because I see it a lot, and, like, every
• 22:27
  photo looks exactly the same after a while, because you're
• 22:30
  just like, Okay, you're just trying to to you're so desperate
• 22:34
  to have content to put out there that you're Just like, recently,
• 22:39
  either recycling things or, you know, and it's like, maybe slow
• 22:45
  the conversation down a little bit, do the deeper dive, and
• 22:51
  where I have found some success with just my business part of
• 22:58
  it, like, where I was specifically like that I was
• 23:01
  kind of getting into more like, I'm gonna tell photographers,
• 23:03
  like, why I made these decisions. It happened to come
• 23:08
  back as, like, some business leads, and that may be why I did
• 23:12
  well on tick tock, because I wasn't trying to sell something.
• 23:15
  I wasn't trying to be like, hey, hire me. Ding. Like, this is,
• 23:20
  oh, call to action, where I found some more success on, say,
• 23:26
  Instagram as a platform, is when saying like, these are, there
• 23:33
  are tricks that I'm learning that help things get picked up
• 23:37
  by the algorithm, so that it bumps up a little bit, but it's
• 23:42
  talking about maybe a photo or a series of photos, like using
• 23:47
  them with the text of like, this is something that's important to
• 23:51
  you as a consumer, so this is what you're looking for. Here
• 23:57
  are a few photos. I'm not trying to jam 50 photos into 10
• 24:01
  seconds. I'm saying, like, here's two or three photos that
• 24:03
  really hit that, either the pain point that you'd learn as a you
• 24:08
  know, like when you're marketing, like, why people make
• 24:10
  decisions, what they're looking for, what you are, what is the
• 24:14
  why, you know, for people who are out there hiring you. And I
• 24:18
  think that, like using that and saying, like, Hey, you're
• 24:23
  hiring. You want to hire me because you want this. Here's
• 24:27
  this, here's the thing, of course, two or three photos,
• 24:31
  that's it, and you're out. Because it's like, that's the
• 24:34
  quick, little, short thing that the algorithm loves. But it also
• 24:39
  gets a lot of attention, because people look at it go like, Oh,
• 24:43
  yeah, that is what I'm looking for. And it can be hard to find
• 24:48
  that, but I think that that is my advice, and that's it still
• 24:51
  drives me nuts. I still just want to like I am an introvert,
• 24:56
  and a lot of people don't believe that, because I was an
• 24:59
  actor. And because I do this stuff, and I'm like, No, it's
• 25:03
  easier for me to be behind the camera. I am very self conscious
• 25:08
  about my own appearance. I don't I don't want to be in front of
• 25:12
  the camera, and I like getting up the nerve to create a video
• 25:17
  of myself talking about a photo that I took is a struggle, sure.
• 25:25
  I mean, I don't know how you feel about putting yourself on
• 25:26
  camera, but it's just like for me,
• 25:29
  Raymond Hatfield: I got no problems with it, but I think I
• 25:31
  definitely struggled with it, you know, in the beginning,
• 25:34
  because it is that same, it's that same feeling of, you know,
• 25:38
  you know all of your imperfections, and you assume
• 25:41
  that everybody else does. And because of that, like, it's
• 25:44
  scary to get on video, you know, I think in the early days of,
• 25:48
  you know, what was it? Well, forget it, that story's gone.
• 25:55
  That's embarrassing. But yeah, I think when it comes to video,
• 25:58
  like, I think for me, I have, I enjoy talking to the camera. I
• 26:03
  enjoy, you know, sharing. And again, I think it just goes back
• 26:06
  to, I'm not very good with words, writing down words that
• 26:08
  can be very long winded. And for me, it's almost just easier to
• 26:11
  get those ideas out of my head. But again, I just, I guess I
• 26:14
  just don't feel within my zone of genius, trying to because I'm
• 26:19
  long winded, I'll try to come up with this huge concept and try
• 26:22
  to get the person from, you know, what is it? Problem,
• 26:25
  unaware to problem, aware to, you know, solution, unaware to
• 26:29
  solution, aware to call to action. And I try to do all of
• 26:32
  this within 30 seconds, and it ends up being like nine minutes
• 26:35
  long. And I think, how am I going to cut this down? And it
• 26:39
  just, that's just so over the top of what it is that I want to
• 26:42
  do. I'd rather just talk for nine minutes, and the people who
• 26:46
  can listen to I don't know my diatribe, I guess will will
• 26:50
  respond to it, and then I would want to work with them, and
• 26:53
  that's kind of what I've been doing. It just doesn't fit me.
• 26:55
  Like I get it. I understand why it's a popular platform. My wife
• 26:59
  loves it. I see all the success on it. I don't think that social
• 27:02
  media is a bad thing. I just don't think that it is really
• 27:06
  for me. And finding a way to be able to share the stories that I
• 27:09
  want to share is is, is just that thing that I have to figure
• 27:14
  out. And I think at this point, it's going back to blogs, you
• 27:18
  know, and it's not having the same discovery, but having more
• 27:21
  space to be able to tell those stories, yeah, to be able
• 27:23
  Casey Fatchett: to tell a story, I was gonna say that like the
• 27:25
  one of the things that I found in, you know, don't know if you
• 27:29
  found the similar in talking to other photographers on a regular
• 27:32
  basis, the ones who have success and who Have a sustainable
• 27:41
  success, I like to say, because if you plan to do this as a
• 27:44
  career, you need to be able to sustain like and you also need
• 27:49
  to be able to scalable success. Because I've seen a lot of
• 27:54
  people who like, went from again in the world of weddings, went
• 27:57
  from like, shooting five to 10 weddings to all of a sudden,
• 27:59
  like, Oh, I've got 50 weddings next year, and it's like, what?
• 28:01
  Yes, he do, you know how to handle that situation, because
• 28:04
  that's going to be, that's a lot. You just, you just, you
• 28:08
  know, 1,000% increase in your output. And, you know, needs
• 28:16
  from clients like, you know, like, that's, that's a lot it's
• 28:20
  be able to scale that up and but the the thing that I am finding
• 28:26
  more and more so I guess, since the pandemic started, it's SEO,
• 28:32
  search engine optimization. Get in with, you know, it's becoming
• 28:39
  more networking, and real networking, not just like, Oh,
• 28:44
  hey, I know you. It's you are. It's a beneficial relationship
• 28:48
  for both of you. People who will give you like, refer you in some
• 28:53
  way to clients for weddings. That seems to be best for people
• 28:59
  to do venues, because that's the first place people go. They book
• 29:03
  the venue, and then that's an easy one. That's, that's, that's
• 29:05
  the easiest spot there. But like the Yeah, that seems to be where
• 29:10
  things are circling back to your website, your web, your your
• 29:15
  search engine presence and referrals from other vendors or
• 29:21
  other people? Yeah, I mean, because we lived through the
• 29:27
  halcyon days of the early social media where, you know, people
• 29:31
  would click off of a platform to go and check out your work. But
• 29:36
  I think that here's the thing, and this is the real hurdle for
• 29:39
  anything. I think it kind of just dawned on me, in a way, as
• 29:45
  I was saying that, like, yeah, they don't want you to click
• 29:47
  off. And that's one of the things. Like Tiktok especially
• 29:49
  does not want people leaving the platform for any reason
• 29:53
  whatsoever. Stay there, keep devoting your eyes to the
• 29:56
  platform. They don't let. Like, if people mention, oh, I have a
• 30:01
  podcast, I learned really quickly, don't say oh on the
• 30:04
  next episode of the podcast. This is what's happening, oh
• 30:07
  yeah, just Yeah. And then I would see other creator people
• 30:12
  like talking about like, oh, you know, I've got like, and they
• 30:14
  would be really creative about saying I have a YT channel. If
• 30:22
  you know, maybe want to go follow me on, you know, the IG
• 30:28
  app, you know, like thing because they were like, it would
• 30:30
  literally like, pick through people's words, because it
• 30:33
  listens to, you know, it analyzes, sure it's part of
• 30:36
  their algorithm for search is, does what person is saying on
• 30:44
  here, does that the words match up with the hashtags.
• 30:48
  Raymond Hatfield: But now you're being forced to censor your own
• 30:51
  self, your own thoughts. You have to bend
• 30:54
  Casey Fatchett: to to get to Yeah, to get the thing. And the
• 30:56
  thing is, like, that's not how I talk anyway. And I like, I just,
• 31:00
  and I maybe it's not the promotional way, but I think
• 31:06
  that it's more about having, for me on that platform, it's more
• 31:09
  about having conversations. I think, I think it's what people
• 31:13
  respond to, and maybe that's where social media is going. And
• 31:17
  I as much as whatever their problems with algorithms and
• 31:20
  things like that. It's also knowing that you if you're look
• 31:24
  back at the things that have done very well for me there,
• 31:27
  it's that I was really talking about the things that, you know,
• 31:34
  people wanted here. Well, I wasn't using like, the promoted
• 31:38
  hashtag to try to like tack on to somebody else's exposure. But
• 31:44
  yeah, finding like, whatever like we find social media is,
• 31:48
  actually becomes more social. It's great, unless, like,
• 31:52
  pitching things to people that that's wonderful. I would love
• 31:54
  to for there to be a platform where still images get
• 31:59
  attention.
• 32:00
  Raymond Hatfield: So I guess, I guess I have a question for you.
