Latest / UK Column Radio / Freeing Language from Thought Control — with Rosemary Jenkinson

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Freeing Language from Thought Control — with Rosemary Jenkinson · UK Column Radio

0:08
Hello everyone, this is Diane Rathmussen, Makati with UK
0:10
column. I'm really happy to be talking
0:12
today with author Rosemary Jenkinson.
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I met her a few weeks ago at this conference called the
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Academy sponsored by Ideas Mattered, which was a fabulous
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conference. And actually Rosemary talked
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with one of my favorite sessions at the conference.
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So I thought I would bring her on to UK column to have a a
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discussion with her today. So thanks for joining us today.
0:33
Rosemary, Would you like to maybe tell us a little bit about
0:35
yourself and and how did you end up at this conference?
0:38
Yeah, great to meet you again, Diane, so soon after the
0:42
conference. Yes, I ended up there because,
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well, I'm a writer and I had originally been picked up by the
0:51
Battle of Ideas and I did a couple of sessions with them
0:55
about writing and the the publishing industry.
1:00
So that's really they asked me because the conference was about
1:04
language specifically, and my latest novel Memorizers is about
1:09
language. So that's really why I was a
1:12
perfect fit to speak at the conference, because it's my
1:16
obsession, language and the minutiae of it.
1:20
Yeah, I mine too as well. One thing that I don't talk
1:23
about frequently, at least publicly anymore because it was
1:26
so long ago, is that my my first degree was in Spanish.
1:30
And one of the things that I learned by learning Spanish,
1:34
which I started learning in high school and obviously kept going
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and never stopped by studying Spanish language and literature.
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It actually improved my English skills and I actually for a
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while thought about doing a linguistics degree, which I
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started studying early on as well.
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And various things led me to down different paths obviously.
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So language is one of my first loves as well.
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So this is a great thing to be discussing with you and, and
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obviously the conference as well for thinking about what, what
2:05
language means. And one of the things that I, I
2:08
want to bring in early into this conversation, because it's
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something that we both have in common, is that language has
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both got us into a lot of trouble.
2:17
You could say that, Diane, but we.
2:19
Love it it's, you know, sometimes our loves aren't the
2:22
best things for us, right when it comes to consequences.
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So do you would you mind sharing your story?
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I know it's difficult, but I, I think it's for those of us who
2:30
have been through these experiences.
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I think it's good to get this out there as much as possible
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for people to understand what actually happened to it.
2:38
Yeah, uh, I had written an article about Troubles writing
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and Troubles writers, uh, for a very small, well, so a small
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Northern Irish publication, but it's a very esteemed one called
2:51
Fortnite. And umm, so I wrote this and
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what happened was there was a lot of social media kickback
3:00
about it. You know, that I had kind of,
3:04
umm, been rude about Troubles writing and that it was very,
3:09
very important. Whereas I, my view was that I
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want to, to discuss or I want Northern Irish literature to be
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much more than about the Troubles.
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Anyway, So what happened as a consequence of the social media
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kickback? I received an e-mail from, from
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my then publisher and that was Dura Press in Ireland.
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And they wrote that they did. They had supported my right to
3:39
free speech. But the fact was that they
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thought that it was not going to help them sell any books.
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And they said we are rescinding our offer to publish you.
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And I had I was due to have a a novel published with them.
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So that was it gone on on the basis, I mean, ridiculously on
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one tiny article that there was only, you know, it was only a
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few writers who kicked back against me anyway.
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It wasn't like a sort of mass, mass sort of, umm, attack on all
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sides. So it was a very small thing in
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which to get my work cancelled. And now, you know, so it
4:22
affected me very deeply. I was so shocked because they
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told me they loved my novel and it was like, how can you love
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something and then just turn your back on that for for
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something which which wasn't even a terrible, terrible thing
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to say. It wasn't.
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It was a perfectly reasonable thing to say.
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It just kind of slightly ruffled some feathers.
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And all writers in history, the great ones, I think, have
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sometimes ruffled some feathers. Oh yeah, absolutely.
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I would like to put myself in that category, yeah.
4:55
You know Diane, you know how? I do.
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And you know, it's interesting. I wasn't counseled by a
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publisher, at least not yet. But I was published widely,
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obviously as a full professor in my field.
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And once the I'll call it the witch hunt started coming after
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me for me speaking out sort of in favor of things that I
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believed in as a professional librarian and a librarian
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academic for over 20 years. When I started to not toe the
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line when it came to things like gender ideology.
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And when it came to things like, you know, what it was that I
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believed we should be holding on to, which is, you know,
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professional standards. And they started to cancel me.
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I, I know personally like because it, it changed the
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entire course of my life, which I'm now thankful that I have
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this wonderful platform with UK column.
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But I just want to say for those of us who have been through
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this, it's a very painful process and you've ended up
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losing a lot. But you also, I guess if you
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want to put a positive spin on it, you also learn and grow from
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it as well. Absolutely, we wouldn't have met
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each other had this not happened.
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And and this is the things you meet the better people who stand
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up for your rights to talk Diane.
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So I I'm sure you've met so many great people because of this.
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Yeah, oh, absolutely. People I never would have met
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before and, and, and frankly, nobody from my former life even
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talks to me anymore. And for my former professional
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life, so. But I now have a whole new
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network of people and it keeps growing and it's, and it's and
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it's great. So it's interesting to hear
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about the publisher deciding to cancel you because it was
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actually something when I was looking for a publisher because
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I'm, I currently have a contract to write a book on.
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I'm basically driven by what happened to me around ideology
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driving libraries and how that is impacting our access to
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knowledge and information and the destruction that is
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happening within libraries because because of this
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ideology, what they're and you should be concerned about this
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as well as an author, obviously, that what they're doing is
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removing things in grown up libraries and adult libraries
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and university libraries where they think it's not inclusive,
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you know, using that sort of coded language, right?
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Because we know that in this case it's an inversion, that
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inclusion is actually exclusion. And this case, we're excluding
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people that are, you know, from the history of this country and
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your country and everything else, because we're, we're
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trying to be inclusive to the history and, and think of people
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from other countries, which I have no problem with adding and,
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and expanding collections as much as possible, but don't
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destroy the, the, the origins of this country that built this
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great university system here that we have in the UK.
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But that's one of the things I'm speaking out about.
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And, and people maybe are not aware that this is happening.
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So what I would like to maybe hear from you about a bit is,
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you know, how well, first of all, I'm, I'm sure you have
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feelings about that and opinions on that.
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And, and I think what we need to do is maybe start to look at
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this problem together for those of us who are writers and who
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want to respect our right to free speech and, and to share
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our ideas. I mean what's your thought on
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this as a a well known published author that I highly respect?
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But well, clearly any, any removal of books because of
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content, I'm completely against, you know, from libraries.
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Libraries are the place of that. We trust that we can get fined
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on everything and every kind of taboo must be covered in
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libraries. Umm, so I, I have no
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restrictions on literary fiction or anything or even.
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Yeah, or fact. There should be no restrictions
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as far as I'm concerned. Umm, so I am.
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Yeah. I'm an absolutist with you
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there, Diane. And I think, yeah, the whole
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thing about yeah, nowadays we're just so there's so many taboos
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that we're not allowed to talk about and it's ridiculous.
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And the whole thing about even trigger, even books that are lie
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are allowed to be published, have to have warnings.
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Now the trigger warnings and it, it's an insane.
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Where does it end? Everything is potentially
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offensive to one person. I there's just no end to it.
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And that's why we have to stop it.
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Yeah, and I, I, I just, I'll hold your book up here.
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It's just so that people can, Oh yeah, recover.
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I, I will make sure that there is a link to it in the write up
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for the interview so people can, can, can buy it.
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And I believe this is one of the, the funniest things I saw
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when I started to read your book was that it starts with a
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government warning, interestingly, and I'll just
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read it out because I think it deserves it.
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But the following book comes with a Class A mental health
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warning. It may propagate deleterious
10:00
desires for individualism within the reader.
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Can't have that anymore. It may lead to disaffection
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within society. Whosoever circulates this book
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with a view to undermining government authority will be
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subject to state sanctions. Very scary, Rosemary.
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It's, it's actually what's happening.
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So it's a total reflection of society right now.
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And those whole trigger warning. So that was my fictional trigger
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warning, really, and warning against being in a library and
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everything. I mean, libraries in my book is,
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as you know, have all been burnt down.
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And so, you know, this is where we're heading.
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And that's the danger. The dictator in my book says
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unity through language. So they're trying to control
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everything. And yeah, clearly books are the
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most dangerous things for dictatorships.
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Oh yeah. Well, and, and the, the, the
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hypocrisy that's that I've been talking about in my reporting
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and talks I've been doing around the country myself, is that the
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other side of it that's happening is, and you know, I
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know that you are, this is a dystopian novel.
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And I, I've, I've interested myself in dystopian fiction and,
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and films and, and books as well.
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The other side of it though, which is I always refer back to
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the scene from Brave New World where, you know, this director
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talked to the children about the unbelievable fact that children
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in, in the have maybe wouldn't even have relations until they
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were older than 20 years old and thought it was unbelievable.
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And we see this now that the specialization of children for
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something that I cover is that what's happening is that the
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libraries are using this argument against censorship to
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put sexual content in front of children, which I've been
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covering extensively. But when it comes to people who
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are, say, over 18 over whatever, in my opinion, they can read
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anything they want to. Like, I have no restrictions
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there. But they're inverting that once
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again to say, well, it's censorship if we don't put sex
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manuals in front of children. And this is the thing that I've
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been speaking about, which will also be in my book.
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So I think that what we're seeing is an inversion of
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language. And we're also seeing what
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whatever is behind this. And I think there's a lot behind
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this, a lot of big agenda items behind this.
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But we're seeing that twisting, twisting it around and, and
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putting children in danger and exposing to things that they
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shouldn't be seeing. So we're seeing this very
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strange twisting around. It's really affecting a lot of
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things right now. I'm not.
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I'm not sure if you're aware that this has been happening.
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I, I never thought of it in terms of that inverse.
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And it's like a reverse infantilization of adults.
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And in a way it's to control us, as you say, in order that they
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can push that agenda on the children.
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So if we are controlled, therefore they can give whatever
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ideology they want to children or sexualization because we're
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so controlled ourselves. So I guess, I guess that's
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what's happening. Yeah.
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And, and, and what I've heard is because I'm, I'm working
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actively with some, some parent groups and so on that are
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concerned about what's being placed in front of their
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children. That in some cases when they go
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to the school or to the library and complain about what's being
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put into the curriculum or being put into the library, is that
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the parents themselves get cancelled by the school or by
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staff at the school for speaking out for their children.
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Oh, yeah. OK, so the authoritarianism is,
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is totally, yeah, rife in schools now.
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That's. I didn't know that.
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Yeah, and and you know what's what's going on with our our
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lovely Bridget Phillipson, the education secretary who was
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mandating a national curriculum. And we, we already, we've seen
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this going on for some time now for the past few years of not
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only libraries, but in education.
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So saying that children have to learn that because according to
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the UN and the World Health Organization and the WEF that
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we've been uncovering and some of our authors that are writing
14:00
for at the UK column is that because of things like the UN
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Convention of the Rights of the Children.
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And because, and they're, they're basically saying, well,
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we're doing this because of the fact that, you know, children
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are sexual beings from birth and therefore we, we can put
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anything in front of them at any age.
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And we should be because they're Born This Way.
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So again, but then adults can't read what they want because they
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need a trigger warning to read a, a novel because it might hurt
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their feelings. So it's, it's complete.
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Everything is completely twisted around.
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Yeah, that's ironical completely.
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And yeah, as you say, yeah, it seems completely twisted.
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And yeah, I didn't actually know that that children are regarded
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sexual beings from age zero. I think we develop our sort of
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sexuality and there is sexual feelings in us all, but that
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develops and is often taught. I mean that's the whole thing.
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I mean, I think sex is so much taught and and that's what the
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dangerous thing is, I think. Yeah, absolutely.
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And so, but if we're teaching children, you know, because some
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of these things are being put into primary schools, which
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means, you know, that and and, and also in the into picture
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books that are for children who aren't even in school yet.
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So a lot of this around the LGBT agenda being placed in front of
15:21
children in picture books. So there's books like granddad's
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prides, a lot of famous books I've talked about books where
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you can even change your species if you want to.
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You know that there's, you can now, now that you can, there's a
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book called the the boy who wanted to be a deer, the picture
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book, you can get it for free on Amazon.
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And, and it says the boy decided that he would be so much happier
15:42
if he were a deer. And so his family let him change
15:44
his species. And now he has antlers and he's
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so happy and his family loves him.
15:49
So this is how we see the pushing agenda even to, you
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know, 2 year olds and. Yeah, yeah.
15:56
It's the whole concept of physical change, yeah, that we
15:59
can physically be anything we that we want, which is quite a
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sort of quite a leap of imagination.
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Yeah, but now it's it's in, it's on paper and words.
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So, you know it's OK, but then when we see the trigger warnings
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that are out there for the rest of the world, for those of us
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who should be old enough to make decisions for ourselves about
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what we read. It's almost like Diana.
16:25
It's almost like a a kind of magical realism for children,
16:30
you know, in a way that, yeah, you are magic, you can change.
16:34
So it's really strange. It's very strange.
16:38
Yeah. Yeah.
16:39
But. So, So what let you down?
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This, this path of becoming a writer, What, what, what was it
16:45
that decided to that that made you to speak to decide?
16:50
I'm getting writes dystopian satirical novels, like how did
16:54
you get to the point before the cancellation, like when you were
16:57
writing and into sort of more proper formats that were
16:59
approved by the authoritarians? I like that, yeah.
17:05
I don't think my works ever really been entirely approved,
17:08
but yes, it was tolerated. And also, yeah, they, they
17:12
appreciate skill in writing, I think.
17:13
But I suppose my ideas have always been shaped by the world
17:17
around me and the politics that are happening.
17:19
And umm, yeah. I'd always wanted to write about
17:23
a dystopian world like 1984 because I did believe that we
17:27
were kind of moving towards that.
17:30
But. But originally I got into
17:32
writing, obviously for love of language, just simply that as we
17:36
were talking about, I mean, there's nothing more beautiful
17:39
than being able to express what you feel.
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And that kind of satisfaction and, yeah, thrill of being able
17:46
to express yourself on page is, is a beautiful thing.
17:51
Yeah. It's it's I think it's difficult
17:53
to it considering, you know, as the the summary in your back to
17:58
the book says, the West current involved in free speech and that
18:01
your truth is the wrong kind of truth, right.
18:04
And that we see this in 1984. We see this in a lot of a lot of
18:08
different the Dopian story storylines and novels where
18:13
libraries appear frequently, and this is actually something I'm
18:17
starting to do some research on because it's something I've been
18:20
recently aware of the more I think about it.
18:23
There's a dystopian film called Rollerball.
18:26
Have you heard of this one from? It's it's.
18:28
It's, it's from the 70s, I believe, and I won't get into
18:32
this, the plot of the film, but basically the, the main
18:35
character at some point has reason to go visit a library and
18:40
it's all been digitized and somehow something happened.
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There was a glitch and the 13th century had been deleted.
18:50
So, so that's the reality of digitization.
18:53
And I, I was recently, just a few days ago at a freedom
18:55
festival and I was asked to speak on the importance of
18:59
physical versus print of sorry, physical versus digital
19:02
material. And this is one of the reasons
19:05
why the physical is so important.
19:06
That's why it's so great to have your book here physically,
19:10
because I know that it won't go away, right?
19:12
That they won't go in and change it because that's something else
19:15
that's been happening with all of the digital content that's
19:18
out in the world. Publishers, vendors can go in
19:22
and either remove content they can change.
19:25
They can change it if somebody complaints about it.
19:27
We saw that with Roald Dahl, who the language in Charlie and the
19:30
Chocolate Factory was changed because it was I think there was
19:33
a boy that the word was fat describing the fat kid, as you
19:37
know, And then we can't say that anymore.
19:41
So changing language of existing novels.
19:43
But if it's physically in print, nobody can take it away the way
19:47
they can digitally. And we we're seeing this
19:49
constantly with web pages disappearing.
19:52
And and so it's really important to preserve everything that you
19:55
can. You put people can see behind
19:57
me. This is only a small part of my
19:59
book collection. I have three more shelves in
20:01
another room. So but whatever I have hopefully
20:04
will survive. Whatever text it has on it,
20:09
because they, I think it's just so important for us to have lots
20:11
of copies everywhere because that's the only way that we can
20:14
preserve knowledge. And, and I think that's
20:17
particularly true with things that for whatever reason, at
20:20
some point in the future become problematic.
20:23
I think that's the word they use for.
20:25
So are, are, are you the same? Do you?
20:27
Do you have this love of print that you just want to curl up
20:30
with a cup of tea and A and a couch?
20:33
Completely, Diane, yeah, I, I, I am for you can't see any
20:37
bookcases. So they're all actually
20:38
downstairs. They have like a huge one right
20:41
across the living room and everything.
20:43
So. But yeah, of course, the the
20:45
most important because you can easily dip into it.
20:49
It's so much easier than looking up things digitally.
20:53
It's you can refer between books.
20:56
Everything is cross reference. I mean, the thing about also the
21:00
memorizers really is about that she really goes on a mission to
21:05
find a physical book. And this is really.
21:09
That's why I'm kind of yeah. Because I.
21:11
Know now that if you notice in the novel, there's digital
21:15
archives that keep being changed.
21:18
So all this information is constantly being changed, but
21:22
the one thing that can tell the truth about the past, it's about
21:26
the Northern Ireland peace process specifically.
21:28
She goes in to look for this book and finds, finds books on
21:33
this. So, yeah.
21:34
So that's how important it is. It is.
21:37
You cannot change what has been published already.
21:41
Yeah. Yeah.
21:42
And that was actually something that I, I learned in when I did
21:45
my PhD, which was on photojournalism, looking at the
21:50
how at this time, you know, this was 20 years ago, but they were,
21:54
that was only worth trying to convert to digital photography.
21:58
And so the news photographers that I, that I interviewed were
22:01
struggling with as well. Because when something is, you
22:06
know, sitting in a shoe box in your, in your home, like they
22:09
had, you know, all of these photos that especially the
22:11
freelancers that had shoe boxes or the ones that work for major
22:15
newspapers that had large photo libraries where everything is on
22:18
the shelves. And then you know that if even
22:20
if you need to go back to get something historically, because
22:23
something in the news happens, you can go and find it and it's
22:26
on the shelf where it's in the shoe box and, and recirculate it
22:29
if you need to. But what happens with the
22:32
digital photograph is that they're harder to find, right?
22:35
So if you don't have the appropriate words, the language
22:39
once again to search for those photographs that are associated
22:43
with it so that, you know, you covered this rally on this day
22:46
and and these people were present.
22:47
And then if you need to bring that book back later, you know,
22:51
how do you do that? If the words haven't been
22:53
assigned to the photos, there's no way to find them again.
22:56
The problem is that photography and language are like any other
23:00
medium. There are are different
23:02
languages and there's translation that needs to occur,
23:04
right? So the language has to be
23:07
precise that it can be found again.
23:10
But then again, we all use different words to describe
23:12
things that are not words, if that makes any sense.
23:15
Yeah. We do, we do.
23:17
And, and quotes can be misquoted over the years and everything.
23:20
And, and the thing that mean just the basic thing about
23:23
digital is it can be deleted. Whereas books can exist in
23:28
libraries for centuries. And that's a completely
23:32
different reality. Really.
23:34
Yeah. Yeah, it is.
23:35
And with the, the library books, you know, even if you have,
23:39
let's say you have a, a book like a printed book, but it gets
23:43
converted digitally, or if it's what we call born digital, which
23:45
is published digitally, you can still search the word.
23:50
So if you know a few words that are in the book and you can
23:52
search the text and things like, you know, the mainstream search
23:57
engines like Google are pretty good at searching text and they
24:01
can match word for word. But how do you match word for
24:04
image, right? You can't search an image the
24:07
same way you can use a word to search.
24:08
And so then you get into a whole different issue of textual
24:13
language versus visual language, which is also something that's
24:17
really fascinating to me. Like, you know, if you look at
24:20
the cover of your book, this tells a whole story in itself.
24:24
Just looking at the photo. The the was this a painting?
24:28
Was this a photograph? What was what was that?
24:31
And then also the back cover as well, which is also very
24:35
interesting. So what?
24:37
What stories were you trying to tell with those visuals?
24:40
Yeah, it was interesting because it was an AI image and obviously
24:45
I was looking. There was a futuristic novel and
24:49
it was something that I put in to ChatGPT and this was, and a
24:54
friend did the one in the back cover.
24:56
But The thing is about that, yeah, it was.
24:59
I had the idea that the whole image of the novel was, was that
25:04
kind of man without fused with a woman.
25:07
I mean that the the character is really very much, she lives in a
25:12
very masculine world in a way that that there is war all the
25:16
time and she's out at the front line with soldiers.
25:19
So it's she lives in that and also she meets the soldiers.
25:24
So it's very much the fusion of their relationship, but also
25:28
it's the image of the grand commander.
25:32
And the grand commander wants to be all things to all people so
25:36
that there is no need to ever replace them.
25:40
So they want to convey, even though he's a man, he's a man in
25:44
his 50s, he wants to convey this image of two sexes and youth and
25:50
vitality. And so that was really an idea
25:53
of that. But it's up on the like the Big
25:56
Brother in 1984. It's up on the exactly.
25:59
Yeah, exactly. But I was thinking myself.
26:01
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it is interesting to me
26:05
because, you know, it's kind of like, you know, to me, this
26:09
looks like female on one side, male on the other side, right.
26:13
And, and, and so that's telling, you know, there's sort of all
26:16
the blending of identities and this is kind of what we're
26:21
seeing now as well. And, and I don't even know if
26:23
you intended this, but that's what I got out of part of this.
26:26
It's sort of the, the, the lack of individualism, right?
26:31
So we're all sort of blending together.
26:32
We're all supposed to be kind of the, the theme entity that
26:37
believes the same things and thinks the same things that we
26:39
can't think for ourselves. And maybe I'm reading far too
26:41
much. That's what I got out of it,
26:44
actually. Right.
26:47
You know, I guess we all see different things when we read
26:49
that. I guess that's kind of part of,
26:52
of experiencing in any particularly good, well written
26:55
literary piece of work is that we all see different things in
26:59
it. But that's what I thought was
27:00
kind of this, the way the individualism sort of leaves the
27:07
room, right. And, and now we're just kind of
27:10
doing what we're told. And that's kind of how we're
27:12
expected to live right now. And that goes into the the
27:14
cancellations and the freedom of speech is that you're not,
27:17
you're not acting with the, the oneness that they're expecting
27:20
us to act with. And yeah, and I, you know, I, I
27:26
don't know how we kept, this is not something that we've
27:27
discussed previously, but I believe this is something that
27:30
happened in 2020 when they all locked us up.
27:34
And I think this was part of the plan at, in 2020, you know, sort
27:39
of this technocracy took over. If you think about it, we, we
27:43
lost our ability to communicate. We lost our ability to just go
27:47
for coffee. We lost our ability.
27:49
Everything was supposed to be done, you know, in the on the
27:52
screen if you did anything. And, and that cut off our
27:55
ability to communicate, our ability to share ideas, to even
28:00
see our families, all those things.
28:02
And, and I think, I don't think we've quite recovered from that.
28:05
And it was really been when I started to see this, this whole
28:09
thing sort of taking over this oneness of, well, we no longer
28:14
exist as individual stay at home, do as you're told, do
28:18
everything online, which wouldn't have been possible 20
28:20
years before that. So you didn't have the
28:21
infrastructure in place that I think this has all been part of
28:25
it. And people seem to have lost
28:27
their ability in some cases or feel they no longer have the
28:32
ability to, to speak up. And I, and I really think in the
28:35
last five years this has been something that has happened, is
28:38
that we are now just supposed to stay quiet.
28:41
And I don't know if that was your experience of the 2020 era,
28:46
but that's one of the things that I saw happening.
28:50
Definitely, that's what I was saying that I think it is.
28:54
I call it the langdemic instead of the pandemic because our
28:58
language was policed from much more than ever before.
29:02
At that point. They realized the authoritarian
29:04
governments realized that they could completely control us and
29:08
that we wouldn't come out of our houses.
29:11
Uh, so is it? It was a shocking reality to
29:13
realize how quiescent and submissive we are to the state.
29:18
And that is still following now. Yeah, our language was
29:23
controlled from then. So I feel I I do feel that.
29:26
And I also feel that the digital, exactly as you say,
29:29
that was the point that they realized that they could really
29:32
control us digitally. Yeah.
29:34
Yeah, and, and, and the language, you know, like there
29:37
was a meme I shared a few days ago on on Facebook with sort of
29:39
like they were talking to a group of Amish people in this
29:44
little cartoon. And it said, are you worried
29:45
about climate change? And they said no because we
29:47
don't have TV. Yeah, they're.
29:54
One of the fews. Few aren't controlled.
29:57
Yeah, they're not. Told that they're supposed to be
30:00
controlled, but you know, it's, it is interesting though,
30:04
because the language was one of the things that I noticed in
30:07
2020 was, you know, the if you think about the term social
30:10
distancing, the the word social does not imply we have to stay
30:14
away from each other because we might kill each other with a
30:17
so-called deadly virus, right? It's social.
30:20
It's we're not supposed to socialize.
30:23
And so that that message was everywhere.
30:26
I read a lot about the I forget where this comes from.
30:29
You might know, using things in groups of three.
30:32
I think it was Doctor Vernon Coleman that wrote about this
30:35
originally, like the the hand space, space kinds of things
30:39
that they were repeating over and over again, everything in
30:42
trees that that somehow that is something that sticks in our
30:45
minds. So we think hands based and all
30:48
of those little, you know, save the NHS, protect all of these
30:52
things that were, I can't think of them now, but they were sort
30:54
of all over, not only on TV and on the Internet, but even if you
30:59
were allowed to go into a grocery store and you would see
31:01
them all over Tesco and wherever you manage to get out to at the
31:05
time. And so that language was really
31:08
important, as well as the behavioral psychology that Brian
31:13
Garish at UK column was one of the ones who uncovered this idea
31:17
of behavior modification through increasing the fear, increasing
31:22
the threat, the personal threat that was meant to be perceived
31:25
by the public to control us, to make us stay home and and do
31:29
these things. But that's all that all comes
31:31
down to language, doesn't it? Yeah, and.
31:33
I didn't think of that thing about 3.
31:36
So everything is 3, stop the boats, adult female, human,
31:39
everything is. And I didn't actually think of
31:42
that before. And I totally agree that there
31:44
was. I remember I went about the
31:47
climate of fear. I went to the shop and I was in
31:51
the shop. There's nobody else there.
31:53
The radio was on. It was like, get home now the
31:57
radio presenter was saying, and I thought it was in the War of
32:00
the Worlds. And and this was, it was like
32:03
fiction. It wasn't a real world at all.
32:05
To be, to be under that threat that I was a dangerous person,
32:11
you know, suddenly by being out there.
32:13
And it was like, I'm just doing my shopping.
32:16
Yeah, I'm the ultimate criminal here.
32:21
Well, and then, you know, thinking about the language of
32:24
even the the thimbles, right. So when we think about symbols
32:27
as language, that all of the arrows, the one way arrows on
32:30
the floors, remember those where you know you can.
32:33
Get the. Feet, the stand here, the circle
32:36
around it. You know, that's all.
32:38
That's still all the symbols, but it's still language of like,
32:40
stand here, walk this way, don't go that way down the ketchup
32:44
aisle. You know what it is.
32:47
And so somehow this was supposed to save us, right?
32:50
You know, even even the language of, of wearing a mask, right, is
32:54
still, it's a symbol of fear, right?
32:56
So even the, the symbol of, you know, first of all, you're
33:00
removing your individuality by hiding your face.
33:02
But also if you can't. So we've lost our individuality.
33:07
We're also looking at each other, thinking, oh, it's really
33:09
terrifying to breathe. Can't even breathe anymore
33:11
safely because we're going to die of a virus, right?
33:15
That all of these things all tied together.
33:17
It was really funny. I owned one cloth mask that I
33:20
only wore when I was really forced to.
33:22
Eventually I got one of those lanyards that were like, said
33:25
you had an exemption and I would wear those just so people would
33:27
leave me alone. But I had one cloth mask which
33:31
had its own bit of language on it which it said enjoy the
33:34
silence. Great.
33:37
I love some of those sort of like, yeah, thematic masks and
33:42
looking like the Joker mask and things like that.
33:45
There was a lot of comedy actually with that.
33:47
Yeah. But.
33:48
But it was still, I mean, it's still completely, I suppose
33:51
people personalize and individualize their masks, but
33:55
it's still, it's still completely dehumanizing no
33:58
matter what you do. Yeah, yeah, it was a crazy time.
34:02
And umm, also I, I want to say that out of that time, I think
34:07
that wars began. Certainly Putin saw that.
34:11
Probably there wasn't as much attention on him.
34:14
Everyone had gone inwards. There was no out of work, you
34:18
know, because every country was the same.
34:20
There was much happening. This was a global pandemic.
34:23
Nothing was happening that we were looking at Russia and the
34:27
build up. He managed to make the build up
34:30
on the border without a lot of international attention.
34:33
Of course, that was 2022, but there was still the hangover
34:36
from the pandemic that we had become more insular.
34:40
I feel so, umm, so that I, I think, yeah, so I think
34:45
everything, yeah, things could happen wouldn't have happened
34:49
normally but for the pandemic. Politically, it wouldn't have
34:52
happened, right. And.
34:54
And, and things needed to be in place before that could happen.
34:57
So we can see that this was planned, that we had the
35:00
delivery services and the, you know, order your food, order
35:05
your Amazon stuff, whatever, whatever you want to buy.
35:08
But if you think about it, even prior, even in 2010, we we
35:13
didn't have that level of technology for any of this to be
35:17
able to happen to, to tell everyone to do absolutely
35:19
everything sitting at home on their laptop.
35:22
It just, it just would not have been possible.
35:24
But funnily enough, the people who did have to go out to work
35:28
so that the Amazon drivers or the the Tesco workers or whoever
35:31
was that, you know, and part of the food supply chain for, for
35:34
whatever reason, appeared not to have dropped dead.
35:38
And so, yeah, that was a sign. Yeah.
35:45
So I feel like it was, in a way, an attack on the middle class.
35:50
So those of us who do have jobs, we can work at a computer may or
35:56
may not need to go to an office once we have the technology to
35:59
be able to communicate remotely with each other, as we're doing
36:03
right now, unfortunately. But, you know, this would not
36:07
have been possible for people. So when I talked to
36:09
tradespeople, for example, that we're still out, you know,
36:13
fixing people's electricity or making sure the plumbing works,
36:17
a lot of them that I've talked to did not buy into it because
36:21
they were still out there in the world, right.
36:24
So they, they maybe did not have the ability, well, couldn't do
36:28
their job if they stayed at home until they were considered key
36:31
or essential workers. But they were they were they
36:34
also just anecdotally, I don't have any statistics for this
36:37
appear to be 1 to refuse the vaccinations because they were
36:43
out saying, well, nothing's happened to me for the past year
36:46
I've got, but now I'm fine. Why should I put something into
36:48
my body? And a lot of them actually were
36:51
that I've talked to anyway were once he refused to get the
36:55
vaccination, whereas the middle class who were sitting at home
36:58
getting afraid to leave the house for getting these messages
37:02
that we're talking about. What's the language saying, oh,
37:04
I better get vaccinated or I'm going to die.
37:05
You know, even though they were, you know, we were still locked
37:08
up for a while after after the the vaccination program was in
37:12
place, which should have told somebody something, but it
37:14
didn't for some people. So I think it's that those media
37:19
messages are are so influential in people's decisions, obviously
37:23
to do whatever they think they're supposed to do to save
37:26
their grannies or whatever they thought it was going to do for
37:28
them. Yeah.
37:29
And I, I yeah, I think it was a middle class, as you say, the
37:32
working class were out serving, really serving the middle
37:35
classes in that kind of way. Ridiculous.
37:39
But they were having. I was jealous because as a
37:42
writer, yeah, I couldn't get out at all.
37:44
All the theaters were close. It was a disaster for anybody
37:47
who is sort of in that artistic world worlds.
37:51
So yeah, yeah. The things that the.
37:55
Things that happened to the any, any, any creative spaces, you
38:00
know, the music concerts, book talks, you know, anything that
38:05
you, that you would want to do in, in the creative world.
38:07
It was all, it was all gone. I, you know, I was, I was living
38:11
in Edinburgh sort of towards the end of that time period and in
38:14
Glasgow. And so Denver Festival being
38:16
such a major event in the calendar for so many people, and
38:20
that just going away was quite devastating to the economy makes
38:26
us. Realize how much we're sort of
38:29
perilous and a luxury product in in the world, you know, under
38:34
those sort of circumstances. And yet I would also say I am
38:38
keeping going back to the Ukraine war because I think the
38:40
memorizers is based on that. The world in it is based on
38:43
that. But art is one of the most
38:46
important things for them to to uplift themselves from the war.
38:52
And The thing is, we completely forgot that or it was completely
38:56
removed from us. The art, the the that uplifting
39:01
thing. I mean, we were expected to
39:03
batter our cutlery against our pants for the NHL, make our own
39:08
music. You know, It's just so it was
39:12
just sort of like, yeah, again, like childish stuff, but it
39:15
wasn't art and everything. So, yeah, that's what shocked
39:19
me. I think that we were removed
39:22
from society. Yeah.
39:24
Yeah. And it's still, I wouldn't say
39:27
has come back completely. And then I was quite
39:30
disappointed in the artists who started once they started to
39:35
open up for events again to say, well, you have to show proof of
39:37
vaccination to come in. And there were some that did
39:41
that. And these were the people that I
39:43
thought were the the pre spirited creative types that
39:46
which is let's, you know, just get together and make use of the
39:49
whole thing. You have to have your
39:50
vaccination cards get in. You have to, you know, not safe
39:53
otherwise. I was quite disappointed to see
39:56
some of that happening. We had a.
39:57
Big furor in Northern Ireland with Van Morrison going up
40:02
against the health minister. So he was like very dangerous,
40:06
very dangerous. He kept like parroting these
40:10
kind of words to ridicule them. But that was interesting because
40:13
he was under so much attack at the time.
40:15
And yet, yeah, I think, you know, that time is shown that,
40:20
you know, he was pointing out the government autocracy at the
40:23
time. So so.
40:26
Artist did. At least one artist spoke out,
40:28
but the majority of us didn't. I, I didn't either because I
40:32
probably didn't have that voice that he had Van Morrison.
40:36
But I think, yeah, I think it shows how conservative artists
40:41
are. And yeah.
40:44
That's interesting because I, I would have thought or before
40:46
this, I would have thought that they were, that a lot of them
40:49
would be quite the opposite, you know, But I, I was still in the
40:53
university system at the time and I just didn't say anything.
40:58
It was, it was very difficult for me to, to not say anything
41:01
because I was, I'd be on these, you know, these committee
41:05
meetings or whatever with my colleagues and they would be
41:08
sharing their vaccination stories and actually planning to
41:11
take off sick time because they knew that they would be sick
41:14
after they got the jab because they were, everyone was, you
41:17
know, sick. So they said, well, that it's
41:19
I'm going to give it a few days for it to work.
41:22
So I need to plan sick time, obviously working very well.
41:27
Yeah. Yeah.
41:28
I mean, yeah, there was flu. I definitely had a flu symptoms
41:31
after, but I don't think I needed a few days off.
41:35
This is kind of like, yeah, I know.
41:38
Everyone had their own expectations, different
41:41
reaction. Whatever.
41:43
But some people, if they heard other people were getting sick,
41:46
that even if they hadn't had it yet, they were planning days
41:49
off. Because I think partially
41:51
because university life was so demanding, it always is, but it
41:55
was really demanding after this all started because we were
42:00
doing everything online and in a very different way.
42:03
And, and so again, language became even more complicated
42:07
because instead of having a conversation with a student in
42:10
our office for a few minutes, we with all emails or it was all,
42:14
you know, very much more, but much more demanding of time.
42:21
And so if you have any reaction to anything, it, you would have
42:25
been completely worn out, exhausted from any effect that
42:30
it had on, on your immune system if, if you chose to take one.
42:33
So I personally didn't take them, but I was constantly
42:38
covering for people who did take them and were taking off time.
42:40
And then so added to my workload, which is already heavy
42:43
because I wasn't getting sick. And, and so it was, it was the a
42:48
very, very difficult time. And looking back, I'm, I'm just
42:51
kind of glad that I'm out of the system now because I think maybe
42:55
that was, that was a sign for me before, before I got thrown out,
42:59
that maybe I could not have been there.
43:02
Oh. It's interesting what you're
43:03
saying also about the whole your online experiences during that
43:07
time and how hard that was. I mean, this is something that
43:11
we should all be saying to tech companies.
43:14
Online is more time consuming. It's more exhausting for our
43:17
eyes, backs and bodies. You know, we don't want to be
43:21
controlled this way. I don't want this life.
43:24
I want to be in person doing things.
43:28
It's far better for connectivity and networking.
43:32
We were at the conference, as you said, and we made a
43:35
friendship. We would never been able to do
43:36
that otherwise. It's in person is the most
43:39
important thing in life and we need to be kicking back, all of
43:43
us united against these big corporations and saying no,
43:47
we're not living our lives like that.
43:50
Well, it's. But it's, again, they use the
43:51
language to to push this on us, right?
43:53
They say it's convenient, it's fast, it's unique, but they,
43:57
yeah, they. But again, it's the inversion,
43:59
right? They say it is, but we're all
44:00
frustrated and, you know, like, you know, I don't want, I don't
44:03
want to set up an account just to buy something, right.
44:06
Yeah, I. Know it takes ages to buy
44:09
something in an account. Yeah, and, and everything, even
44:12
booking flights and things Yeah. And oh, I can't remember what
44:16
what strange password I had for that.
44:19
My computer hasn't saved it. You know, all of this stuff,
44:23
it's just, it's just problematic and all I want to do is just go
44:28
down a shop and buy it in the same Rd.
44:31
I'm living in when I'm going out for my groceries there and.
44:35
I remember when I was doing all this teaching at home, you know,
44:38
because I was online with my students if, well, I, I'm
44:42
assuming they were there, a lot of them turned off their
44:44
cameras. So I didn't know if they were
44:46
there, if they just like logged in to say they were there and
44:48
went to sleep like I. They were.
44:51
Refusing to turn on the camera. So like frequently talking to,
44:54
you know, 30 blank screens. But then because I was at home
44:59
with my dogs and then so a delivery would come or the the
45:03
post would come and then the dogs would bark as they do.
45:06
And, and so if we got through a whole hour and the dogs didn't
45:09
bark, they would say your dogs OK, because we didn't hear from
45:13
them. Like, yeah, they're fine, just
45:15
didn't have any deliveries for that past hour.
45:19
They're that's how you know they're listening.
45:21
That's it. Yeah.
45:22
That's the only way. They're not interested in what
45:25
you're saying, but they they did.
45:28
Want to see the dog? So I always put dog photos in my
45:30
in my lecture slides just to like keep them away.
45:35
Oh dear. Yeah, yeah.
45:36
But. It, it is about that, it's about
45:39
when we're talking about communication that I really did
45:43
find that it became more complicated because there was
45:48
not only the recording, there was not only the, how do I
45:54
explain this, just kind of that different presence that you have
45:56
to have when you're online versus when you're in person.
45:59
There's just a different feel about it, right?
46:02
And then we started to find out that we had to create
46:04
transcription because if there were, you know, students that
46:08
had disabilities, where they, they had hearing difficulties
46:11
that we had to learn how to do transcription.
46:14
And it's, it's all very automated now because again,
46:18
this has all progressed so quickly in the past five years,
46:20
But in 2020, it wasn't that way. So we had to find different
46:24
alternatives to do all this. And people think, well, this,
46:26
this is not to do with my subject area.
46:28
You're making me do all these extra things that are not even
46:31
part of it. And the university at the time
46:34
was actually saying, well, if you don't have a laptop with a
46:36
camera, record your lectures on your phone.
46:39
Like how personal is that, right?
46:41
And, and, and students are paying fees of thousands of
46:44
pounds per year to have a lecture recorded on their
46:46
phones. So all of this language, again,
46:50
was meant to, I believe, suppress us, meant to suppress,
46:55
you know, everything that we were doing.
46:56
And the language was all central to all of it.
46:59
And, and I think that is still, well, sort of demonstrated in
47:04
your book. And I, I really hope that people
47:05
read it so because I don't want to give, I don't want to give it
47:07
away because then they nobody will buy the book.
47:09
But yeah, I really hope that people read it because it does
47:13
have some really important messages in it and it's very
47:16
entertaining as well. So we just have a few minutes
47:20
left. I don't know if you want to
47:22
maybe talk a little bit about your book, kind of do your own
47:25
promotion for it, or if if you want to leave it as a secret for
47:28
people or No, no I. Don't want to leave it as a
47:30
secret really it is about there's so many ideas in it and
47:34
it's impossible to cover it. But there is the whole idea, the
47:38
memorizers, even the title is about memory and how that is
47:42
removed, how it can be removed by authoritarian governments.
47:49
And of course, I have a physical de memorisation as well, which
47:53
is interesting in it. But I think also, I think the
47:56
world in it. I want to talk about the that
47:59
whole kind of thing. We were talking about messaging
48:02
and when I was in Ukraine, one of the things that when you're
48:06
on a train, you see you're given this thing about nuclear war and
48:12
what you do in it and how you undress and and get washed and
48:17
everything. And all of these things were
48:19
being pumped out and they terrified me, you know, So it's
48:24
quite amazing, you know, the control that can be the
48:28
terrifying. And then we knew that from
48:29
COVID. But this is even a more extreme
48:32
one that you're all yeah, OK, yeah, fevers or or viruses are
48:37
really bad, but this is like a nuclear war is now being.
48:41
So that's really also how I got the idea that there would be a
48:44
nuclear war in our I, I, I believe that's totally possible,
48:51
umm, because of escalation in the Ukraine war and between
48:55
America and things like that. So, but it's, it's that fear.
49:00
So I felt a lot of fear and the sound of sirens really frighten
49:03
me in Ukraine as well. That is a real if you, if you're
49:07
subject to that all the time, it is a hysteria that grows in you.
49:13
And, and I know it's to protect people, but it's still, you feel
49:16
controlled because, yeah, because these are signs that you
49:22
kind of automatically flinch at. You know, it's very upsetting to
49:26
your central nervous system to live in Ukraine right now.
49:31
And I think that was partly to relate it back to COVID.
49:34
That's what happened to us. Yeah.
49:37
We're kept. No wonder the new generation is
49:39
so anxiety Written. Written they are they.
49:43
Are Yeah, I, that reminds me of the early 90s when I was a
49:48
teenager and the the first Gulf War was going on and my mother
49:55
had CNN on all the time, right. And they were doing this
49:58
coverage of the invasion and, you know, when they were
50:01
supposedly covering the, you know, they, they have all the
50:05
air raid sirens going on all the time.
50:08
And I'll try to find this leak. If I remember it, I'll put this
50:12
in the write up for people to watch that it turned out that
50:14
some of that was fake, that they, they're showing the air
50:18
raid sirens and saying, oh, and then they then they would like
50:20
think the camera was off. And then they, they actually got
50:23
some of the footage of them showing them.
50:25
Oh, this is not they're, this is actually a background.
50:27
They're not really in Riyadh. They're not really getting blown
50:29
up, but they're using this to to create the fear.
50:34
And, you know, Brian Garish on on UK column has done an amazing
50:39
job of the past few years of explaining exactly what's going
50:42
on in Ukraine and how devastating it it truly is.
50:45
But then all of the propaganda surrounding it that we get over
50:50
here and it's create, you know, kind of what that's all creating
50:54
for everyone. And as well as the amount of
50:56
money that gone into it. Unfortunately, the lives have
50:59
been lost, lots of money has been wasted, lots of propaganda
51:03
to support all of this. So again, that goes back to
51:06
language, right? And and kind of how we're being
51:09
manipulated. Yeah, yeah, certainly.
51:12
I mean, yeah, that, yeah, it hasn't all the billions haven't
51:17
worked out, even though I, I believe we should support
51:21
Ukraine in this because Russia is a terrible part, but it
51:26
hasn't fully worked out. And The thing is that, yeah,
51:28
we're still in a terrible situation, situation with it.
51:30
Umm, and I, another thing I wanted to say about the whole
51:34
digital thing in Ukraine is that you have this, umm, you have an
51:39
app that shows you when, uh, Russia is launching aircraft
51:45
with missiles and but you don't. This is things that people
51:49
constantly look at because obviously they're frightened.
51:52
They want the information, they want to know if they should go
51:54
in shelters, But the trouble is that this is going on like 24
51:58
hour 7 this. And sometimes when the aircraft,
52:03
you don't know where they're going.
52:05
They could go to your city, they could go anywhere.
52:07
So you're on not, you're at an unnatural height of fear all the
52:12
time without knowing. No information can tell you
52:15
that. So the apps can be a kind of
52:18
productive into absolutely terrifying you, you know, So
52:22
sometimes I feel that technology can give you information, but it
52:26
can give you unnecessary overload that can totally wear
52:31
you dine. Yeah.
52:33
It's all the the phone notifications that come in
52:35
constantly, right? That you have to continuously
52:37
turn off on any app that you download where it's just the
52:41
constant reminders and trying to sell you things and all, all the
52:46
stuff that you have to sort of actively go in and turn off if
52:49
you don't want to be constantly interrupted by your phone.
52:53
Not sure if you've been aware of the recent, well, they did this
52:57
the first time a couple of years ago, the emergency sirens that
53:00
went on that, you know, if you go off at any time and if we
53:05
need to alert you to something, your phone is going to start
53:08
screaming at you in the middle of the night kind of thing.
53:12
And that's, that's just here. So I can't imagine that because
53:15
that that sort of the reaction that people get sort of that
53:21
that people feel like they can't constantly need to be checking
53:23
out. We get, we get in some cases
53:25
that have been researched, the dopamine reaction, for example,
53:28
by playing online games that people get this they they need
53:31
that dopamine fix because it makes them feel better.
53:33
And that's what gets people going back to playing online
53:35
games. I can't imagine what that would
53:38
feel like to constantly be checking an app to see when the
53:41
planes are coming. I I just, I can't imagine it as
53:44
well as the real life fear of the the threat that is actually
53:47
happening on the ground. And then you have the app and
53:50
you can check and see. We don't where's the plane now?
53:52
How how far am I away? That just sounds unbelievable to
53:56
me. Yeah.
53:57
It certainly is and and but the whole this yeah, apps are so
54:02
intrusive with store MO and did you have one at store MO and did
54:06
you have a one of the those beeps on your phone?
54:10
No, I had. Mine turned off.
54:12
All right, yes, Yeah, That was another sort of terrifying
54:15
moment because I didn't know actually what was happening.
54:19
So you're thinking, could this be a 3 minute warning for a
54:22
nuclear bomb? Yeah.
54:24
Exactly. So we.
54:28
Just have a few minutes left. I've really enjoyed this
54:31
conversation. I hope you have as well.
54:33
But yeah, I wanted to make sure, you know, is there anything
54:36
else? I always give my guest the
54:38
option to talk about anything else.
54:40
Is there anything else that we haven't covered?
54:41
So is there anything else that you'd like to share with the
54:43
audience? Well, yeah, I'm just going to
54:46
keep talking about the book, Diane, because absolutely it.
54:49
Is it's what I'm here for? I'm gonna, yeah, Promote it to
54:52
the hilt, of course. Yeah.
54:54
The fact is, yeah, it it it's a human story.
54:58
I mean, The thing is, you know, we know about dystopian fiction
55:04
can sometimes be a little bit over.
55:06
You're kind of thinking more about the technology and how in
55:10
the future, because drone warfare is a huge thing in the
55:13
memorizers, of course, because that's what we've, the
55:17
technology has changed for that. But I think the most important
55:21
thing is the human aspect. I mean, it's 1984.
55:27
It's Winston and Julia. It's the kind of thwarted love
55:31
affair that sounds like Romeo and Juliet to Winston and Julia.
55:35
But it is there is that kind of. To.
55:38
Humanize the future is a kind of really important thing and I
55:44
think it's this quest of of my central character Joe Elliot, a
55:49
journalist who wants to find out why she was on the front line,
55:53
why she was injured, all of these things that make us human
55:57
and our quests in life what of discovery.
56:02
And I think now I think particularly in this society
56:06
where things are crazy and I think we need to discover things
56:13
and and speak out about them. And that is really the impulse
56:16
inner, you know. And, and yeah, I said that came
56:19
from my own cancellation. We discussed that earlier.
56:22
And all of those things is about being able to freely speak out
56:26
and not repress your own thoughts in society and words.
56:32
And I think that is the most important thing.
56:34
So that that that was the main propulsion for the book is to
56:39
say I'm tired of being controlled.
56:42
I need to break free. Yeah.
56:44
And. And, and I think that this has
56:45
come out through our, our whole discussion because we've seen
56:49
how this is like permeated every aspect of life.
56:52
And, and I think that your book does such a great job of sort of
56:56
encapsulating all of that. I, I just, I really can't
56:59
recommended enough to our audience.
57:01
So I do hope everyone runs out and buys a coffee after they've
57:05
listened to this conversation because I, I think they think
57:08
that maybe people realize how much they're being controlled,
57:11
Even those of us who are kind of awake to it.
57:15
When you see it coming into every aspect of, of life in
57:20
2025, you and I have been exposed to it to the extreme and
57:25
to the fact that impacted our careers.
57:27
But just in everyday decisions that were being manipulated by,
57:33
by words and language. And, and I, and I hope that when
57:37
people read it, not if people read it, but when people read
57:39
it, that they will maybe start to consider as much as possible
57:44
to kind of just, I would encourage everyone to take a
57:46
step back and think about how this is just infiltrated every
57:51
aspect of our lives. And even if we don't, even if we
57:55
don't think we're affected, we still are.
57:58
So yeah, I, again, I want to encourage everyone to read it.
58:02
So again, I'll just hold it up one more time.
58:04
This is with my Jenkinson. Here's the back.
58:09
Yeah, Yeah. All about freedom.
58:13
About freedom, yeah. And liberty from, from what
58:16
we're going through right now, yeah.
58:19
Absolutely, and art is such a powerful way to express is the.
58:24
Best way to express it? There's no other there's no
58:27
other medium that could possibly express this because words
58:30
actually are the thing that control.
58:32
People think it's images, but actually the words are much
58:36
more, even though I think they are, because they can be
58:40
manipulated more. I mean, I suppose we have things
58:43
like AI that can manipulate images now and deep fix, but I
58:46
think words are the ones in which it it comes from us.
58:52
We control the words and that's what is so frightening if we
58:56
become controlled and we can't control those words.
58:59
So therefore word control is a lot more dangerous for us.
59:04
Yeah. So it's really about being
59:07
conscious about the words that you're using, but yet not being
59:12
obsessed about it because the words that you use can be used,
59:18
right. We take offence much more
59:20
everything today. So therefore the words are more
59:23
important than that we use. So I.
59:26
But but yet don't police yourself.
59:29
And it's that balance. So how do you do the words that
59:32
you aren't going to offend too much, but without policing
59:35
yourself? And that is there's so there's
59:37
so many balances going on that we're all checking and our
59:40
brain, even when we're having conversations, we're checking
59:43
that. I, I'm checking it with you.
59:44
Sometimes, you know, I can't help that because I'm so
59:47
conditioned now, right? Right.
59:50
No, yeah, no, that's a really good point.
59:52
And to end on, I think because, but let's just yeah, let's all
59:57
just take a moment, take a step back, think about are we being
1:00:01
controlled? Yes, we are and and and what
1:00:03
what can we do differently in this world about it?
1:00:05
Because I I always say that strength in numbers that the
1:00:09
more of us that realize. What's happening there are of us
1:00:12
that that make steps against that in whatever ways that we we
1:00:16
can in our own lives. And there are so many ways to do
1:00:19
it. And and so, Rosemary, I think I
1:00:21
want to thank you again for writing such a brilliant novel
1:00:25
and it's been a treat. It's been a treat to be on with
1:00:28
you and and have an open an open and free spirited discussion.
1:00:34
Well, you know, and I think that this all comes through in your
1:00:36
writing as well. And thank you to everyone who's
1:00:40
who's joined us today for this conversation.
1:00:43
Thank you, Rosemary, for your time.
1:00:44
Again, this is Zion Rasmussen Mcatty with UK column.
1:00:47
Thank you, everyone, and have a wonderful day.
1:00:50
Thank you.