Latest / Pharmacy Podcast Network / The Future of Pharmacy Where Next for the Profession | Love Your Pharmacist Awards presented by Clinigen

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The Future of Pharmacy Where Next for the Profession | Love Your Pharmacist Awards presented by Clinigen · Pharmacy Podcast Network

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: You are listening to the Global Network of Podcasters dedicated
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: to the pharmacy profession.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Pharmacy Podcast Network.
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: Welcome to the second episode of our special podcast series,
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: celebrating hospital pharmacy in partnership with Clinigin's Love Your Pharmacist Awards.
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: Today's episode is dedicated to World Pharmacist Day. World Pharmacist
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  Speaker 3: Day is an opportunity to recognize the expertise, dedication, and
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  Speaker 3: impact of pharmacists across healthcare. Every day, pharmacists help patients
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: navigate increasingly complex treatment journeys, support multidisciplinary healthcare teams, and
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: apply clinical expertise to improve outcomes. Today, we're joined by
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  Speaker 3: Karel Bauer, who began his career as a pharmacist and
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  Speaker 3: is now Managing Director for Clinigens Africa Region. and Nicolene Shoman,
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  Speaker 3: dispensary manager at Zoued Africans Hospital in South Africa.
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  Speaker 4: Hey, it's World Pharmacist Day, Pharmacy Podcast Network, and our
• 1:23
  Speaker 4: entire crew. Shout out to our producer, Brady, and Tyler,
• 1:27
  Speaker 4: and Andrea. I want to thank you for your work.
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  Speaker 4: And then I want to shout out to our pharmacist today,
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  Speaker 4: and what better way to do it In an international celebration,
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  Speaker 4: I would like to introduce my guests, Karel Bauer, who
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  Speaker 4: began his career as a pharmacist and is now managing
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  Speaker 4: director for Clinigens Africa region, and Nicolene Shoman, the dispensary
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  Speaker 4: manager at ZooEd Africans Hospital in South Africa. Karel, welcome
• 1:59
  Speaker 4: to the show.
• 2:01
  Speaker 5: Good morning, Todd.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you very much and happy World Pharmacist Day to
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: all the pharmacists out there. It's a real pleasure to
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  Speaker 1: join the podcast today and we look forward to contribute
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  Speaker 1: and give a little bit of insights from African perspective
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: on the effects of pharmacists in the pharmaceutical environment in
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  Speaker 1: Africa and across the rest of the globe.
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  Speaker 4: Thank you so much. And Over to Nikki, introduce yourself
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  Speaker 4: to the listeners and where are you in the world
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  Speaker 4: right now?
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  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for this opportunity.
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  Speaker 6: I'm Nikudine Skuman, as I'm called Nikki by a lot
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  Speaker 6: of people, and I work at South Africa Hospital Pharmacy
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  Speaker 6: in Pretoria. So I know Pretoria for you might not
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  Speaker 6: mean a lot, but it is one of the capital
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  Speaker 6: cities of South Africa. We're actually known as the administrative city.
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  Speaker 6: So we have a lot of the embassies from all
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  Speaker 6: over the world. So our union buildings.
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  Speaker 2: So the hospital that.
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  Speaker 6: I'm working at, South Afrikaans, has a very rich, long
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  Speaker 6: history in South Africa. It was established in 1904 already
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  Speaker 6: during the Anglo-Buddha war, which I'm sure you guys have
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  Speaker 6: learned about in history classes in school. And yeah, it's
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  Speaker 6: just been built up from there. It started with 2010.
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  Speaker 6: And we are now at almost 200 beds and really
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  Speaker 6: specializing in cardiology and your internal medication a lot. I'm
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  Speaker 6: the dispensary manager, but I actually started out as a
• 3:33
  Speaker 6: clinical pharmacist here at South Africa for the past five years.
• 3:37
  Speaker 6: And I've just moved into this new position recently.
