Latest / Best of Business / Bosses Unfiltered Episode 3: Lisa King

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Bosses Unfiltered Episode 3: Lisa King · Best of Business

0:01
Speaker 1: The big winds and the big losses, the hurdles, the pivots,
0:06
Speaker 1: and the emotions, raw and honest New Zealand's great business
0:10
Speaker 1: minds like you've never heard them before. This is Bosses
0:13
Speaker 1: Unfiltered with Kerry Woodhem on iHeart Radio powered by Newstalg SIDB.
0:18
Speaker 2: They say, when one door closes, another one opens, and
0:22
Speaker 2: that's certainly been the case for Lisa King, who in
0:25
Speaker 2: the same breath closed her first business, Eat My Lunch,
0:28
Speaker 2: and started a drinks brand, AF Drinks. AF as an
0:33
Speaker 2: alcohol free has picked up on a huge risme people
0:37
Speaker 2: who want to drink less or not at all like me.
0:40
Speaker 2: It's a change not just seen in New Zealand, but
0:42
Speaker 2: across the world. Within two years in the US market,
0:46
Speaker 2: AF Drinks are now available in four thousand stores in
0:49
Speaker 2: the US. But how are things looking behind the scenes.
0:53
Speaker 2: I'm Kirie Woodhom and this is Bosses Unfiltered, and interview
0:57
Speaker 2: series about what it's really like to run a business. Lisa,
1:00
Speaker 2: A very very good morning to.
1:02
Speaker 3: You and you too, thanks so much for having me.
1:05
Speaker 2: It's genius coming up with alcohol free drinks that are sophisticated,
1:10
Speaker 2: that look great, that taste great, and give people an
1:14
Speaker 2: alternative to the soft drinks or the orange juice that
1:16
Speaker 2: you know, So where did the idea come from?
1:20
Speaker 3: So I was actually suffering from quite a bit of
1:23
Speaker 3: severe vertigo, and I realized every time I had vertigo,
1:27
Speaker 3: i'd had a gin and tonic. It's unfortunate, it's really
1:32
Speaker 3: so I thought, Okay, well I better stop drinking for
1:34
Speaker 3: a little bit. And this is kind of towards the
1:37
Speaker 3: end of twenty nineteen beginning of twenty twenty. And it
1:42
Speaker 3: was just really interesting to me that when I would
1:44
Speaker 3: go out and say, oh, actually I'm not drinking, everyone
1:47
Speaker 3: just assumed I was pregnant or there was something wrong,
1:52
Speaker 3: you know, and it was or you know, they didn't
1:54
Speaker 3: try to encourage me to drink. They'd be like, just
1:57
Speaker 3: have one, you know. And also I just found, like
2:01
Speaker 3: you were saying, it was really hard to find good alternatives,
2:05
Speaker 3: you know, that wasn't a sugary coke or a mix
2:08
Speaker 3: of fruit juices that you really didn't want to have, particularly,
2:12
Speaker 3: you know, I don't want to have coke with my
2:14
Speaker 3: beautiful steak dinner, or you know, when you're socializing with
2:17
Speaker 3: friends and everyone else is having these beautiful drinks and
2:20
Speaker 3: you're kind of sitting there with some sparkling water. So
2:23
Speaker 3: that's kind of what prompted me to start AF. I
2:26
Speaker 3: just really wanted a gin and tonic without the alcohol,
2:31
Speaker 3: and it was by the time kind of the idea
2:36
Speaker 3: came about and we started it, it was lockdown. We
2:39
Speaker 3: got into lockdown, and so I kind of pulled together
2:44
Speaker 3: a few people, you know, we did the first three
2:46
Speaker 3: months over zoom, as everyone did, and I was trying
2:51
Speaker 3: to come up with a formulation that tasted just like
2:56
Speaker 3: a freshly major and tonic, but without the alcohol. And
3:00
Speaker 3: so I was working with like a flavorhouse. During lockdown,
3:04
Speaker 3: they'd drop off little samples to my door, you know,
3:06
Speaker 3: I try them, give them feedback, they'll drop off more samples.
3:09
Speaker 3: And so that kind of process went on for about
3:12
Speaker 3: eight months, and then we launched into the New Zealand
3:15
Speaker 3: market at the very end of twenty twenty, and it
3:18
Speaker 3: was the first kind of product of its kind in
3:21
Speaker 3: New Zealand. It was really interesting because people would be like, why,
3:25
Speaker 3: why would you have a gin and tonic without alcohol,
3:28
Speaker 3: Like that doesn't make sense, and so there was quite
3:31
Speaker 3: a lot of education of consumers, but also like retailers,
3:36
Speaker 3: you know, we'd go to the New Worlds and the
3:38
Speaker 3: countdowns and they'd be like, why would people want this?
3:43
Speaker 3: And where would we put it?
3:45
Speaker 2: You know, is.
3:46
Speaker 3: It an alcohol? Is it with the soft drinks? Like?
3:50
Speaker 3: There was no space for it naturally, and so we
3:55
Speaker 3: had to you know, like again just educate and try
3:59
Speaker 3: and find and earn what best practices were and how
4:03
Speaker 3: we could actually sell this to your everyday New Zealander.
4:08
Speaker 2: So did you have to invent a market not only
4:11
Speaker 2: just a product, but a market.
4:13
Speaker 3: Yeah. There were a lot of consumers who are confused.
4:18
Speaker 3: It was really funny because we'd do sampling in store
4:21
Speaker 3: and people would try it thinking it was a gin
4:23
Speaker 3: and tonic, and then some people, yeah, they were like,
4:26
Speaker 3: oh this is great, put a couple in their trolleys,
4:29
Speaker 3: and it would have incidences where they'd come back and
4:31
Speaker 3: return it because like there's no alcohol in this.
4:36
Speaker 2: And say yeah.
4:38
Speaker 3: We definitely had to kind of create and educate people
4:43
Speaker 3: about why you would want to have a product like this.
4:47
Speaker 2: And a premium product too. I mean it's not cheap yeah.
4:50
Speaker 3: And people were like, well, hang on, I can buy
4:52
Speaker 3: you know, coke for a third of the price. Why
4:55
Speaker 3: would I buy something like this and it's got no alcohol,
4:59
Speaker 3: so why is it almost the same price as alcohol?
5:02
Speaker 3: And it was again really interesting, how you know we've
5:06
Speaker 3: particularly I think in New Zealand culture everything's centered around alcohol,
5:10
Speaker 3: and you place such a huge value on alcohol. And
5:13
Speaker 3: if you actually think about a lot of alcohol, it's
5:16
Speaker 3: cheap ethanol and it's a toxin, you know, yet we
5:22
Speaker 3: want to pay more for that in our products. So yeah,
5:26
Speaker 3: just really interesting, you know how people were kind of
5:29
Speaker 3: approaching and thinking about alcohol at the time and then
5:32
Speaker 3: if you look now, you know it's only been we've
5:35
Speaker 3: been in the market four and a half years, how
5:37
Speaker 3: quickly that has changed.
5:40
Speaker 2: Well, I think the young ones too are looking for
5:44
Speaker 2: a lifestyle that doesn't revolve around alcohol. They're very body conscious,
5:48
Speaker 2: they're very health conscious. So how on earth did you
5:53
Speaker 2: start a business during lockdown and that it's sort of
5:56
Speaker 2: into and out of lockdowns while you were trying to
5:58
Speaker 2: get this business up and running, like I wouldn't even
6:01
Speaker 2: know where to find a flavor house? Did you just
6:05
Speaker 2: flavor house near me?
6:06
Speaker 3: Or yeah? It's well, you know, the first fifteen years
6:11
Speaker 3: of my career I worked in big multinationals for the
6:14
Speaker 3: likes of Fronterra Cadbury's, Heines Uni Lever.
6:18
Speaker 2: We had a background and food and beverage.
6:21
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I kind of knew the processes and I'd
6:23
Speaker 3: done it, you know. So it's really interesting because people
6:27
Speaker 3: do ask like, how did you know that? And it
6:32
Speaker 3: is that past experience that helped me kind of get
6:36
Speaker 3: this business off the ground. And yeah, the trickiest thing
6:41
Speaker 3: about making you know, drinks like this is that people go, oh,
6:46
Speaker 3: it's just flavored water, you know, and we knew like
6:50
Speaker 3: we had to get it as close to the alcoholic
6:54
Speaker 3: version as possible. And you know, we've tried lots of
6:58
Speaker 3: alcohol free products and they are really disappointing. You know,
7:02
Speaker 3: even alcohol free bears up until recently weren't great. Wine
7:07
Speaker 3: is really wine is terrible, and because a lot of
7:12
Speaker 3: like wine bear spirits, they start with alcohol and then
7:16
Speaker 3: they take the alcohol out, and alcohol, you know, gives
7:20
Speaker 3: body and texture and that mouth feel what we call
7:23
Speaker 3: mouthfeel in your mouth. And that was one of the
7:26
Speaker 3: early realizations. I was like, why would you put alcohol
7:29
Speaker 3: in it when you want to take it out? That
7:32
Speaker 3: just didn't really make sense. And so what we did
7:35
Speaker 3: was we'll get you know, we'll make the best version
7:38
Speaker 3: of gin and tonic or our prol spirits the alcoholic one,
7:42
Speaker 3: and then we'll use natural flavors to kind of match
7:45
Speaker 3: all the different layers and complexity you get in that drink.
7:49
Speaker 3: And then we found this ingredient. It's our secret little weapon.
7:53
Speaker 3: It's called afterglow and it's from New Zealand. It's a
7:56
Speaker 3: botanical extract and it gives you that little burn, yeah,
8:01
Speaker 3: that bite, yeah, that bite that so many drinks are missing.
8:06
Speaker 3: And it also does this, It kind of gives you
8:08
Speaker 3: a warming sensation. So the more you drink, the warmer
8:12
Speaker 3: you start feeling. And it's different for everyone, Like for me,
8:15
Speaker 3: it's two afs and my cheeks start getting really warm
8:19
Speaker 3: and so I actually feel like, you know, I'm having
8:21
Speaker 3: this adult drink and that I've actually been drinking when
8:24
Speaker 3: I haven't. And so that's been like such a game
8:29
Speaker 3: changer for us in terms of being able to deliver
8:31
Speaker 3: the drinking experience, not just a good tasting beverage.
8:36
Speaker 2: So the marketing to around the presentation of the drinks
8:41
Speaker 2: is really important. It's got to look nice while you're
8:44
Speaker 2: holding it in the can. It's got to look nice
8:47
Speaker 2: in a glass. If you're pouring it in a glass.
8:49
Speaker 2: I love the AF sparkling Rose because if I if
8:53
Speaker 2: I'm having an occasion where I want to open a bottle,
8:56
Speaker 2: I want it to be pretty and nice and feel
8:59
Speaker 2: like an occasion and that you've really nailed it when
9:02
Speaker 2: it comes to that.
9:03
Speaker 3: Well, one of the first people I called when I
9:06
Speaker 3: had this idea is this amazing guy called Neck Worthington.
9:10
Speaker 3: He was the creative chairman at Colenso for the last
9:13
Speaker 3: twenty odd years, and I called him during lockdown. I say, hey,
9:18
Speaker 3: Nick kind of got this idea, and he gathered a
9:22
Speaker 3: bunch of also incredibly creatives from ex advertising together. So
9:28
Speaker 3: much of beverage is about the branding what it says
9:31
Speaker 3: about you, and so we wanted something that was modern,
9:35
Speaker 3: that looked beautiful but also but fun and cheeky. Yeah,
9:39
Speaker 3: which is where the name AF comes from. It officially
9:43
Speaker 3: stands for alcohol Free, but we all know what we
9:47
Speaker 3: know what it means.
9:48
Speaker 2: For those of you who aren't watching online, Alisa's wearing
9:51
Speaker 2: a T shirt with boss AF on the front. So
9:56
Speaker 2: you had your experience in corporate to work from, you know,
10:01
Speaker 2: and relevant corporate experience, plus a great network of amazing
10:06
Speaker 2: humans with incredible experience behind them as well. Did they
10:10
Speaker 2: give you a head start in terms of nailing the
10:14
Speaker 2: market so quickly? Absolutely?
10:16
Speaker 3: And I also had my experience from Eat my Lunch,
10:19
Speaker 3: you know, so being the second startup had taken a
10:23
Speaker 3: lot of lessons from that and that's really helped, I
10:29
Speaker 3: think as well, just not making the same mistakes.
10:32
Speaker 2: What were the mistakes you made?
10:35
Speaker 3: I think knowing that something's always going to go wrong,
10:41
Speaker 3: you know, just trying to keep that cool, calm head.
10:45
Speaker 3: And it was Eat my Lunch that kind of taught
10:48
Speaker 3: me that that no matter what goes wrong, because something will,
10:51
Speaker 3: it will be okay and we'll get through it. And
10:54
Speaker 3: so you don't need to panic and you know, kind
10:57
Speaker 3: of get into a really frantic and anxious space. And
11:03
Speaker 3: so having that kind of call come head to navigate
11:05
Speaker 3: all of those challenges and barriers. That's a big one investment,
11:10
Speaker 3: you know, how much money it really takes to feel
11:13
Speaker 3: a business. And Af's been quite different because we've gone
11:16
Speaker 3: internationally as well, so it's a different level of funding,
11:21
Speaker 3: getting the right people on board at the beginning, and
11:25
Speaker 3: getting some of those fundamentals right. So yeah, you know,
11:29
Speaker 3: I was very conscious about getting that group of very
11:32
Speaker 3: experienced people upfront to really kind of establish the foundations
11:37
Speaker 3: of the brand and the business, and then just being
11:41
Speaker 3: really focused on what we're doing and what we stand
11:45
Speaker 3: for and not trying to do too much too quickly.
11:50
Speaker 2: How much did it cost? Because it looks like a
11:54
Speaker 2: high end product, so I imagine initially it would have been
11:57
Speaker 2: quite a lot of seed money going into into it
12:01
Speaker 2: before you even knew if it was going to be
12:03
Speaker 2: a success.
12:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, And we got our first investment before we'd even
12:07
Speaker 3: produced our first can, so you know, again that kind
12:11
Speaker 3: of experience of knowing you need that kind of startup
12:16
Speaker 3: funding and getting the right people on board again, the people,
12:20
Speaker 3: I mean that first investment, it wasn't even about the
12:23
Speaker 3: product because we hadn't even launched it, but it was
12:26
Speaker 3: about investing in the group of people that I had
12:29
Speaker 3: and you know, that was where the value is or
12:32
Speaker 3: was and still is.
12:35
Speaker 2: Yeah.
12:35
Speaker 3: So it costs a lot of money. You know, you're
12:39
Speaker 3: paying for someone to make your products, you know, all
12:42
Speaker 3: the beautiful cans, the labeling, everything, the marketing of it,
12:47
Speaker 3: selling it into retailers.
12:49
Speaker 2: You know, some didn't know what they were buying.
12:51
Speaker 3: He didn't know, yeah, you know, sampling because taste is
12:55
Speaker 3: everything and we needed people to try it and understand it.
12:59
Speaker 1: The honest story of being in business, Talking the wins
13:02
Speaker 1: and the losses Bosses Unfiltered with Kerry woodhem On iHeartRadio
13:07
Speaker 1: Powered My News TALKSB. What it's really like to build
13:13
Speaker 1: a business in New Zealand. Bosses Unfiltered with Kerry woodhem
13:17
Speaker 1: On iHeartRadio Powered My News TALKSB.
13:20
Speaker 2: You say you know that you've gone, You've taken it gradually,
13:25
Speaker 2: but to be exporting overseas within four years as a
13:30
Speaker 2: big deal, yeah, we.
13:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wouldn't say we've been going at a slow pace.
13:39
Speaker 2: Definitely.
13:40
Speaker 3: You take what you know when it comes like, it
13:42
Speaker 3: comes right. It's so hard to control. And we went
13:47
Speaker 3: to the US two years ago. Why when we had
13:52
Speaker 3: established ourselves in New Zealand. You know, we've got forty
13:56
Speaker 3: market share of the New Zealand market. New Zealand's a
13:59
Speaker 3: great place to test a product and get those learnings.
14:02
Speaker 3: But in terms of being able to scale further, we
14:05
Speaker 3: knew we had to look overseas. We obviously considered Australia
14:10
Speaker 3: like most New Zealand companies, but Australia is very difficult,
14:15
Speaker 3: Like I struggled to name, you know, a New Zealand
14:19
Speaker 3: brand that's really kind of done incredibly well in Australia,
14:24
Speaker 3: and we thought, for the same amount of effort and
14:26
Speaker 3: resource that we need to launch in Australia, we might
14:29
Speaker 3: as well go to the US because the market is
14:32
Speaker 3: huge over there. And even if you just look at California,
14:35
Speaker 3: you know, it's fifty million people in one state, and
14:39
Speaker 3: we're like, if we could just crack California, you know,
14:42
Speaker 3: the opportunities there and the potential size, it could be massive.
14:48
Speaker 3: And so we went to the US for a little
14:51
Speaker 3: visit and we were surprised because we thought it must
14:58
Speaker 3: have already been you know, other players in the market.
15:01
Speaker 3: California's very head when it comes to wellness and health
15:05
Speaker 3: and beverages, and there went brands like ours in California
15:11
Speaker 3: and we were like, oh, that's really interesting. And then
15:14
Speaker 3: the retailers over there they hadn't created space for this
15:18
Speaker 3: type of these types of products or this category. So
15:21
Speaker 3: suddenly we had this opportunity to be first in the
15:24
Speaker 3: US as well, which you know, you don't get many
15:27
Speaker 3: opportunities to be first in a market like that, and
15:31
Speaker 3: we got into a retailer called Sprouts. They're very high
15:35
Speaker 3: in natural retailer, like a Whole Foods, and yeah, we
15:40
Speaker 3: managed to get ranging in fifty stores. Was kind of like,
15:43
Speaker 3: let's do a test in California and then we'll grow.
15:48
Speaker 3: As we were making the first products for the US
15:51
Speaker 3: that day, the Sprouts by a court and they're like,
15:54
Speaker 3: actually we need to go to all four hundred stores
15:58
Speaker 3: or we don't do it at all. And so gosh,
16:02
Speaker 3: you know, we're like four hundred stores in the US
16:05
Speaker 3: isn't a lot. But for us, it was like.
16:08
Speaker 2: So how much did that mean you had to increase production.
16:11
Speaker 3: By Oh, we were scrambling. We we did the first production,
16:16
Speaker 3: then we're like, right, when can we do the next one?
16:17
Speaker 3: We've only got two months to make all of this product.
16:20
Speaker 3: And you know, we actually had to pay the manufacturer
16:23
Speaker 3: extra just to schedule us in to get this product
16:26
Speaker 3: for Sprouts. So yeah, it was a scramble to get
16:30
Speaker 3: all the products ready.
16:31
Speaker 2: And did you have the money there and the af
16:34
Speaker 2: coffers or did you have to go back to investors
16:36
Speaker 2: and say we need more.
16:38
Speaker 3: Fortunately we had the money I at that point, So yeah,
16:44
Speaker 3: you know, we launched in April twenty three into four
16:48
Speaker 3: hundred stores with Sprouts, and then onto Amazon as well.
16:52
Speaker 3: You know, Amazon's a huge channel that we don't have here,
16:55
Speaker 3: but all Americans shop on Amazon pretty much every day,
17:01
Speaker 3: so that's become a really big channel for us too.
17:04
Speaker 3: And then a year, well six months later, we got
17:09
Speaker 3: a call from Target and the category went from no
17:15
Speaker 3: retailer had it to then every retailer in the US
17:18
Speaker 3: is now like, how do we get into the space,
17:20
Speaker 3: what brands do we bring in? And so we got
17:23
Speaker 3: a call from Target saying they wanted to do a
17:25
Speaker 3: trial and they wanted af to be part of that,
17:30
Speaker 3: and that was six hundred stores. And then we got
17:33
Speaker 3: a call from Walmart. I had to fly to Bentonville
17:39
Speaker 3: from New Zealand, a forty eight hour trip to Bentonville
17:43
Speaker 3: meet the buyer Saladin. They gave us ranging on the spot,
17:49
Speaker 3: and so we launched in both Target and Walmart last
17:52
Speaker 3: March and six hundred stores in each. Yeah, so that
17:58
Speaker 3: we needed more money for because then suddenly we had
18:01
Speaker 3: to make all of this product and so, you know,
18:04
Speaker 3: that's one of the challenges is that when you're growing,
18:07
Speaker 3: you need a lot of capital to fell working capital,
18:10
Speaker 3: production and costs and so forth to really kind of
18:15
Speaker 3: make the most of those opportunities.
18:17
Speaker 2: And are you getting that.
18:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we definitely had to go back, you know,
18:23
Speaker 3: to our current investors. We were very lucky when we
18:26
Speaker 3: before we launched in the US, we got Perno Ricard
18:30
Speaker 3: on board as an investor, so you know, we're able
18:34
Speaker 3: to go back to our current shareholders and get more
18:38
Speaker 3: money to support the launch those launchers, which they're the
18:42
Speaker 3: two biggest retailers in the US, so it was a
18:45
Speaker 3: huge opportunity for us. And then this year actually just
18:49
Speaker 3: now the last kind of month or so, we've secured
18:53
Speaker 3: double the number of doors and both Target and warmert
18:56
Speaker 3: so we went from sex hundred to twelve hundred in
18:59
Speaker 3: each of those retailers. So we've been very busy expanding
19:04
Speaker 3: those our presence with those retailers.
19:08
Speaker 2: Why would the American retailers not look for an American version.
19:14
Speaker 2: They've seen that an alcohol free drink works, but you're
19:18
Speaker 2: in New Zealand and you've got to get it to
19:20
Speaker 2: them as well, don't you.
19:23
Speaker 3: We actually produce in the US for the US now
19:26
Speaker 3: from the beginning, right because you know, with the shipping
19:30
Speaker 3: issues and costs that came with covid. Also, this is
19:35
Speaker 3: the product is a lot of water. It just never
19:38
Speaker 3: made sense to ship right a bunch of water across
19:40
Speaker 3: the world. Yeah, so we'd always kind of set it
19:44
Speaker 3: up from the beginning that we wanted to scale quickly,
19:46
Speaker 3: and so we use third party manufacturers to help make
19:50
Speaker 3: the products.
19:51
Speaker 2: Just as the alcohol companies do exactly.
19:54
Speaker 3: Yeah. So yeah, so we're manufactured locally, we don't, I mean,
20:00
Speaker 3: apart from fact they know we're from New Zealand, we
20:02
Speaker 3: don't really leverage that to consumers, so it's not part
20:06
Speaker 3: of our core proposition. The only thing we do export
20:10
Speaker 3: from New Zealand is the afterglow is our secret ingredient.
20:14
Speaker 3: And we talk about the fact that it's from New
20:16
Speaker 3: Zealand it's this botanical but yeah, the.
20:20
Speaker 2: Actual product is not hey bikey we made and it's
20:23
Speaker 2: no no no. Yeah.
20:26
Speaker 3: So the reason why Target and Walmart chose us was
20:30
Speaker 3: because we were one of the first brands to launch
20:32
Speaker 3: with sprouts, and so we had proven success and we
20:35
Speaker 3: had sales behind us. There were only a couple of
20:40
Speaker 3: other brands launching at that time. So now but now
20:44
Speaker 3: within two years, you know, there's hundreds of brands launching
20:49
Speaker 3: into this space.
20:51
Speaker 2: How do you secure the deals like going in to
20:54
Speaker 2: see the Walmart buyo and how are you going in
20:55
Speaker 2: to see these buyers? Do you have a lucky dress
20:58
Speaker 2: or special high heels that you wheel when you walk
21:02
Speaker 2: them there and wear this T shirt?
21:04
Speaker 4: Normally it's perfect because they must look at this gorgeous
21:09
Speaker 4: wee thing that walks into their store and think, Okay,
21:12
Speaker 4: so where's the boss who I deal with?
21:16
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so funny because there's myself, the rest of
21:21
Speaker 3: the kind of senior team. They're all I hate to say,
21:24
Speaker 3: middle aged white men, and so.
21:29
Speaker 2: It is.
21:30
Speaker 3: It's one of the things that you know, I think
21:33
Speaker 3: I've struggled with since I've started my career, and but
21:36
Speaker 3: now I really use it to my advantage. Like I
21:39
Speaker 3: love the fact when I walk into her room, people
21:41
Speaker 3: will start talking to my male colleagues thinking they're the boss.
21:45
Speaker 3: And my husband also works in the business, so we
21:48
Speaker 3: got a lot of things together, and they'll always talk
21:51
Speaker 3: to him and he'll be like, ah, you need to
21:53
Speaker 3: talk to him. She makes the decisions. And I kind
21:57
Speaker 3: of really love surprising people, and I really like being
22:01
Speaker 3: underestimated because they do think, you know, I'm like softly
22:06
Speaker 3: spoken and I'm really nice, and then when they come
22:10
Speaker 3: to deal with me, they realize, actually, you know, I'm
22:14
Speaker 3: all into the business and that you can't really muck around.
22:19
Speaker 3: So yeah, I really kind of use it to my advantage.
22:23
Speaker 2: Now, how did you educate the market? Did you use
22:26
Speaker 2: influences like pretty young things who were you know, living
22:32
Speaker 2: a healthy lifestyle that were able to authentically promote it,
22:35
Speaker 2: or how did you get eyes on the product?
22:39
Speaker 3: One of the key things that James, who's in our team,
22:44
Speaker 3: is an amazing strategist, and really early on we were
22:48
Speaker 3: looking at people who went drinking and you know, I
22:52
Speaker 3: remember he put up this slide on Zoom and it
22:56
Speaker 3: was you know, Pharrell and Bradley Cooper and Naoi me
23:00
Speaker 3: Camboll and Sarah Silverman and we're like, oh, they don't drink.
23:04
Speaker 3: You know, how does Pharrel be the life of the
23:07
Speaker 3: party and not have any alcohol in him? Or you know,
23:10
Speaker 3: how do you be a comedian stand up on stage
23:13
Speaker 3: and not drink? And so we're so fascinated by these
23:17
Speaker 3: well known, successful people and we were like, if we
23:20
Speaker 3: can create a world where we can show others that,
23:25
Speaker 3: you know, these incredible people that everyone wants to be like.
23:28
Speaker 3: They don't need alcohol in their lives to reach the
23:32
Speaker 3: levels that they have. You know, we wanted to create
23:35
Speaker 3: that kind of aspiration and go, I want to be
23:38
Speaker 3: like them. And so that has always been part of
23:41
Speaker 3: our strategy, is to share other people's stories and we
23:47
Speaker 3: like yourself as well, you know, and share with the
23:52
Speaker 3: general public around people's different relationships with alcohol. So that's
23:57
Speaker 3: kind of been one way. And it's also and why
24:00
Speaker 3: we engaged Chloe Kardashian in the States.
24:03
Speaker 2: This is the way you just casually drop that in
24:07
Speaker 2: How I mean she must get all of the Kardashians.
24:10
Speaker 2: I mean, even though she's no is it Courtney, the
24:13
Speaker 2: one who's considered a bit of a lazy bones by
24:15
Speaker 2: the rest of the family. How she must get thousands
24:20
Speaker 2: of things come across your deck. So how did you
24:22
Speaker 2: get her eyes on it?
24:24
Speaker 3: We work with this awesome agency and the based in
24:27
Speaker 3: the US, but it's run by Kiwi's and they know
24:33
Speaker 3: the Kardashians. So and I was sitting in the in
24:39
Speaker 3: the back of an uber in New York with Stephen,
24:42
Speaker 3: one of the guys from the agency, and we're like,
24:45
Speaker 3: we got to do something for dry January, and we
24:48
Speaker 3: come up with this idea, and he was like, well,
24:50
Speaker 3: you know, Chloe's kind of stopped drinking over the last
24:52
Speaker 3: year because she's been very focused on getting fit and healthy.
24:56
Speaker 3: And he said, and Chris, everyone knows she drinks a lot,
25:02
Speaker 3: and her children apparently make fun of her for her drinking.
25:07
Speaker 3: And so, you know, we always say our drinks taste it,
25:10
Speaker 3: you know, as good as their real thing, and it's
25:12
Speaker 3: hard to tell sometimes, And so like, why don't we
25:14
Speaker 3: get Chloe to trick Chris into thinking she's having alcohol
25:19
Speaker 3: and then tell her afterwards that you know, they're actually
25:22
Speaker 3: alcohol free. And Chris loves a Gin and tonic, And
25:26
Speaker 3: so the whole premise was that, you know, Chloe invites
25:29
Speaker 3: Chris over for drinks at five, serves her these gents,
25:33
Speaker 3: don't tell her that they don't have alcohol, and then
25:35
Speaker 3: kind of later revealed to Chris that they're non alcoholic.
25:40
Speaker 3: So Stephen took that idea to them and they loved
25:43
Speaker 3: it and agreed to do it within like two weeks.
25:48
Speaker 2: How much does that kind of past?
25:51
Speaker 3: Like so fas in one question I'm getting so often
25:55
Speaker 3: at the moment, it's like, how should you play for
25:57
Speaker 3: the Cardashians. I know some of the members of the family.
26:02
Speaker 3: You know, one post is over a million US. I
26:06
Speaker 3: can say we did not pay anywhere near that, and
26:09
Speaker 3: we were lucky because we were able to go direct
26:11
Speaker 3: to them rather than through agents and you know, pay
26:14
Speaker 3: those fees as well. So yeah, a lot less than that.
26:19
Speaker 2: A lot less than a million. Has it paid for itself? Absolutely?
26:24
Speaker 2: Has that coverage paid for Yes?
26:25
Speaker 3: I mean the day she posted our traffic to the
26:29
Speaker 3: website like skyrocketed and then on Amazon as well. We
26:32
Speaker 3: saw the immediate effect of that. You know, our sales
26:35
Speaker 3: were nine times what they were the previous month.
26:38
Speaker 2: And was that that can't be sustained obviously, but did
26:41
Speaker 2: you get a lift and sales that remained.
26:45
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we're seeing that now through some of the
26:48
Speaker 3: retail sales as well, just that extra lift in the
26:51
Speaker 3: baseline since January, since she posted.
26:56
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27:18
Speaker 2: So you're in the US, now, where do you want
27:20
Speaker 2: to go to next? Or what is the company limited by?
27:23
Speaker 2: You've got a great product, it looks fantastic. People who
27:27
Speaker 2: try it like it. So does that mean you're in
27:31
Speaker 2: the money? You can just relax now?
27:34
Speaker 3: I wish you know, this is a for those who
27:40
Speaker 3: know the industry. It's very hard to make money and
27:43
Speaker 3: beverages in the first few years and so you know,
27:47
Speaker 3: you are constantly raising and like I said, the more
27:50
Speaker 3: you grow, the more money you need. And so that's
27:53
Speaker 3: been one of the challenges is you know, raising money
27:55
Speaker 3: while still trying to manage the business. And so no,
28:00
Speaker 3: we're definitely not sitting back and relaxing at the moment.
28:04
Speaker 3: And it's become really competitive and look, it's not easy.
28:08
Speaker 3: So yeah, you know, just even the last few months
28:12
Speaker 3: has been you know, really challenging, particularly being in the US.
28:17
Speaker 3: You know, I've been spending a lot of time there
28:19
Speaker 3: because that's where the bulk of our business is now,
28:22
Speaker 3: and you know, there's a lot of uncertainty at the moment.
28:26
Speaker 3: You know, sometimes even worry about going back to the US,
28:31
Speaker 3: but you know, there aren't as many you know, people
28:35
Speaker 3: aren't investing as freely as they used to. People aren't
28:38
Speaker 3: buying things as much. You know, they want to see
28:41
Speaker 3: value in products. We haven't raised our prices and even
28:47
Speaker 3: in New Zealand since we started.
28:49
Speaker 2: Well that's not sustainable, is it.
28:52
Speaker 3: Oh, it is in a way that as we grow,
28:55
Speaker 3: we can get our costs down as well, so you know,
29:00
Speaker 3: but we want to make it accessible to everyone, so
29:03
Speaker 3: we're really trying to keep that price where it is.
29:06
Speaker 3: But yeah, so there's there's just constant challenges, you know,
29:11
Speaker 3: and it takes you have to be tough to run
29:15
Speaker 3: your own business. It takes a lot of resilience. And yeah,
29:21
Speaker 3: because there are many days where you're like, why am
29:24
Speaker 3: I doing this?
29:26
Speaker 2: I mean, you had a really successful corporate career and
29:30
Speaker 2: eat my Lunch was a good idea, but it didn't
29:33
Speaker 2: work out. Why was that?
29:37
Speaker 3: I would say, eat my Lunch was. It was amazing.
29:41
Speaker 3: It was just an incredible business model where you know,
29:47
Speaker 3: we were able to feed kids at the same time
29:50
Speaker 3: as we were selling lunches to corporate COVID obviously put
29:55
Speaker 3: a massive tent in our revenue. You know, our customers
29:59
Speaker 3: were corporates and then even after the lockdowns and so forth,
30:02
Speaker 3: people weren't coming back to the office and so people
30:05
Speaker 3: weren't ordering lunches.
30:06
Speaker 2: You know.
30:06
Speaker 3: There were less meetings and conferences and things like that
30:10
Speaker 3: where we really relied on that corporate revenue. So that
30:15
Speaker 3: was challenging. But then the government implemented the school lunches
30:19
Speaker 3: program and we were part of that for the first year,
30:23
Speaker 3: and it really was for us a decision to wind
30:27
Speaker 3: down the business because in some ways we felt like
30:31
Speaker 3: our mission was fulfilled. You know, we started out. I
30:34
Speaker 3: remember the first few weeks where we said, you know,
30:37
Speaker 3: funnily enough, the success of eating my lunch will be
30:39
Speaker 3: when we close, because that means we're no longer needed.
30:43
Speaker 3: And I felt like the government program, you know, we
30:45
Speaker 3: were feeding two and a half thousand kids a day.
30:48
Speaker 3: The government program took that tow one hundred and sixty
30:50
Speaker 3: thousand kids every day. Like to me, that's success in
30:54
Speaker 3: its own way financially and commercially as a business, it
30:59
Speaker 3: didn't makes sense for us to keep going. And the
31:02
Speaker 3: requirements of the school lunches program, you know, needing hot food,
31:08
Speaker 3: which just costs like we couldn't make it work commercially
31:12
Speaker 3: to sustain that contract, so.
31:14
Speaker 2: You didn't feel a sense of failure we neat my
31:16
Speaker 2: lunch closed.
31:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, in some ways, I actually felt like it was
31:22
Speaker 3: an achievement to get to that point because it meant,
31:25
Speaker 3: you know, kids went't relying on us anymore. It was
31:29
Speaker 3: a natural point for us to close that.
31:31
Speaker 2: Yeah. Have you ever wanted to walk away from AF?
31:37
Speaker 3: No? Not yet. Might calm one day, but yeah, it's
31:43
Speaker 3: been a vastly different business as well. My lunch was
31:47
Speaker 3: like fresh food we're making. You know, you're up at
31:49
Speaker 3: four in the morning making fresh lunches every single day,
31:53
Speaker 3: and thousands and thousands of them. It was tough, and
31:57
Speaker 3: you know, something would go wrong every day, you know,
32:00
Speaker 3: the not the right number of loaves of bread arrives
32:03
Speaker 3: and you're like, oh my god, what am I going
32:05
Speaker 3: to do? And there was such time pressure because you know,
32:07
Speaker 3: you have to deliver it at lunchtime. So whereas AF
32:12
Speaker 3: this is you know, slightly easier because it's cans of drinks.
32:18
Speaker 3: You know, they don't go off in a day. They're
32:21
Speaker 3: easy to deliver.
32:23
Speaker 2: Say, in a way, the pressures have been brought about
32:25
Speaker 2: because it's been so successful, is it? You know, success
32:28
Speaker 2: brings its own pressure.
32:29
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And you know when I started AF I
32:32
Speaker 3: was also there was a lot of internal pressure on
32:35
Speaker 3: myself going, oh, it's my second business. Now everyone's going
32:39
Speaker 3: to be looking at it with even more eyes and going,
32:42
Speaker 3: you know, well, how is she going to manage this one?
32:45
Speaker 3: And you know, is it going to end in the
32:47
Speaker 3: same way as it my lunch or you know, there's
32:49
Speaker 3: definitely Yeah, there was a lot of probably self pressure
32:55
Speaker 3: put on.
32:57
Speaker 2: I think if you're going to be in a successful startup,
33:00
Speaker 2: you also have to have a fair bit of physical resilience,
33:02
Speaker 2: don't you because there'd be plenty of sleepless nights.
33:07
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I've been traveling a lot, you know.
33:10
Speaker 2: And it's not glamorous, is it.
33:11
Speaker 3: No. Everyone thinks it's like when you say, oh, I'm
33:14
Speaker 3: off to the US. You know, sometimes you're going to
33:17
Speaker 3: like the middle of nowhere in the US, you know,
33:20
Speaker 3: like our plants are in like there's nothing around it,
33:26
Speaker 3: and the only accommodation is some really scary motel, you know,
33:30
Speaker 3: and with the only restaurant being the service station across
33:32
Speaker 3: the road. So yeah, it's not glamorous, and it does
33:36
Speaker 3: take a toll on your body.
33:37
Speaker 2: And what will make it worth it.
33:41
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so funny. I think. You know, success for
33:44
Speaker 3: me with both of businesses have always been around. First
33:51
Speaker 3: of all, as a group, we've always said we wanted
33:53
Speaker 3: to do and work in businesses that can make the
33:57
Speaker 3: world a little bit better. And for you know, In
34:00
Speaker 3: My Lunch that was really obvious. You know, we fed
34:03
Speaker 3: millions of kids for af it's about changing that drinking
34:07
Speaker 3: culture and you know, we know a little bit less
34:10
Speaker 3: alcohol in the world is a good thing. And so
34:16
Speaker 3: there's that part of it. The second one is like,
34:19
Speaker 3: you know, leaving that legacy for your kids. I know,
34:21
Speaker 3: for Eat my Lunch, it was really important, like my
34:23
Speaker 3: kids because we started that business in my house. You know,
34:27
Speaker 3: my kids were six and eight and they got to
34:31
Speaker 3: see what it takes to build a business. They were
34:34
Speaker 3: really involved.
34:36
Speaker 2: You know.
34:36
Speaker 3: I always say one of my proudest moments was when
34:39
Speaker 3: I heard them arguing with each other one day. You know,
34:42
Speaker 3: they were like maybe eight and ten or something, and
34:46
Speaker 3: they're having this huge argument and it was about who
34:50
Speaker 3: was going to take over Eat my Lunch when I died.
34:54
Speaker 2: And yeah, but that to me, but it did take
34:59
Speaker 2: a personal toll, didn't it. Setting up Eat My lunch.
35:01
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. You know, relationships really difficult to maintain because
35:09
Speaker 3: when you start a business you kind of have to
35:11
Speaker 3: go into it one hundred and twenty percent and there's
35:15
Speaker 3: not a lot left, you know, by the end of
35:17
Speaker 3: it for anything else. And so yeah, it definitely did
35:22
Speaker 3: take a toll on my relationship at the time. And
35:27
Speaker 3: then with the kids as well. You know, you always
35:29
Speaker 3: feel guilty that you can't go to everything that they've
35:33
Speaker 3: got on you miss you know, awards, ceremonies or sports games.
35:39
Speaker 3: I remembered Toby, my youngest, he said to me, Mum,
35:46
Speaker 3: and he was at primary school. He's like, why do
35:49
Speaker 3: you drop off lunch like some of the other parents
35:53
Speaker 3: do to.
35:53
Speaker 2: The cast.
35:56
Speaker 3: And I was like, what, you know, but that's what
36:01
Speaker 3: some of the moms were doing, you know, they were
36:03
Speaker 3: like coming in with hot lunches at lunchtime for some
36:06
Speaker 3: of the kids at school.
36:07
Speaker 2: And he was like, oh, how come you just.
36:10
Speaker 3: Can't do that? Or you know, I could not pick
36:13
Speaker 3: them up from school most days, and so you know
36:17
Speaker 3: we'd have help with that and things. So yeah, some
36:20
Speaker 3: of those questions, you know, it does make you thank
36:24
Speaker 3: God it is this with it.
36:27
Speaker 2: So going into af with a new relationship. Were you
36:33
Speaker 2: nervous about the toll it would take and what is
36:35
Speaker 2: the difference between starting a business and your former relationship
36:41
Speaker 2: starting a business and the new relationship.
36:43
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was definitely very against Matt, who's my husband now,
36:50
Speaker 3: being involved in the business because of the first experience,
36:54
Speaker 3: you know, and I was very much like, no, you've.
36:56
Speaker 2: Got to stay out of it.
36:59
Speaker 3: But a time he's it is hard because like even
37:04
Speaker 3: outside of business hours, you know, I talk to him
37:07
Speaker 3: about the business all the time, So in some ways
37:09
Speaker 3: he was involved anyway, whether it was officially or not.
37:13
Speaker 3: But over time we kind of just got more comfortable
37:15
Speaker 3: with it. And he's been amazing because he's very much like,
37:20
Speaker 3: you're the boss, and I think having that clarity and
37:24
Speaker 3: definition and roles that's what's made it really work this
37:28
Speaker 3: time around. So he won't you know, he's like, any
37:32
Speaker 3: final decision, that's your say. I'll give you my opinion,
37:35
Speaker 3: but ultimately you're the boss. And he really respects me
37:39
Speaker 3: in that capacity as well. He's such a great support
37:44
Speaker 3: and it's nice to talk to someone who actually understands
37:47
Speaker 3: what's going on because there's so much that happens, you know,
37:51
Speaker 3: in a day, and sometimes you can feel very lonely
37:57
Speaker 3: as an entrepreneur and as the sea dealing with all
38:01
Speaker 3: these issues on your own. And also him and I
38:03
Speaker 3: wear very complimentary skills. Yeah, he's very good with people.
38:09
Speaker 3: Oh are you going to deal with that? Can you
38:12
Speaker 3: go and have that difficult talk? And yeah, so it's
38:17
Speaker 3: worked really well this time around.
38:19
Speaker 2: Will success mean you list the company or that you're
38:23
Speaker 2: brought up for stocking amounts of money so you and
38:26
Speaker 2: the kids and make can sell the world on your own.
38:29
Speaker 3: Luxury that's the dream? Yeah, you know, definitely success means
38:35
Speaker 3: you know, some kind of reward at the end, both
38:40
Speaker 3: financially and I think generally. You know, I want to
38:45
Speaker 3: see this business do really well and have the impact
38:49
Speaker 3: that we intended for it today from the beginning. So yeah,
38:54
Speaker 3: hopefully that will come soon.
38:56
Speaker 2: And will that be you holding onto the company or
38:58
Speaker 2: are you willing to give up your baby for the
39:00
Speaker 2: right price.
39:01
Speaker 3: I think I've always been whatever's best for the company.
39:06
Speaker 3: You know, I'm not one of those founders. It's like
39:08
Speaker 3: I've got to hold on to it and never let go.
39:11
Speaker 3: And that's kind of always been the way that I've worked.
39:13
Speaker 3: It's like whatever you know what is going to put
39:17
Speaker 3: the company in the best place, in the best position.
39:20
Speaker 3: Who's going to be able to take it forward the fastest.
39:22
Speaker 3: You know, who's got global reach or manufacturing that's going
39:25
Speaker 3: to enable the company to really become profitable and sustainable.
39:30
Speaker 3: Does that mean I'm in it or not? I don't
39:33
Speaker 3: really mind either way.
39:36
Speaker 2: Ex soll and just do the quick fire questions. Early
39:38
Speaker 2: bird or night owl? I suppose you have to be
39:39
Speaker 2: both at the moment with the global I.
39:42
Speaker 3: Is such a night owl. Like so the funniest thing,
39:45
Speaker 3: like during eat my lunch, all my friends laughed at
39:47
Speaker 3: me because it was an early morning business. We had
39:50
Speaker 3: to be up at four and it was the biggest struggle,
39:54
Speaker 3: like every single day. And now I'm like, I'm a
39:57
Speaker 3: night out. I go to bed at midnight, hate get up.
40:02
Speaker 2: Where do you get your best ideas?
40:05
Speaker 3: I normally give them in the shower. That's my meeting
40:11
Speaker 3: and creative time. So I have very long showers. Sorry
40:15
Speaker 3: Auckland Water.
40:17
Speaker 2: How do you stay resilient when things get tough? What
40:20
Speaker 2: keeps you going?
40:21
Speaker 3: Again? I think knowing having been through it before and
40:24
Speaker 3: knowing that I will be able to get through it
40:26
Speaker 3: and not trying to take things too seriously or personally. Yeah,
40:31
Speaker 3: that kind of gets me through.
40:33
Speaker 2: Hard when it's your baby, though. Yeah, what's one thing
40:36
Speaker 2: you wish someone had told you when you became your
40:38
Speaker 2: own boss?
40:41
Speaker 3: Ah, how hard it was going to be. It is
40:45
Speaker 3: incredibly challenging. I wouldn't do anything else now. I can't
40:50
Speaker 3: even imagine my corporate life seemed like it was a
40:53
Speaker 3: different life. You know, I can't imagine going back into
40:56
Speaker 3: big business and working for someone else, Like I love
40:59
Speaker 3: being my own BOSSU that met. It is so hard
41:03
Speaker 3: some days, and I think nothing really quite prepares you
41:07
Speaker 3: for that, and that how much you have to give
41:11
Speaker 3: up to be that. And in some ways it's like
41:14
Speaker 3: having kids. You know, no one people can tell you
41:18
Speaker 3: and give you all the advice, but until you're in it,
41:21
Speaker 3: you can't really experience. You know, that is one of
41:24
Speaker 3: the most difficult jobs.
41:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't experience how tough it is. All the
41:27
Speaker 2: joy yeah as well, Yeah, in moments and what really
41:31
Speaker 2: excites you.
41:34
Speaker 3: Ah, I mean there's already things, you know, even the
41:38
Speaker 3: smallest wins these days, you know, you're just like, oh
41:41
Speaker 3: my god, that's so cool. You get an email from
41:43
Speaker 3: someone who tells you how much they love AF. I
41:46
Speaker 3: got a comment the other day from someone saying, you know,
41:49
Speaker 3: af's really like literally changed my life because you know,
41:53
Speaker 3: I had to stop drinking and this has been the
41:56
Speaker 3: one thing that's really helped me. And so it's those
41:59
Speaker 3: kind of that kind of feedback or even you know,
42:01
Speaker 3: when I've had young Asian women, you know, message me
42:06
Speaker 3: and say it's so great seeing a female Asian entrepreneur
42:12
Speaker 3: like you, you know, because there aren't that many around,
42:15
Speaker 3: and you're like, oh wow, you know, like I never
42:19
Speaker 3: thought I would have that kind of impact on others.
42:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can experience how tough it is or the
42:24
Speaker 2: joy of it as well. The Golden Moments that was
42:28
Speaker 2: Lisa King from AF Drinks. Just love how candid she
42:32
Speaker 2: was about highs and lows of her experience as a
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Speaker 2: business owner. If you want to hear more stories about
42:38
Speaker 2: what it's really like to be a boss, make sure
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Speaker 2: you check out Bosses Unfiltered on iHeartRadio or wherever you
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Speaker 2: get your podcasts. Catch you next time.