• 32:03
  First of all is, is the name podcast in your in your tic tac
• 32:06
  name? No, okay, so is it just what is? What is your tic tac
• 32:11
  name? The nerdy photo. There you go. So everybody go, go, follow
• 32:14
  the nerdy photo. Okay, so yeah, see, I guess if you have to go
• 32:19
  that far right, that you can't even have podcasts in your name,
• 32:22
  because I was trying to think, trying to think, because
• 32:23
  Casey Fatchett: in my head, oh, it's not having podcasts in your
• 32:25
  name. It's just, it's the, if you're saying podcast like, go
• 32:29
  think that your name has any I know, because I like, I there's
• 32:35
  a two guys who run I live in New Jersey, right near New York
• 32:40
  City. I used to live in New York for 20 years, but, like, I'm the
• 32:45
  Garden State podcast is, like, in very popular and but their
• 32:49
  YouTube or not YouTube, their Tiktok channel is video of them
• 32:54
  like, and this is what I try to tell all of my podcast friends
• 32:57
  outside, even outside of, like, photography podcast friends. I
• 32:59
  have so many of them who are on Tiktok and like, all they do is,
• 33:02
  like, on my next episode of the podcast, or they just, like,
• 33:06
  it's video, it's like this, like, you know, slideshow of
• 33:09
  like this is, like, the topics they're covering. And like, just
• 33:12
  saying it's a podcast episode, they this the Garden State
• 33:15
  podcast, I think does well because it's the videos they
• 33:20
  post are the two of them, like a clip from the show. Them having
• 33:23
  a conversation about a topic I see, I see, and it's like,
• 33:26
  here's a 15 to 32nd portion of our show where we are talking
• 33:32
  about a particular thing, and that's it. It's not like, they
• 33:35
  never say, go subscribe to the show. They never say that. Like,
• 33:40
  this is just another channel for them. And like, yeah, they've
• 33:43
  got 100 some 1000 followers. I think,
• 33:47
  Raymond Hatfield: I think we're at this point now to where,
• 33:48
  like, if I see two people talking in a video, I have to
• 33:52
  assume that it's a podcast. So, like, that's great. Obviously,
• 33:54
  they're using it in a promotional sense, and that
• 33:57
  works. But you know, in the sense that that you're using it,
• 34:00
  you know, that you want to use it for conversations. I in my
• 34:04
  brain, I just keep going back to this whole like, it's, I feel
• 34:08
  like, again, social media is a sinking ship, even though Tiktok
• 34:10
  is technically, like the number one website in the world. You
• 34:13
  know, I feel like I There just hasn't been anything that has
• 34:18
  had any real staying power for more than like, five or six
• 34:22
  years before something else comes along. So having those
• 34:25
  conversations, why not have them, you know, on your website
• 34:31
  or your own community, like, off of Facebook?
• 34:34
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, that's and I've, here's the my counter to
• 34:40
  that that I've had as far as like, yes, I want people to
• 34:45
  visit my website. And one of the things that I've seen more
• 34:49
  engagement on social media because of is instead of having
• 34:52
  like, like a comment thread, because comment threads on my
• 34:57
  own website, like spam, is just. So you wanna talk about like,
• 35:03
  things that drive me out of my mind, like the incessant comment
• 35:11
  spamming, like I had to switch website hosts eventually,
• 35:17
  because it was just getting so bad, I was getting like, brute
• 35:19
  force attacked. Wow, all the time by like, spam bots and all
• 35:25
  sorts of things. And also, that also wasn't very good. Go to
• 35:29
  SiteGround, everybody. Journey, photographer, Comm, slash
• 35:33
  recommends slash. SiteGround, save on your web hosting needs
• 35:37
  just we'll plug in there the Yeah, because like, so I, like,
• 35:43
  shut off comments on my blog because it was just like it was
• 35:46
  rarely getting any comments. And what I found is like, instead of
• 35:51
  a call to action to say, like, hey, hire me if you want to
• 35:56
  continue this conversation, come find me on social media, on
• 36:00
  these platforms.
• 36:02
  Raymond Hatfield: That's what you would say. Like on blog
• 36:03
  posts, yes, like,
• 36:05
  Casey Fatchett: Oh, if you want to, like, have this
• 36:07
  conversation, like, you can find this topic, you know, like,
• 36:13
  where I discuss this topic, or whatever you find the post about
• 36:17
  this wedding or this shoot, leave me a comment. Here's the
• 36:21
  link.
• 36:22
  Raymond Hatfield: But how many of them said Facebook, and then,
• 36:25
  then eventually, said Instagram, and now say tick tock. They put
• 36:30
  them all up there. You put them all up I see. So you're like,
• 36:33
  I'm gonna be available on all these places. Just come talk to
• 36:35
  me. Whatever's most convenient for you.
• 36:36
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah? And that's yeah, that is increased the
• 36:41
  conversation level. And like, people talking about stuff, so
• 36:44
  like, and, yeah, I know that the like, here's the Twitter. I use
• 36:50
  Twitter primarily only for this now, because for photography,
• 36:54
  it's just nothing is happening. Like, there's no the only thing
• 37:00
  that like Twitter was they we were like, oh, Twitter is gonna
• 37:02
  be the place for still photographers to go now that
• 37:05
  Instagram has shifted to video, shifted to video, and like,
• 37:08
  yeah, you can post it. And I see the thing is, you there's no way
• 37:12
  to know how. I'm sorry, like the sun is coming in,
• 37:16
  Raymond Hatfield: You're progressively turning into a
• 37:18
  rainbow, dark time lapse of this moment.
• 37:23
  Casey Fatchett: It's like the Dark Crystal. It's like the end
• 37:24
  of the Dark Crystal when they become like the fully formed
• 37:29
  note or something sketchy emerge. I do have one here,
• 37:33
  actually, if that'll work. Look at that. Hey. A little like lens
• 37:38
  shade,
• 37:38
  Raymond Hatfield: Hooray for post it notes. Yeah. We got
• 37:40
  ourselves a one cent matte box that should be the next tick
• 37:44
  tock hack how to get a matte box for one how to remove glare from
• 37:48
  your photos for
• 37:49
  Casey Fatchett: one cent after you scratch the hell out of your
• 37:52
  lens
• 37:53
  Raymond Hatfield: after you cover it in Vaseline and scratch
• 37:55
  it with rocks.
• 37:58
  Casey Fatchett: It's great. Yeah. Just, just supposed to,
• 38:00
  though, don't need a lens shade. You don't need a map box. Yeah,
• 38:06
  so I've found that there's an increase in engagement and but
• 38:12
  like, Twitter, like, there's no way to know, like, how anybody's
• 38:16
  gonna see it. Like, I've, I've tried it. I tried a number of
• 38:19
  variations. And, like, it's just how the algorithm picks up.
• 38:22
  Like, you'll see somebody like, post them. Like, here's like,
• 38:24
  five pictures I took, or four pictures I took of whatever city
• 38:29
  and and they and I'm trying not to be crass here, but it's like,
• 38:33
  it's not the quality of the images that necessarily like you
• 38:38
  see interaction is just because somehow, the the algorithm
• 38:44
  picked up like that. This was somebody posting photos, and
• 38:46
  like, anybody who's shown an interest in photography on
• 38:49
  Twitter, it got, it just gets promoted to the like. The
• 38:52
  algorithm just like shows that post to everybody, and you're
• 38:54
  like, and it's, it will say, usually like, because of your
• 38:57
  interest in photography, like above it. So there's no don't
• 39:03
  expect to go on Twitter and just automatically like, Oh, this is
• 39:05
  the place for photography now, yeah, maybe it will be
• 39:09
  eventually, but it's just hard to tell
• 39:12
  Raymond Hatfield: I don't know, you know. And then it's like,
• 39:15
  you know? And I think I told you this before the interview, it's
• 39:17
  like, another thing that I struggle with, really, is like,
• 39:19
  decision fatigue. So it's like, not only are there so many
• 39:23
  platforms that you have to choose from, but now it's like,
• 39:26
  well, web three is right around the corner. So it's like, why
• 39:30
  can't I just ever do anything, right? You know what I mean?
• 39:32
  Because it's like, whatever I invest my time in now is going
• 39:35
  to have to be change direction in the future. So why not just
• 39:39
  wait for that moment, or I don't, you know, that's, that's
• 39:45
  it, that's, I feel like that is the struggle of my life right
• 39:47
  there, like I don't know what to choose now. I'm just gonna wait
• 39:50
  until a decision kind of comes to me.
• 39:53
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I mean, that's, it's hard because I
• 39:54
  like, I have, I, you know, when we met, that off, Mike, I. I
• 40:00
  looked at the several lists of ideas that I have, like, sitting
• 40:03
  on my desk, like, Oh, here's some lists. Here's list of ideas
• 40:07
  for blog posts, and here's a list of ideas for outreach to
• 40:11
  press, and here's the list of ideas for podcast episodes, and
• 40:16
  here's my list of real and tick tock ideas, you know, like, in
• 40:20
  the sort of like, but
• 40:21
  Raymond Hatfield: like, Wait, where was your list of photos
• 40:24
  that you want to take? It's a good question.
• 40:27
  Casey Fatchett: That's a struggle that I've been dealing
• 40:29
  with for at least the last two years. Whole other topic of
• 40:36
  conversation where, like, I just feel like, yeah, I have some
• 40:41
  projects that I want to do, but then I just feel like, and some
• 40:44
  of those things, like, some of those ideas for like videos are
• 40:48
  like, Okay, I want to do this project, but I want to also,
• 40:50
  like, record this as part of it, or talking about past projects,
• 40:55
  and like, trying to get that creative juice back, because
• 40:58
  That is something I'm struggling with the fatigue of running a
• 41:03
  business, running a business.
• 41:05
  Raymond Hatfield: I know, do you think that this fatigue is I
• 41:09
  know that a lot of photographers felt this way, that it comes
• 41:11
  from the pandemic. Like, do you think that that was a catalyst
• 41:14
  for you?
