Latest / The theunhingedhygienists’s Podcast / TMJ Dysfunction: What Your Jaw Muscles Are Telling You | Jessica Cordell LMT | EP 31

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TMJ Dysfunction: What Your Jaw Muscles Are Telling You | Jessica Cordell LMT | EP 31 · The theunhingedhygienists’s Podcast

• jessica podbean: We're dancing in. We're dancing in. Although we're recording already. Are we recording? Yeah. We're recording. We are very prepared for every episode. Welcome back to all of us. Welcome back. That's right. Okay, welcome back to the Unhinged Hygienist. That's us. Where we're helping hygienists think differently so patients can live differently. Done. And and to what? What are we doing today? Today we're talking about the jaw, which apparently has decided it would be like it would really like to be involved in everything, the jaw. Yeah. Especially my headaches. Would be the jaw. Yeah. Because I'll sit there and I'm like, I massage my patients sometimes. I'm like, yeah. It feels so good. Yeah. I'm like, this is great. It does it doesn't feel the same when you do it. No massages feel the same when you do it yourself. And I don't know why, but I don't like it. But because your brain's still on. Is that what it is? Yeah, you're still having to think about everything versus when someone does it for you. There's no thoughts. There's just it's smooth brain when someone else does it for you. But is that the same as us getting our hair washed at the salon? Is just better. So yo, way better. Like and also my my stylist has like the long nails too. And so when she does a scalp rash, like I told my stepdaughter I want to do like those the rain thing. Yeah. In Vegas it was only like forty five dollars at the nail salon there at VIP Nails or Pin Up Nail or that nail place. It's like two hundred and fifty dollars here. I told you we were gonna go outside and I was gonna get the hose and put it on like the setting. And that's what we were gonna do. Two hundred and fifty dollars, people aren't crack. But back to the jaw guys, because headaches. That's where we were squirreling. It could be the jaw. Is it neck pain? The jaw. I feel like a lot of it is clenching, obviously the jaw. Airway problems. The jaw would like a seat at that table as well. Yeah. Hormone changes. Apparently the jaw is coming into that meeting as well. The jaw likes to come into all the meetings. It does. It wants to be involved. It's very nosy. It's like a bad mother's. And at like really at this point I wonder wh why the the jaw or like my TMJ is more responsible for my credit score. Which is going by the way. It is thriving. I love this for you. See, and this is exactly why I love this topic, because the jaw does not exist by itself. We see someone clenching, and automatically the response is, as a hygienist, we say you need a night guard, right? But the question is not what, but why? Why are they clenching? Yeah. Why do they need an eye guard? Why is their airway doing something? What's happening to their tongue? What's happening with their neck and their posture? And, you know, what the heck is their nervous system doing? I don't know. There can be so much more happening than the two pieces of plastic or acrylic rubbing against each other from the dental office. My nervous system is a shit show. Day and every day. Seven days a week. Yeah, right? Cause you know, you know how we feel about stopping at the symptom. We don't do that. If someone walks into my chair and tells me they're clenching, grinding, waking up with headaches or jaw hurts, I don't want to just say, cool, here's some plastic, wear a night guard and see you in six months. Yeah. You know, because I feel like maybe the night guard protects the teeth, but it's more of like what is driving the behavior? That's like a band-aid fix for a lot of things. And we can go into that whole airway. If they have severe airway issues and you're giving them a night guard, you're just giving them less space to breathe. especially an upper night guard. Like I I could tell people like if you can do a lower, do a lower. Because the second you put that upper night guard in and if they're already having issues with their tongue posture and things like that, I mean you're just asking for bigger problems immediately with their airway. That's a good point. And this is why, guys, today's guest is perfect for this conversation. Jessica Cordell is a licensed massage therapist. We wish she was here with us today massaging us, but she's focused on TMJ jaw therapy, hypermobility, EDS informed care, airway support through perimenopause and menopause and pre- and post-tongue tie and scar tissue workout. I can't even speak perimenopause. It's a whole episode in itself. I will kick in my ass. But Jessica, welcome to our beautifully unhinged corner of health. Care. Yeah. We're so happy you're here. We are happy. Happy to be here. Yes. It's good. It's good. And I think we want to have like a really good explanation of who you are and how you got here. And how'd you get into TMJ specifically? Because it's obviously a very specific area of the body. So how did you become TMJology? Yeah. So I mean, I am the type who will fall down every rabbit hole if possible, but kind of starting it back like from the beginning, I was a dental assistant for five years before going into massage therapy. So I got a lot of, you know, the experience with the TMJ, with the appliance therapy, you know, things like that. Yeah. I I was the person who was always adjusting the night guards when the patients would come in and well, my night guard feels off and now my bite feels off. I was the person always doing that and and and telling the patients, been like, that's just unfortunate genetics, that's just what it you know, like the same old, you know, same old kind of stuff when it came to it, you know. And it was during COVID 2020 happened and we got furloughed at our office for about six weeks. And it was during that time where I was like, Yeah, I I don't want to do it anymore. Like I don't wanna be dental assistant. It's not that I like I hated it, you know, but it wasn't what I wanted to keep doing, you know, with through the rest of my career. And I had been someone who wanted to be a massage therapist since I was like thirteen. So I was like, you know what? Why not? When everything's unstable at this time, why not just throw in something, you know, changing my career at the same time? What does it matter? Let's like, let's do it. You know, so 2021 started and I started, you know, massage therapy school. And I quickly found out that they're like wasn't like a lot, you know, out out there of like TMJ massage therapists and things like that. So I knew getting, you know, to take my background and pulling it into massage therapy would be a really useful, you know, skill set to be able to have. So you know, after I, you know, finished up, you know, school with, you know, massage therapy, then came like all the extra, you know, CEs, you know, in classes of the actual TMJ, you know, and intra-oral massage, because you don't learn any of that kind of stuff, you know, in massage school. So you have to, you know, do it like on your own. As well as just like a lot of trial and error. Like, did this work? It didn't work, you know, what worked? What did this worked on one person, but not this other person? And you know, so it was great. Like my my massage patients were coming in and they were getting relief while they were here, but then within a couple weeks, they'd come back with the same issues. And it was like, there's there's gotta be a reason, right? You can't, you know, what's like going on, you know, out once you step out of here. And it was actually during the time I fell and tore my AC joint. And so I couldn't massage for like nine months because I was out of commission after I had like my surgery done, you know, and thing like that. And it was during that time that I went down another rabbit hole. And then that's when I found out about myofunctional therapy. And as I was like learning more about that, it was like just hitting like all these key symptoms that my patients would come back in and say, like, I have this, I have a headache, I have migraines, it's my neck. It's, you know, and then it was just like, my gosh, like this just might aim, give me more answers to, you know, help my patients. So I went down all of that