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Effective Communication in Uncertain Times with Lindsay Lapaquette · Authentic Living

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Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
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things that really matter in our lives.
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And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
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Hi, everyone.
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It's Sal Roxanne Derhodge, authentic living with Roxanne.
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Thanks for tuning in again, this week.
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Today, I have a colleague, and that's I've spent quite a lot of time with in the last
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little while.
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In January, we were in Toronto together and, have gotten to know each other very, very well.
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Cinnancy is a workplace communication expert.
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And, in this day and age, not that communication hasn't been very important, but
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even more vitally important in the times of rent.
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So, Nancy, thanks for joining me, today.
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Yeah.
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Thanks for having me, Roxanne.
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I'm excited to talk to you again.
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So she's a repeater.
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She's been on once before, but she has lots more she can share.
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So let's see.
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Obviously, you know, and everyone I know often will discuss the importance of communication.
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And even more so in this time, if you do something that I think is separating out,
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people that, were maybe struggling before and maybe people that have had to pivot quickly in
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reference to a lot of the companies or even the leadership or some of the frontline employees,
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companies that I've been talking to.
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So let's let's just jump right into what you're seeing with communication and some of the
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different needs that are coming about, or are they different in in this kind of a time of
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uncertainty?
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Yeah.
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So I I I think the needs the patterns are the same or similar, but they're really being
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amplified.
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So I'm seeing that people who have a tendency, to listen and be empathetic and and help others
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out or doing that considerably, those who have a tendency to become much more stressed And to
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to to pass that stress on in the way they communicate, that's coming out more.
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And I don't wanna you know, say that it's necessarily one or the other.
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So for myself, I'm both more empathetic and and also times more stressed and and passing on
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that stress in the way I convey to others.
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So I think, like I said, there's similar patterns, but It's affecting us more to to
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stronger extents right now.
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So, obviously, we know that stress impacts is in so so many ways.
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And, you know, I I've I've often said, and I think probably multiple times on this podcast
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that if you're If you're saying you're not stressed right now, I would be checking for a
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pulse because we are all stressed, before Lindsey and I got on, we're talking about, her
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with her 2 children at home and and heard her husband both trying to, like, juggle their
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business and and and, you know, the hours and hours of homework that our kids are getting,
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and they're in, Quebec.
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And from a lot of the people that I'm also coaching, there's a so much more pressure
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because now everything's living under the same roof.
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Whereas before, you know, we could kinda leave the environments you know, de stress in certain
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ways.
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All those things are now gone.
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Right?
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Like, you know, we used to complain about commutes which sometimes commutes for a de
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stressor if you think about it.
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And now people used to say, you know, I I couldn't wait for that 20 minutes to kinda jump
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in the car and drive down the highway.
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And then before I know it, I'm home, and then I'm kind of feeling like I'm pivoted out of it.
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That's something that's safe for instance, been lost.
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So stress is definitely, I would say exponentially gone up.
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And so of course that's going to impact people's ability to to like you say be more
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empathetic because people at home maybe are feeling a little bit more under the radar.
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Like, you know, a lot more pressure on them.
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And their roles are all in the same space.
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So Yeah.
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How how when you when you train and, Lindsay does a lot of training with communication.
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How do you approach teaching about stress and the impact of communication in workplaces?
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Yeah.
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So can I actually share a story before I I I get to your question?
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Sure.
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Sure.
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Well, let me address your question a bit at the same time.
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So for me, the way we communicate with one another is intimately tied to our awareness of
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how we are feeling in the moment whether we're aware of how stressed we are or not.
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So are we saying to somebody?
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I need a minute.
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I'm feeling really stressed right now.
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I can't think about that at the moment.
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I can't concentrate.
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Or are we yelling at them when we get interrupted?
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Because we're not even necessarily aware of how stressed we are or don't have the skills to
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communicate that differently.
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And so the story I'd actually wanted to share was that my son yesterday, so my kids have just
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started online schooling this week.
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And last night, he actually sent to me, Mommy, it's really hard for me to go on zoom and off
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again and have to go back and pay attention again to switch between school and home and
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school and home, it's too hard for me.
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And I said to him, you know, Logan, everyone in the world right now is struggling with how I
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said we used to have home in one spot work in another for some of those who are already
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combined like you and I but home in one spot work in another and school in another space.
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And and so we knew when we were in that space, what we had to focus on and it didn't all blend
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together.
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And I said, now that's kind of been smooshed up.
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I was explaining it to a ten year old, and we're trying to figure out all all of this.
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And so That awareness of how our circumstances has changed and how that's gonna affect, how
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we're managing the situation is going to help us communicate better because instead of,
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ranting and raving about, things that are going on with you know, happens to the best of us,
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myself included, we we can have more productive conversations around what's not working and
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find solutions.
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So when I when I work with individuals or organizations.
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A lot of the work I do is helping bring an awareness to when they are in what I call the
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reactive zone of communication, which is the zone where we are responding instinctually
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Right?
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Instinctively, we're not, there's not necessarily space between what we're
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experiencing on an emotional level and how we're reacting.
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Or are we in what I call the receptive zone of communication, whereas where something
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upsetting might happen, but we have the awareness to sort of give ourselves time to
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come down, from that big upset.
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And that often can help us make a better decision in terms of how we're interacting with
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the world.
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So that's a lot of the core of the work that I do, with organizations.
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It's creating that gap.
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Right?
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I often say that it's kinda like something happens and stressed.
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I react I do something, and then I go, oh, gosh.
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I should have thought that one through.
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Or
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Right.
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I could have done that a little bit better.
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So it's it's really kinda teaching people about those zones And each person is so different,
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right, with in reference to the reaction.
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And sometimes some people unaware potentially how abrupt they might come across or how
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cryptive they might become until someone says, do you realize, Kanye, that you came across a
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little bit you know, rude or, you know, and then they go, oh my goodness.
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I'm so sorry.
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Sometimes it's that lack of awareness to your point, and then they might go, oh, that's just
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my way and not them not understand the impact that they're having on the person across from
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them.
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So I would think that that that education piece probably would be very, very vital for people
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to start to understand.
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Absolutely.
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So I I see there's 4 sort of fundamental pieces to effective communication, and I think a lot
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of work on communication centers around sort of what I see as the top layer, which is how what
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words do I say?
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How do I start an interaction when I'm feeling awkward and don't wanna address the subject.
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And those are all important things.
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But if you dig a little deeper, you have to be able to manage your reactions to emotions going
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on or manage you know, when you're feeling really uncomfortable or feeling really upset,
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you have to be able to manage those feelings to be able to stay in that interaction and not
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either blow up or wanna disappear.
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You have to have an awareness of your own, your own behaviors and your own your own, you know,
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what's what's going on inside of you, and then you have to have an understanding of someone
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else's reality of the situation.
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So the ability to take someone else's Put yourself another somebody else's shoes
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essentially and see the situation from their point of view, and then it's how we
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communicate.
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With each other.
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Because if you focus just on the words we use, but you haven't understood the other person's
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perspective or you know, you're not aware that you're being too abrupt, you can only get so
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far.
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So stresses are high to your point.
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I'm gonna say there's a probably a lot of people bumping up against each other, you know,
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because they are so stressed and, you know, we're we're, you know, we're talking about can
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you do those types of things?
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But it becomes a little bit more difficult.
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I know when people are pivoting into, like, to your point, you and I have worked, you know, we
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work from home a lot other than when we travel.
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So we've kinda, you know, I've been virtual now going back, goodness since 2003.
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With my corporate and, you know, and how poorly I did it then, you know, starting off And then,
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you know, obviously, when I started my own business, you know, I was it was in, 2010, it
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it's it's a difficult transition, you know, when you kind of try to do it because we're so
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accustomed, you know, to seeing people and connecting Right?
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And then when I if let's say I have a conflict with you, Lindsay, it's easier if I have to
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walk past your office, kinda, and I'm thinking, I have that thing to talk to Lindsey about, but
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I keep seeing you.
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So it's gonna kinda keep coming up.
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But when I'm kinda in the context of seeing you here, And that stress, I would think, could
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potentially be even deeper ingrained in me and that I have to hold it together to be able have
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the conversation, but there's not the impetus of running by you at the at the coffee station
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or in the lunch room, so I can kind of put things a little bit deeper.
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Do you find that, in the virtual environment sometimes, things can go a little bit get a bit
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more hidden and get become a bit explosive.
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Absolutely.
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So explosive in the sense that I think there's a lot more brewing under the surface that that
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isn't getting addressed because there isn't that ongoing contact in between.
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So let's say you're on a virtual meeting with a team and somebody says something that upsets
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you and It's harder too if there's, I don't know, say ten people on the call.
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It's harder for you to interject in that moment to say something because other people can't you
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know, there's little squares on a Zoom called, and then nobody's or not nobody, but it's not
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as likely somebody is going to notice your body language that is showing that you're up set.
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And so the moment might go unnoticed, and then it's in it's on you to then bring that up, but
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the conversation keeps flowing.
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And then a few minutes later, it starts to feel like it's not timely anymore to bring that up.
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And then because you don't bump into that person in the hallway, if you are someone who
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would have addressed it, it it might just disappear.
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And those tensions, I think, are building a lot right now in in people because everyone's
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already really strapped in terms of their pressures at home The pressures in the
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workplace, you know, people I've spoken to companies who have told me they are trying
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their best to make sure their employees are feeling appreciated and, you know, they wanna
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retain their employees and keep them motivated, but they said to me, you know, we we know our
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next product needs to get out by deadline, or we don't have the cash flow to pair our
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employees.
