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Kids And Phone Calls After Divorce · SPLITUP

• 0:07
  Speaker: This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not legal or psychological advice.
• 0:12
  Speaker: Listening does not create a professional relationship with a split-up or any guests.
• 0:17
  Speaker: Launi and Robert are only licensed in the state of Arizona.
• 0:20
  Speaker: For legal or mental health concerns, please consult a licensed professional in your state.
• 0:26
  Speaker: Guest identities may be changed for privacy.
• 0:32
  Speaker 4: Hi, welcome back to Split Up.
• 0:33
  Speaker 4: I'm Launi Sheldon, a family law attorney from Arizona.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: And I'm Robert DiCarlo, a licensed psychologist in Arizona.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Welcome.
• 0:41
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 0:42
  Speaker 4: So today we've got kind of an interesting topic.
• 0:44
  Speaker 4: Well, I think all of our topics are interesting, but this one I think we might get a little bit of kickback on.
• 0:50
  Speaker 4: It's should the children of a split relationship be able to call the other parent?
• 0:58
  Speaker 4: And I always think, and I think most other people think the answer is of course they should.
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: Like, why would they not be?
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: But you know, anyone who works in family court knows that there's it's not that simple, right?
• 1:13
  Speaker 4: Instead of just a yes or no, it's like, well, why are they calling?
• 1:17
  Speaker 4: How long did they talk?
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: Um, did someone refuse a call?
• 1:22
  Speaker 4: Like, we take in all that information as attorneys and we will use it for someone's case, whether someone's listening in, whether someone's recording it, uh, whether there's a third degree on the phone.
• 1:34
  Speaker 4: Um, did someone refuse the call?
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: Was the call even private?
• 1:39
  Speaker 4: Did the kid run in a room or did the kid, you know, was the kid forced to be in the kitchen with the other parent?
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: Is the parent answering questions?
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: This one we get a lot.
• 1:48
  Speaker 4: Is the parent answering the questions that the other parent is asking the child because maybe they have their computer on the kitchen table and it's a FaceTime?
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: So um, something that should maybe take five minutes can really cause a lot of conflict in families.
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: So, Robert, I want to talk to you about why phone calls do become such an enormous issue.
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: And and then we're gonna kind of walk through, I think, and talk about some specifics because I know I want to give some legal info on what we do.
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: And I also have personal experience.
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: So go ahead and take off with that.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks, Launi, for bringing up this topic.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: You know, coming from the therapeutic side of things, or even as an evaluator doing family court evaluations, I'm really hard pressed to find a case that doesn't have some sort of conflict around telephone calls.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: So I get really kind of frustrated when these things come up because, you know, they occupy so much of the family's time, or it's one of the things it occupies a lot of their time in fighting about.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: Um, but in my experience, and Launi, maybe you have this as well, but telephone calls are usually much less about the children and more about the parents.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: It's almost as if the phone calls themselves become symbolic in a way.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: So it for the parent, it repres represents things like I still matter, or I still have access to my kid, or I still even have influence over what they're doing.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's I still know what's happening, um, or kind of bigger, stronger feelings around it, like feeling like they're not replaced or the parents not replaced.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: So when parents might be grieving or angry or fearful or even distrustful, uh, that miss phone call rarely feels like just a miss phone call.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: It can be like a whole rejection, like a loss or feeling disrespected, feeling a lack of control, or maybe even like a feeling of being punished by the other parent.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Also, in my experience, the children usually aren't experiencing the phone call in that way.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: They're often just trying to live in whichever home they're at that day.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: So, you know, again, telephone calls are usually less about the kids and more about the parents' need or emotional, um, emotional need that's not being met.
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: Okay, so I do want to share a video, and this is kind of what brought this up.
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: I found this video, my algorithm, you guys, is of course all divorce stuff.
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: And I'm gonna do another podcast on a lot of that stuff because it's crazy.
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: Um, or listen, I'm sure Robert's gonna say, don't call stuff like that crazy, but it's crazy.
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: There's some craziness out there.
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: But I wanted to play this clip because um I wanted Robert to answer specifically what like is this normal?
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: Is this okay?
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: Is this is this what should happen in a phone call?
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: And um I I feel like probably not.
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: Um, but all right, I'm gonna try this.
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: This is the first time we've actually shared a video doing a podcast, I think.
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: So I'm going to do my best.
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: Um and I'm gonna try and share this.
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: All right, Robert, can you see that okay?
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: Yep, we're good.
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: Start it over.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: I call the kids every day after school.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: When he has them and he picks them up on Thursdays, I call them after school.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: I asked them how their how their day was.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: If they ate lunch at school, what their lunch was, did you eat breakfast?
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Did you turn in your form?
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Just your everyday, you know, duties on Thursdays.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: I'll call right after school and then I'll call again before bed.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: Usually it's about eight o'clock.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: So I call them, ask them how their day was, if they ate dinner, they ate all their dinner, um, you know, remind them, brush your teeth, you know.
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: Hey Robert, I want you to look at the judge's face too when she's saying this.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Did you wash your hair?
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: My daughter has a she fights all the time about washing her hair.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Just those everyday you know, duties that I do as a mom with the kids here, you know, I have the same conversation with them over the phone with him.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: Um, but not with him, with the kids.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: Him and I barely communicate.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: Um, when there is any differences between him and I, it's because there's like background noise or he's talking or they're talking while I'm talking to the kids.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: And I say, You guys are over talking to me, I'm trying to talk to the kids.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: On the weekends.
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: Thursday you call them twice, Friday you call him twice, Saturday you call him once, twice.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: Saturday I usually call them three times.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: I call them in the morning to tell them good morning.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: Um, ask him, you know, if they ate if they're gonna eat break or if they ate breakfast.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: It's just a daily, I don't know, thing for me.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: So it's not I just ask them and then I'll call them in the middle of the day to let them know I'm thinking of them and what they're doing.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: Are you having fun?
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: Okay, blah, blah, blah.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: Don't forget, you know, my son and my daughter have had like recent injuries.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: So I'm like, don't forget, put your foot up, put it on ice or whatever.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: And then I'll call them like I call the kids every all right.
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: So um, what do you think about that person?
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I was watching the judge's face.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, I it it's always interesting, Launi.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: You know, when you're watching judges and whether you're in court or watching clips like this, you you try to kind of get a sense of how the judge might be receiving that information.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: She stayed pretty neutral.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: She wasn't really showing her her uh card so much.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: What do you think?
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: Well, I I got when there was a look that she gave at one point that was like, what are you doing?
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: And and by the way, I I don't want to pick on this mom because I don't think that this is not uncommon.
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: So I do want to say that it's not uncommon for people to do this and for especially moms, I think, to feel like they need to do this, to to continue the care even when the kids are outside the home.
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: So I don't want to dog on this woman.
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: I feel I feel terrible that she feels the need to do that, and I don't want to make her feel bad because this she's not the only one out there doing this.
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: Trust me, she's not the only one out there doing this.
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: There's I'll tell some other stories later, but oh yeah.
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: But the the judge did look a little bit um there were just it just seemed like she just was like, what?
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: Like you're calling that much?
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: So you and like wanted to kind of go on, but maybe that was just me reading more into it.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and and I think to your point, and we're we're not going to be picking on this, mom.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: This is uh an issue that again comes up in a lot of cases.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: And I don't believe the problem is whether a parent cares if their child ate dinner.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: Of course, the parents care.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: The question that I'm interested in and understanding is what job is the phone call serving?
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: Is the call about connecting with your child, or is it about continuing to parent the other parent's household?
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: So think about those questions.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: What did you have for dinner?
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Did you eat everything?
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: Did you brush your teeth?
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: If you were to take any one of those questions that were asked individually, none of those would sound alarming.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: But if you look at this as an event or a practice that's happening every evening, where every evening call becomes an inspection of whether that parent who has the children completed parenting tasks correctly, the child is going to start receiving a really subtle message.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: And that's I'm checking whether the other house is doing things right.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: And I tell parents this all the time, whether they believe me or not.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: Children are remarkably sensitive to those types of cues, and they begin feeling like they're reporting rather than simply talking.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: And you really see how that dynamic shifts when kids start to feel like they are a reporting instrument for their parent.
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: So it's not just about the vegetables and the toothbrushes.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: This is this is about psychological boundaries.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: So when children move between two homes, they need permission to let each parent actually parent during their own parenting time.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean that the other parent you're not with stops caring.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: It means the caring doesn't require supervision from that vantage point or that distance.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: So, and and that makes me, I really want to say something important because I know many parents listening have been separated from their children for the very first time in their lives.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: Missing your child is real.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: We're not minimizing or diminishing that.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: Wanting to hear their voice is real, and that's not a criticism either.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: What I'm asking parents to consider is whether the phone call is meeting the child's emotional needs or helping us as parents manage our own anxieties.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: And those aren't always the same thing.
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think it's important because, you know, I get clients saying, well, it's my right, especially in developing parenting plans, which we'll talk about in a little bit, but um, it's their right to talk to the child.
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: It's the the my child needs me.
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: And uh those are really super real feelings, and they can be scary, scary feelings.
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: But, you know, how do we separate the parent's emotional needs from the child's developmental needs?
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, this is where I know some people may strongly disagree with me.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: So I'm gonna be really careful here.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: I'm not, first of all, saying that children should never call the other parent.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: That's not what we're advocating for.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: And I'm not even saying contact isn't important.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: I'm saying something different that healthy attachment is not measured by constant contact with your child.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: So when you look at a securely attached child, um, they need to feel safe enough to enjoy where they're where they're at, where they're living in one house or the other without continually checking in somewhere else.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: So sometimes one of the healthiest signs is that a child becomes so engaged in their normal childhood that they forget to call.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Like, think about a kid when they're playing, they're swimming, maybe they're at a friend's birthday party, they're watching a movie, maybe they're in the backyard building a fort.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: If kids still do that, I hope they are.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: Um, they're just being kids.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: And that isn't evidence that they've stopped loving that other parent that they're not with.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: It's often evidence that they feel emotionally secure.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: And I think parents miss that cue.
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: But that I don't want to say that if they're seeing that cue, that doesn't mean that they still shouldn't call, right?
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: No, not at all.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: So, you know, parents naturally are going to miss their children, and children likewise naturally miss their parents.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: So both are true at the same time.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: The question isn't whether people miss each other, the question is whether the adults require children to manage those feelings.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Again, children shouldn't become responsible for regulating a parent's loneliness or even their anxiety or giving them excessive reassurance.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: We look at that, that type of behavior for kids.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: That's too heavy of a job for them.
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: And I do want to kind of impart with what the video that we saw.
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: Um, we didn't hear how old the kids were.
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: And so we don't really know what their development was, if there's any developmental delays.
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: Like we don't know any of that.
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: And that's something that you really take into consideration when you make a parenting plan.
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: Um, but I did want to talk impart a story here of a case that I had where there was a parent, um, I believe it was the dad, that was calling the child every night to do prayers and read a bedtime story.
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: And I, as the attorney and a mom freaked out, like what an invasive, you know, thing to do.
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: Like, you can have a five-minute call before bed if you want to say goodnight, but you're not gonna do my story time reading and you're not gonna do my prayer night or whatever.
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: So um I'm I think developmentally um that's gonna be different, like how much time a kid needs, but I don't ever think that they need that kind of time.
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: So can you kind of address developmental and then that much time?
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'll hit on the specific example you gave.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: Uh a scenario like that where you have a parent calling and maybe doing evening prayers or a goodnight ritual, that would be fine if the co-parents have an agreement that that's acceptable.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: But we always are balancing that cost benefit of if it's going to be disruptive and create more co-parenting conflict, you have to look at that as potentially spilling over to the child, which then really offsets any benefit that they might receive from hearing from that parent.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: So that's what I would help that family look at is the cost benefit of engaging in that behavior.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Because again, if the two parents are in agreement and that's part of their ritual that they've always had and they want to support that, great, as long as it's not causing a disruption.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: But as it relates to the point you made after that, you're right.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: This is not a one size fits all piece of advice or assessment of the situation.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: The age and development really changes the equation here.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: So I'll just run through a couple examples, Launi.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: You know, an infant or toddler has very different needs than a teenager.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Um, likewise, a preschooler may benefit from short, you know, more predictable contact because of object permanence and separation.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Those are still things that are developing at those ages.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Um, and then you move to more like an elementary age child who often benefits from consistency while also, again, having that permission to become absorbed in everyday kid life.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: Um, adolescents are are challenging because they're usually seeking increased independence.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: So they may text one day and call another.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: They may not reach out because they're with friends or focused on activities.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: That doesn't automatically reflect the strength of the relationship.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: And Launi, I'm sure you can attest to this too, but teenage issues across households tend to create and generate a lot of conflict because parents read into uh behaviors and developmental milestones that are totally normal and appropriate, like teenagers seeking more autonomy, teenagers breaking rules and sort of testing boundaries.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: It's not necessarily a sign of a parent-child contact problem or resistance or things like that, or even alienation by a parent.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: It could just be developmentally appropriate.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: So, you know, when someone says children should call every day or children don't need to call at all, I'd say those are those are too absolute.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: They're too far on ends of the spectrum.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: So the healthier question is always going to be what supports this child's developmental stage, emotional security, daily life?
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: And then, Launi, to your earlier point, maybe they have specific circumstances or rituals that are acceptable across the households.
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't even think of the ritual thing because I was I was so offended by somebody doing that.
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: My client didn't want it to happen.
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: I mean, the guy was staying on the phone with the child for like a half an hour and it's like bedtime half an hour.
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: And in my mind, that's such a good bonding time between a parent and kid.
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: Like that that's I loved that time with my kids.
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: Um so I you went to the nice way where it was like, oh, it's fine, everybody agrees.
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: And I'm like, no.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Um but I well to be fair, if they're in agreement, they probably wouldn't be our clients.
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: That's true.
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's true.
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: Um, I do I I do think that um I have a question kind of on how to put that in a parenting plan.
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: And I I actually created a parenting plan, it's online or a video on parenting plans, and it's online and available.
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: But I I'm not sure how directly I talked about creating the telephone contact.
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: I know I did a section on it and I put a section in my book, but I don't know.
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: I would love to hear your perspective on how you think wording maybe could be.
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: And I know I'm just throwing this out here, so I'm not even giving you any time to look at it, but what do you think like some wording could be on a parenting plan for phone calls to make sure that it grows with the age?
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: Because a three-month-old is not gonna be on the phone for 10 minutes.
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: Um, and I know sometimes we put in there like um a reason reasonable amount of time, but could it be like a minute per year of the age of the child?
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: Like, is there anything that you and again, there's there's obviously going to be the outliers, but is there something like that that you could put on there?
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: If I could wave a magic wand and make things a way that I think might be really helpful for families, assuming they can emotionally get there, is that I would say all contact with the parent they're not spending with time with is going to be child initiated.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: So if a child calls and they wish to call and they initiate the call, that would be totally appropriate.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: And if they don't happen to get the other parent, nobody makes a fuss about it, right?
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: It's they weren't available, but everybody makes their best effort.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: But that would exist in families where we don't have distrust issues or believing negative assumptions or that their intentions are malicious.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: Um, you know, when you add those layers, it becomes much more complicated.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: So too does the parenting time language or parenting plan language.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: So, you know, it is such a case-by-case situation.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: But if you do have to have structured parenting time, um I would have the language reflect really clear and objective markers, like between the hours of 7 and 8 p.m., there'll be a 10 to 15 minute phone call.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: If you're really insistent on speaking to your child and you you feel that that is the only way that um you might um maintain appropriate connection with the child rather than just letting them have their time with the other parent, um, I would just be really clear and objective about it.
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: Now, let me ask you this, because you did put something in there that that came up in a case not that long ago for me, and you're saying um put in there you know the hour and for 10 or 15 minutes.
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: And let's say you say that there's a 15-minute block.
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: How does the person if if the if the parent on the phone consistently goes over that to a half an hour, to 45 minutes, to an hour, just like making stuff up, going and getting like these question cards that I have somewhere, you know, that where you're just asking questions or you're just doing puzzles or whatever together.
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: Um how does that how do you get that person off the phone gently so that the maybe the child's not so bothered and you're not forcing the child to end the call?
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: Because what we had in our case was like, well, mom's forcing me to end the call, or mom or dad or whoever it was would have to, you know, be the bad guy and um and and and force the end of the call.
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: Like it's been 15 minutes, you need to get off the phone.
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: And do you want to say that to a six-year-old, like, why do I only get to talk to dad for 16 minutes or 15 minutes?
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: And why do I, you know, why can't we talk as long as we want?
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: And does the kid really want to talk that long, or is it just that the other parents trying to make it, you know, something?
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so many factors for the parent to consider and and why it's so overwhelming and why oftentimes there's not necessarily a right or wrong answer.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: It's sort of again, case by case, or even situation by situation.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: So my advice is to be first off proactive.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Um you need to check with your court orders and see what the parameters are for phone calls if they are described, and you need to be following those before anything else.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: If a parent or the child is initiating a lengthening of those phone calls beyond what's legally permitted, um, that's one issue.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Another issue is just what's reasonably, you know, appropriate.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: Um, on that process.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: Particular phone call when you're recognizing it, I would try to find the most graceful way to end the call.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: But if you can't, maybe consider that's not going to be the one that you set the boundary on.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: You've you you sort of now know that these phone calls are becoming inappropriate, and then you address it at the co-parenting level.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: That could look like reaching out to your co-parent, explaining the situation and why it's either in violation of the court order or perhaps it just doesn't even feel appropriate anymore, and coming up with a collaborative plan on how to end calls.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: If that fails, then you might need to be a little bit more assertive and say, moving forward, if the call goes beyond a certain time, um, I'm going to jump in and disconnect the call.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: And we'll say goodbye quickly and we'll make sure you have a quick moment to wrap up and then and then we'll end the call.
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's that's kind of what we had talked to the client about, but but then the other parent was saying, they're interrupting our phone calls.
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: And so it it can get ugly, and we know that it can get ugly.
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: And if it does, you know, paper it, make sure that you are emailing the other parent, make sure that you're uh texting or whatever, and that you're you're really putting it in your planner and and you know, split up has our planner, put it in your planner and make sure that you detail that um so that you're keeping the evidence because you may have to go back to court.
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: And you don't want to, especially over something like this, but that's a different issue.
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: That's a more of a controlling issue, I think, where someone's just trying to be a jerk.
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: Um at least in the case that I was on, that's what they were doing.
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: So um just make sure that you keep your receipts.
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: And I kind of wanted to go on to talk about that kind of behavior, is is clearly a problematic behavior.
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: But when a family is functioning correctly, um, or and I I shouldn't say correctly, that's a terrible way to say it, but um maybe at the highest level of of trust and we're in the best interest of the child, which is not always easy to meet.
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: Um, are there any like what might that look like?
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: Are there any things that we could look at and say that's a good um indicator?
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that is such a fantastic question.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: And you see this in healthy co-parenting, two household dynamics.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: So one indicator that I like to see, and it's not the only one, but it's an important one, is that you can see that the child feels comfortable contacting either parent openly and freely.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: There's no secrecy, there's no fear, there's no punishment or retribution if they do it.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: There's no kind of like set up as a loyalty test.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: Um, so if they're at one parent's house and they want to call the other, they can do that freely, and vice versa.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: There's no like size, eye rolling, nobody's questioning the child after the phone call about what was said, or um, you know, there's no punishments or or um or rewards for behaving a certain way afterwards.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: The call just happens, just like if a grandparent called, you know, nobody's gonna be putting these same parameters on it.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: And then your life moves on and continues.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: That's what emotional safety looks like.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: And, you know, certainly there could be other dynamics that we'll talk about later that um may create, you know, feelings or even uh real situations around like safety for the parent that might be on one end of that call.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: So we have to talk about that too.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: But an emotionally safe, healthy functioning two-household dynamic looked like what I just described.
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: So I did have you know issues with my ex and phone calls.
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: Um and I actually approached my kids and I could tell there was a problem.
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: I could tell they were very uncomfortable talking.
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: And so I would just call and I I mean, even when I put it in parenting plans, I try and convince my clients to maybe not do it every day, maybe not on exchange days, maybe on like if it's a five, two, two, five.
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: And I would do it on the five day, maybe twice or something.
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: Um, but trying not to really push too much time.
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: And so when I had did my phone calls with my kids, I would try and do them like once or twice a week, depending on when he had them.
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: Um and it was difficult that you could tell in their voices, and I think moms know, and dads probably know that you can hear it in their voices if you listen and you try on what's kind of happening.
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: And so they would kind of hurry off in a weird way, um, or I would hear their dad or stepmom in the background telling them to get off the phone.
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: Um, gotta do something, whatever.
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: And I tried really hard not to call near dinner time.
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: Um but I asked them at one point, and you can tell me, I'm I'm sure I'm not the only one who did this, and I'm not sure it's correct.
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: And and so I asked the kids if they would maybe prefer that I don't call them because it seemed like they felt a little uncomfortable.
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: And I'm fine not calling them.
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: I just I I don't want to make them feel uncomfortable.
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: And I didn't really know how to go about that, but it was clear that they were, and then when their dad called at my house, they would grab the phone and like run into their room.
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: Like they and I would say, like it we could be at a movie and they would like freak out that they couldn't talk to them right then, or um, and it was very odd.
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: And I'm like, you can you can talk to them, you know, let's just I'll text them and tell them that you'll call them back in 20 minutes or whatever.
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: And we didn't have a time.
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: Um, but they were very anxious about making sure that they got that phone call um or that they accepted that phone call.
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: And I didn't want them to feel that way towards me.
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: So I guess I'm kind of asking you for some input on that.
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: I didn't ask you, you know, 15 years ago when it mattered.
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: Um but I'm asking you now.
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: Um, because I I'm sure I could have handled that better, but I just I didn't really know how.
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: And it just they seemed very uncomfortable with me calling them and then super anxious if their dad called them there, and I didn't care.
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: I mean, I they they knew I didn't care.
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: There was some issues going on at the other house, and so they panicked a little.
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: And so um, I did ask them, they said they want me to call, so I kept calling, but I just didn't I told them I'd call like when I didn't see them that day or something like that.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: Right, right.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: Well, I think what you described is, and and a lot of our listeners probably, whether it was 15 years ago or now, some of our listeners are going to be experiencing that very issue.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: And there's so many layers to this.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: I'll I'll try to start with the first one, which is that um when kids behave in the way that you've described, my first hypothesis would be um, without directing blame to anybody, that there's some sort of loyalty conflict occurring, right?
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: They feel loyalty or pressure to show up a certain way for each parent differently.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: And for that reason, when we ask children what their preferences are, you may not get a straightforward answer because how they answered you may be very different to how they answered dad if asked the same exact question.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: So it's sort of frustrating, it not sort of, it is extremely frustrating for parents because they may act on information and intel from their child that may be almost like a parallel universe compared to how the other parent may respond to information.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: And you could be doing contradictory things.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Again, I think it's representative of kids just not feeling relaxed and open to have that open-ended conversation with each parent because of either household's behaviors.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: So when you're a co-parent experiencing this, the best piece of advice I can give is throw out all your assumptions about what the other parent is doing or saying, because it's not going to help you in the end anyway.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: You can't really prove or disprove it.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: And so it's not actionable information.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: You don't have visibility into the house.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: Any information and intel you get from your children should be looked at at least through the lens of it, may not be the full picture, right?
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: And so encouraging, and and Launi, I actually like what you asked them.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: Do you want me to call?
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: They may tell you something that would be honest, or it could be sort of a version of honesty for them.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: Either way, you're empowering them in this regard.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: We don't want to imperil them in every situation, but them simply saying, I'm good without a call, or yes, I do like those calls, I think is very appropriate.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: Um, dad may do the same thing and ask a similar question and get a different response.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Um, but we just want to try to the best we can in these situations is eliminate the loyalty pressures for the kids and check in with ourselves as the parent.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Are we doing this because we want information about the other household or that we're micromanaging or trying to overly control the other household?
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Um, or maybe we're just being nosy, you know, and we want more information.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: If any of those are the case, it is not you're not having the call for the child.
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I I think that um I mean, in my case, I think it was an uncomfortable thing for them.
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: And and I also think that the reason they wanted the calls, which I I think, and I I've told you this before, I they thought that I was staying home pining for them, and um and they wanted to make sure that they had some kind of contact, right?
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: Like something that they could um do.
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: But you know, once I told them that I was going out and um, you know, going to see movies and going to bars and you know, whatever I wanted to do, I was going hiking or whatever, they seemed to relax a little bit.
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: Um so that was that was something too.
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: So I almost think like they wanted they didn't want to say, don't call, like I don't want to hear from you.
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: I I think they didn't want to say that, but I also didn't want to not call if they wanted me to call.
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: So it was uh it's it's not an easy thing when you know that there's some kind of shenanigans going on in the other house that's that they are talking negatively about the other parent, you know?
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and and to my earlier point, that could be true.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: That could be happening, and you will never know fully whether and to what extent that's happening, except for what the children tell you, which again may be skewed.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Um, but but again, once uh you made another point about you know, the kids maybe, you know, thinking that you're just totally bored and without things to do when they're not with you, as if your only role is to be available for them.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: I hear that a lot with parents and and especially kids, they may make assumptions that are completely incorrect about their parent that they're not seeing.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: And so, yeah, if you can show your kids that you are fine and you're doing your own thing when they're doing their thing with their other parent, uh, that does help reduce that loyalty pressure because they may feel less pressured to contact you and check in and make sure you're okay.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: Kids do kids in two household situations oftentimes will develop a less healthy skill set of overly caretaking for a parent.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: And we don't want to put them in an adultified or parentified role because some kids will do that on their own just because of their personality, even if the parent does nothing to encourage that, right?
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: It's just sort of who they are as individuals.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: And we just want to gently turn them away from those behaviors and assure them that everybody's okay.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: You can have a good time with your other parent, mom or dad's okay, everybody's fine.
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think in part it's because I was always available.
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: Like if they ever needed anything, I was, you need this, I'll take it over to you.
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: You need this, as if that's all I ever did.
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: Um, and then they would kind of get um one of them, um, would get a little taken aback that I was having fun without them.
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: So it didn't.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: But these these are all really good growing opportunities for the kids to see everybody's roles shifting, even though it's really hard and uncomfortable at first, and there's going to be some growing pains.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: It's an opportunity to teach kids uh flexibility that what we knew before is changing.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: We have a new family circumstance.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: Our family is still a family, we just look different, and some of our roles may be shifting.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: And I know we've done some talks on that too, Launi, about you know how you move into different roles and share responsibilities differently post-separation.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: Um, because historical roles certainly inform kids' expectations.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: If you are primarily the one available to your kids, there's gonna be some uh some ripple effect, right?
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: They're gonna continue to expect that until you show them there's a new division of labor.
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that that makes sense.
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: Um, I do want to go on to another issue that comes up quite frequently.
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: Um it and it's we talk about in family court all the time, is that whether the child calls or the parent calls, whoever initiates, um somebody calls, and instead of talking about their day, then it becomes an interview, right?
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: Like it becomes um sort of a little bit like what we saw, but maybe even a little more than that.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I would say these are qualitatively different sets of questions that aren't just about the child.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: They're clearly outside of the range of the child's day-to-day and and moving into what I would consider more of an interrogation about the other parent.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: So that would be questions like, what did your mom do today?
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: And and I don't mean like, you know, like maybe some somebody could ask that in a benign way, like, oh, tell me about what you and mom did today.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: When it's clearly an interrogation about the other parent, that's what I'm referring to.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: Or maybe questions like, who's there at the other parent's house?
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: Or did dad's girlfriend stay over?
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: Or what did dad say?
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Or were you yelled at?
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Did dad yell?
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: Did mom yell?
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: Um, and then like detailed things about scheduling, like what time did they leave?
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: Um, can you take a picture for me?
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Can you show me around the house with your your video camera?
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: These are not connection statements, they're information gathering.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: You are putting the child in an investigator role.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: So sometimes the child may even take that to believe that they're helping the other parent.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: And again, that might be part of the loyalty bind or pressure to help.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: But psychologically, you're pulling them into an adult conflict.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: Children should never ever become spies.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: They shouldn't become messengers or evidence collectors for you.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: That is putting them in a really difficult position that is psychologically harmful, but it's most likely going to backfire.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: So from a legal side, I've I've had this issue numerous times and I've had um cases where a parent does tell the child to spy on the other parent, or they, I'll get a video, right?
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: I'll get a video of the of the FaceTime or pictures, like still shots in the picture.
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: I don't even know how to do that.
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: Um, but you probably just press a button or you take your phone and take a picture.
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: But I think you can take a picture of the oh, you can probably do a screen capture, can't you?
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: So probably the screen capture where they're looking for alcohol in the back, or they're seeing somebody walk by in the back that maybe shouldn't be there.
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: So maybe um a boyfriend or a girlfriend who um who maybe there's an order of protection against it's a case that I've had, like they that person that was supposed to have been broken up with, there was an order of protection, but now the child the person's back.
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: And you see those things, or you see alcohol, or you see a bomb sitting on the kitchen counter and you take a screenshot.
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: Um that's not uncommon.
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: And it's so be careful.
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: One, um, but also don't put your kids in the middle of that because now that that camera's gonna have to be turned and the the child's gonna be stuck somewhere else, probably with notice.
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: No, your dad's looking in the house or your mom's looking in the house, so we're gonna turn it this way so they can only see the wall or whatever.
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: Um I think that's a problem, but we we have that happen in court pretty regularly.
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: Um, and judges don't like to see that, though they'll use the evidence if the if the evidence shows something that's not in the best interest, if there's a bond or you know, gummies and stuff sitting around that are in the kids um pos area that they can reach, uh, that's a problem.
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: So that and then spying.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: And I think there's a distinction though between a parent initiating that without the child's knowledge versus specifically enlisting the child to take recordings or move the camera around so the parent can get a better view while they're recording things that signal to the child you're doing that.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying either that doing those other things will be great for your co-parenting, right?
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: Because what you're doing is you're eroding trust.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: You may be information gathering.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: I can't say legally, because I'm not an attorney or a judge, you know, whether one offsets the other, particularly if they end up using the evidence.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: But from a co-parenting perspective, if your co-parent comes to understand that phone calls are gonna be used as information gathering or video calls are gonna be recorded in a way that are used against you, it's gonna put that co-parent on edge and impact your co-parenting relationship in ways that probably won't be helpful either.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: But each person and their attorney are gonna have to make those decisions as to how they utilize that information.
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: So let's talk about privacy, because I think privacy is a big one.
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: And I I think we need to figure out how maybe we can help people figure out how to tell their kids where to go take the phone call or why, you know.
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: So what should the child have privacy and conversations?
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: I'm going to put a little caveat there that if you're in a legal conflict and there's problems, as your lawyer, you know, I would tell my clients probably, you know, give them space unless you know that something bad is happening during that phone call.
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: And then that's a different issue that we'll talk about another time.
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: But in general, should the kid have the conversation in the family room?
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: Should the kid go to their room to talk?
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: What should happen with that?
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: Generally speaking, I think they should.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: And again, to your point, special circumstances are going to exist in every case.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: But, you know, if there are legitimate safety concerns like abuse, threats, maybe there's even court orders for supervised parenting time, those are all different special cases.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: So absent those concerns, I do believe children deserve reasonable privacy.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: So that means parents should generally shouldn't be standing right next to them.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: They shouldn't be coaching them or prompting them with answers, they shouldn't be correcting answers, uh, recording conversations, interrogating them afterwards.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: I would challenge a parent to imagine that if every phone call you had was monitored, how would you feel?
