Latest / ADHDtime On Air / Executive Functions in the Age of AI

Transcript

Executive Functions in the Age of AI · ADHDtime On Air

• Daniella Karidi, PhD: Hi, thank you so much for joining me for Michael Delman: Thank Daniella Karidi, PhD: ADHD Time on Air. today we're going to be talking about AI, about executive functions, and about ADHD. thank you so much for joining me today to speak with someone that has a ton of experience. I'm actually gonna do terrible introduced thing. So let's Michael introduce himself. Michael Delman: Hey, everybody. Great to be here with you, Daniela. So my name is Michael Delman. I am the CEO of Beyond Book Smart, which is the nation's largest executive function coaching company. We work one-to-one with kids, with adults. We have a school division called Brain Tracks. We train schools, teachers, et cetera. We have a corporate kind of vision, work smart coaching. I've been in education for forever, more years and probably I look old. So I've been doing education for, I guess, 33 years now. And I love talking about ADHD. I don't mind talking about my own ADHD. And I love having conversations with professionals like Daniela about this stuff. Excited to chat with you today. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Well, thank you so much for joining. And I want to start with a very important term that we use a lot and you specialize in and that is executive functions. Can you just tell my listeners what is executive functions? Michael Delman: Yeah, so executive function skills, these are the skills that allow you to achieve success with less stress. Kind of my short version of it. They reside in this part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex by and large. So if you had a hand model of the brain, this is your brain and this is your prefrontal cortex. They're here, underneath here is the part that gets in the way a lot, the amygdala or the limbic system, which kind of rattles us. What these skills are all about is the getting things done skills. How do you get organized? How do you get started on difficult things? How do you manage to choose your priorities well? And then how do you notice when you're off track? These are the skills that let you ultimately run your own podcast and other great adventures in life. They help you to execute. They're the functions that allow you to execute, not just for executives, but for everybody too. execute on their priorities. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Definition. As someone that specializes in memory, I use a lot the terms that relate to executive function because memory is a very important component, specifically working memory. But when we think about executive functions and teaching them, a lot of times I hear parents and teachers with the misconception that we can't teach people, we can't develop or get better at executive function skills. Michael Delman: Mm. Daniella Karidi, PhD: what are your thought about that misconception? Michael Delman: Yeah, it's 100 % understandable that people think that because I think people think that about almost everything. You definitely can. There's two ways that executive function skills get better. One, get older. So just stay alive and they'll get better. So we know from the research that executive function skills are improving generally through the mid to late 20s. But we've also found because of this neuroplasticity or the idea that the brain can keep teaching itself, that you can keep improving your skills throughout your life. Now there are going to be some things that get a little harder. You know, recalling certain words and all of that, we know that too. But there are very specific things we can do to improve our executive function skills. And so at a certain level, there's kind of a brain-based thing and I'll... briefly say, is the first is being able to regulate our emotions or I call it LL plus or minus DD to PFC to BG. So here's what that means. LL is leaving the limbic loop. So getting out of like high stress states, because in high stress states, we sometimes can barely remember, you know, what we're like our middle name. So getting out of the limbic state where we're calm enough to do our very best. The second thing, the plus or minus is the DD or double down on dopamine. So for any of us with ADHD, it's really, really critical that we feel some sense of conflict. I've got to find like why this matters and what can engage me enough. So your executive function skills will perform better when you're doing something where you feel engaged and motivated. And then As we get things then so that we can engage this prefrontal cortex, this thinking brain, You know, the working memory, as you mentioned, you know, impulse control and back and forth and like, what's the big picture? What's the supporting information? All that. We get better at all that, but if we do it really well, we get a bonus. And the bonus is when we can make things into habits. So, you know, if we can go beyond So when we practice something effectively, not just repeating it over and over, but in a way that works for us, then we can really find that, we're not having to like have so much cognitive load, we're not working quite so hard. And we're able to function actually really well and take advantage of some of the strengths that we might bring as people with ADHD. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I appreciate that. so a lot of time when people hear the term executive function and ADHD and all these letters and the you know and they they they kind of like they they they the gears in the in the light kind of effect. And and when I try to break it down to to the basics, like the most important thing, in my opinion, part of it is the whole self-regulation mechanism. That's what we're talking about is the big big idea of self-regulation. But I did hear some people out there think of an executive function more as just surviving like the skills we need for passing succeeding at school. Or can you give people some examples of where executive functions Michael Delman: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: come in life, not only in school? Like where are those things, where this self-regulation, no matter if you use that definition or other definitions, where does it come to light in everyday life? Michael Delman: Yeah. you know, it's literally everything. It's figuring out your vacation plans. It is cooking. While you've got several pots on the pot, one's boiling, you're supposed to be mixing this. You don't want to lose track of that one. So that is your working memory, kind of that juggling multiple things simultaneously and keeping that front and center. So you're a professional. You're supposed to be taking notes in a meeting so you don't forget something. How do you take notes and still listen to the person at the same time? That's a really hard skill. Again, that's work memory, but it's also organization. Do you know how to do some neat little abbreviations for yourself so you're not copiously trying to get every single thing down? It's hard to think of something that doesn't rely fundamentally on executive function skills. So this whole definition of kind of self-regulation. Self-regulation is a very broad, it can be very broad. It doesn't just have to mean emotional regulation and impulse control. Self-regulation is simply about self-management, orienting yourself toward a goal, doing the things you need to do to get there. So being really clear on this is what's most important right now. Anyone who's looked at their to-do list for a day and just gone, yeah, maybe tomorrow. And you know what my goal is today? It was to look at the list. I did that, now I'm done. So when we're kind of well regulated on that emotional front, then we can look at the list and say, you know, what's gonna really pack the most punch today? Should I really? Take the time to figure out how to build that espresso machine or make it work. My new espresso machine, I had this the other day. you know, or after an hour where you realize it might be a broken part, maybe put it aside and not just keep hammering it away and hammering away. Maybe instead I could focus on another task like this paper that I'm writing that I'm kind of wanting to avoid, but let's do it. I've avoided it, I've put it aside long enough. So mostly I think it's about how do you render day in a way that you get to the things that are most important to you. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Talking about running our days today, in our modern life, we now have a bunch of new technologies, AI, mostly, but even like small stuff like you know, note takers that are joined in our meetings that could help us with some of those multitasking that so tell me a bit about the big picture. How you see AI combining with executive functions and ADHD today. And then maybe when we're done going on today, let's talk about the future. Michael Delman: Yeah, you know, so I love, I'm a bit of a technology fan. I think that there's, you always have to take the concerns that may come with it, like being a bit addicted to it or letting it overdo too much of the thinking for you to the point where maybe you get a little lazy or you're on it like too much. But overall, think You know, a lot of these chat bots, these co-pilots, I use Claude a lot, a lot of people like chat, GBT, some people like others, but what they allow you to do, particularly if you have ADHD, it's almost like they were designed for people with ADHD because you can record yourself. You can do a verbal exchange back and forth, but you might want to do something where you just click, you record yourself talking about something for... minutes, three minutes, and you can let your divergent thinking go. Just let yourself go unfiltered. Hey, I'm really interested in and blah, blah, blah, blah, and you talk and you go, and suddenly you're high level on a big concept that you have. Then you're on a supporting detail or a story, and then you stop and say, can you summarize what I just said and organize it for me? What are my main points? You can say, know one of them is this and one of them is that, but then you literally can see your own thinking. It's an amazing thing. And it'll put it back to you in an outline format. you just show me my main thoughts. What are some of my supporting ideas? Where might I be missing