Latest / Putting Is Fun / Scottie Scheffler's Putting Coach Built an App. Will You Use It? | Ep.14

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Scottie Scheffler's Putting Coach Built an App. Will You Use It? | Ep.14 · Putting Is Fun

• speaker-1: Classic John Rooter, you can find your center, be speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: straight shooter, train yourself to respect the three footer. Bring out your Scotty or that new fango lab. Your time rollin' puts will surely be fair. Putt, putt, putt, it's just like it seems. You can drift away and chill in a dream. Putt with your rose, we'll soak up the sun-free vitamin D is good for everyone. I'm just spitting facts. Putting is fun. speaker-0: Yes, it is, folks. Ha ha. Brian Mandela from New Orleans, Louisiana. And the speaker-1: John Ortega from Costa Mesa where we're melting. Almost as hundred speaker-0: What's almost a hundred? How about that? speaker-1: It was hundred yesterday. It's hot here. speaker-0: You know, the hottest day I ever taught was in Minneapolis, Min you know, right outside of Minneapolis, Minnesota in the summertime is like one three the whole day. There speaker-1: And speaker-0: with Brad Pluth. So what's our show today, sir? speaker-1: We're gonna be talking about putting apps from two of the more notable putting instructors on the tour. One of them, the king of all putting instructors, at least at the moment, Phil Kenyon. And then also Derek Ueda. I call him Ueda, I think it's pronounced Ueda, but that's kind of potato patato. speaker-0: So I think it was ooh like and then yay like yay saints duh. Ooh yeah duh. But whatever. speaker-1: I I I've calling UAA forever, so U Eda's new on me. But both of those guys are very skilled putting coaches and they both came out with an app that's gonna help golfers that for some reason the guys that are DIY guys, it's gonna really help those guys, you know, organize their putting and their putting practice and then that's gonna help transfer into the golf course. So better scoring s more fun. speaker-0: So let's let's let's talk about Derek Uyeda. Quick little background on him. How long has he been like, you know, I I've heard his name for maybe inside of five years. Has he been a a a guy for for longer than that? And I just speaker-1: for sure. For sure. He was really tight with Carl Weltie. Part speaker-0: Yes, sure. speaker-1: of the Carl Weltie Jim McClain tr family tree, kinda like your part of the Ben Doyle, or s I guess you start out with Homer Kelly Ben Doyle. Yep. Whoever else down there. speaker-0: Yes. He worked for did he work for McLean? speaker-1: Not a hundred percent sure. Sounds as though. They they're they're homies for sure. Well it's really tight with Carl Welty, who is the godfather of speaker-0: Who passed away, but but but was the the godfather of videoing golfers, basically. Right. He was ahead way ahead of his time. And so tell me about tell me about the app. What's it called? Whoosh, speaker-1: It's called Whoosh. speaker-0: not whoosh. speaker-1: Whoosh, okay, and okay. Whoosh. I speaker-0: Maybe it's wood. speaker-1: mean two O's. W O O S H. Whoosh. Whoosh. Whoosh. Yeah. And and it's not out yet. It's in beta testing. What he sent to me was a video of, you know, the the trailer, if you want to call it that. Okay. Somebody speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: so hits somebody's hitting a putt and it'll tell him tell whether the read was not good or The read was good and you hit missed it left of your read you you maybe you nominate the read, meaning you call it out, it's gonna be four ounces fair four inches out from the edge. And then you hit the putt, it'll tell you you pulled it or you pushed it. It tracks stats, patterns. That would be if you're starting at left or or right, on right to left or left to right. speaker-0: This is obviously in practice. Not not it's not it's not gonna do this to you on the course. 'Cause you can't set the phone up on the speaker-1: Well well he says he says that it's it's gonna track stats, so it it'll probably have something you could do afterwards, such as speaker-0: I had a twenty footer on number one at at Oak Harbor for Parr and and and and I three putted. speaker-1: All of that. And then it says it'll it'll record from every distance and all breaks. It'll have games, coaches can track students, putting foot fitting component. He says lots of things. But so what what I could glean from the video, somebody's hit in a putt, it shows the start line, so that's important. And it'll show what the the person pulled it a little bit and missed by a little bit. So it's like the reason you missed that one to the left was you you started there. So then then it's a matter of understanding as a coach or as a player, did you just aim it there or did you pull it? So I I don't know if it goes into that much detail, but at least we'll tell you this is the line and you didn't hit it or you did hit it. And it'll track some some stats. So so something like that. I mean you could do s a lot of this yourself if you were a really you know astute golfer and a DIY guy. Somebody that does aim point or decade or any of those analytics apps, th they they probably have something like that or so they're not the only ones out there, but each one of them's gonna have their own you know, flavor of how they they look at tracking putts and and helping you, you know, understand what your tendencies are and how you can improve those tendencies. speaker-0: Then the second one is two guys, not just one. speaker-1: Yes. So Phil Canyon, who's known as w the top putting coach on tour, for good reason. He works with his best work at least recently was with Scotty Scheffler. So Scheffler went from being a hundredth or thereabouts in putting to fifth or something like that in Strokescane putting. speaker-0: The year he the year he was the highest up he was. I don't think he was fifth let this year. speaker-1: No, I think he was. Look it up. Great. speaker-0: That's great. speaker-1: Top ten. Now, sometimes the the Stokes putting statistic is a little you know, it doesn't tell the story completely. It tells tells a good story though. So let's say if you have thirty footers, a bunch of thirty footers, and you hit him to two feet and you you tap in a two footer, you're not gonna get as many points as if you make a bunch of six to eight footers. So if you make six to eight footers, you're gonna get half a stroke or thereabouts over and over and over. And so your strokes kinda gonna go up. So either whether you chipped it there and that was your putt that you made, or you hit it close and you made the putt, it's it's gonna reflect that, you know, you're a better putter. Now, if you make a thirty foot or a forty footer, it goes way up. There's a little bit of like it's it's volatile. It's volatile. But it but it it does measure something, but it I don't know that it's yeah. speaker-0: No, I gotcha. Now now now for the folks that don't know, Phil Kenyon became well known because he was Harold Swash's protege, or he had some success with a player and then that was the I don't remember. I just remember meeting Mr. Mr. Swash at a PGA show. He was with Yes Putters, right? Is that correct? speaker-1: Seag Groove. He was a C Groove guy. speaker-0: Seagroove guy. Right. And and I had a I had a Seagroove product. And then I then I heard of Phil. what was his fur I know there was a he had a really good pro you know su student early on and that's why his his his stock went up. It's usually how it works. speaker-1: I don't know who his first student was that was pretty good, but I know that they had on the European tour, a lot of good putters over there. what was the guy's name? Don't it? He also he used a yes putter. I'm trying to think of his name. It'll flash through my brain here and speaker-0: So so but but but acknowledged for the last several years as sort of the Butch Harmon, you know, the undisputed, you know, in the media, king of of putting coaches. speaker-1: For sure. Even David Orr, who's probably the top researcher, I I'd not say probably, he is the top researcher in putting and and a great putting coach himself, but he just doesn't like the grind being on the on the regular tour or on the PGA tour or any of the tours, he recognizes Phil Kenyon as being the best putting coach. That carries a lot of weight because David doesn't doesn't give props out very speaker-0: Yeah, well no, I mean, yeah, if you if you're a if you're a a high end guy and you give another high end guy, it means more, I think. So he's doing this with Eduardo Molinari, not Francesco, who's the former open champion. The Eduardo, who's a really good player in his own right, hadn't won a major, won several European tournaments, didn't win on the regular tour, the US tour, but is also well known, really smart cat. Well known for doing stat work. Most notably, I wanna say, for the European Ryder Cup team. speaker-1: Exactly. So their their their app is called Captured and they're gonna be doing a lot of the same things, you know, recognizing patterns, giving practice protocols. there there's something on Phil's page on on Instagram that shows Eduardo going through, you know, some of the re repetitions of what he does daily. So he has hit hits through a putting gateway on Phil's template and then he g he does like seven to thirteen footers, and he tracks each each of the puts that he made it or missed it. And then he would categorize the miss by if he misread it, if he, you know, stroked poorly, whatever whatever it might have been that caused the miss. And it also does something that where he tests his ability to do aim point. So he'll throw a T down and he'll straddle that that's the T and come up with a percentage of break and see how good he is at each of those percentages. right to left, left to right and marks down where, you know, he was lacking, let's say. So there's both of those apps are they're gonna help people start thinking a little bit more critically and being able to start speaker-0: Let's be be clear that neither one of them out right now. No. speaker-1: No, they're they're real close. They're real close. But th the s something like this gets you started and you could stay on it. But in even if you did for six months or a year and then you said, Okay, I got I got the gist of it, I'll do it on my own, that it'd be helpful for for sure. So some of the people just don't like showing up and, you know, paying somebody such as myself or Preston Combs or whoever it might be, David Orr. you probably can't get an audience with you or Ueda. or or Kenyan for less than a thousand dollars. I think U8 is a thousand an hour or more. And Kenyon's probably not gonna take you, it doesn't matter how much money you have, 'cause he's he's getting a percentage of Scotty Shufflers. And that's probably a pretty good amount of money. speaker-0: Sounds good. So so you do what what is your and and there's some other ones out there and we could, you know, we're we're not in the advertise everybody else's apps business. But you know, these are the two that everybody's talking about in the putting world. What what what do you think? Do you think that it it's a good thing that people can you see the regular golfer who has a little time to practice their putting? going through the, you know, using an app to to more or less not even work on their stroke that much, just practice. speaker-1: Yes. Yes. It's like I said, I think it's important for the any golfer to understand what their biases are, like what their tendencies are, if they aim right, it aim left, their past left, or what whatever it might be, to hit it off the toe. Now I t you know, there there's a scientist from Canada that says it doesn't matter where you hit it on the face, it's more important that you get the speed right, which I'm I I I couldn't like put my mind around because if you hit it low on the heel or you hit it high on the toe and you're not hitting the sweet spot. It's gonna be hard to have this good speed control. So he said just speed control what's matter, doesn't matter where you hit it on the club. To me, that makes zero sense. speaker-0: In that the whole reason why the spider type head, right? The modern mallet, you know, not the Odie Crispin, that's making a comeback. the but the the square big-headed mallet, in the whole reason, more or less, is because speed control on off-center hits is way better than a answer style head. speaker-1: Heel and toe, not blade. We're we're d destroying destroying that that that verbiage that's that's we call what we call a heel and blade. I mean it's Arnold Palmer blade or a ja classic John Reuter. Speaking of goes about the same distance, you know, coming up after we're done talking about training your putting, I'll we'll talk about a putter that's designed for that. So if you hit it off heel or toe, we'll you we'll hold that for later. speaker-0: Absolutely. speaker-1: But so so when it comes to let's say say you wanna embark on becoming a better putter and you don't wanna get one of the apps, you you can do things like get a chalk line, find a straight putt. You could just get a cheap rule or excuse me, level and find a straight putt, get a chalk line, hit some putts, recognize whether your tendency is to hit right or left. You know, if you have a video camera that's on the ground or you have a s a short little tripod, you can see whether you're aimed reasonably well or not. And you could see if your path went hard left or hard right. And you start like zeroing in on that on your own. But that that usually takes a little bit of, you know, know how and also let's say desire. So so there are things you can do you can do for that. And even I think I talked about this on previous show. If you wanted to nominate meaning guess a break, you could use an aiming stick, an alignment stick or a golf club, you know, an iron. And put it down in the direction you think you need to start the putt to make it. Put a ball just beside that and hit putts. And I usually recommend that you put the stick on the high side, which are on a right to left putt, if you're a right handed player, the stick would be farther away from you than the ball. And on a left to right, vice versa. The stick would be closer to you. speaker-0: And so so so what you're saying to to to to state our original case here is that there's a couple of apps on the way out that are from two of the top five worldwide fighting coaches. speaker-1: And deservedly. Both of those guys are very studied and very accomplished. They they you that the proof's in the pudding, their players putt good. speaker-0: Yeah. You know, f fame famous putting coaches. We say okay, we'll call it that. And and not not I wasn't trying to throw any shade at all. And but but I'm just saying for for folks that have no idea who either one of them are, it's not like, you know, lead better rolling off your tongue. So you got you got these two guys, famous putting coaches, and more or less the app is gonna tell you if you use it, what happened. After you made a stroke. Okay. And then the that we can talk about in a little bit what we what we think about how many people would use it out of a hundred, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But now while while we're on the app thing, I wanted to get to this. There's a couple of apps out there that actually try to look at what the putter did, right? Including one by Quintech. Is this true? speaker-1: Quintech has has an app out there. I haven't investigated it. I have a Quintech machine myself, but I haven't really looked into speaker-0: Cause how much money? speaker-1: I think the one I have is t was twelve thousand. I bought it used from speaker-0: So it so it's it's the top of the line in the business and it measures roll and stuff, and let's not go into weeds on this. So they have an app. I think I've seen video of the app doing video, where like it was an iPad and it was over the putter. You know, you have it on you have to have on some kind of tripod to hold it up and aim it down. And it it more or less tried to show you what your arc was and where, you know, what what your face rotation was. It doesn't have the greatest reviews online. So the real question here, this is this is the the meat of the show here. There's apps that tell you how to practice and can track what you did after you made a stroke when you're practicing. And then do some stats on your golf rounds putting. And then there's an app or two that tries to tell you. what the putter did during the stroke. Out of a hundred guys that tee off at Costa Mesa, how many people are gonna go in the very good practice putting train at Costa Mesa and set any of this up? speaker-1: Out of a hundred? speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Two. speaker-0: Two. Yeah, that's gotta be kind of the number. speaker-1: But th they should do either use one of these apps or do something. But I see people just out there whacking putts, which is great. They're out there rolling putts. You're gonna get something out of that rather than not putt at all. speaker-0: Yeah, that's that's that's the minimum. Putting is fun. Recommends the first recommendation is putt. speaker-1: For sure. speaker-0: You know actually like not just on the golf course, off the golf course. speaker-1: Sure. But if you look at the best players in the world and the ones that are second and third best, let's call the PGA tour players the best players. Let's call the Corn Ferry Tours and the ones the sub tours, the second group of them, let's say the third are the college players that aren't Jackson Coven or whatever his name is. Yeah. They'll be using a John Ortega groove board. speaker-0: Canyon Canyon templates. speaker-1: All all of the above. They're they're they're using speaker-0: Eight Pell's putting track. speaker-1: mostly the putting tutor, but that one's kind of fallen out of favor because he's not around put pushing it. But I'd say the UEDA putting plates and the Kenyan physio putt mats, those are the ones I see the most out on the PGA tour. And I also see the eye line putting mirror. See that one lot too. So those are the probably the three most used putting training aids. But I see a lot of guys with the aiming stick or their their caddy or their coach holding an aiming stick above their ball. Or or a elevated string. speaker-0: Here's what I think. Just I, you know, I I did the investigation that I could do, like anybody listening to the show can and you know, use the chat bots or your favorite, you know, search engine. And you'll see some video and you'll see some, you know, tease on on this stuff. If you're the kind of person that is into structured practice, not for everybody, but I'd say get give one of them a whirl, right? Because you know, now I would say most people are not gonna use it. I think they would be much more likely to use it if it told them what they were doing wrong. Right? They just want to know I'm not making any putts. Why? Why am I not making putts? You also have a have to have a place to do it, right? Not every golf course has a big enough practice putting green that if you set up Like I was shocked, A. First of all, Shinnocock did not have it does not have that big of a practice plotting ring. I mean, it's way smaller than English Turns. Okay. It's you know, it's an old school course. Most of them are like that. But the amount of paraphernalia on the green at the US Open that we were both at, you were there with Jake, was the all-time high that I've ever seen, not being, you know, on tour from week to week. I just thought You know, not every golf course is gonna dig you setting up a whole bunch of or anything on their putting green. Now I guess if you're a member and there's a couple of greens and you're not in anybody's way, or there's a public course that that is not being used right now by U Oaks, City Park. I really don't like the name. City Park golf course is a mile point two w in the direction my finger is pointing. Or a little shorter than that if you can cut some corners. And right now it's been raining for a couple of days and it's stopped. You can put all day and you you have a million square feet that's not that big. But I mean it's twenty what's a what's a big putt? What's the putting green at Costa Mesa? speaker-1: Hundred and twenty feet that way, north south, and fifty feet east west. Yeah. speaker-0: So so this this the you know, the green at at City Park slash Bayorgs. Say is is that big or bigger? And that like nobody's gonna mind at a at a place like either one's a pay as you go golf course. If you went over and set up a little station and had your little but you can do damage to putting greens, right? You ca you you ha if you're gonna stand in one place, you'll see tour players standing on a towel, right? They'll put a towel down. If they're gonna hit a million putts from one from one place. I I'm being realistic. I think it's great if you d did this. I think if you did any kind of protocol that's well thought out and you practiced it, you ought to get a little bit better. What do you do on like pe there are people that can't putt left the right putts and make them? Can't. speaker-1: Sure. speaker-0: I used to have a strategy for that. I would aim further left and push it because I always felt like I was, you know, helping the, you know, pulling it into the break. Which by the way, is how David Toms basically won most of his money in golf. Like like he early on when we first started working in the late eighties and I caddied for him a lot, and you know, it was unbelievable our early success as a caddy teacher slash player, you know, thing. I would like give him reads like and there was no aim point. I I I was never an under reader. But I would give him a read and then he would put it, you know, the way I thought, you know. And he would make a lot of putts because he's a great putter. But when I cattted for him years and years later, totally unsuccessfully in South Korea at a big tournament there. And then, you know, like 35 holes into the tournament, I realized that he basically tells me, okay, if you tell me 15-foot putt and it breaks two balls to the right, he just aims at the hole and pulls it two balls. I couldn't believe that. That's what I tell people not to do. And he won 49 million official doing that. So but he knows his tendencies is the point. And the apps will will will help you figure that out in in a way that probably you you won't remember as well as you think. Correct? speaker-1: Hundred percent. And that's w that's even players that don't have those apps, tour players, they they keep track of that. And and they know speaker-0: Jake, Jake, Jake, Jake's not using anybody's app. speaker-1: Not that I know of. The only one he does anything like that with is Corey when he gives him these little combines that he does. But he keeps track. He keeps track. speaker-0: So he has a he has a performance coach. speaker-1: Yes. speaker-0: And the performance coach says, what we're gonna do here today, we're gonna put these 30 footers and we're gonna try to miss them all on the left and make them or something like that. Can you imagine Corey or any of these guys? That's that's something that I would do if I was a performance coach. Am I just that's the reason why I'm not a performance coach? Let's put 30 footers. You can't have any of go on the low side. They all have to stay on the high side or go in. If you you gotta do ten push ups if you miss on the low side. I mean, d does does anybody think that way or I'm just a a alone not? speaker-1: I don't know if they think exactly like that, but I know personally I used to have a game that was called High Side. This kid came to me, he'd won the the Long Beach Open, the California State Open, but at USC. He came to me, he said, I keep missing on the low side. What do I need to do? I said, Miss on the high side. Really? So he came up with this drill, right on the spot. He had eight golf balls out on the green. So I said, if you hit high side and you miss, but you make a comebacker, you get one point. If you miss on the low side, Negative two points. If you make it on the high side, you get plus two points. And he scored negative for a while until till he played high enough. And there it was. And he just had something that it's incentivized him to hit it on the high side. So s sometimes just doing something as simple as that can work. Just having a training protocol that helps you understand your tendencies. And even though he was trying to hit it on the high side, he kept hitting on the low side. It's like, see? There you go. So we've got to hit it higher and Make it die into the hole or hit it on that same line, hit it harder. It's just something that's not going to make it on the low side. Because the low low side keeps getting farther away from the hole. speaker-0: Yeah, and and and and the and the whole like when somebody hits a putt, they're practicing on the putting green. Could be even be, you in a in a putting lesson with me. And they hit a twelve footer, and it's, you know, just a you know, four inch break. So they have a twelve foot putt, very little break, but it breaks, you know, straight in's gonna miss. And they hit the putt, they miss. Let's say they miss low. Where do you think you were aimed? couple inches out. First of all, that well, when it ain't anywhere near that. And then the second of all is it, where do you think the ball started? You might as well be asking a Mishka Bibble. People have no idea where they aimed one and two, because you're not really in that good a place. Aiming would be easy if you got, you know, behind it on the ground and you held the putter like eye level and you you kind of periscoped it like that. It would be easy. But it's not easy to aim because you're on the side and the eyes are cockeyed, all this kind of stuff. And then when you hit the putt. Because you're you're you know, most people putting, like, by the way, ninety-nine point nine nine nine percent are watching at least sort of the ball, if not the putter. They're watching either the putter. Ninety-nine point nine nine nine nine percent of everybody who's played golf today is watching either the ball, the putter, or both. Not the whole, by the way. They're not looking At the hole. There are people who look at the hole. It is such a small percentage. It's, you know, non-existent. So what I'm saying is, let's say you're one of the normal people that are if you look, look, if you want to look at the clubhouse and you make more butts, do it. But what I'm saying is you're watching the ball get hit more or less from one view, and the ball is taken off on another view. And knowing exactly where that started, because you're gonna kind of pick it up a little further out, is not that easy, is it? speaker-1: Not for most people, but people that practice a lot and know their tendencies, they they can tell right when they hit it. I mean, I I I sometimes I'll putt with somebody and as soon as I hit it I go, That's too far right. And I miss it by that much on the right. And you can tell. speaker-0: You ever watch the putter and not the ball on purpose? speaker-1: No. speaker-0: Last I ever put it. speaker-1: I don't even know personally what I watch. I I just look down, it's like a like a blur down there. And I just make the ball go. That's why it registers in my mind. I'm sure everybody has their own way of thinking about it, but I think I'm looking at the ball when I hit it. I'm pretty sure I don't twist my head before I hit it. So I know where the ball is, but I d I don't really think about where the putter is or where the ball is. I just butt. speaker-0: So I have this eye problem in general. And I think it's not a new thing, and it's not that uncommon. Like I played with a student yesterday. Sometimes what we'll do, we'll do the lesson for a couple hours, and then we'll we'll play as many holes as we can get in in the time. One of the courses on Trackman virtual golf. And then I get to see, I see that thing we were working on, you didn't do it on that shot, blah, blah. So it's like not a different kind of practice, right? You're trying to shoot a score. And I am, you know, as long as it's a lob shot of some sort, even if it's a little five-yard lob shot, I'm incredibly good at those off a mat in a game like track band virtual golf. Like, I wouldn't want to say world class, national class. I don't have no idea what I'm looking at. I just say, okay. It's a twelve yard shot, and I'm gonna walk over there and then and and and I'm gonna try to fly at four and it's five to the screen. So I keep whacking the mic every time I demonstrate. And I do it. And it's the same thing with putting. Like if you and I went to Costa Mesa and we played your favorite game and then we played my favorite game. I'm not really like grinding. I'm not I like you, I'm probably just like it's a gaze, right? It's It's there and it's just a gaze. But when I really played my best golf and worked on my putting stroke with a blip, whatever the heck the thing is, I had to look it up after we talked about it on show, and a and a Pell's putting track. When I did that thing, and then I would wide, you know, I'd make it where I was just scraping it, but then I would widen it to see if I could do it without scraping, right? I had to watch it. I had to watch the device go through the track to not hit the track. If I just looked at the ball, ding, ding, ding, all over the aluminum Day Pels putting track. But if I looked at it, I could do it. So one day I go out to play, and I'll never forget second hole in City Park, old south course. And I've got this, like, you know, tough putt. It's a weird little green. And it's like six feet, maybe five, and it breaks like ten inches. They shouldn't have put the pin there. But you know, the greens roll like seven. So I'm going, okay, I'm gonna cheat this putt and miss it low. I'm gonna try to I'm gonna aim plenty and I'm gonna get nervous that it's not gonna come back. So you know what I'm gonna do? I just spent twenty five minutes today. And when you're a teacher, And you spend 25 minutes in your day doing any one thing on your golf game, it seems like a lot, even though what's 25 minutes? And I just went, d do your thing. I mean, it was the best putter ever hit in my entire life on purpose, trying to do something I had never actually on purpose done before. Look at the putter. Because I had was 25 minutes of looking at the dang clip. In the Dave Pell's putting track. And I putted that way until Ben Doyle told me he would rather miss it for 18 months. And when I'm telling you, it wasn't even close to the best. Eight feet and in, not fair. So what wound up happening is it took all the hit out of my stroke. All because I didn't even see the ball get hit. All I could see was the put. there's a ball, and it took off. And you know, plus I'm cushioning it up against my left arm. The point is. Most people are not doing that. Most people are looking at the ball. They might be gazing at the putter. And in those apps, like I watched one of the videos, I think it's the Ooh Yeta app. You know, you're seeing what the putter did. The putter's going through. And even though it's not telling you inside, out, outside, and close, you can see it. You can see the line that you picked. You're the one that picked it. And you can see the start. And if and I think that by itself. So what is today's Hudder. speaker-1: Those. speaker-0: Okay. I got a story on I got a story on this too. On this, because I did my research in between our little things. So let's see. speaker-1: This is the zero torque even roll putter. So we were talking earlier about hitting off center. speaker-0: Hold it a little higher, like like nose high, not not give give us right, not give us the top of the putter view. speaker-1: this way? Well, I can't do it completely. speaker-0: Like you're gonna putt nose. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, you get the idea. It's one of those fang styles. Right, yeah. It's got a dot. Right, okay. speaker-1: Yeah, there you go. So so if you look if if you look close and I I'll put this up like this, you speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: can see it has grooves. So the the speaker-0: So the photov let me let me catch the folks up who just listening. So it's the even roll, zero torque. It's got a black is it a branded different chaff in it or no? speaker-1: Yeah, it's speaker-0: KBS. speaker-1: KBS, they're going fancy. speaker-0: KBS Black Chef Z tap Z Taper? speaker-1: s C T Tour yeah, that's called C T Tour Putter one twenty. speaker-0: Okay. It's got a it's got a white grip on it. It's a little bit bigger than standard grip, but not giant. And it's a blackhead, modern fang design, right? Like the Odyssey Fang. And two lines, one on each and a little dot. A la Freddy Haas, a la ping alley, right? The little dot. speaker-1: Exactly. speaker-0: Now, the only thing that jumped the look, I putted with that putter. I'm gonna talk about that in a second this week, but I'm just saying, in a store. The thing that jumps off the screen that I can see because you're holding it up, and I will describe for the folks that are just listening that I did not see when I was putting because the putter was, you know, down there on the ground and my eyes are up here, you know, wherever they are to dress. It looks like it has some sort of like different connection, like down by the what we would call a hazle, right? It it looks like there's a maybe it's bendable or something. Like it it it looks like it's a ball bearing that's sitting in the head and you can take the putter and move, but that's just the way it looks. It's just connected different to the to the head. The shaft in the head have like a little silver hazel with a little describe it, John, to the folks that can't see it. speaker-1: Yeah, so if you look at the bottom of the putter, I'm gonna turn it this way. You see that is like a little plate, like a sole plate. Yeah. See that? speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: Like a little flag on it or something. E is for even roll. Imagine that. So so I would imagine, because I didn't take this thing apart, that this this part is machined separately, the base of the head. Right. And then they have this that they can insert into that spot. And I would imagine that. All these different haws are made to different lie angles because one of the things that they like to do with these zero torque putters is fit your lie angle. So I didn't get that much information from them. speaker-0: Seems to be a little flat, no? I like flat. speaker-1: 20 ish degrees. So it's pretty standard, but I d I didn't measure it. I just hit a few putts with it. It was nice. But one of the one of the features of an even roll putter is in the center, you might not be able to see it. I'll get it close enough to the camera. Maybe you can see it. The grooves are a little bit narrower, and then out here they're wider. So they're they're different different spacings between the grooves. So it's actually, excuse me, it's Looks a bit wider in the middle. speaker-0: Yeah, that that's so so you can I you can't really see it on on YouTube and then I guarantee you nobody can see it on Apple or Spotify or whatever. So it has like a groove face, but there's a there's something in the middle of the groove face. speaker-1: There they're different they're different depths of grooves across the face. So the center grooves are they look like they're nearer each other and the the outer grooves are farther apart. I think my eyes are pretty bad, but I know I know there's a play on that. So speaker-0: So y did you hit a couple putts with it? speaker-1: Yeah, it's they're they're really nice. speaker-0: Cause I did, yeah. speaker-1: They're they're nice. for me, you know, I I I like putting with putters that don't have grooves personally, but but this feels good. And and the people that use them really like because off center hits for players that tend to hit off center, the the ball travel is going to be pretty similar with centered hits versus off center hits. speaker-0: Okay. So you said you had two putters, so you have two from the speaker-1: Sure. Guy was nice enough to send me that one. speaker-0: Beautiful. speaker-1: And this one, it's called the Easy Peasy. So I kinda like the way that the head looks. It's pretty fancy. So if you notice, you can see that the hausle's inset too. So if you look at the bottom here, can you see how it's screwed in the bottom? Yep. Yeah. So this one. speaker-0: Yep. This one is more of a for the folks who can't see, because they're listening to this, it has a spider type head with some see-throughs, right? So it's not solid all the way across. Because you start making those heads big, the weight gets to be a an issue. So you take the weight out by having nothing there. You just have a little cutout, and then you get more with the weighting way you want it. It's got two lines and it it looks like kind of a slanted inward. Plumber's deck. speaker-1: For sure. So instead of the the the neck coming perpendicular from the top line, it it angles inward toward the center of the putter. So much so that it being that it's a longer neck, the extension of the shaft going into the head goes beyond the sweet spot. If it goes into the sweet spot, when you do the little balance on your fingers at the midpoint, right. The the face is level to the ground. Right. You have it like speaker-0: Go called Face Up. speaker-1: Yes. Now if you have the the hausle shorter than this and it doesn't come out toward the sweet spot like a normal speaker-0: Port an answer ping answer. speaker-1: And you get the forty-five degree balance. Now this one, since it goes beyond, it's gonna angle toe up instead of toe down. So it's that's why they call it a reverse. speaker-0: Torque. This is the r is this the reverse torque? speaker-1: It's a reverse torque. And the strategy behind that is if if you have the forty five degree or if you have like an eighty or two, the the the book on that says that it's gonna have a pret propensity, excuse me, to rotate open and you have to close it. Now this one, because it has the the hausle and the balance set beyond the sweet spot, it's gonna take the club and have it come back from the ball so it doesn't open up quite as much. And you can really feel that if you've ever putted with a bass Accwards butter. speaker-0: I put it with in college unsuccessfully, but I tried. I even had the heavy bass act. speaker-1: Yeah, those are wild because you know, I I was using back when that came out, I was using an eighty-eight two putter, and when I got that thing in my hands, it it I it might as well have been, I don't know, a garden hoe. It was just like, my god, this thing's so weird. So so it so you you move the balance out far enough. It does something to the the way the putter swings. And their contention is that it's gonna excuse me, got a frog in my throat. That it's gonna not open up and so you don't have to close it as much. So it's gonna reduce the amount of rotation in your stroke. And I think it does. I didn't I didn't put it on the Sam putt lab, but hit some putts with it. K felt as though. So it's really nice butter. These are, you know, made in Carlsbad where almost all the putters are made these days. And really nice. speaker-0: So I was down in Florida to do the track man university kickoff. They had they very smartly, if I wanna hurt myself but pat myself on the back, had the first two of the one that I did and the one after that, me and James lights. I did the first one, James did the second one. I don't think that had anything to do with it, but the fact that we had done both of the first two, was probably a good idea since, you know, we're probably the two biggest Proponents and and and and you know knowledge-based users of the thing. While I was down there, what I like to do if I have a little time and a little drive. Did this when I was in north north Dallas w when Michael Jacobs won that Horton Smith Award last year, is I'll put in the phone, listen, I'm driving from this airport to this spot, and I want to stop. at some golf shops and or things golf like that ain't golf courses. So I wound up at three and one of them was an Edwin Watts, which we have in in in in Louisiana and and right down the street here, about six miles down the road on Veterans Highway. And they had an unreal selection of putters for just just little bitty, you know, store putting green as these places go. Cause the first place I went to was a brand new PGA tour superstore in Del Rey Beach. Like brand new. And or or completely renovated, you know, to the point where I think the floors were new, everything was new. And they had this giant green. And they had more and I I don't even want to know how, you know, eighty feet across by 80 feet, something like that. May maybe 70 by 70. This one was like old school. Like it was like 20 feet by 12 feet. They had more selection by far than the PGA tour superstore did. They had putters at the PGA Tour Superstore. There were just so many of them. It was just this very similar putters, and they were just a few brands, weirdly. And but this Edwin Watts, man, was they had everything. And they had like a ridiculous collection of even row putters. So I putted with The first I putted with the Zero Torque. You know, we've we've talked about the Zero Torque putters and you know online here. You know, I'm pretty good friends with Bill Pressey, who invented the thing. The original directed for his putter became lab golf. always wanted to have one to play with. Don't have one to play with, but I I I have something to try right now. Anyway, I I've putted with every single one of them you could put with. When I'm at a pro shop that has a different one. I'm telling you, Johnny, unless I'm crazy, there is a bigger difference between everybody's zero torque putters than everybody's ping answer copies. I mean, like if you just went and got all the ping answer copies, a ping answer, you know, real one, a Scottsdale one, an 85 old 20, whatever the one that was out for 20 years, that's worth about $15 now. On eBay, but really still a good putter. And then all the ones up to the fancy Scotty Cameron's and Circle T's and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They don't feel that much different. If they if they're the if you pick it from the same weight. But these zero torques are all over the place. And this one was one of the better ones. Then I went, no, I we we're doing the show. I gotta, I gotta go look at the reverse torque. Let me tell you, it's gonna fit somebody. That thing does something very different. I putted some cross handed, I butted some conventional, I putted some anchored, I putted a couple of them, you know, whatever what do you call this? Paintbrush, what do you call with the claw? I did, you know, I did because it was doing something that to me it opened through the ball. That's what I got out of it. It yeah, like to me, it it just seemed the ball seemed to go off to the right more. In my hands. But let me just tell you, it wasn't bad. I I felt like I could have adjusted, but it was not. Everybody thinks, you know, the all these things, it's all marketing. Man, zero torque putters do not putt like any non-zero torque putters. And this reverse torque putter does not putt like any zero torque putter. And it probably, you know, it's gonna fit somebody, give it a whirl. But there's always a butt with me. speaker-1: Did did you see the Phil Kenyon public service announcement that was on Instagram? speaker-0: No, we're gonna talk about that in a second. I don't wanna putting is fun. I don't wanna make it that much fun. So, so we got so the so so but but what I wanted to do for our little even roll segment here. speaker-1: Yeah, sure. speaker-0: they have a a a bunch of like midlock putters. I have one of the grips over there. And it's you know, for people like me to putt the putter on their arm. Not I I'm not putting that way lately. So I'm just but I you know, historically over the last 30 years, I've done a lot of But they had the grip not turned toward your forearm. It was like wide turned, you know, the way we we talked about with the with the hockey stick in the last episode. And a super long hazel. Like the longest offset hazle I've ever seen. And the head was very uniform on top with one big white line. So I put this thing up against the ball and I made like one normal stroke and I almost double hit it. Then I Put it up against my left arm and I went, This is too easy. This is not going anywhere but in the hole because this black line, it that now that I'm in my langer stance, this black line is just gonna be way too easy for me to just paint a perfect stroke with the white. I should have just bought the potter because I've been looking for one. It's not currently in their line, you know. But the the point I I I wanted to make with the story is this is one company. And they're doing a good job. And they have putters that do completely different things in your hands, which I think is is good, right? Because you never know what's gonna be the magic wand for somebody, correct? speaker-1: For sure. And I think that's one of the things that makes putting so fun. And that's why guys like me are gonna have forty or fifty putters because you're just like geeking out trying different things. And especially if you're an avid player, you're gonna find one that's just a little bit better for you than the rest. And it takes some exploration to find it. It doesn't just come to you to you, you have to go out and find it. But it's it it it helps to have a little bit of background of like this pump one likely is gonna have this happen. But even if you don't, you can just hit putts with them and you know, figure, hey, this one's pretty good, this one's not so good. Roger Dunns and Edwin Watts, they they have ninety day satisfaction guarantees. So as long as you don't trash the putter, keep the head covers on you know, treat nice, don't putt with them on sanded greens and all the rest. You know, they'll they'll gladly take it back if it somehow doesn't work out. speaker-0: So so tell me, I I didn't but I cut you off before, but tell me about the I I think I vaguely saw it, so you might like jot my jog or whatever. Is it jot or jog your memory? Okay. speaker-1: Go jog. Used to jog. speaker-0: Philip Kenyon did a l zero torque putter video. speaker-1: I saw I saw that it was just a still picture. It was it was public service announcement. He was just saying that you can torque And you can. But speaker-0: He was saying that you can torque Yeah. speaker-1: You can. Well sure he can. He had had a picture of of of a zero tea torque putter and he had a Sam Puttlab triplet on the on the putter and it was twisted away to the right. Now, to be fair, I don't know who this guy was that was was swinging the putter. He might have been a guy with huge yips. I had I had a couple of yippers in here this week and they they can do some pretty incredible things with a putter. See, there's a when you get one of those guys it's It's to me it's fun 'cause then I I just have to use my imagination to get to not not yip. speaker-0: Right. No, you got that that listen. I worked for a guy named Tom Logsden, one of the best bosses. Tom Logsden and Stan Stopper and Henry Thomas. Only three people I ever worked for that was like rah-rah all the time. Now, I mean that were that were golf pros, right? These these guys were golf pros. I I had some Tony Tony Williams at different strokes in Louisville, nicest guy in the world. But you know, not a golf pro. So these three guys, you know, they were rah-rah Bryan. They were all so Tommy once said, and I I'm I'm trying to relate Tom Logson's speech about selling to teaching golf. He said, if you sell a house that's worth $100,000 for $100,000, you're an order taker. If you sell it for $130, you're a salesman. You know? So like if you give a lesson to somebody who is, you know, super opening the putter through the ball, some kind of weird way. And you tell him, hey, Joe. You're super opening the putter through the ball. That's why you're aiming 30 feet left, but it's really destroying your putting. Let's keep that face square through the ball-ish. And then they do it. That's one kind of teaching. That's almost like ordering a stroke. But if they can't do it after you know what they need to do and they know what they need to do. And they can't do it. And they can't do it after two or three of your suggestions and little things that you do with people who have that problem. That's where the real teacher begins, baby, right? Isn't that isn't that the case? speaker-1: For sure. This guy was so thankful because when I when I saw him hit a couple putts and I could see the you know the f the the tremor. speaker-0: Yep. yeah. speaker-1: I said, Hey Joe. I don't know his name's Joe, but I like hey Joe. Said, Hey Joe, that's not gonna work. We we gotta we gotta change this thing, right? speaker-0: What was the what was the fix? speaker-1: Fix was we went sp split hand like this. speaker-0: Rossy and split in. speaker-1: Yeah, cross hand, split hand, sometimes up against the arm, sometimes not. I said, That's you know, ch up to you. Just have to figure that out. But the flinch went away. It wasn't like anything miraculous. I've I've had other people come in and I had to do more. Sometimes go left handed. Yeah. Br Brady Riggs had Yanni saying she went left handed. She she couldn't putt right handed anymore, so switch it around. Wasn't anything speaker-0: Lane McAllister won what, three tournaments on tour, righty, putting lefty. speaker-1: Maca Gradie. speaker-0: P Puttugg left it because he he had to. Bacco gravy. speaker-1: Echo Grady, no know to be gay. He he did it because he wanted to always have a hook butt. Yep. Bullseye. John Reuter. So j just have to figure stuff out. It is the same thing happens with people that have the chipping yips. I had some guy come to me and he kept hitting behind the ball. They go, Let's just move the ball back farther, see how that works. You guys can do that? I'm like, sure, let's see what happens. He hits hits it and no stub. He's like, that's great. I'll I'll do that. And so just go for it 'cause Anything else wouldn't work. So you just keep like ordering from the menu just until you find the the the the dish that's right. speaker-0: So as a wrap up today, putting is fun and the two pros on it say speaker-1: No Spider today? speaker-0: what's that? speaker-1: No Spider song today. speaker-0: No, I still don't have it. I'm sorry. I'm gonna do it. I promise you, spider song is coming. there's two spider songs, right? There's two. I have two. Yeah, I'm gonna speaker-1: Rap rap and and the eighties rock. speaker-0: We'll get we we have a vote. We'll have a vote. If you are first of all, A, spend a little time practice putting. Unless you're perfectly satisfied with whatever you're doing with your putting on the golf course, spend some time practicing. Even if you get one of those old school ball ball retrievers, whatever they ball sender backers, whatever they are, ball return things. They got that little very nice mat. Then you putt the putt and you have the little hole and the big hole and it comes back. Spend some time working on your putting if you want to putt better. You'll have fun doing it because it's it's fun to putt better and it's fun to practice. And if you really want to geek out, maybe try one of these apps and and and and really geek out and and maybe you'll learn something and it'll be worth your while. That pretty that sounds pretty good to you. speaker-1: Sounds like a good plan to me. They they're not gonna be too expensive. I think U8 is p is gonna be twenty bucks a month or something like that. I don't know what Canyons will be. I think the twenty bucks sounds about right, but if it's more, he's worth it. He's he's good. You you can go on YouTube. He puts out a lot of free content. I don't think Derek does as much, but he does some. I I haven't done much of it. Maybe I should. But speaker-0: Make you do it. speaker-1: bring out Scotty or the fellow lab. speaker-0: Funnel, funnel is looking for some putty content, Johnny. We're gonna do some good stuff. Okay, we got music playing. Fun episode. You need to practice to get better. speaker-1: Excuse me, facts putting is fun.