training, you know, and did that with like the myomentor program and got all of that training done. And then I was really fortunate to almost three years, I worked at Vivos as a myofunctional therapist. And so that's how I collected all of like that airway knowledge, you know. So really starting to learn about like the airway aspect of it. And I got to be a part of like their case studies with like the tongue tie releases. So I gotta see like, you know, 70, 80 tongue tie releases happened, you know, with kiddos and be a really big part of that. And it just started like, you know, adding up, you know, with you know, what how I could help my patients. And so, you know, between that, learning about the hypermility, you know, just myself, that I am a hypermobile being, you know, and things like that as well. I noticed, you know, too in my patients that. Big, big population is 40 to 55. What happens in that time frame for women that they start to experience? So I started diving down the let's look at hormones. How do hormones play, you know, a toll, you know, into all of this here? And so I've done all this training, I've made such a niche practice, you know, that can, you know, pull from a lot of different areas of education to make it to where. I tell my patients, I'm like, look, depending on, you know, what kind of care you're looking for, is it active care or passive care? Cause you can come in here, I can give you your massage, you're gonna feel great, you know, maybe for a couple of days, a couple of weeks, but whatever made you have to step foot in here in the first place is gonna come back. And you know, it which is fine. I have always felt that, you know, when I ask patients, you know, how much time, energy, and finances do you have? Because that plays a big part, you know, in care for someone. And if it's one of those where you're like, I don't have the time and money to dive down into the myo and the airway and my hormones. I just need you to fix my symptoms right now that I'm having with my jaw pain. Great. I'm not gonna bring up any other thing, you know, with that. I have, you know, like free ebooks that I give out to those patients. And it's like, hey, when you're ready to learn more and you have the time for it, here's this information. Access it when you're ready, kind of plant the seed and they they come back. They do. Once they keep coming back and spending the money over and over again with the massage and only get short term relief, they get to a point where they're like, okay, but what else can I do? And then that's when we dive into the airway, the hormones, the hypermobility. Like we really get to start diving deeper to be able to help them with their actual jaw pain. I that's amazing. But I think in medicine in general, it's like We just especially Western medicine, right? We just fix the symptom. Patients just want the symptom fixed, but they don't really want a solution to actually prevent that symptom from reoccurring. So I think we're Exactly. Even dentistry. You know, we've been doing the same thing. Six month profies, bleeding, inflammation, brush and floss. Six months, bleeding, inflammation. just brush and floss. So there's like a vicious cycle of insanity. So this is I love I love that you're doing the drip system and you're really informing people that there are symptoms and symptoms causes for these symptoms, right? Because I think we all just assume, especially with the perimenopause stuff, or even the clenching and grinding, like, it's just who I am. it's just my age. it's just my stress. It's just just stress. And it's just, but it's not. And I mean, I'll bring that back, especially with clenching and grinding. I'll say to a patient, why do babies clench and grind? They're not stressed. What are they stressed about? Right. Why do they have these flat old teeth? You can't, it has to be something else. But is there like when you first went down your rabbit hole as far as like I know about John Barnes and like myofascial releases and other stuff, but is there a school, an institution? Like who specializes in TMJ intraoral head and neck kind of massage? I mean, there's there's a yeah, it's there's a lot, there's a lot of courses, you know, that are out there. You know, some are hands-on, there's some courses that are, you know, fully online, you know, to where you you don't even have to do, you know, do any hands-on work, like, you know, when you're learning. I've just over the years of, you know, as a massage therapist, have been able to take like actual massage CE where I can do, you know, a lot more of the hands-on work. You know, but now between, you know, everything that I've, you know, been doing over the past, you know, five years and you know, I have like my own technique at this point, you know, I'm now putting together my own course to start teaching, you know, people do, you know, here's my technique because Every single class is going to have their own technique because it comes from one person who has decided this is what I do, this is what it helps, you know. And so let let let's like show you to that. And then my my biggest thing that I've been trying to get into, especially for like dentist, is a quick like muscle palpation test because I don't, you know, I remember patients come in, well, my tooth hurts, the tap tests, the cold tests, the imaging. Everything's fine. It's that. And you know, it'll get to a point where the patient's like, Well, it it hasn't stopped bothering me. And so we have these unnecessary root can you know canals that are happening, you know, because the pain just like won't stop. And so I get a lot of those referrals, you know, from patients who are like, Yeah, well, they told me I can do, you know, this night guard, you know, muscle relaxers or like a root canal, but I you know, I don't want to jump in, you know, to that well. And then we get them in here and start working on like trigger points, especially in like the master and the medial pterygoid. And as soon as we get into those muscles, they're like, that's it. That is the pain that I've been experiencing. And it's muscle, it's trigger point referrals. You know, especially because they're clenching and grinding. So there's this constant contraction that's going on with these muscles, and they're tired and fatigued. You know, all the time. And they start referring pain. So just being able to learn that where if you can go in and palpate a couple of muscles and, you know, and they'll be like, yeah, it's actual muscular. Here's this next person that I'm gonna send you over to. And then if something doesn't resolve, then we can, you know, come back and chat, you know, and see like what's going on there. But that's like my biggest thing is you know. Check the muscles. The muscles are so involved with, you know, so much. We especially in like dental care, because there's so much that's going on and around in this area. Yep. That's I mean, I work in an airway focused office right now. And it's interesting how we will stick a pinky up in that pterygoid and be like, how's that feel? And then of course people jump through the roof. And I don't know why, like I we were taught you know, oral cancer screenings and other stuff. And so we're always kind of palpating. I don't know why we don't just work that in. Especially if we have to have this automatic thing of like have the assistant go take a PA and a bite wing and find out what's going on. Also, hey, poke the muscle around where it's happening. Like that sounds like something we should work in. But it it's it's so quick and easy too. Like when they're if they're active trigger points, the second you go in there, it it's gonna say hello, you know, like when it comes to it. You know, and and with like a lot of it with a lot of it too, like. It's just the nervous system. It's on so high alert, you know, that you need to it needs more time, you know, when you're going in there. Like when I'm doing my specific like style of body work, we hang out in a space. And I tell my patients, I'm like, I don't care if this is going to take us 30 seconds or two minutes. We're not leaving this space until your nervous system gets the message that, like, hey, this is not so bad. I don't need to overreact. And then once it actually, you know, that nervous system calms down. You know, they come out of like, it was at a six, seven, now it's down to like a