Latest / Complex Kids, Simple Solutions / Season 2- Episode 2 Michelle and Kimares Pomares

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Season 2- Episode 2 Michelle and Kimares Pomares · Complex Kids, Simple Solutions

• Michelle Choairy: Hello everyone, welcome back to Complex Kids Simple Solutions. So excited to be here today with Kimares Pomaris and I said it wrong and I practiced it before. But anyway, it's really good to have him because I met him many years ago and this is full circle. Welcome Kim. Kim - Mendability: It's great to be back. Michelle Choairy: Yeah, here's the thing. I remember the first time that I was expecting a woman coming on when we first met. And then it was a man, and I was like, is Kim coming on? And it was actually him. So he's got a different name, but he's amazing. And he actually helped me with my Thrive program. And I don't think that I ever told him this. But he told me that when I was teaching and going through your on your episode that I was on, I was talking about Thrive. And you said the E on Thrive should be expect a miracle. And I that stayed with me, so I actually changed it to that. So thanks to you, Thrive is the E is Expect a Miracle. So anyway, welcome. Yes. Kim - Mendability: that's lovely. I didn't know. Michelle Choairy: Yeah, it's all your fault. No, Kim - Mendability: I'll take I'll take the blame. I'm okay with that. Michelle Choairy: it was great. It was great. So, Kim, you guys are doing some crazy work, it sounds like, just by what we were talking about a little earlier. So, tell us what you're doing, what you do amendability. Tell us a little bit about what you and your mom kind of started, because I know you do this with your mom. And it's actually very interesting. So I wanted to make sure that my listeners got a little snip of what of you guys are doing. Kim - Mendability: Yeah. so I I need to give all the credit to my mother for for the work that we were doing, 'cause I didn't begin in this. I got sucked into it. I didn't believe in it. but she's the one who developed this unusual approach. And it I should probably start stop saying unusual because now there's study after study showing the the effectiveness of of the approach that we've selected. It's a subset of environmental enrichment. And it's just this idea that the brain will change the way it works, it'll change the way it grows depending on the experiences that it has. And so you can craft experiences to direct where you want a surge of activity and growth to happen and how you want the brain to learn to rehabilitate around certain skills, around certain experiences. And so it started as a brain. I hesitate to say brain repair, but it it's it's an oversimplification. But Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: a brain a treatment program for neurological conditions, but we've narrowed and and and been focusing lately on childhood neurological conditions, especially autism. And so now we've got clinical studies around autism and things like that. so so yeah, the idea is that the brain is plastic and it can change and you can have an influence on how it changes. Michelle Choairy: Well, I think so if people are saying that this is crazy, to me it's not crazy at all. Like we evolve, like our brains do change, right? Thank goodness that our brains change. And so I I think that this I mean if somebody doesn't believe in it, I'm sorry you guys should be believing in it. That's what I But we 'cause we do. We do change. Our brains change. The kids' brains change. They grow, right? I I don't know. Kim - Mendability: No, the raise w I tilted my head because I said, Why we don't have too many people not believing in it. Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: if we have people not believing in it, it's the idea that it's too good to be true, too simple. How could something so so simple have such a powerful impact? And even our clients, when they sign on, you know, they go on faith, they go on hope, they love what we have to say, it makes sense, and they just they are all in. And then, you know, a month later they they they admit to us. I have to tell you, I really did not believe that something as simple as the games that we do as a family every day for 10 minutes would have such a power that the powerful impact that they've observed. so Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: that this is where sometimes the disconnect is because you expect because you're used, you know, when you have a speech delay or a speech problem, then you go to see a speech therapist and it's an hour session and it's and it's weeks and months to get a tiny little bit of of something, right? And it's the same with most traditional approaches. And so when we come in and say, no, in six months it's realistic to expect this kind of transformation, that that's it it's it's it's unusual. That's the unusual aspect Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: of it. Michelle Choairy: Okay, so tell us about those transformations and then we're gonna go back. So let's let's talk about it and then we're gonna come back and what you do, what you guys Kim - Mendability: Mm. Michelle Choairy: came up with. So what kind of transformations are the family seeing? Because I think that it's important to to me like it's always important to work backwards. So what is it that Kim - Mendability: Do you want the the par the deep okay, cause you have to work on this. It's something that the parents have to do. And Michelle Choairy: Okay. Sure. Kim - Mendability: and and and we've have some parents who would and it's possible to do it wrong. That's what I'm trying to say. And and and when you do it wrong, it's slow. but when Michelle Choairy: Okay. Kim - Mendability: you do it well, and so I want to share off course, you know, on the parents who did it well. Michelle Choairy: Sure. Kim - Mendability: the parents who strapped the equipment to the top of their car when they went on holiday to make sure they would never lose momentum. Because it it's a it's a question Michelle Choairy: Mm. Kim - Mendability: of momentum. You you're nudging the brain constantly. and Michelle Choairy: Okay. Kim - Mendability: and and if it wanted to go there, it would have gone there. So you're you're making it go in a place that it it doesn't think it should be going. And so so you can there's that constant nudge and you need it's you need to it's a consistent thing. You can miss a day Michelle Choairy: You gotta work on it. You gotta work on it. Kim - Mendability: Yeah, and yeah. So you know, we've got the the the the story that we're the most famous for, I think, is the one where the girl went and did a pot not podcast, TEDx talk Michelle Choairy: Okay. Kim - Mendability: with her dad. she started the program when she was, you know, eight, nine years old, non-speaking. Pretty calm behavior-wise, but diagnosed with autism and learning disability and and and she's really cool. In the TED Talk, she describes what it felt like to be asked questions and Michelle Choairy: Vot. Kim - Mendability: how she really wanted to write answer the question, but she she was working so hard. And by the time she came up with one way of communicating the answer to that particular question, people had moved on to something else, right? Because we're talking Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: about a process that in in took her maybe an hour to complete and we want the answer right now, right? So it's pretty cool how she describes her experience. But she ended, Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: you know, in her resume now, in she you can list, she's you can see that she was a director of communications for one Michelle Choairy: Mm. Kim - Mendability: of the largest consultation firms. And she's not the diversity hire. Right? They hired her because she was the best at the job when she was interviewed to to become the director of communications for one of the consulting firms on the West Coast. So that's a that's that's a cool story, right? That's that's that's Michelle Choairy: That's awesome. That's the cool story, yes. Kim - Mendability: your TED talk worthy. Most of the families, you know, they come to us and they'll go. So in six months, how to describe this? And this is where my Geekiness comes through is I love spreadsheets. And so I'm gonna talk in terms of spreadsheets and averages. And we score everybody on a scale of zero to five for all of their skills. So if if Michelle Choairy: Okay. Kim - Mendability: we say if we stick to the let's not use speech because I've let's say tantrums, the number of meltdowns per day, right? So five Michelle Choairy: Okay. Okay. Kim - Mendability: would be a meltdown once a week is normal. Everybody has a meltdown. And zero would be you're in a coma, you're in a hospital, impossible to have a meltdown. So really one is your like meltdowns four or five times a day and they last an hour and they're destructive and there's a lot of violence and anger, right? Okay, so that's your so everybody scores Michelle Choairy: Okay. Okay. Kim - Mendability: on on on that scale. And so in six months, everybody should expect to go up by one point on that scale. So if you start at five times a day ver a violent, it'll last an hour, then the next level up from that would be two a day and they're allowed they're not allowed. They're now like five to ten minutes, right? And then you Michelle Choairy: Okay. Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: you progress that way. Michelle Choairy: Okay. Okay. You know, I keep thinking, as soon as you said five tantrums a day, I was like, We used to have that. We used to have it at my house. Now, you know, still have we s we still have the moments with my son. But he's twelve now. And I think maturity, even though he's still very delayed, you know, cognitively delayed, the maturity it has gotten better. And I think we and you know, I actually want to hear from you about this because for him. But we got to a point where, you know, I think that the meds have been helping also. We were able to change some things out and it it really has helped with his anxiety and things like that. But it is a he is verbal. He, you know, he's he doesn't have autism. He has a rare genetic disorder called TBR1. So that's, you know, it's a little different. You do get some autistic traits and things like that. But we Kim - Mendability: Mm. Michelle Choairy: did struggle with behavior and we still do. To this day, he goes to an intensive outpatient program twice a week where we work on that, where he works on it. So I would love to hear. So what does this look like when you sign up for this, for what you guys are doing? What does it look like? Kim - Mendability: Well, some of it is very typical. You know, you start with an assessment and you spend some time with a program director and you'll run some tests at home and you'll send videos to be evaluated, that kind of stuff. And then there's that final interview where Claudie says, This is this is the bits that this is what I see. And and then in six months, I think we should be able to expect that we're gonna be over here. This is how I would approach what I see. So you can take that and and go somewhere else if you want. but the the assessment and then the first set of exercises is so simple. The sense of smell and a sense of touch are the two most fundamental sensory systems when it comes to influencing brain development. They're the first ones who develop in the womb. They're the they they also the ones that have the most clinical data with all sorts of animals and humans. Showing that when you pair smell and touch at the same time, you have a wonderful event. I call it an elevated state of neuroplasticity. It's basically triggering the mechanisms of self-repair and growth in the brain. And you can do that on demand. And we do that whether the kid is three months old, 13 years old, or 93. We've had, you know, we've done Michelle Choairy: Hmm. Kim - Mendability: this with people with dementia and Parkinson's and things like that. And It's true that the brain is less and less plastic with age, but it's not because it loses the ability to change. It's because it loses the reason to change. When you're a kid, you're Michelle Choairy: Mm. Kim - Mendability: curious, everything's new, and you're excited, and gradu gradually you start eating the same stuff and wearing the same stuff and doing the same things. And so the brain stops being super plastic, but you can re-engage, turn back on that engine on demand through combining a lovely smell. So on my desk. I have my favorite IKEA candle, and some people are going to cringe because this is probably the most chemical thing you've ever seen in your life, because it Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: still smells after seven years of being on my desk. Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: but when you know the power it has on the brain, and even there's some studies now showing that some smells have an impact on the immune system, and so you lower your anyway, this is a whole other thing, but to us. The benefits far outweigh the disadvantages. And so, and of Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: course, I don't have anything to worry about in terms of being exposed to this. So, but anyway, pleasant smell. And then where's my back scratcher? Right here. Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. What is it? What is the smell? What's the smell? Kim - Mendability: well, the candle sales says Sinlig. it's probably not even sold in the stores anymore, but it's just like a b mixed berry. Michelle Choairy: Okay. Okay. Kim - Mendability: works every time. But you can do it with anything that you like. It could be Michelle Choairy: Uh-huh. Kim - Mendability: do you have a mug of do you have coffee somewhere on your desk or a hot chocolate or anything that smells Michelle Choairy: I have a diadra pepper, a big gulp. So Kim - Mendability: Well, then I guess you're not worried about chemicals either, are you? Michelle Choairy: My my body is just I it's it's my it's so bad. Kim - Mendability: Hey, if I'm gonna have a soda, Dr. Pepper it is, I totally get it. Michelle Choairy: It's it's my Diadoctor Pepper. I go to seven eleven every day and I get my Diadoctor Pepper, okay? It's like my coffee for the day. I don't drink coffee. Kim - Mendability: So you smell that, and it probably has that prune sweet smell, right? I don't know. It Michelle Choairy: Mm Kim - Mendability: does smell. Michelle Choairy: I don't know. Let's smell. Yeah, it has a little bit of a sweet Okay. Okay. Kim - Mendability: Okay, so so while you're smelling that, somebody comes and gives you the perfect back rub, but if you don't have that person, then you do it to yourself with a thing. And Michelle Choairy: okay. Kim - Mendability: so the so smell has will trigger a release of dopamine and it's reward, it's motivation, it's it's memory, it's learning, it ha it's involved in lots of things like movement. Like Parkinson's is basically your brain stops producing dopamine. And so the muscles that Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: are meant to move all the time, and dopamine tells them to stop moving and control the movement, then there's no more Michelle Choairy: Mm. Kim - Mendability: dopamine to control the muscles. And so the muscles do what they're supposed to be doing, which is moving all the time. Anyway, so smell gives you an a a shot of dopamine, and then touch gives you a boost of serotonin. And serotonin is what makes you feel calm and in control and helps you learn and makes you feel the world is not so bad, that kind of stuff, helps you sleep. Also, Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: it's it helps do almost everything. And if it doesn't do it directly, it controls the hormone that does it directly. So it's a really important one. So just melt just those two. But when you combine them, they have that third event. And it's accompanied by a release of norepinephrine. So another brain hormone. And and that's That's what we believe is the sign that the brain is now. Okay, tell me, what have you got for me to learn? What have you got me what have you got for me to change? It's it's the hormone that the brain uses when it's trying to concentrate on something really hard, right? So so then that's super simple. That that's that's your worksheet for Michelle Choairy: Okay. So y yes. Kim - Mendability: like the week. That's all you have to do. It it sounds simple, but really they have to build a new habit. And that's so that's why we don't give them too many things to do, and they're super simple and they're s pleasure Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: based. You basically have to find the smell that the kid likes. And if he's non-speaking, you just give him a couple to test, right? And Michelle Choairy: Uh-huh. Kim - Mendability: gradually, body language, you get hula, he really liked that one, right? and Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: then same with touch. Now, some kids don't like to be touched, so that's a whole other thing. So we can use them, some textures for them to explore, but some kind of tactile activity that they'll respond to. By relaxing. Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: We don't want to tickle them. We don't want to aggravate them or anything like that. So sometimes Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: you have to modify and okay, so most kids will end up with some combination of smell and touch. And the idea is you want them to build a new habit. What time of day is the best time to do it? Do you want to do it during bedtime? Do you want to do it around dinner time? Do you want to do it in the morning when they wake up? Or maybe both. And then it takes a week to get your routine. And then when you're there, then we give you some additional games to play as a family that will stimulate brain stuff. Michelle Choairy: Okay. So when you were explaining explaining the the hormones that kind of it all releases, all I could think about was that's a Prozac that you're describing right there. Right? It's it Kim - Mendability: is basically getting your brain to do its own Prozac work. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like Prozac without side effects. But sometimes so s yes, yes, totally. Totally. Michelle Choairy: Exactly. That's that's what I that's what I was saying. Yeah. But yes, yes. So is it SSRIs? Yes. Yeah. But in your way and what your body can give you, right? Kim - Mendability: Mm-hmm. And getting the brain, the more you do it, the more the brain knows how to respond to the to the stimulus. Like, this smell Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: makes me want to do dopamine. I remember last time I did that, I had this amount of dopamine. I'm gonna do just a little bit more because it feels so good. Right. Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: And so gradually you build your your brain's ability to produce and release and manage its own chemicals, Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: and then your reliance on I we we're not anti-medication. We love what medication is able to do to save people's lives. So I I'm not Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: you know, it's just we've got we've got a solution where we can gradually replace some of it, sometimes all of it, right? Again, this idea Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: of it takes work to get there, and it takes Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: somebody like my mother who understands because nobody else really does what she does in terms of getting the brain to do its own thing. Normalize brain function. She When she's always the optimistic one, I'm always the one ki you know, pulling her to a more realistic, conservative 'cause she will promise Michelle Choairy: Holding her back. Kim - Mendability: the moon to every single parent that comes. Because on paper, Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: in theory, yes, Demoon is achievable. But there's lots of things that will come in the way. And so you don't want to promise the ideal. You want to promise the realistic. So Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: and so so you know. Michelle Choairy: Okay. You know, your mom is very interesting too. Like I so if you guys didn't hear the beginning, but I met them in the my very beginning stages of trying to figure out what it was that I was going to do. I knew that I was that I had a calling to change what I I needed to change what it is that I was gonna do. And so I started my journey and they were right at the beginning of this journey. And and honestly, I I don't even I did I couldn't even remember I I thought that he couldn't remember me basically when I reached out. So because it's been a while. But like when I was in on their podcast, I learned a few things because it was very interesting with his mom was the smell and the touch. And I remember her talking about how do you stop a meltdown. I remember that. And she said, carry around like a thing of essential oil in your in your purse and you take that out and you put it on their face for them to smell and some time and that should stop them right away. The other thing too, and I actually started doing this with my son, was ice and cold. Kim - Mendability: Mm-hmm. Michelle Choairy: And so When my son starts to have it just once he starts getting to a point where I know that something is coming, I go and I get him like ice cold water. And I go, Do you need some water? And then he drinks the water. And usually he takes a couple of deep breaths and then he can calm down. But those were things that your mom taught me. And it's it's which like that's what I'm saying. It's like a full circle coming here to have you on. Because those were things that I started using and that it actually really worked with my son. So tell your mom thank you for that. But okay, I wanna go because you were telling me that you guys are starting a study with University of Wisconsin. Kim - Mendability: Wisconsin, yeah. Michelle Choairy: Okay, tell us what's going on over there. Kim - Mendability: So by the time this is released, we'll probably be underway and we'll probably be recruiting. but I don't Michelle Choairy: Okay. Kim - Mendability: know if we'll be done recruiting. I don't know, but so by the time you Michelle Choairy: Okay. Kim - Mendability: guys are listening to this, there might be an opportunity for you guys to participate if you're interested. But we're going to be doing before and after pictures of the brain. after the doing our program which we call sensory enrichment therapy, you know, I called it but environmental enrichment. So anyway. It's a subset of that. So that's Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: the name of the program. and yeah, they're gonna you you just have to be able to cause an MRI is not a pleasant experience. I don't know if any of you've had it, but it's very claustrophobic Michelle Choairy: Mm. Yeah. Kim - Mendability: and you can't move and it's super loud and it's and so imagine if you're a sensitive soul and you they were trying to put you in that machine. So It might be a struggle to find enough individuals to go through the process of having their pick their brain picture taken before and after. Michelle Choairy: Sure. Kim - Mendability: We know what parts of the brain change as a result of environmental enrichment on animals, because on animals you do the thing and then you sacrifice them, you kill them, and you slice up their brains and you look at pictures and you do that, right? And Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: you can say, this is the the br the part of the brain that is the male man that dispatches his sensory things. Michelle Choairy: So like I like I'm thinking you get the animal, you slice up their brain, you chop it up, and I was like That's true, that's how that but I don't think that I've ever heard Kim - Mendability: That's how it's done. Michelle Choairy: somebody say it that way, so it is. That is how it's done. Kim - Mendability: In the seventies, yeah, they in the seventies they determined that the best animal the best model for hum to represent the human brain was the rats brain. And so they've done all those experiments on on rats. Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: You know, I mean they're killed humanly. It's not like, you know, all the there's a touch of this don't want anybody to be s you know upset. It Michelle Choairy: Yes. I I no, I don't think that that's what it is. It was just like I don't think that I've ever heard somebody talk about how you you know, for you to study it, you slice the brain and it's true. Like that's and sorry to break the bubble, to bust the bubble of everybody who's out there. That is how science has come to where they are today. That is exactly how it is. So yes, exactly. Kim - Mendability: It it is, and we have to be grateful. That's how we know that a smell is super nice, but it's not just Michelle Choairy: Yes. Kim - Mendability: super nice, it also has a lot of benefits and and the touch and all that stuff. Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: and and so we're gonna yeah, so so I Michelle Choairy: Okay. Kim - Mendability: don't know where I was going. Yes, doing a study with the University of Wisconsin. We're gonna look at different we know which parts of the brain are can grow and change as a result of exposure to environmental enrichment. So we're going to focus on those parts of the brain and humans as well. Nobody's been able to correlate the two. And that will be the first Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: time that they say, yeah, this part the brain looked like this and we anticipated it would grow and it did grow. And then we can measure by how much. And there's gonna be surprises. There's going to be lots of really cool stuff too. But we're excited about that study. Michelle Choairy: Hmm, yeah. where in the brain? Do you guys know where? Kim - Mendability: There's a there's a couple of different places. one of them is the hmm, it's a part of the brain that handles facial recognition. It's one of the most famous Michelle Choairy: okay. Kim - Mendability: areas that w they know is not developed the same in humans who develop who show autistic traits. Michelle Choairy: Okay. Kim - Mendability: we're also look going to look at the hippocampus, and that's the the one that's a male man. That you know, everything Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: goes to the hippocampus and from the hippocampus is dispatched back to somewhere else in the brain. So we're gonna look Michelle Choairy: I just yeah. Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: at that because they know that environmental enrichment creates some changes there with more dynamic changes and things like that. They're going Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: to look at the surface of the cortex to see if we create additional wrinkles, maybe, because the idea of of creating a surge of activity and growth is there's gonna be more neurons, more connections between the neurons. Now it's not as simple as that. You know, there's parts of the brain in in in the autistic brain that are t that have too many connections there. And and Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: so and so it'll be interesting to see if those sort of prune themselves out. So the idea is to normalize Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: this the the connectivity. Michelle Choairy: Okay. Are you looking for specific age? Are you keeping it to a okay? Okay. Kim - Mendability: Yes, we want to look at the older kids as between eight and eighteen because they're most of the studies look at little kids and we know that the little kids have got plastic brains already and after a period of six months of giving them interesting things to do, even if it's not sensory enrichment, we expect that it's gonna be a change. And then they between eight and eighteen, there's also some plasticity. There's also puberty, and so we're gonna be controlling for some variables. So the kids are gonna be paired up. by age and by intervention. Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: So all the kids will continue to do their interventions. You know, if they're doing ABA, they keep doing ABA, they'll be matched up with another kid who's also doing ABA at the same age and everything else. But one of them Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: will be doing sensory enrichment for six months and one of them won't, that kind of stuff. So Michelle Choairy: Got it. Kim - Mendability: we would look we would like to the the next one is to look at adults. Michelle Choairy: Sure. Yeah. Kim - Mendability: but the the grant The grant was associated with, you know, below eighteen. So we look we Michelle Choairy: Okay. Kim - Mendability: took the the top bracket of that. Michelle Choairy: So how many groups are you gonna have? Sorry, I know this is a little bit more of a study, but I just I that was my whole thing this year is like I wanna make sure that this is a little bit more scientific Kim - Mendability: Mm. Michelle Choairy: for the parents. And so how many groups? Because you said ABA, ABA alone, then ABA with sensory enrichment. Kim - Mendability: It's just gonna be A versus B. So no, no, A versus Michelle Choairy: Okay. okay. Kim - Mendability: A plus B. I don't Michelle Choairy: Okay. Kim - Mendability: know what the name for that particular study is. There there's we were looking at doing some crossover design where we wanted to see the residual impact of having done sensory enrichment for kids who do sensory enrichment and then switch to ABA without sensory enrichment. Do these kids progress during their ABA only phase differently? Michelle Choairy: Mm Kim - Mendability: Then the kids who start by doing ABA Michelle Choairy: that's a lot. Kim - Mendability: and then move on to sensory management and then go back. But the the budget was not there. And and I anybody who's familiar Michelle Choairy: Yeah, it's a lot. Kim - Mendability: with autism or even research in general, especially these days with the changes with the how the NIH is being managed, then the fact that we even have the grant and the money to do this study is a miracle. So Michelle Choairy: Yes, it hey honestly, we we've been in touch with the main researcher for TBR1 and my gosh, the poor guy went through like he he just over a year of just trying to write this so he could get his grant and we were very happy that he did get The grant. Kim - Mendability: Yeah. Michelle Choairy: And so now we're gonna be looking at some models and things like that, which is going to hopefully help us in the future. Anyway, but yes, science, research in general, it is so hard to get these grants going. So you obviously had something there to get that grant because without it, forget about it. You have to prove so much, and yeah, yeah. Kim - Mendability: Yeah. Well, we have the the clinical studies from before where they just looked at behavioral changes through tests like CARS and rediagnosing the kids Michelle Choairy: Hm. Kim - Mendability: before and after with ADOS and doing the short Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: sensory profile and and IQ tests Michelle Choairy: Okay. Kim - Mendability: and things like that. So they they saw some very robust studies that were done ten years ago now. And so we were able to say, Can Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: we does do these changes correlate with actual structural changes in the brain? Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: And a lot of people got really excited by that particular question. Yeah. Michelle Choairy: Okay. I know. I was like it because like I said, grants are not easy to come by at all. okay, so your groups, are you doing just sensory and then ABA or are you looking for kids with ABA? Kim - Mendability: When I s I used ABA because it's popular amongst, you know, families who do Michelle Choairy: Okay. Just a Kim - Mendability: yeah, some some will not be doing ABA, but we'll be doing a mix of occupational and maybe ABA plus occupational therapy and speech therapy and physio. So whatever their mix is that they come in with, it needs to be stable, you know, no changes introduced in the last few weeks 'cause we want, you know, the those programs to have had all the to to Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: be in a stable place. They can be taking medication too if and things like that. But they have to be able to withstand half an hour in an MRI. And so that's Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: going to be I think our biggest limiting factor. Michelle Choairy: So I I'm glad it well, it's a good thing you're looking at a little bit older. we had Drake's MRI done and he had to go under. There was no way he was gonna sit there and lay there and allow them to like not move, you know, to do a brain MRI. so it yeah, hopefully they will lay there. Kim - Mendability: We couldn't we couldn't do that. Well, we might have to. We chose we were hop we're hoping we're gonna have enough people who can do it without sedation. because Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kim - Mendability: we also want to look at the default network mode and Michelle Choairy: Mm. Kim - Mendability: do a little bit of an EEG to see if if in if that mode Michelle Choairy: During the time. Kim - Mendability: is different after six months of changing all these things in the brain. Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: they're gonna be allowed to take, you know, some kind of like a I don't know, they kids equivalent of a Xanax just to Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: get them to chill a little bit. So we'll see. Michelle Choairy: Yeah. That's hard. Especially if you're looking at some kids with ADHD and and different things like that. Do they have to have a certain diagnosis? Are you looking for autism diagnosis? Okay. Yeah. Kim - Mendability: Yeah, they need to have been diagnosed with autism for sure. Yeah, they need to have they have some classification on the ADOS. non-speaking. because we Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Okay. Kim - Mendability: want we want the kids to be severe enough that a structural change in the brain is is going to be an exciting thing to look at. Michelle Choairy: Okay. Yeah. Kim - Mendability: it's a bit of an interesting way of describing that, but Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: we wanted we wanted, yeah, the the disability to be pretty obvious. If you know what I Michelle Choairy: When do you start? Kim - Mendability: mean. Michelle Choairy: Yes, when do you start? Kim - Mendability: we're waiting for well at the time of this recording we're we're waiting for IRB. we went for a pre Michelle Choairy: Uh-huh. Kim - Mendability: R B and it's all good. So now we're a few weeks away from starting recruitment. So by the time this is released, we will have started the study. Michelle Choairy: Okay. Well that's what I'm look that's what I'm wondering, 'cause if I need to move you guys up the line, I'm happy Kim - Mendability: Mm. Michelle Choairy: to do that. So it can be released at the time when you guys are Kim - Mendability: Well, like I said, we're gonna struggle to find kids who can take the R I. So I think it'll take a year maybe, Michelle Choairy: Okay. Kim - Mendability: to get all the kids enrolled. So Michelle Choairy: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's just so the listeners, whoever's listening, if you do have so stay tuned. Kim - Mendability: All the Michelle Choairy: Go to mendability dot com, right? That's what you have. That's where it's gonna be. Kim - Mendability: there's going to be a page on our website. we're not the ones running the study. So we don't we want to minimize the conflict of interest, but we're the ones administering the therapy, right? So Michelle Choairy: Okay. yes, it's gonna be the University of Okay. Got it. huh. Kim - Mendability: so we were involved in a study at some point, and everybody it's all hands on deck to recruit. So we said, hey, we'll put a page on our website. Michelle Choairy: Sure. Yeah. Kim - Mendability: so there's going to be a page on our website. Now I Michelle Choairy: Okay. Kim - Mendability: need to decide now what that page is going to be. It's gonna be mendability.com and for sure there's going to be a banner on a on top of our site because it's gonna be the most exciting thing that we'll be involved in. So there's gonna be a banner that says, Hey, clinical study, click here. So yeah. Michelle Choairy: Okay, all right. Happening. Okay. Perfect. That's what we're gonna do. So just do that, listeners. I'm excited for this. This is this is big. This is big. I think that you know, you already have proof of certain things, but this is gonna be even bigger. I do know Kim - Mendability: Yeah. Once you got pictures, it's, you know, irrevocable. Michelle Choairy: There's there's no way of no that didn't work. No, that didn't do it. So I we actually are moving. I think that there are the studies that are coming out, the rare diseases place, we are really looking into more of these types of diagnosis and diagnostic Kim - Mendability: Mm-hmm. Michelle Choairy: procedures and and things like that because they're y biomarkers. Exactly. Kim - Mendability: Yeah, biomarkers, right? Not just look at the kid and think, because he didn't say this and didn't do this this particular way, I think he has that particular thing. Yeah, Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: we need to to we're we're getting close. We're itching our way to or Michelle Choairy: Right. Kim - Mendability: be able to do like a blood test or a scan and say, Yep, that's what you got. Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Yeah, it's awesome. All right, Kim. Here's here's the last question on all of my podcasts. Kim - Mendability: Okay. Michelle Choairy: If there is one thing that the parents who are listening right now, from what you have, the one thing that they should come out with from this episode, what would that be? Kim - Mendability: Well, I'm on a bit of a mission to say what I'm about to say, but we didn't get a chance to mention it or to talk about this during the podcast. So it's gonna come out a bit of a as a as a as a fresh thing. But this Michelle Choairy: We might have to have part two. It it's Kim - Mendability: idea that the child your child's brain does not need to be worked on all day in order to keep developing. And this is, you know, we see a lot of kids who are doing hours and hours of they're programmed. All day, right? And then there's this fear that parents have. Well, if I don't, if I'm not intentional about going there, then he doesn't look like he's going to naturally grow out of it. So I need to make it happen. And this idea of well, we'll go to this specialist and this specialist and this specialist. And you're so happy when you get a spot somewhere, and she just boom. And then the kid has never a chance to recover and process. And so you need. To take breaks. The brain grows when it's doing nothing. That's the thing I want to I want parents to to remember. It's during breaks that the brain Michelle Choairy: Okay, that one was for me. That was for me. Kim - Mendability: grows. Okay. Michelle Choairy: My son. It's he's go go go the whole entire time. And it's okay. Kim - Mendability: Now it's different. If different if they're initiating it, right? If it's something that they do, and Michelle Choairy: Okay. Kim - Mendability: if they're doing their own playing, their own they're in control. It's when there's an adult or some kind of pressure on them to perform a certain way. Then the brain will focus on that and that's it. It won't grow. Michelle Choairy: But that's what it is. Yes. Yeah. Kim - Mendability: It's going to, you know, put a pin on that for a while. And then it's after the therapy session that the chan the brain has a chance to say, okay, I want to go there. And sometimes the pain Michelle Choairy: Mm. Kim - Mendability: of not going there is worse. So it's not like they want to go there, but they know they're gonna go to the same therapist and gonna the same situation is gonna happen again, and they don't want the nightmare of not being able to perform that particular way. So through fear, they will change their brain. And it's one of the mechanisms to do that. You know, trauma is basically the brain through fear, having learned very quickly that don't go there again, right? The the stove is Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: hot. The The kid's gonna cross the street, be careful. That kind of that kind of trauma or Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: the bomb exploded and anything that sounds like a little bit of a bomb now, the brain freaks out. This is a very Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: strong and powerful mechanism. What we're trying to suggest is there's a way through pleasure and reward and desire and agency to get the brain to change. But that means that the