Latest / Everyday Ancestral with James Barry / Why I NEVER Cheat on Keto: How Discipline, Fat & Focus Unlocks a "Savage" Life | Robert Sikes

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Why I NEVER Cheat on Keto: How Discipline, Fat & Focus Unlocks a "Savage" Life | Robert Sikes · Everyday Ancestral with James Barry

• 0:00
  What happens when you strip fitness, nutrition, and life down to the essentials, and build
• 0:07
  from there?
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  In this episode of Everyday Ancestral, I sit down with Robert Sykes, also known as Keto
• 0:13
  Savage, a natural bodybuilder and entrepreneur who's carved out a powerful path using nothing
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  but real food, relentless discipline, and ancestral wisdom.
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  We talk about the mental toughness behind true transformation, why simplicity wins
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  in health and business, and how the ketogenic lifestyle done right can reconnect us with
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  how we're meant to fuel, move, and live.
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  If you're tired of gimmicks, ready for grounded, lasting change, this one's for you.
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  Robert, such a pleasure having you on the podcast.
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  I said this to you last time I saw you, but you know, you're kind of the reason we have
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  a podcast.
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  I mean, I gotta be honest with you, right?
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  When we first met, you were one of the first adopters of having me as a guest on a podcast.
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  We met very early on in Plucks Inception.
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  After we talked, you shared with me like, here's the movers that have really helped my
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  business.
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  Here's how I've really helped to build my community, and I heard you, and I, while I wasn't
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  ready to start, you know, back when we talked almost five years ago, I always kept your
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  advice in the back of my head, and was just like, I gotta do that.
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  I know Robert knows what he's doing, so it's really, truly a pleasure to have you on
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  here.
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  So thanks for joining me.
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  Hey, no, man.
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  I'm glad you got it started.
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  I don't know how the whole podcasting things work.
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  I don't know how the algorithms, facts, things in the play, but I'm into the podcasting
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  for forever now.
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  It seems about the hit episode 800, and it seems like it's made a pretty measurable impact
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  on my branding.
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  So I'm super stoked that you get one of your own now.
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  You're also on the precipice of having your second child.
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  Yeah, if I have to pause this recording in the middle of, you know, delivering a baby,
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  forgive me, but yeah, any moment, I really.
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  That is incredible.
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  Are you guys doing a home birth or what do you guys do?
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  No, we can't.
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  We legally can't.
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  We're like, every state's different, and we had planned on doing a home birth with
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  our first, but in Arkansas, once you go past 42 weeks, you can't have a home birth.
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  So we had to go in, and then things went downhill pretty quick.
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  We had to have an emergency C section for the first one.
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  So we're doing a V back with the second one, and you can't do a V back home birth with
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  a registered midwife in Arkansas.
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  So all kinds of rule is weird, man.
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  Our second was V back as well, and it went successfully.
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  So.
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  Oh.
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  Many prayers for you on that.
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  It will go as well.
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  So tell me though, like, when we met, I think you just had your first child or just
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  about to.
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  So how has fatherhood affected your outlook on life?
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  I'm very ambitious.
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  I'm entrepreneurial, like I would like to be grinding on things.
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  And before I had the kiddo, it's like, you know, I can suffer.
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  I can sacrifice.
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  I can burn the mid at all.
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  And I'm the only one that's, you know, suffering from that.
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  Whereas now having a kid, it's like, okay, I got to take their needs into consideration.
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  But also, and more importantly, is it gives me a reason to hustle and grind and fight
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  in the first place.
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  I'm trying to build a legacy that goes beyond me for them.
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  And he gives me a reason to do everything I do in a day, which is, it's good.
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  It's empowering.
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  How are you guys dividing your household?
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  Like are you the main person who works outside the home and is your wife kind of cover
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  the business, the home business in a sense?
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  Yeah.
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  So we're kind of traditional in that sense.
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  Like when Chris, when I started the business, like she and I built it from, you know, nothing.
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  I mean, she and I slept on a warehouse floor for three years.
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  I mean, we did, we put in, we put in the work.
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  And now, like her aspirations, when we first met way back when was always just to have
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  kids, make babies and have like a little homestead on some land and some pigs.
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  I was like, want to take over the world.
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  And she sacrificed a lot and helping me build the business.
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  And now it's cool because I'm kind of letting her do her thing now.
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  So she helped with everything business related.
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  And now she's pretty much not entirely removed.
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  I mean, she still does like some of the, like she just pay a roll and she does things
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  like that.
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  But she's never having to be on site.
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  Like she's at home raising our kiddo.
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  She's going to do homeschooling when they get a little bit older.
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  And we've got the animals now that she's taken care of.
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  So she's full-time mom and we love it.
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  I got to say that's probably like the one thing that I do have regret over.
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  I'm in it.
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  My kids are still young.
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  They're 13 and nine.
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  It's not huge regret.
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  But I just recognize that my wife and I are both entrepreneurs.
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  And the families that I've seen that we're able to do it slightly more traditional.
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  When I say traditional, I'm mostly just talking one parent in the house running the household.
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  One parent, you know, making money outside the household.
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  To me, it doesn't matter which gender, but more that tradition of one in one, right?
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  My wife and I both are entrepreneurs.
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  So we really struggled to run the household because we didn't have help necessarily.
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  We sometimes had coverage, babysitters and stuff like that.
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  But very often we had no one managing our household, you know, we had to do it all.
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  And it's really challenging or it has been when our kids see us in the house, you know,
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  they see us all the time because we work from home and they're like, why aren't you playing
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  with me or why aren't you spending your time with me?
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  And we're like, well, we're working.
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  This is our work day.
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  And so that divide has been so challenging over the years and I feel like it's sometimes
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  created some behaviors that I'm not proud about in the kids.
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  We've been constantly working through that.
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  But I'm always encouraged when I hear more families finding a more traditional role of
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  someone supporting that household and someone working outside the home because I genuinely
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  believe that the kids end up being a lot more grounded and regulated.
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  It's tough, man.
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  You know, like playbook or rulebook, so I don't know what's right and wrong.
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  Like you kind of just go at it and figure things out, but it seems to be working pretty
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  well for us thus far.
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  And like Ryjul, my oldest son, like he makes it known when he's not getting the attention,
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  you know, we should be giving him like he's like, he's just more rebellious, whereas
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  like if I'm there, I'm present with him, you know, he's like super chill and just loving.
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  You got to kind of read into that and he's only three years old.