three, four. Okay, great. Now let's move on. You know, it's like so much manual therapy is the nervous system. You know, that's when the change is happening. Sometimes, like sometimes I can My my technique when working with patients is, you know, I could tell them like this is not a 90-minute Swedish massage where the we're not gonna speak to each other for the next like 90 minutes. Like I need to know like what you're feeling. You know, it's like I know my technique, I know where I need to work, but I don't know how you're perceiving the work, you know, that I'm doing because I can put pressure on one person and it sends them into an eight out of 10. And I can do a pressure on the next person. They're like, it's like a two, you know, it's it. And so that really helps like. guide a lot of that session there is us communicating together. And then also knowing that you're not in a rush. You know, so much of the medical system now is you have like 10 minutes, you know, with your your provider, you know. And so it's like, okay, this and this and this. And yeah, it's like my new patient appointments are two hours long because I'm not in a rush. Like I wanna make sure that we're actually addressing your chief complaints and we're addressing those and like how we can, you know, actually move through that and progress and make your body work. actually work for you the best. So it sounds like you have a really specific group of humans that come to you. A lot of referrals, a lot of dental people, a lot of TMJ migraine, like TMJ ology as a private practice. Are you a single practitioner or do you have it's yeah it's yeah, it's just me. And probably one of the best referral sources that I get a lot from is pelvic floor PTs because of the connection with the jaw on the pelvic floor. So I do a lot of, you know, if I'm working with patients with jaw pain issues and I'm like, hey, by the way, here's who I'm gonna send you to. And then like it's, you know, the other way around. So it's a lot of work with like pelvic floor PTs and I absolutely love them because then we're also dressing a lot more of the body. You know, we're not just sitting and focusing in this area. We're looking at the mid body with the diaphragm. We're looking at the pelvic floor. So you're getting a lot of areas that dress that could be that contributor to that jaw pain that you're having. That's pretty awesome. Cause I don't think a lot of people put that connection together. I know I didn't, like your jaw and your pelvic floor. Cause we had one of my friends is a pelvic floor specialist in Vegas. So we had her on. So I learned a lot in that episode. We did. we all learned I didn't know. Like I didn't realize how much is connected to the pelvic floor. With the whole fashion. Yeah. I mean, if it's one piece of fashion, you get some pink and a TMJ. And then of course we pee when we sneeze. Now we think it's that. I mean, what if it's Yeah. I would I would say like what I see like over and over again, like connection is is a dysfunctional diaphragm. It's like your breathing pattern. Because you know, with the with the pelvic floor, you know, if the diaphragm's not working properly to do a lot of the breathing, then the area like the jaw or the pelvic floor is gonna have to compensate for it. If the area like the pelvic floors have a dysfunction, then areas like the d diaphragm or like the jaw area is gonna have to compensate for it. So A lot of the times it's that dysfunctional breathing pattern in like that diaphragm. So getting that addressed with, you know, working on breathing techniques, manual release in the diaphragm and then working with your pelvic floor feet, like you will get like that full body release there. I kick on Monday and I'm gonna now I'm adding a whole other section to my appointment. Right. Right. Can you imagine that looks That Jessica gets from her massage clients. Like, I know I'm here for massage, but let's talk about your airway and your nervous system. Like, I love this. I love that you're gonna break the status quo, because that's the whole thing we're about. Is like when I have a conversation with somebody about their breastfeeding history and they're like, what does that have to do with my gingivitis? And I'm like, Right. Thank you for asking. So always my adult. My adults are always weird when the question on white windwig is like, Do you like, do you still bed wet like as an adult? And it's always like, What do you mean? Like it's like I'm first off, no, I'm not gonna go, Why are you asking that question? We're we're working and I'm like, if you only knew A lot of people don't know. They look at me like I'm crazy too. yeah. I ask, I'm like which is I'm like, Were you breastfed? They're like, No, I'm like, I can see that. Yeah. It's like a trick. Yeah. It I always call it our stupid human tricks that we can tell a lot about you, you know, just by looking at you and like, I can tell what your mom did or yeah, whatever. But But I feel as like hygienists, a lot of us aren't really it's like you palpate and we look for like crepitus or cli clicking, popping. We okay, there's tightness in the jaw. You don't open wide or you have locked jaw. But then we don't really know a lot of us what what do you even do from there? Like, do you treat right? Like if they're like locking or if they've restricted like opening or deviations, like are are you treating them differently? Like how are you treating each thing? Yeah, I mean, cause you know, obviously as, you know, massage therapist, like I I can work with the muscle side of everything, but definitely when we see a lot of, you know, deviation deflection, a lot of time it can be the structural aspect, like, you know, how how that condyle's sitting in the fossa, where's the disc at, you know, things like that. So there are times when we, you know, see deviation deflection and we do the manual therapy and it reduces it. And that tells us, like, yeah, there was a muscle component, you know, that we had going on there. deviation deflection, too, we can also see when, you know, the actual ligaments are hypermobile. And so, you know, if one side has, you know, the hypermobility, it's gonna, you get you know, easier to pull over to that side there. So what's going on, you know, structurally with the joints, with the ligaments, you know. I mean, I I see plenty of patients who haven't done all the imaging to confirm everything, like what's what's going on, you know, inside the structure there. But I'm I'm gonna treat, you know, everyone the same. Where I divide it up a little bit differently is with the hypermobile community because they're already very loose, their joints are very lax. And then when I go and strip away that stability with their muscles with like doing like massage therapy, they can get a flare from, you know, like that kind of manual therapy there. So that is, you know, a conversation I have, you know, with that population. You know, when when they have very hypermobile necks and, you know, and with with hypermobility, you know, it's Just because you're hypermobile doesn't mean you have like a connective tissue disorder. So the conversation with EDS and HEADs, it's getting very, you know, very out there, which is wonderful. That conversation finally needs to be had. But in the population, like with dental hygienists and dental assistants, you guys can just have a hypermobile neck, fingers, because you're always overusing those joints, you know, all the time, or you're in those overstrained positions, but not have any other joints that are hypermobile. So it's not a connective tissue disorder. You just have joint laxity from overuse of those joints over and over again. And so that's something we, you know, dive down to because there's a big difference of, I just have this one little hypermobile finger, you know, or just have a little bit of my neck because from an accident, you know, and I know it's it's just it goes everywhere. I can't I don't It's always this one. This is the one in life. It's always this one. Every like when I whenever a dental assistor hygienist comes in, I'm like, let me see your fingers real quick. And it's always right here. Like where it is from like. Yeah. Like that's where it always is. But when someone who's actually like, you know, hypermobile EDS and and I ask them, one, they're usually like Yeah, I'm hypermobile. And I'm like, it's all I need to know. I don't need you to show me your party tricks. You know, like if you have like full body systematic, yeah. Yeah. Because I have it. You know, I'm hypermobile in just about all of my joints, you know, as well. And then have, you know, some other issues, you know, going on. So but I have mobility in the neck. How does that present? So with it, you'll you'll see when someone like tips their neck back. I'm not gonna do it because it triggers my my symptoms when I do it there. But I can get the back of my head to touch the back of like my neck, like when I fully like like lean back like all the way. I'm pretty sure on check out like my my Instagram page. I have like photos of it of like me like looking like all the way back. Yeah. It's yeah. I mean, I can hold a quarter. And so that's like where we'll see it in the neck. And that can happen from a connective tissue disorders, you know, and things like that, where it's the actual, you know, connective tissue being affected. But also from like whiplash injuries, like high impact injuries, you know, to the neck that could have happened there. It really overstretches those ligaments in the cervical spine. So again, someone can be like, yeah, I'm like hypermobile in my neck, but nowhere else. But I also was in a rear-in car accident 10 years ago, you know, and they have, you know, and it it just sticks because they remember that. Yeah. Once those ligaments are stretched out, they're stretched out. And so that's when you have to work on now the muscles. So in kind of back to like that joint laxity, ligament laxity in the jaw with it there is when those, you know, you're able to start opening wide, like I have hypermobility in my TMJ, I can open 53 millimeters, you know, to be able to do that. Like a dentist and hygienist love me because of how wide I can open my jaw, you know, and be able to do that there. But it causes a lot of pain. I used to be able to stick my fist in my mouth back in the day. But it has shrunk That hurts so much now. Well this this leads us into the perimenopause discussion. How are our hormones affecting this? Yes, Cecilia. Or I just have a question. I don't know if this is I don't know. Do you ever have patients where you're cleaning them and their jaws like this? Uh-huh. Like drives crazy. What the hell is that? What is it, Jessica? What is it? I mean, a lot of it could just be muscle endurance, you know, having to hold your jaw open for that long takes a lot of endurance for the floor, the mouth muscles. And then fatigue too. Like, I I don't know how many people come to me. They like I had my dental cleaning or I had my filling, my crown done and now my jaw's locked shut, you know, because like of it there. And it's just spasm, you know, like in those muscles. But yeah. So I I always recommend like bite blocks to paint. I was like I was like the dental assistant hygienist are not going to be like shaming you if you ask for a bite block, you know, to be able to hold that it's like, trust me, it's going it's it's gonna Yeah. But it's gonna help them, especially if someone's hypermobile, you know, to be able to stabilize their jaw because it will likely cause them a flare, you know, when they're having to deal with that there. Because when that jaw's open too, there's just a lot more movement that can happen in that jaw. And with the, you know, those ligaments that are lax and then the muscles that aren't there to support it, it can be painful and uncomfortable, you know, at those like dental appointments. When I get my teeth, like when I get my do my appointments, I can't. My jaw like day after is like killing me. I get my I get migraines all the time. I don't know. I think it's premenopause. So on that note, let's talk about hormones. I mean, I think it's good to know. Like I'm so I'm thirty seven and I'm in perimenopause. So I am one of those people who s I started more on like the younger age. But I I always, you know, educate women like stop telling women that they're too young. For perimenopause because it happens, you know, in your late, you know, mid to late 30s, like you know, when it starts transitioning. So it's like I'm dealing with it now. I'm on testosterone replacement therapy because my testosterone was in the tank. You know, I'd zeroed out with my testosterone. So I've been doing that there. But for women, when we start to have like that drop in estrogen, that helps with like that muscle tone, which also helps lubrication of the joints. They start to lose that production of it. And then that it starts to really affect this joint here that we have in our jaw, as well as the muscle tone of the airway. You know, the airway is made up of muscles. And we tell women from the chest down to focus on strength and conditioning to support all of their other joints and everything. But somehow this gets forgotten, you know, that this has to be supported as well. So you see, I see it all the time from patients 40 to 55. My, you know, my sleep is bad. I'm snoring all of a sudden, you know, I'm having more jaw pain. You know, frozen shoulder, you know, all of it, you know, comes in where they're coming in for like that kind of body work there. And it absolutely has to do in that drop of t or that drop of as estrogen, you know. And then as the progesterone kind of can get unlike, you know, regulated, you know, as well. that can really start affecting like your CO2 tolerance levels. So having more shallow, short, shallow breathing, that fight or fight breathing and things like that, because you are more, you know, resistant to being able to take that slow, shallow breath in your head body's like, okay, no, breathe faster. I want more air. I'm more uncomfortable. And so we have that issue as well, you know, with with patients when they're starting to go through that perimenopause, menopause transition. There's another shock. People are gonna think about airway with this. Like that's amazing. That's a really super good connection. Because I'm even thinking because the diaphragm is a muscle and your muscle is part of your breathing. And I think about that with my myofunctional clients, but just how that works in with fascia. And then of course now I'm just thinking, why are we only thinking about from the neck down? That's okay. Okay. This is I my whole week is gonna change. Yes. Because again, I feel like everything's so siloed in healthcare. Yeah. yeah. Everything is so separated that you don't even realize how it all comes together. And then even now, like when we talk about patients, what we do now, they all look at us like they're confused and like we're crazy. Now we're gonna add this into the mix and they're gonna be like, What's wrong with you, Lauren and Tosia? Yeah. Yeah. Like like there's always something with you two, huh? Yeah. Always some It's always us. We're the problems. We are the problem and the solution. But this is why we love people like you. Because this is this is the craziest thing. Like After we talk to our pelvic floor therapist friend, and then after now talking to you, I just I love that when we get to put the fact that the body is back together, we're not siloed, right? I'm not a Lego part, like, okay, my pelvic floor doesn't have anything to do with the fascia that comes all the way up and connects. Yes, it does. Yeah. So, and I mean, hormones for me are super important because obviously, and this is a brain fog conversation I'm having with one of my friends. Who she doesn't sleep well. She's in full blown menopause. She's fifty-five. And I'm like, How's your breathing? And so today she was watching me do a myofunctional client on Zoom. And she's like, I d I can't do any of the things you're asking that person to do with my tongue and my swallow. And I was like, All right, let me see it. And I'm like, let's talk. Because you think about lymphatic drainage. You think about gymphatic drainage. You think about like when I hear the crunch of somebody in C one, C2. Now I know there's a swallowing issue because it's like your soft palate's not doing the pump. And if your diaphragm's not moving everything, how are you going to get all of that in there? Like when you put these puzzle pieces together, people do say, but it takes 15 minutes to get them down that trail, right? So Yeah, and it's and it's usually too. It's like they're also telling you, you know, okay, well, this provider said this and this provider said this and then this provider said this, and then now can you tie all of that together for me with all this? And like, wait, now you're telling me to go see this for you know, and it's just like like I I every time I'm like, How much time, money, and finances do you have? That will tell us how deep down this rabbit hole we can go. Because if you just want to be like, I am here for you to massage my jaw, do this, I can walk out of here feeling relaxed, don't talk to me about anything else. Cool. I'm not gonna waste your time in your appointment with that. It as we like go along or they start to see, you know, the free, you know, like ebooks they have and then dive into it. And then the next time they come in, well, you know, well, you know, I did like read that and I saw like your one Instagram post. So like what like about that? You know, it's like they get like a little bit more curious, like every single time, you know, that they come back. And that's what I like, that's what I that's what I love the most. Like just plant the seed and walk away. Sometimes that's just what you have to do. Great. Because if you keep pestering someone about it, they're just gonna be like, Well, no. Like you're you're demanding too much for me. I I don't have this. I can't do this. So I'm just like it's resistance. That's it. And I think it's not that people don't want to. It's just they feel overwhelmed, right? And I think if you let them come to their own conclusions, like dealing with a kid or a husband, you're just like, sure. Dishes do seem better put away. Yeah. Like something like that. Yeah. Well, and I think I think what's so hard too, which I I totally get it because I'm the person too. It's it's always the well, does insurance cover this? Because it's so expensive. Like it and I I'm like I'm honest with them. I'm like, I get it. Like I I'm all my hormone stuff and therapy. It's like I would rather have worked with this provider who I know is gonna do more, but I can't afford that. I have to use my insurance as much as I can to get as much covered. And then I can go over to like that other side. Cause like, okay, I got the blood work, I got the t like I got all of this done that insurance is able to help me do. Now let me take it over to this provider that can do a little more, even though I know I'm gonna have to pay out of pocket, you know, for this fee there. And it's in because it is, I'm a I'm a you know, a one-woman show. I can't afford to deal with insurance and the low reimbursements, you know, and things like that. I tell people, I'm like, here's the super bill, submit it. I tell I tell people submit everything because the worst case is they're gonna tell you no and you're in the boat, you know, for the money that you had to spend anyway. But I'm like, like send it to them. Like sometimes the myofunctional therapy like gets covered. You know, or they have, you know, on like FSA HSA covers all of that. It's like if you're used if it's your money, like you're already putting in there, you might well use it now, you for like this kind of service here. So it's I think that's another always a big thing right now. And there's a lot going on financially, you know, for people right now. Everything is just so more expensive. And then you got a provider coming in and telling you it's gonna be this, especially in the expansion therapy and this and braces, and you gotta work with five different body workers to be able to get it it's just like. I can't. Do you like Do you like working with the orthodontists and the expansion? And like I I imagine 'cause I have a couple of adult expansion patients who are in the rapid one. And I'm like, please go see somebody who can release the tissue around your head. Like do you you work with those people too? I mean, absolutely. I think there's a bit of lag. when it comes to like the manual therapy side, because everyone is being referred to cranial sacral therapists, which I am on board with. I think they're wonderful. I refer patients out to them because I don't do cranial sacral therapy. But I think there's a big part getting missed with like the manual therapists, like doing a lot more of like what I do with like the muscle work. I know there's plenty of cranial sacral therapists that are doing like the cranial, you know, fascial therapy. No, they are doing a little bit more, you know, like hands-on work there. So I've been working on getting, you know, more of my foot been like, but like Massage therapists too with cranial sacral therapy, you know, to be able to help, you know, work together with those patients. Mm-hmm. Cause there's so much to do. And that's a I'm just thinking about all the layers right now. Like I'm thinking about the muscles and the fascia and the dura and the what this the what the CST would be moving and it it's so nuanced and so fine and so different. Like it's amazing to me that you wouldn't just happen to help all these other things, but you think you have to spend so much time on the belly of this masseter muscle, how would you ever have time to move to the palatals or or I or even just what's underneath? I my brain just blew up a little bit. So Yeah, and I mean there's a mine's already blown because I'm just this is like your realm of like airway and all that myofunctional therapy. I'm just sitting here, I'm learning so much right now. I mean, and it's it's why I like doing like, you know, after tongue tie releases, like actual hands-on scar tissue work, you know, and things like that. But that's a big thing too, that is very different for like the connective tissue disorder community when they're getting these tongue tie releases done and how their body's gonna heal completely different. The prehab that needs to go into that community. I've had plenty of patients who Did all the myo, they did all this work and things like that, but that's all that they focused on. And they have a hypermobile neck and they have instability in their neck. And then the one thing that was holding it all together was the restriction in their lingual freedom that was keeping, even though it was creating tension, it's what kept their neck stable and things like that. And then without working on the surrounding muscles that are going to have to pick up the slack, those muscles weren't prepared. You know, when they needed to do that release. And so they feel like a bobblehead. Their symptoms get worse. Their dysautonomia suddenly might show up where they're having di you know, spells of like, you know, dizziness and nausea and their blood pressure, you know, is off. You know, they're having like all these other issues all of a sudden because that community is so different. And it's it's so there's been times where it feels like tongue tie releases have just come the quick fix. You know, you have all this tension stuff like that. Just get the tongue tie release. And it's like, You know, you can't even do that with the regular, you know, population. You know, there's so much that needs to go into it. But when you're hypermobile and have actual connective tissue disorders, there is our our Bendy bodies require always so much more work than you know than like a regular population. So if they go in and get this tongue tie release without working with PT and building up their surrounding muscles, you could actually end up causing them, you know, worse symptoms, you know, by the time they get that tongue tie release done. And they Have to have sutures. It's not a choice. Otherwise, their their wound, it's going to take longer to heal. That's just how it is. But it has a lot harder time coming to back together. And so they have to have sutures to support that. Or otherwise, they have almost like this indent that they have because the tissue can't come back together the way that you know it needs to be able to do. We we have to do, you know, a lot slower approach. And then as the wound closes, then we can get more aggressive, you know, with the tissue. And so they require so much more work up, you know, up front. And then their recovery is completely different when they're dealing with a connective tissue disorder after a tongue tie release. Wow. How do people know? Like do people come into you knowing they have EDS or something else? Or is there a test? Like, how does the average like I'm thinking about in my office, we don't do sutures. And there is a woman who I must be a hypermobile patient because her connected and her connective tissue just she had the Worst, she's gonna need a revision. Like, and is this something that we missed? How do we do that? Like, and to see it doesn't work in an airway-focused office. What would she notice? Like, what's the signs and symptoms that you would tell her? I am the airway-focused part of my office. Yeah, I mean, so for like, you know, the common thing that you see a lot with like people arguably is, you know, you hear about like the very stretchy skin, you know, they can literally take on body parts of the skin and just pull it and it's very stretchy. You know, it can be on the neck. You'll see it like on the elbows. Like I don't I don't have that aspect of of hypermobility. I like to call this muscle. Yeah. Well you could just say you're hypermobile now. Like yeah, it's just very loose to see it's connected tissue. That's that's why that's like looking like that. That's what I say at least. This actually hurts when I do this. My muscle's so tight. But I think like for most like hygienists, for example, like the majority of us don't work in airway focused offices. So when I'm doing my assessments, a lot of times like when you don't have everyone on board, now I'm just kind of like, what am I looking for? Who am I referring to? Because there now you've I have ADHD. Now you've created a whole other mess in my head where I'm gonna be like, my God, now I have so many more questions And it is. I feel like TMJ and all that is like a lot of us don't know who to refer to. There's in Michigan, like where I am, there's not a lot of places to refer to. And again, it's an insurance thing. Some patients will go. They'll be like, well, it was expensive. And it's like, well, like, this is your health. Yeah. I mean health is expensive. Like, yeah. Yeah. And and so, you know, you're looking at, you know, how, you know, certain, you know The biting score is one, it's it's a limited one, but it does. It lets you let you look at like the heck extension of like the elbows, you got your thumbs there, we have the thumb like down to the wrist, you know, things like that. But a lot of people too, if it's like the connective tissue with like the hypermobility, they also, you know, have a lot, you know, issues kind of with more like the MCAS and the POTS and stomach issues, you know, things like that. What is their history of past scarring? You know, how is their scarring healed? That's a huge thing you want to ask, you know, anyone. Especially too because in certain communities they do just deal with like keloid scarring whereas excess scarring that we're dealing with. And so knowing that we're going to need sutures, we're gonna need serapeptades, we're gonna need very, you know, more aggressive like manual therapy, probably some laser treatments, you know, to be able to like, you know, we're we're gonna have to, you know, go at it, you know, aggressively, you know, because their body's gonna form, you know, form that extra sc you know scar tissue. So you've gotta know how to, you know, to be able to handle it. And with, you know, like the the tongue tie release too, it is. It's it's working with, you know, a myofunctional therapist or a PT or massage therapist who has that additional knowledge about hypermobility, you know, and being able to address that as well. How was their compliance? You know, that's a huge thing with post-op care. Like in my post-op care for tongue tie releases, you know, it's two weeks of that and I have patients send me a photo every single day of their tongue up on the spot so I can see how they're healing, especially if they have the hypermobility or the history of the keloid scarring. You know, we have to keep like a very close eye on that, you know, when it comes to it. If they're, you know, doing like any of like the sutures and your provider only puts in one or two and they just pop out just like that, that can be a sign that that tissue has some hyper, you know, mobility in it because they they just don't stay, you know, in like that tissue as well. in their history of scarring. If they have, you know, scarring that's almost like very loose and kind of like dipped down, it has like that like look to it. You know, it's not like this, you know, just a line of a scar tissue. And then keloid scarring, just a big rough, bumpy scarring, you know, that they have there. Like those are all things that you want to like keep an eye on, you know, for before going into like a tongue tie release. Cause Even though the and everything in the mouth does heal faster, it does heal better because it has a great, you know, kind of environment to work in if the you know the environment is right. But it's still gonna be scar tissue. The second you you put a you know an incision into someone, they're going to deal with scar tissue. So having a very good understanding of how their body's gonna respond to it and regular population, the hypermobile population, the keloid scarring, like that is huge when it comes to like their function for after that tongue tie release. So very good screening. That's what we need. Good screening. For all the dental hygienists out there, the healthcare hygienists out there, how in the name of God are we supposed to do all of this in an hour? I'm not gonna be like, okay, put your arm out, guys. I'm gonna like pull on the skin. I wonder if we could do something. What about what's in the mouth? Like, what about when we do the oral cancer screening, we pull on their tongue? Would the tongue come further? Would the cheeks do something weird? Cause we're all inserted. Yeah. Yeah, there's there's absolutely people who have hypermobile tongues, you know. And a lot of that has to do with the connective tissue because the t you know, the tongue connects down to the hyoid bone. And the hyoid bone depends all on the muscles, you know, and the tendons that connect to it. And if so they have that connective tissue disorder, they have a lot more mobility, like in, you know, down in the throat here that you can really push it really, really far. You know, when you're doing that there. That can be that sign of, you know, that excess, you know, mobility that we have like down like in the hyoid bone. Doing their max open. Can they open 45, 50, 50 plus, you know, with that range of motion there? Now, with that one, that doesn't mean they might have a connective tissue disorder, but it just means that there's excess laxity in that joint. Is that f did they have an injury, an accident? You know, or is talking part of their career? So they're moving all the time and that ligament just gets a lot of extra, you know, movement there. Really important. Like, yeah, people with hypermobile tongues, they'll stick that tongue out and it's it's like you s like the one like kiss the guitarist. Like it's like it comes way, way out. Like you see those there, like when it comes to those hypermobile tongues, you know, with everything. But those are like quick little things. They can have a you know, if they have the stretchy skin, they can grab, you know, the skin on the neck. Can they pull it really far out, you know, and things like that there. Like those are all quite quick little things, you know, that you're able to look for. To see if there's any hypermobility, you know, whether it's from the ligament or if it's more of a connected tissue disorder that's giving them that hypermobility. I hope everyone's watching this on YouTube. Because me and Lauren here are just we're we're doing a lot of wide eyed. You know, wide eyed we're opening our mouths, we're pilling our skin on our necks, on our arms. Like this is fantastic. I don't We don't pass any of the tests. No, we don't. But I used to be able to pop my hips out of place, but I think the older I've gotten and I'm of a certain age, I can't do that anymore. I'm like, I'm getting stiff. I need more estrogen, apparently. Okay. My hip pops out of place naturally when I lift like if I'm doing Pilates or something. Like if I lift my one leg, my it and when I put it down, like it just pops. I thought that was old age. We kind of think when if you're someone's hypermobile, that that must mean you you can just your range of motion can just be out of this world. And for a lot of people who are hypermobile, they're actually really tight intense. Like d I can't touch my toes for my life to depend on it and things like that. But I can do prayer hands