• 41:14
  Casey Fatchett: Ah, I think, I mean, there was fear. I think it
• 41:19
  was the pandemic. Like, where's the next way? Yeah, how am I
• 41:22
  going to pay for stuff? Because I, you know, weddings are 80% of
• 41:28
  my business, yeah, 85% of my business. And just going like,
• 41:31
  oh, well, that's gone this year, at least maybe following year. I
• 41:36
  mean, it's just finally starting to creep back into like, normal
• 41:40
  ish again, and you know that that sort of, maybe we'll talk
• 41:46
  about this in a little bit, but like, that sort of made me take
• 41:49
  stock of what I was doing and, like, what do I want to do? Had
• 41:53
  this conversation with other photographers I know who were,
• 41:55
  like, primarily studio people. Like, I don't know if you're
• 41:59
  familiar with Johnny Edward. He was on and he's like, like, I
• 42:07
  blows my mind. Like looking at his photos, sometimes I'm just
• 42:10
  like, Man, I wish I had a studio, which is funny, because
• 42:14
  I lived in New York City for so long, and I had two different
• 42:19
  students, huge studio spaces that I didn't use. I shared them
• 42:24
  with other people. I didn't use them to shoot in. I was using
• 42:26
  them to do meetings about weddings, because I was
• 42:30
  shooting, like, 30 weddings a year or something like that. And
• 42:33
  just being like, I was constantly doing meetings. I
• 42:35
  never had time to work on anything. I would occasionally
• 42:40
  do, like, portrait sessions there, but it really wasn't in.
• 42:43
  The reason I got rid of them was because I couldn't, you know,
• 42:45
  the rent got raised, and I was just like, why am I spending
• 42:47
  this money on a studio that I don't use? I'm just gonna get a
• 42:51
  meeting space, but now I'm sitting there. Man, wish I had a
• 42:57
  studio space I'd like to, like, delve into creatively, into my
• 43:01
  lighting, or, like, really think about a project and just like,
• 43:05
  sit down and like, I'm gonna need space to do this, that sort
• 43:10
  of thing. And, like, maybe getting into that more than
• 43:14
  just, like, running outside and shooting things outside, where,
• 43:18
  again, I'm bringing my portable lighting with me. Yeah, it's a I
• 43:22
  think that the pandemic made me think differently about the
• 43:28
  business. Yes, for sure, and like, do I? And it's something
• 43:34
  that I've seen a lot, because I okay in your experience, go
• 43:40
  deep, yes, but do you remember when everybody's like, you have
• 43:43
  to be super specialized in your photography? Yes, you have to
• 43:47
  have super niche, super tight niche, because that's how you're
• 43:50
  gonna get like, the people like, who really want what you offers.
• 43:53
  But being like, super, super, super focused, and you're seeing
• 43:56
  people become more generalized again, and like opening
• 43:59
  themselves up to other kinds of business. Do you find that like
• 44:04
  for yourself or like you like,
• 44:08
  Raymond Hatfield: you know, I find that I have just like
• 44:10
  different areas of focus, like, I definitely see it, I think,
• 44:13
  in, in the industry, and I think one of the, I think, best
• 44:16
  examples, and I don't know if this is and I asked him, so I
• 44:19
  guess I'll set this up. So I interviewed Joe McNally on the
• 44:23
  podcast a few months ago, and he said, You know, I specifically
• 44:29
  asked, like, about this question, you know, being a
• 44:32
  specialist versus being a generalist. He very much prides
• 44:35
  himself on being a generalist. And I asked, I was like, Do you
• 44:37
  think this is, do you think that somebody coming up into
• 44:41
  photography today could still be a generalist. And he said, it's
• 44:44
  going to be a whole lot harder for you, you know, and I think
• 44:47
  that being known for something, right? I think at this point,
• 44:52
  you can generally be a wedding photographer. I think that you
• 44:55
  can generally be a headshot photographer. I don't think that
• 44:58
  you have to be high. Hyper focused or specialized on, I'm
• 45:03
  only going to shoot, you know, 23 to 27 year old brides who are
• 45:08
  going to grad school and aspire to be a lawyer. You know, I
• 45:12
  don't think that you have to do that anymore, when, when we were
• 45:16
  given all of these options, because the internet felt new.
• 45:20
  And, you know, typically, the typical age of, you know,
• 45:22
  somebody getting married is, like, this kind of young adult
• 45:24
  feel, and they feel like I now have control over what it is
• 45:29
  that I see on the internet, what I search for on the internet,
• 45:32
  that I can go after and to see something that seems so tailor
• 45:35
  made to you. Feels awesome, right? That's why I don't know,
• 45:39
  10 years ago on Facebook. I don't know if you remember this,
• 45:42
  but like, I would start getting ads that would say, like, I'm
• 45:46
  the best Raymond there is. And I'd be like, what? How did they
• 45:49
  figure this out? How did they know what? Like, oh, and I was
• 45:53
  never by that shirt, right? But there was this like, interest in
• 45:57
  it, like, Oh, that is made for me. That is
• 45:59
  Casey Fatchett: truly made for me, yes, so hyper focused. I
• 46:03
  think that's interesting to say, like the the curated nature, and
• 46:09
  it's becoming more like it's something that I've discussed
• 46:12
  with other people about, like, movie and music discovery. We
• 46:18
  talk about like Gen Z and how they interact with things. And
• 46:24
  there's a lot of, there's a lot of flack on Tiktok as a platform
• 46:28
  for like these Gen Z kids who are like, I just watched this
• 46:31
  movie you've probably never heard of. It's called JAWS. And
• 46:37
  the older like, you see these like, Gen Xers, just like, What
• 46:42
  are you crazy? Like? Of course, we've seen jaws. Yes, we've seen
• 46:45
  Pulp Fiction, like these movies, like they had huge, yes, huge
• 46:50
  movies. But the thing is, they've never heard of them
• 46:54
  because they're on streaming platforms, and all they get is
• 46:58
  the same stuff over and over and over again, right? What is
• 47:02
  curated to them. So there's like that sort of, I think there's
• 47:05
  becoming a backlash to that now, even in the sort of, like
• 47:10
  curators, oh, I want somebody who's so hyper focused on the
• 47:14
  exact same the exact thing that I do, we want maybe more of an
• 47:19
  emotional connection to something, as opposed to, oh,
• 47:23
  it's they're just looking to check this box. Maybe I'm giving
• 47:28
  people to maybe a little too much faith in humanity. Who
• 47:30
  knows? But, yeah, people this. People are like, I, you know,
• 47:34
  only like you said, Oh, I only shoot the 25 year old like
• 47:40
  barrel riders rodeo. So, so hyper specific, and I think it's
• 47:48
  Joe McNally Great. Get definitely look forward to
• 47:51
  listening to that. But it's interesting because he, you
• 47:54
  know, comes up as a journalist like and you have to that's kind
• 48:00
  of how I started, in some ways in photography, outside of just
• 48:05
  doing headshots, was like, you know, because I had a journalism
• 48:07
  degree, you know, doing things, and you have to do so many
• 48:10
  different things, yes, and that is no longer a, I mean,
• 48:16
  journalism platforms, like newspapers, it doesn't like,
• 48:20
  they don't focus on this stuff anymore, and a lot of times it's
• 48:22
  now because of, you know how they can do things that they
• 48:26
  want video a lot of times, as well as stills, they want to do
• 48:30
  interviews with somebody on location. And I have friends who
• 48:35
  are photojournalists, so it's not quite the same as it used
• 48:39
  to. Like, he said, it's gonna be much harder to be a generalist.
• 48:42
  But I think that that was a specific way when he was coming
• 48:47
  up, and probably until the early aughts, until, like, they
• 48:51
  started, like, you know, newspapers started getting
• 48:54
  buyed, bought up. And buy it up, when I say, buy it up, bought
• 48:58
  up. And then, like, cutting their newsrooms and like
• 49:01
  photographers were of, you know, first line of cuts, because
• 49:05
  people were taking pictures on their cell phones. And we can
• 49:07
  just use the cell phone photos and things like that.
• 49:09
  Raymond Hatfield: Just have the journalists take a quick cell
• 49:11
  phone snap, and then we can just get rid of our photographer.
• 49:15
  Casey Fatchett: I've actually, I've actually been in the room
• 49:18
  when those conversations were had, like in some instances
• 49:21
  where they were talking about, like, where I was on an
• 49:24
  assignment, because I still occasionally do assignments here
• 49:27
  and there, and we'd be talking about, okay, we have X amount of
• 49:33
  time with you, like, and like, logistically, where can you go
• 49:38
  during this time frame to do pictures? And then they'd be
• 49:41
  like, well, so and so and so is going to do an interview with
• 49:43
  this person. We'd really love to have you there to take pictures.
• 49:50
  Can you be there? And I'd be like, ah, yeah, well, like this
• 49:53
  thing, who I think is the headliner for the day, and I
• 49:56
  really need to be at that. And there's no way. Just like, oh
• 49:59
  well, we'll just have them take. A picture with their cell phone.
• 50:03
  Like, I will do my best, you know, what I can. I'll get
• 50:08
  there. I'll get there because we're talking about, like, you
• 50:10
  know, an interview with a, you know, fairly famous person or
• 50:14
  whatever, who needs to get like, you're just gonna take some
• 50:17
  hacky cell phone photo directly above. Yeah, find, find a
• 50:23
  window.
• 50:25
  Raymond Hatfield: Yeah, this was them right in front of the
• 50:26
  window. You face the window, there'll be a silhouette of
• 50:32
  those famous
• 50:33
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, it's artsy. It's very artsy, very
• 50:37
  it's a choice. Yeah, can people recognize who this is from the
• 50:42
  silhouette and not a profile either, just like the back of
• 50:46
  their head straight on? Yeah. Look at those shoulders. You
• 50:48
  know. You know. You know who that is, yeah. So it's been in
• 50:53
  that room, and I think it's just like it's, there is a need now
• 50:59
  more than ever, for visual content, but there's also this
• 51:03
  sort of sense that anybody can produce it with your phone. Oh,
• 51:09
  cinematic mode, my iPhone that, yeah, I think that that's one of
• 51:15
  the things that the especially for people who are starting out.