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So if we don't get this out, we they also feel they need to sort of squeeze the employees to
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get the work done because they don't want to tell the employees, hey.
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Your job is depending on this product.
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So, I think all of that really feeds into how little tensions are building up more because
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people's buckets are already full.
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There's not a lot of space for extra little stressors, and so people they bother people a
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lot a lot more than, so, you know, whereas something before they might have you might have
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left go or it might not have bothered you as much.
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People are on edge for understandable reasons.
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Well, because of the fear.
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Right?
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Like, you know, here in Ontario, we were talking about getting out of phase 1 into phase
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2 and now they've delayed phase 1 because we've seen a spike in in in cases again here.
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So here we are.
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We're kind of trucking along kind of thinking, oh, we're getting a little bit better.
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And now the the mute the pause button's been hit again.
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So that fear level that we've all have, you know, it's kinda we're we're we're maybe
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managing it, and now it's going up a little bit more.
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So And you put that, like you said, you know, everybody's most people are working from home.
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If you have a job and a lot of people have to be thankful they do, but still even in that
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space, people are still wondering, am I gonna have a job with these lifts?
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So that's an additional.
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That's like a, you know, that's like turning up the heat on the bunsen burner even
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I'm sorry.
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Higher.
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Right?
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So your points like you're talking about maybe leadership is saying, we gotta get product out
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by deadline because we're we're not gonna have the cash flow to be able to keep our employees
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so you could understand whether, you know, that stress level is bubbling at a at a, you know,
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such a such a higher level.
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Yeah.
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Or even so I look here in Quebec.
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So, non essential businesses were allowed to open.
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I think it was May 11th outside of Montreal.
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And then in Montreal, it was just this past Monday, May 25th.
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And, there are employees who don't feel safe going back to work.
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Right?
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They might be, in a position where they live with somebody who is, let's say, you know,
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compromise and, so I will caveat to say I have not read any new legislative landing new
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documentation coming out in the past week or so.
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So this might have changed But, about a week ago, the the rules from the equivalent of what
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would be WSIB or workers safety, were that if you lived with someone at risk, you still I
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think you get 10 days of of sick time you can use to care for someone, but beyond that, you
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need to return to work if your employer is asking you to.
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And so that stress, I I can't imagine how huge that must be.
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My husband is high risk.
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And I'm I'm grateful.
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I'm not in a position where I have to decide, do I leave my job in an economy where I don't
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know how I might get another, or do I potentially put a family member at risk?
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So I think all of these You know, each person is experiencing a different combination of
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these types of stressors, some more than others.
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But overall, stress levels are are are high, and it's affecting immensely, I think, how we
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communicate with others.
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I mean, you can see it on on social media how people are are tearing into one another with,
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you know, people who have different opinions for even this morning, I, haven't been out in a
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car a lot since COVID, and I drove home this morning and a lady cut me off and you know,
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honked and and gave me the finger.
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And, you know, I thought there's a reflection of how stressed people are
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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That's a reality.
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So if you if we go back again to, the elements of in person, We have less of that.
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We have a lot more things kinda layered up.
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We could have our separate kind of lives.
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We have our personal lives.
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Then we'd have our workplace lives, and then we'd have our social lives.
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And even that, I mean, it's it's come down to screen time to be able to to see family members
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and and family, those types of things.
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So the nonverbal element, let's talk a little bit about that.
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Right?
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Because, I mean, I'm seeing, you know, half of you, you're seeing half of me There's 2 of us,
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so I can kind and I know Lindsey very well.
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You know?
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So I I I kinda know a bit of her nuances.
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I think she would know a bit of mine.
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But if we were on the screen potentially with 20 other or maybe say a team of 15, and there's
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dissension or conflict, a brew, like your like, how are you reading potentially if I'm the lead
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of the team or even if I'm working on a project within the team am I able to read the verbals
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or the not well, the verbals were hearing, but the nonverbals on an ongoing, I would think
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that that would be something that would be a little bit more difficult now.
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Absolutely.
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Well, let's just look at the fact that if you want to give people the impression you're
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looking in the eye, looking them in the eye, you need to be looking at the camera and not
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person on the screen.
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Right.
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And I'm not looking at the camera.
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I'm looking at you.
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So I probably look like I'm off looking somewhere else.
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Yeah.
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And I'm looking at the camera, so I'm not following your nonverb
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See?
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And these are two people that do this stuff all the time.
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Yeah.
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And so with you, I feel I know you well enough that I can look at the camera and and I kind of
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have a good feel for, You know, I don't I don't have that same need to read your nonverbal.
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I was on a networking call with 16 brand new people just prior to this.
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And I couldn't look at the camera because I don't know any of them, and I and I I couldn't
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I needed to see that that information on their face.
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So the fact that it either it looks like someone is looking at you and they're not, or
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if they are looking at you, it looks like they're not.
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That's a big disconnect in the way we are used to, measuring whether or not somebody is paying
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attention to right, because before averted eyes was a sign that somebody was perhaps not paying
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attention, whereas now it's a sign that somebody may be looking at you right on the
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screen.
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And unless you know that explicitly and have thought that through, you may read that
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incorrectly.
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Absolutely.
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And what a good point.
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Right?
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Like, I mean, so that affinity comes from us knowing each other.
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However, with all the the stresses that we're talking about on teams, their attention is, I'm
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gonna say probably potentially seeing a different iteration of your team members
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because we're all dealing with this and, you know, maybe east to west coast or you know,
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couple of different locations.
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So and then people are trying to come together to to to work on common projects maybe that
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they started prior to and then all of a sudden they're having, you know, to work again.
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So I could see, how there'd be a lot more miscommunication or misreading of nonverbals.
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And if you're I mean, I'm a hand user, so people would expect me to use my hand But if
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I'm kinda trying to think really, you know, let's say I'm really, really stressed, I might
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be trying to kind of be a bit more contained, but that may be perceived as or Roxanne's not
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listening or she's not she's not as fluid or what's up with her or there's so many
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variations that could be if if you perceive me as acting differently from what you're
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accustomed to even though the context is a screen versus in person.
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Yeah.
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And so one thing I found really helpful in so I've done a lot of remote work prior to COVID
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hitting.
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And I have led groups of, you know, maybe twenty people through big discussions on big
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topics via zoom.
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And that's hard because when you're trying to get the read on what everyone thinks about a
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project, when, you're not in person, it gets what I found was it got to be hard to both lead
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the discussion and truly reflect on what everyone was saying and moderate.
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Like, moderate speaking time and making sure people were heard and reading other people's
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nonverbal, which which I can do very well in person, I found it much more challenging online
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and what what I had moved to doing in in my business was that I would have somebody with
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me.
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Mhmm.
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So if I'm leading the discussion, I have somebody with me from my team who's reading
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other people's nonverbal who may then, like, after I finish saying something or somebody
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else may say, you know, I just noticed that John seemed a little confused about that point.
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John, do you have a question?
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Because it's harder when as a participant to interject because usually what happens is one
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person start stops talking and then and 5 will start if you're in a group of 20 because that
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nonverbal You can't see them leaning forward.
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So, you know, they're the next one who's gonna speak.
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All that information is is missing in many ways.
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That's so that's a good point.
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So ready having a second set of eyes, because we're not physically in the same space.
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And it just I mean, I went and so I oftentimes, you can do that in person too.
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You might miss a queue, but, you know, you could kinda kinda scan the room and quickly
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pick that up again, but So definitely getting someone to assist you or moderate with you is
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is a helpful thing.
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What are some tips then that you think that you would give people to help them?
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Let's say, you know, there's people there's leaders on I mean, we're talking about
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awareness.
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And you know, I talk a lot about authenticity and awareness and, you know, how does, you
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know, what you do align with what your value as a leader and as an employee, all those things.
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But are there some basic tips that you could give people?
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That just wanna communicate better period verbally, non verbally.
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What are some of the basic things that you think people could might consider or might
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maybe start to up apply.
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And maybe some of it would be really basic, but I think sometimes we assume that people know
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some of the things that we're talking about.
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Yeah.
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So I think one of the ones for, you know, when we're when we're virtual, is that we really
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have to be mindful of the space that It becomes, I think, even more differ difficult
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for someone who is more introverted to interject, in a virtual setting.
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The other thing is that not everyone is going to be comfortable, you know, on on virtual when
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you speak.
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If you're in speaker view, you're now on the full screen.
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Not everyone's going to be comfortable in a larger meeting being being in the spotlight
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like that.
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So being mindful of how you're setting up activities and expectations to meet the comfort
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level and and personalities of different individuals, I think, is important.
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My son shared with me yesterday, so my son is quite introverted and and has a lot of anxiety
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and yesterday said to me, and he really doesn't like doing school on Zoom.
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And I was asking why?
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And he said, I don't like having to talk in front of the class.
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And I said to him, Do you have to talk in front of the class when you're at school?
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And he said, yes.
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It's different, though.
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It's not the same.
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I feel so strange.
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You know?
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And and it I I I think there are definitely adults out there too who this virtual world is
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difficult for.
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So Can you, you know, make sure that those people have been heard by sending them a little
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message afterwards and saying, hey.
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We discussed this.
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I'm curious your thoughts on it.
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Or you know, finding ways to include them, can you use there's polls, you know, slido I'm sure
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you're aware of, and there's other polls where people can share their opinions in ways that
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doesn't force them to have to be speaking in front of.
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In in front of everybody else, but you're still ensuring they're participating.
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The other thing that I think is really important is ensuring that we're being a lot
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more explicit about communication.
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So I think this was needed before, but now more than ever, all those things that I either were
25:28
going unsaid or you're not sure of, you you need to bring it up to clarify.
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So one example that I was told recently was a team who, had had a meeting and they'd set a
25:40
deadline and one team had under or the the leader, let's say, had set the deadline for net
25:47
Friday, but the team had understood it was in 3 weeks.
25:49
I'm not sure exactly how that happened, but what they told me was that had we been in the
25:53
off We would have bumped into one another and realized, you know, somebody would have said,
25:57
how's that project going?
25:58
And they would have said, oh, we haven't started it yet because We have other
26:02
priorities.
26:02
It's not due for 3 weeks.
26:04
That didn't happen because they didn't bump into one another.
26:07
And so the day it was due or the day after, the person it was due to said, you know, hey,
26:12
where's where's this project?
26:14
And it wasn't started.
26:17
So You know, if we say, for instance, give the deadline, maybe have the person repeat back,
26:23
can you just confirm to me you know, or or or like following up with an email, we have to be
26:28
really careful on, making sure the way we think we communicated, that's the same way the person
26:36
received it.
26:38
Yeah.
26:38
It's a good point.
26:39
Right?
26:40
Because, you know, we I often say that in our little worlds, our communication is perfect.
26:47
Right?
26:47
Until you have to send it to someone else and then you realize, woah, how did where'd you get
26:52
add from.
26:52
So it's, you know, and I often say it's at figure 8.
26:55
Right?
26:55
It's kinda I send a message, and then somehow it gets translated over here.
27:00
And then it comes back at you and you're oh, I didn't even say that.
27:04
Like, where did you get that?
27:05
Yes.
27:05
I think it's touching touching base, you know, your introverts, you know, making sure your
27:12
introverts have a voice to say.
27:13
Yeah.
27:14
I know we're gonna put you on the spot here.
27:16
You know, Roxanne, you don't normally say much.
27:19
But I just wanna give people a platform that are less likely to be verbal.
27:24
Like you said, things like having polls, sometimes having maybe getting to the point
27:30
where you do have a minute taker, even though maybe it wasn't the norm with most of your
27:34
meetings or a lot of times your Zoom meetings get recorded, not that people have the extra
27:39
time.
27:39
But if you, let's say, you get lost in something, you can go back to the files to
27:42
check the Zoom record to to ensure you, you know, you got those pieces.
27:46
There's a lot of different things then that I would say you'd have to start to put in place.
27:51
Yeah.
27:51
And I think also, you know, at the end of that meeting and I think many people do this
27:55
already, but making a really concise summary of, okay, This is this these are the decisions
28:01
we've made.
28:01
This is what we're focusing on.
28:03
And so say that in the meeting, then send a really short email summary so that the
28:09
expectations hopefully should be clear because they were stated in the meeting.
28:14
They were summarized and recapped.
28:16
Verbally, and then they were sent again in writing.
28:18
And and then, of course, with the question of if there's any confusion, please reach out and
28:22
let me know.
28:25
It's I think somebody said this to me, and it made so much sense.
28:30
They said now is the time to overcommunicate, overcommunicate, overcommunicate.
28:34
And then if you've done that, you know, you've communicated just enough.
28:39
Oh, it's not always the case.
28:40
Right?
28:41
Yeah.
28:41
Communicate, communicate, communicate, and then do some more just in case somebody missed the
28:45
the first three times.
28:47
And then still, there's gonna be things that that go awry.
28:50
Yeah.
28:50
Now in reference to, if I'm on a team and there has been some residual conflicts, what's the
28:59
best approach to, you know, to go about in person?
29:03
Obviously, you know, you do a lot of resolving conflicts and stuff like that.
29:07
But in this pivot, people didn't have time.
29:09
Right?
29:09
Like, it happened.
29:10
It happened, you know, March, whatever, 15, 16, 17th, based on where you were.
29:14
On all of a sudden, people were home.
29:17
And a lot of companies have just been trying to stay afloat since.
29:20
Yep.
29:21
Oops.
29:21
If I'm a team member and let's say I've had kinda ongoing conflict with maybe 1 or 2 other
29:27
people.
29:28
I've been able to manage it, but I'm finding now that with with all the stressors and
29:32
pressures at home that I'm having a a more difficult time, managing kind of communication
29:39
on the team, what what would be some of the things that you might suggest?
29:42
I should
29:43
so if if it's if it's you who's having challenges with a specific team member, my
29:49
suggestion, first off, and this would be the same in person would be to address it directly
29:54
with the person.
29:56
Because a lot of what I see happening is that that person who's having the difficulties
30:00
instead goes straight to their supervisor or sometimes even the supervisors supervisor.
30:06
And, it it doesn't give the opportunity to the person you're having difficulty with to say,
30:15
oh, hey.
30:16
Wow.
30:16
I'm sorry.
30:17
I didn't realize that that was difficult under repair.
30:20
And in fact, by not dealing with it with that person directly, you're sort of creating a
30:25
bigger rift because, of course, now they feel you've went behind their back, and and they
30:29
don't trust you.
30:30
So Of course, this depends on the extent of what's going on, you know, but it I I really
30:36
think as a first step.
30:38
It's addressing it with them and just saying, you know, hey, earlier, you know, when you when
30:43
you mentioned that when when you when you said I was disorganized, because I hadn't handed in,
30:50
you know, this whatever.
30:53
I didn't appreciate being spoken about like that.
30:56
You know?
30:57
So just just saying what happens.
30:59
So it's really about focusing on the behaviors and not, like, not not insulting the person.
31:06
Focusing on the behaviors.
31:07
You didn't like stating what you don't like and you know, and what you need respectfully and
31:14
and calmly.
31:16
And then you're gonna see what the other person's gonna do.
31:18
Some people may apologize.
31:19
Some people may become even more, disparaging and and and if it gets to that point, then
31:27
perhaps once you've attempted to address it a few times, I would say.
31:32
That's maybe the point at which you'd bring on on a supervisor.
31:36
But I think The what I what I'm seeing and suspecting is gonna continue happening is there
31:44
are risks happening in teams because these issues aren't going aren't being addressed.
31:48
Like you said, people have been so busy and stressed But there will be a cost to this in
31:55
business when things slow down and whether we end up back in the office or we stay remote,
32:03
the the cohesion needed to work well together on on projects is going to be impacted if this
32:10
stuff stays unaddressed long term.
32:12
It's kinda like the, calm after the storm to some degree.
32:17
Right?
32:17
We keep the ship afloat that we relax and all the things that all the ripple effects that we
32:23
didn't address along the way really comes to the surface at that point.
32:26
And then teams will have to address it.
32:28
They'll have no no, you know, industries or sectors will have to address it, you know,
32:32
because then people won't be able to function the way, that they need to to be able to to to
32:38
get back to optimal functioning.
32:40
Yeah.
32:41
No.
32:41
For for from the legal perspective, this will think of, you know, a little bit about We're
32:45
talking about the stressors and stuff like that.
32:50
What can leaders do?
32:51
Like, so assume again that, you know, like we're saying, everybody is dealing with things
32:55
in a different way.
32:57
People are maybe hyperfunctioning just to be able to secure their jobs.
33:02
They're they're dealing with all the pressures that we've been discussing so far.
33:07
So as a leader, what kind of things do you think And now we, you know, we also have to
33:11
think that the leader has to take care of him or herself along the way, you know, probably
33:15
ten times as much because they have to come back and function with their teams.
33:19
What could they do to kind of address some of the stressors?
33:23
And but at the same time, keeping people accountable accountable for their ability to
33:28
communicate effectively.
33:30
So I think the one you said is is to me as the foundation is if you do not take care of
33:35
yourself as a leader, First of all, your modeling behaviors to your employees that are
33:41
not the behaviors you want them to adopt.
33:43
So the first thing I think is really ensuring that you're doing what you need in your day,
33:49
not just for your business, but for yourself, to be able to address situations calmly and
33:56
productively and make decisions from a place that is not in that panic state, which, you
34:03
know, it makes sense that that so many have been in this state because the pressure people
34:07
are under is immense, but You know, it might be really little things like going for a walk
34:12
before you step into the office for 20 minutes, again, for 20 minutes at lunch.
34:16
If you have to take a call while you're walking at lunch.
34:19
I mean, it's not I I do promote real breaks, but I know some people feel they can't take
34:24
that right now.
34:25
Just try your best to find the smallest of moments to, bring some well-being into your
34:32
life.
34:33
To me, that's the foundation.
34:36
Beyond that, though, I think what I'm seeing is that it's employers who have been able to be
34:42
flexible as flexible as they can given the demands of their industry, who are who are able
34:50
to who've been able to shift through this with the least impact on their employees.
34:56
And I still think there's been impact on those employees with flexible employers, but It is
35:04
you have to also look at the situation from an employee's perspective.
35:09
So I was told by somebody that They were expecting their employees to be available from
35:15
9 to 5 with children or not on all calls as needed.
35:20
And, you know, it was not acceptable for a child to walk into the room.
35:23
And I I understand that from a business perspective.
35:27
The reality is that that's an impossible setup for anyone who has young children.
35:32
Absolutely.
35:35
So either we're as a leader, we're putting our employees in a position where, a, they're gonna
35:39
start to resent you and and their job, but they're gonna stay because the economy is bad.
35:48
You know, there's not a lot of wiggle room here.
35:50
So if you can look at, are there ways to, you know, I I was speaking with somebody earlier
35:57
who their employees are are getting up early and doing some work before the kids get up,
36:03
doing some before the kids after the kids go to bed, but he also said this is not sustainable
36:08
at long term.
36:10
We're looking for a solution to this because he recognizes that although he's been very
36:15
flexible, the cost on his employee's well-being is going to impact how they're functioning at
36:22
work.
36:22
Right?
36:22
You cannot be on from 6 AM until midnight day after day after day and not see an impact on
36:30
how people communicate with one another and on how productive they're gonna be in their day.
36:35
So I think leaders like him are going to fare best in in this situation.
36:43
And I think, you know, I was coaching someone earlier and, she gets up at 5, works till noon.
36:49
So her husband could, then get time.
36:51
So she takes the children at at noon, and then he gets to work from noon to 7 or whatever.
36:57
So that's a if you think about it, that's a lot.
36:59
Right?
37:00
Because, you know, 2 young children, they still have to do the whatever Zoom and all that.
37:04
At some point, you're right.
37:06
You know, I remember when I was in corporate and we would talk about the, you know, I'm
37:09
gonna date myself from the here, Lindsey, the Blackberry policy where you could stop at 5.
37:16
You could send an email and the service would not deliver it until 6 o'clock the next
37:21
morning.
37:22
Oh, that sounds great.
37:23
I didn't know it existed.
37:24
Yes.
37:24
In corporate.
37:25
They had to and we had to implement it way back when we went, because what would happen is
37:29
somebody would get up to a clock and they'd be working at something, let's say, because they
37:33
couldn't sleep or they were late, and it's keep start sending things.
37:37
So a lot of big companies institute the policy that you could work on stuff, but know that if
37:42
you sent it once they put this policy in place, it wouldn't be delivered until 6 o'clock the
37:47
next morning, which really kind of created that space for people to not think that, oh my
37:52
goodness.
37:52
You know, Lindsay's working at 2:30 in the morning.
37:54
What the heck am I doing sleep?
37:56
They they would create a lot of tension.
37:58
Right?
37:58
But now we have the opposite because of workplaces in the home.
38:02
Yeah.
38:03
Right.
38:03
So you don't have that disconnection.
38:05
So I think the the, conscious leader would try to be as adaptable as possible.
38:12
Yeah.
38:12
To create the space, right,
38:13
for people to do that.
38:15
Yeah.
38:15
And I think the needs are different for different people, you know, because when I talk
38:20
to my colleagues who have older children, they they're, you know, I'm I'm talking, you know,
38:28
sort of late teens age, their kids are online on school, all day during the day.
38:34
And so they're able to get their work done in different ways, whereas I speak to my sister
38:39
who has, you know, a young baby and a two year old, they're struggling a lot more to get their
38:45
work done.
38:46
So I think there also needs to be an understanding that, this is affecting different
38:52
people differently and we can always see on the surface So what I mean by that is by looking at
38:59
the the factors of someone's life, you know, how many children they have or We don't always
39:04
know all the pieces that play into that, right, and all of their responsibilities.
39:09
So it's, I think as a leader, it's also being sensitive to listening to what your employees
39:14
are telling you, you know, creating an environment where if somebody says to you you
39:22
know, I'm doing everything I can to to get my hours done and I don't know what else to do.
39:28
I mean, I'm gonna be honest and tell you I don't even know the exact solution to that
39:32
problem, but I think what you can do is is open up the conversation or be be willing to listen
39:40
to what they're saying instead of just saying, well, listen.
39:42
You know, you're you always 7 hours a day and figure it out.
39:45
You need to be available.
39:46
I know you have kids, but, this is your job.
39:48
And if you wanna keep it, do it.
39:51
I think part of what people need is for you to hear how difficult it is.
39:55
And instead of having the conversation that way, to be more empathetic.
40:01
Like, you talked about authenticity earlier.
40:03
You know, I think it's okay to share I, you know, I understand how difficult this is.
40:08
We're all having a a tough time with this right now and and ask them what they need And
40:14
sometimes what they're gonna ask for is going to be so much smaller than what you fear.
40:19
Mhmm.
40:20
So I think it's it's about communication and being open.
40:24
And really having people, know in your questioning or your that you really care.
40:30
Right?
40:31
Like, there may be no perfect solution at the end of the day, but at least people feel
40:35
validated and that you're you're thinking about them.
40:40
Like one particular, CEO that I interviewed for my new book, he needed to reach out, like, he
40:47
has 200 employees and what he did is that was what he did.
40:53
He they calendarized his day so that he could do a to reach out.
40:57
He says, Nada, hey.
40:58
How are you doing?
40:59
Nice to talk to you.
41:00
Hang up.
41:00
But really kind of chatted with, you know, I don't want you to worry.
41:04
I'm here.
41:05
We're in it together.
41:06
Let me know what you need.
41:08
There's no pressure.
41:09
You know, so he And I thought, wow, what what a phenomenal thing?
41:13
And, you know, they they try to set it up so that he could do a certain amount of calls
41:17
every single day.
41:18
Think we at the time we talked, it was 7 weeks out, and he had almost done all 200 calls.
41:24
Right?
