Latest / Radically Genuine / 219. They Told Her She Was Dangerous. Her Patients Say She Saved Their Lives

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219. They Told Her She Was Dangerous. Her Patients Say She Saved Their Lives · Radically Genuine

• 00:00:02:16 - 00:00:27:17 Speaker 1 Welcome to the radically genuine podcast I'm Doctor Roger McFillin. Modern psychiatry is a failed experiment. 40 plus years of the chemical imbalance. Marketing lies. The largest antidepressant trials ever conducted show placebos winning at six months. Long term outcome studies reveal that patients on psychiatric drugs have more episodes, more hospitalizations, more disability and die earlier than those who come off them. 00:00:27:19 - 00:00:59:08 Speaker 1 This isn't fringe science. This is the National Institute of Mental Health's own research, and the profession largely ignores it. It's really dark the deeper you get into it. And today's guests spent years inside that system. Doctor Aruna Nami is board certified in adult psychiatry, geriatric psychiatry and integrative and holistic medicine. She trained at NiMH hands, the National Institute of Mental Health and Neuroscience in Bangalore, one of the more prestigious psychiatric institutions in the world. 00:00:59:08 - 00:01:28:17 Speaker 1 She completed a residency in geriatric fellowship here in the US. She's trained in functional medicine and I r Veda. She's definitely no lightweight and she has a story here that should disturb every person who has fell into the web of corporate allopathic medicine and the psychiatric medical establishment. Picture this A pregnant psychiatrist stands in a hospital cafeteria staring at processed food, and a thought hits her that she can't shake. 00:01:28:23 - 00:01:54:11 Speaker 1 If this food isn't safe for my baby, why am I feeding it to my psychiatric patients upstairs? And if these drugs aren't something I'd ever give to my own family, why am I prescribing them to strangers? Sounds like the thought of somebody who is thinking ethically. A standard that exceeds law. That question destroyed her career as she knew it. 00:01:54:13 - 00:02:25:22 Speaker 1 It sent her into research that proved the chemical imbalance theory was always a lie. It revealed that the drugs she'd been prescribing were creating the very imbalances they claim to fix, something called neuronal perturbation. The brain fights back against these chemicals, and what starts as a treatment becomes a trap that so many really unfortunately understand. She brought the evidence to her colleagues, published studies and image data. 00:02:26:00 - 00:02:59:08 Speaker 1 They accused her of taking kickbacks from supplement companies. When she started recommending elimination diets and fish oil alongside these drugs, her medical director pulled her aside on her last day and said, be careful with what you're doing. It would be sad for Wisconsin to lose a psychiatrist like you. She heard the threat. She quit anyway. She found a trilogy, Health in Wisconsin and created something called psychiatry to point out a root cause approach that combines functional medicine with 5000 year old Ayer Vedic wisdom. 00:02:59:10 - 00:03:32:20 Speaker 1 She's now reversing conditions that mainstream psychiatry labels chronic and incurable schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, treatment resistant depression, OCD. She's helping people safely taper off the drugs. They were told they needed for life. The psychiatric establishment says she's dangerous. Her patients say she gave them their lives back. This is a psychiatrist who looked at the evidence, looked at her profession and chose her patients over her career. 00:03:32:22 - 00:03:38:17 Speaker 1 Doctor. Aruna Nami, welcome to the radically genuine podcast. 00:03:38:19 - 00:04:02:06 Speaker 2 Thank you so much, Roger. Actually, I'm feeling a little emotional, you know, hearing my life story. This has been a journey, for the last ten years. And, Yeah, I mean, you hit all, the high points. I wouldn't call them the low points. They were actually the the high points and, Yeah. Thank you. 00:04:02:06 - 00:04:23:17 Speaker 2 Thank you for, you know, putting it sort of centrally and, it has moved me to hear my own journey being, you know, described that way. And I can tell you this much, two things that came to my mind. One is that I have absolutely no regrets. In fact, I'm. I feel blessed and honored to be here. 00:04:23:18 - 00:05:04:20 Speaker 2 And the second thing is that I, want to I want to play the devil's advocate on behalf of other psychiatrists. My colleagues, not the administration and the the people that are in the management, including physicians that end up in management, not them, but everyday physicians and psychiatrists who are, you know, trying to do the best. What I do want our listeners today to know is that most physicians go into this profession with the right desire, not right with the desire to help and heal, but the system really sucks our life and our soul out of it. 00:05:04:22 - 00:05:35:06 Speaker 2 And I say this because my first epiphany happened in my very first year of psychiatric residency, when I was still in impacts. So I, I was barely into my psychiatric training, learning about psychosis, reading Kaplan and Sadek, the textbook of psychiatry, and studying about schizophrenia, the chemical imbalance theories, the medications, how limited they are. And there was a movie, that was released in, in India, in South India, Bengaluru's in South India. 00:05:35:10 - 00:06:01:18 Speaker 2 That was in my regional language, Telugu, and it was a biopic of a saint who lived in the 15th century in India. And this saint is regarded as having, promoted or actually come written a treatise on the South Indian musical tradition, the Carnatic music. And he's credited with having composed about 24,000 songs, out of which 14,000 survive today. 00:06:01:19 - 00:06:29:09 Speaker 2 And any student in Carnatic musical tradition learns the saints, like a string of songs and the tradition and all that. But in this movie, what I noticed was that, this saint actually had a spiritual experience. But as a psychiatrically trained mind, as I was watching the movie and it was a very impactful movie, I come back, I actually remember sitting with my cap on and sat at reading something and I thought, oh, poor dude. 00:06:29:09 - 00:06:57:09 Speaker 2 He had a psychotic episode and he suffered for it. If only he had anti-psychotics, right? But immediately the thought came. Would he still have been such a great composer of music and songs? And he went on to be married. He went on to have kids. And, his lineage still exists in South India today. And he was a great saint. 00:06:57:09 - 00:07:27:08 Speaker 2 He was a social reformer. He was, a philosopher. He was a great husband, father, grandfather, contributed to community. So that thought came up. But in the busyness of life, I squashed it. I was like, that's too much for me to handle at this point in time. Let me just put my I mean, I didn't even think about this consciously, but it was only when I, you know, repeatedly it seemed like the universe was knocking on my door. 00:07:27:10 - 00:07:48:03 Speaker 2 And of course, it took my second pregnancy. I mean, even in my first pregnancy, I was still a resident and I would have 36 hour calls. I would pack my breakfast, lunch and dinner and wouldn't pack my breakfast most of the times. But I would go hungry. As a pregnant woman until I came home at 2:00 to find I wouldn't eat any fast food. 00:07:48:03 - 00:08:21:15 Speaker 2 I wouldn't eat in any of the hospital cafeterias. But the connection I made only with my second pregnancy, because I was a little bit settled, I, you know, the the, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, some of my needs are being taken care of. And that allowed me to pause and think about these questions and as like playing the devil's advocate for my colleagues, I want to say that the system keeps them in so much of a hustle and bustle, not allowing them to think, pause, and reflect on these things. 00:08:21:15 - 00:08:43:11 Speaker 2 And when they do, like, I mean, I went through it, I if I quit my job or I would have been fired. I mean, the witch hunt for three months was horrible. Then I had a position that the local medic, the Medical College of Wisconsin, has an assistant professor. By 2019, they, fired me from that, although it was a very passive position. 00:08:43:13 - 00:09:07:21 Speaker 2 The, the, you know, the chairperson of the Department of Psychiatry had a meeting with me and told me that I was doing something that they did not understand, and they don't know what it is that I'm doing. And, so they couldn't associate the institution with, with me. So this was the kind of so, so it really becomes difficult for an average physician to step out of the system. 00:09:07:23 - 00:09:11:14 Speaker 2 But anyway, that those were just a couple of things that I that came to mind. 00:09:11:16 - 00:09:20:12 Speaker 1 Yeah. I'm curious to know a little bit more about what you were doing that they struggled to understand. 00:09:20:14 - 00:09:43:15 Speaker 2 Oh, boy. A simple I began to be very careful about prescribing medications willy nilly. That did not become the first step. So if one incident happened, there was a young woman, she was 18 years old. She was. She presented to under my. She was, hospitalized to the to the hospital. And she was assigned to my care. 00:09:43:17 - 00:10:15:23 Speaker 2 She had come in with depression and suicidal ideation, and I reviewed her history. She had actually been hospitalized at one of the other locations of this hospital system within the same city in Milwaukee, a year or two prior, where she was diagnosed with bipolar. She was prescribed Lamictal and an antidepressant. And within a few days, she ended up having a plastic crisis, which can happen with, let me, let me and some of these, mood stabilizer medications that we use in psychiatry. 00:10:16:01 - 00:10:42:06 Speaker 2 Basically, her bone marrow shut down and her immune system attacked red blood cells, white blood cells and platelets. She would have died. And so she was immediately shipped off to a medical facility. Because many psychiatric hospitals are freestanding psychiatric facilities. She was hospitalized in the ICU for 4 or 5 days, given blood transfusions, a platelet transfusion, all of those things. 00:10:42:08 - 00:11:05:05 Speaker 2 And then she really got scared. She refused to come back to the psychiatric hospital and she went away. And the analysis was that and it became clear to me Lamictal can cost this, but the investigation ended there. So when she comes back a year later with depression and suicidal ideation, I'm like, I'm thinking, oh, she had such a severe reaction. 00:11:05:07 - 00:11:28:21 Speaker 2 What are the kinds of people I need to look at methylation gene polymorphisms? And she was actually having the gene polymorphism possibly homozygous, meaning both her genes were defective. So I passed I didn't want to put her on any psychiatric medication, given that she almost died. And, then I started to talk to her, and it was a it was actually a crisis. 00:11:28:21 - 00:11:57:08 Speaker 2 She came from a very conservative, Catholic background, went to Catholic schools. And when she was a teenager, her older brother came out as gay, and she became the butt of jokes in her Catholic, middle school, in high school. And, parents were struggling with brother coming out as gay. So this was the psychosocial context that made her feel disconnected from her friends from the school, even from her parents didn't know how she had to be with her brother. 00:11:57:10 - 00:12:22:01 Speaker 2 So in all of this, she ended up feeling depressed and which eventually became suicidal ideation. So I hospitalized or did not put on any medication, had daily sessions with her, spoke to her family and discharged her to an outpatient psychiatrist who I knew was more holistic in nature, and who and I explained to him all of this, everything was going well. 00:12:22:03 - 00:12:44:21 Speaker 2 But somehow the management picked up that case and said that it was. I wasn't practicing standard of care because she had come in with suicidal ideation and I did not discharge her with an antidepressant. And that became a big case that they were, you know, so they did the usual medical review and, you know, reprimanding me and, you know, all of that. 00:12:44:23 - 00:13:08:10 Speaker 2 And, and actually, I was they they said that the outpatient psychiatrist in the community was outraged by my substandard practice, and he had reported to the management, which was a lie, because outpatient psychiatrist was my friend. I went to residency with him, so I'm calling him up. This was on March 8th of 2016. I remember very well I am calling him up at 9:00 in the night. 00:13:08:10 - 00:13:29:10 Speaker 2 I'm like, he'd do it if you had a problem with me, why didn't you tell me? And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is not coming from let me send me all the emails you're getting from your management. And he. So I didn't even have the room because I was in that stress situation. And he looked at it and he said, he showed me the chain, like, look, this person has something against you. 00:13:29:12 - 00:13:40:22 Speaker 2 And look at the chain. These are the people in the management who don't like you anymore. And then he said, why are you so afraid? Get out and start your practice. So literally, that's how I started my practice. 00:13:40:22 - 00:14:05:10 Speaker 1 That's a fascinating story. You know, it's interesting because you're trying to practice sound ethical medicine, and you have corporate medicine, which is pushing you to be a drug dealer, which is what has happened in Western societies, is that it's nothing more than being a drug dealer. Doesn't matter if it's medicinal, it doesn't matter about the potential harms. You're pushing as many drugs as possible. 00:14:05:12 - 00:14:32:06 Speaker 1 It's it's I mean, it's so outrageous to hear stories like this, but unfortunately, many of the doctors are just going to comply because of the the economic aspect of this. I mean, the amount of money that is spent to go to medical school and then the years and residency and so forth, it puts you in this almost impossible position that you have to dig yourself. 00:14:32:11 - 00:15:01:11 Speaker 1 Many have to dig themselves out of debt, and so they require working according to that system. Now I'm interested more about then, a little bit about your culture, your history, our Vedic wisdom. From what I understand, and just reading about your story or listening to your story that you grew up in India, you trained in Western medicine, and you initially dismissed our Veda as unscientific. 00:15:01:13 - 00:15:07:23 Speaker 1 What what changed? Because what opened your eyes to this 5000 year old system? 00:15:08:00 - 00:15:35:23 Speaker 2 So growing up in India. So I was born in mid 70s, so post-colonial India, we were still coming out of our colonial identity that was imposed on us and the British there 250 year rule over India. They actually destroyed our Vedic institutions. They would actually, attack I Vedic physicians. They would, corner them and they would chop off their hands so as to not practice over the medicine. 00:15:35:23 - 00:16:03:11 Speaker 2 So there's a lot of atrocities happened and are better then survived under the, auspices of certain independent kingdoms. So Kerala, the Kingdom of Kerala was independent from British. So are you with the survived there in other different pockets of India. It survived when the the ruling king was not under the British rule. It also but some very you know for forward thinkers philosophers. 00:16:03:13 - 00:16:24:13 Speaker 2 Actually my, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is one of them. He actually came to the US in the 1940s with the intention of starting an Irish, institute and kind of, you know, so because truth and, knowledge will always survive and, and so, so I be that went into this kind of almost like into a hiding. 00:16:24:15 - 00:16:56:14 Speaker 2 But, with our independence, the government of India actually started to resurrect, I think, medicine men in a cave give it a more modern spin to it. Many idea the institutes were being built and, you know, a curriculum was created to make it more on par with modern medicine. But I wasn't, but when I was growing up in India, I was still under the the colonial, impression that are you with a is unscientific modern medicine is scientific. 00:16:56:16 - 00:17:21:12 Speaker 2 So then for me, the naturopath and I went to a convent, education, which was very much it was a Catholic school. And, in fact, my grandparents would not allow me to speak in my native language at home because I needed to practice and learn to speak in English. So. So there are a lot of these kinds of subtle things that the colonial, impact lasted for a few generations. 00:17:21:16 - 00:17:58:01 Speaker 2 And I grew up in that post-colonial, thing. And so I, with a survived in families where this lineage had been established, and in, in cities and states where the kingdoms were independent of the British ruled, and then but when I came here and, so I was, you know, by then I had my two kids and the some of these epiphanies were happening, and I started to look at, you know, look at PubMed and Google looking at the connection between diet and, mental health would come across certain studies, but I didn't really have a framework as to how I needed to unlearn what I learned. 00:17:58:01 - 00:18:23:10 Speaker 2 And you know, where to go. And I went for a conference, psychiatry conference, in 2013 of main, which was my which is my which was my last psychiatry conference. And in that conference, there was a group of, psychiatrist. They were calling themselves integrative and holistic psychiatrist. And at that time, I thought they were integrating psychopharmacology, psychopharmacology with psychotherapy. 00:18:23:12 - 00:18:47:17 Speaker 2 That is what I thought integrative and holistic meant. But, then I started to hang out with them and saw what they were talking about, and I was intrigued. And one of them, and she became a good friend, Doctor Sharma, she then told me, hey, if you're interested, you should come to Abia. Abiquiu, which was in, it's the American Board of Integrative and Holistic Medicine conference that was happening in October 2013. 00:18:47:18 - 00:19:15:21 Speaker 2 So May 2013 was my last AP October 2013 was my first holistic medicine conference and I haven't stopped going to these conferences. ABA am is more like a mixed bag. It gave me an introduction to so many different like Chinese medicine. I read medicine, functional medicine, homeopathic medicine, naturopathy medicine. So we got a really good introduction, and people were encouraged to choose and explore the parts that spoke to us. 00:19:15:21 - 00:19:40:01 Speaker 2 For me, that was functional medicine that I'm with. So I decided to go, along both of these tracks. And I studied out there with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's institute, Maharishi Institute in Fairfield, and I also started attending functional medicine conferences. So on the one hand, I started to understand I read the medicine in the way that it was written by sages 5000 7000 years ago. 00:19:40:03 - 00:19:59:19 Speaker 2 But on the other hand, functional medicine gave me the modern language, the modern tools that we could use, and it seemed like a perfect synergy for me. So, that's how it came about. But I should say that my training, like my degree in India, was actually called neuro psychiatry because and it was drilled upon me like India. 00:19:59:19 - 00:20:24:17 Speaker 2 I mean, my medical education as well as my psychiatric education was more holistic. It was mind and body together. And in my institute, when I was a resident back in 1999 to 2002, there were actually doing, research studies looking at effective yoga practices like there's one called sedation prayer yoga. And that actually is has been shown to be comparable to amitriptyline for mild to moderate depression. 00:20:24:19 - 00:20:45:21 Speaker 2 And I remember looking at all of this and you know, the studies were happening like another rest other resident who was, you know, the principal investigator in that study. She was I remember this conversation with her and I was like, how can that be? How can yoga and breathing really do that? And that was because that's my ignorance that made me, you know, shut things down and that that happened. 00:20:45:21 - 00:21:07:10 Speaker 2 So having an open mind is very, very I mean, that's one of the things like, you know, understand it. Only when we, when we develop experiential wisdom, embodied wisdom. So knowledge first, it's just facts and figures. But then when we experience it and when it becomes embodied wisdom, that's when the truth of that knowledge actually becomes more apparent to us. 00:21:07:12 - 00:21:22:20 Speaker 1 So for the listeners who haven't been exposed to either Veda yet, how would you compare and contrast this other Vedic and functional medicine approach to what is typical allopathic medicine in the Western world? 00:21:22:22 - 00:21:50:21 Speaker 2 Oh boy, there are many, many key differences. First of all, I Vedic medicine and functional medicine, and almost all holistic medicine, from chiropractic, naturopathy. Like everything they have this inherent understanding that the soul is primary in I whether we call it energy, and prana in Chinese medicine we call it chai, and naturopathy. I think in chiropractic, in natural physic medicine, we call it the vital force or the vitality. 00:21:50:23 - 00:22:13:22 Speaker 2 What all of this refers is that there is an entity beyond mind, body, and the brain that is actually orchestrating all of the functions. I mean, how does a single celled zygote become a human baby? I mean, look, if you just pay attention to some of these, like, how does you know if you eat a banana? Let's say you and I, we share a banana, that banana overnight, it's going to become me. 00:22:13:22 - 00:22:31:00 Speaker 2 It's not going to remain a banana in my body. It's not going to become you. But the same banana you're eating, it's going to become you. It's not going to become me. So what is that intelligence in us that is able to do that? So these were some of the so that's the first thing that there is an inner intelligence. 00:22:31:01 - 00:23:00:20 Speaker 2 It's all knowing. It has all the answers. And it is that intelligence that governs all life processes. This is common to all holistic medicine traditions. And it is based on quantum physics action, whereas in modern medicine it's actually based on matter being primary and it's based on Newtonian physics. That is the fundamental flaw with modern medicine. And because there is no understanding there is that there is this inherent intelligence, a self-governing intelligence. 00:23:00:20 - 00:23:21:10 Speaker 2 Of course, they talk about homeostasis, but they don't. And they think that homeostasis is happening because of the chemicals. Let's say your blood is going up and then they say that, oh, by because of the process of homeostasis, your blood is automatically coming down. No. What is that entity that is actually looking at. Oh blood is going up. 00:23:21:10 - 00:23:48:04 Speaker 2 I need to come up with some compensation. It's the same intelligence when when somebody is taking an antidepressant is saying, oh, this is not actually right for me. I need to compensate for it. So it is that intelligence that is operating day in and day out and in our basic medicine and almost all, in all traditional, holistic forms of medicine, including shamanism and all of these, different varieties that we have. 00:23:48:06 - 00:24:14:04 Speaker 2 They all work to enliven that intelligence, to get us in connection with that intelligence. So it is true empowerment. It's about going in. Whereas here in modern medicine it is about this empowerment or you don't know anything. I am the doctor here. I am the hospital. I am the insurance company here. Do as I say and you're going to be fine. 00:24:14:06 - 00:24:48:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. It's interesting. I had a fascinating debate between Doctor Adam Erato and a psychiatry resident, Doctor Robert Chen, on steroids during pregnancy. Doctor, your Otto's being a maternal fetal medicine physician, one of the foremost experts on SSRI and its harms to fetal development. But I asked them I posed the question, why do people get depressed? And I thought that was fundamental because if you're ever going to provide informed consent and you're going to try to intervene in some way, the formulation matters. 00:24:48:10 - 00:25:24:11 Speaker 1 And in psychiatry, Doctor Chen answered this question from this materialist, Newtonian physics perspective. And he couldn't answer it because he says multifactorial, which doesn't mean anything to a patient. And, he can't really articulate in any way about the human spirit, the human condition, the challenges. The idea that there is a soul that is experiencing, life through this human body and it's painful and we're in a lower dimensional field, and there's all these challenges. 00:25:24:11 - 00:25:37:20 Speaker 1 He can't discuss human emotional state because he hasn't been trained that way. So let me ask you, as a psychiatrist, why do people get depressed? 00:25:37:22 - 00:26:00:03 Speaker 2 I will start by saying that it is multifactorial. For me, depression is really a disconnection syndrome. It's a it's a cry for help from our soul. Not just the mind, not just the body. It's actually coming from a soul. And it's a disconnection syndrome where the person is actually disconnected from their. So we are disconnected from rhythms of nature. 00:26:00:05 - 00:26:25:00 Speaker 2 We are disconnected from each other. We are disconnected from community. So depression is really a disconnection syndrome. That's, psycho spiritual way of understanding the old way. This understanding would be that the any disease happens inside of it. Actually, they say that the fundamental root cause of any disease is low self-worth. 00:26:25:01 - 00:26:53:16 Speaker 2 That's it. And they put it in a spiritual way, and they, so that low self-worth arises when you feel disconnected from the whole. We are part of this cosmos. But when we are made to feel that you are alone, you are nobody. There is no meaning to who you are that gives rise to such discomfort that it can give rise to not just depression, but cancer, to everything else and everything in between. 00:26:53:18 - 00:26:58:00 Speaker 2 So a root. So that's the ironic understanding. So a functional medicine. 00:26:58:02 - 00:27:22:20 Speaker 1 Can I jump in there real quick. So it seems like what you're saying is a root cause of disease is around disconnection or in other words, are out of alignment or out of balance. And that could be of all the call of nature. So when it is multifactorial, what we're really saying is there are many different causes. I guess somebody could be putting poisons into their body, of course, and be out of balance, and that would be a root cause of disease. 00:27:22:22 - 00:27:41:11 Speaker 1 But also they can be off their souls path that they're living a life that they're not designed to live. And that is painful. And that pipeline is designed for ultimate transformation, really, to return you back to why you're actually here. 00:27:41:13 - 00:28:11:04 Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So from that lens, I and I completely am in agreement with the way that you have described it. Yes. I mean, every disease, not just depression, every disease is really an opportunity for growth and transformation. These obstacles, they're not really I mean, Doctor Joe Dispenza actually says this, that every impossible situation, not every great possibility comes disguised as a as an impossible circumstances situation. 00:28:11:06 - 00:28:47:17 Speaker 2 So these are possibilities for us to become larger than human. It's actually all of these crises that happen in our life are here to make us transcend our human limitations, which is becoming divine or more like the creator. That is the purpose that we are every single one of us is on that, life track. But to make it easy for everyone, I mean, in terms of even education, what I've come to teach is that all diseases have only three root causes. 00:28:47:18 - 00:29:12:16 Speaker 2 Diet and lifestyle is number one, trauma is number two, and toxins is number three. So this is kind of a framework that I've come. And it helps me to not to not miss any of them, any of the any of these root causes. And, and in practically in experience, I do find that all these three verticals are in some way impacted for a given patient. 00:29:12:18 - 00:29:31:18 Speaker 2 One more than the others. But we have to consider all of this, and fundamentally that disconnection and low self-worth, because whether it is we are choosing to eat junk food that can only come when we don't value our own self enough to do right by us. 00:29:31:19 - 00:29:45:19 Speaker 1 From what? From what I understand is a you had a colleague who mocked you, on the ire of that understanding of mental illness. Well, I think it's called Buddha Vidya. Memory pronouncing that correct. Yeah. 00:29:45:21 - 00:29:48:19 Speaker 2 But the truth of with. Yeah, yeah, but. 00:29:48:21 - 00:30:09:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. So what does that actually refer to? And, what does it reveal about the understanding of psychiatric conditions? How would you respond to that colleague who mocked you as if you were setting psychiatry back to the dark Ages? And it's meaning that there's some possession by demons? 00:30:09:07 - 00:30:32:07 Speaker 2 Yes. And all of this, I mean, so much of it, you know, when people, even a lot of, Indian physicians actually criticize arguing with that and they're all coming from a place of ignorance. None of them. I've actually tried to understand how read the in its original language, which is in Sanskrit, try to understand what is the actual meaning of the Sanskrit words, but they take the colloquial meaning of it. 00:30:32:09 - 00:30:59:17 Speaker 2 So in this example, the other. I mean, can you imagine that 5000 years ago or 3000 years ago, when the night weather was actually written down, it had eight disciplines and psychiatry was one of them. Modern psychiatry is barely 100 plus years old, but the sages who wrote down this had the wherewithal to even think about mind and the spirit as an entity and even recognize, like psychosis, depression, OCD and many different forms of meditation. 00:30:59:22 - 00:31:23:01 Speaker 2 All of these things have been very clearly written down, in, psychiatry, in I Vedic psychiatry. Now, they called it put the with because the understanding was that, that psychiatry really referred psychiatric illnesses. And this is of the software of the body. So for this we have to go into the, the understanding of creation and life. 00:31:23:03 - 00:31:40:17 Speaker 2 And it is very much similar to the Big Bang. They do say that, you know, at first, you know, there was the big bang, which is the sound. Then came light and, you know, all of these things. But the way in either that is described as at first it was space was created, then air, then the element of fire, then water and earth. 00:31:40:17 - 00:32:04:02 Speaker 2 These are called pancha maha. But as pancha means five, maha means great, Buddha means elements. So it really refers to the five great cosmic elements that that first came into creation with the Big Bang. And so that word good that refers to this subtle energy. So when the Big Bang happened, matter was nowhere around because it was still just energy. 00:32:04:02 - 00:32:28:04 Speaker 2 There was a whole mass of energy that was vibrating at very, very high frequency. But as that energy cooled down and that vibration came down, the frequency came down, it condensed into matter. And that's how creation came into existence, according to I, with a which, if you see, is very, very similar to modern, quantum physics descriptions of the origin of universe. 00:32:28:06 - 00:33:04:12 Speaker 2 But the beauty refers to the subtle energetic element which still exists in our bodies. The those five, bunch of Maha Buddhas organized into three doses rather than kapha. We are still at the in the realm of energy here, but rather than kapha then give rise to all the organs, all the cells and the tissues. And in Vedic medicine, when we talk about psychiatric illness, as we are really saying that it's a problem with the software, yes, we have to still heal the hardware, but you have to understand that it is a software problem. 00:33:04:14 - 00:33:35:19 Speaker 2 But over thousands of years of Indian culture, the word Buddha came to be. It basically refers to subtle forms of energy that is not immediately visible with our five senses and those subtle forms of energy. And like, I mean, there's always polarity in this realm. There's good and there is bad. And the word Buddha came to be associated with bad energies or bad energetic entities like devils and demons and ghosts and spirits. 00:33:35:21 - 00:34:04:22 Speaker 2 And one of the. And so this is the the dilution of the language and the meaning into colloquial language that has happened. And so one of the understanding of especially psychiatric illness or psychosis was that maybe it was a devil possession or spirit possession that became the colloquial understanding. So this colleague of mine, when I was, you know, when I announced way back in 2016, 2017 that I practicing, I read a psychiatrist who was a physician colleague from my medical school days. 00:34:04:22 - 00:34:39:18 Speaker 2 He said, oh, now you're taking you know, you'll be exercising demons and all that. But little does he know, he's not a psychiatrist. He's, I think he's, some of the branch of medicine. NiMH has actually did a study in 2001 where they compared outcomes for psychosis with antipsychotics versus temple healing. So are many in, from villages when, you know, the first choice for many villages in India is to seek temple healing, where the patient is taken to a particular temple that is recognized as having these energetic healing properties. 00:34:39:20 - 00:35:01:23 Speaker 2 This patient with psychosis stays there in the temple grounds, participates in the temple activities and it is understood that the energy of the temple actually heals the patient from psychosis. And the. The very interesting thing is that temple healing is better than antipsychotics at the end of 4 to 6 weeks without side effects. 00:35:02:01 - 00:35:31:12 Speaker 1 So it does beg the question about energies. Okay. And so maybe this gets into some controversial topics because it's non materialist. It's it's non secularist. It's it's certainly brings us down a path to understand our nature of reality from a different perspective. So let's talk about the term, dark energy's lower energy fields, things of that nature. 00:35:31:14 - 00:35:57:07 Speaker 1 I've spoken to lots of people privately and continue to expose myself to varying perspectives and people's experience on this plane that are outside what are normal and typical. And there are many people, even trained physicians, who will tell me privately, yes, there is this, energetic possession. They may not use the word demon, for example, but they might use words like darker energies. 00:35:57:07 - 00:36:05:04 Speaker 1 They might talk about spiritual force. Is that something that you consider? 00:36:05:06 - 00:36:30:11 Speaker 2 So I've given this I mean, yes, because I mean, and because of the way that I was practicing, I've actually had, especially Catholic patients with psychosis, their families have taken their family member for exorcisms here in the US. And they those families actually have reported to me that their patient has gotten better. I can think of at least 2 or 3 patients that this has happened. 00:36:30:12 - 00:36:50:16 Speaker 2 And it's because, of course, these patients felt and I think it happens much more. But maybe many patients and their families are not comfortable talking about it. They were receiving treatment from me in whatever way I was doing. But they also sort these other things, and their belief system tells them that it's the exorcism that helps that patient. 00:36:50:16 - 00:37:11:18 Speaker 2 And who am I to deny that? But for my own personal understanding and as my own, you know, I meditate. You know, I do a lot of spiritual, rituals myself. And what I've come to understand is that ultimately, everything comes from one source, one creator. It's because we are in this earth realm, which is the realm of polarity. 00:37:11:18 - 00:37:57:11 Speaker 2 We have split even that source energy into light and dark, and the dark energy can take any of its manifestations. But for me, the simplest way to understand any dark energy is that it is a survival energy. It's a stress hormones, adrenaline, sympathetic, selfish, self-centered, all of those narcissistic. I mean, you could call any of these jobs, but from the simplest way that I've understood for myself is that it's simply a survival energy, because whoever is manifesting those dark energies is is still somebody that is still a manifestation of the creator of the ultimate source, ultimate truth. 00:37:57:13 - 00:38:25:11 Speaker 2 And for me, when but when I look at it in that way, my job then becomes is to enhance my own light, because that's the only way you dispel darkness is by sharing light and in treatment with. If I'm working with somebody who is narcissistic or who is, you know, having feeling that they are in that narcissistic relationship or, you know, I'm bringing up narcissism because that is usually kind of talked about in these dark energies. 00:38:25:13 - 00:39:04:17 Speaker 2 Also, but I'm not going to much into that demon possession and things like that. Or maybe, I mean, I would extend my thinking even to those states as well, that it is we can still help a person get in touch with their light and overcome the darkness within. Whether we do that with nutrition, whether we do that with some of these, energy enhancing, rituals, whether you do that with, with chanting, with, you know, our exorcism rituals, or it could be simply enhancing the self worth and self respect that a person can have for themselves. 00:39:04:19 - 00:39:38:04 Speaker 2 These are all this and most of my I'm. How can I forget this? It's actually creating love I mean and and the medium of the therapeutic relationship loving positive regard given unconditionally can be the light that can overcome the darkness. And that's why I love Harry Potter movies. The Dementors, that's the darkness. And I think it's the Prisoner of Azkaban where Harry Potter is thinking, I mean, you know, the Dementors as sucking the life out of him as well as, Sirius Black. 00:39:38:06 - 00:39:53:01 Speaker 2 And he thinks that he's seeing his parents and they're going to save him and Sirius Black, but then it turns out that it's him. So it's he has to reach within to find his likeness, because only his light in this film, the darkness. 00:39:53:03 - 00:40:15:17 Speaker 1 Yeah. I had an interesting conversation recently with a gentleman who said, your protection against the dark is love as an energy that that darkness harvests fear they can attach to humans. They can attempt to allow humans to create in ways that serve that darkness and harvest fear. And we see that light first, dark as a spiritual battle here on earth. 00:40:15:19 - 00:40:39:15 Speaker 1 My question is, what do you know about the shift in consciousness on the planet Earth? This evolutionary shift that we may be going through? I don't know if you've heard of this, this shifting to five dimensional consciousness, a unity consciousness. I think that this is something that's probably quite critical, for our time and the next few years in the head. 00:40:39:20 - 00:40:42:17 Speaker 1 I want to get your thoughts on it. 00:40:42:19 - 00:41:07:02 Speaker 2 Yes. I think the first time I heard about this was when I read, Charles Eisenstein, essay. I think it's called the, The Age of Awakening or something like that. But then I, you know, for me, I read, you know, literature from all different sources, and but my fall back has always been the, the scriptures in the Hindu tradition and the million gods and goddesses that we have. 00:41:07:02 - 00:41:27:20 Speaker 2 And so from that perspective, actually, I've been thinking about penning an article about this on my Substack as well. So the chaos that we are seeing right now, this that we are actually coming out of the age of Darkness, there is no question about that. And what coming out of the Age of Darkness really means is the union of polarities. 00:41:27:20 - 00:41:51:18 Speaker 2 In Hindu tradition, we call it as Shiva and shifting Shiva is the witness consciousness. Shakti is the moving energy. Shiva is the masculine principle. The end. Shetty's the feminine principle. And the creative principle. And in the the time epoch, I mean, time has been divided in the Hindu tradition into four big, yuccas or epochs. 00:41:51:20 - 00:42:24:21 Speaker 2 The first one was a set to govern everything was it's the age of truth, and light. Everything was perfect. Shivan Shakti. Where in union. Then comes, the, in three to yuga. 3 in 3 to you got a little bit of corruption has already started. So there is the separation of Shiva in the. And we see that, in, in the great stories, you know, in the Ramayana, we see there is a suppression of the feminine principle a little bit then comes to operate, and Krishna is the god of the upper Yuga. 00:42:24:23 - 00:42:47:02 Speaker 2 There is even more suppression of the feminine principle and patriarchy. And this toxic masculinity begins to wrap its head. And then we come to the dark, dark ages, which is the Kali Yuga, which is where we are towards. We are in the upswing of Kali Yuga. So we are definitely seeing that. And in Kali Yuga, no wonder Delhi became the rape capital of the world at one point in time. 00:42:47:04 - 00:43:16:08 Speaker 2 That is the absolute suppression and oppression and torture of the feminine principle. But we rise from that and we rise through destruction. So the MeToo movement and, you know, the all of these things that have happened in our recent cultural memory, that is all the destructive principle of the feminine energy of Shakti, which is symbolically known as the Kali, the, the, the destroyer, she is rising up. 00:43:16:08 - 00:43:48:07 Speaker 2 But then once Kali comes up, it creates the void. And then from the void again, truth and life and goodness and all of that, awakens and is nurtured and we move to a higher plane of existence and, experience, where by nature that is of the the union of the polarities. Shivan check the union. And when that happens, it does give rise to that unity consciousness and the way for every individual. 00:43:48:09 - 00:44:12:05 Speaker 2 So this has to happen at the collective level. But it can only happen at the collective level when we do it at the individual level. And it is. So, when Shakti is suppressed, she's at the base of the spine. She's only in the survival centers that no. Three energy centers. The I'm, I'm going a little bit into the you know, we have the seven chapters actually each chakras, the lower three are to do with survival. 00:44:12:10 - 00:44:47:19 Speaker 2 And when it gets suppressed, there we go into that, adrenaline charged, sympathetic survival mode. But through meditation, through intention, when we move that energy first into the heart center, which is where the first union of polarities happens in our heart center, love is generated. And this love is first for us and then for everybody else. When that happens, then that energy, that potential of energy then rises up through the seventh chakra, through the air flow, which is the door to the the divine consciousness, which is just a witness consciousness. 00:44:47:19 - 00:45:34:20 Speaker 2 In fact, in our in the Hindu tradition, they say that Shiva without check the is Shiva. Shiva means corpse. So Shiva is nothing without Shakti. And when there is that polarity, that's what creates the chaos. So when each individual person is paying attention to their own energies and devoting time to raise their consciousness and awareness first into their heart center and then above, that is what will take us into the fifth dimension and so those of us who come into this practice one way or the other, and of course, this is just one of the pathways that has been described on another pathway, could be really practicing that love for yourself and for every living 00:45:34:20 - 00:45:50:04 Speaker 2 creature, practicing nonviolence in thought, in word, and indeed as much as possible, that also will take us to the fifth dimension. So, I mean, there's no one passage. 00:45:50:06 - 00:46:18:17 Speaker 1 Okay, I want to talk to you a little bit about the Christian perspective of this. There's the Psalms verse that says, be still and know that I am God. And I had my own spiritual awakenings that moved me towards meditation and really learning to quiet my mind. And in that I have received and I have received messages. And of course, I've also surrendered to the flow of God in life to allow myself to meet others who are in a similar path. 00:46:18:19 - 00:46:51:03 Speaker 1 And, similar things are being experienced on their end. So it's not out of the ordinary for me to hear what you just said from your perspective and from your faith background, because I'm hearing similar things when my mind is quiet, is that we are undergoing a shift from three dimensional reality to a five dimensional reality, one that is of unity consciousness, and in that is a shift of the darkness towards light, towards love, the interconnectedness of all things. 00:46:51:05 - 00:47:18:20 Speaker 1 And what I believe is going to happen is we are going to see widespread disruption and some chaos as we undergo this shift, as our physical bodies are adapting to this new, energy that exists on the planet. And I think it's going to interface with the medical system, and the medical system is going to label these as psychiatric conditions when they are energy shifts that are undergoing. 00:47:18:20 - 00:47:46:06 Speaker 1 And so it's going to be on us who are aware of this, to be able to educate, people across the planet on how best to manage this energy. And we are in a state of drift where so many people are hooked up to devices and social media and media. They're constant. They're under constant distraction that they can't even sit in silence and be with themselves. 00:47:46:08 - 00:48:18:05 Speaker 1 And so, some of the messages that have come to me, which I'm learning as I receive them, is the shift from masculine to divine mother, divine feminine energy that in, this previous state, this three dimensional world that we're in, there's an imbalance of masculine energy and a movement towards the divine Mother, the divine feminine, where there's a nurturing, loving energy that is more feminine, which seeks out a balance. 00:48:18:08 - 00:48:47:04 Speaker 1 And then once we are able to, as each individual is, you know, goes into meditation, is actually able to practice love, which is also the message of Jesus Christ, love and forgiveness and uses that energy and lifts the energy individually. It is going to be assumed by the collective in that in that shift. But we're going to go through a period of time of great disruption. 00:48:47:06 - 00:49:23:06 Speaker 1 And so my question to you is, how do we even begin to educate people on what this might look like or be experienced? So I'm going to tell some personal stories here. For example, when I experience this unity consciousness in the depths of meditation, it felt euphoric. And I have also been in contact with other people who just the development of those relationships have led to like what I call an energy upgrade. 00:49:23:06 - 00:49:49:10 Speaker 1 And various spiritual practices that I have learned and engaged in have led to that, which on its surface, could look manic. Now, I'm very well trained. There's all aspects of my life regarding my physical health, my spiritual meditative prayer practice, relationships and my understanding as a clinical psychologist allows me to be able to manage what is internally happening to me. 00:49:49:12 - 00:50:14:14 Speaker 1 But when this happens to other people and the interface with the medical system, they say things like, you're having a religious delusion. They say things, you're you're manic, you're bipolar, and then they're trying to drug this, which is how why I view that the psychiatric industrial complex and this medical industrial complex that has become just these drugs which, do disconnect you from the divine, and they disconnect you from each other. 00:50:14:16 - 00:50:30:10 Speaker 1 It is preventing or its goal is to prevent that shift, on the planet. And there's only so many people I can have this conversation with because I get labeled as, like, I'm losing my mind. So what are your thoughts on what I just said? 00:50:30:12 - 00:50:53:07 Speaker 2 I actually, I mean, I agree with what you're saying, and, that that was my first epiphany back in 1999 when I saw that movie, like, you know, I thought, you know, from that psychiatrically trained mind, if I had lived in the time of that saint, I would have diagnosed him with schizophrenia and put him on meds. So but that was my first test. 00:50:53:07 - 00:51:19:18 Speaker 2 So, yes, I mean, psychosis and spirituality are two sides of the same coin. And the, way I understand is. So you mean you brought up a lot of things here? Yes. I mean that the there is darkness in the psychiatric industrial complex. There is no question about that. And I don't know where that darkness originated from and what was the intent of the darkness. 00:51:19:19 - 00:51:37:18 Speaker 2 And, I mean, I like to always get the benefit of the doubt. I mean, I, the scientist who came up with the anti-psychotics and antidepressants, I do like to think that they started off with good intentions, but somewhere things went all right. But what we are seeing is that those medications, they do disconnect us from actually the mind and the body gets disconnected. 00:51:37:19 - 00:52:01:06 Speaker 2 The medications disconnect us from the divinity, no doubt about all of that. And that should not be the way to be offered to anybody that is, going through a psychosis episode. I don't do that in my practice. In fact, I'd rather give a benzodiazepine. Actually, many supplements can actually help with the insomnia that can happen. It can help with some of the disruptions in the biological function that can happen. 00:52:01:08 - 00:52:31:04 Speaker 2 We don't have to rely on psychiatric medications. So what can we do? Number one, we have to keep talking about it. We have to educate patients when they come in systems organizations the powers that be. And your I mean you're doing your part more than your part. I would say Roger that. Your you know, having these difficult conversations even at the cost of being, you know, becoming a an object of ridicule. 00:52:31:06 - 00:52:49:09 Speaker 2 And, I don't know about you, but I'm going to be hearing 15 next month, and I'm like, I'm ready to leave all of those behind. I mean, nothing, you know, truth to power is what is going to be my mantra for now. And all of this is it for any to do any of these things. 00:52:49:09 - 00:53:11:17 Speaker 2 The first thing is that our internal state so when we are feeling cool on the inside, when our, consciousness is in union, which happens with meditation practice, when we are coming from that space, no matter what we see, what we do, it will land where it needs to land, and it'll take root and sprout. So that much I'm am confident about. 00:53:11:18 - 00:53:36:20 Speaker 2 And, so that gives me the the courage and the motivation to do what I do. Every day. I'm guessing it's kind of similar to you as well. But if you were to ask me, what are the things that we can actually do, we have to find spaces where we go in and we talk about these things, even if it feels that it's going to be that it's not going to be received. 00:53:36:20 - 00:54:04:15 Speaker 2 I think as, as and when opportunity arises, we have to go. We have to talk. We have to express alternate viewpoints. And, and if, you know, we don't have to look too far, just look at other cultures. I mean, anthropologically, when we look at how the psychotic symptoms were recorded throughout history of mankind, they were always seen as a gift across cultures, around the world. 00:54:04:17 - 00:54:28:10 Speaker 2 They were seen as a spiritual gift. It's only the modern spin that and this modern spin. If you look at the collective human memory, this amnesia is only 100, maybe 150 years old. I say this even with regard to dietary choices, like, you know, people, you know, when they tell me, oh, you know, it's so easy to get junk food and, you know, this is what we've always done. 00:54:28:12 - 00:54:54:04 Speaker 2 No, no, no, this is not what you have always done. Your genes have only faced this only since post-World War Two. Before that, people eat locally, they eat fresh, they eat the whole animal. There are no chemicals. They eat a variety of things to eat seasonally. So much of it is the propaganda. So much of it is the marketing, so much. 00:54:54:04 - 00:55:09:16 Speaker 2 I mean like, you know, we've been told that right is wrong and wrong as right up as dogmatic or that's and for all of this, I mean I cannot emphasize the importance of going into this stillness with within. 00:55:09:18 - 00:55:39:14 Speaker 1 Well said. And it's important to note that the industrial age of the mass poisoning and the lies have a very clear agenda, and that is to create sickness and illness, disconnection and then dependance on those very systems that they profit from. And this awakening that's occurring right now, even as I speak on this show today, it's just recently there's been more release of the Epstein Files. 00:55:39:14 - 00:56:16:16 Speaker 1 And you say, you see the interconnectedness of all of this positions in power. So many people are under control of this very dark intelligence web to be able to prove, to be able to provide what amounts to as an anti-human war industrial complex, medical complex, all things that interfere with with human flourishing and those transhumanist anti-human, world leaders talk about human beings really as being parasitic. 00:56:16:18 - 00:56:41:04 Speaker 1 And it's an anti-life agenda. And you see it by they're everything that they're trying to do to destroy the environment in the way that they destroy the environment with false ideas. The fake food, the chemical laced food, the pushing of pharmaceuticals, in inducing pandemics with biological agents and so forth. I mean, it's really an anti-life agenda. We're waking up to that. 00:56:41:06 - 00:57:10:08 Speaker 1 You know, I think I've years ago this would be branded conspiracy theory in what has been branded conspiracy theory in the past is now the light is shining on it and saying, no, this is actually real. This is true. And then the shift to five consciousness. One of the things you do learn is that we are creators of our own reality, that we can go inward, raise our vibration projects, create in consciousness, and then manifest out into physical form. 00:57:10:10 - 00:57:39:21 Speaker 1 And not a lot of people understand what that means, and it's labeled woowoo and it doesn't make any sense. And it's again, it's it's also being commercialized today as many social influencers try to push this idea, I think a false idea of manifestation. But can you explain the idea of, being creators, of our own reality and the impact of consciousness on matter? 00:57:39:23 - 00:58:20:17 Speaker 2 So, I mean, I let me speak from my personal experience first, and then we'll, I'll take it, tie it to the the health scenario. So great example Covid, the Covid pandemic is I mean, if anybody questions this creation manifestation, you know that we create our own destiny. That's the Covid pandemic was a stark example. So for those of for people like you and me who didn't believe in any of this, and for me, the virus did not exist, or even if it did, it did was not a threat. 00:58:20:19 - 00:58:42:02 Speaker 2 So me and my family, I mean, this is we're talking 20 years ago, I had even younger kids. I started off by being afraid. And then once I learned I once I read the studies and everything, once I realized that this was something was afoot here, once I changed my internal perception of the threat and did not believe in that, then we've traveled the most. 00:58:42:02 - 00:59:06:13 Speaker 2 I even went to India when everybody was saying that, oh, they will not allow you there. No, none of the things that happened that that others were either afraid of or experiencing was not my reality. So just in terms of the travel piece and even falling sick, I did not fall sick with the virus. But every time I was in a room full of vaccinated people, I did fall sick. 00:59:06:13 - 00:59:25:07 Speaker 2 At that time that also I was thinking okay, because I was more afraid of the shedding and the virus, the vaccine. Did I create that for myself? So, you know, maybe. But I really was not afraid of the virus and it did not I never I did not actually fall sick with the virus at any point in time. 00:59:25:09 - 00:59:48:07 Speaker 2 And it did not prevent it did not alter my life in any way. I did not take the vaccine. My family also, you know, they were not vaccinated and our life continued. But for those who believed that they cannot travel, they cannot work, they will not be able to do certain things or this virus is very deadly, they're gonna die. 00:59:48:09 - 01:00:00:05 Speaker 2 We saw that people, if they believed in the threat and the fear of death was wrong, they were dying to, you know, all things natural. 01:00:00:07 - 01:00:02:15 Speaker 1 The mind is very, very by this. 01:00:02:17 - 01:00:26:06 Speaker 2 Yeah. And now dying in the health scenario. So when we look at these signs of placebo, the placebo research, I think Bernie Siegel was a Yale physician surgeon who did a lot of work in the placebo, field, in the 60s and 70s, I think, well into the 80s. And after towards the end of his career, this is what he said. 01:00:26:08 - 01:00:34:09 Speaker 2 There are no incurable diseases, only incurable patients. 01:00:34:11 - 01:01:07:05 Speaker 2 So what, and the way that happens is that it is actually a neurochemical immune pathway that is in at play here. So it's neurochemical, neuro endocrine, neuro immunological pathways that get activated whenever we are in the placebo response. This is what's happening. But in placebo response what is happening is that is the thought, the belief, the thought that we accept, believe and surrender. 01:01:07:06 - 01:01:22:00 Speaker 2 The thought of healing. If we accept believe in surrender, that becomes true for us. The nocebo is the thought that you're gonna have a bad outcome when you accept, believe, and surrender to it. That becomes the reality for us. 01:01:22:02 - 01:01:48:08 Speaker 2 So yeah, does that answer your question? You know, with regard to other forms of manifestation? Yes. I mean, you know, there is the the use of it that is the abuse of it. We see that all the time. But and like with anything, that's why I tell people that it's not about knowledge, it's about experiential wisdom. It's about embodied wisdom. 01:01:48:10 - 01:01:59:06 Speaker 2 Any knowledge, you have to try it out for yourself and see whether it works for you or not. 01:01:59:08 - 01:02:35:21 Speaker 1 It's interesting because the power of our beliefs can be so multi-layered and with we are not conscious beings. If we do not facilitate the intention to be observers of our experience, then we become reacting automatically to what we've been exposed to in our lives, in our culture, from our upbringing, from what the media, places into our subconscious, what we experience in this world and those beliefs as they become embedded in the collective unconscious. 01:02:35:21 - 01:03:15:23 Speaker 1 And then we expect all of them to manifest itself out in reality. I think the one of the best examples of this is the fear of your genetic vulnerabilities. And it's pushed by the medical establishment without any founding, without any strong scientific evidence. They push this, this narrative that you are somehow a victim to your genes. And unless you enter into our system and you, you try to utilize all our preventative measures, which also creates an and consciousness, then that disease itself is, is going to manifest itself. 01:03:16:01 - 01:03:54:18 Speaker 1 But the truth of the matter is that's creating disease. So we know this from psych neuro immunology research is that once you create this idea in consciousness, it is impacting you throughout your bodies, your cells, your DNA. Because what's created in this does get manifested that way. That's why I really do encourage people to pull yourself out of the fear provocation of the sick care system, and to the degree that people believe that they have some genetic vulnerability to something because they ancestor down the line, whether that be a heart condition or cancer or alcoholism, they have they are an active creator in that entire experience. 01:03:54:18 - 01:04:05:02 Speaker 1 And you see how they live their lives to make that very real and how that will be impacted, that will be affected in the body. 01:04:05:04 - 01:04:28:10 Speaker 2 Absolutely, absolutely. And, I mean, to give another a personal example of this, like, you know, before I went for my first job hunt, aviation conference, I had no idea that you could heal people by changing their diet and detoxifying and, you know, doing some of those things I had that was not even in my worldview. I thought chronic fatigue syndrome was chronic. 01:04:28:12 - 01:04:53:19 Speaker 2 IBS was incurable. Mental illnesses, of course, are incurable, but one experience of attending that conference and listening to some key speakers talk about their experience, I remember I had this very, very clear, and it was a very emotional experience. That's why, only when our emotions get engaged in this process. So it's not just affirmation, various talk, oh, I'm healthy, I'm healthy, I'm healthy, doesn't work. 01:04:53:21 - 01:05:27:06 Speaker 2 Only when our body and our emotional body gets engaged in this process. That's when it becomes reality for us. That's that's the key to creation. Because I remember I saw Doctor Patrick Henry present his functional lecture on functional medicine, and he described a patient that he had helped heal from 40 different diagnoses. And, no, 20 different diagnoses and 40 different medications that she was prescribed over her lifetime of 40 years, within six months, or, you know, within a short amount of time, she was completely healed and off the medications. 01:05:27:07 - 01:05:46:03 Speaker 2 And that was a typical patient that I was seeing middle aged women with IBS, depression, anxiety and thyroid issues and, you know, all relationship issues and all of that. When I saw that, that opened up a possibility for me, that it okay, if he can do it, I can do it. All I have to do is learn how to do that. 01:05:46:05 - 01:06:10:19 Speaker 2 And that filled me with so much of enthusiasm and acceleration and, and and also there was a knowing I remember like it felt like I had that moment, okay, this is what I was supposed to do. So for anybody do not think going down this path of creation, it starts by acquiring new knowledge. You cannot be where you are and think about creating something different. 01:06:10:19 - 01:06:31:05 Speaker 2 You have to explore. Put yourself in situations where you are getting new information, and that new information will then hopefully give you different choices like, I mean like it happened with me. Okay, I thought about okay, then if I want to do that, if I want to become that kind of a doctor, then I need to get this and this education. 01:06:31:07 - 01:06:54:15 Speaker 2 Then I learned that, then tried it with my patients, tried it on myself, experienced it, and then when we reached that point, then you become, I mean, I've become a different kind of a doctor now. And you can extrapolate this process for almost anything from sickness to health, from poverty to abundance to everything. The process remains the same. 01:06:54:15 - 01:07:20:20 Speaker 2 It's acquiring knowledge, thinking in new ways, making new choices, trying out new actions or new behaviors, then experiencing new things in life, and then seeing whether that truth of that, not of that information, whether that becomes true for us, if it becomes true for us, then it's called, then we are that I think that's that's, that's one way to go about it. 01:07:20:22 - 01:07:53:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. Well said in 1954, it was believed that breaking the four minute mile and running was impossible. It was a barrier that was impossible to the limitations of human, physical exertion. And when Roger Barron's, I think Roger Bannister, who was a medical student at that time, when he broke the four minute mile barrier, what you saw then, is it like it created a shift in the collective consciousness? 01:07:54:03 - 01:08:14:19 Speaker 1 And they call this the Bannister effect now because, it was not an immediate flood of runners. But within 46 days, the record was broken again. And then with 10 in 2 and a half years, ten runners had achieved the submitted, subfour minute milestone. And now where it is, is you see high school students be able to do that, right. 01:08:14:19 - 01:08:38:18 Speaker 1 Just so it becomes an idea, a belief that causes limitation. There's a ceiling. And then once we break through that, it changes in the collective. And that's what's important to note about evolution. And that's why I'm so concerned about the limitations of psychiatric disorders by calling them medical conditions or calling them diseases, or the genetic lines, the chemical imbalances. 01:08:38:18 - 01:09:03:06 Speaker 1 All what this does is it creates a consciousness and understanding that limits you and is going to create the disease in itself. So it's important for we as a culture, as a society, that we break through those lies and we communicate in new ways, and we bring that into the collective. Which brings me to the final question. You've been so kind to spend so much time with me today is that you developed a six month program called psychiatry 2.0. 01:09:03:07 - 01:09:16:15 Speaker 1 If you can walk us through it, like what happens in month one month to how do you take someone who's been told that they're chronic and incurable, and then you help them reclaim their life? 01:09:16:17 - 01:09:47:11 Speaker 2 So I start off by giving them information and showing them what others in my practice have done. I mean, you know, the week we have to let just like the Bannister effect, we have to create that. And I will say this. Roger that. I don't know if you saw this, NPR did an article, last week in the last week of January where they're talking about that potentially DSM diagnostic system is going to undergo a serious change, but is it going to be so you and I, via the glitch in the matrix. 01:09:47:11 - 01:10:13:14 Speaker 2 And there are many such glitches. So, so I think yes, there is there is that awakening. There is the rise in consciousness. And I think we are really living at a wonderful, wonderful time period where we get to witness and be part of this. But coming back to my program, the six months, it's a actually a systematic and sequential, approach to reclaiming health and vitality, both in the body as well as in the mind. 01:10:13:16 - 01:10:33:16 Speaker 2 In month one, that's the intake appointment. And that's where no matter where people are, I start to give them this information. I mean, I, I laid off not as a hypothesis but as my truth that all diseases have only three root causes die trauma and toxins. And then we see how that framework applies to the patient in front of me. 01:10:33:18 - 01:10:58:15 Speaker 2 Then I do bloodwork, a complete look at their internal chemistry, how their hormones are doing, the blood sugar, nutritional levels, any toxins in their system, inflammation, all of this. We take a look at it. Then I also do methylation gene analysis. So it's not about genetic like 40 genes. It's about the interaction between the gene and the environment. 01:10:58:17 - 01:11:25:09 Speaker 2 And certain genes don't work well in certain kinds of environments. So methylation genes do not work well in a toxic environment. And the value of that test is that we can enhance the environment so that the methylation genes can also work to their optimal capacity. So it's about restoring that internal intracellular physiological functions. So that's the gene test. 01:11:25:09 - 01:11:53:02 Speaker 2 Then I also look for the more common things mycotoxins more toxins and other there's another test that I like to do which is called the organic acid test, which really gives me an idea about intracellular physiology. Sometimes when the history indicates am I going to, you know, whether this is a spike protein issue. So we do we look at tests that can differentiate between vital spike protein like in long haul Covid versus vaccine spike protein. 01:11:53:04 - 01:12:16:14 Speaker 2 So there are tests now that from Germany there's a lab that can actually make that differentiation. And we have you know, you can do that test right here in the US. Other times that might be interested in looking at Lyme and other co-infections, but that is individualized. But at the core, I'd like to take a look at the intracellular physiology, mold exposure, genetic tests and inflammation and hormonal markers. 01:12:16:16 - 01:12:38:21 Speaker 2 And that gives me an idea as to how we can intervene. And intervention is going to be based on functional medicine and even better. But the focus, number one is on restoring gut health and healing the body, starting with supplements, but also medical food. You know, different types of foods are more easily digestible. I mean, to all your listeners, if you're having any chronic disease, you should not be eating salads. 01:12:38:23 - 01:13:00:09 Speaker 2 Salads require a healthy digestive system, and if you're any chronic disease indicates that your digestion has already taken the hit, and eating salads will exacerbate that a poor digestive process. So. So we make some little changes like that. And are you ready ups after the level of the energy. You know, we talked about the bunch of humble hamburgers and the what's up with the kafir. 01:13:00:11 - 01:13:25:11 Speaker 2 So when we manage to manipulate energy matter, we'll follow suit. When we balance energy matter balances. So that's the benefit of find with UPS and medicines. And then in month two I start off with the psychotherapy which is all geared towards self-empowerment and self-worth. So month one is all, you know what happened to you. You know, you know, we talk about what brought you to this point. 01:13:25:13 - 01:13:49:00 Speaker 2 But from month two I give different techniques, including meditation, self-awareness exercises to really get you to see that you are in charge and the buck starts and stops with you. No more victim stories. I mean, I'm here, you know, to handle when people need it, but it only happens between me and the patient, not with, you know, anybody else. 01:13:49:01 - 01:14:19:02 Speaker 2 And so that radical responsibility becomes a very important aspect that I teach slowly patients. And when the body's healthy, when your adrenals are once again able to manage stress, then doing these kinds of psychotherapeutic things also becomes easy. So that's why I don't start off with psychotherapy right away. And one month of diet change and supplements is enough for people to feel well in their body, well enough to do the the harder work of changing their mind and their behaviors and habits. 01:14:19:04 - 01:14:44:19 Speaker 2 That's that takes time. Month three and four. We reserve it for I the detox, which is the only detox that is based that uses fat as the medium because all of our toxins, whether generated by our own body or that we get from environment, I mean, all of the environmental toxins come from petroleum. They're all petrochemicals, cosmetics. We should be calling them Petro cosmetics. 01:14:44:21 - 01:15:06:18 Speaker 2 And because they're fat, they come from fat. They're fat soluble. Water detoxes, juice fast, don't work very well for them. So this fat based detox, where we are externally and internally saturating the body with the right kind of oils and fats and no, people don't put on weight with it. In fact, their cholesterol balances. Everything balances. So that we focus on that. 01:15:06:20 - 01:15:08:11 Speaker 2 It's called punch of karma. 01:15:08:13 - 01:15:14:21 Speaker 1 Can I ask you what foods that are prescribed for that fat detox. 01:15:14:23 - 01:15:44:09 Speaker 2 So for the fat detox, people are only eating what? It's a rice and lentil dish khichdi for about two weeks, but each day they're increasing the amount of clarified butter, cultured and clarified butter. So the I just knew it was a it's a short chain fatty acid. And the way it is described in Sanskrit is that the ghee molecules actually go in and out of cells, trapping the toxins and bringing it out and dumping it into the GI tract. 01:15:44:11 - 01:16:09:03 Speaker 2 Plus, we know the butyrate, which is the act of fatty acid in the butter and Ki, is the preferred fuel for intestinal cells. It is. It actually turns off cancer genes in, in the intestines. So and so we do ghee enemas. So if for colon cancer or untreated colitis ghee enemas work really really well because again it turns off the cancer genes. 01:16:09:05 - 01:16:40:12 Speaker 2 So there's a lot of benefit from doing these some of these practices. And then most of my patients, if they're not on psychiatric medications, they experience anywhere between 70 to 90% improvement in their overall health, mind and body health by month four and month five. And six. I reserve that to teach them the fundamentals of health creation, health maintenance and sustenance so that they truly become independent of any medical industrial complex, including, you know, including me. 01:16:40:12 - 01:17:10:02 Speaker 2 I mean, I'm available when people need me. But my philosophy, I mean, my intention when I started my practice was to not make it a revolving door so that that health education. How do you attend to yourself? What are some of the daily practices, seasonal practices that you can incorporate and how to take care of yourself and really use all of the marvels of modern medicine only for when you need it? 01:17:10:04 - 01:17:38:20 Speaker 2 There is a role for modern medicine surgeries, acute interventions, yes, only when you need. But prevention only happens with lifestyle and with how we live our life. So that's what we focus on. For those that are on psychiatric medications, they then, you know, when when they're physiologically ready and they're psychologically ready. That's when I start off the taper and I do the hyperbolic tapering very, very slow taper and and different patients. 01:17:38:20 - 01:18:13:15 Speaker 2 I mean, what I found in the with the tapering process is that when a person is truly feeling empowered, the taper process calls very smoothly. But if they're afraid, if they're feeling disempowered for whatever their their story is, if it's a disempowering story, then they tend to struggle with the taper process. So I wait to get them out of that state of disempowerment where they feel that they're once again in charge, because that again, you know, so that's when I do talk to them about, you know, we create our own destiny, our thoughts create on the end. 01:18:13:17 - 01:18:35:01 Speaker 2 So those kinds of conversations do come up. And, I, I try to get people to begin to recognize how that is happening in their own lives. Like, I mean, so many like when we pay attention, when we pay attention with this framework that, okay, my thoughts are creating my reality, you'll be surprised how many little things actually happen. 01:18:35:03 - 01:18:41:06 Speaker 1 So a great where can people find you? 01:18:41:08 - 01:19:12:13 Speaker 2 So my website is Trilogy health.com. My office phone number is (262) 955-6600. And, on Instagram and social media, it's chronology, health, YouTube. I've actually documented a lot of patient, testimonials on YouTube so people can see exactly what the processes and, and I started doing that one because as I started in 2019, when I got fired from two positions that I had because, I mean, I was really afraid for my license. 01:19:12:13 - 01:19:30:22 Speaker 2 And, I realized that I needed to create some sort of evidence base to show people if I get dragged to court. But then I realized that it was actually it was actually inspirational for other patients to see that somebody else can do it in my same condition. Then I can also do it. 01:19:31:00 - 01:19:58:23 Speaker 1 So this has been an enlightening conversation. I could record so many more podcasts in more depth on some of the specific content of today and will in time. And so I hope that you can join me in the future. But I'm extremely lucky. Yeah, extremely grateful for your time, doctor. Aruna. Nami, I want to thank you for a radically genuine conversation. 01:19:59:00 - 01:20:19:05 Speaker 2 Thank you Roger. My pleasure. And I will say this, I've actually been more I mean, I tend to because I, you know, I've been on other podcasts and I tend to read all the information FAQ, but your questions actually made me pause and, slow down. And, I've really enjoyed this because at different side of me care more. 01:20:19:05 - 01:20:31:12 Speaker 2 But otherwise my main focus is educate that, hey, there's a better way that, you know, I'm so focused on the education piece, but today, yeah, it was a radically genuine experience for me. Thank you for that. 01:20:31:14 - 01:20:32:00 Speaker 1 Thank you.