• 51:18
  I like what you said was, like, you can be more general if
• 51:21
  you're already known for something, you're already known
• 51:25
  as the wedding photographer or the hedgehog photographer,
• 51:30
  Raymond Hatfield: I think a lot of it had to do with, I think
• 51:32
  that there's this change in recent years, because there was
• 51:36
  so much information that people should be a specialist, and then
• 51:41
  they niche down so deep. And then I think it was those,
• 51:44
  probably those brides, who hired the photographer. Like, wait,
• 51:48
  I'm 25 I want to be an you know, I'm an aspiring lawyer. This is
• 51:51
  the perfect wedding photographer for me. And then discovering,
• 51:54
  like, oh, there's really nothing special about this. Like they
• 51:56
  didn't go out of their way, like they just decided to name
• 51:59
  themselves this. They're not better for me in any way, right?
• 52:03
  And that information probably got out to their friends or, you
• 52:06
  know, just in the way that the photos turned out that it wasn't
• 52:09
  anything spectacular. And now I don't think that there is such a
• 52:13
  need, probably, except for high end, you know, either magazines
• 52:19
  or something like, where, you are photographing something or
• 52:22
  somebody very notable, and need something for a very specific
• 52:26
  reason, but at that point, I would think that there's
• 52:27
  probably some sort of, you know, image editor involved to make
• 52:31
  these decisions.
• 52:32
  Casey Fatchett: There's the photo editor or somebody behind
• 52:35
  the scenes who's pulling strings on that. Yeah, I think that
• 52:39
  that's, you're probably right. I think there's, like, that's why
• 52:42
  I'm talking about, like, the backlash for like, these hyper
• 52:47
  specific things that people were just like, Oh, they're not
• 52:50
  actually that hyper specific. It's like they went to a
• 52:53
  marketing class and we're told what their ideal client profile
• 52:58
  was, and they just chose a bunch of words that would appeal to me
• 53:02
  and, you know, but their photos aren't better than my friends,
• 53:05
  who is a, you know, who's a nurse and blah, blah, blah, like
• 53:10
  they went to the nurse photographer.
• 53:15
  Raymond Hatfield: And then also those photographers who are
• 53:17
  like, Oh man, I have, I have six weddings this year. Now, great.
• 53:22
  They're all, you know, these aspiring lawyers that are my
• 53:24
  ideal client, but is, is the is the market size really big
• 53:29
  enough to sustain my business year after year? And then they
• 53:32
  get relaxed on these things, and I think that they probably found
• 53:35
  more success, and then they just continued with it. And I think
• 53:38
  that's how we kind of got to where we are today.
• 53:40
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I think that there's two things you
• 53:42
  either had, like, the people who that also probably why the
• 53:45
  people who get out of weddings after like, five years and then
• 53:48
  become marketing like, they're more like, why am I teaching my
• 53:51
  marketing scheme? Because they just like, take what they bought
• 53:54
  from somebody else, and they like, repackage it, and be like,
• 53:56
  I'm gonna be a marketing expert. Because I don't really, I'm
• 54:00
  really not. And then that's always the question I ask, like,
• 54:02
  what if you're doing so great, why are you teaching classes on
• 54:07
  how to market yourself? Why are you spending most of your time
• 54:11
  trying to sell me on your class? Because there's a whole other,
• 54:15
  you know, funnel of money that can be made. And it's, you know,
• 54:19
  that is what it is. But yeah, I think that people got tubes
• 54:23
  specific, instead of thinking about like I was saying before,
• 54:27
  the emotional connection, as opposed to this, is totally
• 54:31
  based on your job or specific, very specific age range. I think
• 54:40
  that it's or what TV show you watch the most, right?
• 54:45
  Raymond Hatfield: If you don't like scrubs, I'm not shooting
• 54:47
  your wedding. I'm sorry.
• 54:48
  Casey Fatchett: I'm the Parks and Rec photographer. I am not
• 54:51
  the office photographer. I know they're very similar, but I am
• 54:56
  more of a Ron Swanson than you know. Yeah. Michael, yeah, I'm
• 55:02
  not a Michael Scott, I'm around Swanson, yeah, that that sort of
• 55:08
  granular, like, super granular, attempt at, like, distinguishing
• 55:12
  yourself from everyone else, at least.
• 55:15
  Raymond Hatfield: How do you stand out then? Like, if you
• 55:17
  can, if you can, then be a, you know, quote, unquote, generalist
• 55:20
  photographer, say, you know, in in my case, it'd be Indianapolis
• 55:24
  wedding photographer. How do I? How do I stand out against all
• 55:26
  the other Indianapolis wedding photographers?
• 55:28
  Casey Fatchett: I think, personally and I, what I, where
• 55:32
  I have gained the most ground in photography has been by focusing
• 55:39
  on the emotional reasons why people like a certain type of
• 55:45
  photo, or the experience that they have while having their
• 55:48
  picture taken, as opposed to being so specific about, you
• 55:53
  know, their demographic demographics. My demographic is
• 55:58
  people who aren't comfortable on camera. Personally, that's
• 56:03
  because I am not comfortable on camera, and so I have made it a
• 56:07
  big deal for me, like how I make people feel at ease in front of
• 56:11
  the camera. And there are lots of people who somebody goes,
• 56:13
  well, this isn't your person. Type of person. They look look
• 56:16
  how like outgoing and whatever they're like, No, I got them to
• 56:20
  feel comfortable doing that. I got them to feel comfortable
• 56:25
  having their picture taken. Because normally, and I always
• 56:28
  like, well, you know, my fiance, he does not like to have his
• 56:32
  picture taken. Like, that's a thing. So leaning into that. And
• 56:36
  there are other people who are like, I want that adventure
• 56:38
  element. I look at other photographers who are like,
• 56:39
  these adventure elopement photographers. It's about the
• 56:45
  experience for them, and also like that they have somebody who
• 56:49
  shares that ideal of going out and climbing on I love to hike.
• 56:55
  I am not climbing up a fucking Mountain. As beautiful
• 56:59
  helicopter beautiful, as beautiful as these photos are,
• 57:03
  and I am not gonna say that, because I'm hoping to interview
• 57:06
  some folks who do that in the near future, but it's just like,
• 57:11
  I can't imagine spending, you know, like there was a guy, I
• 57:17
  can't remember his name right now, whoever called the show,
• 57:24
  like, the journey that they would make to get up to these,
• 57:27
  like, mountaintops for these photos. And they mean, like, you
• 57:30
  know, we've got an hour up here before the weather changes, and
• 57:33
  we got to start getting, like, people are changing into their
• 57:35
  wedding dress and, you know, suit next to some fir trees.
• 57:40
  Yeah, they basically have the only little pop up tent.
• 57:42
  They're, like, getting ready there, and now we're going to
• 57:45
  take some pictures on top of this mountain. But it's the
• 57:48
  experience for them, because he's taking photos all the way
• 57:51
  up and all the way down, and it's just like, I'm laughing and
• 57:54
  talking and like, enjoying this experience together. I That's
• 57:57
  not for me. So, I mean, like finding those things in a more
• 58:02
  emotional level than just like, oh, this is the show you watch.
• 58:07
  This is what you do for a living. This is what you like,
• 58:10
  the finding some sort of emotional connection. Because
• 58:13
  people buy emotionally, of course, I do it all the time.
• 58:18
  They're not so they're more willing to make the purchase
• 58:25
  when they feel like you get them on that deeper level. And I
• 58:29
  think that that's what happened, was people were trying to make
• 58:33
  those connections, because, like, Oh, we're the same. We
• 58:36
  both watch the same TV show, or we want we love the same movie,
• 58:39
  or we read the same book. So like, we must be a connection.
• 58:43
  We must have a connection. Well, no, that's kind of a very
• 58:45
  superficial connection, because there are people that whose
• 58:48
  ideals I definitely don't agree with, who might watch the same
• 58:53
  television program that I do and enjoy it, so that you have to
• 58:57
  connect with them on a deeper level. And I think that's going
• 59:01
  back to the social media thing, where, like my discussions about
• 59:06
  the behind the scenes of some of my photos, of why it's resonated
• 59:11
  with people is because they get where I was coming from and why
• 59:17
  they they feel the same way about what they want. They want
• 59:21
  someone who feels that way or takes that approach to their
• 59:25
  pictures. So let me
• 59:26
  Raymond Hatfield: So let me ask you a question here. Sure, for
• 59:29
  the past few years, my favorite clients have been ones who I do
• 59:36
  not agree with on many levels, politically, you know, socio
• 59:42
  economically, I suppose we have very Opposing Viewpoints, and
• 59:48
  yet some of them are my favorite clients, and I find that the
• 59:51
  clients who I have the most in common with, as far as I guess
• 59:55
  world views are, they're just like. You know, the meat and
• 1:00:00
  potatoes type couples, you know, like they're okay, it was fun.
• 1:00:05
  Like, what does that say about me? Qualified to answer that
• 1:00:09
  question.
• 1:00:09
  Casey Fatchett: But let me brush off my one Psych class that I
• 1:00:15
  took in college,
• 1:00:18
  Raymond Hatfield: maybe right before the one business class,
• 1:00:20
  right?
• 1:00:20
  Casey Fatchett: Yes, yes. I slept through most of it
• 1:00:25
  Thursday after midweek parties. My initial thought and hearing
• 1:00:32
  that is that maybe it's because it's a challenge. You feel
• 1:00:37
  challenged by those people in some way, and that's giving you
• 1:00:42
  sense of purpose. Because, I mean, listen, I've been doing
• 1:00:47
  weddings for 22 years. I don't know how you feel about
• 1:00:51
  weddings, but, like, I definitely go through phases
• 1:00:54
  where I'm just like, I don't want to do this anymore. Oh
• 1:00:57
  yeah, I just, it's, and it's, and it's, I can time it out
• 1:01:03
  every five years.
• 1:01:05
  Raymond Hatfield: Oh, really, cycles. You're thinking like,
• 1:01:07
  long term. Not like, not like, I'm ready to go home tonight.
• 1:01:11
  Oh, oh,
• 1:01:12
  Casey Fatchett: there have been no out of this. Oh, no, I'm
• 1:01:14
  talking long term. And there are definitely those times where I'm
• 1:01:17
  at a wedding and I'm just like,
• 1:01:21
  Raymond Hatfield: yeah, the exit is six hours after the cake,
• 1:01:26
  Casey Fatchett: looking at my watch. Like, really, did we? Did
• 1:01:28
  you really need to hire me for 10 hours? There was one wedding?
• 1:01:33
  Like, I've, I've done 750 something weddings at this
• 1:01:41
  point, and I kind of get, like, they're things that, like, pop
• 1:01:45
  out my head is like, bad experiences are very slim, like,
• 1:01:49
  it's a small percentage. It's not like an overwhelming
• 1:01:52
  percentage. But there was a wedding I did where no one
• 1:01:54
  danced at all, like the one
• 1:01:59
  Raymond Hatfield: I did one of those as well. And I got to tell
• 1:02:00
  you that story, but I want to hear yours.
• 1:02:03
  Casey Fatchett: Like they came out and did their first dance,
• 1:02:09
  and there was like one, like, then, like people came out and
• 1:02:13
  danced with them, like, immediately, in this, like the
• 1:02:16
  for the song after the first dance. And that was it. That was
• 1:02:20
  just people sitting at tables, and
• 1:02:22
  Raymond Hatfield: by choice, yeah, like, they were like, we
• 1:02:24
  don't, we don't feel comfortable dancing in front
• 1:02:27
  Casey Fatchett: of everybody. The DJ, who was also a saxophone
• 1:02:29
  player, because he was like, come out and be just like, like,
• 1:02:33
  I'm play along with the song or whatever. And he's like, trying
• 1:02:37
  everything, and he just keeps looking at me, like, How in the
• 1:02:40
  hell do I get these people out of their seats? He's like, I
• 1:02:43
  don't know. Like, I'm trying, like, different genres of music,
• 1:02:47
  and they're all just, like, sitting around, like, just and
• 1:02:50
  I'm looking for photos. I am so like, what do you do? Eager to
• 1:02:55
  try to, like, find somebody having an animated conversation.
• 1:02:58
  And there wasn't an animated conversation to be found.
• 1:03:02
  Raymond Hatfield: Everybody's just looking at their napkins.
• 1:03:04
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, they're just kind of like, oh yeah, the
• 1:03:06
  food is great. Oh thanks, Dave. Why do you hope traffic isn't
• 1:03:10
  too bad when we leave? Oh yeah,
• 1:03:12
  Raymond Hatfield: What did you think happened right before the
• 1:03:13
  wedding? Do you think maybe it was a, like, a, like, a doomed
• 1:03:16
  relationship? Oh they're really going through with it
• 1:03:18
  Casey Fatchett: I don't think that was it. I think it was, it
• 1:03:21
  was a weird crowd. It was like, the it wasn't young, well, there
• 1:03:25
  were like, some teenagers and small children, but then the
• 1:03:30
  rest of it was like a kind of like, there was no like, 20s and
• 1:03:34
  30s crowd, who might be the kind who, like, at least a few of
• 1:03:39
  them get on the dance floor and then, like the older people,
• 1:03:43
  like, hey, you know what, we're gonna join you. Hey, none of
• 1:03:47
  that, none of that. And just like, nobody, like, showed an
• 1:03:52
  interest in, like, they were more interested in having
• 1:03:56
  conversations amongst themselves, their tables and,
• 1:03:59
  yeah. So tell me your story.
• 1:04:01
  Raymond Hatfield: Hours. Did you just stand around and do
• 1:04:03
  nothing? Did
• 1:04:06
  Casey Fatchett: they have a grand exit? No, they did not
• 1:04:07
  have a grand exit. But they had, like, hired me to be there. I
• 1:04:10
  was there the reception for four hours. Oh, my goodness. And just
• 1:04:15
  like, try and I think I took maybe 200 pictures.
• 1:04:20
  Raymond Hatfield: You got to get the details of the cake. You got
• 1:04:22
  to get the place settings.
• 1:04:24
  Casey Fatchett: I took a lot of pictures during that first
• 1:04:26
  dance, thankfully. So many. That is too funny. So what happened
• 1:04:31
  to yours?
• 1:04:32
  Raymond Hatfield: Well, this one was actually one of my, one of
• 1:04:34
  my most recent weddings. This was a couple, and they were,
• 1:04:37
  they were very young, almost. I don't want to say too young, but
• 1:04:43
  almost, like, I think that they had both, like, just turned 21
• 1:04:47
  all right, and they had told me before their wedding, they're
• 1:04:50
  like, We love board games. Board games are our favorite things
• 1:04:53
  ever. That's how we bonded. That is what we do with our friends.
• 1:04:57
  We all have so much fun. It is like. What we love to do. So our
• 1:05:01
  reception board case, I was like, cool, that sounds, you
• 1:05:05
  know, fun, thinking in my head, I was like, there's gonna be
• 1:05:07
  lots of, you know, action shots, like laying down, I don't know
• 1:05:10
  that reverse uno card. Everybody's like, oh, that's
• 1:05:12
  crazy. You know, whatever it is, come the day of, I find out that
• 1:05:17
  they told everybody not to dance, like you're not allowed
• 1:05:22
  to dance, and because they wanted to encourage people to
• 1:05:26
  play games, right? And it was, it was a beautiful summer
• 1:05:30
  evening outside. There were, there were games as well, like
• 1:05:33
  yard games. People were playing those. But you could kind of
• 1:05:37
  feel it. You know that the energy was kind of shifting
• 1:05:40
  after a while, like, people are gonna played four rounds of, you
• 1:05:44
  know, Cards Against Humanity. What's Can we do something else?
• 1:05:48
  Can we do something else here? And they think they also had an
• 1:05:51
  open bar so, so the aunts and the uncles were like, we're
• 1:05:57
  ready to move and groove. Like, that's what we were expecting
• 1:05:59
  here at this wedding. So they specifically put up the the
• 1:06:03
  dinner buffet in the middle of the dance floor again, to
• 1:06:07
  discourage dancing, discourage any dancing. And at one point,
• 1:06:12
  so they just had, you know, the because obviously the music
• 1:06:14
  wasn't a big deal to them. They just had a Spotify playlist
• 1:06:17
  going on, and that was working out just fine, because nobody
• 1:06:20
  was dancing. And then at one moment I was there looking at
• 1:06:25
  the couple, and I'm taking their photo, and they were playing
• 1:06:28
  Ticket to Ride, right, which is such a fun game. So I was like,
• 1:06:32
  kind of into it. I was like, how they got the they got the LA to
• 1:06:34
  Miami, they're doing it. And at that moment I saw the the ants
• 1:06:38
  rush past me, and you know, I kind of look at them because
• 1:06:41
  there's no commotion going on. And along with the like their
• 1:06:45
  husbands, they all grab a table, move it off to the side, and
• 1:06:50
  then they play Earth, Wind and fires, September, right? And
• 1:06:53
  then, at that moment, as if everybody knew what was
• 1:06:57
  happening, every single person got on that dance floor and just
• 1:07:03
  had the most amazing dance experience I had ever seen in my
• 1:07:08
  life. And there was probably five people at the table playing
• 1:07:12
  games with the bride and groom, and you could tell that every
• 1:07:14
  single one of them wanted to get up and dance so bad, and the
• 1:07:18
  bride and groom didn't even like, they didn't register it,
• 1:07:23
  yeah, at all. They just continued. They were, like,
• 1:07:26
  laser focused on this game. They weren't paying attention to it.
• 1:07:29
  Everybody was having a blast. And then the second that the
• 1:07:33
  song ended, they picked back up the tables, they brought it to
• 1:07:37
  the middle of the dance floor. Everybody went back to their
• 1:07:41
  tables, and it was as if nothing had happened, like nobody had
• 1:07:44
  the idea to hey, what if we just kept dancing? But you could tell
• 1:07:48
  in the couple's eyes that it was just fire be, you know, behind
• 1:07:52
  the eyes, and they were not happy about it. And in that
• 1:07:56
  moment, I was like, I'm so glad that I that, like I saw this in
• 1:07:59
  person, because I wouldn't have believed it otherwise. I never
• 1:08:02
  would have believed it otherwise, yeah, but the rest of
• 1:08:04
  that time, it was just kind of lots of standing around and
• 1:08:08
  talking to family members and friends and like, you know, how
• 1:08:10
  do you know the couple and stuff like that? Because you can only
• 1:08:13
  take so many pictures of croquet and cards and cornhole.
• 1:08:20
  Cornhole. Yeah, exactly, little Ultimate Frisbee, or whatever it
• 1:08:23
  was. And you're like, Okay, I'm ready to go at this point. But
• 1:08:27
  at this point, I mean, I had been ready to I think, I think
• 1:08:31
  during the pandemic, there was really a change within me that,
• 1:08:34
  that I've realized some of the weddings after, you know, after
• 1:08:39
  we were allowed to start shooting weddings again, I
• 1:08:40
  thought to myself, I'm ready to go home, you know, like I'm not,
• 1:08:44
  I'm not excited to be here anymore. And I think that once I
• 1:08:48
  realized, after like, the fourth or fifth wedding of me thinking
• 1:08:51
  that something has changed within me. And I'm not sure if I
• 1:08:57
  am as in love with weddings as I once was, so looking to the
• 1:09:01
  future, I'm trying to find something new to pursue my
• 1:09:05
  creative endeavors. Interesting.
• 1:09:06
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, okay, yeah. And I think that that's a
• 1:09:10
  mean for me. It's something I said I regularly, like, every
• 1:09:15
  five years, find myself coming back to it and like, do I still
• 1:09:19
  enjoy doing this? And there are times where I've been like,
• 1:09:22
  Okay, I don't like the business side of it. I agree that
• 1:09:29
  something, there's been a change since the pandemic, in a lot of
• 1:09:33
  ways.
• 1:09:36
  Raymond Hatfield: You mean just with you, or the
• 1:09:38
  Casey Fatchett: just the wending industry. I think that there's,
• 1:09:39
  there has been, I remember the first big wedding I did after
• 1:09:45
  the pandemic, where I was in a room with like over 100 people
• 1:09:49
  again, and I was, I was freaking out, like, I just feel like,
• 1:09:53
  what is going on? I used to do this all the time. I used to do
• 1:09:56
  this almost every weekend. Like. Who are all these people? And
• 1:10:03
  it's like I had not been around a group, a group that large, in
• 1:10:06
  a long time. And yeah, it just felt weird. And for the most
• 1:10:14
  part, I've been pretty good, but I have had those feelings at
• 1:10:18
  times too, where I'm sort of like, do we really need to keep
• 1:10:22
  doing this? Do we really keep going and not on, like, a sort
• 1:10:26
  of like, I'm bored level on a kind of like, I don't know if I
• 1:10:33
  want to be here. That occasionally happens, and I
• 1:10:39
  think that has become more frequent since the pandemic than
• 1:10:45
  it was pre pandemic. I think pre pandemic that was kind of, I
• 1:10:52
  don't this crowd is not my vibe, sort of thing. Like, yeah, I'm
• 1:10:56
  not, like, not digging the drunk Music Festival, we're using
• 1:11:04
  pyrotechnics indoors. Thing, I just don't feel safe, or, you
• 1:11:09
  know, like things like that,
• 1:11:10
  Raymond Hatfield: because that's exactly how I marketed myself as
• 1:11:13
  a photographer. I was the photographer for people who are
• 1:11:15
  having pyrotechnics indoors that were definitely not safe. Dude.
• 1:11:18
  Casey Fatchett: I had a wedding once where they had like
• 1:11:21
  sparklers, like the in bottles, like the shooting out, like, and
• 1:11:27
  they're like, oh, carrying the bottles around, and there's like
• 1:11:29
  hanging fabric, you know, they're like decorative hanging
• 1:11:33
  fabric. And I kept going, like, you cannot do that, like you're
• 1:11:36
  gonna set this stuff on fire, like you can't. And I was, like,
• 1:11:41
  moved all of my gear, like, close to the door, like, the
• 1:11:44
  nearest fire exit. I was like, this place might be going up,
• 1:11:47
  and I know where I'm headed when, like, just gonna grab my
• 1:11:50
  shit and I'm getting out the door. But yeah, I think that
• 1:11:54
  there's that, I think, on a broader scale, as far as, like,
• 1:11:59
  weddings, I keep coming, I come back to like, do I want to
• 1:12:03
  continue to focus on this?
• 1:12:06
  Raymond Hatfield: What would be the alternative?
• 1:12:09
  Casey Fatchett: I don't know. I is in the photography world. I
• 1:12:13
  would like to try to start like, I do commercial work, corporate
• 1:12:18
  work. I do corporate headshots and events, and I think part of
• 1:12:25
  that would be to try to get more of that, because it usually
• 1:12:30
  tends to be more regular work, and it's not quite as much of
• 1:12:35
  you selling yourself all the time. And I think that maybe is
• 1:12:40
  the fatigue that like, not only in decisions, like decision
• 1:12:46
  making, like, what am I going to do? What's this next step with
• 1:12:50
  it tends to become like, I have a friend who does it
• 1:12:52
  exclusively, but he's traveling all over the world to their
• 1:12:57
  various offices for shoots and like shooting, like real estate,
• 1:13:02
  like the offices and, you know, the campus or whatever business.
• 1:13:07
  And I couldn't deal with, like, constant traveling that he does,
• 1:13:10
  no but I could deal with like doing, here's my three days of
• 1:13:16
  headshots that I do every few weeks. Or, you know, here's my,
• 1:13:21
  like, corporate events that I'm doing. I think I'm not like
• 1:13:24
  saying I want to totally get out of weddings, but I feel like I
• 1:13:27
  need to transition into more other things, because, like,
• 1:13:30
  it's that whole creatively, I will maybe need to be doing
• 1:13:35
  something else, because I am not having those. Aha. This is a
• 1:13:39
  project I want to work on. This is a photo I want to take. This
• 1:13:42
  is a thing like, thing like, maybe there are things that I
• 1:13:44
  need to do from the business side. Creatively. Is a whole
• 1:13:49
  other question. Like, what do I do creatively? Create projects
• 1:13:54
  for myself and find the time, but you need to make the money
• 1:13:56
  to be able to pay the bills. Yes? So, yeah, transitioning
• 1:14:00
  maybe to more of the corporate work, just because it's a little
• 1:14:06
  less of the feeling like it's, uh, I'm constantly on the social
• 1:14:11
  media to make things happen. So that's just my thought. I don't
• 1:14:17
  know where you where do you think you would want to go other
• 1:14:20
  than the wedding world.
• 1:14:23
  Raymond Hatfield: So, you know, as I kind of said earlier, like
• 1:14:30
  the the thing that I loved most about photography, getting into
• 1:14:32
  it, was the creative freedom that I had, personally, right?
• 1:14:37
  And even though at a wedding, you can kind of do your own
• 1:14:39
  thing and photograph it however you want. There's still this
• 1:14:43
  element of like, I do have to shoot for this couple. I have to
• 1:14:47
  produce what it is that they want. You know, I don't remember
• 1:14:51
  who it was. I remember listening to, it was a blog post. I don't,
• 1:14:54
  I don't even remember, so I'm not going to try to say what it
• 1:14:57
  was, but I remember hearing of a photographer. Who was like, I
• 1:15:01
  want my couples to know that, like, I could just show up to
• 1:15:05
  their wedding and just take photos of people's shoes all
• 1:15:07
  day, you know, like, whatever I find interesting. And I was
• 1:15:10
  like, wow, that is that has to be like, peak creative, you
• 1:15:17
  know, not decision, but just like, create peak creative mode
• 1:15:20
  in your brain to be able to just like, see something and decide
• 1:15:24
  to go all in on a project at that moment, regardless of
• 1:15:27
  what's going on around you, right? Not that they would
• 1:15:29
  necessarily. But I love that idea, and I feel like I hadn't
• 1:15:33
  been able to get that through my wedding photography, no matter
• 1:15:37
  how much I tried. And because I always felt, I always felt like,
• 1:15:42
  and this was probably on me, but like, I wanted my couples to, I
• 1:15:45
  didn't want my couples to ever feel like, Oh, this one's a
• 1:15:48
  little too creative. We were really hoping for something, you
• 1:15:52
  know, a little more standard, like, I wanted to deliver what
• 1:15:54
  it was that they wanted. And it was, you know, in wedding
• 1:15:57
  photography, we there's kind of the standard of what wedding
• 1:15:59
  photography is, and there's a little bit of play within that,
• 1:16:02
  but I still wanted to be somewhere within that. But going
• 1:16:05
  forward, as far as figuring out what it is that I want to do, I
• 1:16:08
  think a lot of it is so another person who I interviewed on the
• 1:16:13
  podcast. His name is Scott strazzy, and I probably
• 1:16:16
  reference him all the time, but he is a he's one of the staff
• 1:16:21
  photographers for the San Francisco Chronicle. Before he
• 1:16:23
  moved out to San Francisco, he was, I believe, at the Chicago
• 1:16:26
  Tribune. And as a photojournalist, as you said,
• 1:16:30
  you know, you kind of have to go out and be this, this
• 1:16:32
  generalist. But what he does is he finds a way to create long
• 1:16:37
  term projects within that so one of his first long term projects
• 1:16:41
  is something. He has a book. I bought the book. It is so
• 1:16:43
  amazing. It's called common ground. He was on assignment one
• 1:16:46
  day where he had to go photograph a farm local to him
• 1:16:50
  in Chicago, you know, and just see what it was like to life on
• 1:16:52
  the farm. And he's like, this is interesting. Maybe I'll come
• 1:16:55
  back next month and take a few more photos. Well, he ended up
• 1:16:58
  doing this, I believe, for like 10 years, like documenting this,
• 1:17:01
  this couple, and then they were getting old, and they're like,
• 1:17:04
  we're going to sell the farm to a land developer, and they were
• 1:17:08
  going to put up a subdivision like, right there on that, on
• 1:17:11
  their farmland. So he then documented the growth of this
• 1:17:15
  subdivision, and where the original couple's house was he,
• 1:17:21
  like, he found that couple and said, like, Hey, can I, can I
• 1:17:25
  document, you know, your life in this house every once in a
• 1:17:29
  while? Wow, like, an amazing idea that I, you know, I would
• 1:17:32
  never think of. And he just does these really interesting
• 1:17:36
  projects all the time that obviously, you know, they take
• 1:17:38
  time and they take effort, but they're not all, they're not all
• 1:17:42
  the same, you know, like they're not all shot in the same style.
• 1:17:46
  They're not all, they don't all follow the same story structure.
• 1:17:50
  Everything that he does, he does one project where he has another
• 1:17:53
  book called shoot from the hip. I'm sure this sounds like a
• 1:17:56
  plug, but it's not. Is just
• 1:17:58
  Casey Fatchett: a sales of his books.