brain Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: needs to then be given a chance to respond and recover and process and learn. So Michelle Choairy: Okay, we're gonna keep going because I got we're gonna keep going. This is way past our time, but but I we're gonna keep going Kim - Mendability: Okay. Michelle Choairy: because now I have a follow-up question to that. Kim - Mendability: Okay. Michelle Choairy: So my son, because I I want like I now you opened up this whole like maybe this is part two. Part two, part two. I know. No, it's all good. It's all good. So Kim - Mendability: I'm sorry, it's my fault, but you said you said Okay, okay, okay. Michelle Choairy: here's the thing. So once you let's talk about therapy then. Do you have time? Because we can keep going for a little bit longer. Kim - Mendability: I'm good. Michelle Choairy: Okay. All right. So let's talk about therapy, right? For a child. So, for example, so my son, I'll I'm gonna tell you my son's schedule, and then I wanna hear what it is that you have to say about that. Kim - Mendability: Yes. Michelle Choairy: So Mondays, he goes to school, he's in seventh grade in a moderate class. So it is for intellectual disabilities, and they're really just trying to teach him how to read and write. Okay. Kim - Mendability: Who else is in that class? Michelle Choairy: another of twelve, thirteen kids that aren't Kim - Mendability: And do they all have s a condition or are they okay. Michelle Choairy: Yes. Yes. Yes. They it's a it's an it's a self-contained class. They do go Kim - Mendability: Gotcha. Michelle Choairy: out for cooking and PE with general education, but they are in a self-contained classroom. Okay. Kim - Mendability: Yeah. All right. Thank you. Michelle Choairy: Then he goes on Mondays and Wednesdays, he goes to an in an intensive outpatient program, which is a behavioral compli yes, yes. Kim - Mendability: One second about that class, because I'm not taking notes, so I'm gonna ask you some follow up questions as you describe them. Michelle Choairy: Okay. Kim - Mendability: maybe I should be taking notes. Let me grab a pen. that class. Michelle Choairy: Okay. Kim - Mendability: have you visited it? Michelle Choairy: Yes, a c a few times. Kim - Mendability: And did you feel this is a nice peaceful environment? I wish every child, with or without conditions would participate in that kind of environment? Or did you feel when you left like, that was a lot of noise, that was a lot of distractions, that was very heavy? Michelle Choairy: W well there there are distractions, but it's because they're in groups. So each you know, there's a group of kids, usually, you know, four or five kids in each station because they're working differently. And so they have a para or an aide with them. helping them do the work as the teacher goes around and really does her teaching. Kim - Mendability: So the there's a lot of stuff happening. Yeah, got it. Okay, that that's all I need to know. Michelle Choairy: A lot of stuff happening. Okay? Okay. Kim - Mendability: that I've, you know, visited a lot of special ed programs because, you know, Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: it can you imagine if you had special ed teachers trained in doing this and starting every Michelle Choairy: yeah. Kim - Mendability: learning session with a little bit of a brain priming to get the brain in a learning mode and relaxed and calm and motivated and excited to learn. Michelle Choairy: Yes. Kim - Mendability: Right. So so yeah. anyway, so keep talking. So that's Mondays. Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Okay. So that's that well, that's every day, right? Monday through Friday, because it's school every Kim - Mendability: okay. Michelle Choairy: day. And then in the afternoon on Mondays and Wednesdays, he goes to this behavior it's an intensive outpatient program for behaviors. And they Kim - Mendability: Mm-hmm. Michelle Choairy: do they work on different things like accepting no as an answer or Having conversations that are not for my son, this is a big thing. He always talks about what he wants and he doesn't have a back and forth conversation with somebody. Like he will tell you all about it. Kim - Mendability: Have you visited that class? Michelle Choairy: no, I have not. I have not. But there Kim - Mendability: Okay. So you don't know what kind of pressure they're putting on him. Michelle Choairy: No, so what I do know is that if he he gets so many points for doing each program or whatever it is that they're doing throughout the time that he's there. And then at the end he pack he picks a prize. He gets a prize. So it's like that positive reinforcement token program, right? And that's what Kim - Mendability: Mm-hmm. Michelle Choairy: That is what the majority of that's what you l I mean, this is this is A B A B A from you know, from the beginning. You do this, it's first then and it's always that's kinda how it goes. Kim - Mendability: Yeah. Yep. Yep. From what you've described, yeah, I think you're you're getting I mean th there's there's nice versions, you know. Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: and I'm assuming that, you know, all the bad stuff has been outlawed now. But yeah, this Michelle Choairy: Yes. Kim - Mendability: it's still okay. I'm gonna put a pin on that one. I got I got something to say about this particular approach already. Michelle Choairy: Okay. Kim - Mendability: But keep going. Michelle Choairy: Then on Tuesdays and Thursdays, he actually loves swimming. And we found the physical therapist who does do a lot of work on stretching, on like in the water. And okay, all right. Kim - Mendability: Sorry, I' my my pen's not working. I wanna write this down, give me a sec. Okay, physiotherapist swimming and Wednesdays and Michelle Choairy: Swimming. He loves it. Kim - Mendability: Fridays. Michelle Choairy: Tuesdays and Thursdays. Kim - Mendability: Wow. I need a better brain. Tuesdays and Thursdays. Yep. Michelle Choairy: And then and then after that he goes to speech therapy on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Yes. Kim - Mendability: After the swimming. Okay. Michelle Choairy: Fridays are Kim - Mendability: And what do they do with speech? Cause it sounds like he can have conversations. He talks about what he wants to talk about, but that means Michelle Choairy: It's yeah it's yeah. Kim - Mendability: he can put he can string words together. So w what do they work on it? Michelle Choairy: He can. He just it he has so he has a motor planning issue. So it's a proxia, a childhood a praxis speech. So they work Kim - Mendability: I practice yet, yeah. Michelle Choairy: on, yeah, they work on motor planning and some other things that right now I can't think of. But like, you know, putting words together, putting making because he he's getting so much better at putting like full sentences together. But for a long time it was, you know, three words. And he would just he would yeah. So Kim - Mendability: Yeah. Michelle Choairy: he does one of those is actually music therapy. It's not speech. It's a music therapy that they combine with some of the speech stuff. So he goes to swimming, music therapy on Tuesday. And then swimming and speech therapy, the mortar planning type speech therapy therapy on Thursdays. Kim - Mendability: Mm-hmm. Okay. Michelle Choairy: Friday afternoons, he has a ten minute lesson on Portuguese. Portuguese lesson. And then the rest of the time, it's his. Kim - Mendability: That's interesting. Did he pi why a Portuguese? Michelle Choairy: Because I'm from Brazil and I speak Portuguese. Kim - Mendability: So do you participate in that lesson? Michelle Choairy: No, so I spoke Portuguese only to him until he was about three years old. And then when he started, Kim - Mendability: Do you spoke Portuguese only or English and Portuguese? Michelle Choairy: Well, only to him, because me and his nanny were Brazilian, so we would then my husband would speak English to him when he was a baby. But Kim - Mendability: Okay. Michelle Choairy: after that we you know, the speech therapist said he has to have one language output language because it's already hard enough for him to motor plan one language. And so Kim - Mendability: What how old was he when the speech therapist said that? Michelle Choairy: he was about four 'cause he's he didn't say his first word until he was about three or three and a little bit. Kim - Mendability: And was it a Portuguese word or an English word? Michelle Choairy: English word. It was more. I I have it on video. It's it's hilarious. It's i yeah, that was his first word, like independent word. Kim - Mendability: So y you spoke Portuguese to Michelle Choairy: Yes. Kim - Mendability: your son until he was how old? Michelle Choairy: About three and a half. Kim - Mendability: And he hadn't said his Michelle Choairy: Four. Kim - Mendability: first word yet. Michelle Choairy: maybe he did that was like it was all kind of at the same time. So he he said his first word. We went we found the speech therapists that were the apraxia trained speech therapists, all kind of at the same time. And then yeah, and then after that I had to stop. Kim - Mendability: So his first word was there's a possibility his first word was not more. Michelle Choairy: There is, but independently, like him asking for something, it you know what I mean? It wasn't it wasn't Kim - Mendability: him s yeah, right. So not you say please say how do you say cookie in Portuguese? Michelle Choairy: like okay, let's say mom, mom, mom. But it wasn't like him calling me mom. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Kim - Mendability: It was you asking him to say it. Yes. Totally different. And I appreciate that. Okay. Michelle Choairy: And the more was more because he was playing with my husband and my husband was throwing him on the bed. And so he would go like this, because that's he he used sign language. And then we said, You've got to say more. So he said it and then my husband put him down and he looks at my husband and goes, More and and he said it at that time. So anyway, it was like, yes. Kim - Mendability: Yes. Yes. Yes. I love that story. That story because it's going to connect everything I'm going to say. so far. Is there any more to the his programming? Michelle Choairy: Okay. No, that's it. That's it. Yeah. Is that enough? Do should I get some more? Kim - Mendability: No, no, no, no, no, please don't. but it's not just the quantity, it's also the quality. Michelle Choairy: Yes. Kim - Mendability: okay. He learned he said more. He wanted to say more because Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: he was going to have an emotional connection with somebody. I know Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: playing together is not just the fun of play. There's actually Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: oxytocin being released when you have a an experience together. You could sit down, listen to the same piece of music, and you're both your brains Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: are releasing oxytocin. Oxytocin makes you feel I'm safe with that person. And when you're safe with that person, that's one of the three fundamental jobs that the brain has to do. It has to keep you safe, has to keep you in balance, so safe internally, Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: and it helps you remember for next time. So what happened with that particular on that particular day is that he was having a moment And he wanted more of that safety for the first time. I don't know, not for the first time, but that was an instant. That is a moment where there's no pressure on him. It was all about fun. And that's when he was Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: able to connect with that person. And somebody said, if you want more of that, you say that word. And so now Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: he's a he's saying something because it's going to make him feel very good because he's going to connect Michelle Choairy: Good, yes. Kim - Mendability: with people. What you want, and you said that at ABA or That intensive behavior program, Michelle Choairy: IOP, yes. Kim - Mendability: he he's taught to have conversations that are not just about him. That people want, you know, the people outside of him have different interests than him. And so Michelle Choairy: Yes. Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: if he wants to connect emotionally with people, he has to give them an opportunity to connect back, right? So this Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: this abstract concept. But for him, so he but he if he hasn't learned it, it's because he hasn't felt. that emotional connection to the same degree that he felt it when he was three and a half years old. But Michelle Choairy: Mm, mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: this is what you want to give him. And it's not going to happen with Michelle Choairy: Mm. Kim - Mendability: a therapist. He's going to you're going to you want to do those Portuguese sessions with him. With him. And you want Michelle Choairy: Mm. Kim - Mendability: to show him that the best way to bond with mom is to have a conversation in a that native language of mom. What you're basically Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: saying psychologically is that you're going to have a secret bond. And kids Michelle Choairy: Mm. Kim - Mendability: want secret bonds, right? Especially with their mom Michelle Choairy: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: and their dad. You want and the problem with y hours and hours of therapy, especially with intensive sh behavior change, is that they're Repeatedly told that they're not enough. And do you know what it does to Michelle Choairy: Cheese. Kim - Mendability: a child? Yeah. So it's not just the Michelle Choairy: Never thought of it that way. Kim - Mendability: quantity, it's the quality. He needs to be told and he needs to feel that he's loved unconditionally, and that those things that you want him to learn is because it's gonna create a bond with you. You should be involved in all of the therapy sessions. Michelle Choairy: quit my job and yeah. I Yes Yes now what do we do? Yes. Kim - Mendability: So so now what? Right? So now you need the money. And we know it's so expensive to live with somebody like that. So so I I just throw in a bomb. Phew! And I know I did. Okay? And Michelle Choairy: Yeah, thank you. Yes. Kim - Mendability: and for the sake of time, I did not mince my words. And and now I I have to like backpedal a little bit. And I just want to tell you you I know you're doing everything for him. Michelle Choairy: Uh-huh. Kim - Mendability: And that you've been then you told, you know, you listened to that speech therapist who said he needs to have one language at putting and needs to be English. Okay, Michelle Choairy: Uh-huh. Kim - Mendability: but that was a wrong language to choose. He should have she should have selected the mom language. Because he's more attached to you than to dad. Now he's now he they wanted they wanted a three years old to attach him to a world that doesn't exist for him yet. Because of course the world he lives in is in English. But he doesn't know that. He's just been separated. He had a traumatic experience where all of a sudden now it was to be a different word a different set of words and he wasn't going to connect with you anymore. And and so you a bunch of therapists have come in and have told you to do things the way that they taught in school without realizing the impact it has on the psychology of a little kid. They've been Michelle Choairy: Mm. Yeah. Kim - Mendability: treating kids with neurological conditions like animals, literally. They move them without asking for their permission, to do things to them without does a, you know, accepting no. That broke my heart when you said that. Michelle Choairy: I mean we had to we we he has to learn that because it is it was non stop. It was nonstop for me, for dad, yes. Kim - Mendability: Behavior is communication. And I think you told me that during our podcast. Michelle Choairy: I did and it is. It is communication. There's no doubt about it. But Kim - Mendability: So so what is he saying when he's not accepting the no? Address that and then Noah's not a problem anymore. Michelle Choairy: Yeah. I don't I don't think I yes, I don't think that it's Yes, no, for sure. No. Yes. No, I yes, no, it's perfect. Yes, I know. Here we go, half an