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  Speaker 4: You are uncovering so much that people don't realize what
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: pharmacists actually do. And that brings me to really opening
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  Speaker 4: up this conversation as a celebration on World Pharmacists Day. Karel,
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  Speaker 4: people think, you know, you wear the white lab coat,
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  Speaker 4: you're standing behind the counter in the retail space, in
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  Speaker 4: the community space. What is one thing you wish more
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  Speaker 4: people understood about what pharmacists actually do?
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  Speaker 5: Great question.
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  Speaker 1: I think something, you know, often get asked by my
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  Speaker 1: friends and would like to explain that A pharmacist is
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  Speaker 1: not just an expert of medicines, but we are part
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  Speaker 1: of a whole patient journey, understanding what a patient needs,
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  Speaker 1: but also the whole development of a pharmaceutical molecule, clinical trials,
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: testing through the regulatory process, and then eventually to making
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: that product available for different supply, logistical routes and regulatory
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  Speaker 1: processes and navigating complex environments to essentially get a medicine
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  Speaker 1: to a patient.
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  Speaker 5: And supporting that patient throughout.
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  Speaker 1: His journey to ensure he gets the best possible treatment
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  Speaker 1: and get the best possible results for whatever disease he
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: needs to get treated. So I think it's understanding that
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  Speaker 1: whole context of the whole value chain of the pharmaceutical product,
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  Speaker 1: but also of the patient journey that a pharmacist is
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  Speaker 1: involved in all of the different steps that really makes
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  Speaker 1: a medicine come to life. And there's so many aspects
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  Speaker 1: to it that is really essential to essentially seeing a
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  Speaker 1: product on the shelves.
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  Speaker 5: At the end of the day.
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  Speaker 4: Nicky, you started off by kind of giving some background
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  Speaker 4: to what you're doing. And I want to open up
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  Speaker 4: kind of the same question. If you thought from an
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  Speaker 4: education perspective for the public, for our administration, for some
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  Speaker 4: of our managers, and even our primary care and physicians
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  Speaker 4: out there, what do you want them to know that
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  Speaker 4: what pharmacists are doing out there?
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  Speaker 6: Yeah, I think I can maybe touch on a couple
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  Speaker 6: of points that Coral said. Although we are in different industries,
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  Speaker 6: I think at the end of the day, it's about
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  Speaker 6: so much more than medicines for us. So for them,
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  Speaker 6: it's about getting the medicine. Yeah, but at the end
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  Speaker 6: of the day, they are looking... at the patient behind
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  Speaker 6: that medication. And that is what it's all about. And
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  Speaker 6: same here in the hospital setting from a hospital clinical
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  Speaker 6: pharmacy side, we do so much more than just pick
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  Speaker 6: medication from the shelf or, you know, count out the tablets.
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  Speaker 6: We are actively involved in looking at the prescriptions, interpreting them,
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  Speaker 6: questioning the dosing, looking at the appropriateness and the indication
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  Speaker 6: and really considering, you know, the patient's individuality, their weight,
• 6:25
  Speaker 6: their renal function, their liver function, but that is only
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  Speaker 6: one small aspect of it. So we also need medication
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  Speaker 6: in order to serve our patients. So there comes in
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  Speaker 6: stock management, getting stock into the pharmacies, getting it into
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  Speaker 6: the front shop for our chronic patients or outside patients
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  Speaker 6: to buy, getting medication to the wards, to the theatres
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  Speaker 6: so that surgical procedures can happen, getting it into the
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  Speaker 6: emergency charlies if there's emergencies in the units, So we
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  Speaker 6: really do so much more in the background. We are
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  Speaker 6: involved with the TPN ordering, with acquiring medication access like
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  Speaker 6: Section 21s that Coral knows really well. Getting that access
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  Speaker 6: to our patients and their logistics and the administration component,
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  Speaker 6: it's all dependent.
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  Speaker 2: On us in the pharmacy to do that.
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  Speaker 6: And I think at the end of the day, the
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  Speaker 6: patient just sees the medication or they just see it
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  Speaker 6: being administered, but they don't really know the big involvement
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  Speaker 6: that the pharmacist play in making sure it's safe, that
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  Speaker 6: it's there in the first place, and that it's really
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  Speaker 6: optimal for this individual patient themselves.