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  So he's still trying to figure out how to be, you know, a rational human being, but
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  it's worth really well for us because like when I'm home, I can pretty much set my work
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  aside and truly be home and focus on him, you know, wholeheartedly.
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  One thing we've recently started doing is all leave the building at like four o'clock
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  and then show come to the building and show work out.
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  So she'll have some alone time to do her own thing and I'll just be able to focus on
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  Ryjul and playing with him.
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  And that's been really good.
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  I'm excited for when he gets a little bit older and he can come to the building and like
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  help, even if it's little stuff like freaking sweeping, sweeping the floors.
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  Like I can use the business as a vehicle to teach him some of these life skills that
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  I want him to learn and I don't think I'd be able to have that opportunity if I was
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  working a corporate gig or she and I both were doing a nine to five.
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  It's kind of funny.
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  I've got a friend that I went to the railroad training school with.
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  That's what I did before I started the business.
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  And he stayed with corporate America and he had a kid about the same time I do.
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  I did.
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  And they literally get two hours a day with their kid.
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  Like they leave early.
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  They come back late.
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  The kids with, you know, daycare the whole time.
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  It's like two hours a day man, that's crazy.
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  My son gets 100% of his time with us, you know.
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  So what were you doing in railroad?
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  Were you engineering or what?
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  I was a train master.
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  So I was the direct supervisor over the engineers and conductors and I did that first
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  out of college and I did that for like two and a half, three years.
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  That's why I met Crystal.
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  I got stationed in Washington state and I was working there in Spokane, Washington and
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  the bought a house like two blocks down from the coffee shop.
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  She was a barista at and I started drinking a lot more coffee and then the rest of the
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  history.
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  I didn't realize you used to be in Spokane.
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  Yeah, yeah.
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  I was there for, I guess I was there for like three years or so.
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  That's where I met her and then she came back to Arkansas with me.
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  Why did you guys go to Arkansas?
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  Was that where you grew up?
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  Yeah.
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  It's pretty much where I grew up.
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  I grew up in Arkansas and family in Arkansas.
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  That's where I graduated and Northwest Arkansas specifically is just where I've always
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  found home to be.
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  It's like in the Ozark Mountains, it's beautiful.
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  The universities up here, there's a lot of money up here in Northwest Arkansas, a lot
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  of opportunity.
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  But it's just like right in the Ozark Mountains, it's just beautiful, beautiful country
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  and then Arkansas in general is just much more laid back so it's a good place.
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  I was recently in LA and reminded of kind of the hustle and bustle of LA and just felt
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  so grateful that I no longer live there.
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  What do you notice in the difference in lifestyle between where you were in Spokane and given
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  that Spokane is not a humongous city, it's not like Seattle, but it's still different.
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  But what's the difference for you then where you are now in Arkansas?
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  Yeah, I mean, I've been to a lot of big cities like I go to, you know, I've been to New
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  York, I've spoken to these conferences in these big cities and for me, I don't know,
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  like Arkansas, having like just the country vibe, like I live on some acreage and, you
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  know, our businesses in a very small town like our population here is like 2000.
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  It's just a slower pace, a slower vibe.
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  People are friendlier, it seems like people want to know their neighbor, they go to the
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  local rodeo, like just little things like that that you wouldn't get in a big metropolitan
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  area.
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  And I feel like that's what life's all about, you know, more of this intimate human interaction,
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  local community, like I want to double down on that.
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  Yeah, that's one thing I really, like whenever I see your conferences, I feel like the
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  people that you have working with you with, it's Greg or any of them that I've met, they're
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  just, it seems to me like you guys have a really, really solid grounding and relationship.
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  How have you been formulating that?
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  What's been your kind of catalyst for making sure that the business is not only run successfully
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  but just in that kind of familiar or community-based way?
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  I mean, it didn't always start out that way.
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  Like I've had, you know, we've been a business for 70 years now and I've run through several
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  employees over that time.
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  You know, I've got some employees that I'm not on great terms with, former employees.
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  They just want a good fit.
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  And I'm very honest with my team, I'm very, you know, up front, I let them know what
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  my expectations are and I don't try and micromanage them like I just let them know kind of what
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  the expectations are.
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  And the team that we've got now is the best team I've ever had.
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  Like many of them quit their jobs and traveled across states to work here and the vibe that
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  we have.
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  They're not part owners or anything like that.
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  They just understand the mission.
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  They understand what the trajectory is and they want to be a part of something that's
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  growing and something that's positive.
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  And my crew is my famous, like I spend so much time with them.
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  Like we had a meeting this morning actually and I brought the white boards out.
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  I showed them what the goals were over the next several years.
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  Like what trajectory I'm planning and striving for, how I want to make them involved and
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  become a part of it.
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  How I need them to step up to accomplish that.
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  And like they were all for it.
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  And I mean, we're a big family man.
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  Like every time we do a big launch, like I have them at the house, I do a cook out with
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  them.
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  Like it's all one big happy family.
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  We all work out together.
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  Like it's a good vibe.
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  That's awesome.
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  Where did you get your business acronym?
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  Like you see, that's one thing that you also seemed to model really well is just this
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  very clear-headed, clear-minded businessman mentality.
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  Where did that come from?
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  I went to school for business finance.
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  I thought I was going to be on Wall Street originally, thinking as that didn't pan out.
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  But honestly, man, just kind of like trial and error, like figuring things out.
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  Like I dove deep into it.
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  My uncle is an entrepreneur.
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  So I used to work for him during the summertime, you know, like in the warehouse and just
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  seeing how he interacted with his employees was always a very positive influence on me.
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  My cousins are entrepreneurial.
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  But I read a bunch of business books, listened a bunch of business podcasts, kind of figured
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  out how I wanted to run things.
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  And then, you know, watching my parents, like they're very good people, and just seeing
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  their significance and importance on like good character traits, like how to be honest,
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  how to maintain your integrity, how to be upfront, and be good people to one another.
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  And I wanted to build a workplace that didn't have to escape from, like I'm excited to
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  keep doing what I'm doing and not feel the need to retire.
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  Because I'm going to be working on something I'm passionate about until the day they
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  pat me in the face of the show.
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  Integrity is something that is absolutely my experience of you.
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  From day one, the amount of presence and integrity you have, where do you think that comes
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  from?
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  And I know we could potentially look at our parents, but if someone listening has been
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  kind of feeling like, I'm just feel like I'm not kind of coexisting with people in my
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  life in integrity, what advice would you give someone to find integrity and make choices
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  accordingly to tap into that integrity?
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  I mean, I think parenting is huge, and now that I'm a parent myself, like I really want
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  to make that a primary focus, I mean, my dad and I, but it has a bit growing up.
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  But he is a very solid person, like he's always had really quality integrity, like he instilled
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  work ethic and honesty, and like a lot of those character building traits into me.
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  He's not entrepreneurial at all, so I didn't get any of that from him necessarily, but I got
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  a lot of my basic core tendencies, how to be as a person.
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  And then in doubling down on that and just building my foundation from then, it's always
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  done well for me.
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  Like I've seen people who backstab one another that always comes back to bottom, when you
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  tell a lie, you just have to tell another lie to cover it up.
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  And I just never wanted to live my life wearing a mask or having to look over my shoulder.
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  Like everything I do, everything I say is a hundred percent authentic and transparent
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  people that hear me online, listen to a podcast or a YouTube video, but then they meet me
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  in person.
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  Like, I'm the exact same way they would have expected me to be.
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  And I take pride in that, like I want to just be truly authentic, and I just really
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  try to live my life with gratitude.
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  Like I've got so much to be thankful for, you know, I've got a lot of aspirations, I've
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  got a lot of ambition, and I want to take over the freaking world, but never at the cost
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  of my integrity, never at the cost of being legitimately a good person.
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  And I've got clients that are multi-millionaires, totally unhappy in their life.
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  They've sold their soul to the devil, so to speak, to make a buck, they're unfulfilled.
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  And I just don't want that, like to me, it's like if I had billions of dollars in bank,
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  I would want to build a life similar to what I have right now.
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  I mean, I wake up, have coffee with my wife, watch the sunrise, go work out with my employees,
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  have a morning meeting with them, talk about the things that we're going to do.
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  You know, we work on making the keto bricks or whatever else, we're getting one on the
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  day that's like actually adding value to other people's lives and making them healthier.
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  It's like, man, what can be more fulfilling than that, you know, like I'm happy.
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  Do you think that a mission is important, like having a mission is important?
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  I would say even like faith, like if you were to kind of like say, okay, well, to kind
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  of live that honest, integral life, to feel happiness, you know, it takes certain qualities.
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  What do you think those qualities would be?
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  It's interesting, because like when it comes to faith, I've only recently become a man
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  of faith.
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  Like I wasn't raised in that setting, my dad's an evolutionary biologist.
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  He is not a faith-based person at all, but he's one of the best people I know, and he's
• 15:24
  one of the most honest people I know.
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  I mean, it's certainly not a requisite for having those values by any means.
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  But in growing in my faith here lately, I have found that that provides a certain underlying
• 15:37
  degree of just like peace in my life that I didn't have before, and that is massive.
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  Because like prior to I was just working and building and growing, but there was never
• 15:51
  peace with it.
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  Now there's like this underlying level of just genuine, deep peace, which I think is
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  making me a better entrepreneur, making me a better leader to my team, making me a better
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  father to my kids.
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  And I think that's important, so I think that's only been a benefit and a positive bit
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  of my life.
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  But I think honestly, just simply, you know, we all know inherently if something is right
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  or wrong.
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  Like we have this, our conscience speaking to us, and we know if we've got something
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  that is cutting corners in life, and I've just made it to have it to never cut those
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  corners.
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  I've made it to have it to never take the shortcut.
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  I've always just pushed further, harder, faster, for longer consistently.
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  And I feel like when you know you're not sun yourself short, when you know you're doing
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  the right thing, when you know you're doing something that you can go to sleep at night,
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  feeling proud of and confident in that compounded over lifetime is certain to make you successful
• 16:44
  in some form of fashion.
• 16:46
  When did the bodybuilding come in?
• 16:50
  The bodybuilding came in in high school, man.
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  I was 115 pounds soaked in what I was scrawny.
• 16:54
  I didn't wear a T-shirt in my last two years of high school because I was so self-conscious
• 16:57
  couldn't talk to the ladies.
• 16:58
  And then my uncle, who was the entrepreneur, he kind of took me under his wing, showed
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  me how to do a few bicep curls, and I was hooked, man, like I just was addicted to it.
• 17:06
  Because that was something where, you know, the fruits of my labor resulted in the outcome
• 17:10
  that I was striving for.
• 17:11
  It wasn't like a team sport, whether I, you know, won or lost was 100% dependent upon
• 17:15
  the amount of effort I put in.
• 17:17
  So I just really loved that aspect of it.
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  And to start competing in 2012, and then have just been competing ever since.
• 17:24
  And I'll take a couple years off in between shows to build on more size, but I've done
• 17:28
  it all naturally, and I've kind of blended the world of, you know, nutrition with what
• 17:32
  I've learned in the ketogenic diet from a bodybuilding standpoint.
• 17:36
  And it's been, it's been awesome, man.
• 17:38
  What's the difference for you between bodybuilding and weightlifting?
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  Well, bodybuilding is more of like an art, I guess.
• 17:44
  I don't want to ruffle any weightlifters feathers here because they may take offense.
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  But like with weightlifting, the goal is to lift the most amount of weight, like powerlifting.
• 17:51
  You want to lift as much weight as possible.
• 17:53
  So in doing so, you'll shorten the range of motion, and you just focus on lifting that
• 17:57
  weight.
• 17:58
  You don't really put any thought towards what your physique looks like in the process.
• 18:02
  And there's totally a place for that, like I like lifting heavy as well.
• 18:05
  But with bodybuilding, it's more like an art form, like you're a sculptor.
• 18:08
  You see your physique, what's lagging, what's overdeveloped, and you try and, you know, sculpt
• 18:14
  that to the image in your mind, that requires, you know, different training styles, different
• 18:18
  nutritional manipulations.
• 18:20
  But from a character standpoint, my superpower as a human being, and this is both well for
• 18:25
  both bodybuilding and business, is that I'm just incredibly consistent.
• 18:29
  Like once I set my mind to something, I will chip away at it every single day until I
• 18:35
  reach that goal.
• 18:36
  Period.
• 18:37
  Like I will find a way to move the needle forward in some form or fashion every single day.
• 18:41
  And that goes really weight great with, you know, adhering to a specific macro goals
• 18:45
  or being consistent with your training, being consistent with your cardio, and just working
• 18:49
  towards that end outcome.
• 18:50
  And it obviously works well in business too, because business is a long, arduous journey
• 18:55
  as well.
• 18:56
  How do you know which path to follow, for example, particularly when it's something that
• 19:00
  you're new at?
• 19:01
  A lot of trial and error, I mean, like with bodybuilding, like I tried multiple different
• 19:05
  diets before I landed on keto.
• 19:07
  So I mean, I had done a lot of other diets, had success with them to some extent, but
• 19:11
  it wasn't sustainable or enjoyable for me.
• 19:14
  And my performance was only improved with keto, so I was pretty sold on that as the most
• 19:19
  optimal diet for bodybuilding for me.
• 19:22
  And then like with business, like I've tried multiple things too, I've had several failed
• 19:26
  in business attempts.
• 19:27
  I've done things that didn't work long-term, but you just have to be very self-aware and
• 19:34
  honest with yourself and be objective with things and, you know, not take it personally,
• 19:39
  but also like there's a balance between knowing when to quit or pivot or change direction
• 19:45
  and just like pushing through.
• 19:47
  And you have to be really self-aware to know where that line is, because a lot of people
• 19:52
  they'll work at it for six months and then not be where they want to be and then just
• 19:55
  throw in the towel.
• 19:57
  And with both bodybuilding and business, like I've been doing this for years now.
• 20:01
  And the first several years are oftentimes where you're hitting your head up against the
• 20:06
  wall the most, but, you know, the time is going to pass anyways.
• 20:10
  So you might as well be working towards something that you're aspiring to, as opposed to
• 20:15
  just throwing that tile and kicking your feet up and watching Netflix every day.
• 20:18
  Well, what do you find helps you to not give up?
• 20:21
  Because like when I historically followed specific diets or specific exercise plans, I'll
• 20:28
  do them for six, 12, 16 months.
• 20:33
  But I notice I'll hit a point where I'll wane.
• 20:36
  And usually it's because I don't feel the change.
• 20:41
  So how does someone in your judgment or how do you maintain that consistency, even when
• 20:47
  it doesn't look the way you wanted it to look?
• 20:49
  Well, the body is very damp, so it's going to try and reach and stay in a homeostatic
• 20:56
  state.
• 20:57
  And if you don't give your body reason to change, then why would it?
• 21:01
  Because it's comfortable kind of staying in this place.
• 21:04
  So all cycle through, like for instance, a cutting phase, like when I'm getting ready for
• 21:08
  a competition, you know, I might be dieting down for 33 weeks long, and I'm constantly
• 21:13
  manipulating my macros every single week to get leaner and leaner and leaner, and that's
• 21:17
  how I got down to 3.9% body fat and got my pro card in 23.
• 21:21
  But you can't sustain that conditioning, you know, for too long.
• 21:24
  So I'll reverse diet out of that, bring my calories back up, focus more so on building
• 21:29
  muscle.
• 21:30
  And I'm basically just cycling through these building and cutting phases in a healthy
• 21:34
  manner.
• 21:35
  And that provides a constant stimulus to the body that's asking it to change.
• 21:40
  And for that reason, it continues to change.
• 21:42
  Whereas if I, you know, were to keep the same calories, keep the same training regimen,
• 21:46
  not even a set, you can keep the same training regimen for a long time.
• 21:48
  But manipulating the weight you're using, the rotation of the exercises, the different
• 21:53
  intensity factors, like all those little things elicit a stimulus that forces a response.
• 21:59
  So if you're keeping everything consistent for too long, your body has no reason to adapt
• 22:03
  further.
• 22:04
  We're hearing more and more of that heavy lifting is really key for longevity.
• 22:09
  So anyone listening or watching who's not heavy lifting, maybe not even going and doing
• 22:15
  any weight lifting, what advice would you give them of how to get started?
• 22:20
  Maybe three things.
• 22:21
  Yeah, I mean, it's a quintessential example of if you don't use it, you lose it.
• 22:25
  And people that don't move as much arenas active as they age, that muscle atrophies and
• 22:30
  the case and they, you know, become higher risk of falling and degrading very quickly.
• 22:36
  But that doesn't have to be your story.
• 22:37
  Like if you keep that muscle in demand, you can hold on to it pretty well.
• 22:40
  You can even build one muscle.
• 22:41
  I've got one client that's 72 years old, just started working out and he's stronger than
• 22:45
  he's ever been.
• 22:46
  And anything is better than nothing.
• 22:48
  And you just have to implement progressive overload with where you're at now.
• 22:51
  So like if you've never picked up a weight in your life, you're not going to go and start
• 22:54
  squatting three to 15.
• 22:56
  You have to just start with where you're at.
• 22:57
  So maybe that's body weight movements.
• 22:59
  And as those become easier, transitioning to machines and then start using free weights
• 23:03
  and then implementing, implementing more weight or more time under tension or, you know,
• 23:09
  more intensity factors like supersets, drop sets, negatives, forced reps, things like
• 23:13
  that.
• 23:14
  You can find ways to move the needle.
• 23:15
  But yeah, you got to constantly be given your body reason to adapt further.
• 23:20
  What is your opinion about free weights versus machines is one better than the other or
• 23:25
  they both have their place?
• 23:27
  Yeah, they both definitely have to play, especially for like a new lifter.
• 23:30
  Like if you're using a machine, like it's putting you on a specific path of travel.
• 23:34
  So you're less likely to have an injury.
• 23:36
  I love free weights because I can really connect with the muscle and feel what it's going
• 23:42
  through, what I'm putting it through.
• 23:43
  But I'll use both, like I'll use certain machines to target a specific spot.
• 23:47
  I'll use free weights.
• 23:48
  You don't have to overthink it.
• 23:49
  A lot of people overthink their training protocol, like, I mean, for the first several years
• 23:53
  of my bodybuilding career, you know, I didn't have access to a gym.
• 23:57
  So I was using pieces of, you know, tractor equipment that my dad had in his shop, you
• 24:02
  know, like you just make it do with what you got like Rocky for no totally man, totally.
• 24:08
  But yeah, I mean, you can, you can use whatever you have and make it work for you for sure.
• 24:12
  So you mentioned ketogenic diet.
• 24:14
  Why is it you think that that worked and what did you try before that?
• 24:20
  So I was doing the bro diet, you know, chicken rice broccoli, type of where meals, seven meals
• 24:25
  a day, you can have a two or three hours, I tried flexible dieting if it fits your macros.
• 24:30
  I started doing carbohydrate back loading.
• 24:31
  So after my first show in 2012, I lost 80 pounds in 12 weeks, got shredded, but I lost
• 24:37
  a lot of muscle in the process.
• 24:39
  And then when I went out for my celebratory meal, I went out to red lobster and just ate
• 24:42
  everything.
• 24:43
  Man, I gained literally 24 pounds in a day, like it was not healthy.
• 24:48
  And then that kind of became the downward spiral of my sword eating.
• 24:52
  So I would like binge on food that I purge and then I'd go three days without eating.
• 24:56
  And it just became like a vicious feedback loop that lasted for two or three years.
• 24:59
  So then I started dabbling in other diets that I could use to be more sustainable.
• 25:03
  So I started doing carbohydrate back loading, which is basically keto during the day and
• 25:07
  had a bunch of high glycemic index carbs at night, which was good because it worked
• 25:11
  with my desire to binge.
• 25:14
  But I noticed that I felt better without the carbs being introduced at night.
• 25:19
  So I started doing car back loading without the carbs, which is again, pretty much keto.
• 25:23
  This was before keto was popular, so there wasn't anything online about keto.
• 25:27
  So I started trying that to just know carbs, fats and proteins, figuring out what worked
• 25:32
  well.
• 25:33
  And lo and behold, my performance wasn't hindered.
• 25:35
  I was still feeling great and it improved my relationship with food because I was eating
• 25:40
  all real food.
• 25:41
  Like when I took away the carbs, I was just eating animal, fats and proteins.
• 25:46
  So there wasn't any guilt associated with the foods that I was eating.
• 25:49
  And I think not having guilt with the foods was like the main catalyst for me recovering
• 25:54
  from that disorder eating tendency.
• 25:56
  Once I kind of got that protocol dialed in, was able to compete with a ketogenic approach,
• 26:02
  which was great, won my pro card and then was able to replicate that across the board
• 26:05
  with my clients.
• 26:06
  It's like, okay, this obviously works.
• 26:09
  People that I'd worked with that had followed other protocols in the past and were left
• 26:13
  feeling miserable.
• 26:14
  Their hormones were in disarray, wasn't sustainable for them.
• 26:18
  I didn't want that for them because I had suffered from it as well.
• 26:21
  And then when they started doing it with a ketogenic approach, like, okay, this is way
• 26:23
  better.
• 26:24
  I'm able to eat the foods that I like.
• 26:25
  I feel better.
• 26:26
  I don't have that zombie mode mentality towards the end of my cutting cycle.
• 26:30
  So this is just a much healthier approach to nutrition and body composition changes.
• 26:35
  So I just, you know, doubled out on that and then started coaching from a ketogenic standpoint
• 26:40
  once I figured on that out.
• 26:42
  That was back in 2016, I believe.
• 26:45
  For the people that don't know, what is the keto genocidal, like, how does one follow
• 26:49
  it or what are the principles?
• 26:51
  I mean, at the very high level, a ketogenic diet is basically a diet that forces fat metabolism
• 26:57
  rather than glucose metabolism as your primary fuel substrate.
• 26:59
  It's a rather than using carbohydrates and sugars for energy, I'm using fats, lipids
• 27:04
  and keto bodies.
• 27:06
  So basically, I've shifted my macro distribution from a mixed diet that includes carbohydrates
• 27:11
  to one that is very minimal of carbohydrates and primarily comprised of animal fats and
• 27:15
  proteins.
• 27:16
  And there's a lot of different ways to do keto.
• 27:17
  There's like a, I mean, since keto is now become very popular, there's a lot of versions
• 27:21
  of keto.
• 27:22
  You've got, you know, modified keto, therapeutic keto, carnivore keto, lazy keto.
• 27:28
  You got all these versions of it now.
• 27:29
  Dirty keto.
• 27:30
  Dirty keto.
• 27:31
  Yes.
• 27:32
  I mean, it's kind of become bastardized in that sense, but at a very high level, it's basically
• 27:35
  just eating a diet that forces fat metabolism as opposed to glucose metabolism.
• 27:41
  Now, why have you focused on animal fats?
• 27:45
  Because I think that's where the dirty keto comes in is a lot of people think, well, it's
• 27:48
  just fat, right?
• 27:49
  It's just high fat, lower protein.
• 27:53
  And so then they go crazy on like nuts and seeds and nut butters and all that.
• 27:57
  You know, they go crazy with certain fats.
• 28:00
  You don't.
• 28:01
  It sounds like you actually focus a lot on animal fats, specifically.
• 28:04
  So why?
• 28:05
  I don't eat exclusively animal fats like all like the cacao butter and the bricks, for
• 28:09
  instance, is the world's greatest source of steric acid.
• 28:12
  So all use things like that that are quality plant-based fats.
• 28:16
  I try to avoid, you know, all the heavily processed seed oils and whatnot.
• 28:19
  I'd more so focus on animal based stuff from a protein standpoint because animal based
• 28:23
  proteins are more bioavailable.
• 28:26
  And it's just from an ethical standpoint, from an environmental standpoint, like I like
• 28:31
  the idea of knowing where my food comes from, eating animals that I know were well cared
• 28:36
  for, lived a good life.
• 28:37
  I'm also a hunter.
• 28:38
  So I'm able to make use of all the animal that I harvest in hunting season.
• 28:44
  And I'm just much more in tune with the circle of life, you know, like I, when you take
• 28:49
  a life of an animal, you don't want to waste any of it.
• 28:53
  You respect that animal all the more.
• 28:54
  I mean, like I went elk hunting this past year, brought down an elk.
• 28:57
  I've got a freezer full of elk meat now, which is just delicious and incredibly nutritious.
• 29:01
  But I busted my ass to get that elk off the mountain.
• 29:03
  So I'm not going to let any of it go to waste.
• 29:06
  And food waste is something I don't have any tolerance for.
• 29:09
  So for me, it just really fits well with my lifestyle.
• 29:12
  Like I'm eating primarily fats and proteins.
• 29:14
  I'm eating the highest quality fats and proteins I can get.
• 29:18
  And I'm doing so in a way that is honoring the animal that I'm taking it from.
• 29:22
  Yeah, that's beautiful.
• 29:23
  And that's obviously what I'm all about as well.
• 29:25
  So what we talk a lot about on this podcast is, where does fish fit in for you?
• 29:30
  What does it?
• 29:31
  I love fish.
• 29:32
  My wife does not.
• 29:33
  So by default, I don't eat much fish.
• 29:36
  You got to watch out.
• 29:36
  We're like certain heavy metals you want.
• 29:38
  You want to get like wild caught versus farm raised.
• 29:40
  We live in Arkansas.
• 29:41
  We're not really coastal.
• 29:43
  So I can't really get to those kind of fish.
• 29:45
  You're not going to sushi restaurants, you know, every week.
• 29:48
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 29:49
  But I mean, when I was eating carbs, one of my favorite meals was going to a can't fish
• 29:53
  fry with a bunch of, you know, fry potatoes and stuff as well.
• 29:57
  There's a way to make anything keto now.
• 29:58
  So like panko, pork rinds, you can bread them with that and that is super delicious.
• 30:04
  I'm hopeful that my kids like fish.
• 30:06
  And then I'll eat more fish as a family by the fall.
• 30:09
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 30:11
  So where did keto brick come into this?
• 30:15
  So because you actually were following the ketogenic diet before you created the keto brick,
• 30:20
  you were already starting your path of bodybuilding.
• 30:24
  So was this out of necessity?
• 30:26
  Yeah, totally out of necessity.
• 30:27
  Like I started, I started bodybuilding as a junior in high school.
• 30:31
  I started doing keto in 2014, 2015, competed with keto for the first time in 2017.
• 30:39
  And while I was doing that first competition prep with keto, I was documenting what I
• 30:43
  was eating on my YouTube channel.
• 30:45
  I was trying to find a way to streamline macro manipulation, meal prep, things like that.
• 30:50
  And this was before there was any keto products because keto wasn't really popular.
• 30:54
  So I just set out to make my own meal replacement bar that hit the target macros I was shooting
• 30:59
  for and just streamlined my meal prep.
• 31:02
  So I made keto brick for my own personal consumption, never planned on it being something that
• 31:06
  I sold.
• 31:07
  But there was several comments on the YouTube videos of like, hey, what is that?
• 31:11
  Because I had made a couple of earlier renditions of it and people were asking where they
• 31:15
  could get it, how they could make it, if they could buy it.
• 31:18
  And I just kind of wrote it off of us, just something I mean, don't worry about it.
• 31:21
  And that for those comments kept coming in and that my girlfriend at the time, wife, now,
• 31:26
  we just rolled up our sleeves and decided to make a business with it.
• 31:29
  And that's exactly what we did.
• 31:30
  And so we learned all about having to certify kitchen space.
• 31:34
  We were leasing a kitchen space three hours away from us.
• 31:37
  We would work all day long, you know, odd in jobs, drive three hours, stay up all night
• 31:43
  making these bricks.
• 31:45
  Our first production run, we were making each brick by hand with a measuring cup and a spoon
• 31:49
  weighing everything out, took us all night long, we made 142 bricks.
• 31:53
  We put them on the website and they literally sold out like in two minutes.
• 31:58
  And she and I just kind of looked at each other and I'm like, okay, maybe we should focus
• 32:00
  on this a little bit more.
• 32:02
  So we just went all in on the man like we literally just bootstrapped it from the from
• 32:07
  the beginning, instead of leasing that commercial kitchen space by the hour, we found another
• 32:11
  commercial kitchen space where at least in that for three years, I was living in one of
• 32:15
  the office floors, sleep out in the floor while we live there for three years, then we just
• 32:20
  bought this new facility in 2020, got it fully renovated and we have this massive, you
• 32:25
  know, facility now that we produce the bricks in house with, we've got a gym in here, we
• 32:30
  get the podcast to do in here and this is, this is just part of our, our life now.
• 32:35
  What's the secret you think to kind of balancing that business life and your health?
• 32:42
  So one of the other businesses that we have is we're going to relaunch our payroll company
• 32:46
  and one of the shirt, first shirt designs that I'm going to launch is going to be one that
• 32:51
  says balance is bullshit because I don't feel like there is much balance in my life.
• 32:56
  However, I think when people think of balance, work life balance specifically, you know,
• 33:00
  they imagine like a teeter totter and like one's going up, but if one's going up, then
• 33:04
  the other by default is going down and I don't want anything in my life to degrade
• 33:09
  anything else.
• 33:10
  So I've tried to reverse engineer my life and make it very symbionic in nature like everything
• 33:14
  complements the whole and a concept that I discovered a while back is called tinseggity.
• 33:19
  It's an architectural concept, basically, intentional integrity.
• 33:23
  You've got these different things that are creating tension on one another, but in doing
• 33:27
  so it creates a more rigid architectural structure.
• 33:31
  And I look at my life and I can pretty much break it into, you know, five primary pillars.
• 33:35
  So you've got health, you've got wealth, you've got relationships, you've got spirituality
• 33:41
  and you've got, you know, self-improvement.
• 33:44
  And everything that I focus on in life, everything that I spend time on, everything that I do
• 33:48
  fits into one of those pillars and everything benefits the whole and improves one another
• 33:54
  in some form or fashion like nothing is costing the other anything.
• 33:59
  That's really different and cool way of describing that to me, that is a balance.
• 34:06
  That tension maintains and they all lift up together.
• 34:09
  Yeah.
• 34:10
  And there's like, there are times when certain pillars get much more time and attention
• 34:14
  than others, but in doing so, everything rises and I feel like that's a concept that
• 34:20
  I can get behind a lot more.
• 34:22
  In a world full of quick fixes, how do you teach people to fall in love with the long
• 34:29
  game?
• 34:30
  Man, I love the long game.
• 34:31
  Let's commit a short design to you because like, you know, bodybuilding is a long game,
• 34:34
  especially in natural bodybuilding.
• 34:36
  Like I'm competing now in my 30s, I can, sorry, I'm competing in my, you know, 20s,
• 34:40
  but I'm excited to see what I look like when I'm freaking 76 years old, stepping on
• 34:43
  stage, you know, like I'm playing the long game.
• 34:46
  And I think if you, you know, figure out your actions, you've got habits in place that
• 34:50
  are all benefiting the whole and those habits and actions compound over lifetime, there's
• 34:55
  no telling what you can come up with.
• 34:58
  So like what I would encourage when it comes to just long game mentality is to do things
• 35:05
  that excite you for more than just, more than just the short term, like bodybuilding is
• 35:10
  a long game thing, business is a long game thing, relationships is a long game thing, like
• 35:14
  you get, you just look at the general public, look at the masses and you look at recommendations
• 35:19
  out there.
• 35:20
  Most of my success has come from doing the exact opposite of what the status quo is or
• 35:23
  suggest.
• 35:24
  You know, more than 50% of marriages in the divorce, more than 50% of the population
• 35:28
  is obese.
• 35:29
  Do the opposite of what the masses are doing.