hour later. Here we go. Kim - Mendability: Maybe that's what they're doing in that intervention program. Okay. I'm just I don't know enough about your situation. But I wanted to I wanted to get on my soapbox because you you told me to. All right. You said, what is the one thing? So I was like, okay, here's my soapbox moment. And I thank you for being the guinea pig because it's in the detail and it's in the specific examples that you really can get to the truth. And so thank you for. Michelle Choairy: For sure. And I and I Kim - Mendability: being vulnerable enough to say, This is what I'm doing. Now judge me. And I went in there Michelle Choairy: Yes. Kim - Mendability: and I threw my gavel down and I so thank you. I I hope you can we need to have an offline Michelle Choairy: No, but I think that Kim - Mendability: conversation after this to kinda Michelle Choairy: course yeah now it's like what what am I gonna do am I doing everything wrong but you know it but this is important because this is what we do as moms we listen to we listen to the people who are they are the ones that know about how to change behavior right like that they're supposed to be yes and then we listen to Kim - Mendability: They're supposed to be the specialists, right? They're supposed to be the experts. And it hurts my kid, and I hate it, but I'll do it anyway, cause no pain, no gain, and they know better than me. I know, I've heard it thousands of times. And so Michelle Choairy: Yeah. I but Kim, I have to tell you though, like I I look at my son, and had I not done speech therapy for him as long as he has, I know for a fact that he wouldn't be talking. And because the majority of TBR1 kids don't talk. And so like We started early, like we started really early. And he's twelve now and he still goes to therapy. Like a lot of people when they have just apraxia, they graduate at some point, like around eight, twelve, ten, twelve, like, you know. But he and and this is something that he notices. He's twelve, he says, Mommy, I don't talk very well. And Kim - Mendability: Yep. Michelle Choairy: it is something that he knows Because he goes to school with other kids who don't understand him a hundred percent of the time. And so what does mom want to do? Now I'm looking for an extra time for speech therapy for him to go to where he can like the motor planning, learn at motor planning. Kim - Mendability: Yes, he asked for it. He said, Mom, I don't speak very well. So now he wants it. And now he Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: will get what he wants out of that speech therapy session. So Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: that's just a whole other ball game than a bunch of people telling you, you know, bad, bad, bad, good, good, good. Right. Michelle Choairy: He loves he loves going to his we call it camp, the IOP. We call it camp. I told him Kim - Mendability: Okay. Michelle Choairy: that he couldn't go last week and he was pretty sad. He's like, I want to go. And and Kim - Mendability: Interesting. Michelle Choairy: I'm telling you, Kim, it it's like these kids are so resilient. That is the one word that I can use, is because you put them in these things. And he's 12 years old. He's been going to speech therapy three times a week since he was three years old. Two to three times a week. When he was three, he had speech therapy in school and in the afternoon. Right? So and I always tried to put them together so they were kind of focusing on the same things. So we're not wasting time here, there, and everywhere. And but Today, like he actually gets sad when he doesn't go do one of his one of his therapies. And I think it's because of what you said earlier, connection. He connected with his therapists. And those therapists are now, you know, what he knows and he feels safe with them. Now I do also remember taking him to a summer camp where he did not want to go. He didn't want to go. And mom over here had to make him go because I didn't have another place for him to go. Like I I had to go to work, right? So I had to just here, you gotta go. And so and I wish that I didn't have to do those things, but The reality of it is that The in in this time and age in our society and what we're going through right now, the majority of the moms we work. There's you know what Kim - Mendability: Yeah. Yeah. Michelle Choairy: I mean? It's not like it used to be that mom stays home and takes care of the kids. Kim - Mendability: Yeah. Michelle Choairy: I I don't think that that's a rarity to find those moms out there. And Kim - Mendability: Yeah. Yeah. Michelle Choairy: At my age right now, my kid, my son is 12, my daughter's nine, I'm 50. Now is when I'm thinking, I don't want to miss those things. What can I do to change my life to be sure that I can be there and connect, exactly like you were saying, connect with my kids. So anyway, we're at an hour. Kim - Mendability: Yeah, and and and it's never it's never too late. It's not like you missed the boat. When we were doing Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Well Kim - Mendability: in in clinical studies that looked at our program, they looked at a thousand kids who did it. And Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: so they were able to do statistical stuff, right? And one of the questions we had was which age group benefits the most? And then Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: all and then we look and then we compare the progress curves for all the different age groups, and there's one line that's kinda above the others. that that starts faster than the others and then tapers off a little bit and joins in terms and becomes parallel to the other ones. It was the older kids. And Michelle Choairy: True. Kim - Mendability: I think the theory that we would we like, we don't know yet why the the Michelle Choairy: Mm. Kim - Mendability: older kids progressed faster initially than the younger kids. And it's across spectrums, across disabilities, across everything. The only difference was their age. And we feel it it's because they want it more. You know when your 12 year old said I I don't speak well. And we tell him, Michelle Choairy: Yeah, I don't talk very well. Mm-hmm. Kim - Mendability: hey, you do those brain games and you're gonna hold a teddy bear above your head and you're gonna walk across a p beam with your eyes folded. But say that's gonna help you, you know, speak better. I don't know if it is, I was just using a bad example, but that's one of the games that we have. Then he'll Michelle Choairy: Sure, yeah, yeah, yes. Kim - Mendability: say, Okay, you know, and then he'll apply himself. Whereas if you do it with a three-year-old, then he's just goofing around, doesn't understand, and so you kind of waste. Michelle Choairy: Yes. Yeah. Kim - Mendability: But if you engage with the experience, then your brain is totally focused and then grows that much farther. Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: So so what I'm saying is at twelve years old, you actually have a little bit of an edge in terms of getting the progress that you've been looking for so far. So Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Kim - Mendability: so you haven't lost you haven't lost a boat. Missed the boat. Sorry, my French comes out. like I Michelle Choairy: Okay, well it Kim - Mendability: said, I said irrevocable earlier and I meant irrefutable. It's Michelle Choairy: Got you because you know the Portuguese, the Latin, I I understood what that was, and I honestly Kim - Mendability: yeah. Michelle Choairy: I didn't even think about being the wrong word. So okay, well, yes, I think we're gonna have to talk offline, but I think that it's time. So my listeners, Kim - Mendability: On this bombshell. Michelle Choairy: I know now that I am just You know, all these therapies are just too much for my kid, and I've been a bad mom. Just joking. then we're gonna end. And thank you very much, everyone, for being here. Thank you, Kim. And we will continue at another well, hang on. One more thing. All of this that we're talking, go to Mendability, and then it will be on the show notes, also. Kim - Mendability: Sure. Michelle Choairy: All right, everyone, we'll see you next week. Bye. Kim - Mendability: Bye bye, everyone.