• 1:18:01
  Raymond Hatfield: You can him on Instagram. It is. Instagram, but
• 1:18:04
  his other book, called cheat from the hip is just photos that
• 1:18:09
  he took on his phone with the hipster Matic app. And he is and
• 1:18:13
  it's all street photography, essentially in San Francisco.
• 1:18:17
  Casey Fatchett: Wait and he did? He follow the darkness.
• 1:18:21
  Raymond Hatfield: I don't you mean the band, yeah,
• 1:18:25
  Casey Fatchett: because somebody followed them for a little
• 1:18:28
  while, like, because hipster Matic was in, was in San
• 1:18:34
  Francisco, and when, like, the darkest was coming out, was
• 1:18:36
  doing in, like, new tour, and this, like, peak hypstamatic
• 1:18:41
  era, and somebody like went on tour with them for like a week
• 1:18:46
  or two weeks, and only shot photos with Hipstamatic
• 1:18:50
  Raymond Hatfield: Wow, that is a cool idea. Let's see it. I think
• 1:18:58
  this could be wrong here, but I think it was a photographer?
• 1:19:01
  Nope. There's like 19 photographers listed here, so
• 1:19:03
  I'm not even gonna try to name one of them, but yeah, that's an
• 1:19:06
  interesting idea. I don't think that it was Scott. I'm
• 1:19:08
  definitely
• 1:19:08
  Casey Fatchett: gonna have to check that out. Yeah, it was, it
• 1:19:10
  was interesting. I was like, oh, that's kind of a cool idea,
• 1:19:12
  because I enjoyed the the concept of hips thematic. I was
• 1:19:15
  like, Oh, this is kind of, it's kind of a it gives you some
• 1:19:19
  creative control, but not all of it.
• 1:19:21
  Raymond Hatfield: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And that's, you know,
• 1:19:24
  that was kind of the point here, is that, like, he spends all of
• 1:19:26
  his days, you know, doing the work as a photojournalist,
• 1:19:30
  making sure that images are correct and well lit and all
• 1:19:33
  these things. And now he's giving up all this creative
• 1:19:35
  control. He's like, and he's shooting from the hip, like,
• 1:19:38
  keeps the camera at his hip as well, doesn't look through it,
• 1:19:42
  and just takes these photos, which I thought was interesting.
• 1:19:44
  And I think it's doing something like that, like continuing to do
• 1:19:47
  interesting like projects that interest me. So I love baseball.
• 1:19:53
  I love the Dodgers. They're going to the World Series this
• 1:19:55
  year. They're going to win, which is so phenomenal. I'm so
• 1:19:57
  excited for that. But. But, you know, I've had these ideas of,
• 1:20:02
  like, you know, documenting every basically, following them
• 1:20:07
  around the country, like, to all of their games that they go to,
• 1:20:09
  and documenting different stadiums. I love baseball
• 1:20:13
  stadiums. I think that in Cincinnati, the great American
• 1:20:15
  ballpark is one of the most beautiful stadiums I've ever
• 1:20:18
  been to, you know, and it's not Dodger related, but trying to
• 1:20:21
  figure out something there. But again, it all comes back to
• 1:20:24
  figuring out how to monetize that as well. So it's like, Are
• 1:20:27
  these going to be books? Is am I going to create my own, you
• 1:20:31
  know, NFT crypto coin? And, you know, selling that episode
• 1:20:36
  probably not gonna go that way. It's all in the creative ideas,
• 1:20:41
  and again, that's where decision fatigue comes in. So for now,
• 1:20:47
  I'm still shooting a few weddings, and in the future,
• 1:20:49
  that's going to shift somehow, and I'll have to keep you
• 1:20:53
  updated.
• 1:20:54
  Casey Fatchett: I look forward to it, yeah. I mean, it's
• 1:20:56
  finding those things that keep the fire burning within you. I
• 1:21:01
  think that that's, that's something I'm this for me in
• 1:21:06
  some ways, and like, also, like, the telling of the stories like
• 1:21:08
  that is something that, like, creatively, I want to, I feel an
• 1:21:12
  urge to pass on to other photographers. Is the sense of
• 1:21:18
  everything doesn't have to be technical, yes, doesn't have to
• 1:21:24
  there have there needs to be thought and emotion and things
• 1:21:30
  behind these photos. Don't just try to, like, copy somebody's
• 1:21:35
  settings and things like that. But I was, you're it's funny,
• 1:21:39
  because I interviewed Peter Hurley a while back. Yeah, I
• 1:21:43
  don't know if you listen the it was, yeah, when he talks about,
• 1:21:46
  like, shooting for the NFL, immediately, when you said that,
• 1:21:50
  I was like, what I thought of? I was like, yeah, it's totally
• 1:21:52
  different, yeah, something completely different than what
• 1:21:55
  he normally does. And just, you know, like, it's, it's an, you
• 1:21:59
  know, 180 degree. Difference from what he shoots day in and
• 1:22:07
  day out. And I think that that's probably why he enjoys it so
• 1:22:10
  much. But yeah, like that, he still makes money from the
• 1:22:13
  headshots Exactly, exactly. He doesn't have to worry about the
• 1:22:16
  like and then, oh, Peter doesn't listen to this. But it kind of
• 1:22:22
  pissed me out. I'm like, Yeah, sure, great that you got a job
• 1:22:24
  with the Washington commanders off of like, some buddy of
• 1:22:30
  yours, like, letting you down on the sideline like you needed it.
• 1:22:38
  But you know, good for him. And that's, that's, I guess, what
• 1:22:42
  you get when you're like a Canon explorer of light, or whatever
• 1:22:46
  you get.
• 1:22:47
  Raymond Hatfield: Let me ask you another question. Have you?
• 1:22:49
  Would you ever consider, like, taking a job as a photographer,
• 1:22:55
  like for a company? Like, if you could find a company that would
• 1:22:59
  be like, hey, you know, you come in, you work for us internally,
• 1:23:04
  but like, would still give you that creative element? Would you
• 1:23:09
  do?
• 1:23:09
  Casey Fatchett: It possibly depends on that. Yeah, it really
• 1:23:12
  depends on, like, what those creative freedoms that you have?
• 1:23:16
  And like, what am I doing? Who's the company? Do I morally feel
• 1:23:24
  like that? I can do this day in, day out for one person? Yeah. I
• 1:23:28
  mean, that would defend that's an interesting offer, and it's a
• 1:23:34
  yeah, that's, that's something that I have not considered. But,
• 1:23:40
  I mean, my initial reaction would be, yes, I would do that.
• 1:23:43
  Raymond Hatfield: Yeah, yeah, which is so funny. I feel the
• 1:23:46
  same way. I feel the same way. And I think it's, I have a I
• 1:23:49
  have a friend. His name is Chris Owens, and he is the photo
• 1:23:55
  director, photo manager for the Indianapolis Motor Speedway,
• 1:23:59
  which hosts the Indy 500 so he technically works for Indy car.
• 1:24:04
  So he literally travels to every race photographs it. And it's
• 1:24:08
  not meat and potatoes photos. I mean, it is really creative
• 1:24:12
  stuff that I look at and just think, like, these, phone, this
• 1:24:16
  in, you know, these photos of like, driver gets into car,
• 1:24:19
  driver puts on helmet. Driver, drives fast, you know, but no,
• 1:24:23
  like, he's really taking his time, and he's very creative
• 1:24:25
  with it. And I think it was seeing that that made me think,
• 1:24:29
  wow, if, if there was a position out there that I could find, I
• 1:24:34
  think I would be open to that door despite all of these, you
• 1:24:38
  know, years of being told you got to have, you know, you got
• 1:24:42
  to be entrepreneurial. You got to go out and you got to do your
• 1:24:44
  own thing. You got to, you know, be your own boss and stick it to
• 1:24:47
  the man or whatever. And I thought, I think I might like a
• 1:24:51
  position like that, but I don't know,
• 1:24:53
  Casey Fatchett: because I think the, well, here's this question
• 1:24:55
  for you, do you think that's because of the it takes away the
• 1:24:57
  decision part of the job? Up and it takes away some of the
• 1:25:02
  elements depends on what you're doing, like the promotional
• 1:25:09
  aspect of your of the job, when you're running your own
• 1:25:13
  business, then maybe that is taking away some of that
• 1:25:16
  decision, because there are times when I have had the
• 1:25:18
  feeling of, like, do I you know, do I do start there might be
• 1:25:23
  some joy. And just like being a construction worker, it's that
• 1:25:27
  it's like a Good Will Hunting moment. Just like, oh, you know,
• 1:25:32
  I just want to, like, show up and do my job, go home at five
• 1:25:36
  o'clock, but then I really, like, do the soul searching. And
• 1:25:40
  you're like, No, I need to do something creative. But I
• 1:25:46
  totally get where you're coming from with the like, would you
• 1:25:48
  take the job and just like, so I don't have to, so I don't have
• 1:25:52
  to do the business running of it, and I'm just sort of free.
• 1:25:58
  There's a freedom there too. There's a freedom to create the
• 1:26:03
  images that you know the business wants. That's a really
• 1:26:08
  listeners, we you take the other number, well, AI, we're all of
• 1:26:15
  our days are numbered. They're going to be creating images.
• 1:26:22
  Listeners, maybe take that little thought exercise. Would
• 1:26:25
  you take a job as as a photographer for a business?
