Latest / Icons of DC Area Real Estate / Len Forkas: Everest, HopeCam and Business Insights

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Len Forkas: Everest, HopeCam and Business Insights · Icons of DC Area Real Estate

• 0:09
  Speaker B: Hi, I'm John Coe and welcome to icons of D.C. area real estate, a one on one interview show featuring the backgrounds, career trajectories and insights of the top luminaries in the Washington D.C. area Real estate market. The purpose of the show was to explore their journeys, how they got started, the pivotal moments that shaped their careers, and the lessons they've learned along the way. We also dive into their current work, industry trends, and some fascinating behind the scenes stories that bring unique perspective to our industry. Commercial Real Estate before we dive into today's conversation, I'd like to share some exciting news. The icons of D.C. area Real estate Podcast is now part of the Iconic Journey in cre, a nonprofit dedicated to supporting professionals at every stage of their real estate careers. With our new website, www.ijcre.org, we're expanding opportunities for everyone in the industry. If you're a student or new to the industry, I encourage you to join the Iconic Journey and CRE community, an exclusive space for learning, mentorship and networking. If you're an early to mid career professional navigating career transitions, our career coaching curriculum provides structured guidance to help you move forward with confidence. If you're an experienced professional looking to give back to the industry, I invite you to consider sponsoring or donating to the Iconic Journey and CRE nonprofit to help foster the next generation of commercial real estate leaders. And for everyone, the best way to stay connected is to subscribe to this podcast, whether directly or on Apple or Spotify so you don't miss an episode. The podcast has been delivering twice monthly episodes since August 2019 and I'm thrilled to continue these conversations under the nonprofit umbrella. Expanding our Reach and Impact. To learn more about our community, career coaching or sponsorship opportunities, please visit our new website, www.ijcre.org. thank you for being part of this journey. And now let's get started with today's guest. Welcome to another episode of Icons of DCRE Real Estate. Today we are incredibly honored to have a returning guest who truly embodies the spirit of challenge, perseverance and giving back. Len Forkas. In his previous interview with me, Len shared his successful Race Across America ventures and initial forays into mountain climbing. Today, we're thrilled to discuss his latest monumental achievement, successfully summiting Mount Everest. This feat not only completes his quest to conquer the seven summits, but also makes him the fifth oldest person in the world to achieve this incredible milestone. Len reveals this was unfinished business after a life threatening attempt in 2023. He candidly shares how his big failure prompted a thorough deconstruction of every decision, leading to significant changes in his preparation, including tailored training, utilizing hypoxic sleep environments, and selecting a better guide beyond the personal achievement, Len used his Everest expedition as a powerful platform to share the stories of children battling cancer through his charity Hope Cam. He carried laminated cards with pictures and letters from these children reading their stories for inspiration during his arduous climb. We also pivot to Hope Cam, exploring how the organization has adapted to significant increase in demand for its services, largely due to the heightened recognition of loneliness following COVID 19, HopeCam has tripled its hospital partnerships and prioritizes reaching underserved families. Glenn discusses their unique philanthropy model, viewing sponsors and donors as investors in the tangible mental and emotional well being outcomes HopeCam creates for these four children. Furthermore, Len sheds light on the evolution of his company Milestone Towers, which recently rebranded to better reflect its core business as a real estate asset in the digital infrastructure world. He shares insights into their focus on strategic partnerships in difficult to access locations and discusses the current impact of 5G and AI on the industry, with AI primarily enhancing internal efficiencies rather than directly driving network demand. Prepare for an inspirational and insightful conversation that transcends business and extreme sports, delving into the human spirit's capacity for resilience and impact, embodying Len's core leadership principles of trust, humility and determination. Without further ado, here's Len Forkas. So Len Forkas, welcome to Icons of DT Area Real Estate. Thanks for joining me today.
• 6:02
  Speaker A: Fantastic. Great to be here John.
• 6:04
  Speaker B: So in your previous interview with me, you mentioned mountain climbing as a new challenge. After your successful Race Across America ventures particular climb of Mount Vinson in Antarctica, you've now successfully summited Mount Everest, completing the seven Summits and becoming the fifth oldest person in the world to achieve this incredible feat. How does this achievement feel and what was different about this Everest expedition compared to your previous attempts in other climbs?
• 6:34
  Speaker A: Well, first of all, thanks John for inviting me back and just to kind of give you a little bit of update on the things that we been doing since we last did the podcast. But no, I think Everest was unfinished business for me. I attempted to Summit it in 2023 and didn't succeed. So. So it was very, very validating to be able to go back having learned. And of course, as you know we every time I climb or run a marathon or do, you know, kind of big expeditions or big races, I always try to tell the stories of children with cancer. The Hope Cam cherries of course. So The Everest was a terrific platform to be able to share the stories of over 25 children that were all battling cancer. And it was so much fun because I brought with me laminated cards of the pictures of these kids, and we also matched them with our sponsors. And then on the back of the card, the children or their parents would write me a letter. And so before I was going for particular clients climb, where we're moving up toward base camp or doing a rotation to train and adapt to elevation, I would read these stories and then film dedications to them. So it was really inspiring to bring those kids along with me and celebrate their fearlessness.
• 7:56
  Speaker B: Well, you actually recorded a brief clip while you were at the base camp for me as well and for the podcast, and I really appreciate that. That was great. Your voice was a little raspy when you did that though, so I'm guessing you were struggling from the height at that point.
• 8:10
  Speaker A: What happened was I had developed what's called Kumbu cough. The Kumbu icefall is the first section you have to get through. It's really dangerous, but they call it Kumbu cough because you get it when you breathe really cold air. And so what it does is it damages the inside lining of your trachea. And so therefore you don't have the. The health to breathe. And so I only coughed when I talked. So whenever I would videotape a testimonial, I would. That's when I would cough. Normally I wouldn't be coughing, but yeah, unfortunately I had that and I had to deal with that. So I sounded worse than I felt. But. But it was just one of those. It's one of those challenges and a lot of people get it. So I had to deal with it.
• 8:55
  Speaker B: Your 2023 Everest attempt was cut short due to a life threatening pulmonary complications requiring an airlift. You mentioned that failure is a great teacher. Could you elaborate on the specific lessons you Learned from that 2023 expedition and how they directly inform your preparation, training, and decision making for your successful climb this year?
• 9:17
  Speaker A: Well, thanks for bringing it up because when you fail and you feel big, I was gone for five weeks. I came down in a helicopter. And it's so rare that when we succeed at something, we actually focus and really break apart. Why we were successful, most of the time we just close a great deal or we complete a big transaction and we just, you know, pat ourselves in the back. Right. Wow. You know, we did really well. But when you fail and you fail miserably, where it's expensive and time consuming, you look at every decision that you made, leaning going into that and you deconstruct. You look at everything that caused you to not be successful. And it haunted me for a long time. But I made a decision that I was going to learn from it. And look at every decision I made, whether it was my training or whether it was my itinerary or the guide that I selected and so forth and really put it under a microscope and then talk to other people and get other people's advice, people had been successful and then start over again and rebuild. And I did that almost over a year ago. I hired a coach who wrote workouts for me every single day. I had an itinerary of climbs that I wanted to do to prepare. I had to work on my form. And you think, okay, you're just climbing a mountain, right? How is form involved? Well, go climb Cotop Paxi or Chimbrazo in Ecuador. And really good guide who says you're wasting energy and you can be more efficient if you climb this way. So I was constantly searching for ways to improve. And for example, I did a lot of weightlifting and I was carrying heavy packs up 3,000ft every Saturday or Sunday on a local hill, up and down, up and down. And so I had to be comfortable lifting up with my, with one arm, a 50 pound backpack and then hauling it when I was in the gym. I joined Lifetime Fitness, right, because they had a climbing wall, they had all the racks that I needed, squats and deadlifts and strict press and weighted pull ups, but they also had a climbing wall. And I learned how to use all the tools that I would need on the climbing wall. And so I practiced with heavy gloves in, you know, in the middle of October climbing with these big three layer mittens, using the tools with the gear I would be using on the summit. So I, I effectively pre stressed all of the pieces that I would need to have competency. So I had the dexterity to be able to open and close carabiners with these heavy, heavy gloves from October on. And so those are some of the things I was like on the stair machine in the winter and I couldn't go out to the mountain. I would wear my three layer boots and a 50 pound pack. And I'm here I am, I've got boots up to my knees in my shorts, you know, schmitzing, sweating on the, on the 3,000 vertical feet on the stair machine with a 50 pound pack. I looked like a, I looked like, who's this? Who's this guy? Yeah, I Didn't care because I was, I was there to replicate all the pieces that would give me the ability to be successful. And then the other thing was I found a better guide. Yeah, the guide that I selected in 2023 was very capable, but he wasn't really matched well for a 65 year old guy doing the climb. So I found an excellent guide, Ryan Waters, who led a blind person to the summit in 2023. And I thought, this is the guy I want. Wow. So it was a lot of it was people you pick, it was love. Eliminating all the risks that I could control being physically prepared as well as I could being on the mountain. I climbed Carson's pyramid in Indonesia, I climbed Kosciusko in Australia, I climbed Mount Washington in February in New Hampshire and did two volcanoes in Ecuador. So again, using my gear, using the systems and really practicing as much cycling before I left.
• 13:34
  Speaker B: Well, you had done Mount Vinson, which certainly was a difficult climb in adverse circumstances, plus the other five other mountains around the. So it's not like mountain climbing was brand new to you, but apparently this effort is that much. It's like the next level, right? Pretty much, yeah.
• 13:53
  Speaker A: Well, Vincent was really kind of got me focused on climbing. I climbed Kilimanjaro with my son Matt when he was in college and it was a great experience, just the two of us, but I really didn't have any love for that. But when I got invited by a guy named Chris Warner, who used to own a company called Earth Treks, he was one of the most successful entrepreneurs in climbing. He opened six gyms. Wow. And he just finished. Two years ago, he finished all eight, 14, 8,000 meter peaks. He became the second American to do that at the age of 59. But anyways, Chris invited me to climb Vincent.
• 14:29
  Speaker B: Huh.
• 14:30
  Speaker A: And after I said, yes, I'll do it, I asked them, why on earth would you ask a guy like me to climb ice, climb on a rope line in a glacier, a guy who's never walked on a glacier. And he said, well, Forkus, he said three things. Number one, you got a good positive attitude and you need people like that. So that's important. Number two is you're an endurance athlete. And so we know you're in shape and you can hold your, hold your own and you can carry, you can carry more weight than everybody else, so you'll be a mule. And number three is the skills. Well, we can teach you the skills. We can't teach you attitude, but we can definitely teach you the skills. And so that's When I said I'm in. And so I had to learn how to be really uncomfortable doing a. A sport that I really didn't know much about. And I had to pay what I call the stupid tax because I made a lot of mistakes. When I climbed Vincent, I dropped my water ball. Went water bottle one time and lost it. Those things don't come back when you drop them. You have to protect against frostbite. I got frostbitten in Denali. I learned a lesson there several years ago. Almost lost my finger, my index finger. So when you put yourself out there in a way that you really don't know the outcome and you have to be vulnerable and be willing as a, as an, you know, I'm an old guy, Right. I got to be willing to be embarrassed because I know I'm going to make mistakes. But I think that having a little bit of fearlessness about and being humble about exposing yourself to things that you don't really know much about, but you're going to. You want to learn, I guess, when you grow. And that, to me, was what was so exciting about climbing, was it was an opportunity for me to learn a new skill, meet new people, join a new tribe, and become competent. It's something that very few people get to do.
• 16:24
  Speaker B: Very few, putting it mildly, probably less than a thousand people or so have done what you've done, I'm guessing, in world history. So it's phenomenal. You've emphasized the importance of training, specifically, particularly for climbing, but by shifting away from cycling and running to focus on heavy pack carries, vertical training, and hypoxic sleep environments. How crucial was this tailored training approach to your EVA success? You just talked a little bit about that. And what advice would you give to aspiring high altitude climbers based on your experience?
• 17:02
  Speaker A: Well, a couple things. One is it was very hard because I have a lot of friends that I bike with. Right. And I didn't bike much in the last 12 months. Right. I mean, I wanted to go out and ride a hundred miles with them on the weekends. And I'm either in the gym or I'm climbing in some. The Appalachian Trail heavy pack. So a lot of it was solitary. So that was hard. I wanted it. I missed it. I missed running. I missed being with my friends. Yeah. And I've got this tailored schedule that I paid into with a coach to stick to. So I had to really set aside what I like to do to get the skills and the training and the ability. So that was number one. The second was the hypoxic Sleep. So there's a machine made by a company called Hypoxico, and effectively, it's a generator that has a hose that connects to a space. Well, in this instance, it could be a tent, or it can be. Effectively. It looks like a big laundry basket, and it's, like 3ft long and 2ft wide and 3ft high, and it fits over your pillow, and the hose connects to it. And then your head above your chest, your head's inside this chamber. Right. This is the square rectangle. By the way, my wife is sleeping next to me, so she's just laughing. She's laughing at me. Right. But effectively, I would sleep every night for eight hours in this space. And then the. The compressor reduces the amount of oxygen in that. In that rectangle. Right. That cube. And so you can dial in the altitude of what the density of the air would be. So you can replicate 10,000ft, 15,000ft, 20,000ft. And so I knew, based on the interviews that I'd had with other athletes that had succeeded at climbing these heights, is I needed to spend 400 hours before I left 12th in that environment. So on February 1st, I started at 5,000ft, and I worked my way up to 20,000ft over the course of six weeks, every single night, eight hours a night, breathing thin air to adapt, so my body would adapt to the altitude when I arrived in the Himalayas. And it worked.
• 19:18
  Speaker B: You didn't do that in 23.
• 19:21
  Speaker A: No, no.
• 19:22
  Speaker B: And so that made a difference.
• 19:23
  Speaker A: Made a difference, yeah. I had had experience with that machine before when I was climbing Aconcagua, and I relied on it, and it didn't. I didn't succeed in Ekonkagua, the first time in South America, so I wasn't big on hypoxic sleep. But then I talked to more people, and I learned that it really is something, if you're disciplined, that can really help you. And it did.
• 19:45
  Speaker B: Your philosophy highlights that it's not the summit, it's the process and the entire experience that's memorable. Now that you've completed the seven Summits, how has this long journey, especially the hard things you've pushed yourself to do, reframed your view of what's possible for.
• 20:04
  Speaker A: You and your outlook on life? Well, I think there's something wrong with me when I get to the summit of these mountains, because you see videos of people and they're crying, and they say, I've finally reached this in my lifelong journey, and I'm so overcome, and I don't feel any of that. I really don't when I'm at the summit, I'm there for a reason. I'm there to shoot a video of the child that I'm honoring that day, thank my team, and get the hell down. Because I've learned, too, that in many of the places that I've climbed, particularly the seven summits, a lot of them are really precarious. And in Everest, more people get hurt or don't come home on the way down, on the way up, right? And so. So for me, and plus, on the summit of Everest, it wasn't. It was really white out. I couldn't see much. Windy and cold. And so we didn't spend a whole lot of time. But I think when I look back at all the different things I've tried and I've succeeded or not succeeded at, I've always. What I really relish the most is the people. The people you climb with, the people that support you, like the Sherpa communities and the guides and the porters that haul things up and down the mountain, the men that cook for you and prepare your meals, help you set up your tents, or when I did Denali, it's the other guys and the other people I'm meeting. So most of the time when I would climb, only a couple times I climbed with someone I knew. Most of the time I would just go with the right outfit or. And someone I trusted, and then they would put me on a team. So to me, there's a little bit of randomness associated with how you're going to spend the next between two to six weeks. But to me, that's really what resonates the most, is the relationships. And I think it comes also from common suffering because it's not easy to spend six weeks in a tent, in a sleeping bag, and at high altitude with no appetite and moving up and down, you know, to train and being in a very dangerous place. But it's always for me that what I really. When I look back and I think about, I really relish. It's the. It's the whole experience of where you are. You're in this indescribable environment of pure nature with no human footprint except what's being carried there and. And how you work with each other to help. Help each other be successful, which everyone does.
• 22:32
  Speaker B: That's phenomenal. You spoke about the profound impact of isolation on your son Matt during his cancer treatment and how that experience, along with your own extreme adventures, became therapy and cleansing for you. How do these challenging personal experiences reinforce your understanding of mental health? And resilience, both for yourself and for the children. Hope Gam serves well.
• 22:58
  Speaker A: A couple things I think first off, for those of your listeners that may not know what HopeCam is, it's a charity I started when Matt was 9 years old and he was diagnosed with leukemia and couldn't go back to school. And I was able to convince Fairfax schools to let me put a webcam in his classroom before any Zoom or Skype or FaceTime had ever been invented. And I saw back then how uplifting it was for him to not feel alone. And obviously we've all lived through what it feels like to be isolated. But in 2002, everyone was focused on his physical health, they were focused on his education, but no one was focusing on his depression, his loneliness from being isolated. And so this little connection that I was able to make with this classroom using Net meeting from Microsoft back in the day made such a difference for him. And I realized when he went back to school in the fall, he still had a couple years of treatment ago, that every one of his classmates welcomed him back when he went into the fourth grade because they saw what he went through. And so that was where I kind of had this aha moment that we really discovered something. And so for the last 20 plus years, we've helped almost 6,000 kids. And so for me, sharing the stories of these children, when I climb or run or whatever, it's really valuable because they inspire me. If I think I'm really cold or I'm having a really rough day going up the litzy face on a 45, 50% angle, I think of these kids and come on, I mean these kids are getting back to, back to back radiation or chemotherapy or their temperatures spike. It's just horrible what they go through. So I, I, that just, it grounds you like that.
• 24:50
  Speaker B: Sure.
• 24:50
  Speaker A: If you're having a rough day and, and then also they would write me letters and they would say, you know, you can do this or if you see a snow leopard, that's my favorite animal. So they make you laugh and they make you cry. And so to me it was very inspiring to know that I had committed to these kids that I was going to try this and I was going to share transparently what I was going through, but also to let the world see their story. And, and let's face it, Everest is a great platform to do that. Yeah.
• 25:19
  Speaker B: You mentioned meeting a 77 year old Israeli mountaineer in Kamchi Bazaar who offered advice and pointers. How important are these interactions and sharing community among endurance athletes and Mountaineers for personal growth and learning, especially when undertaking extreme challenges.
• 25:43
  Speaker A: Everyone that has had an experience that you haven't had is a source of risk reduction. But you have to have the humility to ask and you have to be vulnerable and say, what do you think about my plan? Or what do you think about my strategy? And so you have to be open, you have to be willing to listen. And I think all of us know that in our careers that we're humble and we talk to our peers or we talk to people that we respect, they're going to tell things, they're going to share with us the things even though we may compete with each other, they're still going to share with you things that the trap doors you don't want to fall in. And I think having that humility and having that ability to be willing to ask other people for help, I think is such a critical life mindset. And I've had it my whole life. There's never a time where I think I know more than anyone else or I feel like I've got this. And so when I did Race Across America, for example, back in 2012, I interviewed over a dozen people that had done it. Yeah. And because back then, only a third of the people try it, make it for the first time. And I asked them, you know, what is it? What do I need to know? And it's amazing what people will tell you if you ask them. People give you phenomenal advice. And back then they told me it was my team. You need to have a solid team of people that trusted each other, because teams fracture, especially when you're doing all the work on the cycling and they have to support you. So picking the right people was pivotal in being successful in Race Across America. So to me, I think it's all about having the humility to ask for advice and listen to it and then take it.
• 27:22
  Speaker B: Well, you being able to do superhuman things both on the bicycle and the mountain, I mean, it's. This is pretty amazing to me. The Explorers Grand Slam is now within reach with only the North Pole left after completing the South Pole ski expedition. How does the nature of unsupported polar treks compared to high altitude mountaineering in terms of physical and mental demands and what unique systems and teamwork were critical to your South Pole success?
• 27:55
  Speaker A: Well, thank you for bringing that up because Ryan Waters, who is my guide for Everest, I had met him training for the North Pole. Right. And then I joined him in the South Pole in January of 2024. And so. So again, the People you meet and people you want to surround yourself.
• 28:12
  Speaker B: Sure.
• 28:12
  Speaker A: But what I learned about the South Pole, training for the North Pole and doing the South Pole was it's all about discipline and systems. And you have to have systems that you follow that are very regular and predictable. Like for example, when you're dragging a sled, 60 pound sled and a harness across the polar plateau on cross country skis with your goggles, well, you stop every hour to take a refreshment break, but you have to put on a heavy jacket immediately. You have to make sure you don't spill any water on your, your extremities. You have to have all your gear laid out because we only stopped for 10 minutes and there were 10, there were, there were 10 of us and nobody wants to be the last guy to move. So you have, you're accountable to the team. And so all these, when you, when you set up your tent, there's a way to do that quickly because you don't have much time to set up your tent. It's 40 below zero. And you have to get your gear inside the tent and you have to know, prepare and dry out your clothing. So, so I learned from the South Pole expedition how to be meticulous about, about doing this, following the systems that allow you to not get frostbite, not to get exposed, how to stay healthy and how to be a resource to the rest of your team. I don't think I've talked much about this, but after I summited on Everest, as I was descending toward the Balcony, I'm on a very narrow ridge line. The ridge is only 18 inches and the far on the right side was a 4,000 foot drop. Oh my God. And you're connected to a rope line, so you're always connected, you're always connected to the rope line. And on the left is very, very soft snow. So as I'm descending down, heading to the Balcony, which is the halfway point, I couldn't see the trail and I didn't know why.
• 30:05
  Speaker B: Oh my God.
• 30:06
  Speaker A: And I stepped to the left and I fell into cravats and I'm being held by the harness. The systems I talked about where you're always clipping in two safety lines and every time the rope would transition, you'd have to clip out and clip in. So you had to lock your carabiners and it's freezing cold, it's windy and you got these heavy gloves. But we talk about the North Pole, right, and the South Pole and the systems. Well, I did all the things I was supposed to do. My harness was attached properly, was cinched up tight. So I'm dangling from my rope line looking down over this 70 foot abyss. And. And then I realized I'm out of air because you only have a third of the oxygen that your brain needs to actually function. And, and so I slowly turned around and Nima, who's my Sherpa guide, was behind me. And I knew I was out of air, so I pointed to my tank and I did, I did like a, you know, across my throat, saying it was dead. And he acknowledged it. And then he moved his hands to show me how to roll out of the crevasse. So he pulled me as I was rolling. He pulled me out of the crevasse. Then he stepped. Cal, caught up with me, changed my oxygen tank, and I was good. Oh, my God. But those systems that I learned in the South Pole about being meticulous, about knowing what to do, every single transition point, that was what kept my carabiners sealed tight and my lines connected. So the systems worked. And all the safety systems I had with my harness and the rope line, it worked. I didn't fall into the crevasse, which would have been the end of me because it's a big drop at 27,000ft with no air. That would not have been a good outcome. So I think I'm borrowing from the experience I had in the South Pole and the training I did for the North Pole. But I think those are all, all those things are very relatable, and I think they're also translated. They're relatable in business too. As we know, in our, in our companies and organizations, we have to have systems, we have to have procedures, we have to have policies, we have to have behaviors that are replicable because people leave and you don't want to lose that. You don't have to start creating systems. So in our businesses, we have to do the same thing and make sure everyone understands that there are consequences when you don't lock your carabiner. There's consequences when you don't file the, you know, the. You don't record an easement. Sure.
• 32:31
  Speaker B: Well, I mean, you're, you're at such an edge on everything that you're doing that preparation is beyond critical. I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's life or death, basically. So there are very few people that are willing to take that kind of risk in business or life. But you're one of the few that do. And hopefully you'll share that in Another book. I know you've written two already and I mean what you've just said would have been, is a chapter in itself. Almost. Hopefully you will do that because this is quite amazing. So now I want to pivot to.
• 33:10
  Speaker A: HopeCam a little bit more.
• 33:12
  Speaker B: Since your previous interview, HopeCam has been a significant increase in demand for its services, doubling applications to nearly 1,000 children annually, largely due to a heightened recognition of loneliness. Following COVID 19 how has hopecam adapted to this increased need and evolved its strategies to reach and support more children and families across the country?
• 33:40
  Speaker A: Well, thank you for featuring HopeCam in the conversation because it's really close to me, obviously, of course. But I think that after Covid, we all acknowledged in first term basis what loneliness is about. And so our families have a much heightened sense of how important their child's mental health is during treatment. So that's driven a lot of our growth. Also, we've tripled the number of hospitals that we connect with because our staff are very, very success, very good people. And Sarah, who's one of our staff members, is on the board of the social workers for all the all throughout the country in hospitals for oncology social workers. So the word has spread and people have been able to recognize that we can help these kids. 15,000 kids a year get cancer. We're helping roughly now a thousand. So we're still just scratching the surface. But the most challenging part for us has been matching the resources with the geography because we write 500 grants a year and it comprises 60% of our budget from grants. But there's different alignments. We have a lot of kids in places. 70% of the kids we serve are poor as Title 1 kids. And so a lot of times the grants that we apply for are restricted to certain geographies. So for example, if we get a grant in California, they want to support California kids. So we've got kids in Louisiana. We don't have any grant writing. We can't find any grants in Louisiana. We have a lot of kids from places where the grants don't align. So the resources that we raise for the Everest trip, for example, are non. They're actually totally discretionary. So those really fill the holes in our budget for the kids that don't have, we don't have the grant facilities to be able to apply for. And it's been really challenging writing grants now. It's because it's a very different world right now that we live in and it's been harder for foundations to grow. So we're constantly Looking for new resources of folks that want to support us and where our outcomes align. And so. But I think in many respects, no matter how much technology is out there, somebody's got to make it happen in the classroom. It's still people know how to use zoom, but doesn't mean that they're incentivized to do it quickly. So we are the voice for these families who can't really advocate for themselves when they're going through treatment. Sure. So we're the accelerant. We create a sense of urgency around seeing that these children have the resources, have the technology. It costs them nothing. And they can connect with their friends quickly because we advocate for them.
• 36:16
  Speaker B: That's great. You've expanded Hope Camp's partnerships from approximately 50 hospitals to 180 hospitals, relationships across the country. What were the key factors in forging these extensive partnerships, especially with major institutions like St. Jude Children's Research Hospital? And how do hospital social workers act as crucial gatekeepers in reaching children?
• 36:43
  Speaker A: Well, that is our. The social workers in the hospitals are the gatekeepers, and they're the ones that see the children when they come in, when they're inducted, and see them regularly along with the child life specialists that support them. And so I think the problem is that most of the families are overwhelmed when they have a cancer diagnosis. And so they're trying to sort through a new trajectory of their life. And so the mental health doesn't pop up first. It's the physical health first. And so once they stabilize that, then the mental health comes. And so that's where we really need those social workers to remind the families that, hey, don't forget we have an organization that can support your child cog mentally as well, to fight isolation. So I think that story is being heard more clearly now after Covid because people see the impact of what happens to children when they don't socialize. We're seeing that today. So I think that's driven some of our growth. But ultimately, it's making sure that the families that don't have the resources, which are the majority of our families, these families don't have Internet, so we're giving them hotspots and we're giving them Chromebooks. Those school systems can't afford Chromebooks, so we're really filling the most important niche where the need is the highest.
• 38:05
  Speaker B: That's great. A significant majority of Hope Camp children attend Title 1 schools, and many lack home Internet service access, as you just said. How does HomeCam. HomeCam prioritize reaching these underserved families? And what challenges does the organization overcome to provide them with the necessary technology and Internet connectivity?
• 38:28
  Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's. It's the. It's. The reason. It's the money, John. Yeah. Is to pay for it, because we got the demand.
• 38:35
  Speaker B: Right.
• 38:35
  Speaker A: And so we just have to do a lot with a little. And so we never want to have to say no to a child.
• 38:40
  Speaker B: Right.
• 38:41
  Speaker A: And so far, we haven't had to. But for us, it's constantly finding new sources of support and finding that alignment. So right now, we have enough of the resources to continue operating. We've raised $860,000 as a result of Everest. That's a nice buffer, but it's really not sustainable. There's only so many more things I can physically do, although I'll keep pushing. But the point is that it's really developing stronger relationships in the places where we have the most kids, but not the money. So we just have to continue to spread the word. And so this podcast, for example, shares the credibility of what we do. We have a partnership with Livestrong. We just published a book with them called My Special Friend that takes the journey of a child who's in a classroom and how they deal with their friend being sick. So that partnership, we've got great partnerships with Northwestern Mutual Life, with the Lombardi Foundation.
• 39:39
  Speaker B: That's great.
• 39:39
  Speaker A: With Alvano, many others. And so for us, it's a matter of growing the resources with the foundations as we grow, and that's the hardest part. So we just have to continue to beat the drum, tell the stories, and find people that want to invest in the outcomes we create.
• 40:01
  Speaker B: Do you have any. I didn't put this in the question list, but do you have any stories of former clients or, you know, patients that have come out, done really well in their careers, and look back and say, you know, Hope Cam was a huge benefit to me, that kind of thing.
• 40:18
  Speaker A: Well, I'll give you an example. We just had a board meeting last week, and Dina Soto joined our board. Five years ago, her son Lucas went through a bone marrow transplant. He was a hockey player from Bishop Ireton High School.
• 40:29
  Speaker B: Oh, sure.
• 40:30
  Speaker A: And so we connected him, and now he's at Chichen College in Florida, and he heard about a kid going through cancer that was a hockey player, and so he connected him to the Lightning, and he went to the Florida Lightning and said, we got to connect you with this young man who's fighting cancer. And so he. He engineered, effectively, an event at one of the hockey games.
• 40:58
  Speaker B: Oh, that's great.
• 40:58
  Speaker A: Where they honored him. That's great. And now he skates with them while he's going through treatment and practice. And so here's a young man who survived and saw the power of reaching out to others and the empathy and the. And the willingness to give back. And so how great is that, that we have these young. These young people who have survived cancer that are out making a change in the world and helping other people taking the initiative, navigate through.
• 41:24
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's great.
• 41:25
  Speaker A: I was. I was. I was. I was interviewed on a podcast recently, and they asked me the. No, actually, it wasn't a podcast. It was. Good Morning Washington. Yeah. The interviewer asked me, what message do you have to children with cancer about your experience?
• 41:40
  Speaker B: Sure.
• 41:40
  Speaker A: In Everest. And, you know, my son Matt joined me on the. The climb to base Camp, and I said, just look, take a look at my son. There's your answer. Here's a young man who's 33 years old, and he survived it, and he's living his life, and he went to base camp with me, and he helped tell these stories. So if you're a parent and you're going through cancer, look at these children that have survived and look at what they've accomplished, and that can be your child and paint that picture for yourself. That's the goal line, is to have a son like Matt.
• 42:17
  Speaker B: That's great.
• 42:18
  Speaker A: Or a son like Lucas.
• 42:19
  Speaker B: Sure.
• 42:20
  Speaker A: That's out there giving back to the community.
• 42:21
  Speaker B: Absolutely. You set a goal to raise 1 million through your Everest expedition to connect 5,000 more children with over 500,000 already raised. And you just said 800,000, I think, earlier. How do you view your sponsors and donors as investors in the outcomes HopeCamp creates? And what specific outcomes are most resonant with them?
• 42:45
  Speaker A: Well, the first thing I'm doing with a lot of the folks that supported me locally here is I'm giving lunchtime talks about the Everest expedition to share with them how it all transpired and so forth. So to me, it's really fun, and I build in leadership lessons in the talk. But I think really the old model of philanthropy is, hey, please give money and thank you. And that's broken. I mean, that's really. That's the United Way. When we were kids, the thermometer. Right. The whole idea is fill the thermometer.
• 43:14
  Speaker B: That's.
• 43:15
  Speaker A: That's in the past. That's not part of what anyone does now. What we do now is we say, look, we're here to focus on the mental health of these young children and give them a Fighting chance so that they are not lonely because your body produces oxytocin when you're happy, and that helps fight the disease. But more importantly is if you would like to invest in the type of outcomes that we create by changing the mental and cognitive trajectory, emotional trajectory of these children going through the crappiest time in their life, if that outcome warms a part of your heart and it aligns with the change in the world that you want to create, then this is not, please give us money. Thank you. This is, we're investors, you're an investor, and we're just like in a business. If you're my investor, I deliver a return to you, and the return has to resonate with you. And so the return that we give back to our investors is the stories of these kids and how their lives were changed. As a result of your investment in our organization and as a fiduciary to your investment, we are going to create the best outcome with the least amount of resources. So we have an obligation to make sure that we use your resources wisely and we create the most impact we can with the resources we have. That's the relationship that we have with people that want to provide support to us, is that we have an obligation to share these stories with you, to show you where those resources were invested. And that, to me, is what it's about. And that's philanthropy, and also it's nonprofit, and it's creating these experiences and sharing these stories. And that's what I had so much fun doing when I was climbing.
• 44:56
  Speaker B: Well, it's an emotional thing to me. The return on investment is really the experiences that you're sharing and the emotional impact and investment that you're making in that. The money is one thing, but the emotional part of it and the return that you get how feeling, you know, investing money to help others, I mean, that's the bottom line right there.
• 45:21
  Speaker A: Well, we're wired that way, and that's why our species survive, of course, because we. We care about empathy. We care about helping others and, and lifting others up. And so I think that's. That's core to our being. But the other thing I do too, as you know, John, is with the books that I write, I also develop leadership talks. And I find I search for the leadership lessons in these experiences and translate them in. In a very indelible place. So when I'm talking to you about falling into a crevasse, I want you to feel like you were there with me, dangling from my rope while my guide pulled me Out. And the reason that I didn't fall was because of the systems, because of the practice, because of the training, because I picked the right guy. So I'm trying to really translate in business terms why the preparation works, why the systems are important, why having trust in your team is important, why all these elements, all these experiences I have on the mountain or on a bike or running races, whatever, they all translate to business, and they all translate to leadership, and they all translate into how we treat people and who we pick and how we go about trying to create the economic outcomes.
• 46:34
  Speaker B: The word that comes to my mind is resilience and determination. Those are the two words. To me, what you've really exemplified strongly in everything you've done. Practically carrying the stories and photos of 25 Hope Camp children to the summit of Everest was a powerful symbol. How does this practice of honoring and sharing children's stories on your expeditions contribute to Hope Camp's mission and inspire both.
• 47:00
  Speaker A: Your team and wider community? Well, I think. Well, it also translates to your team and your work because you have to look at the successes, you have to look at the hardships, you have to look at the struggles, and you have to look at the perseverance for the people that we surround ourselves with and honor them and share their stories. Whether it's a co worker. It's also belief and believing in others. I mean, these kids believe in me. They're writing me letters saying, Mr. Len, we know you can do this. Mr. Len, you got this. You know, Mr. Lin, I'll be thinking about you. I'll be praying for you. All these messages that come to me from these kids, and then I write back to them, you know, and I wrote them all letters and gave them shirts and hats and patches when I was done, you know, and. And I told them on that particular day, this is what I was challenged with. And I thought about the fact that, you know, you haven't. You've been in the hospital for 27 days, you know, and I thought about, you know, how you got through that. And I. And I was my. I drew strengths from that. So I think as humans, whether we're on a mountain or whether we're riding a bike or whether we're at the office, we can draw strength from the life experiences of others around us, whether it's our family members or our friends or just people that we meet or our coworkers, and taking a personal interest in our coworkers and taking a personal interest in the people that are around you, it enriches you. And that's where the material comes from for all these stories, is listening and relating. So I think that the validation that you can give other people. These little kids are telling they've never met me, and they're saying, I believe in you, Mr. Lai. You know, and I can give that same validation to my team while I'm gone. I was gone for six weeks. I wasn't dialing in, and I told my team, I believe in you guys. I know you guys have the skills to run this show without me, and I trust you. Don't be fearful about making a bad decision, because you made the best decision with what you had, and you had the autonomy to do that. So you have to. Stepping back actually was really validating for my team because they knew I trusted them. Of course, for me to go away for six weeks. Yeah. And I knew that they were going to make mistakes, but we'd fix them. And most likely, if something were really, really critical, they'd find me. You could text me, but the point was that sometimes you have to let go to allow others to fill in and step up. And I think everybody on my team stepped up while I was gone, but they knew that I wouldn't be critical when I came back, no matter what happened, because I knew that they needed to have the autonomy to do that. So I think it's all mixed up, John. It's all together. It's not one thing the way I'm talking about these things. They all relate to each other, whether it's the business, whether it's the nonprofit, whether it's the expedition. They all have this interconnectivity of trust, preparation, belief, training, doing the work, practice, and perseverance, and doing it on a team. These kids have medical teams. They have teaching teams. We all are part of it. Everyone's part of a team in some form or fashion.
• 50:02
  Speaker B: Have any of your Hope Cam children written you specifically and said by listening to and reading what you've done and what you've actually helped me, you know, come back and feel better about my life. Specifically said that to you? I'm just out of curiosity.
• 50:20
  Speaker A: Can you.
• 50:20
  Speaker B: Can you remember any letters quite like that?
• 50:22
  Speaker A: Yeah, there was one little girl, I think, this year from Nebraska. Her mom wrote the letter.
• 50:27
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 50:27
  Speaker A: And she's very active with a group called 4H. Sure. And she was the president of 4H. She's 13 years old. She's the president, and she gets cancer and she can't go back to school. Yeah. So we connected her to classmates, and so the leader of the 4H team said, well, you have to step down. Someone else has step in because you can't be here. And we convinced them to let her do it, let her keep her title. And she hosted weekly zoom calls.
• 50:53
  Speaker B: Oh, that's great.
• 50:53
  Speaker A: At the 4h. So it retained. And so her mom wrote to me and said, you have no idea how valuable that was to her identity, especially going through cancer, to not give that up. That was her lifeline to being normal. That's great was because you guys stepped in and provided it because it was a relatively not a very affluent part of the world. But she said, you stepped in and gave us the tool to have that experience for her so she could live as normal a life as possible. That's as validating as it gets. That's awesome to see that young lady engage lead from her hospital bed. Yeah, that's incredible.
• 51:30
  Speaker B: Beyond providing technology, HopeCam emphasizes fostering connection and addressing the mental health aspects of child's cancer journey. Can you share more about initiatives like hopecam hangouts and how they create meaningful connections for children, particularly those undergoing isolating treatments like bone marrow transplants?
• 51:52
  Speaker A: Well, the bone marrow kids have the toughest journey because they're going to be literally in a hospital for four to six weeks, can't leave the room and only one or two people can come in at a time after they've been sanitized because they have no immune system. So those kids and Lucas, by the way, the hockey player, that's what he went through and we connected him and he was a gamer, so he just played Call of Duty every day with his friends and that was his lifeline. Wow. Was playing Call of Duty, he didn't want to be in the classroom. He wanted to just play Call of Duty after school and talk to his friends because the connections of the hospital the allowed to happen. Our wi fi hotspot did and allowed them to connect to his computer. But the connectivity between these children happens on its own. But it also happens because we introduce them and we introduce the families. So that's one of the things we're trying to do more of, is have common classes they can attend or experiences they can join together virtually, whether it's a virtual cooking class through a bunch of Hope Camp kids. So they see their peers and their peers are know fighting the same battle they're fighting. The other thing that we're doing is we're actually sending out card making kits to our sponsors where they can spend the lunchtime and write cards to our children.
• 53:09
  Speaker B: That's great.
• 53:10
  Speaker A: It's very valuable. It's really fun because they've already committed because they've wanted to be part of our success and they have so much fun. And then a couple lunch hours writing letters to these individual children, encouraging them. And, you know, so it's really great, it's really fun to connect the donors and the sponsors and the supporters with the children as well. And, and so I think that just makes it more real instead of abstract. So I think the more that we can connect our kids to our kids, our sponsors to our kids, our kids to me, our kids to our, you know, the outside world, it's all, it's all, it all provides the same type of outcome, which is having them feel like they're not alone.
• 53:49
  Speaker B: Your son Matt is now healthy and working with you at Milestone Towers. How has his journey from diagnosis to reentry into school and beyond continued to shape the long term vision and priorities of Hope Camp? Especially in addressing the psychological impacts like PTSD that children's face.
• 54:09
  Speaker A: Yeah, well, well, first of all, Matt is so fatigued by being child one. Yeah. And so many times he always just says, let's let someone else take the spot. Yeah. So he's a little tired and I can see why. Yeah. But he, he does understand that, you know, they had to start somewhere and so, but I think that as a parent, so you, you get through cancer and then you go to adolescence and you go through teenage years. And I'm sorry that these kids carry cancer with them their whole lives. He was nine. But I don't think there's ever a time in Matt's life where he's not going to remember, know that he had that. And for a nine year old like my son to face his own mortality, it leaves a mark. Right. And they know kids that aren't here at a very young age and they carry that. And so make no mistake, these, these children are changed forever as a result. But at that really vulnerable time, that's where we come in. But it's something that no one really talks about, but it really does reframe the way they see the world going forward. And so it's not lost on us how these kids are impacted.
• 55:25
  Speaker B: So are there anything beyond the time that they're ill and going through that? Are there long term things that Hope Camp does for children beyond their illness once they're healthy? I mean, is there any kind of long term therapy as far as mental therapy or things to think about that they get?
• 55:46
  Speaker A: Well, we share best practices with families so they can know what to Expect, I think that's the biggest thing is to really help prepare the families for the future. So it's the peer network with the family members is something that, is something that's important to us, but we're a small organization, so there's only so much we can do.
• 56:07
  Speaker B: Yep.
• 56:07
  Speaker A: But, but I think that the parent network and the connectivity between the parents. That's great. Is really valuable. Yeah. And again, there's a lot of parents that are looking to parents whose kids have come out the other end that they need that inspiration. So I think that's, that's more organic than focused.
• 56:26
  Speaker B: Understood. So now we're going to shift to your business, Stone Towers. Milestone Communications has rebranded the Milestone Towers and celebrated its 20th anniversary. What was the strategic thinking behind this rebranding? And how does the new name and fresh look better reflect the company's core business and evolution over the two decades?
• 56:49
  Speaker A: Well, yeah, I mean, communications at the time in 2000, you know, was people didn't really know what towers were.
• 56:56
  Speaker B: Right.
• 56:57
  Speaker A: And so the communication brand was really to be the connector. Right. We were the connector between the public and the private sector to help the wireless companies get access to public sites, school sites, municipal sites, and so forth. So we thought the communications name would be valuable from that perspective. But in the end, really we just realized that what we produce as an asset is a real estate asset. And so we just decided to just change the name to be more aligned with that. So a lot of people confuse communications, other things that we don't do. But the infrastructure piece, we wanted to also emphasize that we are part of the digital infrastructure world. That name really didn't really emerge until about five years ago. So it's digital infrastructure, as you know, is the wireless communication piece, the tower piece, and data centers and fiber. So those are the four legs of the stool of the digital digital infrastructure world.
• 57:53
  Speaker B: Sure. We're going to get into that with more questions next here. Milestone Towers focuses on strategic partnerships with schools, municipalities and utility landlords, our landowners, to build wireless infrastructure. How does this partnership model differentiate Milestone Towers in the industry, and what unique challenges and opportunities arise from working with public sector entities?
• 58:18
  Speaker A: Well, a couple things. One is, in my days in building apartments or residential communities and retail and so forth is everything is about years to entry and great locations. And I didn't want to be a commodity builder. I didn't want to build in locations where it was easy for someone else to build next to me. And so we always focused on locations that were where we were one of the few Choices where you could actually build a tower like a park or a school surrounded by homes. So that was our focus, was to pick the higher value sites in the tougher environments where it's not easy to build, not easy to get entitlements and persevere through them in a way that would give us an advantage over other people that just wanted to build towers wherever. So having the municipal partnerships and the school partnerships, those aren't easy. It takes a long time to get those folks to trust you. And we've been doing it for over 20 years. So you have to follow up and do what you say you'll do. And a lot of times we'd have to compete with RFPs to succeed. But a big part of our success were the testimonials from municipal customers that felt like we gave them a fair shake and the economics were good and we executed and did what we said. So like any business, you have to follow through and you have to make good on your promises and you have to care about your property, your customers, your property owners who we lease land from. So to me, the niche that we carved out is still very valuable today because the number of people that do what I do now is tripled. There's no shortage of people that build towers now. Right. Even our. Even consulting companies that would provide services to us now building. So the niche of having real estate in great locations still holds true. So I'm really glad that I established that as our baseline.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker B: Sure.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker A: And grew from it because there's an awful lot of people that are building sites that compete with us, but most of the time our sites are better because it's the only site that can solve the problem.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker B: Well, I remember more than 20 years ago when you and I sat down and you showed me the business proposition for this company.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker A: Oh, my God, that's right. Good memory. Yes.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker B: So I remember.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker A: Still valid.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker B: I mean, we were doing real estate deals then.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker B: You came to me one day, I think it was at Barnes and Noble in Bethesda. We had coffee.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker A: I remember. Yeah. Oh, my God.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker B: And you looked at me and said, john, I'm crazy.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker A: Am I crazy?
• 1:00:48
  Speaker B: Our business on real estate, public land. I said, oh, boy, that's a challenge.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker A: What could possibly go wrong?
• 1:00:55
  Speaker B: Yeah. So it's. It's amazing to see how it's grown and done so well. You mentioned in your previous interview that the advent of 5G technology would bring significant changes to the wireless industry. How has 5G impacted Milestone Tower's business model growth and the demand for new Tower development past few years.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker A: Well, I can tell you that when we were deploying 5G in 2020, it was a gamble. Nobody really knew what the use. Use case would be for 5G.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker B: Sure.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker A: And here it is in 2025 and it's still a gamble. We really don't have a use case for 5G, John, except for fixed wireless, which allows for people in rural areas to get a really fast signal from the tower to receiving dish. And that's actually cutting into the cable industry's market share for connectivity, Internet at home and so. But I can say right now that the investment in 5G really has not paid off for our customers.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker B: Customers, really?
• 1:01:51
  Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, they've transitioned and they have the equipment right now. Sprint T Mobile now, with the acquisition of Sprint, 70% of their traffic goes over the 5G network. But it doesn't need to. It could have gone over LTE, the 4G network, because there's no real driver for that type of throughput on a wireless signal today that you can really point to that says, yeah, thank God for 5G. Whereas for example, in 2018, when we first started building LTE and smartphones came out and the combination of the smartphone and a 4G network, like, oh my God, I can do everything on my phone. And then Waze and all the apps and all the nav, effectively Garmin, it just took over because you had it in your hand where you could see video.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker B: Sure.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker A: But there's no real breathtaking case for 5G. So question is, what will it be? And the answer is, nobody really knows. It might be AI, it might be something else. But there's no real killer app for a 5G network right now.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker B: Interesting.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker A: And the customers have spent, you know, 50, 60, 70 billion in spectrum and expense. But the good news is that it's been funded and it's existing and so eventually we'll see a use for it. It's been. I don't see it's been a fail, but it's been very, very hard for our customers to look back and justify build it and they'll come.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker B: I guess I'm really not understanding the technology well enough to really dig further into it. But what did they anticipate that didn't happen?
• 1:03:30
  Speaker A: I guess. Well, you have a one gig speed connection potential right in your phone. Yep. Name an app that needs a gig.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker B: I don't know.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker A: Aren't they? Yeah. Right. And LTE can go up to 400.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker B: Well, what is, what does YouTube need? I mean, you know, when you're doing video Video is about as much as you could use.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker A: 80, 80 down, 10 up. Yeah. And is that LT LTE run. Can run the editor. It's running on 5G now. Yeah. But ultimately LTE could have done that with the spectrum.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker B: Right.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker A: So it's.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker B: Video has got to be the highest user of any throughput basis.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker A: It's video and obviously video through social media and so forth. But yeah, it's so, but, but it's. It, it functions on 5G, but it would have functioned on 4G as well. So.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker B: Interesting.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker A: But the real issue is, is that no one's paying extra for 5G and that's the hardest pill to swallow.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker A: Because you've got this ultra fast, five times faster network capability, but there's no monetization for it except normal inflation, which has helped. But for the most part, customers can't really differentiate why they should pay more for a 5G connection. And until we have a use case for it, then our customers are a little bit constrained.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker B: Okay, well, let's go into AI, since how is AI artificial intelligence currently being utilized or envisioned to optimize the operations, maintenance and deployment of cell towers? And what potential efficiencies or challenges does this present for foot milestone towers?
• 1:05:08
  Speaker A: Well, a little bit of a dip and then some growth. Right. Because as AI is being deployed, our customers are getting more capacity on the existing equipment they have. Right. And so there's a stall because they're getting the gains. All of our customers just got attacked credit a big tax benefit as a result of the bill. And so that's really great because all that, those taxes that they aren't paying can go back in the network. But the point I'm making though is that effectively the efficiency from the AI use of their equipment gets more for less and suppresses a little bit the demand for expansion of the network. But that's a rounding error compared to the capital that they have now as a result of deregulation with this administration. I'm not proponent of anything, I'm just saying deregulation and tax benefits have helped corporate America and particularly the wireless communication businesses be able to have more resources allocated. That's number one, whether or not, and who knows, John? I mean, right now these learning models and the applications, each and every one of us are using them differently every month, every week in terms of day. And so, so, and it's all flowing through these devices, flowing through your computer, but it's also flowing through your wireless device. Yeah. And right now the, the, the amount of data that flows through for AI is not that much because it's all being crunched at the data center with the. With the chips. Right. And then it's sent back. And it's usually sent back in the form of a link or in the form of words. But they're not generating video. They're sending back to you to how to do something. They're connecting you a video.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker B: Well, you might get an image. I haven't seen a video come back in images. Like Dall, et cetera.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. So right now, the load on the network for AI is not tremendous from the compute standpoint, but all the transportation systems that get that data are going to be stressed. So the wireless networks eventually are going to have more AI running through them. The fiber that connects the data centers is going to have more AI running through them. The data centers themselves have to store more data and compute more data because AI takes a tremendous amount of compute.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker B: So what happens when Steven Spielberg says, okay, create me a movie. Here are the characters, here's the little storyline on AI and all of a sudden it creates that talk about throughput there. That could be phenomenal.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker A: Right. Oh, that's somebody that could say, pretending to be Steven Spielberg. Right. Well, the reality is that. The reality is that the empowerment and the time savings are. You know, this is not my industry. Okay. This is the industry. But the applications in my industry are going to be focused on taking better sites, speeding up our processes. Got it. Speeding up our systems. We still have to get approvals. We still have to have engineer. But our engineers are going to get faster drawing plans. Right. Our attorneys are going to get faster at creating contracts.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker B: Sure.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker A: Our, you know, our land use specialists are going to be able to respond more quickly to comments and public administration staff that review our plans, review our zoning applications, they're going to have more information to be able to ask better questions. And so I think what's going to happen is it's going to accelerate transactions that allow for us to be able to do more with less resources and faster, and that benefits every business. So that's where we're searching for to ask the right questions on how can we operate better as a company. I think every company in the United States or the world right now is asking those questions.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker B: Sure.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker A: How can we use AI to be able to be more aligned, more efficient, more strategic, have faster, better, better answers for the questions we're asking. We evaluate sites and so forth, and it's saving us money because before we pick up the phone or send an email to our attorneys to tell Us, what's the code? The code's right there. The code's right there. And then we have to ask the follow up question. So we're effectively reducing our costs every single day with the use of AI.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker B: So what I'm hearing you say is the only correlation with AI is and new cell tower infrastructure is basically the efficiencies that it offers in your systems and your businesses. There's no correlation technology wise with regard to cell towers and AI per se.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker A: I think it really comes down to is demand on the network and we really haven't seen super stress on the network from AI today. But it's all going to change. So if you don't like our industry, wait six months, it changes. And our customers have three ways to deliver a signal. They can do it with equipment and they've done that because most of them we've all upgraded to 5G or open RAN networks. The second thing is to buy more spectrum from the federal government, which is a pipe and more pipes. The bigger the pipe, the more throughput. Right. But there's no spectrum available right now for at least another three years because FCC just got the approval to auction spectrum. But they have to clear it and it takes years to do this. So short term spectrum is not going to be a big factor. Short term, the technology, there's no 6G, so the technology is pretty much where it's supposed to be. So the only other way our customers can really continue to keep up is to build more sites and fill in between, in between where the sites are and densify their networks. So that's why we're really excited right now because finally we're seeing the capitals available, the resources and the focus and it's all pointing toward infrastructure.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker B: And you have hundreds of sites, right?
• 1:11:05
  Speaker A: Thousands, yeah. Places we can build. Yeah, we have thousands of placeholders. We have exclusive rights to build. Right. And then of course we have, you know, the capital to build the sites subject to the leasing. So we don't build without a tenant.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker B: Oh sure.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker A: But we have great sites that very few people can access. And that's what I think our niche is really unique, is that we can fill in some of the hardest places to cover. And there's a mindset change now where more people want the public safety is.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker B: The relationship between the proliferation of data centers and the demand for increased wireless connectivity through cell towers. Do you see these two infrastructures becoming more interconnected?
• 1:11:44
  Speaker A: Well, the big thing was really the small mini micro data centers at the tower and there's a whole Business model built on that.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker B: Really?
• 1:11:51
  Speaker A: Yeah, but it's really not. It's starting to happen a little bit with American Tower and they're deploying these mini data centers, but it's pretty nascent right now. And the macro data centers, the big data centers, are the ones that are really driving most of the. Where the most information goes. But maybe that might be the next thing that happens is that storing data at the source where the cell tower is transmitting and connecting. But right now it's not a big.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker B: Have you seen a dual cell tower data center site where they have both on the same location?
• 1:12:25
  Speaker A: Yeah. Again, the data centers right now, I mean, the cell sites are small. Right. So there's only so much data you could store anyways at a cell tower site. Right. So I don't see a real correlation today, but I do believe that there will be a model, a business model for data centers to be smaller and in critical places.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker B: Interesting.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker A: I just don't know whether that's going to be a tower or whether it's at a switch or whether it's at a certain location. I don't know enough about the geography of how data centers, how data flows to be able to predict that. But right now the concept of small data centers at cell towers is available, but it's really not really being embraced. Mm.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker B: Are there any emergency emerging trends or technologies, particularly involving AI, that could disrupt the traditional cell tower business model? And how is milestone towers prepared for preparing for such changes?
• 1:13:19
  Speaker A: Well, I'm just thankful that I don't code for a living because what do they say, 70% of the code right now being created is created by AI. And I'm really glad that I'm not a doctor because people are getting answers from AI that rival their doctors on what to do. So there's a lot of industries that are really going to be.
• 1:13:42
  Speaker B: How about an attorney?
• 1:13:44
  Speaker A: I mean, I think you can go name the profession. Yeah, but. But we build, right. So and we have to get approvals to build and that's politics, of course. And so it's real estate, it's relationships, it's politics, it's approvals. And so we have to argue against an elected body to get approval for a site. So to me, as long as I stay in that niche, I don't see AI taking that away from me. No. So I feel pretty protected from that perspective. But I think that over time we're going to see, just like I said before, just more efficiencies. And I think our costs are going to go down because Our engineers aren't going to need as many people to produce plants because they'll be able to create those through engineering, AI engineering plans.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker B: As the education improved to the point. Because last time we spoke on the podcast, you said that there was just this. Civic organizations would come up with regard to the waves and stuff from cell to environmental health. Right. Is that still prevalent?
• 1:14:49
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, there will never be a time when there won't be a certain body of people that feel that what we do is safe. There's certain people out there that, you know, effectively have convinced themselves that there's harm to radio energy and there's no credible evidence of it, but doesn't mean that people don't believe it.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker B: So it's almost like a religious thing to some extent.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker A: Yeah. Or just, it's something that people just grasp, gravitate toward. Right. Because it's contrarian.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker B: Right.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker A: And, and they, they surround themselves with people that believe that as a community. So in many respects that, that will never stop in my lifetime.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker B: Is that still your largest obstacle to getting approval on things?
• 1:15:32
  Speaker A: It's that and, and it's just people that don't want to see the tower. That's really what's not right. Everyone wants a service, but nobody wants to be within a visual sight line of it. So that's always. And then those folks that live in those communities will then adopt the necessary arguments that will discredit the reason why I should be near them. But that'll never change either.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker B: Interesting. Given the growing importance of data processing at the edge of networks, how might AI driven edge computing impact the function and design of future cell towers? Does this present new opportunities for milestone towers?
• 1:16:12
  Speaker A: Well, we talked a little bit about edge computing with the micro centers at the sites. The thing that we are seeing, and we've seen this last 10 years, is that there's not just one way to cover a network. You can do small cells on street lights or on power poles, but it's like a twinkle light versus a floodlight. So yeah, you can light a path with small lights, but it just covers the path. So if you really want to provide a broad umbrella of coverage, it's going to be a macro tower, which is what we build, but there's lots of, in building systems, there's lots of mini sites that also will supplement. And then of course, the one thing he didn't ask me was about StarLink and what's Starlink's role. But their role is really important because they're going to provide a safety blanket or safety net of texting and many short term. But Starlink can handle satellite. Satellite, yeah. So it's going to supplement, it's not going to take over because it can't handle the throughput that you have in a terrestrial network. And my investors ask me that all the time. When do satellites take the need for your cell towers away? And the answer is as long as the demand stays fixed, they could probably erode it. But the demand keeps growing every every month people want more out of the network. So our customers are constantly trying to keep the networks upgraded and based on demand. So. But I think the satellite's going to be really life changing for a lot of people in rural areas. They'll be able to get the get the signals at pretty reasonable speeds and.
• 1:17:48
  Speaker B: The economics I assume are difficult in rural areas for your for building towers then unless you have enough demand.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker A: Yeah, it's really tough. But, but, but the fixed wireless connections from the tower to the home and that signal can go a couple miles. That's a revenue source. And usually in those areas the spectrum that the carriers own is not being utilized. So they can actually utilize the spectrum they already have and monetize it. And also it also helps them politically because they're showing Congress and others that they're doing their best to create rural connectivity and the digital divide is rural.
• 1:18:25
  Speaker B: So I didn't put this on the thing, but I'm going to ask this. Are you seeing regulations coming up that are either helping or hurting your industry going forward? I mean, let's just say I know it's politics. So the question is where are you seeing the most obstacles and what political bents? I don't want to get too deep into politics, but where do you see the problems and how do you see overcoming that? Is it an educational process or what is what's going to accomplish the challenges that you face? And where are you finding the easiest to do business and make things happen?
• 1:19:02
  Speaker A: Well, I think any developer will tell you be careful what you wish for because as the barriers come down so low, then you have a lot more people competition building against you. Right. So. So in many respects some of the regulations actually are a friend because it makes the process hard and as you can persevere through it, you have something that's valuable and a lot of companies don't want to go through that. And plus our sites take longer. So I've always been very Jared on criticizing over regulation. But there are certain timelines that really drive us crazy and that's really the key is how long it takes to get responses. And sometimes we'll go through three site plan reviews. Nobody should go through three site plan reviews or. Or another thing. In. In certain states, they keep adding another thing, you know, that we have to look at or a tree that we have to measure or we can't right now. We can't build at certain times of the year because of bats. Bats populate the trees and you can't cut trees between these dates and these dates. And it really drives a. Really causes consternation on construction scheduling. So I think that that's something we're seeing now that we didn't see before, that. I'm a lover of all animals, but I'd prefer to be able to take trees down when I want. But I think that there's really nothing that's glaring from a regulation perspective that I see. That's a big challenge for us right now.
• 1:20:29
  Speaker B: That's great. Your son has joined you, your son Matt at Milestone Towers. How is his. Is this father son partnership evolved in business? What strengths or perspectives does Matt bring to the company given his own experiences and professional background?
• 1:20:46
  Speaker A: Well, I can say that it's really tough to onboard your. Your child into your company because there's a lot of baggage that comes with that from the rest of the team. Yes. So it took a little while, you know, for the team to kind of. Kind of accept him, even though he worked for five years before he joined my team. But he's been with me now for six years. And it's really gratifying to see him in a place in the organization where he's really aligned the things that he likes to do, the things that he's really good at, with the needs that we have. And that's an evolutionary process for almost every business to try to kind of find people the right role. And sometimes it doesn't happen when you hire them, and especially when it's your son where you're, you know, you're taking him as he is, you know, so. So it took a while, but it's really gratifying to see how well he contributes to other people on the team, how well he's doing things that we've never done before, how often he's pretty fearless about suggesting things that maybe another team member wouldn't because it's kind of risky or something we haven't thought of. So I think his boldness has been really, really welcoming for me because he's fearless about asking, why are we doing it this way? So I think he's not fearful of losing his job with a bad suggestion. But it's great to see him thinking at a higher level. And it's so gratifying to watch him develop as a professional.
• 1:22:12
  Speaker B: Are you grooming him for leadership?
• 1:22:14
  Speaker A: It just depends. I mean, the answer would be of course, but I groom everybody for leadership, of course. And they'll be my team that I don't want to groom for leadership. I want everyone to be able to do anymore.
• 1:22:23
  Speaker B: Well, I've interviewed, let's see now, four people, two at the Forger Pratt organization and two at the Basuto company. And you used to work at Busuto. So, you know, you know Tom and you know Toby. And so I talked about the legacy. And of course, Toby now runs, is the CEO of the company, Tom chairman. So that was a process that Tom told Toby, you got to go to learn the mortgage banking business, you got to learn the real estate business before you come to work here. And he went and did that and came back and, you know, so he didn't want to have to have that issue that you talked about, you know, right up front when he was not knowing the business at all. So that was an interesting strategy. And then I interviewed Brian Folger and then his nephew, Cameron Pratt, who now runs Folger Pratt, which is an interesting segue there. And Cameron talked about the Harvard program that he went through that talks about legacy and family businesses and all that. So I bring that up thinking that maybe that's a thought process that you've gone through at all, or have you given any consideration to that at all?
• 1:23:34
  Speaker A: No, I think what you just mentioned is timely because I was having some conversations just a week or so ago about some of the educational programs that are out there. That. And we're a small team. We only need people. So it's not like he's going to run this huge operation. But the point of, you know, being able to gain the skills that you need, look, we could go send them out and get an mba, and I would welcome that because that was the path that I took. But that may not be the only path to get the skills, because what you want is the skills and the thinking and the mindset and the ability to be able to think critically about things. Yep. So, but to me, I think that those modules where you go for two weeks and you really immerse and you build relationships and you gain skill sets that are directed and very specific, I think that's a great way to bring people up. And some people on my team, I have a coach that works with them every two weeks and they talk to the coach and they have someone other than myself to give them feedback because I think if I can make them stronger as individuals and as professionals through coaching, then they'll make our team stronger and they'll present ideas that. That we're not thinking of, you know, in a. In a way that's more fearless. So it's an investment every. You want to invest in your people and you want to be a smaller, large company. You want to invest in them so they can feel like A, you want them to grow, B, they can put this time in to get new skills that they can bring back to you. So you got to do that as a business.
• 1:25:00
  Speaker B: Well, one of your associates, David, is a member of my community.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker A: That's right.
• 1:25:04
  Speaker B: He's been great. He's been very active and coming and being.
• 1:25:07
  Speaker A: And he worked for Busudo. Yeah, yeah. He was in the construction team.
• 1:25:12
  Speaker B: Yeah. And he's learned a lot just coming to our events and stuff, which has been great. So let's move into leadership a little bit. Your experiences, whether in business, philanthropy, or extreme sports, consistently highlight the power of teamwork, humility, and trusting your team, which you've already said. How do you cultivate these characteristics within your various teams? And what do you do when unforeseen challenges, like losing bikes from a van or facing hypothermia on a mountain, require immediate adaptation and trust?
• 1:25:49
  Speaker A: Yeah. Well, thank you for mentioning the time that they took my bikes to the drive through on Race Across America and they got peeled off the roof. That was quite a memorable moment. And I think you might remember my answer to that because I saw the van without the bikes and I knew exactly what happened when they gave me a cold coffee from Starbucks after an hour of waiting, I was riding and they caught me. But, yeah, it's like, look, everyone that's a leader has got to not make suggestions at the wrong time and let people own their work and let them own their problem. And so as much as you don't like to see people struggle, sometimes the best advice is to let them sort it out. And even though you might have an answer for them, sometimes the best answers are found on their own discovery. So I think in many respects, learning to let go and let people solve their own problems and own their own problems is one of the hardest things to do as a leader, but it's one of the most critical things to do.
• 1:26:50
  Speaker B: How do you know when to do that? Is the question.
• 1:26:53
  Speaker A: I think it depends on what the circumstances are for You. And like in that instance, I was riding my bike across the country. I couldn't stop and give advice. And they. They knew. They were smart guys. They knew what to do. And the bikes, you know, effectively what happened was the entire bike rack with two bikes was peeled off the roof. But by the end of the day, they stopped at a bike store and they found the replacement parts. And we had redundancy because we had an identical van for that reason, so they could borrow the parts. I'm not kidding. That's why you have two identical vehicles. So something happens, you can swap. And so that paid. That was a system that paid off. But. But ultimately it's just trust. It really comes down to trust. And if you trust your team and you believe in them and you believe they're prepared, then you'll let them alone.
• 1:27:42
  Speaker B: Your father's advice. Sometimes one door shuts and another door opens. It's a better door. Resonated deeply with you. After decades of navigating triumphs and adversities, in what ways do you continue to see this philosophy manifest in your life? And how do you encourage others to embrace an open mindset when facing unexpected setbacks?
• 1:28:06
  Speaker A: Well, it kind of started at the beginning of the conversation, John, when you talked about, know why? Climbing. And so for me, it was being uncomfortable and not. Not worrying about being uncomfortable, because nobody moves up to another level in their careers or whatever they're doing without. Not if you don't know the outcome, you're uncomfortable. And there's a lot of ways the outcome could go north or south. Sure, you're uncomfortable. So the question is, when you're putting yourself in an uncomfortable place, are you willing to do the work to be able to eliminate the potential to be more uncomfortable by making mistakes? And so I think that's really what it comes down to, is being fearless to take on new things where you don't know the outcome. But you either surround yourself with people that can help you, or you start training and learning new skills, skills and new systems or be stronger or breathe thinner air at night. All these things that you can focus on that you can control. I think that's, to me, what's the most fun about having done these things is that they've all been things that I really didn't know how to do. But I was able to prepare as much as I could in 2023. I didn't prepare enough. And then there's overconfidence, and that's pretty humbling. When I did Race across America in 2017, after winning it in 2012. I didn't spend enough time acclimatizing to the heat because I had things that conflicted. I couldn't go out to the desert. I got a TED Talk three days before the race. I should have been in the desert acclimatizing, but I'm doing this TED Talk on a Saturday. We're racing on a Tuesday. You know, that was ridiculous. But it took me three years to get a TED Talk. But it cost me because I almost didn't make it through the desert because I didn't have the ability to prepare for it. So there are these trade offs that happen, but that was pivotal. Huge rookie mistake that I made when I did race across America and I almost cost me a race. I finished within 90 minutes of the cutoff.
• 1:30:21
  Speaker B: The first time.
• 1:30:21
  Speaker A: You. I finished 20 hours a day before the Cup. Wow. On my age group. So I think overconfidence sometimes is a demon and sometimes we don't know when we're confident. So I think having enough fear of not being successful is a good motivator to make sure you don't become overconfident. I think that's where I've made the biggest mistakes when I thought I had it and I didn't.
• 1:30:46
  Speaker B: So what's the next big challenge for Len Forkas? I mean, you've just climbed Mount Everest. You've done all these things. You know, what's the next big thing you want to try to accomplish?
• 1:30:57
  Speaker A: You know, the next biggest thing is to stay focused on my family and my team at work and just get back to a normal life and start giving back. I took a lot when I trained and when I was gone. Okay. I take a lot from the bank account of human relationships. So I made a lot of withdrawals and now I'm making deposits. And so I just have to be really focused on being present, being available, anticipating and just sticking around and being a better husband, a better father or brother or coworker or boss and just be more present now because right now there's nothing I'll do. The North Pole in April next year if it's open, and we can do it. But I got plenty of time to prepare for that. And right now it's just a matter of getting back on track and, and, you know, being given. Putting. Making deposits in those, those social bank accounts.
• 1:31:53
  Speaker B: So you're going to get back with your friends and start writing again?
• 1:31:56
  Speaker A: Yeah, but mostly I'm. I'm, you know, making fresh squeezed versions for my wife. Okay. In the morning.
• 1:32:03
  Speaker B: I get it.
• 1:32:03
  Speaker A: She likes.
• 1:32:04
  Speaker B: No more containers at night, then.
• 1:32:06
  Speaker A: No, no, no. I'm like, you know, I'm a rock. Yeah, look, there's the honey to list. What can I. How can I help? You know?
• 1:32:13
  Speaker B: That's great.
• 1:32:14
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's great. Putting there for my daughter's birthday in New York. Being. Being present, that's really important.
• 1:32:20
  Speaker B: So is there anything else you'd like to say, Len?
• 1:32:22
  Speaker A: John, you. You're. You're so meticulous in your preparation, so thank you for that. And. But no, I mean, it's just. It's such an honor to be interviewed by you after. Look at all the people that have spent time with you. It's pretty amazing what you've created. Created, and I'm honored to be part of it.
• 1:32:38
  Speaker B: Well, you have a unique. You know, your. Your life is unique in so many different ways, and I'm just so honored to be able to share this with the listeners. It's just an inspiration to me, so. And I really appreciate your time, Len, very much.
• 1:32:53
  Speaker A: Thank you, John.
• 1:32:53
  Speaker B: And thank you, listeners. If just for listeners, I will be posting on the website episodes we call the information about hopecam about Len's company.
• 1:33:05
  Speaker A: If you have any questions, you can reach out shareholders.
• 1:33:08
  Speaker B: So thank you for listening. Appreciate it.