Latest / Incredible Mind / Neuroarchitecture: Vasiliki Meletaki
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- speaker-0: you speaker-1: You were made for creativity, learning, problem solving, and of course, action. On the Incredible Mind podcast, you'll hear from neuroscientists, psychologists, doctors, artists, and others, whose work expands our understanding of how the brain works, where things can go wrong, and what simple everyday steps you can take to make the most of the unique intelligence you were born with. The Incredible Mind I'm talking about is yours. Today we're exploring the neuroscience of architecture and outdoor space with postdoc researcher Vasiliki Militaki of the Center for Neuroaesthetics at the University of Pennsylvania. This conversation will change how you think about the space around you, whether inside, outside, in your home, personal space, or in public spaces. There's deep creativity in the design of the space around us. And Vasiliki also talks about the neurological and psychological benefits of being outside. This episode closes out season one of the Incredible Mind Podcast. I'll be back on October 15th with brand new content about knowledge, questions, learning, lots of exciting stuff that I can't wait to share with you. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to this podcast and share it with friends and family. Let's get started. Welcome everyone. To Incredible Mind Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Cross Smith. Today we are speaking once again with Vasiliki Militaki. Vasiliki is a postdoc researcher at the Penn Center for Neuroaesthetics at the University of Pennsylvania. If you heard episode three, where we introduced the concept of neuroaesthetics, you might recall that Vasiliki talked a little bit about the neuroaesthetics of architecture and nature. But we have her back here today to have a full conversation on this topic, which I'm really looking forward to because their research has been fascinating. So welcome, Basiliki. speaker-0: Thank you for having me. speaker-1: So my first question for you, Vasiliki, whether we're talking about nature or architecture, is how do our brains process the space we are in? Whether I suppose whether we are outside or inside. speaker-0: Yes, how do we process space? One of models, one of the frameworks that we have, how we approach not only the space but aesthetic experience in general, is the aesthetic triad that we have developed in the lab. speaker-1: Aesthetic triad. Yes. Please, please re explain it to us because it it'll take takes time to get familiar with this concept, but it's very cool. speaker-0: Yes, we think that we process aesthetic experiences, including architecture experience, in three different ways. One is the sensory model processing. For this one, we need to keep in mind that architecture is unique in the space in general, in the way that we are in it and the space is around us. While in other study experiences, we usually see something by an architecture we inhabited. So we're kind of part of it. So in the sensory motor processing, it's all about spatial processing, navigation. It's about our body in the space, proprioception, so our body in relation to other bodies in relation to the space, how we move. The vestibular. system as well, which is our inner balance, inner ear, for example, and the vestibular system we have in the brain, how we keep our balance and we move in the space. So for example, when we have, we have stereotypes spiraling, or if things are more straight, all of these might throw us off balance. speaker-1: Absolutely. It makes me think of those IMAX theaters that I go in and it's so steep. I feel off kilter. I feel nervous. speaker-0: Yes, yes, it makes sense. The second is about the emotion and evaluation. So how does the space makes us feel? And this can be if we want to approach or avoid the space, entering the space, which is pretty basic concept in human experience, in human behavior. For example, there is this idea that Many straight lines and corners I can feel more threatening while curvature makes us feel calmer. So there is some evidence around this. speaker-1: Hold on a minute. So if it's straight and cornered, it feels more threatening. Again. speaker-0: Sometimes. mean, apartments and houses in the world are with corners. I mean, we're all in boxes because it's kind of hard to not be. ⁓ speaker-1: We can't all live in a sphere or a yurt or something circulous. speaker-0: Yes, yes. And it's very difficult for furniture in that, but you can think of spaces with peaks, for example. Usually, they feel more threatening or like they're angry in a way or make us angry. want the curve feels calmer for some people. speaker-1: It does. You're right. When I have been in some more curved spaces, there is something softer is the I guess the most simple way to describe it. speaker-0: Soft, yes, that's a very good description. And then we have the knowledge and meaning, which is more related to our personal experiences, whatever expertise we might have, and familiarity we might have with this space or other spaces. For example, if you have a building that you really like, or your childhood home, you have different memories attached to it, good or bad. And... you won't feel the same as if you enter this space as I would feel if I enter this space. speaker-1: Absolutely. So there's the that personal experience that you bring to any space and how familiar or not you are with it. Also, you said knowledge. So is that how much you know about this type of space or where you are? Where does the knowledge come in in in the speaker-0: The knowledge, for example, architects and designers see, feel and approach buildings in different ways than non-architects and non-experts. The same civil engineer would be walking around the neighborhood. They see things that probably we don't. And also our culture, what we are more familiarized with when we see buildings or if we go to a religious space. speaker-1: I speaker-0: Is it, we religious? Is this space for our religion or a different one? So all this has meaning behind and it comes with knowledge that we have from this space or from related spaces and they can affect the way we approach it. speaker-1: Yes. Is the space familiar to us culturally even? It reminds me years ago I was in Poland and I landed in Warsaw and I was going to Krakow Krakova and on the train I saw all these Soviet buildings and no one needed to tell me they were Soviet because they were so blocky. Talk about lines then right and angles. Ugly, gray, they just looked poured from concrete to serve a function, and its ugliness was its aesthetic. And then coming into Krakova, where they had maintained the older architecture of Poland. For whatever reason, it was spared and it felt so completely different. It had just very beautiful almost. lacy designs on the buildings and it had this beautiful square that you just sort of fell into as you entered the space and it was jarring to go from this Soviet architecture to this more traditional, I don't know if it was medieval or or what, architecture in one day. speaker-0: Yes, and there's different meaning behind its buildings, different reasons, the function as you mentioned. And this has been in general the history of architecture, moving from ornaments and such detail to more focus on the function and brutalism, for example, and then trying a little bit to go back to some beauty. At least for people that, I mean, I don't like brutalism. Some people have very strong opinions on it. I'm not a fan. But our building, the one you came for the first podcast, is famous brutalist building. speaker-1: And for you, as a person who was born and grew up in Greece, thinking about your Greek heritage and the incredible architecture that has come from very long time ago in Greece, but even places like Santorini, everyone's heard of the amazing buildings there, it makes perfect sense that brutalism would not be your favorite thing. So a little side question for you is how has that heritage that you bring? impacted your view of architecture in, say, London where you were, Philadelphia. How does your personal experience impact your view of space? speaker-0: In different ways. So in Greece, you can find lots of different styles. But one of the things that I miss, for example, is the balcony and the blinds. Because in Greece, we have a lot of light all the time, lots of sun. So we have balconies almost every apartment building has balconies. We do not have suburban houses, very, very many, at least in big cities, least not in Athens. It's not very common to have a yard where grew up, but it's common to have a balcony. So when I moved to London, I really missed a balcony. I also miss blinds so I can cut off the sun in the summer when we want to sleep. So there's some differences like this. And then I've also lived in South France and in Paris. So in different places, I appreciate different qualities. For example, when I was in Marseille, I could have a small architecture, but also I had a tiny balcony and I was very happy about it. And I find Philadelphia so unique. It's probably the only place I've lived that has so many unique buildings and so different one next to the other. It's incredible. ⁓ speaker-1: Juxtaposition of this old this was where Ben Franklin did such and such and then there's this big building right next to it. Yeah. speaker-0: Yes, it's beautiful and you can find this in almost every area around Centre City. Even in suburbs closer to the city you still find amazing and unique architecture and I really like that. speaker-1: I love it too. I live in the inner suburbs, right outside of Philly. And just up the street from me is a bar restaurant type of place. And it always stood out to me. It's on the corner of a major branch off between two streets. And then I looked it up and it has been an inn and tavern for hundreds of years. And the British and the revolutionary soldiers were fighting, duking it out in. The Philadelphia area. This is one of the areas where they fought quite a bit. And whoever won got to go to the tavern. So they were f kind of fighting back and forth, not just for freedom or for ownership of the colony. They were also fighting for access to this building. And that building remains. It stands out. And I love that that there's this old juxtaposed with the new. speaker-0: Hahaha! Yes. speaker-1: It's cool. Yeah. Not every part of this country is like that. One of my friends visited Philly from Tampa and she just loved all the architecture here because things there tend to just be strip malls and there's some cool buildings, but it's all new. And we maintain some of the old, yet we also have some of the new. speaker-0: And the other thing that is unique is how you can walk around. This is another thing that I was very used to. You can just walk everywhere. You have squares. You can just go outside, for example, many places in Europe. Here in Philly, you can still find some places like this, some areas where you can do this, which is rare in other places. in the States and it's something that I really appreciate how it's workable and welcome to pedestrians. speaker-1: Another plug for Philly. Okay. Promise not to do it every episode, but can't help myself. So you've g done a great job of explaining the aesthetic triad. And let me just name it back to you so that I know I have it right. So there's the sensory motor system. In this case, applying the triad to architecture and nature involves your physical location and position in the spaces. This is embodied. It's not digital, right? This is in real life. whether it's balance, position, navigation, then we have the knowledge and meaning. So your personal experience that you're bringing into this space and also whatever knowledge you may have of it. And then finally emotional and what evaluation? Is that what it is? Is that sort of a j you're judging if you like the space or not? What what does that part mean? speaker-0: Yes, it's the very like, do you like the space? Do you find it beautiful? Do you want to enter? Do you want to explore the space? Do you want to leave immediately? How does the space make you feel? speaker-1: With wanting to enter versus wanting to leave. In addition to curved and boxy, linear, what are other things that for the most part people like or dislike about a space? speaker-0: Another common feature we've noticed is the ceiling height. For example, how enclosed or open a space feels. The more low the ceiling is, the more we feel the space is enclosed. And the more open it is, the higher the ceiling is. For example, think of a church or a Victorian building that has high ceilings. It feels larger. while you enter like a tiny room and you make yourself small sometimes. speaker-1: Enclosed is it that we feel trapped in a smaller space and when it's open, it's not like I can go jump and touch the top of a church ceiling, but I do feel more like I have more freedom or something. speaker-0: It depends on the function. It's not necessarily bad. It does depend on the function, but we do approach the space differently depending on the ceiling height. And in the lab, we have developed three concepts that really seem to help us capture most of the aesthetic experience. Coherence, fascination and hominess. speaker-1: Okay, coherence, fascination and hominess. Like homey, feeling homey. Okay. Okay. speaker-0: Yes, coherence is how well-ordered a space feels to us. The more structured fascination is about visual richness, how much visual information there is in the space. And hominess is how homey, how cozy, how calm we might feel in a space. speaker-1: ⁓ so I almost see those as three different levers that go up and down. And I'm sure it's a little rare to find all three for any space. speaker-0: They're not inherently good or bad. And you don't want all three high up either yourself. Like we don't want all three all the time in a day. And we don't want all spaces in the same way. So for example, you would want your bedroom. You don't want it to be high in fascination. You want to go sleep. Not really. speaker-1: Okay. speaker-0: Yes, you want it to be homier. Maybe you want your office to be coherent, maybe not. Or the kitchen, you want to know where things are. And the same is for different spaces. So a hospital or an airport hallway needs to be coherent so it's orderly and you know where to go. speaker-1: Yes, in an airport hallway it really helps if it's coherent. If you feel like you're in a rabbit warren, like a JFK style. speaker-0: But a religious space or a commercial space may be higher in fascination. They can do it. It's okay. It really depends on what you want to achieve. And even in the same day, you need different things. And we need to some more work on this, but we do have preliminary evidence that people, even on the spectrum of neurodivergence, might prefer different elements. So for example, fascination can be overwhelming to some people. You might want less stimulation to calm down. speaker-1: Yes. I almost want to to explore each of those concepts a little a little bit more. One of the pieces of architecture that I find impacts me the most when I'm in it or on it, but actually I'm usually on the move on a bridge. There is a bridge, the Ben Franklin Bridge, where you leave Philadelphia and cross into New Jersey. And I love that bridge. I think it has coherence. It's very structured, but the f the level of fascination of the design and the bigness of it makes me feel I'm small, but I don't care. There's a sense of awe with the construction of this bridge. Definitely doesn't feel homey unless I'm coming back over and I feel like I'm coming home. That's but that doesn't r that's not really the same thing, right? Bridges are an example of architecture that you can see the levers kind of going up up and down. Do you have another piece of architecture, whether it's inside space or outdoor space, where you can almost see the levers of coherence, fascination, and hominess? speaker-0: It really depends on the space. We did some work on paraphilic spaces. speaker-1: Biophilic. Yes. Yes, I do want to talk about biophilic. Yes. speaker-0: nature-inspired design and we did this study at Penn where we designed one of the testing rooms in our building using bifidic elements. speaker-1: A testing room. A lab where you go to get your lab work done? speaker-0: Testing room like psychology testing room. basically a bedroom where it's just walls, a desk, computer, and we put people in and do experiments. Okay, gotcha. But behavioral or physiological experience, we don't do blood work yet. So we have these spaces for our psychology experiments and we had one room that was the basic room that did not have any specific design features and another one that we... designed using Bephilic Elements. ⁓ The mouse wall that I have in my office? speaker-1: ⁓ okay, a moss wall. Yeah. speaker-0: And the most of all, we had plants, real plants. We did a bamboo structure for the ceiling to kind of diffuse the light, because the fused light is more natural than that. We had different elements like this that resemble natural elements. An interesting finding there was that people found it beautiful. They found it fascinating. But in terms of hominess, they did feel comfortable in there. but they did miss a personalness, like it wasn't their design, so they felt that it missed a personal touch. speaker-1: ⁓ okay. speaker-0: It makes sense. It makes when you create a beautiful space and everybody loved it, but in terms of free responses and what we heard from people, and we did the same study both in the actual space and in virtual reality, people would say this looks nice. It looks probably like a therapist's office. It's maybe a waiting room. I could work there or I would like my space to be there, but it was a beautiful space that did not have any... personal belonging. You could not know if it belonged to somebody. yeah, no, the space worked pretty well. Yeah, space worked pretty well for whatever we wanted. But to your point how we might need different elements in different spaces. speaker-1: You can't have it all, right? Thank you for that explanation. I appreciate it. Let's move over to nature and the concept of biophilia. This was a new word to me. Can you define biophilia for us? speaker-0: Biophilia is this idea that we humans have a natural tendency to be close to nature and natural elements. It's an interesting concept. comes from evolution that you want to be close to nature. Nature is good for us. So nature is good for humans. Designers and architects have tried to take this concept into the built environment with biophilic design. So bringing natural elements in so we feel again close to nature. speaker-1: Most of us have some love for nature, of course, and love being in it. But if then there are times where nature is not our best friend and we'd rather run inside for protection. So what are the different cognitive, emotional aspects of just being outdoors in an outdoor space? Let's say there's no, it's hard to imagine, but there's no no buildings around and we're we're just in nature. What are some of the considerations there that impact us cognitively. speaker-0: Well, one of the issues with different theories about nature is that they don't really define nature because I agree with you that not all nature is good for us and nature can kill us. Yeah, it has. Yes. So sometimes we don't want to be close to nature. So it seems to be more of a tamed nature that is good for us. speaker-1: ⁓ fair. More like a park or a garden. Yeah. speaker-0: Yes, although this is still an open question, but it is something to keep in mind. And there is the stress reduction theory that being in nature reduces our psychological arousal, so it calms us down. And there is also the refuge prospect theory that is related to what you're saying, that we might like have refuge and have the prospect. So when you can look around, but there's also possibility for you to come back in whenever you need a refuge. speaker-1: So what is the prospect side? speaker-0: The view, being able to... so you can see what's around you, you can see even if there is any predator and you have the refuge. Now some of these theories, it's difficult to test them in a causal way, but we do try to have as... most empirical evidence as we can. And there are many things that happen at the same time when you're in nature and it really depends where you are because as you said, for example, Pennsylvania has beautiful parks, but also there are many ticks, many bugs. You don't like the bugs. There are bears. There are many things that we have to be careful. So even for me, enjoy the nature but at the same time, you can't completely let your guard down if you're in open nature. But what we do, for example, in the lab, we have a study going on where we focus more on tame nature. So we have a beautiful park with a pond in our campus. It's a beautiful space. It's a very beautiful natural space in West Philly. And what we do is that we take people there, they wear a biometric sensor and we record for 10 minutes. We let them sit in a bench there. We record their physiological activity, heart rate, heart rate variability, skin response, and they do not engage in any cognitive task. ask them to just be. Yes, the experimenter is with them, not next to them, but nearby so we can see if they have instructions not to get the phone out, but if they do, we are there. Yes, if needed. speaker-1: No phone, no nothing, just sit on the bench. Tapping them no speaker-0: They explore the environment, the soundscape, hearing the leaves, the birds, and then we take them to an urban corner, few minutes away, where there is no nature, and we collect the same responses. And we're interested in stress reduction, among others, but without necessarily a trigger. We don't increase the arousal, but we let them just be. So how much time... Do we need in nature to calm down? What are the elements we pay more attention to? We need different things in nature or we notice different things. So as we have found in previous studies, nature is not the most coherent and that makes sense. You don't expect nature to be coherent, but it can be fascinating and it can be homey. You can feel welcome in there. And these are important elements, including the soundscape. What do you hear? So. speaker-1: Or trailer trucks or do you hear b birds or the rustling of wings here? speaker-0: Yes, so this is something else that we are working on at the moment. How nature makes us feel physically and emotionally. speaker-1: Mm, and something that you said it is it's what you are able to pay attention to and why paying attention to sounds, sights, smells even, right? Smells of fresh air or even the dampness of leaves in the fall can have a reaction a bit nostalgia. ⁓ it's fall again into the summer. What I'm getting at is this comes back to something you said earlier about stress reduction in the outside space and just that concept that we will say I need some fresh air after a difficult meeting or a long class or what whatever was going on. Working hard. You need fresh air. You need to get outside. And it is more calming to go to a park, say, than going to a street corner. There's not cars zooming by you. That is not it's only mildly relieving, if not more aggravating. speaker-0: Yes, yeah. We're touching on the attention restoration theory, another theory about how nature can be good for us, which is exactly what you're saying, how when you do a specific task, you have your focus, your attention on a specific thing for a prolonged period of time, where if you go to a park for a break, there you don't have your focus in one thing, but your attention kind of spreads. around, you look around, the view, the trees, how they move. And this loose focus in a way can help restore your attention so you continue with your day. speaker-1: So right now, when I think of how this is applied, it makes me want to make a case for recess beyond elementary school. My kids in middle school and high school, they don't have recess outside time. And to me, that is not good for their attention and learning. They don't have no chance to restore themselves. What are other ways we can apply all these insights that your center has learned to make people have? better experience in the spaces that they are in, whether it's inside or outside. speaker-0: For outside, if they are able to, the best way is to go outside. For inside, we do a lot of work in virtual reality. VR? Yes. And it's used increasingly more and more in our healthcare settings as well. Think about patients, for example, who are not able to experience the outside. How do they feel in virtual reality? Can we put somebody in their favorite park in VR? Is it enough to help them feel better? Is it? It seems so, yes. We're still working. speaker-1: Wonderful because I've had family members in the hospital for months stuck to their bed. And it's just so grim to be in that setting. It is. ⁓ that's wonderful to know. Now I finally have a use for VR goggles, which I thought were quite useless to be honest, but to help patients get a vacation from their very boxy hospital room. speaker-0: Yes, it's not necessarily the same and we're still working on it but we have some preliminary evidence that the people seem to like it. It might not have a big effect in... cognitive performance, for example, but people seem to enjoy it even briefly. And the same goes for videos of nature. We have done other studies like this as well where we use videos of nature and people also like it and it can work. It can reduce your physiological arousal. People enjoy watching nature videos as well. So there are ways that we can help people inside. But it's just, we're still working, like different labs, piling evidence for this and it's not clear exactly how much time people need, what are the effects that seem to be the strongest or what do we need to have the strongest effects. Can it reduce pain or seems that yes. So we're working on all of these. These are all open questions. At the end of the day, we have nothing to lose and try. And if it works great, if it doesn't, it's okay. speaker-1: That's really wonderful. It's using this knowledge to really yeah improve the quality of life for people in all different situations. Is there anything else you'd like to say, Vasiliki, before we go? speaker-0: Yes. Research is still in development for neuroesthetics of architecture, neuroarchitecture and for how nature makes us feel. It's again kind of a word of caution that there is amazing work happening from labs all over the world on this topic. We do not have a cheat sheet yet of, ⁓ to this and you'll feel great. Because that's not how humans work. That's not how nature, almost nothing works. So we do not have this, but we can, you can try. And if there is a park nearby, for example, take a walk, it might help you. speaker-1: And just be aware of the space around you and start to notice how you feel. I mean, honestly, what I said earlier about the bridge, I only really thought about it after meeting you in the summer. And I just started being aware of wow, I love bridges. Who knew? Just being more more deliberative in speaker-0: Yes. Amazing! speaker-1: observation and not just observation of the space around you, but what's going on internally while we're in that space. And yes, just that awareness alone makes you understand yourself better. And it's neuro you called it neuroarchitecture, right? Essentially, that we'll understand that better as well. speaker-0: Yeah, it's not easy for everyone. If we're renting, we cannot make many changes in the place, or if we, for any reason, we're not able to go for a walk in nature. But it's important to be aware of how space makes us feel in the office, at home, try to see what we can do so we feel safe in the space, comfortable, and design a space that feels welcome. for us. speaker-1: Lighting alone. That could be its o its own topic, right? I just still remember when I worked in a center city office and the cubicle was all fluorescent lighting and it just always felt so grim in there. Yeah. Even if we were doing something fun, I wanted to get outside just to get away from that fluorescent light. Thank you so much, Vasiliki. This was really interesting. speaker-0: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. speaker-1: This episode is dedicated to the architects and designers who make our spaces coherent, fascinating, and homey. The Incredible Mind podcast was written, produced, and edited by me, Michelle Cross Smith. Peter Aronson is consulting producer. Angela Ferrero designed the cover art, and the music was created by Alex Grohl. For more information about Incredible Mind, check out Incredible-Mind.org. Thanks for listening.