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: And and I would argue that children would feel that same amount of pressure.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: It wouldn't, it would make the conversation unnatural and not really an enjoyable experience for them.
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: And from a legal perspective, I've seen it happen on both ends, the person on the phone recording the other parent yelling answers in, and so they can't the judge will see that that parent's not letting the child have a private conversation.
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: And then I also see um I've seen where the parent on the phone is saying some really negative bad things, and so that's a different area because I do think legal actions can be taken at that time.
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: But in general, you're saying privacy is better if it's all things equal.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if all things are equal, I mean give them privacy.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: Again, it's all going to be reflective of the two household dynamic that you set up.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: For example, if you're the type of co-parents that have much more trust and respect for each other and cooperation, and there aren't these concerns, which I would argue you should all aspire for, you could be in a car driving with your kids and your co-parent can call you and you flip it onto Bluetooth or speakerphone and you know they're checking in and having a conversation.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: Nobody's putting pressure on the situation.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: It could just be a quick, you know, statement and nobody's upset.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: And you hang up and go on with your day.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: Those again would be signs that you have a healthy co-parenting dynamic, not like, oh crap, your other parents calling.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna disconnect the call really quick.
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that would be lovely.
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: I didn't experience that, um, but that would be that would be lovely.
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: I did get put on speaker phone at times so that I could be asked a question that my co-parent didn't want an answer of no to and wanted if I said no, for the kids to hear that I said no.
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: Um, so we aspire to those things, but sometimes we can't reach them.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Well, I feel very fortunate because I do have that kind of co-parenting uh relationship, and I think it is possible.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: It just requires uh a lot of work and and um and trust and respect between co parents.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: So you can get there.
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you can get well not everyone can.
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: I'm just gonna say that.
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: You can try.
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: You can try.
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: I think that's fair.
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: You need two reasonable people, I think.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: You do.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: You need two willing and reasonable people.
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: So let's what about when someone Someone just is saying, Hey, I'm just checking in to make sure everything's okay.
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: Like, is that too much?
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think this could really be simply boiled down to safety checks are one thing.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: Surveillance is something different entirely.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: Children know the difference.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: So if you're doing it as a safety check and and you do that in front of the child, I'm pretty confident they're gonna know what's happening versus surveillance feels very different.
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: So let's flip it now.
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: So now um the call, somebody calls and the call goes unanswered.
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: Um you know, maybe there's a court order that permits reasonable communication, maybe it's a specific time, but whatever it is, like if the person is refusing the call, kind of how do they how should how should each parent react when that happens?
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: Because there aren't really some good times to refuse a call.
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: I'm not gonna say that there aren't.
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: If you're right in the middle of something, um, it might be a good time to refuse the call.
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: But what should they then do if they if they've refused the call, and what should the person who is refused do?
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: Well, I'll preface it with saying that children benefit when parents support appropriate relationships with both caregivers whenever it's safe to do so.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: So if calls are routinely blocked without a legitimate reason, the kids may experience confusion, uh, again, like this sort of sense of divided loyalties, or they may just have a lot of unnecessary anxiety.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: Um, at the same time, reasonable communication doesn't necessarily mean unlimited or disruptive access.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: So children deserve uninterrupted time to participate in things like you mentioned.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's a family dinner, maybe they're at a sporting event, maybe it's their bedtime routine or ritual, maybe they're on vacation or just engaged in ordinary life.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: I think the healthy boundaries and healthy relationships can exist, they can exist together.
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I do, I do again want to point out just from the the legal aspect, if if somebody is violating a court order, if you're violating the order, um, the court can hold you on contempt.
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: I mean you're you're supposed to follow court order.
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: So I I would argue that that could be like a an alienating behavior.
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: I don't want to say alienation, but I do want to say maybe an alienating behavior.
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: Um, because if your kid keeps seeing you ignore a call, ignore a call, ignore a call, and your kid knows that's a problem.
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: And if we find that out and I'm the lawyer, I'm using it.
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: Um and the courts address communication, and and when they do, the parents should follow it.
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: And I think if if something happens to where that order isn't good anymore, you talk to the other parent, like for instance, if if the kid's like 17 and a half and working and you know, not responding for whatever reason, they're 17 and a half, there's probably a thousand reasons why they're not responding.
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: If that communication order is becoming a problem and the parents aren't on the same page, I think that you um paper it, right?
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: So send a message and say, hey, um, this is not working and um let's come up with something new that's age appropriate.
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: Because if you didn't put something in your parenting plan that shows a difference for a one-year-old and a 17-year-old, then that can cause a problem.
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: So that's that's my little tidbit on that.
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: Um I want to talk about documenting the calls.
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: Um whether it's in notebooks, calendars, spreadsheets, of course, our planners, um, screenshots, you know, everything.
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: I think Robert, what are your thoughts?
• 47:53
  Speaker 4: Let's talk about your thoughts on keeping everything.
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: Because I, from my perspective, unless you're, you know, super happily co-parenting, I want you to collect everything.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: Well, and and themes are important.
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: Like it's not any one missed call, it's a pattern, right?
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: If there's a pattern of calls being refused or, you know, missing court-ordered parenting time calls, you know, whatever it may be, there are times when documentation is appropriate.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: If you're addressing a genuine legal issue with, you know, again, repeated violations of a court order, keeping those accurate records may be really reasonable.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: And as an evaluator, it's helpful for me to kind of look at and investigate whether this is a one-off or maybe a periodic issue, because I mean, as busy parents, things get, you know, confusing.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: Uh, you can't keep schedules are sometimes inconsistent or issues come up, right?
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: But those records from an evaluative standpoint are going to be critical in somebody like myself who's conducting an investigation into the family, will find themes and patterns that might be related to something like alienation or um, or alternatively, it could be a parent is legitimately uh being protective of their child.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: But in many polarized cases, a lot of the ones that we deal with, Launi, uh, where you know there's a lot of custody disputes and parenting time misses, documentation can become another way of staying psychologically connected to the conflict.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: So every phone call becomes sort of like applying the parameters.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: It's got to be three minutes or seven minutes, or they answered late, or the other parent sounded upset, or they laughed in a weird way, or I heard them whisper in the backgrounds.
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: You know, like I've seen parents become obsessive and consumed by providing some sort of documentation instead of focusing on asking more important questions, such as like, is your child thriving?
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: You know, if your kid is happy and spending time in both households and they're doing, you know, well enough academically and socially, like, why do you care if you heard a whisper in the background or a call was answered late?
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: Like you really have to zoom out and look at big picture issues and not get too focused on the minutiae, which I think is a byproduct of feeling hurt or anger or resentment.
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: It just keeps you locked into the psychological um conflicts.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: So children will notice that too, by the way.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: They often tell me when their parents are documenting or recording calls or um, you know, uh, you know, they'll come across parents' court documents or filings.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's obvious to the kids.
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, look.
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: You have an option.
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: You have an option to keep finding every mistake to go back to court.
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: If that's what you're into, I mean, I think that's that's what you do.
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: We kind of want to show you how to not have that happen, right?
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: We want to show you how to stay out of court, even though split up has a great, you know, planning system to walk you right through, like thinking about splitting up all the way through, you know, after you receive the last order from a hearing.
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: And even even modifications, I still think at least my goal and I think Robert's too is to keep you out of court and to kind of help you figure out things that you can leave behind.
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: And so, yes, if you're litigating, I want the information.
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: I certainly don't want the kid to see the information.
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: Um, but I I want the information.
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: I don't think that I would want it to say they laughed, like that's weird, unless there's something weird that they laughed at.
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: Like my mom fell and you know, split her face open.
• 51:45
  Speaker 4: Oh, ha ha ha ha.
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: Well, that would be a problem to laugh at, I suppose.
• 51:49
  Speaker 4: Um, but I just you don't want to go overboard and you can stay in conflict forever if you want.
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: You're always gonna be able to find something, right?
• 51:59
  Speaker 4: You're always gonna be able to find something to be in conflict about.
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: You just have to decide if that's where um you really want to be.
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: So I also want to talk about um if one party saying if the child doesn't call every day, that means the other parent is alienating them or interfering with the phone call.
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: And what are your thoughts about that, Robert?
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, at the end of the day, sometimes interference does occur.
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: We see this in cases all the time.
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it doesn't.
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: So again, we talk about patterns or themes.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: A miss call by itself is not enough to conclude there's been alienation.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: Children miss calls for a ton of different reasons.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: Maybe they're busy, maybe they're asleep, they're with friends, they're at a uh sports practice, or they're just enjoying being a kid.
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: So again, these patterns are going to matter a lot more than some sort of isolated incident or moment.
• 53:00
  Speaker 4: Now, and I think this differs, by the way, between if the kid has their own phone and the kid is using the other parent's phone.
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: I think um it's much easier for the parent to ignore a call when it's on their phone than it is on the child's phone.
• 53:15
  Speaker 4: So I want you to kind of consider that too.
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: If if a kid is either, you know, sending a call to voicemail or something, they're probably in the middle of something.
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: Like don't go automatically to the negative part.
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: I mean, my kids send me to voicemail all the time.
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: Maybe I should be going to the negative side, but um, but I know they still love me.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and especially if you have teenagers, I mean, that'll be so much more true.
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: They're gonna be much more interested in talking to their peers and their parent on any day of the week.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: And so I think, and and whether you're you're analyzing your child's behavior or your co-parents' behavior, I think one of the biggest mistakes parents make is to uh assign intention.
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: So they believe they know what the other parents' intentions might be, and they act in accordance with that belief.
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: And you could be a hundred percent right about their intention or a hundred percent wrong.
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: How you respond to your belief is going to make all the difference.
• 54:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and really that's all you can control, right?
• 54:18
  Speaker 4: You can only control your actions, and you're not going to be able to control their actions.
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: So you might as well just believe the best and be like, you know, polyam.
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: And even if you believe your co-parent is the scum of the earth and the worst person in the world, um, if you practice assigning um the most generous assumption about what they're intending to do or what their behavior is, and you act in accordance with that, your responses are going to be better to them.
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: And and again, that goes into what's within your control because you're never gonna know what their true intentions are.
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: And I bet if you ask them or a professional was asking them, they would tell that person the complete opposite of what you're saying.
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and sometimes you get the um the issues where parents are concerned their kids are aren't loving them, or you know, they're not answering or they're not calling, and the other parent is making them not love them anymore.
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: And what are your thoughts on that?
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: Like, uh because I don't just I just don't think that that's true ever, or rarely, I think.
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I I don't see that.
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: In fact, I think the opposite can be true.
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: So in my experience, secure children often become fully engaged in the environment that they're in because they trust that that relationship will still be there later.
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: It's not like when they're not with one parent, that relationship just disappears.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: Love isn't measured for them by that hourly reassurance.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: They they feel securely attached, so it's not an issue.
• 55:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, they feel like they can like be bratty to the parent who they know is always going to be there.
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: They're not forever apologizing or yeah.
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: Well, and actually that's a really good example because here's uh an example where a parent may then also take that and assign a less generous assumption is that, oh, I'm the safe parent.
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: They they do that to me and they treat me this way because they're so afraid of their other parent.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: And if they do that with that other parent, uh they'll be retaliated against.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: That could be true.
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: But again, if you're giving the most generous assumption, it's just that they feel safe and secure with both parents.
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 56:23
  Speaker 4: So, what about I another one that I hear is I have the right to know everything that's going on in the house.
• 56:29
  Speaker 4: As the lawyer, I'm saying, oh no, you don't.
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: But what do you say?
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: I would, as the psychologist, I would also say, oh no, you don't.
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: So, you know, I I think what what is driving this particular behavior is parents understandably want to know that their kids are safe.
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: It's just a drive of most parents, most healthy parents.
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: Um, but children, again, are not responsible for providing intelligence reports about the other household.
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: You don't turn them into spies.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: If there is a legitimate safety concern, adults should address them through the appropriate channels.
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: That would be the legal channels or, you know, speaking to your attorney.
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: Um, at least in Arizona, I don't know about other states, but parents themselves are mandated reporters.
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: So if you're aware of abuse to your child, you do have to report it to the Department of Child Safety.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: Um, or other professional channels uh can be utilized rather than recruiting the child for intelligence gathering.
• 57:26
  Speaker 4: Okay, and I'm I want to ask you, I had this one question down, and it it sort of goes between what we're talking about today and what we talked about a couple weeks ago when we got really hammered on our comments.
• 57:36
  Speaker 4: And and by the way, all we're going to talk about those comments in another podcast because I I really hope people will watch the entire podcast um before they call us idiots.
• 57:48
  Speaker 4: Um, but I do want to at least ask this question because I I know that some parents use these phone calls to um get information, but also to give information.
• 58:00
  Speaker 4: And they'll say things like, well, my child deserves to have the truth and and know what's happening.
• 58:06
  Speaker 4: And and I should be able to say that at any time, basically.
• 58:10
  Speaker 4: Um, and so what are your thoughts on that?
• 58:12
  Speaker 4: Because first of all, I don't like the phone calls where anything is negative when you don't have access to your kids because I I think I'm pretty protective, so I always want to be able to protect my kids.
• 58:23
  Speaker 4: But talk to me about that.
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, I I don't disagree.
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, children do deserve honesty, but honesty should be child-sized.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: Um, I'm not saying, or nor did I say in our our our last talk that children should be lied to.
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: They need truthful information that matches their age, their role, and also you have to consider their emotional safety.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: So there's a difference between answering a child's questions honestly and turning them into a witness against the other parent, which has its own set of drawbacks in terms of their emotional and psychological well-being.
• 59:01
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 59:02
  Speaker 4: So I guess in my mind it's not, this isn't the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
• 59:07
  Speaker 4: This is some truth.
• 59:08
  Speaker 4: This is you don't have to go overboard into stories on what you're telling them.
• 59:12
  Speaker 4: Um I do, I I do have another one.
• 59:16
  Speaker 4: Um when parents say, okay, what should I actually um I don't want to go into that?
• 59:28
  Speaker 4: So we're gonna end up talking about this in the next one.
• 59:31
  Speaker 4: So I don't want to go into that on this one.
• 59:34
  Speaker 4: So I'm gonna kind of skip an area that we were going to talk to because I I think we need to get into it more in more depth of what Robert just said um and what we were gonna talk about.
• 59:44
  Speaker 4: But I I don't want to go there, Robert, if you're all right with that.
• 59:46
  Speaker 4: Sure.
• 59:46
  Speaker 4: Okay, so let's talk about what success looks like in phone calls.
• 59:53
  Speaker 4: Like what is that um what is a successful co-parenting phone call kind of relationship look like?
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: Well, I'll say first what it's not.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: It's not measured by the number of calls.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's sort of a maybe a metric that a parent would apply.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: Similarly, it's not measured in minutes or screenshots.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: Again, going back to what we first started talking about, um, success is when a child comfortably lives in both households.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: Um, they can call either parent.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: Um, they can also become absorbed in their childhood without fearing they're going to disappoint someone.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: Um, it looks like neither parent using phone calls to gather evidence.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: It looks like um neither parent treating the child as an informant or neither parent punishing um affection for the other.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: So if if they call the other parent and they're, you know, expressive and emotional with them, that they're not going to be retaliated against.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: So um the phone becomes, you know, really just a phone.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: It's not like a battlefield, it's not a venue in which you know co-parenting conflicts play out.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: This is your child's childhood and their conversations and relationship with the other parent.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 4: I I want to let just talk about um a couple of things.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 4: And and really, really one thing that we didn't address and that I think it's important to address.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 4: If you are a parent who doesn't see your child as often or call your child as often, if your child's expecting a call, call the child.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 4: This is something that I see, and it it just literally breaks my heart where a kid is sitting by a phone waiting for a phone call and the parent is late.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 4: If you're saying that you're gonna call, call.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 4: And if you're not, don't promise it.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 4: Like that's a big problem that I've seen happen periodically.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad you brought that up.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: And my point before about like patterns are important for a child, they're going to make a pattern recognition much quicker when there's an emotional valence to that.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: So, how many times have you heard your kid say, you always do, or you always say, and you're like, well, I've I've maybe said that once or twice.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: Really heavy emotional weighted issues become much more expansive in the child's mind.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: So if you miss one call, there's gonna be some disappointment for sure.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: If you miss a second call, it's a pattern for that kid, right?
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: It only takes a couple times.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: That's gonna be really hurtful if they're expecting that.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: And that would be true.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: You could apply that to a lot of situations where kids may expect something and get disappointed.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: But if you're especially in an early part of a separation or a two-household dynamic and a child is expecting that for helping them adjust to a new circumstance, and you and your co-parent are fighting over time or or sort of phone space with them, um, that child, you have to consider how they're going to interpret that.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: If that parent couldn't call because either they forgot or they didn't care or they were blocked, that's going to impact your child more than anything.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, this is not something the kids asked for, right?
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 4: The kids aren't asking for their parents to split up, whether it's a divorce or paternity action.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 4: The kids aren't asking for this.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 4: Um, and so give them the opportunity to adapt.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 4: Like just avoid turning like normal ordinary moments into like testing loyalty.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 4: Don't, don't make them do that.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 4: Don't they let them love both people, let them love both of you.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 4: Let them them let them love step parents, like let them live their life without having to feel like they have to choose.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 4: And it's it I think it happens fairly frequently that there are loyalty issues um one way or another, whether it's a high conflict or not.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 4: I I still do think that there's some the kids will have some loyalty issues.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 4: But, you know, Robert, what do you think about that?
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I I think there's just some general important takeaways.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: You know, children benefit from feeling emotionally free to love both of their parents when it's safe.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: Um, and a child becoming immersed in everyday life is usually a sign of healthy adjustment, not a rejection.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: So daily contact is not the only indicator of a strong parent-child relationship.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: Um, and what is appropriate, again, varies with their age, their development, their individual circumstances.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: So phone calls need to be there to promote connection rather than some sort of um other motivation or or goal like interrogation or data collection.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 4: So, Robert, thank you for your input.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 4: And if today's conversation resonates with you, you know, don't forget to like and follow and subscribe to our social media, download the app.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 4: Um, it's a free download, but um then a paid upgrade.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 4: And then if you found this episode helpful, or if you think that you, if you have a friend that you think might benefit from this, please forward it to them.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 4: We're trying to get as much education out there as possible.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 4: And as always, if there's a topic that you would like for us to um to touch on, email us, contact us, direct message us.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 4: Um, we do want to take in what you're saying and we want to address it.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 4: We're trying to help people really get through this process as easily and less beat up as possible, right?
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 4: I mean, is that a better way to say that?
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I agree.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: And and on the topic of, you know, providing help and support, I also want to make something really clear.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: If domestic violence or coercive control or abusing abuse, stalking, retaliation, or any other safety issues are present in your circumstance or in your family or co-parenting relationship, communication plans may need to be structured differently.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: So all of these pieces of um uh all of these discussions are sort of with that in mind.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: You know, the safety comes first before anything.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: So uh for more information, more support, you know, certainly check out the split up resources.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: Thanks.