41:24
So that's the impact.
41:26
Yes.
41:26
Yeah.
41:26
Right.
41:27
When you're when you're struggling, And, you know, feeling like you can't keep up at this
41:32
rhythm and the CEO calls you and is like, hey.
41:34
I hear you.
41:35
I see you because that's essentially what they're saying in in in different words.
41:40
I see your struggle.
41:41
I appreciate you.
41:42
I appreciate what you're giving to this company.
41:45
It goes a really, really I just got shivers saying that.
41:48
It goes a long way.
41:50
And I do think it's it's the companies who when I look at the return to work, for instance, the
41:58
the people who are afraid to come back, those who are being told, you need to come back
42:03
anyhow.
42:04
This is the law.
42:05
Do it.
42:06
If that person comes back and gets infected and their loved one gets infected and dies, you may
42:13
be facing a lawsuit because that employee may say the conditions were not safe.
42:18
You didn't put in place enough safety measures.
42:20
Whereas if you have a conversation with them and say, I understand.
42:24
I, you know, I understand your husband is high risk.
42:26
I know how scary.
42:28
That must feel very scary.
42:31
You know, I wish we could arrange things otherwise.
42:34
Unfortunately, with the demands of the company right now, I don't know what else we can do
42:39
because we do need employees and, you know, basically show them the law and say that this
42:44
is the situation we're in.
42:46
I think at the very least, you're creating relationship with that employee where whether
42:52
they return to work or not, the it's not going to create that same toxic environment within
42:59
the company, as as the other scenario.
43:03
Right.
43:04
It's like, Gladwell, and then I think it was the tipping point, I believe in one of his
43:07
folks.
43:08
He talked a little bit about, physicians that actually get sued versus ones that don't.
43:13
When there's a death of an, family member and the ones that actually took the time when he
43:19
did the research, to get to know the individual family members, those were the least likely
43:25
that they would, actually take a litigious point of view if there was a death of a family
43:30
So I think to those basics, right, getting to really know someone.
43:34
And I think we're in that space where we're ready, you know, all of us have that fear.
43:39
You know, I have 2 elderly parents and, you know, you I know, like you said, your husband
43:44
is immune compromised.
43:45
Like, there's there's lots of people that are worried, you know, about their family members.
43:50
So you can see that fear, along with everything else.
43:53
It's a lot of things swirling.
43:55
Yeah.
43:55
Lindsey, this has been phenomenal yet again.
43:59
You know, first time around, I think we talked about lots of different things, but, what, what
44:04
breadth you've brought to the space around communication.
44:08
And I I I've I've learned so many little things today, and I'm sure that everybody else's,
44:13
learned, lock things listening.
44:16
So anything else you wanna kind of share, before we let you go on, also, I would like you
44:20
to let everyone know where they can get a hold of you if they're did in, having you do any
44:26
kind of work with them.
44:28
Sure.
44:29
Yeah, so my website is lindsaylappacket.com.
44:32
I'll apologize for the door knocking, as we discussed struggling to work from home.
44:38
My website is lindsaylafiget.com.
44:43
And, I'm actually just launching a new, program that includes a virtual workshop for leaders
44:50
and their teams as well as ongoing coaching.
44:52
And so you can check that out on my website.
44:55
And I also have, an eguide on my website.
44:58
If you scroll down to the bottom of the home page with tips on how to navigate difficult
45:03
conversations at work, which I think particularly pertinent in these difficult
45:07
times.
45:08
So go and check that out.
45:11
Okay.
45:12
So for everyone, the one tip that I'm taking a way is, to look at the right at the camera.
45:18
Or not?
45:18
That may or not.
45:22
If everybody's looking at me, they go, okay.
45:24
We know how she talks, but I just did just the little things.
45:27
Right?
45:27
The small things that you don't think about, I think, you know, all kidding aside.
45:31
Is just to think about how could I clarify, and I'm an extrovert.
45:37
So I sometimes don't think about the introverts and maybe don't think of the people that aren't
45:41
gonna share and how could I I engage people like that even more in my conversations you
45:48
know, to think about them and and to think what might somebody different from me, what might
45:52
they need to be able to verbalize or even share in a different way.
45:58
Naturally as an extra word, I just expect it's gonna come flying out of everybody, and we know
46:02
that that's really not the case.
46:04
And sometimes it's not the thing to be like that, but, to really think about how different
46:08
people communicate and what they might need different from me as, the way I communicate.
46:13
So, again, Lindsay, thanks a lot for your time and for everyone for tuning in.
46:18
As you know, I'm a mental health and wellness expert.
46:20
I do speak and training and consulting.
46:23
You can reach me at Roxanne.
46:26
Take care.
46:28
Thanks for tuning to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive
46:33
healthy change.
46:34
Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
46:41
rocksandurhaj.com/blueprint.
46:43
We'll see next time on authentic living with Roxanne.