• 1:26:28
  Think about this. We're gonna have to like a I'm going to come
• 1:26:31
  back to you on the the baseball project, and when you mentioned
• 1:26:38
  the Dodgers off Mike, my first thought was, I grew up in
• 1:26:42
  Michigan and was a Tigers fan, and you were talking about,
• 1:26:47
  like, dodgers World Series. My immediate Dodgers World Series
• 1:26:50
  image is Kurt Gibson running the bases after the home run is
• 1:26:54
  like, yeah. How many? Yeah? The such an iconic moment. And it's
• 1:27:00
  those sort of things, like the experience of it is paramount to
• 1:27:09
  the photo, because the photos of those things, and you can see
• 1:27:12
  these photos, like, of those moments, yeah, like Gibson,
• 1:27:15
  like, pump in the arm, yeah. It takes you back. It's those
• 1:27:21
  things that really take you back to the moment. Look at the
• 1:27:24
  experience and how you're feeling, and that's maybe like
• 1:27:28
  that. That is something that I try to capture in any of my
• 1:27:31
  pictures, whether it's for a wedding or for other things, so
• 1:27:35
  that you get that emotional again, emotional response. It it
• 1:27:41
  has a deeper effect on you than just a snapshot.
• 1:27:47
  Raymond Hatfield: It's just, I mean, ultimately, that's what I
• 1:27:50
  hope my kids feel when they look at their photos, when I'm old,
• 1:27:54
  you know, when they're old, when they look at their photos, I
• 1:27:56
  hope that that's how they feel, like, wow. Like our childhood
• 1:27:59
  was pretty cool, you know, based on, based on these photos,
• 1:28:03
  Casey Fatchett: yeah, that's all we can help. I think that's a
• 1:28:06
  that's a good hope. It's a good place to wrap up.
• 1:28:15
  Hey, there, listeners. Have you ever tried audible? You might be
• 1:28:19
  thinking to yourself that it's just audio books, but it's so
• 1:28:22
  much more. It includes things like sleep tracks, meditation
• 1:28:25
  programs, podcasts like the one you're listening to right now.
• 1:28:28
  You like listening to stuff right and much, much more. I've
• 1:28:31
  had a lot of people tell me that I should get into narrating
• 1:28:34
  audio books. Maybe I'll give it a shot. Whether I do or not, you
• 1:28:38
  can get a free 30 day trial to Audible Premium Plus or three
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  months if you are an Amazon Prime member, if you head to
• 1:28:46
  nerdy photographer comm slash recommends slash audible, get
• 1:28:50
  access to audibles entire catalog of bestsellers and new
• 1:28:53
  releases. What are you waiting for? Click in the Episode Notes
• 1:28:56
  and hit that link and start your free trial today. You
• 1:29:04
  Hey, and now for my favorite part of the show, what's that?
• 1:29:10
  Say? Useless information. This is always death.
• 1:29:14
  The average person in their lifetime walks by 36 murderers.
• 1:29:24
  Raymond Hatfield: How do we know that just averages, just the law
• 1:29:28
  of averages,
• 1:29:29
  Casey Fatchett: in your whole lifetime, in your How many think
• 1:29:34
  Raymond Hatfield: you've walked by so far? Oh, more than that.
• 1:29:37
  You think you can identify them?
• 1:29:39
  Casey Fatchett: No, but I'd say more than that. I don't know.
• 1:29:41
  It's just, I've got a got a feeling. Got a feeling.
• 1:29:44
  Raymond Hatfield: There's like, we always see those mug shots,
• 1:29:46
  you know, and you think to yourself, Well, yeah, look at
• 1:29:48
  the dude.
• 1:29:49
  Casey Fatchett: Sure he killed somebody. Yeah, I don't know
• 1:29:54
  there are some where, but I've also run into people who you
• 1:29:57
  would probably immediately thought had. It, and then you're
• 1:30:00
  like, No teddy bear. And there are other people who like, I'm
• 1:30:06
  pretty sure, yes, at least one person. At least killed one
• 1:30:10
  person. I don't know that's just my own experiences. A living in
• 1:30:15
  New York City for a long period of time and having visited the
• 1:30:21
  world's largest walled prison in South Central
• 1:30:25
  Raymond Hatfield: your number is much higher. All right, so you
• 1:30:27
  have skewed that number for the rest of us who don't go to prisons,
• 1:30:31
  Casey Fatchett: yeah, just don't happen to, like, visit prison.
• 1:30:35
  Yeah, that's a I don't know. I think that. I think that there
• 1:30:40
  are some that I could maybe pick out, and some of them, and they
• 1:30:43
  aren't like the like, hulking monster, it's the maybe, the
• 1:30:47
  more the psychological.
• 1:30:50
  Raymond Hatfield: Yeah, you know exactly who I'm thinking of. He
• 1:30:54
  lives right across the street. It's very scary.
• 1:30:56
  Casey Fatchett: Yeah, there's a guy that I used to work for when
• 1:30:59
  I still had an office job. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want to
• 1:31:04
  check his basement. He was literally the whitest man ever
• 1:31:10
  seen as his his mustache and beard like it was almost like a
• 1:31:16
  translucent he had a little mustache, but it was so white
• 1:31:19
  that it was almost translucent. So when you looked at him, you
• 1:31:23
  weren't sure if he had a mustache. No, yeah, oh yeah. It
• 1:31:27
  was weird. And he was, like, very pale. He would write
• 1:31:30
  poetry, beautiful and, like, not just just weird. And like, bring
• 1:31:38
  it to work. Yes, you'd bring it to work in a little self
• 1:31:43
  published, I think a little booklet. I was like, this dude,
• 1:31:45
  this dude is definitely a serial killer.
• 1:31:49
  Raymond Hatfield: It's one thing to keep poetry to yourself, but
• 1:31:50
  wow, you bring that to work.
• 1:31:52
  Casey Fatchett: You bring it to work and read it to your
• 1:31:55
  subordinates. Yeah, here's a free copy of my poetry book. No,
• 1:32:00
  no, thank you. I would rather not have my fingerprints on this
• 1:32:03
  in case it becomes evidence one day. That's terrifying. Yeah,
• 1:32:07
  Raymond, thank you very much for coming on. I really appreciate
• 1:32:10
  where can people find you and the beginner photography
• 1:32:12
  podcast?
• 1:32:13
  Raymond Hatfield: Yeah, well, if you're listening to this, you're
• 1:32:16
  listening to a podcast right now, unless this is syndicated,
• 1:32:19
  in which case you got huge checks coming your way? Yeah, so
• 1:32:24
  the beginner photography podcast. So I started, it's
• 1:32:27
  funny, I started the beginner photography podcast kind of like
• 1:32:30
  what we started talking about earlier. Since I went to film
• 1:32:33
  school and not photography school, I always kind of felt
• 1:32:36
  like this huge fraud in the world of photography, and this
• 1:32:40
  was just a way for me to be able to connect with notable
• 1:32:43
  photographers and kind of figure out how they see the world. So
• 1:32:47
  even though the name is beginner photography podcast, it is very
• 1:32:50
  much interview based like this. And again, I just really want to
• 1:32:53
  know how people see the world. Upcoming, we have some huge
• 1:32:57
  interviews that I'm really excited for. One that I just
• 1:32:59
  recorded yesterday was with Pete Souza, who I'd been trying to
• 1:33:02
  get on the podcast since 2016 when I sent him a link with a
• 1:33:07
  typo in it, and he couldn't book a time and he never responded to
• 1:33:11
  my emails after that. So that was embarrassing. So always, you
• 1:33:14
  know, spell check your emails. That's, that's it. That's, maybe
• 1:33:17
  that's the lesson that is learned. That's my biggest
• 1:33:19
  lesson. That's a good lesson, but yeah, so you can find,
• 1:33:23
  obviously, the beginner photography podcast in all of
• 1:33:26
  your favorite podcast places. And I'm not really on Instagram,
• 1:33:31
  I'm not on Tiktok, I'm not on Facebook. So I would say, check
• 1:33:36
  out the podcast.
• 1:33:37
  Casey Fatchett: Definitely go check out the podcast. I'll
• 1:33:39
  include a link here in the Episode Notes, you can guys find
• 1:33:43
  that Raymond, a pleasure. Definitely want to have you back
• 1:33:47
  at some point. We'll have to work that out.
• 1:33:50
  Raymond Hatfield: Of course. Casey, this was so much fun. We
• 1:33:52
  talked about so many things I was not expecting today, and it
• 1:33:54
  was a it was a pleasure.
• 1:34:02
  Casey Fatchett: And we're back many thanks to Raymond Hatfield
• 1:34:05
  from the beginner photography podcast for coming on the show.
• 1:34:09
  You can find the beginner photography podcast wherever you
• 1:34:13
  get your podcasts. Check out those pretty awesome interviews
• 1:34:17
  that he was talking about on his show. While you're at it, be
• 1:34:21
  sure to subscribe and leave a review for the nerdy
• 1:34:24
  photographer Podcast, the podcast that you're listening to
• 1:34:28
  right now. It's all me over here, folks, I make all the
• 1:34:32
  decisions and do all the work. There's no team of producers or
• 1:34:36
  marketing people. So this show only grows if you spread the
• 1:34:40
  word by leaving reviews or telling other people that they
• 1:34:44
  should listen. You can also find the nerdy photographer on social
• 1:34:48
  media at the nerdy photo that's at the nerdy photo on Instagram,
• 1:34:52
  tick tock and Twitter. I'm going to be doing some live Q and A's
• 1:34:56
  on social media, so be sure to follow along. I feel like there
• 1:35:01
  was something else I needed to do. There was a decision you
• 1:35:04
  needed to make. Oh, yeah. Why do I always have to choose the
• 1:35:08
  lunch order? Because you and golden hour are the only beings
• 1:35:12
  on this ship who require food, and he will literally eat
• 1:35:16
  anything. Yeah, snug. Fair enough. It's Taco Time. Snug.
• 1:35:20
  Until next time, everybody, stay safe and stay nerdy
• 1:35:33
  Unknown: