Latest / The Layback Podcast / Trevor Powers, Backside Groundballs Media (Ep. 70)

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Trevor Powers, Backside Groundballs Media (Ep. 70) · The Layback Podcast

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Hey everyone, welcome back to the Layback Podcast.
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Joining us today is Trevor Powers.
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Trevor is a Co founder of the Backside Ground Balls Media
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Group. So we're going to take a little
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bit different approach today as opposed to bringing on somebody
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that is super deep in the weeds when it comes to elbow injury
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research or something like that. As I'm sure you could tell by
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those last few episodes, we're we're going to take a step back
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and talk about kind of the nature of the game, especially
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at the college level. So with what Backside is doing,
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Trevor and his group really take deep dives into what is going on
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in player development at the collegiate level.
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They're helping grow the game like crazy.
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They have some awesome tours. They have some incredible stuff
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on YouTube and on Twitter. So definitely go check them out
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on social media. But with that, Trevor, I'm going
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to pass it over to you and please pick up the pieces for
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anything that I screwed up. The process, yeah, no worries.
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I obviously, First off, I appreciate you having me.
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I apologize to your listener. No PhD on on the end of my name.
1:01
Just a couple of master's degrees from from dragging
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myself around as a grad assistant at some different
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places. But yeah, I mean, you hit all
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the buttons there on on backside ground balls media.
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The my elevator pitch is we like to cover college baseball from a
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player development perspective, right.
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Just highlighting programs instead of the nuts and bolts of
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the box score and what happens on the field.
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While that's beautiful and that's a lot of fun from January
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ish, February ish till obviously now in June as we're recording
1:27
it with the final coming up this weekend, we like to cover
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college baseball 365 days a year.
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So we travel to cool places, we have great conversations and we
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try to produce the best content from that.
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So anybody who's interested in player development, hopefully
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we're given a good perspective of what behind the scenes life
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is like at all levels of college baseball.
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Beautiful. And we'll get the toughest
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question out of the way right up front.
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This isn't coming out until after the Championship has
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already been played. So who are we congratulating?
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I'm gonna. Have to go with LSU.
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I'm one of those guys that, you know, the talent sometimes if
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I'm gonna throw some money on some stuff which said we don't
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need to talk about nefarious activities like gambling and
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college athletics, but I'm gonna go, I'm gonna air on this side
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of the talent. But I love what Coastal's done
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and and what specifically coach Matt Williams has done on the
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pitching side. I don't know if you've ever been
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up to their ballpark or anybody who's listening to it.
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It is tiny. And the fact that that pitching
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staff has done what they have done this season with a tiny
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ballpark where the wind howls out to left coming off the
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shore, it is makes it even more impressive.
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And it comes as no surprise that the pitching staff's been as
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dominant as they've been in Omaha with the graveyard that
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those gaps are with. Now they can pitch a little bit
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more freely and confidently. And those home runs at their
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Home Park, which is they almost, they led the nation or they were
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one of the tops in the nation in the RA.
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So if they were preventing home runs in Conway, SC, they're
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obviously doing a really good job of preventing home runs in
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in Omaha, NE. So there you have it, Bayou,
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Bengals national champions. If that isn't how it plays out,
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Trevor is the guy to direct all hate to.
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I'm just here creating a platform for him.
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So I I didn't claim anything. This is all on Trevor, but yes,
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Trevor, thanks for the take. I know that is a little bit of
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what you guys offer with your Twitter Spaces and different
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things that you guys are doing during the week.
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It's been fun to tune into those, especially during the
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postseason. But let's let's step away a
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little bit from post season baseball because unfortunately
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the timeliness of this isn't going to be perfect.
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I would rather dive deep in the weeds right from here getting
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into who is doing player development well.
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So who right now is setting the standard as far as you are
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concerned? Yeah, I mean, for us, right?
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And the conversations we've had, everybody is chasing Arkansas.
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Chasing Arkansas from a player development perspective in terms
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of facilities alone is the obvious 1.
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You go there and it's Disneyland for baseball.
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People like you and I, you walk in there, you walk around that
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place and we didn't even bite off the half of it in terms of
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the video that we produce for them.
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And, and it was still unbelievable to to watch and,
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and picture what they have. And they are in a league of
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their own. But from a player development
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perspective, especially on the mound, obviously if you're a
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pitching guy in this space, you know the name Matt Hobbs.
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I had a friend that played for him at Wake Forest.
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And before moving on to professional baseball, I've long
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since thought Matt Hobbs was the best pitching coach in college
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baseball and one of the best pitching coaches in baseball in
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general, right. Talking about professionally as
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well. I know he's had opportunities to
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take professional pitching coaches jobs in that state at
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Arkansas, but it's very hard to kind of compete with what they
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have in terms of the minds that they have in that space.
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And then the most important piece is the translation of the
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information to the 18 year old kid, right?
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I can sit there and I can read and understand data or biomech
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or force, ground force and the things that are necessary to
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kind of develop guys and keep them healthy and make sure they
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perform come game time. But the ability to translate
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that to an 18 year old who all have different levels of
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understanding and what that information means for them is
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the most impressive part. And then being able to pull them
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out of that lab, put them on the mount and have them perform come
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game time, because that's a completely different beast.
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And I think when you watch what this pitching staff has done
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over the last couple years, and again, Arkansas has always had
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really good pitching. That's where Wes Johnson was
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before making the transition into professional baseball.
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It's been unbelievable what they've done and and the
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resources that they have and how they implemented into the
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day-to-day. So rounding out the Mount
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Rushmore, who would be your other three?
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You don't have to go as in depth if you don't want to because
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they that might run out our podcast if you give the full
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review on on every single one. But maybe who are those other
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two to four that you would say are close by just hanging on to
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those coattails maybe of Arkansas?
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I'll stick towards my bias. The guys at Arizona, which Kevin
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Vance just took the job at San Diego State, one of the best and
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smartest minds that we've been around.
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And again, kind of the same thing.
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And you see the success for people that don't know,
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everybody will see on TV that Arizonae field is huge.
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You'll see 340 down the lines. It's 4:05 and basically the gaps
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and to deep center. And you'd think this must be a
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pitchers paradise. The ball travels there and
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specifically in the early spring where it's cold everywhere else.
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It's obviously warm in Tucson, AZ and it's a jet stream.
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And Arizona has never really been known for their pitching.
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Well over the last two seasons specifically, I think they've
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won on the backs of their pitching.
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And in talking with guys that have played against them
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specifically in in regional and super regional setting, they
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weren't that overly impressed with the with the stuff of the
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guys on the mound, but they were overly impressed with the game
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plans and the execution of the game plans.
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Which to me, it says a lot about how a pitching staff, coaching
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staff prepares their guys when you are up there as a hitter and
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they're flipping over 2/1 breaking balls when you think
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you're going to get a fastball and they're getting ahead with
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fastballs. When you think you're going to
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get a breaking ball and you're in what I call 5050, where you
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can't really predict what the pitching coach or the catcher is
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going to call. I think that's what Arizona does
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really well. And looking at the guys that
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they've had a lot of young guys with really good stuff that are
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going to be really good in the future.
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And Coach Vance was partnered is is the director of pitching
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strategy who's now Arizona's pitching coach, John De Royne.
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They're both awesome. Some of the smartest guys in the
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space. That's with the people we've
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been around obviously wait for so you have a relationship with
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coach Muscar is is one of the best in the business.
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His ability to translate. It's a little bit more in New
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England, brash personality, which gravitates for some
7:42
people, but his ability to make improvements and adjustments for
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guys and and the way his pitchers talk about him and the
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respect and admiration they have for him is a really big piece in
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in mind. We don't get to interact with a
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ton of players, but when you have players like Rhett, Louder,
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Camenossi speaking in high regard for a pitching coach, you
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obviously know that they've done good things in development.
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And what Kristen does on the bio mechanic side, like she says,
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she's not a baseball person. She's one of the smartest
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baseball people I've ever talked to.
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Like just being honest with you. Like she could be a pitching
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coach if she wanted to. She understands baseball that
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well and her ability to translate it to go outside of
8:20
our biases, right? Because again, I would have to
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hit everybody. So I feel bad for for our guys
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at Miami and some of the other places we've been, which all
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have great pitching minds. And, and that I would say,
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obviously the box score matters to me, right?
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So looking at a couple programs that specifically, obviously
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I've already mentioned Coastal and what they've done.
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We're anticipating the ability to get there this offseason at
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some point. We have some ties to the
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program. We're hoping to get down there
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and talk pitching development. Obviously what Max Weiner did
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last year at Texas A&M and then this year at Texas, again, it's
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the ability when you see Staffs make a complete multi run ERA
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shift from year to year and it's one guy that comes in and makes
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a change. And sure, the athletes matter
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and sure, being able to develop guys and to have good stuff that
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matters, but there's a correlation there between Max
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Weiner stepping on AT2 separate Staffs and immediately
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improving. And again, when you see guys
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with B + C grade stuff, right, in terms of the Power 5 pitching
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to A-25, you know they're game planning, you know they have 5
9:18
pitches for strikes, you know where they're able to execute,
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when they need to execute, pitch backwards, confuse hitters.
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And those are usually the things that stand out to me.
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When you see, when we haven't been around these programs, when
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you watch them pitch and you're like, oh, he just landed a
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change up in account that you wouldn't expect anybody to be
9:35
able to land a change up. And that's how you know they're
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preparing and developing guys the right way.
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Wonderful. And it's so hard for me to
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respond on all of these because you are so much more tapped in
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than I am. I, I live in this niche world
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solely focused on elbows most of the time.
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Yeah, I watched the sport, but some of me watching the sport is
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more as a fan and then just working with the guys that we
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work with. So hearing just the in depth
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knowledge that you have, I, I feel like I am just tuning into
10:03
one of your episodes or something that you guys
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released. I'm, I'm giddy on my side of the
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microphone here, but you did mention coastal.
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It's so hard to even begin to consider Coastal a mid major
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given what they've done in baseball and how that school
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cares about baseball. But maybe who are some mid
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majors that you think are hitting with the big boys when
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it comes to pitching development or how they're investing in what
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they do? Yeah, 1 specifically that stood
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out this year was Western Kentucky.
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Western Kentucky was popping up during the season.
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We did a ton of graphics that were top pitching Staffs, Eras
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in the country and every week the the Hilltoppers were there.
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So at that point you start to take notice, right?
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And you start to kind of identify that as maybe that's
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somebody we want to get around and and talk to.
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We were supposed to get out there.
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Life circumstances happened on our end.
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We weren't able to make the trip out and spend some time with
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them. And now coach Napoleon's that
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he's up to Illinois just took a job with the fighting a lion I
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so we won't be able to talk to him directly.
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We could obviously get up to Illinois and and see what he's
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got going on and what they've they've been able to do.
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But it was really impressive to see what Western Kentucky was
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able to do and you see their guys and it's such an
11:17
interesting kind of balance in the landscape today.
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Like it should be something to be proud of that we're seeing
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Western Kentucky guys enter the portal and go to schools like
11:26
Auburn and and go to schools like Texas A&M and Tennessee and
11:30
these schools being interested in your best players.
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But it stinks that that's what the reality of the sport is.
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But I think it showcases just how good they've been in terms
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of development that Power 5 SEC programs are interested in
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taking these guys at a mid major program and penciling them into
11:48
high leverage bullpen roles, even potentially starting roles
11:51
next year because of the development that they had at a
11:55
previous stop. The other one that stood out
11:57
this year, obviously Northeastern with Mike Lavin,
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who the Glavin name means so much in the baseball community,
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but it's another program that stood out as a team that
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constantly popped up in the top five of ERA.
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They won a ton of baseball games.
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They really dominated the CAA this year, which the CAA is a
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great baseball conference and because of Northeastern complete
12:17
just domination of of the league.
12:19
They ended up being a one bid league because they ran away
12:22
with the with the regular season title and and they really didn't
12:25
lose for an extended period of time.
12:27
They ran into an absolute buzzsaw of a regional having to
12:30
go to to Florida State and having Mississippi State,
12:33
another powerful program in their regional as the three C.
12:37
But that's a program that has done a great job over the years
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of developing pitchers and obviously you see their success
12:43
this year. It comes as no surprise when
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Mike Lavin is your head coach, but I think it's really
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important to kind of identify that as a team that's really
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doing things right on the pitching side.
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A few of these schools that you mentioned you particularly hit
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on their coach, not just on their systems or the tools that
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they have. So I do want to spend some time
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on the actual labs or the development systems that these
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teams or universities are creating.
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We talked a little bit about this before we started the
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camera and kick things off today.
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But how important do you think is having the tools versus
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having the horses? And then maybe the third piece
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of having the farmer or having the director, the coach who's,
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how do you use the tools, How do you use the horses?
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That has to come from somewhere. So I don't know if you have
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biases of what's most important, how do you rank these things,
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but I'm sure there's a heavy mix that I'd love to hear a bit more
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from you on. If so, my perspective as the
13:50
conversations we have and I always gravitate towards
13:53
coaches. Right before the season we were
13:56
previewing some stuff because as you've mentioned a couple of
13:58
times, we do cover the sport. We do talk about the sort that
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happens over the weekend. A phrase that I found myself
14:03
saying a lot in the early season was people in programs, right?
14:07
I trust people in programs. I don't want to look at the
14:09
roster and know this guy was really good at this Mountain
14:12
West school last year and this guy's a potential draft guy and
14:15
play that game of like diving into the roster.
14:17
I want to put my backing into people and programs, right?
14:22
And the reason I always say that is because you see on the
14:25
hitting side, I'm a hitting guy, even though we've talked so much
14:28
about pitching today and obviously you're a pitching guy,
14:31
but you see guys go to Tennessee and just instantly get better on
14:35
the offensive side of things. There's a common denominator
14:38
there, no matter who that one through 9 is, right?
14:40
Whether it's Christian Moore or Andrew Fisher or Gavin Kylan or
14:44
Blake Burke, no matter who's hitting in that lineup, Josh E
14:47
Lander's the guy that's pulling the strings in terms of the
14:49
development. So guys are able to then trust
14:52
their development on that side of things because Coach E Lander
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has been there for so long. And that's always what I've
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meant by people and programs. There's common denominators
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between successful offensive programs, and a lot of times
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it's at the same schools, the same places, and on the pitching
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side, it's the same thing. So my brain always goes to the
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farmer itself, right? The the coach, the guy who's
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overseeing it. But it does become a balance
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because I think that it's how you implement that information.
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That's the thing I've learned the most, being out on the road
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and having these conversations. A lot of places have the tech or
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at least have the investment to get the tech, but that is
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rendered useless if you don't have somebody who can then
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translate that on to an instantaneously on the mound to
15:37
improve whatever you are working on improving.
15:40
Right? New force can attract track man
15:43
edgers. Anything that you speak about in
15:45
the player development tech space, if we just have that and
15:49
we tell the recruit, yes, we have it, but we don't know how
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to implement that into your development strategy.
15:55
You're not getting every ounce of potential out of the horses,
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right? Which is the third element of
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this is is the horses that you get recruiting matters.
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I'm never going to be somebody that says recruiting and talent
16:06
doesn't matter, but there's certain programs that milk every
16:09
ounce of potential out of their recruits, right?
16:12
They they trust their development.
16:13
I'm going to keep relying on Arkansas.