something? And so it can function to allow you to go out here and then, oh, the way maybe a phenomenal human interviewer could, right, to then summarize and bring it back and say, that's really helpful, and then tie it maybe to the next thing. But what it can do that I don't think any human can do, it can also refer back to every conversation you've had with perfect accuracy. So it's got quite the long-term memory and the ability to pull it back just the way that you want it to. So I think between that, and then it's a non-judgmental thing. if you have ADHD and you have this rejection sensitivity dysphoria that comes with it and a sense of like, am I going for too long? Am I a bit much? Am I too much? AI never thinks you're too much. It'll probably compliment you because it's wired that way. Wow, thanks for sharing all of that, Michael. That was really lovely to hear. Would you like to hear it? So you can design it also to, you can calibrate it so that it does push back, which I have because I want that, need that, but it really is a phenomenal way to kind of improve the quality of your own thinking and to get the kind of pushback, but also the organization that you need. So I think that those are some of my favorite aspects of it for anyone who's got ADHD. Daniella Karidi, PhD: So yay, I think that that's really good uses that you have for for AI. as someone severely dyslectic, I just even like the idea that I can talk to it and it will write a nicer version without spelling mistakes. Suddenly my emails are less a detective interpretation game, but more just easier to understand. But I do see a lot of parents that come with s similar questions about will this reduce my kids' ability to develop some of these executive function skills? Because if we rely on an AI to summarize our idea or to take our notes for us or to maybe talk through a problem with us, are we now not developing these skills for our kids because they're automatically using these tools? Michael Delman: It's a really thoughtful question and I would never dismiss that out of hand. I think the things, so I'm an educator, so I think along these lines quite a bit, a former teacher, I was a school principal, I started a school, I really care about the quality of our kids' thinking. Are they reflective? they? able to connect things, connect ideas? Are they able to think with, know, innovatively and so forth? And I think we've always kind of worried when there's a new technology, right? There's always worry. Are we going to lose something? Like, what will we lose? And I do think that we lose some things and we may gain other things. Generally speaking, most of us not most of us, but most of us who are using AI a bit, we are starting to get pretty good bullshit detectors. You can tell something AI slop, right? But wait, here's the thing. That's how they talk now. That sounds like AI. And here's the thing. It's like when you, at some point you see through the advertising language and you're like, that's an ad. It's just, you What we need to teach our kids is more critical thinking skills so that if they do use these tools, they can look and say, that's not good enough. I prompted it. So some people will take the easy way out. And I think that this particular technology, it feels riskier to me too, because it does sound like a human being a lot. But I don't know, Daniela, I mean, it remains to be seen. I think the best educators that I know, they're using AI, but they're using it thoughtfully. So for example, that what they're doing is they're saying to the kids, you're gonna do some in-class essay writing and I'm gonna see that. Then you're gonna go home and you're gonna do an AI version of that. Like you're gonna send it through and keep prompting. You're gonna copy what you've got. You're gonna take a photo, copy and paste, whatever. And then you're going to go have AI analyze and give you feedback. And let's see what the feedback is. So then in class, you get to look at that feedback. so it becomes part of the feedback loop. I do think we can get a little dumber from all this. We could lose some real thinking skills. But I also don't think the genius going back in the bottle. I think everyone's going to be adopting it. And the people that adopt it well. are the ones who are gonna make good use of it. And most people use it for simple things. So I don't think we can fight it. I think we have to figure out how to use it effectively. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I I recall a lot conversations that happened historically around technologies that evolve. when there's this speech that one of my professors read at one of the classes, and it's you know, it's from the come when the radio came out and people were complaining that now people won't talk to each other anymore because they can sit and listen to the radio. But whenever I read it to people, they automatically think I'm talking about when it was when the internet came out, people thought we were talking about the internet. And then when phones came out, people were, you're talking about the phones. And now people assume that it's about AI. When it was written about the internet. I think we Michael Delman: Hmm. Daniella Karidi, PhD: struggle when new technologies come out because we we are sure they will change our world, because they do change our world. a hundred percent. The questions are, maybe different. How are they going to change the world and how are our children going to still live in that kind of a world? So if an executive functions development is going to look different, maybe, maybe with with AI we're going to be teaching our kids different decision making because maybe the decisions are not what am I going to eat for dinner? Maybe the decision is which ingredients do I put in my AI to Give me a recipe to cook for dinner. So the decisions are still there. They just might be coming in a different point and in a different way. Like you were saying, maybe we need to teach our kids how to write and ask the right questions, how to prompt AI. Because Michael Delman: That's it. That's it. Daniella Karidi, PhD: we can't assume they're gonna learn it by themselves. Michael Delman: No, and I think it is the right prompts, but it's also recognizing, you know, all the time I get answers, even from good models of AI, like paid models, where I think, is that really totally true? Are there exceptions to that? And there are two things you can do in that situation. Well, there are three. The first is you might miss it entirely and just not think to ask that, right? The second is you can respond by pushing back and saying, I feel like there's something else missing here. I think there's a more effective way to do this and I think it might involve this and this and you put that in. The third is even higher level, which is to program it to... to think better, where your own thinking is in your improving the model. So you go into your settings for the model. You create a style guide that's you. This is how I write. This is how I talk. I want you to sound mostly like me. And then you read what it does and you're not that part. You can just accept it. You can push back on the instance, or you could generalize and teach it how to do better. It's a collaborative thing. You and AI are teaming up. You're using it for what it's good at as a non-thinking being. It's not a thinking being. It's just predictive text. It's just going with a lot of information. Its predictions feel awfully like a real human talking to you, a brilliant one who knows a lot. But it's just doing predictions. And now you're telling it, when you predict, predict this way. So from an executive function perspective, you're using that whole metacognition, that self-awareness that says, OK, hold on. All right. You might use it like, like metacognition might be for those who may need an example. You go into a social situation where normally you struggle and you tell yourself ahead, okay, if I find myself starting to get anxious, I'm going to do this little self-regulation breathing, this five finger breathing, breathe in. and I'm going do that where nobody can see and I'll calm myself down. That's self-awareness. That's knowing what you know, knowing what you're good at, knowing what you're, you know, knowing yourself and knowing how you think and all that. But you're applying it now in the relationship with Claude or ChatGBT or Perplexity or Gemini. And you're saying to it, when we interact, I want it to be more like this. And so it's pretty high level of conversation and be happy with this inanimate object. But it can be pretty astounding. It's like you're having a conversation with yourself. It's just there's another self that has the ability to scrape the entire internet really quickly and never forget anything. Daniella Karidi, PhD: So what are the risks that we can think of as ADHDers Michael Delman: Mm-hmm. Daniella Karidi, PhD: for this current model, a current world of AI? Michael Delman: Well, probably two or three are really concerning. One is the one that you'd expect, is almost that dopamine-driven addictive response, right? You can get going and once you're in, it's like, what about this? What about that? When you watch a YouTube video or you're watching a Netflix show or something and then it ends and then next episode in five. four, three, two, and you're like, well, it already started, I can't turn it off now, right? These things are programmed to keep you addicted. Like they ask questions generally, or would you like to know more about blah, blah, blah, blah? And you're like, okay. And the reason they do that is because they make more money that way. You use more tokens, and at some point, you're gonna have to have a paid version or go on pause. Nobody wants that, so you have to start paying. or you're on a paid version, but you run out. Now you have to pay more and level up. So the first is managing it so that it's a contained thing. You don't let it control your time. You use it for what you want to use it for. It's just a tool. It's not a person. You don't have to feel sorry for taking a break. The second thing is a little more subtle, which is... It's kind of a relationship issue. It is programmed to flatter and we could get answers that aren't, we could think that we're doing a lot better than we are. And I think that this is where you need humans too. Most of us have people in our lives that will tell us exactly what they think. Sometimes that's too much. Sometimes it's easier to start with. having the privacy and safety and security of a conversation with a bot. But at some point you gotta get out in the real world. And I do worry, especially with young people. I have two daughters in their 20s. They're both, I think they're pretty well adjusted, but I could see times in their lives where they both like really into the social media stuff. And that's not the real world. People don't tell the truth there. People are sometimes too mean or too nice or too fake. So I think that we got to watch out for that with this technology. Yeah, I think the third one is what you alluded to earlier, the concern about skill, kind of erosion, atrophy, right? If you don't use it, you lose it. I love to play games, my silly New York Times wordle game or whatever. But I also like to challenge myself in ways because maybe it's what I do for a living, but I think it's just how I've always been. know, doing things that are hard is actually really just intrinsically valuable. Doing things that are easy, it's almost intrinsically dangerous. you know, whether that's what we eat, eating things that just always taste good, probably some risk. If it tastes bad, it's probably good for you. And doing things just because they feel good all the time, risky. We weaken our dopamine levels. We get that down regulation and then we just crave more excitement, more wins immediately. And I think that the skill deficit part, when it's too easy, it's a hint. So I think that... If you're finding that your interaction with AI is still pushing you a little bit, and it's making you think, and it's making you like work, you're probably using it well. If it's coming too easily, probably not. That's a philosophy. That's a little bit of the stoic in me. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I'm I don't know if you know about this, but there are some coaches that are adopting a AI version of themselves, like an AI coach or an AI therapist, or there's AI doctors out there. Like what are your thoughts about these professionals that are specifically in the world of ADHD and coaching? Like what are your thoughts about those AI versions? Michael Delman: I actually think it's mostly a lot of promise and some real peril, but I think the promise side is accessibility and affordability. I know that even with these amazing coaches that work for me and amazing coaches at work all over the place, most people can't really afford one-to-one coaching. It's just not that plausible. If they could have a much less expensive version, And by the way, I've been building this myself for parents. So I have a work model right now. I've tried it out and it come in alpha stage with a lot of people. And it seems to answer pretty much the way I would. I fed it in my book, your kid's going to be okay. I have fed it all sorts of our tools for 20 years of coaching. And I think it's really good. I'm still worried about the what if it goes off the rails piece, Safety, dangers, all that. I think that's getting more more safe. But I do, and I think it's nice to have human contact. I people need that. So, I mean, as an adjunct support, perfect. As a substitute, maybe a necessity, right? I mean, you know. I think maybe if it comes with the caveats of this will get you a little bit. If you're a hard worker, it's a DIY. It's little bit of a do-it-yourself kind of model. So if you can work with it well, and if the AI version of the codes comes with a teaching guide and it helps you learn how to use it effectively, I think that's the key. That's the best you can get of it. What do you think? What do you think? Daniella Karidi, PhD: I I am not yet I am not yet at the pro side for the AI coach. I am still in let's talk in a year, year and a half, maybe two. I think we're still too far and we we might be causing a little bit of damage, taking things out yet yet that are not fully cooked. I feel like it's not yet ready Michael Delman: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: for consumption. I I'm not saying that it might work for some people. I am not willing to do that yet. I do have a very, very good friend that she is a audiobook recorder, she does like live voiceovers, been doing that for the last 20 years. and there's the whole like, you know, her voice has been taken because it's years ago when she did these recordings, she did not they're not they're not hers anymore, she has no rights, so the her voice has been taken to be an AI version now. and there's a whole effect of that on the market. and it makes me think a lot about what of the all the information that we're now feeding these models, how will that affect future? On the other hand, Michael Delman: Yeah, I think it's legit. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I I I really understand the need to make this more mass accessible. So I can tell you that at the moment I'm not running to do it, not saying others shouldn't, and not saying that there isn't any future in it, but at the moment I'm not a buyer of. Michael Delman: Well, I love what you're saying and it will be a long time, but I don't know how long, but a lot of testing and practice before I would consider putting my name or the Beyond Booksmart brand to something like that. It's a huge risk. Again, the equity issue and getting 20 years worth of knowledge to people, it does strike me as a potentially really meaningful endeavor. Look, using an AI coach for your chess game, you know, so you can learn how to like move the pieces on a chessboard better. That's kind of a no brainer. That's pretty safe. It's very contained. Mental health issues, way bigger deal. Getting projects done somewhere in the middle. So, you know, I think it depends on the content. I mean, how high risk, you know, how risky Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yes. I Michael Delman: is the endeavor. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I will say that yesterday I tried to order a prescription refill at CVS and it was an automated AI th system and I didn't know if I wanted to kill myself or it. It was so frustrating because no no, obviously, Michael Delman: It don't kill yourself Daniella Karidi, PhD: but it was so frustrating the the the i it's a very very challenging phenomena because we are we're Michael Delman: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: We're rushing to to put these things out there where I'm not sure they're really ready yet. I also decided to just go to the pharmacy and the cashiers, I don't know if it happened to you yet, but they're changing the systems and the cashiers now have this login system. You have to put in your information to get your prescription, at least in California. the line was about forty-five minutes out the door because the the you know it's an It has challenges. So my fear is that we're running a bit ahead. and that is Michael Delman: Mmm. Daniella Karidi, PhD: that we are taking these technologies and we're putting a lot of trust in them, a lot of personal information in them, and and a lot of systems that are really critical for our health, mental and physical, and that they could kind of crash for a variety of reasons, user errors, but also programming errors, and also just capacity. So That is my biggest fear at the moment with AI. Michael Delman: I think it's funny, I don't know that we went into this knowing we'd go this deep down the rabbit hole, but I love it. And we knew it might go any which way. There's other issues too, right? There's social justice issues. There's where these Daniella Karidi, PhD: Right. Michael Delman: data centers get put in the poorest of places and data, environmental concerns and so forth. There's a lot. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yes. Michael Delman: And there is... We're in a period where a lot of the kinks are being worked out, but I think that the part that you said that gives me the most, like where I agree with you, I think there's the most reason for pause is we're running ahead of ourselves. It's a race. It is a race and everybody wants to win it. there aren't a lot of people willing to put any brakes on anything. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. Michael Delman: Make a mess and clean it up later. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. Michael Delman: There are some real messes and there are things that are, you know, where people have been given horrible, horrible, dangerous advice. so I... Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. I will say that I use AI on a daily basis because I am dyslectic and I use it to dictate stuff and have it edited for me. I try to reduce the decision making power on my AI, but I do use it as like I was writing blog ideas. So I kind of like, here are all my ideas and then organize them in categories and all that kind of thing. Of course, after writing t Michael Delman: Right. Daniella Karidi, PhD: twenty-something ideas, I wrote something about something totally different, not on a list of ideas, because A A D H D for the link. But yes, so just to make sure that it's clear to listeners, I do still use AI. I just wanna point like another aspect of the challenges, because we were talking about some of the challenges. I would want to say something you brought up before. I'm gonna bring us back to something you brought up your book before. and I love your book title. So I wanna say that I loved its positivity. Tell us a bit about your book. Michael Delman: Oh gosh, I wish I had a copy to hold up the cover. The number one thing that people, Daniella Karidi, PhD: And I don't have one here either for some reason, Michael Delman: they love about my book is the title. Your kid's gonna be okay. I don't know that you need to buy it just for the title. You could just write it down, but you know, it's an important, I think it's an important look and apparently some other people felt that way too at what it means to be the parent of really any kid because every kid is struggling with executive function issues, especially if they own a phone, a smartphone, but even when they're young and to understand what's kind of a normal course of development, normal trajectory of development, and then where things are harder. VHD obviously that puts you a couple few years back in some key capacities