behind my back. I can honestly show you like my fingers, like you know, with what I can do here. I can show you how extra you know, but. Anything like, yeah, touching my toes, doing things like that, where my palms are flat on the ground, I cannot do that. And it's because of the laxity that I have in my ligaments that my muscles are tighter. They have to compensate for that laxity. And so that flexibility, you lose that flexibility, you know, that you should be able to have. It's why doing manual therapy or doing stretches when you're that hypermobile flare you up. Because those muscles that have worked really hard to guard and provide stability have now lost it. And now you feel that, you know, that looseness all over again. And your muscles are like, great, you took away all my stability. Now I gotta tighten back up again to be able to provide stability. So there's a lot of people that, yeah, like, yeah, once you know we get to a certain age, you know, yeah, I used to be flexible, you know, yeah, I was a cheerleader, I was a gymnast and stuff like that. Yeah, now I can't move, you know, and things like that. And a lot of that too, because People are just flexible. There's people that are flexible and they have no pain, no discomfort. That's great. Also, I can do the splits, but I have to stretch. Yeah. Yeah. How does all of how would a flare or like if you've worked out a buccinator, a mastodor, a pterygoid, how would that show up in a dental situation? Or how would that show up like where we are working? And how can we help identify something like that? If somebody went to you and then saw us two days later and they're like, I'm a face or whatever, what would what would happen? I mean, if if they're if their jaw is hypermobile, they're gonna they're gonna open up like no big problem. And it's gonna be a lot of more pain discomfort, especially in the actual joint, like you know, itself. Or the muscles here are gonna be like, Hey, I'm gonna go on guard, we're not gonna do that again. And so we're gonna tighten up, you know, really tight here, you know, and create like that that spasm. We're like, I can't open, you know, anymore and things like that. You gotta think too, the nervous system. Like if anyone's like, every time I go to the dentist, my jaw hurts really bad afterwards. So just them even before going into the appointment, that nervous system gets, you know, flared up, it gets all riled up, and it's like, I'm not gonna let you open. I'm gonna put you, you know, I'm gonna guard everything for you. And so they come in and it's like safety. Like, you know, their nervous system is trying to protect them from another injury because it's happened before. So you know, yeah. Yeah. These are the patients that. That we all hate in dentistry where it's like, okay, open. Yeah. Yeah. I am open. Uh-huh. Or I wonder, I'm even thinking about the ones who cause obviously oral facial myology, it's like, huh, you know, these people who their lift goes over and we're fighting the obicularisorus. I want to know a little a little manipulation to let that go. Like, how can I I'll be like, 'cause I'm always grabbing on people's lift and like shake it and Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's difficult. It's it's like nervous system work. Like their nervous system has to feel safe. If they're in a fight or flight stance, like every dental appointment has been bad, it's been negative, their nervous system's gonna go on guard. So it ri and it is. It's working like you said, like gaining trust from someone from you on an hour, like the I I work with people for two hours and it can take them 90 minutes before their body finally trusts me when we're doing when I'm doing body work. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And their body's like, no, I can't relax. This is bad. Every time I'm here, something bad happens. It's negative. So I'm not going to relax. Like your body is like finds a way to protect you, even if it ends up hurting you more, you know, because it's it's it's like I'm not gonna let this happen again. We try, we try so hard to be like, listen, your bad experience is not with us. Yeah, please tell, please tell little Jessica that she's okay, you know, she's fine. This new hygienist that you have will will be nice to you. Right? It's like, we talk about home like look, Jessica knows, but Patricia doesn't, okay? That wasn't me. That was Patricia's. Okay. I don't know what to tell you guys. So I have a question, like, because I have a hard time like with where to refer what to do. Like if you have say a woman comes in, there's clenching, their jaw hurts, they're getting migraines, they're snoring, they can't open very wide. Where do you start? I mean, if they're I mean if they're in your office, like where you're doing like the airway, you know, assessment, like I mean, absolutely, like start there. Like what's your airway looking like? Cause when whenever people tell me I I c my clinching and grinding is at nighttime, you know, and things like that. Well, what'd your dentist say? Well, he says it's just stress. And my question always is, but what are you stressed about while sleeping? Because you're not supposed to be stressed when you're sleeping. So I am going to look at airway first. It's it is. If you say it is clinching and grinding at nighttime, I'm going to look at that. Granted, too, if I in my assessment, if I start to notice like there's some hypermobility, you know, joint laxity in the neck, is your cervical spine not being supported at nighttime? So your jaw muscles are making up for it, you know, and providing some of that stability. Cause when we Is that on like a pillow or What would happen with Yeah, like if yeah, if they don't have a properly fitted pillow that helps actually support their cervical spine. So if it's, you too big, it's clinching, if it's, you know, too collapsed down, you know, they're squeezed up like this, you know, there could be instability going on in the neck and the jaw really likes to compensate for that. Cause when we clinch, it tightens up the muscles in the front of the neck and it stabilizes, it brings stability to the neck there. So when people tell me more, well, no, I I you know, I d I don't wake up with sore muscles, stuff like that. I don't snore, you know. Obviously I chat with women that, you know, f it's a lot more, you know, it can be more upper airway with women versus what the typical sleep apnea is, you know, and things like that. If they're very, you know, adamant, like it it's not that, because some people do not want to admit that they snore, that they have sleep apnea. It's an embarrassing thing to say I'm a mouth breather. And it's just like, all right, that's fine. Okay, let's look at, you know, it this way, you know, and so is it now more instability in the actual sort of look is fine? Is it more the hormones and things like that? More women are opening up to the conversation of hormone therapy, you know, with with everything. They're starting to become comfortable for it. They're starting to realize they don't have to suffer, you know, anymore. And so when I say, Hey, here, I know, I know you're 40, but as someone who's 37 in impairing menopause, like it's it could be time. And so I do a lot of directing, you know, with patients. Like I, okay, you go to the airway provider, you know, because you can't see me if you're not breathing at night. So I need you to get your airway addressed first. That is the number one thing to do because we have to be able to breathe. Okay, you got your airway, you know, figured out too. All right, depending on like your age, symptoms like that. Now I want you to go see like this hormone doctor, you know, let's get your hormones and your blood work done, you know, and things like that. Where, all right, we clearly saw that you have some, you know, instability with your joints. We have some joint laxity. I want you to see this PT, you know, to be able to work on muscle strength or a personal trainer who can work on the muscles and support it. So if they're coming in with that, yeah, nighttime clenching, grinding, I'm in my perimetopolies, stuff like that. I start with the airway because you have to breathe to see other providers. That's the number one thing. Get to the airway. Yeah. Yeah. And then even then, when you come to airway, then we have to assess the four pillars, right? Like, okay, what's a ca what's affecting is it your nose? Is it nasal breathing? Is it your lip seal? Is it your tongue posture? So what's happening here? So then now it becomes even more nuanced and more layered, which is what's Fascinating for us as providers and freaking frustrating for the patient. Because I think even though obviously the people who deal with people like us know that there is no ill, no quick fix, no just snap it, crack it, fix it, you're still like, God damn it, one more thing. Like one more thing. Yeah. And I feel like that's what happens with, especially with women, because it's like Toners, lotions, potions, masks, you know, ki whatever we're doing. And then it's like, and you want me to do a goua shaw lymphatic, you know, whatever. And don't I'm like, we don't need to be resistant. And I tell people this all the time. We are classic cars. We the older we get, the more time we need in the shop, and the more lube we need to keep moving smoothly. And people are always like, what? But it makes sense. We're a machine. Yeah, we're a machine, right? And and these we have to go to different types of specialists. So I mean, I I don't even know how I'm gonna incorporate this on Monday. I mean, I feel like we need to put together like the patient questionnaires are so basic in dentistry. I almost wanna make my own where it's gonna have like different sections. Now I'm gonna add this section. We're gonna have like a hormone section. There's good there has to be different sections because then that's where the whole collaboration comes in. If we can break it down, then we know where to refer. Or what are they interested in? Like I was saying, we were talking to someone else that does a lot of like health coaching and carotid artery scanning in office. And it's like, how do you do that? What do the patients say? And it's all part of their medical questionnaires. So you have to have all this done before, right? Like I'm thinking it All of these kind of really intense questions that people actually need to think about. Because even when we talk about airway, and I have to ask people, Do you do you know how long you were breastfed or bottle fed? People don't know. They to call their mom the next day and be hey, and then what if your mom is gone? You know, what whatever. So it's like these are the kind of things that I feel like, Tosia, to your point, if we created, especially from every one of our kick-ass guests we keep having, we would have the best. ADHD. Best most thorough. Because now I I have airway, but I don't I talk about TMJ Increpitus and maybe deviation, but I've never asked anyone about EDS. I've never asked about hypermobility. this is all and I don't know exactly how to work hormones in. Obviously, we can kind of guess by like burning mouth or their age or kind of mouth breathing and whatever, but it's all. Extremely interesting. And now we have somebody do you work virtually? How do you you can I do I do yeah I so I do like the myofunctional therapy and things like that, you know, I I do you know all that virtual care. I have like if people like you know are are not in Colorado for the body work, I have a self-guided TMJ massage course that patients can buy. And it's 15 plus self-massage techniques. Like so patients can learn how to do it all themselves. I it included if there's like breathing exercises, jaw and tongue stability exercises. And that way, if you know, for patients, they can they can manage it on their own if they don't have access to someone. Or again, the the cost to come see someone, you know, when it has when you're getting into that specialty. It's so I I have the ability for patients to be like. Let me try a lot of DIY on my own. And I'm like, well, at least use this because it's gonna be, you know, the the way to do it, you know, and things like that. And then if you need a little bit more care, you're wanting to get more on then on that one on one, then you know, we can start doing that one-on-one care, whether it's with the myofunctional therapy, or you start coming in office and doing more of like the body work. This excites me. I just have so many ideas. My brain right now is going because it always goes at the end. Cause now I'm just like, I we we need to open like a fee for service. Office somewhere. We're going, I'm telling you, we are moving to Colorado. We are opening our collaboratives. It is coming. It's yeah. In the next five to ten years, this dream is coming to fruition. Like we've already started collaborating. We're gonna create the business plan. You're gonna be part of it. It's gonna be really, really amazing because this is such a important thing to do for the people who need it the most and they don't know they need it, right? And so we and each one of us in our three corners of the world, we can see this, but then how do we put this all together for people? And we have to make sure that all of this super important information is down in our the bio for all of this in the comments. No, this was really because like Lauren, this is like your alley. Like I do more like autoimmune, like gut health. I've learned so much today. Like this is fascinating to me because again, like you know that everything is connected, but you don't realize how connected everything is. Right. Or or or all the dots and then we're all finally starting to draw the line. Connecting to the dots. Yes. Yeah. and that's exactly what your podcast is doing. You're pulling all the dots together so we can actually start putting a line between all I don't know what we're doing sometimes. my god. Make sure that RDH under one roof hears that because we just pitched our abstract. Come on. By the time this airs, we will know if we got accepted into RDH under one roof next year or not. So but that's where and I mean one of many, exactly. All right. So we gotta wrap up at an hour. So tell Jessica, tell us where to find you. How do people get to you? Or even like your course where that you have all that information because I will be looking for that as well. And your fifteen. Add the fifteen. Do all yes. Tell us all. Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, so I have provider courses, you know, and you know, patient courses that you can get on my website at tmjology.com. And then up there I have my free ebooks, my free resources, you know, a lot of information packed on that you website for people just to learn and educate themselves, whether you know they want to just do in some research on their own or wanting to get a good idea about am I, you know, worth like that, you know, that their time and everything. I do free thirty minute discovery calls for patients as well to be able to chat with me and to see if what I have to offer can help them. But I also use it as a time where if they feel really lost, I'm like, this is your next step. Go see this person. Like, I I really do just want to help people get the best care that they can. And I I don't care if it's with me or not. I just want you to go get help, you know, with someone when you're having these symptoms. And then you can follow me on Instagram at TMJology. So I tried to stay, you know, pretty active on there with my post, giving little tips, tricks, hints, kind of things like that, just to give you a better understanding of like, could it be this? And then what do I need to go to be able to, you know, see someone, you know, for these symptoms or for this, you know, what from what I'm seeing, you know, from like these videos. Awesome. That's awesome. Hey, everybody follow Jessica at TMJS. Follow her. Sure. I want your courses because I'm going to be here. You're brain blown too. Wow. Yes. Thank you for finding us. Yes. This is a fantastic connection. I'm so excited. And we will have more conversations for sure. Absolutely. But thank you for taking the time to be here. Everyone, please follow, subscribe, like, please share. Follow us on the Unhinged Hygienis, and we will see you all again here on next Wednesday, unless there's a bonus episode, because we have bonus episodes now because we're so busy. Okay. Wednesdays are Fridays. We'll see. Yeah. All right. And remember, collaboration matters, people. Absolutely. Collaborate with people like Jessica. Let this community grow. And just remember, we're all here. We are all little dots. And let's get connected. Love that. All right. Thanks so much. Thanks, Jessica. Have a great day. Bye.