16:16
Carson Wiggins, who was a guy who could have made a lot of
16:18
money in the draft last year and probably in 2008, doesn't even
16:21
think about going to college. But Carson Wiggins decides to
16:24
trust his development with Matt Hobbs and he shows up on campus
16:27
and he's really good before he ends up getting hurt, right?
16:30
Which is unfortunate. But when you throw 101, there's
16:33
there's risk involved in that. And I don't think it was
16:35
overwork or anything that led to that injury.
16:37
I just think it was circumstantial.
16:39
Cole Gibbler's another guy who pitches in high leverage
16:42
situations for Arkansas, a guy who could have made some money.
16:45
He doesn't have like elite overpowering velocity.
16:48
He came out this year. Last night.
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He walks into the game against LSU 26 2/3 innings with 56
16:53
strikeouts and eleven walks as a true freshman.
16:55
He could have went and made a lot of money in the draft.
16:58
But now that he's come to Arkansas, he's going to make
17:00
more money. And not to name any programs
17:03
because it is circumstantial, but there are programs out there
17:07
where guys kind of make that decision of do I go to college
17:10
and potentially rise into the first round and get a lot more
17:12
money or do I go take the guaranteed money on the front
17:15
end of being a professional baseball player.
17:17
And those guys don't see the same success as they do at these
17:21
other programs because while they are the horses and they are
17:24
getting the horses, they're not giving them the necessary TLC to
17:28
make sure when they step on the mountain in their development
17:31
and their trajectory to be the best version of themselves three
17:34
years down the road. And then beyond that, a lot of
17:37
these programs welcome in pro guys back and because they trust
17:40
these really smart minds with their development.
17:42
And the pro guys even go back and want to work with guys like
17:46
Matt Hobbs and Corey Muscar and these guys at the top of the
17:49
sport because they know that they have their best interest in
17:52
mind and there's nobody that knows them better and how they
17:54
move and how they perform better than those guys that spent.
17:57
Three years with them. You mentioned a few different
17:59
technologies in there. We we could run a whole grocery
18:03
list of different technologies. Obviously we are one there.
18:07
There are different tools that can be used by schools, players,
18:10
whatever and the applications are many.
18:12
What are the tools, the technologies that you are seeing
18:17
as most sought after or most implemented by the orgs that you
18:23
guys are checking on right now? So whether it's track man,
18:26
whether it's new force or various force plates or camera
18:30
systems, I'd love to hear just from your touring around, what
18:35
technologies are you seeing as most prevalent?
18:38
Well, first of all, what you guys have done on the the health
18:41
and, and preventing elbow injuries, I think is part of the
18:44
future of the sport. So give yourself some a ton of
18:47
credit because I know you guys are a major part of a lot of
18:50
these programs and, and we see your what would you call them?
18:53
It's just tech devices, what devices, OK, machines, OK, so
18:58
you see those a lot. So, so definitely that's a part
19:01
of the future and what you guys have built at Flexburg grip is,
19:04
is obviously a big piece of the development and making sure both
19:07
sides of the we're getting stronger, we're getting better,
19:10
but we're also staying healthy, right, which is the most
19:12
important part. And I know that's what your
19:14
passion is, is in making sure guys are not only getting
19:17
better, but also able to actually pitch right, like crazy
19:20
concept, like actually get out in the game and pitch and and
19:22
perform. The two that have stood out for
19:25
obvious reasons, because the names are synonymous, is
19:27
everybody's heard. The kin attracts bio mechanic
19:30
system they have on field and then they have the lab systems.
19:33
It's really cool to be able to see and prevent injuries down
19:37
the road of being able to see how a guy is moving and how the
19:40
kinetic chain is working and being able to see if there is a
19:43
leak and maybe can we pull back workload on a guy or give him an
19:47
extra day of rest or, or what's going on that could have led to
19:50
this. It's not 100% foolproof, but a
19:53
lot of the people that we have worked with, they've especially
19:55
be on field, right? Because the labs are one thing,
19:57
but that's a different environment.
19:59
That's not high leverage, that's not high adrenaline.
20:01
That's not these big moments where a guy could move a little
20:04
bit differently. He could overcompensate and try
20:07
to throw that thing A. 110 through the backstop, rather
20:10
than allowing his body to move when he's in the lab, he's just
20:13
a kind of chill environment, allowing himself to just be
20:16
freely. The one that has for All Star
20:18
passed a lot more recently and it was something that stood out
20:22
as we got to these programs was New Force and New Forces.
20:25
They are going to an integrated pitching lab system, so they are
20:30
dabbling in everything from ball flight, ground forces where they
20:33
got their start in and then also bio mechanics.
20:36
The big thing that New Force prides itself on is that instant
20:40
feedback pitch to pitch right? While it's great to have all
20:44
this information and technology, we don't always have time to
20:48
pull a report, to pull a slow motion to do all these things.
20:53
What Newt Force prides themselves on is if I'm the
20:55
pitching coach and I'm working with the specific pitcher, he
20:58
throws a pitch, we can take that information, have it right in
21:01
front of us and say, hey, try this.
21:04
We need you to do this to to get more ground, Force, we need your
21:07
brakes to be a little bit stronger.
21:09
We need to make sure we're we're working down the mound as
21:12
quickly and efficiently as possible.
21:14
Try this queue. OK, We realized, you know,
21:17
brakes aren't we get a freshman in and he's and he's all gas, no
21:20
brakes, right? He throws hard, but he's just a
21:22
wild horse, right? Running out in the in the in the
21:25
wilderness, right? OK, well, we can get them on
21:28
some water bags. We can make sure we train those
21:30
breaks and things like that. So New Force, I think has an
21:33
opportunity to completely take over college baseball because
21:36
what they're trying to do is take what everybody does well.
21:39
Right Track Man does one thing well.
21:40
We have the Edrotronics do another thing well.
21:42
We have Ken Attractions, the bio mechanics, and they do that
21:45
really well. What New Force is trying to do
21:46
is do take all of them into one and give the coach that instant
21:50
feedback in one platform from one mound in one system and be
21:54
able to then get it to your pitchers in an efficient banner
21:58
to make sure that those guys end up being able to make those
22:00
adjustments. So that development time isn't,
22:03
hey, I threw a thirty pitch pen. Hey, here's what the data is
22:06
telling us. Now we have to wait five days,
22:08
right, to get you back on the mound, get you back up or
22:11
there's a game between then and we don't want to confuse you and
22:14
give you too much information. What they're trying to do is,
22:17
hey, you got 30 pitches to get better.
22:18
Let's maximize these 30 pitches by getting instant feedback each
22:22
and every time you throw a ball. I've got a couple routes I want
22:25
to go down here. 1st I'm going to ask a new force specific
22:28
question. For the teams that have new
22:31
force, do they have one mound? Do they have a couple of mounds?
22:36
What are what are you seeing? Because I don't even know the
22:39
price point for new force or what it looks like to bring new
22:42
force on. Everywhere we've been has only
22:44
had one mound, so it'll be a lab space and and a lot of times
22:48
they have the whole setup, the cameras, the track bands and
22:51
they have the new force mound right now.
22:54
Georgia is the first one that has the full integrated pitching
22:57
lab. We have not been to Georgia
22:58
where intentions is to get to Georgia.
23:00
We got to finalize a date to get out there and and see kind of
23:04
what the full integrated pitching lab looks like and and
23:07
how new forces product looks in that setting compared to
23:10
everywhere we've been. It's been a piece of the puzzle,
23:13
right? It's been the mound.
23:14
So they have the ground force with the track man, with the bio
23:17
mechanics and with all the tech that you have on top of it.
23:20
Georgia has the setup that's like the whole shebang of what
23:23
new forces trending towards building in that in in their
23:26
integrated pitching lab. OK, Well, appreciate that.
23:29
Yes, I, I just needed that. I needed to know that I don't
23:33
even care if the audience didn't care.
23:34
I. Needed to know.
23:35
That because I always like knowing what is coming down the
23:39
line for these labs. What can we expect now?
23:42
Obviously education and communication goes a long way
23:46
with how data gets presented and then used by a player, right?
23:52
It's one thing to have all this tech, it's another thing to
23:55
present it. And one thing that I've seen is
23:58
a lot of the groups that present it the best.
24:01
Yes, you have your excellent communicators and we've given
24:04
those guys their flowers. And of course there's others
24:07
than the ones that have been mentioned thus far on this
24:09
podcast. Those are just ones that you
24:11
obviously have interacted with or that you know that I have
24:13
interacted with. I'm curious if you are seeing a
24:16
competitive edge in the groups that have analytics teams or
24:23
data teams that can take information and make it
24:26
digestible. So beyond like Wakes analytics
24:30
team, are there other schools? I know Iowa has a great one that
24:35
you are seeing as a true weapon where they can take this data
24:38
and make it actionable. I think when you talk about the
24:41
data in the tech, it's it's probably the most important
24:44
thing, right? We were down at Miami yesterday
24:46
as we record this in Coach Artiaga.
24:48
He had mentioned that when he took the job, they had already
24:51
been in, in the works of getting this technology and coach
24:55
Artiago was a pitching coach from 2003 until they got the
24:58
head coaching job. He's been at Miami for 23 years.
25:00
He's seen a complete wave of the, the tech and, and the
25:03
information and and all of the data.
25:06
And he was talking about in in such an admirable way, to be
25:09
this honest and blunt about it. He didn't even know how to turn
25:12
an edge or tronic camera on for the longest time, right?
25:14
He needed help to do those things.
25:16
And when he took the head coaching job at Miami, he was
25:18
like, this tech is useless If we don't, we don't have somebody
25:22
that can interpret it and be able to get that information and
25:26
digest that information. Congratulations, we have in game
25:29
bio, bio mechanics. But if we don't have a bio
25:31
mechanist here or somebody who understands why it's important
25:35
at the very least to translate that to the guy that we're
25:38
trying to develop, we are wasting our money on our
25:40
subscription. We're wasting our money on the
25:42
implementation of it. We might as well not even have
25:44
the technology, right. And I think that's where it's
25:47
the most important thing. And, and I think where you can
25:49
see the divide as a mid major, your program, you're kind of
25:53
fighting an uphill battle because you don't have the
25:55
resources to go hire a full time director of analytics or a full
25:59
time bio mechanist or these positions that these schools
26:03
have and offer and and are produced by the school for
26:07
research purposes, right. West Virginia just hired a full
26:09
time bio mechanist. And like it's partially just as
26:12
much on the research and the things as it is on the baseball
26:15
development side of things. So if you're a school that just
26:18
has a pitching coach, you have to be multiple and these
26:21
languages that you speak in, not everybody has the luxury or the
26:25
brain power, quite frankly. Like we can only remember so
26:27
much. And if you're worried about
26:28
calling pitches on on a Tuesday afternoon, then you got to go
26:31
read a bio mechanics report. You're probably already, you
26:34
know, filled up in terms of your capacity.
26:37
So it's so fascinating to me because it is the translation
26:40
and the implementation and having the team, the army, as
26:43
I've heard people call it, of people that are just really
26:46
intelligent in this information is what matters most.
26:50
It's fascinating because every school it was different.
26:52
Matt Hobbs intentionally, there's two things.
26:54
He says they don't call it a lab.
26:56
Intentionally. He's like, this is a baseball
26:58
development center. They call it the pitching, the
27:00
PDC. He essentially doesn't call it a
27:02
lab because he says we're not doing research, we're making
27:04
better baseball players, right? And he's very intentional about
27:07
that. And he was a big part of
27:08
building Wake Forest's lab as well.
27:10
And he has a great relationship with Kristen.
27:12
The other thing is they don't have a bio mechanist.
27:15
He understands it partially because of the work he's done in
27:17
the past, DJ backs and dying. They have a director pitching on
27:20
top of DJ that all work in collaboration.
27:23
But his whole thing is I want baseball people that understand
27:27
why it matters to baseball itself, to translate it to
27:31
baseball players. And I think it's fascinating
27:33
because there's multiple ways to skin the cat right at all of
27:36
these different places. It works right everywhere that
27:39
you go and these places that implement it in a really good
27:42
way. But the main thing is seeing how
27:44
each school maybe does things a little differently and what
27:47
their priorities are. But at the end of the day it
27:49
always comes down to how you translate that information.
27:52
Digest it to an 18 year old kid to make sure that he implements
27:55
it when he steps on the rubber. One of the mid majors that I
27:59
want to give a shout out to, they're near and dear to our
28:03
heart because we've worked with them for a couple years.
28:05
But Lindenwood University and just outside of St.
28:07
Louis, MO, they as a pitching staff, they have led their
28:11
conference in ERA back-to-back seasons.
28:14
They recently transitioned from D2 to D1 and they made it all
28:18
the way to the conference championship game this year.
28:20
So obviously they have a bright future in under pitching coach
28:25
Denton McNamee. The pitching staff has done
28:27
incredible things, but one of the things that he implemented
28:31
this past school year was a student driven data and
28:36
analytics team to try to match what the Wake Forests are doing,
28:40
what Tennessee has, what Iowa has, and what frankly a lot of
28:45
these massive schools have. At Lindenwood, it has started
28:48
off with a 5 man team, but that's a great place to start if
28:54
you have people that can handle and clean your data and give
28:59
players actionable reports. Because then that takes the load
29:03
off of how you explain the coach on a Tuesday who has to turn
29:07
around, crunch all these numbers and give it to a player to
29:10
actually make them improve. When you talk to people like
29:14
Corey Muscara, one of the things that he always harps on is he
29:19
tries to surround himself with people that are smarter than
29:22
him. That way he can just focus on
29:24
what he needs to focus on. In any time a blip on the radar
29:28
shows up, he can just go talk to someone.
29:31
That way you can take the load off of yourself and really focus
29:35
on what matters most, which is getting your players better in
29:39
the offseason and then in season winning ball games. 100% and
29:44
it's so it's so important to coaching, right?
29:47
Like is having people around you that you can rely on for the
29:51
things that might not be your strength.
29:53
We all have our strengths in terms of things really in life,
29:56
but specifically in like, I think I'm really good at this,
30:00
being able to have somebody to maybe, like you said, take that
30:03
load off of your back to be able to get the juice out of out of
30:07
what you need in terms of the information and be able to
30:09
continue to develop. And I think the most important
30:13
part too is that you're not one-on-one, right?
30:16
And we've been to some facilities that are like just
30:19
actual like stand alone facilities where you get
30:21
one-on-one time with a guy. The thing that's most impressive
30:24
about college coaches is they're working with 19 guys, 20 guys
30:28
that are all pitching and guess what?
30:30
Not a single one of them moves the same way, has the same arm,
30:34
you know, release height, you know, arm angle, all these
30:37
information pieces, Their fastballs move different.
30:39
Like you don't want cookie cutter guys because if you're
30:41
rolling out the same guy who throws the same speed from the
30:44
same slot and the same movement patterns, and you're probably
30:46
not going to be very good by the game three of the weekend when
30:49
the team you're playing is has seen them.
30:51
And being able to have multiple people, or at least be the
30:54
chameleon, as I like to say, of being being adaptable enough to,
30:58
Hey, I know how to coach a sink guy compared to then being able
31:01
to the next guy steps up on the rubber.
31:02
It's like now I need to coach a ride guy.
31:04
I had to 12/6 compared to sinker slider guy.
31:07
And being able to be adaptable in those moments and be able to
31:10
know how to translate that message and not get consumed by
31:13
one guy might need more ground force.
31:16
One guy might need to be obsessed with the track man and
31:19
being able to digest all that information and dumb it down to
31:21
what that individual needs. Having student analytics and
31:24
Staffs like that, I think it's the most important thing for
31:27
especially mid major coaches. Like you mentioned that coach
31:29
McNamara at Lindenwood like he's got enough going on his plate,
31:33
right? He's worried about recruiting,
31:34
he's worried about the portal, all these things like that
31:36
because thus magically kick start while your season's still
31:39
going on all those things and you need somebody to help you.
31:42
And sometimes those student managers can be the difference
31:44
between being able to to maximize your pitchers and and
31:47
it doesn't show up in the box score as much as the pitching
31:49
coach it does. During your response, I thought
31:52
of a new statistic that I would love for you guys to debut next
31:55
year. You could probably do advanced
31:57
statistics and start to get predictive at some point, but a
32:01
player development budget versus wins statistic and you guys
32:06
could monitor that. Yeah, who's who's getting the
32:08
most bang for their buck? Based on everything we talk
32:11
about, Arkansas should be really freaking good all the time.
32:15
Do we not knowing what goes into it financially or something?
32:20
Do they believe they're underperforming even though they
32:23
go to Omaha seemingly every single year?
32:26
I think that would be a fun one that you guys would probably be
32:28
better suited to create than anybody in the game.
32:32
Definitely. I, I think that's something
32:33
we'll have to, we'll have to do some research and, and maybe put
32:36
some, some feelers out there to see if we can get budgets and,
32:40
and how much they're paying on subscriptions.
32:42
Because I know some of these schools, you're right, like
32:44
there's a lot going to subscriptions a year based on
32:46
some of the technology that they have.
32:48
Oh yeah, there, there's no question about it.
32:50
One, I would be really interested in that statistic,
32:53
but two, I figured we we could take I guess the light hearted
32:57
spin on just because you spend the money, it doesn't mean that
33:00
you're guaranteed results. Yes.
33:03
And and I think that's again, we don't have to name names, but
33:07
every SEC program at to a certain extent is committed.
33:11
Some are more committed than others, but not everyone wins,
33:14
right? And I think that's the thing
33:16
when, and I said it earlier, the box score does tell us a lot of
33:19
stories, right? I could come up here and him and
33:22
Haw and say all the right things.
33:23
But if my 35 guys don't believe in my message and and how we're
33:27
developing players and it doesn't translate to the field
33:30
and an on field success specifically, you might not be
33:34
as good of a coach as maybe you can put off right and and use
33:38
that persona. That's one of my favorite things
33:39
about going to these places is you have to remind yourself and
33:42
not that we've been anywhere bad.
33:43
So if anybody's listening and this is like you're talking
33:45
about my part now we're not. We've been nowhere bad.
33:48
Everywhere is great. You have to remind yourself that
33:51
head coaches have to interview to get head coaching jobs,
33:53
right? So they're naturally learn how
33:56
to speak and kind of spin a message to whatever you want to
33:59
hear. And so you can get caught up and
34:01
a lot of coaches will wrap their wrap you around their finger
34:04
quicker than you can even imagine because they're always
34:06
recruiting. That's their life.
34:08
So when you get around, they don't even realize they're just
34:10
talking about player development, their program and
34:12
things like that. And next thing you're like, I
34:13
love this guy. And then you go out and they
34:15
don't succeed on the field and you're like, how does that
34:17
happen? It's like there's 300 programs
34:19
that have guys that that are like that, right, that are good
34:22
speakers, but it's the implementation of that side of
34:26
things. You could be a bad speaker, but
34:27
if you implement it and guys get better under your watch, that's
34:31
the most important thing at the end of the day.
34:33
I want to switch the nature of the conversation a little bit
34:37
because you talk about it so much in the player development
34:39
side, obviously, because that's what you're passionate about.
34:42
What you also have a great insight to is where these
34:46
programs are headed. Thus, you could probably give
34:50
really solid recommendations for how a potential recruit should
34:55
go about asking questions or go about taking inventory on where
35:00
is it worth it for them to spend their time and their recruiting
35:04
process. So we'll talk about schools
35:07
again in a minute, but now switching to focusing on the
35:12
recruit. Given everything you see in the
35:14
player development world, what are a couple questions that you
35:20
would say are must? Asks, yeah, probably no question
35:24
specifically that I can think of, but I think do it like
35:27
educating recruits to do their own research, right?
35:30
Like that's one of the things that we're most passionate about
35:32
is being able to get to these programs and allow them to give
35:35
their spin on how they utilize stuff.
35:38
And you can kind of see right through fake, right?
35:41
It is my best way to describe it.
35:42
If you go to a program and let's say you've digested all of our
35:46
stuff and I'm not just doing that for clicks perspective
35:48
again, we have we have Matt Hobbs for 35 minutes.
35:51
We have Kevin Vance and John Deroyne for 35 minutes.
35:53
We're going to have the guys from Miami for multiple minutes.
35:56
We've we've been to Wake Forest's lab, broken down what
35:59
they've done all of these things.
36:01
And if you go to a place and and you've listened and you've
36:03
digest, you've done your own research, you've taught yourself
36:06
these things and the messaging just doesn't seem as linear and
36:10
consistent as it did at some of the programs that are the top.
36:13
And and these coaches, when they speak on a public platform that,
36:16
you know, do a really good job, I think that's when the red
36:19
flags go up to a certain extent. Obviously, that kind of leads
36:23
that knowledge base of what the tech is or how player
36:26
development works and things like that.
36:28
That's going to kind of lead you to the right questions.
36:30
Like, you know, you're going to be able to ask, OK, you have the
36:33
tech, but what does that mean? Right?
36:35
What does that mean for me specifically?
36:38
Hey, if I'm a guy who rides my fastball and pitches at the top
36:41
of the zone and is successful, I really need to start working on
36:44
my breaking ball. How are you going to help me add
36:47
that breaking ball to be the best version of myself, right?
36:50
If I'm a high school pitcher who needs to add 20 lbs of muscle,
36:53
how are you going to give me the nutrition and the and the
36:56
strength and conditioning to make sure that by the time I
36:59
step on the mound, I'm a well oiled machine that can handle
37:02
the workload of a Friday night starter in your conference?
37:05
All of those questions that come from the knowledge base of doing
37:08
your own research and being, you know, understanding of yourself
37:12
and what you need specifically. Don't just think you're the
37:15
superstar that's going to walk in and I have good enough stuff
37:18
to get college outs and things like that.
37:20
Understand maybe where you need to get better and then ask the
37:24
coach for an in depth plan. That was the coolest thing about
37:27
when we went out to Arizona. When I first talked to John
37:29
about going out, he said, we're going to do this exactly what
37:32
like we would do with a recruit, right?
37:34
We're going to put up, we're going to break down how we use
37:36
the tech and things like that. If schools are shying away from
37:40
showing you how the proverbial bacon is made the, the behind
37:44
the scenes of of how these things are are put together,
37:47
There's probably a reason for that, right?
37:49
And and I think that's when you want to put your antenna up and
37:52
go, OK, that's a little odd. Whereas school Y that I visited
37:57
2 weeks ago was like, here's our systems, here's where we think
38:01
you fit in, here's where we think we can add to what you
38:04
already have, and this is how we're going to get you better.
38:07
Part of my motivation in asking that question is what I hear
38:11
from coaches all the time is kids saying I want to go
38:14
somewhere where I can develop, but what does that mean?
38:17
What does develop mean mean? One, I want to know from the
38:20
kid, what does development mean to you?
38:22
But also when you ask it to a coach, I want to know what a
38:26
plan is. So now I I definitely want to go
38:29
back and watch you guys at Arizona to understand what
38:32
development means there. So one of my biggest takeaways
38:37
from what you said is try to get a plan.
38:40
Of course, a coach doesn't always know who you are and they
38:43
won't have that full picture until you actually step foot on
38:46
campus. But if there is a take home
38:49
message, it's try to get a plan from a coach.
38:52
What does development of you look like to them?
38:56
Yeah, I would say that that's the most important thing.
38:58
And just like being open to feedback that might be a little
39:01
harsh and and you might not want to hear.
39:04
It's like, hey, it's a pitch here.
39:05
You're going to have to be X and you might not want to hear that
39:09
right then. But it's better to hear that in
39:12
October of your junior year when you're going through the
39:14
recruiting process than it is October of your freshman year
39:17
when you thought that you're the best thing that's ever touched
39:20
this earth. And then you're getting rocked
39:21
in the fall. And they go, yeah, you got to
39:23
work on XY and Z and, and we don't really know how we're
39:26
going to do that or you end up concerned about your overall
39:28
trajectory and path. It's just about asking the right
39:31
questions and asking for that feedback and making sure you're
39:33
in a position to take that feedback and implement it.
39:36
And the big thing I've always said too, is that continues once
39:39
you're committed as well, right? Like you commit to a school so
39:43
many times high school athletes like they think the commitment's
39:46
the finish line, like the commitment is the is the gun
39:49
going off to start the race in my mind, right?
39:51
Like the commitment is like the, the bare level of like your
39:54
baseball career, right? Anybody's played college
39:57
baseball knows those things they remember.
39:58
And you don't remember high school baseball that much.
40:00
You remember your four years of college baseball and the
40:02
experiences you have so many times high school kids and
40:05
recruits, they want to get to that finish line, if that.
40:08
Instagram post and that dopamine hit that comes from, yeah, I'm
40:10
going to X university and you get to feel good when you have
40:13
98 comments and 2000 likes on it.
40:16
But the reality is, is that's just the beginning of your
40:19
journey and you should start having those conversations like,
40:22
hey, for me to succeed on campus, what do I need to do
40:25
when I show up August 1st of my freshman year and move in?
40:29
What do I need to be and what do I need to do to succeed as much
40:33
as possible? Continuing down this path of
40:36
recruiting for a bit, but don't worry, I promise it goes right
40:40
back into player development. Now I want to talk about re
40:45
recruiting. Not getting recruited in another
40:47
school, but a coach convincing their guys why they made the
40:53
right decision one year ago, two years ago, three years ago.
40:57
Where they can really develop from an 18 or 19 year old bright
41:02
eyed bushy tailed kid when they showed up to a certified dude
41:06
with a degree as a draft prospect when they leave.
41:09
So whether you want to talk about specific coaches that you
41:12
are seeing develop guys while long term or programs that you
41:16
can really speak to that are seeing guys through.
41:20
For true 3. 4 potentially even five year careers now at this
41:25
point. Are there schools or coaches
41:27
that you can fall off of your head?
41:30
So the one that stands out to me is, is Tom Walter at Wake
41:33
Forest. We sat down, we had a
41:34
conversation with him and it was more culture wise, less player
41:38
development, but obviously those are super valuable in this space
41:41
and, and understanding. And we asked him that.
41:43
And again, maybe it's off the record that he said this, but
41:46
I'm pretty sure it was on the podcast episode.
41:48
It was a long time ago. We're now rounding out probably
41:51
16-17 months since we had this conversation, but his main thing
41:54
was just being honest with the with the prospect, right, of
41:58
being able to kind of paint your vision for what their journey's
42:02
going to be. And some guys can perform right
42:05
away. Like at Wake Forest, Nick Kurtz
42:07
came in and he was a focal point in their lineup day one and he
42:10
barely spent any time in the minor leagues.
42:11
And now he's a big leader. That is the ideal journey that
42:15
everybody thinks they're going to be on, but it's not the
42:17
reality for most guys, right? And in the transfer portal era,
42:21
it's so easy to get caught up in other opportunities or potential
42:25
fits and make feeling like you made a bad decision because you
42:28
didn't play right away. But I think the coaches that do
42:31
the best is they outline that development for the guy.
42:34
Hey, this is what the plan looks like, right?
42:37
We're going to put you in a position where you're going to
42:40
gain muscle mass and improve how you move the first year so that
42:43
when you step on the mound in Year 2, you might only get 15 to
42:47
20 innings, but you're going to be in a better position to not
42:49
only succeed when you get out there, but you're also going to
42:52
stay healthier. Then after year 2, we're going
42:55
to put you into a position where you're going to fringe midweek
42:57
start high leverage reliever and, and outlining that path for
43:01
that guy and being honest and not lying and saying, Hey, we
43:04
think you could be a guy for us. And then next thing you know,
43:07
they come in, they're pitched 2 innings that year.
43:09
So his, his ability to translate that information and, and talk
43:13
about how important it is to just flat out be honest with
43:16
guys, right? And it's on both sides.
43:18
If if you don't think a guy can perform, it's now being forced
43:22
on coach's hands with with hard caps of 35 and rosters
43:26
decreasing. But if you don't think a kid can
43:28
perform, just tell them and then help them get to their next
43:31
spot. Whether it's kicking down a
43:32
level to a mid major school kicking from mid major to D2D3.
43:36
They want to go home making some phone calls and helping that kid
43:39
find his spot and treating at the end of the day the player
43:43
like a human and that's when the development gets translated.
43:47
The best is these programs that understand that that is a human
43:51
being there and making sure that you get in constant
43:54
communication with them about what you see, their potential to
43:58
be and what they need to do to get there and not worry about
44:02
hurting feelings and having those tough conversations.
44:04
Because I think that's why so many shy away from those
44:07
conversations. Like, well, if I tell him he's
44:08
only going to get 15 innings next year, he's not coming back,
44:11
right? Another school's promising him
44:13
40 in a starter role, but explain the why.
44:16
And you think that he's only going to get 15 innings.
44:18
Hey, you're not physically ready to get on the mound and not blow
44:22
out, right? And put yourself in harm's way.
44:24
We have data, we have information, and we have reasons
44:27
why we think you need to do this before you can do that.
44:30
And I think the programs that do that best and can outline it,
44:33
it's because they know what they're doing and then you
44:36
believe it as a prospect because they know what they're doing and
44:38
they're genuine about how they go about it.
44:41
And that's why you see programs be able to hold on to guys for a
44:44
tick longer than you would think.
44:46
Even when guys don't perform or see the field right away, it's
44:48
because those conversations are happening behind closed doors.
44:53
I'm always going to be pro player in everything.
44:56
I always want players to chase down whatever opportunity they
44:59
think is going to be best for them.
45:02
You have one career, you should live it however you see fit.
45:07
I encourage anyone to do that. But then on the other side, I
45:11
have so much respect for the programs that are able to keep
45:15
guys who on paper are super talented or do nothing their
45:21
first couple years out of school.
45:23
And next thing you know, they're the biggest deal when they're a
45:26
junior or senior or fifth year. And one, props to the kid for
45:30
finding a program that they fit well in and they really feel
45:33
good about. And then props to the coaches
45:35
for not only convincing that kid that that is a spot for him, but
45:41
truly investing in the career of that athlete.
45:44
Not just the season, not just the opportunity or the potential
45:49
economic payoff of having this kid for a little bit, but truly
45:53
nurturing that kid to what he can be long term.
45:56
I, I will always celebrate that. Not to turn this into a complete
46:01
recruiting talk. I do want to shift to our
46:04
current stage in baseball. Not just the transfer portal,
46:09
but funds are about to go crazy with the expanded scholarship
46:15
limits. Now, the fact that every guy can
46:18
be on scholarship at a school, not every school is going to do
46:21
that. Of course, it requires
46:23
significant financial backing to get there, but there's going to
46:26
be more money in the sport, especially at the highest level.
46:30
And then on top of that, there's nil deals.
46:32
So now how this applies to player development, are you
46:37
seeing the arms race change a little bit?
46:40
Are the financial allocations going to change now from a
46:45
player attraction perspective? Does it truly shift to we're
46:49
just going to pay more guys or is it still we're going to have
46:52
the brightest and shiniest things to get guys to come in?
46:57
Yeah, I think it has to be the latter of being able to pay
47:02
matters, right. And maybe it shouldn't.
47:04
But in terms of allocation of funds, if I mean, you have a
47:08
business, I have a business, if we have an opportunity to to
47:12
spend money in a different way and guarantee that this person's
47:16
going to sign on the dotted line, it's a smart business
47:19
decision at that point compared to adding a lab or adding a
47:23
piece of technology or improving the locker rooms or any of these
47:27
things. And again, we rely on these
47:29
facilities to be nice enough for us to come hang out and walk
47:32
around. But the reality is, is
47:34
professional baseball doesn't put money into their facilities
47:38
all the time, right? They have nice facilities, but
47:41
it's not like the flashiness that a college facility is.
47:44
Why? Because guess what?
47:45
They can entice free agents with dollar bills.
47:49
It's like it's and at the end of the day, and it's important to
47:53
be able to have that and, and be a part of it.
47:56
So I think 100% the landscape is changing as these schools can
48:01
find a way to pay players and make it and it now that it's
48:05
legal and be in a position where they can entice a kid.
48:08
Not necessarily based on track record of development or how
48:12
many guys you've put in the show or or the conference
48:15
championships or the amenities that you have as a student.
48:18
But instead, hey, we can get you, you know, the numbers that
48:22
get thrown around when we go hang out at these schools,
48:25
there's schools that are like these kids are going to be hard
48:27
in life when they have to accept the job for 80 grand a year,
48:31
right? And and that's at the power 4
48:32
level. So think about what football
48:34
players are are getting, But that's a different conversation
48:36
for a complete the other day. So there's a lot of money at the
48:39
top of this sport, right? And kids then have to make a
48:42
decision of I can have 80 grand a year for four years while I'm
48:46
in college. And and 2% of baseball players
48:49
that play in Division One baseball make it to the big
48:51
league. So that's far from a guarantee
48:53
to get the signing bonus that I think I could get and set myself
48:56
up for life. Or should I trust this program
48:59
with my development and, and with the ability to make sure
49:02
I'm in a position to succeed? The new landscape with the house
49:05
settlement, it's going to, it's going to change a lot.
49:09
Rosters decreasing, hard cap, red shirts counting towards that
49:13
cap. Even with the scholarships and
49:16
everything that goes into it, it is going to make the sport more
49:19
cutthroat than it already is. And it's going to put people in
49:22
a position to make really tough decisions.
49:24
Like people see the scholarships and they think good yes finally
49:28
baseball fully funded. I would.
49:30
Actually say lean on the side that I think the it's bad for
49:33
the player quite frankly with the hard caps and and what the
49:36
situations will be. And the take that I have coming
49:40
from this is player development is actually going to end up
49:43
mattering significantly more because if we have hard capped
49:46
rosters, especially in the pitching side, we can talk about
49:50
hitting a little bit separately. Generally the most talented guys
49:53
are going to be just fine and you can play every day.
49:55
You don't need a lot of lineup shifting on the offensive side
49:58
of the ball, but it doesn't matter that if the roster gets
50:03
cut on the pitching side, still, you can't throw more innings
50:08
than you already are expected to throw.
50:11
It's not like we can take a Kate Anderson and say like, hey, man,
50:16
we also need you to throw on Tuesdays.
50:17
Now that that just doesn't work. If the roster shrinks, you can't
50:22
have your starters do more, you can't have your high leverage
50:25
guys really do more. You need the bottom end guys to
50:29
step up at that point. And that means just acquiring
50:33
talent isn't good enough. It's what you can actually do
50:36
with that talent that's going to pay dividends in the long.
50:40
Yeah. I mean, I, I could go so many
50:41
different ways because obviously we, we've had these
50:43
conversations. There's so many important
50:45
pieces. A couple things are really
50:47
important, right? Remember, this is not, and for
50:50
our listeners that are like, why would you decrease roster sizes?
50:54
Makes no sense. This wasn't a baseball position.
50:56
The house settlement was in NCAA athletics wide decision, right?
51:00
And what is negatively and has always negatively affected
51:03
baseball is the fact that football has one O 5.
51:07
There is no female sport that evens it out that also has one O
51:10
5, right? It has to be a one for one.
51:12
So what gets the shaft? Baseball.
51:15
So as you see rosters decreasing, whereas the MLB is
51:18
increasing rest time for pitchers, increasing time
51:22
between workload and and decreasing the workload when
51:24
guys get on the mound and being cautious about pitch counts and
51:27
how that affects guys. The NCAA just said we're going
51:30
backwards, right? We're going to decrease roster
51:32
sizes and we're going to make guys throw more and you're going
51:34
to have to throw your relievers on Tuesday and then have to roll
51:37
them back. And it's concerning obviously in
51:40
in your space, it's concerning for the health of athletes.
51:43
You can't miss on your bottom three guys and I think it's
51:48
going to change roster construction because if I am a
51:52
college coach watching the LSU Arkansas game, they wrote out
51:55
Jacob Myers who was a transfer from Nichols State, was all
51:58
conference at Nichols State and this mutant had 14 innings
52:03
pitched on the year and he was throwing 98 with a banger
52:06
slider. If they can grow them at Nichols
52:08
State, why am I going to take the 18 year old kid that's never
52:12
proven he can get an out at the college level?
52:14
It's how much risk are you willing to take for that talent
52:18
itself? And I think it's going to
52:20
increase a premium A, as I mentioned on experience, but
52:23
also B strike throwing ability. Like I think the ability to come
52:28
in when you're up 10, down 10 on a Tuesday and not have to burn
52:32
three more guys than you have to burn because you have the the
52:36
high ceiling. Freshman, he comes out, he's a
52:38
baby giraffe, moves all over the place.
52:40
Some days he's in the strike zone, some days he's not, but
52:42
he's 96 with a banger slider, he could be great.
52:45
That's what we have now. And if he goes out there, he
52:47
lays an egg. Well, we got 42 guys on the
52:49
roster to be able, OK, go to the next guy, OK, go to the next
52:52
guy. Well, what happens if you have
52:53
three of those guys that are built like that and do that
52:56
well, then who are you going to to stop the bleeding when the
52:58
team starts chipping away? Your guy, right, One of your
53:01
guys that's going to pitch in the weekend.
53:03
So I think there's going to become an increased need for
53:05
strike throwing ability just to be able to say, hey, we're down
53:08
10, go out there and wear it for 70 pitches.
53:11
Like you just have to have a guy that's ready to do that on a
53:14
Tuesday and he could be 84 from the right side with a bad
53:17
fastball. And it's like, we don't care
53:19
because it's like we could lose this game 40 to nothing at this
53:22
point because we're already down 10.
53:24
And then the other thing I think is going to be the two way
53:28
player is going to come back to a certain extent.
53:31
And it doesn't necessarily be have have to be Jack Cagley and
53:34
owns of the world. It could be, hey, this shortstop
53:37
that we have who's a freshman, who we really like.
53:39
And it's our 10th hitter, right? Our our our 10th position
53:43
player. He also was a pretty good
53:45
pitcher in high school. Let's get him reps, Let's make
53:48
sure he get takes care of his arm because if we're in that
53:50
scenario I just outlined where we're up 10 down 10, we can go
53:54
to him and he's never going to be our Saturday guy or we're
53:57
never going to pitch in our rotation.
53:58
He's never going to pitch high leverage.
53:59
Maybe if we're lucky and he develops, he might, but at the
54:02
very least we're using a spot on the roster that's valuable.
54:06
Just every piece of that 35 is going to matter because of how
54:11
much baseball you play in those short extended period of time.
54:14
And there's no 20, whatever it is, 26 active, 40 inactive
54:19
injuries. Because if a guy blows out or it
54:23
blows out, I'm sorry, I don't have to use such a bad injury.
54:25
If guy rolls his ankle doing strength conditioning in the
54:28
morning and he's out for three weeks, he still counts for that
54:31
35. There is no injured reserve in
54:34
college baseball. That's a hard cap.
54:36
If it has happened after December 1st, that guy still
54:40
counts. And what happens if you have a
54:41
bad year where seven guys have nagging injuries, like you're
54:47
now working with a 28 man roster in a sport that's like guys are
54:51
up and down like this is not professional baseball where it's
54:54
steady Eddie and a guy just goes out there and at least you know
54:57
what he's going to give you. There are 18 to 22 year old kids
55:00
and and it's it's just it's going to completely shift roster
55:04
construction to me and come back to the recruiting question.
55:07
I worry that it's going to be the death of high school
55:10
recruiting because if my job is to build the best 56 win team,
55:15
ensure this kid might be talented.
55:18
I I'm taking the kid that I know has gotten outs at the college
55:21
level that has passed his classes, because that's the
55:24
thing we don't talk about in player development.
55:25
It's like, can this kid adjust to college?
55:28
Does he does he fall in love with beer?
55:30
Does he does he fall in love with the dining hall?
55:32
All of us know at least one person that's was a really good
55:34
high school baseball player that got the campus and they were
55:36
completely different guy because college affected them.
55:39
We don't even guarantee that freshman can make it through a
55:41
semester. That kid that's transferred from
55:44
a Division Three school, he's got a degree in hand in some
55:47
cases or he's got two years of academic success in the in his
55:50
in his back pocket. We need that guy to be useful on
55:54
our 35 and that's going to increase the value in those
55:56
guys. Since you gave the two way take
55:58
the name to look out for that I'm going to drop for next
56:02
baseball season is incoming freshman at Florida State.
56:06
Charlie Buckles, first baseman, outfielder, left-handed pitcher.
56:11
Big fan of what that kids going to do.
56:13
I mean, fingers crossed. I would love to see him get
56:15
drafted. I don't know where he ranks on
56:19
that whole thing, but he he to me, I'm not going to say he's
56:23
Jack Haglion like that. He's different.
56:26
But when you start to when you start to think about the
56:28
prototype that is needed in college baseball to be most
56:32
successful in this next stage with smaller rosters, guys who
56:36
can do multiple things, that's a guy that I would like to keep an
56:39
eye on. So that's going to be my my
56:41
early drop for a freshman to watch for for next season.
56:46
I love that I'll jot him down so that when we do our ACC
56:49
previews, he's he's going to be a guy I'll I'll check in through
56:52
the fall and and make sure I have on my radar before the
56:54
season starts next year. I have to show I know something
56:57
about the game besides just what's going on at the elbow.
57:00
Hey, we all, we all have our things that we're really good at
57:03
and you just happen to be really, really good at that
57:05
elbow thing. So it's a super important piece
57:08
of you're a big reason why we get to enjoy what we're seeing
57:11
in Omaha in the College World Series, because these guys like
57:14
Chase Shores who throw 101 with banger sliders are actually
57:16
pitching. And it's awesome to say like we
57:18
want to see those guys pitching. We don't want to see them
57:20
rehabbing and and doing too much work behind the scenes.
57:23
Well, I appreciate that and I appreciate the love and of
57:26
course I appreciate your time tremendously.
57:29
This has been an awesome conversation.
57:31
I want to put on like my PTI gear and start debating things
57:35
and going back and forth. But hey, I guess, I guess I
57:39
pigeon holed myself with trying to have a super educational
57:42
podcast rather than just talking heads arguing back and forth.
57:46
And I crave the day that I can do that.
57:49
Maybe one of these days I can add something else to the
57:52
platform right where I just talk shop for an hour each day.
57:55
But thanks a ton, Trevor. This has been tremendous.
57:58
Of course, it was awesome. Time flies when you when you
58:00
have these conversations and, and it's always nice to shine a
58:03
light maybe on the conversations that we've had.
58:06
If I dropped our conversation with Matt Hobbs in the 1st 15
58:09
minutes and you made it to this point and didn't just exit out
58:13
of this podcast and then go listen to that.
58:15
Highly recommend that because I listen to our stuff, because I
58:17
do all, all of our editing and our post production.
58:20
So I listen to our stuff a lot. And more times than not, I kind
58:23
of drown out the interview by the time it's produced and
58:26
published and I don't really come back to it.
58:28
That's one that no matter how many times I listen to it, it's
58:31
like, God, that's good. Like I'm like, that's a nugget.
58:34
He's good. And you can see why I was so
58:36
successful. But yeah, I can't thank you
58:38
enough for for having me on and and obviously I would love to to
58:42
make it more common and and obviously do these
58:44
conversations, especially as we get out and see some more
58:47
facilities and have some more conversations and get a lay of
58:49
the land a little bit better each and every time we we get
58:52
out and meet new people of. Course man, I'm so excited to
58:55
see the tour that you guys are about to go on here.
58:58
Get a look into more facilities. I don't know, are you allowed to
59:02
name drop some of the ones that you guys have coming down the
59:05
line or is that all under all under the chest?
59:08
We'll name drop it. I'll worry about the back end
59:11
side of things that people are are concerned about that.
59:14
But confirmed Richmond and Charlotte in August basically
59:18
confirmed at least interest Georgia, West Virginia, UNC
59:23
Coastal. As I mentioned a little bit
59:24
earlier, we have some connections with the program.
59:27
That's one that they just happen to still be playing baseball on
59:30
on June 19th, which is awesome for them and it's going to make
59:33
our value in our conversation so much better.
59:35
But it's a local program that we we want to get to.
59:38
We're supposed to circle back to Penn State this year and what
59:41
coach Gambino's building up there.
59:42
They just had a facility upgrade since the last time we were up
59:46
there. So we're going to head up there
59:47
and, and be able to do a deep dive on them.
59:50
And then I mean, there's a ton we we can keep going.
59:52
We're super excited. I know UNLV, who you work
59:55
directly with, they're interested, but they need to get
59:57
their facilities finalized in the fall.
59:59
So looks like Vegas and. In sometime in the fall is going
1:00:02
to be a trip which the wife might not be as happy, but I'm
1:00:05
sure Dan and I'll have some fun and, and heading out West for,
1:00:08
for that. So, and, and again, the schools
1:00:10
we've been to, we look at like we're going to be able to get
1:00:13
back to, to some of those spots, including Arkansas, Arizona and
1:00:16
some of the schools that I mentioned that we've been to
1:00:18
before. Awesome.
1:00:20
Well, I'm looking forward to all those going to be glued to
1:00:24
YouTube here pretty soon and I guess 30 minute tour after 30
1:00:29
minute tour, I'm going to feel like a college kid all over
1:00:32
again. I'm stoked for it.
1:00:34
Yeah, well, it's a lot of fun to do those deep dives and, and
1:00:37
trust me, when you're when you're there, it's it's, it's
1:00:39
even better. So we'll have to get you out to
1:00:41
one of these schools, especially the ones that you work with and
1:00:44
and be able to, to get you behind the scenes look and have
1:00:46
some of those conversations. That would be a ton of fun.
1:00:49
I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, I guess anything I can do
1:00:52
to hitch my wagon to the backside ground balls group, I'm
1:00:56
going to do my best to do that. But Trevor, once again, this is
1:01:00
this has been quite a Thursday. To all the listeners out there,
1:01:04
thanks for laying back with us.