of restraints and so forth. But the book is really meant to show through case studies, a lot of tools at work. know, what if you do have time management issues and, and what if you do have difficulties with organization? What, can you actually do about it? And the other thing it's really focused on is kind of why we as parents have such a hard time not letting our kids learn. Like wanting to Daniella Karidi, PhD: no. Michael Delman: do the learning for them. wanting to save them from problems. the fundamentals of it is just, we're kind of wired for our kids' survival, like to help them survive, not to help them thrive. There's a strong protective instinct. And so we often kind of overdo for them or shield them from things and so forth. And it's not that you just need to let them go out and fail. It's you gotta let them go out and learn. and be that rock, like be really supportive in helping them think through for themselves as they build that self-awareness and that whole muscle of like... Oh, that's what happened. Oh, causes have effects. That's why that happened. What could I do about it? I don't know. No idea. Well, you know, it's maybe one idea. So kind of the way to coach your kid a little bit. And there's another section of the book that's all about stages of change and how people go through stages. And it's not kids, obviously. It's us. It's those stages of like. I can't do this, I won't do this, and you can't make me. And how we help them knock before entering. Would you be willing to chat about this? When would be a good time? Now or a little bit later? That kind of thing. The way that we can communicate so that our kids will be a little more receptive to the support and to the questions and to thinking it through. how to time it nicely so that it lands. I sound like a coach there, don't I? Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah, yeah. as someone that does a lot of life transitions, I I I very much like that perspective. I was just talking with someone else about the challenges of being a parent with ADHD to a kid with ADHD and how sometimes it's very hard to tell when to take remove those scaffolding, when to stop supporting Michael Delman: Mm. Daniella Karidi, PhD: them in the and sometimes it's a them problem, like when do we think they're ready. To do something independently. And sometimes it's the the the parent with ADHD is challenge because they are so used to doing something, it's hard for them to stop something they're they finally created a habit of doing. And the example the mom was saying is they they got so used to getting their bag ready for school and making their lunches that even when the kid was maybe able to do it, they weren't They didn't even think about stopping. It wasn't that they didn't want to stop. It wasn't like it was like they didn't even occur to them that they had the option of stopping to make lunches and preparing the the the bag for the next day. Michael Delman: Yeah, it does become a habit and habits are always hard to break where we kind of learn to wire ourselves. Like we're all really good at going like ABCDEFGHIJ, you know, we can all do that. But it's a lot harder to go like ZYXWVUT, right? I mean, that's harder because we haven't practiced it. We haven't practiced the opposite way. breaking habits and being open to the idea that the way The way we're doing it, wait, I don't have to do this, to your point. It just doesn't even occur. That's a great way to start your, could be your day, could be your week, could be every month or whatever, but like, hold on. Does this still make sense? I remember my daughter came home from school one day, she was in high school, and she said, dad, you know. I've got an hour of homework to do in every subject tonight. Plus I've got a major project and I can't even start this project and it's never going to end. It's going to keep staying like that and I'm never going to get this project done. I might not even start it. You know, and I was, I wanted to solve it for her. want to tell her exactly what to do. I knew the answer. I knew the answer. I was like, call on me, call on me. And I didn't do that. said, Which dad are you talking to? Are you talking to like dad like arm around you? Sounds tough kid, you know, let's talk. Or are you talking to the dad who's like an executive function coach? And she said, Alright, executive function coach dad, go. So I was like, alright, Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mm-hmm. Michael Delman: here you go sweetie. Question, how much are the homework assignments worth? She said two points each, this is for Spanish. She said two points. I said, how much is the project worth? She said 40 points. I said, okay. And you're spending an hour a night on the two point things and putting in zero minutes on the 40 point thing. What would happen if you spent only 30 minutes on the homework? How many points would you get a zero or? I'd probably lose like half a point. I said, well, so what are your thoughts after you say that out loud? yeah, it's obvious. mean, transfer my time over to this. And this is a very diligent kid who was willing to do the work, You know, so I didn't Daniella Karidi, PhD: Right. Michael Delman: have all those other barriers to help her overcome, but she was in a rut. She was in this like... I have to be perfect, you know, and I have to get my homework done and get it two out of two. And like two out of two, who cares? Lose half a point, Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. Michael Delman: round it up, it's the same thing anyway. So, you know, I think that these are the things as parents where it's very helpful for us to think, really, really, really think about it. Like what's the more important victory here? Is it the short term? win and check mark in the teacher's grade book? Or is it the, my gosh, I'm thinking about this better. Like that's the, right? Like that's what we want is, wow, Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. Michael Delman: I get it now. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yep. so because we're gonna run out of time, if my listeners can take one thing away from your book, because they didn't if they didn't have a chance to read it or if they Michael Delman: Hmm. Daniella Karidi, PhD: are just need a refresher, what would be that one thing you'd want them to take away? Michael Delman: go to Amazon and buy it. No, let's see. Is that too crass? Let's see. I Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mm. Michael Delman: think that the number one thing, and it's really, it's probably gonna be much more highlighted in the second edition, which I'm gonna redo for our 20th anniversary, is about mirror neurons. And I think just the idea that... our own state of mind in the way we're carrying ourselves is going to have a massive impact on the emotionality or the state of mind of our kids. And so when we say to our kids things like, you need to calm down, like what? Like we're not calm. They're picking up on that. They know that like our amygdala is like, we don't have to tell them we're anxious and upset and worried and terrified that they're going to end up failures. and homeless on the side of the street, they feel that. I think they're not, and likewise, when they're all revved up, my God, I'm freaking out, I'm gonna fail this test. Don't buy in, just hear it, see it, observe the chaos, manage the chaos, do not become part of the chaos. I think if we can do that, keep a little healthy separation between their emotion and our reaction like pause. And if we can keep a little bit of distance between our own initial reaction and then what we actually show them and tell them and present them, I think our kids will be a lot better off. They'll just, you know. Because parenting is like a super hard job. And to be a good Daniella Karidi, PhD: Hundred percent. Michael Delman: parent, we don't have to be geniuses or anything. And we don't have to be calm all the time. We don't have to solve their problems. We just have to know like, I'm probably not being effective right now. It's better for me to put myself in time out or walk away. And that would be my top takeaway. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Love it. I ask every guest that's if now that you know all this knowledge about parenting, about ADHD, about executive functions, what would you go back and tell young self? Michael Delman: wow. my young self like six-year-old Michael. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Whichever age you choose. Michael Delman: Oh, I'm going with six when I was called Motor Mouth. That was my nickname. Yeah, I would say I would tell my younger self that one. it's okay they hear a bit of a motormouth. Like, lean in. You you've got to gift a gab. And if they're calling you a motormouth, say, yeah, it's a little bit true. Because you can't deny it. And if you fight it or you get upset about it or, then you become an object of ridicule and you can be picked on and bullied. So that happens sometimes because I would get so upset, I get so mad. And then, you know, so I would say, Lean in, be yourself. And the second thing is, I'd probably say, also, here's a way to breathe better so that you can run off at the mouth if you want to. Sometimes maybe you don't want to. That's okay too. Daniella Karidi, PhD: What would you tell future self? Michael Delman: Future self Wow Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mm-hmm. What do you think future Michael needs to know? Michael Delman: Mmm. I don't even know how to process that. feel like, am I in prospective memory? Would I want to remember to tell my future self? I would tell my future self, Daniella, yeah, it's a journey. You don't ever have to arrive in some final perfect form. You're here to learn. And be... Be kind to yourself as you're going because, know, like, yeah, future self, you're, you don't have to have it all figured out. It's okay. It's still good. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. I appreciate that. Michael Delman: Thank you for asking. Daniella Karidi, PhD: can you tell the audience where they can find you? I will put links but also say it for the people that are listening. Michael Delman: Yeah. mean, the best place is to go to our website beyondbooksmart.com. So beyondbooksmart1word.com. I mean, we have a podcast. I'm restarting our new podcast, actually, