Latest / The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast / Episode 280. Thermal Energy Storage with Henrik Andersen of Fenagy

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Episode 280. Thermal Energy Storage with Henrik Andersen of Fenagy · The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast

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  Speaker: Hey, hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Refrigeration Mentor Podcast. Super happy that you're here. This next guest, his name is Henrik Andersson. He is from Fenegay. They are a CO2 equipment manufacturer. And we dive into thermal storage, something that I want to learn more and more about.
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  These are large systems, way bigger than I've ever worked on more and, on more and, you know. Large commercial supermarkets, small industrial, and we're talking about big units here. We're talking megawatts, which is pretty cool, but really throughout this episode we're really diving into thermal storage and thermal energy.
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  I'm just trying to brush up my knowledge and hopefully you take one or two things away from this episode. Now let's get a conversation going.
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  Trevor: So we're going to dive into some thermal energy storage. The first time I seen your organization was a Chilventa 2022, you had a massive, I think it was a CO2 heat pump, or it was, it was a big system.
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  Trevor: So we're going to dive into some thermal energy storage. The first time I seen your organization was a Chilventa 2022, you had a massive, I think it was a CO2 heat pump, or it was, it was a big system.
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  I think it was one of the biggest ones there that I've seen on the floor and it was all insulated up and you had big, I think it was bits of compressors on it, that one. You had big heat exchangers and big vessels on it. And then I seen back in past October. Didn't get a chance to go through your booth too much, but I, I seen it there again.
• 0:02
  I think it was one of the biggest ones there that I've seen on the floor and it was all insulated up and you had big, I think it was bits of compressors on it, that one. You had big heat exchangers and big vessels on it. And then I seen back in past October. Didn't get a chance to go through your booth too much, but I, I seen it there again. Yeah. Henrik: So we work a lot with Bitsur on the eight cylinder compressors they have. So we yeah we do make a lot of large CO2 heat pumps. That's, that's basically what we're doing and mainly air to water. And we are also now, I mean, looking into hydrocarbons ICB10 and propane water to water heat pumps.
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  But we're always working in the megawatt scale. So huge, huge projects.
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  Trevor: So what is your role right now?
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  I know you're in R& D side of Fenagy but what is some of your roles? I'm sure it evolved over last year or two while you've been there. What are some of the things that you do?
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  Henrik: And today I'm, I'm a hundred percent R& D. I actually started in sales and then when I, when I started, we were only 35 employees.
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  And then today we are almost a hundred. So there is and then, and I started two two and a half years ago. So it's, we are growing really, really fast. And so when I started, they needed help in sales tailoring our projects or our products to our customers project. And then with my background, with a lot of theoretical knowledge and so on, it made more sense that I was more to the technical part.
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  And then today we are almost a hundred. So there is and then, and I started two two and a half years ago. So it's, we are growing really, really fast. And so when I started, they needed help in sales tailoring our projects or our products to our customers project. And then with my background, with a lot of theoretical knowledge and so on, it made more sense that I was more to the technical part.
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  And I also didn't like sales that much, to be honest. That was my strength, if you know what I mean. So then I started in engineering, drawing PNIDs and selecting components, et cetera, et cetera. And then one and a half years ago, I started in R& D. So my, what I'm doing, I'm doing a lot everything that is special, I would say not things that we haven't done before.
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  So I analyze new components. I I work with our controls department. We have our own PLC controller. So I write control descriptions. I join our refrigeration technicians and PLC programmers when we start up systems. I also work with our mathematical modeling. With calculation software and so on.
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  So I analyze new components. I I work with our controls department. We have our own PLC controller. So I write control descriptions. I join our refrigeration technicians and PLC programmers when we start up systems. I also work with our mathematical modeling. With calculation software and so on.
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  And then I also do some product development we have a product range coming now called a smart heat pump together with SCM, which I have been working a lot on. So a lot of testing on that part as well.
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  Trevor: A
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  Henrik: lot of Trevor: hats.
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  Henrik: Yeah, it's a lot of hats and we have a lot of R& D projects going on in parallel.
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  So yeah there's a lot to do, but that's also the the good thing. And I'm really happy that there are several things going on in parallel because then I can jump A bit forth and back between the different yeah, projects.
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  Trevor: So how does that how do you feel about that? Like you're working on something coming up with a design working with a team Then you see it out running in the field So you go to the actual startups and some of these jobs and stuff and look at the equipment and see how it's running How is how has that been because i'm sure when you first started you weren't out in the field seeing it Your background is not let's say a service engineer or technician, but you work with them very closely, especially on the startup.
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  Trevor: So how does that how do you feel about that? Like you're working on something coming up with a design working with a team Then you see it out running in the field So you go to the actual startups and some of these jobs and stuff and look at the equipment and see how it's running How is how has that been because i'm sure when you first started you weren't out in the field seeing it Your background is not let's say a service engineer or technician, but you work with them very closely, especially on the startup.
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  What are, what, how does that feel when you see it's up and running and man, it's working great and everything's going as according to plan because they're always, it doesn't always, right. But you guys will always fix the problem. But how has that transition getting out and starting a project, seeing it all the way through and then actually seeing it running with the technicians in the field or the team in the field.
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  Henrik: Yeah, that's that's really, really cool. I must say, of course, there is always some bugs that you have to fix but you always find a solution to that. But when, when it's up and running it's super cool seeing how the theory matches up. With the reality and so on. So that is, that's, I would say, is in many ways, the best part of the job to actually see what you have created.
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  And I would say that that's one of the very good things about working for a company supplying a. Product because you see very clearly what you create and when we are a small company as we are, you are also connected through the whole value chain. So we are part of every step in on that wave to that goal of having a product working well.
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  And I would say that that's one of the very good things about working for a company supplying a. Product because you see very clearly what you create and when we are a small company as we are, you are also connected through the whole value chain. So we are part of every step in on that wave to that goal of having a product working well.
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  So you really have to. You really have to if you have some difficulties, you really have to fix those difficulties because yeah, of course we cannot have anything that doesn't work as it should be, but when, when it works really well, then it's also a very, a good feeling, know.
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  Trevor: Yeah, but that's working with the technicians too, because you don't, you know, you don't have to have all that experience, you know, that's what the field service guys are for out there.
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  And then you ask them questions and you guys work together. And that's the biggest things when I'm out in the field, doing startups with manufacturers and contractors. There's, you know, if you work together and you collaborate a bit more, it makes it easier for the job because. Mistakes do happen, issues come up, things that you don't recognize that, that all of a sudden start happening.
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  And then you ask them questions and you guys work together. And that's the biggest things when I'm out in the field, doing startups with manufacturers and contractors. There's, you know, if you work together and you collaborate a bit more, it makes it easier for the job because. Mistakes do happen, issues come up, things that you don't recognize that, that all of a sudden start happening.
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  And then as long as you can work together and sort out, and usually in refrigeration, you can sort out most problems as long as it was planned, designed, and collaborated together with whoever you're working with, which is pretty cool.
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  Let's dive into some thermal storage, thermal energy storage. I think this is a really cool topic, something that is, I've been hearing about for a long time years and years.
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  And I've been seeing different projects over the last 10 years in thermal storage from big massive ones to little ones. But let's start with the basics of thermal energy storage. What, what is that?
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  Henrik: So thermal energy storage is, uh, it's basically like a thermal battery. So you you store thermal energy.
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  So that it can be used for later, it could either be a hot heat or it could be cold energy, depending on what you need or what your process is. So that's kind of the basic principle of it.
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  Trevor: The biggest thing too, from what I, you know, from what I've seen and learned is that. We use thermal energy and thermal storage to well, customers do like end users to reduce peak demand costs.
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  Trevor: The biggest thing too, from what I, you know, from what I've seen and learned is that. We use thermal energy and thermal storage to well, customers do like end users to reduce peak demand costs.
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  So it's kind of like a savings, but I think in the future, it's not only going to be about the saving costs. I think there's going to be bigger, bigger plays for the planet. With with thermal energy storage, because right now we're using it for peak demand, what I, what I hear, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, it's for peak energy storage.
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  So in the middle of the day, in most cities, the, the energy is the most, the highest. How do we not have to use electricity during those peak hours and offset it? Do you want to elaborate on that or add anything to that? Yes, exactly, because they're
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  Henrik: so, Is it often comes back to that? There is a mismatch between the available energy and the energy demand.
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  So during, if you take a day, for instance electricity prices are often the highest in the morning and then in the afternoon evening, because then, then everyone wants to use that electricity. So by using thermal energy storage, you could. You could produce heat during during a midday or during the night when when the electrical prices are low and also there is more electricity available and then.
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  So during, if you take a day, for instance electricity prices are often the highest in the morning and then in the afternoon evening, because then, then everyone wants to use that electricity. So by using thermal energy storage, you could. You could produce heat during during a midday or during the night when when the electrical prices are low and also there is more electricity available and then.
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  You can charge your thermal you can recharge, you can charge your thermal energy storing during those hours. And then you can retrieve that energy during the evening and in the morning. So we have also this term called peak shaving. So you can also have, if you look into more industrial applications, for instance you can have hours during the day where you have a very high energy demand.
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  And by having a thermal energy, some thermal energy storage, you can collect the heat from that thermal energy storage during that hour. And then you can cut the initial cost of your, of your of your refrigeration system for instance, because you don't need to size it as big as you would have to if you didn't have the the thermal energy storage.
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  And by having a thermal energy, some thermal energy storage, you can collect the heat from that thermal energy storage during that hour. And then you can cut the initial cost of your, of your of your refrigeration system for instance, because you don't need to size it as big as you would have to if you didn't have the the thermal energy storage.
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  Trevor: Okay. Yeah. No, not that totally makes sense. So what type of thermal energy storage are there? I know there's like ice bank systems and chilled water systems and even phase change materials, but what are all the different ones that you can use for cooling and heating?
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  Henrik: Yeah.
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  Trevor: So
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  Henrik: I would say there are. It could be more, but I would say in general, there's three different thermal energy storage.
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  And then the first one is the chemical energy storage, which is basically that you have some kind of chemical reaction all chemical reactions, either absorb or release heat. So you could utilize some kind of chemical reaction to, to store the heat or the cold energy that that you need. And then you have the what is called a latent heat storage, which is when you utilize the a phase change material as you, as you mentioned where you basically you utilize the the phase change of for instance, water going from a solid to a liquid or the other way around which require a lot of energy to store your energy and the last and probably the most simple one is is the sensible heat storage, which is, which is basically that you.
• 0:11
  And then the first one is the chemical energy storage, which is basically that you have some kind of chemical reaction all chemical reactions, either absorb or release heat. So you could utilize some kind of chemical reaction to, to store the heat or the cold energy that that you need. And then you have the what is called a latent heat storage, which is when you utilize the a phase change material as you, as you mentioned where you basically you utilize the the phase change of for instance, water going from a solid to a liquid or the other way around which require a lot of energy to store your energy and the last and probably the most simple one is is the sensible heat storage, which is, which is basically that you.
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  For instance, an example is that you heat up water and then you can use that hot water for later. So then you have like a temperature difference in your storage material. That's why it's called sensible.
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  Trevor: Okay. So, so the three ones was the chemical, latent and sensible basically. Yes, yes, exactly. Okay.
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  And so, yeah, let's break it down a little bit because what would and I know the, a lot about the sensible, the latent one, but the chemical one. I, I haven't seen many out there. So do you want to break down maybe each, each three, like in an application where you would see sensible, latent and chemical and how this would apply to say refrigeration professionals from around the world and where would they might see it because I think most of it for me is in cold store that I see a cold storage, industrial.
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  And so, yeah, let's break it down a little bit because what would and I know the, a lot about the sensible, the latent one, but the chemical one. I, I haven't seen many out there. So do you want to break down maybe each, each three, like in an application where you would see sensible, latent and chemical and how this would apply to say refrigeration professionals from around the world and where would they might see it because I think most of it for me is in cold store that I see a cold storage, industrial.
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  You don't really at this point, or I don't anyway, see it in small like residential or like small commercial shops, but not saying that it doesn't, I just, like heat pumps and stuff, I guess you would, you could consider those being some sort of thermal storage because you heat the ground up or whatever, not, but.
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  Cool. Yes.
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  Henrik: So we can take the the chemical energy storage first, for instance. I'm not a chemist myself, so I'm not an expert in this field, but the the, the benefit of the chemical energy storage is that you don't have, you normally don't have any heat losses during your storage because this, the energy itself is not you don't.
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  You don't have any what do you call it, a heat exchange with your surrounding area for instance. It's just, it's, it's the heat is potential is in the molecules for your chemical reaction. And I actually don't have a very good example of when you will use the chemical energy storage, but I know that it's the I would say it's the less common one of the three that I mentioned.
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  You don't have any what do you call it, a heat exchange with your surrounding area for instance. It's just, it's, it's the heat is potential is in the molecules for your chemical reaction. And I actually don't have a very good example of when you will use the chemical energy storage, but I know that it's the I would say it's the less common one of the three that I mentioned.
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  If we go for instance, to the sensible heat storage that is maybe the most common one because it's the most simplest one. And it's also works really, really well as long as you have a it's, it's relatively cheap. Of course, it's only a vessel that you can fill up with water. For instance, if If that's your medium of choice, and then as long as you have a a good insulation insulated tank and a good stratification, it can also be a very, very efficient.
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  Stratification means that you have a good layer between your cold part and your hot part of water in the tank. So we don't mix mix the layers inside the vessel. The sensible heat storage we can even see in a resident for, for residential air to water heat pumps, for instance. So a good thing about having some storage is that you can prevent the heat pump from, from starting and stopping too much.
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  Stratification means that you have a good layer between your cold part and your hot part of water in the tank. So we don't mix mix the layers inside the vessel. The sensible heat storage we can even see in a resident for, for residential air to water heat pumps, for instance. So a good thing about having some storage is that you can prevent the heat pump from, from starting and stopping too much.
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  So that's your compressor is having a better life to put it that way. And then you can also, for instance, have an residential hair to water heat pump producing both domestic hot water, but also space heating, and then it can produce two different water temperatures with the same heat pump.
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  So we can work in between those and then for the depending on the. The temperature you want to store of water is very simple, of course, it's it's really, really available and very, very cheap. But if you need to store some cooling, for instance, then you could use glycol water if it's very, very cold sub zero degrees, or you could, if you have a very high temperature process, you could use something like concrete, for instance, heating the concrete, or you can use molten salts or yeah Yeah, there's are many examples on this.
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  So we can work in between those and then for the depending on the. The temperature you want to store of water is very simple, of course, it's it's really, really available and very, very cheap. But if you need to store some cooling, for instance, then you could use glycol water if it's very, very cold sub zero degrees, or you could, if you have a very high temperature process, you could use something like concrete, for instance, heating the concrete, or you can use molten salts or yeah Yeah, there's are many examples on this.
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  We can also see our customers in Senegi. We have a lot of customers in a district heating. They have often very, very, very big tanks where they store up store the the hot water for hours where the electricity is, is very, very expensive. So it's, it's actually, you can see it a lot of places that when you drive around in Denmark, you can see these big tanks because Denmark is very flat country.
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  So they, yeah, are very, very easy to spot in
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  Trevor: all the cities. So is there any, cause I know I've, I've heard of this on new systems, like you could probably figure out, you'll dig up a hole under the, under the building and potentially put it under there. But on retrofit, it's not as not as easy, but it still can be done.
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  What are you seeing more of? Are you seeing more of the sensible storage or the latent storage with your customers? We
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  Henrik: definitely see the sensible one the most we don't, I, we don't have a project with the latent, latent one and but the, the great benefit of having the late heat storage is, is that you can store a lot of energy, it's, it's very energy dense, right?
• 0:16
  Henrik: definitely see the sensible one the most we don't, I, we don't have a project with the latent, latent one and but the, the great benefit of having the late heat storage is, is that you can store a lot of energy, it's, it's very energy dense, right?
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  Because you utilize the phase change and not just increasing the temperature of water, for instance. So freezing water or, or melting water requires a lot of energy and this type of solution would make sense in a place where you have very, very limited in space, for instance.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: I want to take a minute to talk about what refrigeration mentor training is all about. We are all about helping contractors increase profit. We help end users reduce bottom line costs and really helping technicians make more money. And our mission is to empower those contractors and technicians by equipping them with the, really the skills that they need and the knowledge that they need for success.
• 0:17
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• 0:17
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• 0:17
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• 0:18
  So if you're a service manager, business owner or technician, reach out, head to refrigerationmentor. com or check out in the show notes, there's a book a call link and it doesn't matter where you're at in the world, we can help develop a program that's going to help you and your business be more profitable in the commercial refrigeration and aid vac industry.
• 0:18
  Now let's get to the conversation goal.
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  Trevor: So, when did you start learning about thermal energy storage, and how, how does, how does this affect all of us in refrigeration, and how is it going, do you believe it's going to affect us going forward in the future? Because I think this is Energy prices aren't going to come down like it's not like all of a sudden all prices are cut in half for energy.
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  We know it's going to consistently go up. How do you see this affecting and how we do refrigeration going forward in the future?
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  Henrik: I would say it's it's getting more and more important. From, let's say we get more and more renewable energy, for instance wind and solar power and so on.
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  And then sometimes the sun is not always shining or there is no wind. So then you don't have any electricity available. Of course there is always some, but then there will be a lot of the electricity prices will be much higher than for other periods. So it will become And more and more important, I would say, and I think when we eventually get there where all of the energy is renewable then the society has to adapt to this in some way.
• 0:19
  And then sometimes the sun is not always shining or there is no wind. So then you don't have any electricity available. Of course there is always some, but then there will be a lot of the electricity prices will be much higher than for other periods. So it will become And more and more important, I would say, and I think when we eventually get there where all of the energy is renewable then the society has to adapt to this in some way.
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  And for district heating, for instance, we know that 50 percent more or less of all the energy that a house is using is related to heating. And heat is a very, very easy for a sensible heat storage, for instance, is a very, very easy thing to do and storing a heat is very, very easy. So instead of, for instance, storing electricity in a huge battery, that's a lot more expensive.
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  So looking into. Easy solution like sensible heat storage, I think will be more and more important in the future.
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  Trevor: Yeah, I do too. I like what you said there. We're going to have to learn how to adapt because it is changing. Like we have here where I'm at in Ontario and Canada, we have natural gas. So you turn on the heat and you've got this flame and it's hot.
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  Trevor: Yeah, I do too. I like what you said there. We're going to have to learn how to adapt because it is changing. Like we have here where I'm at in Ontario and Canada, we have natural gas. So you turn on the heat and you've got this flame and it's hot.
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  So we're blowing high temperature through the house. So you can actually feel the temperature change where now when you get into heat pumps and different technologies, it's still heating, but it's not that instant heat, you know what I mean? You're not getting that heat up that high. And so some people eat like when they get a heat pump versus their old central air or whatever.
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  Well, it's not heating up the house. Well, it's actually supposed to keep it at a constant temperature at all time. You shouldn't feel, you know, a hundred Fahrenheit or whatever, a hundred and some Fahrenheit coming out of the vent. You know what I mean? It's supposed to be a constant air. So that is like the adaptability.
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  Like you said I think that's where like heat pump for an example, or there's a hindrance in lots of different places because it's, it's the change, right, and lots of people don't like change from what it was.
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  Henrik: Oh, that's true. That's a very great challenge we, we meet that they, someone want to, to replace a gas boiler with a heat pump and expect it to run in the same way.
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  And that's part of the, the way that they have to adapt because that's not how it works. We need to find some other ways to, to heat our homes and then it could not be the same way as with a gas furnace. For instance,
• 0:21
  And that's part of the, the way that they have to adapt because that's not how it works. We need to find some other ways to, to heat our homes and then it could not be the same way as with a gas furnace. For instance,
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  Trevor: what are some of the challenge you've seen, because that's a good point to bring up with, with some of your, some of your customers going from that, because you, you work in big.
• 0:21
  Like big industrial, like we're talking megawatts. So these are big systems and your customers, I'm assuming we're, we're used to big boilers and big systems like that, or steam how has the transition with some of your customers? Because it is changed. And, and so hopefully, cause you've been there for a couple of years.
• 0:21
  Hopefully you can. And I'm sure over the years, it'll get more and more, but how has that transition been? Have they been getting used to it? And have they been seeing the value for sure in their pocketbook? They've been seeing the value as well as like decarbonization. They've been seeing that value because fossil fuels, we know is.
• 0:21
  It's a lot harder on the planet versus say heat pump and the COP is different, things like that. But what, what is what are your thoughts on some of your customers who had done the transition? I think, yeah,
• 0:22
  It's a lot harder on the planet versus say heat pump and the COP is different, things like that. But what, what is what are your thoughts on some of your customers who had done the transition? I think, yeah,
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  Henrik: for many of our customers, it's also the politicians have to kind of motivate for the transition because the utility companies, for instance, they are looking at.
• 0:22
  How much how much do they spend? How much do they save? And so on. It's always motivated by money, of course. So as long as the politics are motivating for the transition, they will always it will always come. And when the, when it comes there is definitely a challenge to, to, to learn them how a heat pump works compared to a gas furnace, for instance, or a gas motor or a wood chip burner or a biogas whatever they are burning.
• 0:22
  So but they are, what they are very, very happy about is that when they get the heat pump, it's it's basically just to put a push a button, the compressor starts and then you have heat for instance, with a A wood chip burner. There's a lot of more you have to move your wood chips around and you had, there's a lot of more of maintenance and so on.
• 0:23
  So but they are, what they are very, very happy about is that when they get the heat pump, it's it's basically just to put a push a button, the compressor starts and then you have heat for instance, with a A wood chip burner. There's a lot of more you have to move your wood chips around and you had, there's a lot of more of maintenance and so on.
• 0:23
  While the machine room for the heat pumps is always clean. And it's, of course it's noisy, but you don't really have to be in there because it does the work by itself compared to the to the to their alternatives. The the challenge relies often within the temperatures, of course, CO2 is challenging and the way that it needs a relatively cold return to have a good COP.
• 0:23
  That is very challenging for someone. Luckily in Denmark, they have always been pushing for having a, a low return, which is a very beneficial for us when, when trying to sell us a CO2 heat pump. But we often see that they also, for instance buy a a electrical boiler, for instance together with a heat pump.
• 0:23
  So they have two options because another challenge with the heat pump could be that you, you don't. You cannot always reach the outlet temperature that you want, maybe you require 90, 95 degrees. And sometimes the heat pump is limited to 80. Then you can also use your electrical boiler to boost the temperature the, the last degrees you need.
• 0:24
  So they have two options because another challenge with the heat pump could be that you, you don't. You cannot always reach the outlet temperature that you want, maybe you require 90, 95 degrees. And sometimes the heat pump is limited to 80. Then you can also use your electrical boiler to boost the temperature the, the last degrees you need.
• 0:24
  So they are always looking into having several options. So someone are maybe keeping a gas motor together with a heat pump and sometimes the gas is cheaper than the electricity and then they will use the, the gas. That's how it is.
• 0:24
  Trevor: So what would, so what the people, cause I've had lots of people, I have lots of people mentioned it.
• 0:24
  Well, if I got a heat pump and now I got to use the gas or I got to use an electrical device to do the auxiliary to supplement, how does that help? And I know you said COP earlier. Do you want to explain the, Why it's beneficial to go to heat pump with an auxiliary heat source like a, say, an electrical burner versus just having a straight up electrical heater element heating up the the source.
• 0:25
  Well, if I got a heat pump and now I got to use the gas or I got to use an electrical device to do the auxiliary to supplement, how does that help? And I know you said COP earlier. Do you want to explain the, Why it's beneficial to go to heat pump with an auxiliary heat source like a, say, an electrical burner versus just having a straight up electrical heater element heating up the the source. Henrik: Yeah, the benefit is, of course, related to the COP. You have a, a, the heat pump that you, uh, That you get more heat out than they put into your system, because we, for an air to water heat pump, for instance, you the most of the energy actually comes from the surrounding air. So in the case of having if you have both and the electrical and, and the price.
• 0:25
  And, and you have to pay for your electricity and you're able to reach the temperature that you need with a heat pump, then, then the heat pump will be a better choice. But sometimes you see, for instance, negative that you get money to use electricity, then your electrical boiler is very nice to, to use, of course.
• 0:25
  But the COP is, is, is kind of a changing factor.
• 0:25
  Trevor: Yeah, yeah, because for like, like, let's say electrical element, one kilowatt in is one kilowatt out where some heat pumps you get one kilowatt in of electricity, you get two or three or four out and it all depends on the design and the. The temperatures outside and you're looking for insight.
• 0:26
  Trevor: Yeah, yeah, because for like, like, let's say electrical element, one kilowatt in is one kilowatt out where some heat pumps you get one kilowatt in of electricity, you get two or three or four out and it all depends on the design and the. The temperatures outside and you're looking for insight.
• 0:26
  So there's a lot of, there's a whole calculations. I've seen lots of different stuff, but you're just, you're getting more than one to one with a heat pump. Exactly. Awesome. So there's lots to learn. So what else have you learned over the last few years on thermal energy storage and why, and why is it important for you to continue to grow and learn about these technologies and really help your, your company in the R& D department to come up with new solutions?
• 0:26
  Henrik: We we often see that and, um, for instance, in the, what do you call it? The grid, the company running the electrical grid, Denmark, for instance, they often, they have something called balancing of the electrical grid. So they see that if there is if there is a lot of electricity available, they need someone to use the energy actually, because you want to balance the grids.
• 0:26
  And we can, we see that there is now a tendency that everyone wants to move over to this grid balancing because what, actually what you can do is that you in this system, you can say if you would like to switch off my heat pump, then you have to pay me X amount of money. And then if the grid company sees now we have.
• 0:27
  And we can, we see that there is now a tendency that everyone wants to move over to this grid balancing because what, actually what you can do is that you in this system, you can say if you would like to switch off my heat pump, then you have to pay me X amount of money. And then if the grid company sees now we have.
• 0:27
  Now, now we are, it's, we are spending, we are using more electricity than we have available. They need someone to switch off their heat pump or whatever system they have. And if, if someone, if they come and say, yeah, we need you to shut off your heat pump then of course you have to switch off your heat pump.
• 0:27
  But if you don't have enough heat for your. District heating comp customers, then of course they won't be happy. So we see a very big tendency in that our customers are buying bigger and bigger heat pumps and buying bigger and bigger storage tanks so they can play more and more within this grid balancing in yeah, in Denmark.
• 0:27
  And I think actually Denmark is pretty far ahead of other countries. When you look into UK, for instance we see That the electrical price is fixed for instance. So it doesn't really matter what you do. You always pay the same amount of money for the electricity. So. So then it doesn't make sense to do it in this way.
• 0:28
  And I think actually Denmark is pretty far ahead of other countries. When you look into UK, for instance we see That the electrical price is fixed for instance. So it doesn't really matter what you do. You always pay the same amount of money for the electricity. So. So then it doesn't make sense to do it in this way.
• 0:28
  So that is a very interesting part to look into. And we get a lot of inquiries about this.
• 0:28
  Trevor: So there's a lot, there's a lot to it. It's not just you go ahead and say, I want this. It's like, you got to plan, look at these are big. Big systems and thermal storage. I know for sure it's going to continue, continue to grow.
• 0:28
  I see it's here in North America, lots of different, depending on where you're at. If you're in Canada, you just open the doors in the wintertime and then there's your cooling, you know? Yeah, exactly. It's like that in Norway too. Oh, I love it. So, so what's next for you? So you're doing R& D right now, you're, you're helping get systems out in the field.
• 0:28
  Any final thoughts for, for people listening and engineers who want to get into refrigeration or anyone who, you know, want to maybe transition into a, a manufacturer like yourself?
• 0:29
  Any final thoughts for, for people listening and engineers who want to get into refrigeration or anyone who, you know, want to maybe transition into a, a manufacturer like yourself?
• 0:29
  Henrik: What we see is that, uh, it's very easy for me to talk about heat pumps because that what that's when we talk about refrigeration, I always tend to talk about heat pumps because that's what I'm working with.
• 0:29
  And we see that we have done, we have, we see that there's a lot of. Since we had talked about gas boilers earlier, you see that there is, I don't know, 60 or 80 million gas boilers that that has to be changed in Europe over the next coming years. So there's a big, big market. And so there is space for everyone who wants to be a part of that and that green transition, the the manufacturers or producers of these systems There's, there's basically not enough manufacturers of heat pumps to cover that demand.
• 0:29
  So everyone that wants to join can join there is also a very great demand for, for people that would like to work with the heat pumps because because of this great market that we have in front of us. So we need knowledge and people that are motivated to, to work within this field. So I would strongly encourage people to, to try if they to, if they are interested, because it's yeah, it's very, very very cool.
• 0:30
  So everyone that wants to join can join there is also a very great demand for, for people that would like to work with the heat pumps because because of this great market that we have in front of us. So we need knowledge and people that are motivated to, to work within this field. So I would strongly encourage people to, to try if they to, if they are interested, because it's yeah, it's very, very very cool.
• 0:30
  Trevor: It is cool. I liked the, the, the pun there. It's cool. Because heat pump is refrigeration, you know, but we say heat pump, but it's, it's still refrigerants in there. There, and you say 16 to 18 million or. How many did you? 60,
• 0:30
  Henrik: 60, 60 to 80 million. I think that was the last I heard. So there's a lot.
• 0:30
  Trevor: Yeah, there, that is a, that is a lot.
• 0:30
  But I think a lot of it comes down to, and we kind of said it's going to come down to politics. It's going to come down to the adaptability to change, the thought of change because this is a, this is a big step forward. It's, it's like really anything a hundred years ago, you know, we were getting fires into the house or 200 years ago.
• 0:30
  And then we moved into more of a, a grid source of natural gas or oil burners or whatever. And then we're. It's the progress of what's going on for the planet and 60 to a million 60 to 80 million. He bought us a lot of work. Refrigeration, super fun. He pumps is refrigeration. Just remember that it's still refrigeration.
• 0:31
  And then we moved into more of a, a grid source of natural gas or oil burners or whatever. And then we're. It's the progress of what's going on for the planet and 60 to a million 60 to 80 million. He bought us a lot of work. Refrigeration, super fun. He pumps is refrigeration. Just remember that it's still refrigeration.
• 0:31
  Everyone out there. I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing some of your knowledge and wisdom on thermal energy stores. Super cool what you're doing. I'm excited to see your growth cause you're new to the industry as well. So over the next few years, you're going to learn so much and be part of the change.
• 0:31
  So I appreciate that. Thanks for having me, Terv. It was fun. Awesome.
• 0:31
  So everyone, this is, this is something to take a a minute just to think of what you're doing right now. So if you're a technician in the field and you're looking to grow your, your knowledge in the heat pump space, if you're in refrigeration now, this is an opportunity.
• 0:31
  Henrik works with a manufacturer, but this is the process. I've worked for a manufacturer before too. So it's look at what your journey is right now and where you want to go, because there's a lot of opportunity for natural refrigerants. There's a lot of opportunity in our industry, working either at a contractor, at a manufacturer, at a design firm, we do all this and talk about all this stuff all the time.
• 0:32
  Henrik works with a manufacturer, but this is the process. I've worked for a manufacturer before too. So it's look at what your journey is right now and where you want to go, because there's a lot of opportunity for natural refrigerants. There's a lot of opportunity in our industry, working either at a contractor, at a manufacturer, at a design firm, we do all this and talk about all this stuff all the time.
• 0:32
  Really appreciate all of you listening today and look forward to seeing you at the next refrigeration mentor podcast.
• 0:33
  Really appreciate all of you listening today and look forward to seeing you at the next refrigeration mentor podcast.