• 35:32
  And when you do that and you have that long game mentality, you get excited about the
• 35:37
  day today because those little days ticking by one after the other, that compounds into
• 35:43
  your reality.
• 35:44
  And I'm super excited to see how my life transforms over the long haul.
• 35:49
  I love the moment that I'm in, now I'm grateful for it.
• 35:52
  I'm fulfilled by it, but I'm not satisfied with it.
• 35:56
  I'm content with it, but I'm not done.
• 35:58
  I'm not satisfied.
• 35:59
  It's going to keep getting better and better.
• 36:01
  I'm just loving here and here and you talk about these things.
• 36:04
  To me though, it has this level of confidence that I know we've kind of touched on already,
• 36:10
  but what things are you not confident about?
• 36:12
  Where does a lack of confidence come out in your life or does it, or maybe lack of confidence
• 36:16
  is the wrong word?
• 36:17
  Does vulnerability come out in your life?
• 36:21
  I'm very hard on myself.
• 36:22
  I would like to be better at everything that I'm doing.
• 36:27
  And I take the blame for everything that goes wrong.
• 36:30
  I've got this extreme ownership, jock home mentality towards things, which I think is
• 36:33
  a positive.
• 36:34
  Like you have this, like it's scary when you carry the weight, but it's also very empowering.
• 36:39
  But I beat myself up oftentimes for things that I have no control over.
• 36:45
  So for instance, going back to some of the employees at the past, ones that did not
• 36:49
  work out, they may have some underlying character flaws or upbringing issues or something that
• 36:55
  just would not make them a good employee in any work setting.
• 36:58
  But I take that personally because I feel like I have failed them.
• 37:02
  I feel like there's something that I could have done.
• 37:04
  I could have been a better role model.
• 37:05
  I could have said something differently that could have breathed life into them and got
• 37:10
  them motivated.
• 37:12
  And maybe that's fair, maybe it's not fair to me, but that's kind of where my fault
• 37:18
  oftentimes is.
• 37:19
  And I don't think it's a fault on a macro level, but there are certainly instances where
• 37:22
  it definitely comes back and bites me, recognizing that I can't save everyone if they don't
• 37:28
  want to be saved as hard, you know, like with family, you know, like you're in the nutrition
• 37:32
  space, some of the people that you would want to be the healthiest, they could be like
• 37:37
  your closest inner circle of family are oftentimes the most hesitant or resistant to
• 37:41
  what you have to say.
• 37:43
  And that bothers me.
• 37:44
  And I don't oftentimes know how to have those conversations with those people because they're
• 37:48
  not receptive to it.
• 37:50
  So that is where I probably lack confidence there.
• 37:54
  Like if they're willing to talk, I can very confidently speak on what I'd like to say,
• 37:58
  but knowing how to make them receptive in the first place is a challenge.
• 38:03
  Yeah, I mean, I think that's a challenge for everyone.
• 38:07
  I learned very early on when I first went down this path as a chef and I learned some
• 38:12
  truths about our food systems.
• 38:13
  I would go to these parties with excitement and be like, oh, you guys can't wait to share
• 38:17
  what I learned.
• 38:18
  And I would give the realities of our agricultural system or the meat industry and people just
• 38:24
  their jaws would drop and they'd be like, you know, eff you man, like, why did you just
• 38:28
  do that?
• 38:29
  Now I don't know what to eat.
• 38:30
  I quickly learn.
• 38:31
  I'm like, oh, just because I'm passionate about something doesn't mean someone's ready
• 38:35
  to hear it.
• 38:36
  And then I need to wait till they ask me, you know, and just kind of just model my beliefs
• 38:41
  or model my lifestyle and then let them come to me when they're ready and curious.
• 38:47
  It's hard to know, man.
• 38:48
  It's hard to know because we're all our own unique individuals who are all coming to
• 38:51
  say to the table with, you know, different backgrounds, different belief systems.
• 38:56
  But you know your intentions.
• 38:57
  You know what your heart is.
• 38:58
  You know what message you're trying to convey.
• 39:01
  And if you simply do the best that you can with what you have, that's all any of us
• 39:04
  can do, you know?
• 39:05
  What do you think people overcomplicate their health today?
• 39:11
  It's funny.
• 39:12
  I had a podcast the other day and I was talking to this energy expert like on light energy
• 39:17
  and just like the energy system in general.
• 39:20
  That's a topic that is oftentimes like woo, woo, but the way he broke it now was honestly
• 39:25
  very rooted in, you know, fundamental truth.
• 39:28
  And I mean, we can go down the rabbit hole.
• 39:30
  I mean, I can go down the rabbit hole with you on macro nutrient manipulation and change
• 39:34
  your body composition and hormonal health and things like that.
• 39:37
  But like when you distill it all down to its simplest core, it's like eat real food, eat nutrient
• 39:42
  dense food, get out and move your body, improve your circadian rhythm by seeing sunrise
• 39:47
  and sunset things that we were all doing by default 500 years ago.
• 39:52
  But it's just become so far removed from our reality now because of all the distractions
• 39:56
  that we're ended with.
• 39:57
  And when it comes to nutrition and training like people, people spend 10 hours a day going
• 40:03
  through the Google rabbit hole as to what the best workouts split should be, if they
• 40:08
  had allocated one of those 10 hours to simply getting out there and moving their body in
• 40:11
  a gym and making mistakes, they would figure out really quickly where the results come
• 40:16
  from.
• 40:17
  So just too much distraction, too much noise, too much, too many variables, like just
• 40:22
  simply do the basics, don't overthink anything, but do the basics for long enough to elicit
• 40:28
  a response.
• 40:29
  And that doesn't happen overnight.
• 40:30
  I'm wondering if we can even go a little deeper, you know, someone's listening wants to
• 40:36
  live stronger, true to their nature, all the things you're talking about.
• 40:40
  And with more integrity as we talked about early on in the podcast, what's one action they
• 40:47
  should take today?
• 40:48
  I actually have not yet done this action, but I think this is one that would be very relevant.
• 40:53
  I think it'd be very powerful.
• 40:55
  I'm reading a book right now.
• 40:56
  It's from a military bedroom and when soldiers are about to go into battle, they're required
• 41:04
  to write a death letter to their loved ones so that if they were not to come back, their
• 41:10
  friend or comrade can give that letter to their spouses or kids or whatever.
• 41:14
  But he's had to write four of these letters over his lifetime in his journey's overseas.
• 41:21
  And thankfully, they were never delivered because he made it back.
• 41:25
  But he recommended in his book to actually write a letter to your kids, to your spouse,
• 41:33
  to the people that are close to you, describing how much they mean to you, how great for you
• 41:39
  are, all of that stuff.
• 41:41
  With the full intention that you're not coming back, and that's the last thing that they'd
• 41:45
  read about you from your own words.
• 41:48
  And I think when people recognize in that degree of clarity that they will die someday,
• 41:54
  it's going to happen to all of us.
• 41:56
  It really changes the way you live.
• 41:59
  And I think that simple task would be incredibly impactful.
• 42:05
  It's impacting me just hearing it.
• 42:07
  That sounds incredibly powerful.
• 42:09
  Kind of scary.
• 42:10
  It's kind of scary.
• 42:12
  What would I write my wife right now?
• 42:14
  What would I write my son right now?
• 42:16
  What would I want them to think of me if they weren't old enough to know me on a deeper
• 42:20
  level?
• 42:21
  But if you think about that and live that out, if you live the life now, that would be
• 42:29
  reflect on the words that you would want them to read and believe in, I feel like a lot
• 42:33
  of people would change what they're doing on a day to day.
• 42:35
  Yeah, well, Robert, that's incredibly powerful.
• 42:40
  I want to actually just let everyone sit in that and really let that be the ending of
• 42:47
  the podcast.
• 42:48
  I really think that there's nothing more powerful that we can do and think about than
• 42:55
  how are we impacting those that are in our lives now?
• 43:00
  How do we want to impact this world that we're on for such a short amount of time?
• 43:05
  Amen to that, brother.
• 43:07
  So I really appreciate you taking the time, particularly so close to the second birth
• 43:11
  of your child, your second child.
• 43:14
  I just, I really appreciate you.
• 43:16
  I want people to find you, you mention you train people, you have the keto bricks, we're
• 43:22
  going to put all those in the show notes.
• 43:24
  But you want to talk just as we come to a close a little bit about how you work with people
• 43:29
  so that should they feel inclined, they know what to expect?
• 43:34
  Yeah, yeah.
• 43:35
  So, you know, for the bricks, ketobrick.com, for working directly with me, I've gotten multiple
• 43:39
  different offerings depending on how involved people want to get.
• 43:42
  You know, I've got a book, I've got a free training app people can use and it's totally
• 43:46
  free.
• 43:47
  If they just want to start with that, don't invest any money, I've got a master class
• 43:50
  that's also free.
• 43:52
  But I've also got a membership site where I do a weekly live call, kind of like a group
• 43:56
  coaching setting, I've got an online course that's got tons of videos that walk people
• 44:00
  through this.
• 44:01
  My one-on-one coaching option, if they want to work directly with me, and that's all
• 44:04
  like ketobottiebuilding.com.
• 44:06
  If you were to say like, like what is Robert's psych's mission, why are you here on this
• 44:11
  planet?
• 44:12
  How would you say that to the person asking that question?
• 44:14
  Here's some deep questions, man.
• 44:16
  I wouldn't expect that philosophical talk today.
• 44:19
  I'd want to live a life in such a way that at my funeral, I would be overwhelmingly amazed
• 44:31
  at how many people came in a positive way.
• 44:34
  Not like in this, like you go to funerals.
• 44:36
  We've all been to funerals.
• 44:37
  So funerals are weird, man.
• 44:38
  Funerals are weird because it's like nobody knows the right emotions they're supposed
• 44:42
  to be having.
• 44:43
  Like they're all there to get it.
• 44:44
  They like seeing other family members mostly, like they don't know how to act, how to speak,
• 44:49
  what to do.
• 44:50
  Like I would want my life to leave a positive impact in a way such that after I'm gone,
• 44:59
  people are just better for knowing me.
• 45:04
  And then that's created an environment where they can help others all the more.
• 45:08
  Like I wanted to be a celebration and I want it to be done in a way that has a lasting
• 45:14
  legacy.
• 45:15
  Like I'm trying to build a brand and a business that maybe someday my kids would want to
• 45:18
  take over and continue to impact people in a positive way.
• 45:22
  That's not the expectation, but if it's there, if it's there for them, basically just
• 45:26
  living my life in a way that truly means I'm leaving the world a better place for
• 45:32
  my existence.
• 45:33
  Like we all have a finite amount of time here and that's all she wrote, you know, and
• 45:38
  we all have the opportunity to leave life better than we found it.
• 45:42
  And that's what I want to do.
• 45:43
  I actually approach every instance or I strive to approach every and every time I enter
• 45:50
  a new situation, really any situation, I'm literally thinking about that.
• 45:54
  How can I leave this situation where it was better than when I first arrived?
• 46:00
  And I have to say that has been my absolute experience of you.
• 46:05
  Every time I come into contact with you, I leave feeling better than when I arrived.
• 46:11
  So thank you so much for sharing your wild words.
• 46:15
  I appreciate you, man.
• 46:16
  I think the world of you, I'm grateful for knowing you.
• 46:18
  I'm better for knowing you.
• 46:19
  You make an impact at this.
• 46:20
  I keep knowing what you're doing, brother.
• 46:22
  Thank you and much congratulations to you and Crystal on your soon-to-be second child
• 46:27
  and much loved you guys.
• 46:30
  And you can find his podcast, actually, do you want to just share quickly your podcast?
• 46:33
  Yeah.
• 46:34
  So the podcast, we actually just changed the name from Keto Savage Podcast to the Savage
• 46:38
  Perspective Podcast.
• 46:40
  That's what we're on there.
• 46:42
  Excellent.
• 46:43
  You've been doing a long time and it's a great podcast.
• 46:46
  Thank you, Guillain Robert and wishing you all the best and please everyone that participated
• 46:51
  in today's episode, please stay curious.
• 46:53
  It's been a big theme for me today is maintaining curiosity and not judgment.
• 46:58
  But curiosity really is what we need more in this world.
• 47:01
  I'm grateful to Robert for continuing to provide curiosity, entertainment and education to
• 47:08
  everyone out there.
• 47:09
  So thank you, Guillain, for joining us on the Everyday Ancestral Podcast, be well.
• 47:16
  Thank you so much for joining me on Everyday Ancestral.
• 47:20
  If you enjoyed this episode, hit subscribe so you don't miss the next one.
• 47:25
  You can find the show notes, links and resources mentioned at eatpluck.com, that's e-a-t-p-l-u-c-k-dot-com.
• 47:35
  And hey, if you know someone who'd get something out of this, share it with them too.
• 47:41
  Stay curious, live well and keep it ancestral.