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  Speaker 4: I love that. So, Karel, imagine you are a pharmacy student,
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: you go back to university, and you know all of
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  Speaker 4: the opportunities of what's happening today, pharmacogenomics, digging into the
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  Speaker 4: DNA of a patient and knowing how a medication might
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  Speaker 4: affect me versus how it affects you, and clinical trials
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  Speaker 4: and medical science liaisons that work with the pharmaceutical manufacturers.
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  Speaker 4: What would you do or would you join a different
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  Speaker 4: sector or what do you think of where we're at
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  Speaker 4: today and from your eyes as a student?
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  Speaker 1: I think, like you correctly state, the industry has evolved
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  Speaker 1: so much over the past several years. The development of
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: drugs and the availability of medicines has really evolved. And
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: then the influence of pharmacogenomics, personal medicine, but also AI,
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  Speaker 1: as we see now, and how data really change how
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: a pharmacist can interpret data.
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  Speaker 5: There's so many aspects, I think, that you would need
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  Speaker 5: to consider. And it's really.
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  Speaker 1: Exciting being in this field and being in this environment
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  Speaker 1: and getting to see this major change and leaps and
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  Speaker 1: bounds that the and that the medical industry and the
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  Speaker 1: healthcare industry is taking over a short period of time.
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  Speaker 5: So from my perspective.
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  Speaker 1: There's a lot of different aspects that I would have
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: focused on and I would think pharmacy schools would need
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  Speaker 1: to develop future pharmacists to be future-proof and that there's understanding,
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  Speaker 1: interpreting AI data, because we know that's going to play
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  Speaker 1: a large part, but the pharmacist is going to be
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  Speaker 1: so essential in having the guardrails of that data, making
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  Speaker 1: sure that you have the personal interaction to treat a
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  Speaker 1: patient with the correct medicine, understanding, you know, what the
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  Speaker 1: human factor behind that is, but also developing in all
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  Speaker 1: of the different sectors, you know, from developing drugs, clinical
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  Speaker 1: trial space, and then, you know, how.
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  Speaker 5: That evolve through quality aspects of a medicine.
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  Speaker 1: Pharmacovigilance we see is really becoming a major part of
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  Speaker 1: a medicine, understanding what impact the medicine could have after
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  Speaker 1: it is on the market and, you know, how do
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  Speaker 1: you continue to develop and work on the safety, efficacy
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  Speaker 1: and quality of a product is where pharmacy is going
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  Speaker 1: to be essential in the future of a product. And then,
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  Speaker 1: getting the specific dosing for a patient and understanding how
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  Speaker 1: that patient will interact and how the genetics of the
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  Speaker 1: patient will interact.
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  Speaker 5: It's going to become more and more relevant.
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  Speaker 1: So we've seen a large shift already with pharmacists becoming
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  Speaker 1: a leading part of a multidisciplinary team, implementing antibiotic stewardship.
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  Speaker 1: And I think that's going to continue to evolve in
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  Speaker 1: all different sectors as we go into the future of pharmacists.
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  Speaker 1: So it's going to be really exciting. And there's so
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  Speaker 1: many aspects to focus on. that I think you can
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  Speaker 1: really niche yourself and brand yourself into a different sector
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  Speaker 1: and become a leading expert as we evolve in the
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  Speaker 1: pharmaceutical industry.
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  Speaker 4: I meet with pharmacy students a couple times per year,
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  Speaker 4: and I look at their curriculum, epidemiology and biology and chemistry,
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  Speaker 4: and it makes my head hurt. And they're so packed
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  Speaker 4: with information. These young pharmacists, are so intelligent and they
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  Speaker 4: just know so much. Nikki, when I think of all
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  Speaker 4: of the qualifications and how university prepares our future pharmacists,
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  Speaker 4: it's mind-blowing of what you have to know and what
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  Speaker 4: you have to keep up with. And it saves people's lives.
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  Speaker 4: Pharmacists are almost like these little investigators that are advocating
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  Speaker 4: for the patients and keeping them safe. You're the safety expert.
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  Speaker 4: And you're so brilliantly prepared for what's to come from
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  Speaker 4: an education perspective. But what do you think pharmacists of
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  Speaker 4: today entering any sector of pharmacy, what aren't they prepared for?
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  Speaker 2: Sure.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a very difficult question actually to answer. I
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  Speaker 6: was in school about 12 years ago when I graduated.
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  Speaker 6: But then during my studies, my bachelor's degree, we were
• 11:50
  Speaker 6: very focused on pharmacology. So I came out of school,
• 11:54
  Speaker 6: you know, really knowing pharmacology off by heart. I knew
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  Speaker 6: every single active ingredient. I knew the mechanism of action.
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  Speaker 2: I knew the.
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  Speaker 6: Indication and way to position the drug.
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  Speaker 2: And so I could do that.
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  Speaker 6: And I had some experience working in the pharmacy because
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  Speaker 6: we were made to work hours in a pharmacy.
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  Speaker 2: But when I actually got.
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  Speaker 6: Into real life, now being positioned in a pharmacy, I
• 12:16
  Speaker 6: had no idea about the business of making pharmacy work.
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  Speaker 6: And so I think that really is still today a
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  Speaker 6: bit of a shortcoming from universities because in South Africa,
• 12:27
  Speaker 6: you do your bachelor's degree, then you do an internship
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  Speaker 6: and a community service year. And then oftentimes you are
• 12:34
  Speaker 6: placed into a pharmacy as the only pharmacist, the responsible pharmacist,
• 12:38
  Speaker 6: and you're about 25 years old. And so now suddenly
• 12:42
  Speaker 6: you need to start running a business and you have
• 12:45
  Speaker 6: no experience, you have not been taught about gross profits
• 12:49
  Speaker 6: with stock evaluation, stock dice. You don't know anything about
• 12:53
  Speaker 6: people management. And now you have to lead a team
• 12:56
  Speaker 6: of people who's probably much older than you You know,
• 12:59
  Speaker 6: think about things like sick leave, like family responsibility, hours
• 13:03
  Speaker 6: and salaries. And so I think from a practical aspect,
• 13:07
  Speaker 6: that really is that business acumen is lacking in today's pharmacies.
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  Speaker 4: So I understand there are so many developments coming. There's
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: new medications coming to the market because the disease, like
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: oncology and the cancer world, we're starting to become very,
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: very specific about what medication is being applied. And therefore,
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: I think of all of the opportunities in becoming a
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: specialized pharmacist after the basics of your pharmacological education. However,
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: I'm wondering, during pharmacy school, what do you think if
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: we were to redesign some of the curriculum, let's say
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: for the next decade, knowing that the pharmaceutical industry is expanding?
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: What should they start teaching more of, Karel? What do
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: you think should be added?
• 14:02
  Speaker 5: Thank you, Todd.
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  Speaker 1: And looking at it, you're completely right that the industry
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  Speaker 1: is evolving at a rapid pace and there's so much
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: more that we can do. I think having the basic
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: knowledge that we are currently taught at pharmacy school, understanding pharmacology, pharmaceutics,
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: pharmacoeconomics is a really essential part. But then to specialize
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: in different areas is going to become more and more
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: relevant in and then focusing on different therapeutic areas is
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: a real involvement that I think could benefit pharmacists, you know,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: as they start to specialize in different areas where they
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: want to be. We see that, you know, whether it's
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: a retail pharmacy or whether it's a hospital pharmacy, but
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: then looking at the therapeutic areas, really understanding the difference of,
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: you know, oncology, genetics of a patient. And I would
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: go even further in saying that, you know, there's so
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: many different operational areas that a pharmacist participate in that
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: you can really gain additional experience in and be experts.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: And that is from the quality aspects to clinical trials
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: of medicine. So I would say looking at the development
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: plan of a pharmacy school, it's understanding, you know, how
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: a pharmacist would specialize in different areas as medical healthcare
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: professionals currently do.
• 15:19
  Speaker 5: And then also, you know, interpreting.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: Data and really knowing that how should you interpret that
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: data because it will be ever evolving and you would
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: see different data being presented to you. You know, in
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: South Africa, where we are situated, we often see that
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: navigating regulatory areas, you know, can be really complex and
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: understanding how that different areas can impact patient care is essential.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: So I mean, we're clinically specialized in looking for disease
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: that's not yet registered or really specialized therapeutic areas.
• 15:51
  Speaker 5: We look at, you know.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: How can we assist in that pharmacist in gaining the
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: necessary knowledge of understanding that medicine. And then once they required,
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: you know, having the necessary means to access that medicine. So,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: so many aspects of evolving in a pharmacist that can
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: become really essential as the industry and the profession grows
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: into the future.
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: Nikki, in the United States, we have our pharmacists, pharmacy students.
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: I meet with P3s, third-year students, WVU School of Pharmacy,
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: and just met with them two weeks ago. When they
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: hit that third year, they start thinking, do I want
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: to go into community? Do I want to focus on
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: senior care? Am I going to go into hospital system
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: and go into supporting the physicians at the bedside? Then
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: all of a sudden you get out of pharmacy school
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: and now you're seeing dermatology becoming huge and you're starting
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: to see pediatrics starting to become needed and we need pharmacists.
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: So from your perspective in school, we have the basis
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: of what it means to become a pharmacist. And that
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: education is amazing, but it's very intense. And then that pathway,
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: do I make a decision to spend two, three, and
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: four more years in a hospital system to become hospital
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: system pharmacist, or do I move to specialty? Do you
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: think we should expand education to start giving our new
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: pharmacists more information in a specialty area?
• 17:27
  Speaker 6: Yes. I definitely think that like Laurel, as I said,
• 17:30
  Speaker 6: and you said, it is the way that the world
• 17:33
  Speaker 6: is evolving to in this profession, especially And it is
• 17:36
  Speaker 6: also that the curriculum is already very packed and very full.
• 17:40
  Speaker 6: So it's almost difficult to think that they should now,
• 17:43
  Speaker 6: on top of just getting the basic education to become
• 17:46
  Speaker 6: a proper pharmacist or qualified pharmacist, now also learn specialities.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: So I think exposure.
• 17:54
  Speaker 6: During the curriculum is a good idea. Some exposure to
• 17:58
  Speaker 6: the different specialities, you know, whether it's infectious disease or
• 18:02
  Speaker 6: emergency medicines or oncology or you know, logistics and importing
• 18:08
  Speaker 6: can be of worth because then you already get a
• 18:10
  Speaker 6: feel for, you know, what can I do one day?
• 18:13
  Speaker 6: Where is my interest? You know, what do I think
• 18:16
  Speaker 6: I can really contribute to in which industry? But I
• 18:19
  Speaker 6: think subspecialising would be a postgraduate degree, you know, whether
• 18:25
  Speaker 6: it's a full degree, master's degree, or maybe just doing
• 18:29
  Speaker 6: extra additional qualifications, diplomas in special... specialities can also be
• 18:35
  Speaker 6: of benefit. I know, for example, with the medical practitioners,
• 18:41
  Speaker 6: they do a lot of extra diplomas, HIV, gastroenterology, whatever
• 18:45
  Speaker 6: they have an interest in. So I don't think it
• 18:47
  Speaker 6: necessarily has to be a specific degree, additional master's degree,
• 18:52
  Speaker 6: but there is room for it. And I think it
• 18:54
  Speaker 6: is a place where pharmacists can continue to be the
• 18:57
  Speaker 6: experts in medication and as Times are evolving and we
• 19:01
  Speaker 6: are getting more and more complex cases out there. There
• 19:05
  Speaker 6: really is a place that we can position ourselves to
• 19:08
  Speaker 6: be specialists in certain areas.
• 19:12
  Speaker 5: I agree. I like that.
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: And I think of the work across different healthcare systems,
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: not only the systems and the specialities, like you said,
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: like Children's Hospital, for example, and how pharmacists in the
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: children's space, in the pediatric space, that is so different
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: than caring for fully grown adults. And so, Karel, what
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: do the strongest healthcare systems understand about pharmacists that maybe
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: others don't?
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: I've been lucky enough to travel to different areas and
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: working in stronger and more regulated countries. But I think
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: essentially when you look at the healthcare sector, Most of
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: those industries really understand the value that the pharmacist can
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: add in being on the forefront of patient care, but
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: being part of a multidisciplinary team and then really valuing
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: a pharmacist's input, going to a pharmacist. asking them what
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: questions and what the value would be, but also then
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: understanding how that pharmacy will be an expert in the
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: whole pharmaceutical and the whole multidisciplinary team. So I think
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: it's really being the focus on having the pharmacist being
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: a valuable part of the team and really celebrating a
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: pharmacist and expertise.
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: That makes sense. I think of our hospital system pharmacists
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: and the health system itself becomes the reputation of many
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: of these systems become experts in specific things. And they're
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: attracting pharmacists not only from our country, but all over
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: the world as specialists. And the consultation with the world
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: in expansion of telehealth has been like, that pharmacist may
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: be across the world as a specialist in something that
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: is like cell and gene therapy or biosimilars or something
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: that is becoming much bigger in leverage of patient care. Nikki,
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: but what about a hospital perspective? Where do pharmacists make
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: the biggest difference that patients rarely see? Because our providers
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: to providers and our nurses and our pharmacists, they see
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: things differently than, than what our patients do.
• 21:43
  Speaker 6: Yeah. So I think the hospital pharmacist really makes a
• 21:46
  Speaker 6: difference in, in, you know, enforcing guidelines in doing dosing
• 21:50
  Speaker 6: recommendations and checking if you're with you. So South Africa
• 21:54
  Speaker 6: is a very clinically driven hospital. So we, actually evaluate
• 21:58
  Speaker 6: every single prescription in pharmacy with the latest guidelines.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: We use international guidelines.
• 22:04
  Speaker 6: To make sure our patient is receiving optimal dosing of
• 22:07
  Speaker 6: whatever medication is being prescribed. Because in South Africa, for example,
• 22:11
  Speaker 6: our medication is registered at Zafra. and it might have
• 22:16
  Speaker 6: been registered 10 or 20 years ago, and so the
• 22:18
  Speaker 6: package insert will say a certain dose. But as if
• 22:21
  Speaker 6: we think about antimicrobials, as resistance has evolved and gotten
• 22:25
  Speaker 6: worse and worse, those doses just actually go higher and higher,
• 22:29
  Speaker 6: and it's not necessarily reflecting in the South African guidelines.
• 22:33
  Speaker 6: So we are very focused on enforcing international dosing guidelines,
• 22:37
  Speaker 6: checking the patient's individual factors, you know, their weight, whether
• 22:41
  Speaker 6: they– It's a lipophilic agent that we need to consider
• 22:45
  Speaker 6: fat distribution of the medication or it's hydrophilic. Are we
• 22:48
  Speaker 6: not perhaps overdosing in this patient using a hydrophilic molecule?
• 22:53
  Speaker 6: We look at their renal function, you know, the type
• 22:55
  Speaker 6: of dialysis that they are receiving. Should we be recommending
• 22:58
  Speaker 6: some dosage adjustments? the liver function, the age. So we
• 23:03
  Speaker 6: really do a lot before the medication gets administered in hospital.
• 23:07
  Speaker 6: And I think at the end of the day, the
• 23:09
  Speaker 6: patient has no idea about the conversations going on with
• 23:12
  Speaker 6: the doctors and the up and down WhatsApps being sent
• 23:15
  Speaker 6: and recommendations being made.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: And the other.
• 23:18
  Speaker 6: Aspect where we really play a big role as well
• 23:21
  Speaker 6: is ensuring access. So a lot of the times things
• 23:24
  Speaker 6: do go out of stock. And we need to import
• 23:27
  Speaker 6: via Section 21 or you need to get an alternative recommendation. And,
• 23:32
  Speaker 6: you know, the patient just sees the medication being put up.
• 23:35
  Speaker 6: They don't see the whole pathway that was took to
• 23:37
  Speaker 6: get that medication to them in the first place. So
• 23:40
  Speaker 6: I think those are two areas where we really make
• 23:43
  Speaker 6: an incredible impact and a big contribution to the outcome
• 23:47
  Speaker 6: and safety of the patient and also perhaps cost. And
• 23:50
  Speaker 6: that's not often seen recognised.
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: I think of when you're doing things behind the scenes
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: that the patient doesn't understand, saving lives of catching dosing errors,
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: of being able to understand a drug-drug interaction and what
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: the long-term effect on someone's liver or cancer or something
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: that it's having from that pharmacological perspective. Goodness gracious, it
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: makes me take a breath. and be like, you're under
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: so much pressure. And I think, Karel, that pharmacists are
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: expected to do so much, and it's increasing, and the
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: expectations and the responsibility. So pharmacists are facing pressure. Health
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: systems are facing pressure. Are pharmacists being asked to do
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: more with less?
• 24:51
  Speaker 5: Absolutely.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: But I don't think it's just a pharmacist. I think
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: it's across the entire healthcare system. We do see that
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: as the requirements have evolved and as there's different aspects
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: that has really become part of a pharmacist's day-to-day operations,
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: there's so much more to consider and so much more
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: that a pharmacist needs to do not just purely spending
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: time with the patient and understanding that patient access, but
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: really navigating a complex patient journey and healthcare journey for
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: whether it's access of medicines and whether it's how to
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: really make sure that the patient gets the optimal medicine
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: at the optimal dose. We've seen in the past that
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: the pharmacist was always on the forefront of patient interactions
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: and patients would normally for pharmacists for minor or, you know,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: first point of consultations.
• 25:48
  Speaker 5: But that, you know, is swift over.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: The years to having more engagement directed to healthcare professionals.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: And a pharmacist playing a really important part in that
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: part of a patient journey. And I do think that
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: with healthcare professionals being resource constrained, but having certain data
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: and more relevant information available to them, a pharmacist can
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: get back to that part where they can potentially spend
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: more time with the patient to really understand their journey.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: and to make optimal recommendations to a patient. So within
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: a stressed healthcare environment and, you know, with a patient
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: and a pharmacist being stretched across different therapeutic areas, across
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: different sectors of understanding a patient journey and the medication impact,
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: it is becoming really irrelevant to evolve and to, you know,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: specialise in certain areas, but to use everything possible to
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: navigate that situation.
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah. It's a very good point. Nikki, I think you're
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: in consultation with a GP, you're talking with a family,
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: you're speaking with a nurse, you go back to labs
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: and collecting additional data. What do you think of the
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: health system in the full use of our pharmacist? What
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: would you say is an untapped potential? Like where Where
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: aren't they using pharmacists where they should be using pharmacists?
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 27:29
  Speaker 6: Well, I think there's definitely a lot of potential in
• 27:32
  Speaker 6: pharmacists that aren't being utilized.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: And I just think, but with.
• 27:36
  Speaker 6: Coral said, you know, it is different around the world
• 27:38
  Speaker 6: in a South African context. Having the patient, having the
• 27:42
  Speaker 6: pharmacist at the bedside is still a bit of a
• 27:45
  Speaker 6: funny concept in some places. So we're sitting with the
• 27:49
  Speaker 6: knowledge of the experience. We have all the access to
• 27:51
  Speaker 6: all of the guidelines and the dosing and all of that.
• 27:54
  Speaker 6: But we are often not really involved. We only see
• 27:57
  Speaker 6: the end and that's where we get involved. So we
• 28:00
  Speaker 6: end up with the prescription and then our insights start
• 28:03
  Speaker 6: to matter. Or we see a polypharmacy prescription and then
• 28:08
  Speaker 6: we start asking questions. But I think the potential that
• 28:11
  Speaker 6: we have is that we should actually be positioned from
• 28:14
  Speaker 6: the start. We should be involved from the get-go, you know,
• 28:17
  Speaker 6: at the patient's bedside, when the patient is admitted, when
• 28:20
  Speaker 6: the patient is worked up.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: And then already should our.
• 28:24
  Speaker 6: Recommendations and our knowledge and our expertise be taken into
• 28:27
  Speaker 6: consideration to plan the treatment plan for this patient. And,
• 28:31
  Speaker 6: you know, if it's a patient with a lot of
• 28:33
  Speaker 6: comorbidities or chronic medicine management problems, to be there from
• 28:37
  Speaker 6: the get-go, not to hopefully pick it up at the
• 28:40
  Speaker 6: end of the line.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: So we should be there.
• 28:43
  Speaker 6: In antimicrobial stewardship committees before every antimicrobial prescription is being
• 28:48
  Speaker 6: written to be consulted and to give those recommendations on dicing,
• 28:52
  Speaker 6: on appropriateness, indication, and all the other aspects as well.
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: Yes. So much potential. On World Pharmacist Day, we are celebrating.
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: I want to shout out once again to our pharmacists
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: out there that are working. Maybe you're tired. Maybe you're
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: feeling burnt out, but you know that there's more to
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: this and you have so much potential. Write that down.
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: Start a journal. Do something to bring things to the
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: surface and share with your colleagues. Share with other people
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: in your space or your specialty and And you'll be
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: surprised by pressing and gentle pressing of being able to
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: do other things with your pharmacist background. It's so important.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: This is our quick fire round. Karel, we're going to
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: start with you. And the statement is, the future of
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: pharmacy is, and you get one word. So the future
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: of pharmacy is?
• 29:55
  Speaker 5: Right. Right.
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: I like that one. That's a good answer.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: Okay. Next up, Nikki. Pharmacists should spend less time.
• 30:05
  Speaker 6: On manual systems that technology can.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: Run for us.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: Nice.
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: Great answer in the future of what's going to happen.
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: I mean, when we look ahead, if it's 10 years
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: from now and it's 2036, of how AI is going
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: to really get rid of a lot of that.
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: Tasks that a pharmacist should not be doing i love
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: that answer all right correll the profession needs to.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: Stop underestimating the value of pharmacist.
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: Excellent you get a prize good one all right last
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: one is for nikki the profession needs to start.
• 30:44
  Speaker 6: Owning our clinical worth and you know demand that seat
• 30:47
  Speaker 6: at the table that we've already.
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: Actually earned my gosh that was terrific You get a bonus.
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: I love that. I want to thank you, Nikki, for
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: being here with us. The work that you do is
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: so important. Correll, thank you. And a shout out to
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: Clinigen for supporting us on World Pharmacist Day with this
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: podcast and podcast series. If you missed part one, you'll
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: find it in the show notes, a link to part one.
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: It was a wonderful interview. Correll and Nikki, I want
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: to thank you on World Pharmacist Day and every day.
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: Make sure that you reach out to me. We'll do
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: other podcasts together. Thank you for being here and thank
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: you for sharing.
• 31:27
  Speaker 5: Thank you, Claudia.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: And once again, congratulations for all the world pharmacists out there.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: And we really hope that you are celebrated, not just
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: as unseen heroes, but being seen in the forefront of
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: the pharmaceutical and patient journey.
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: Nikki, thank you so much for being here. And once again,
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: thank you for your work in pharmacy care.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 31:51
  Speaker 6: Thank you so much for the opportunity and congratulations on
• 31:53
  Speaker 6: World Pharmacist Day. As fellow pharmacists, we really know what
• 31:58
  Speaker 6: every pharmacist is going through out there and the incredible
• 32:00
  Speaker 6: amount of work that they are putting in. So thank
• 32:03
  Speaker 6: you for every single pharmacist out there.
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: Thank you. Thank you. Hey, happy World Pharmacist Day. Once again,
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: stay tuned. Part three is coming soon here on the
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: Pharmacy Podcast Network.
• 32:21
  Speaker 6: Thank you.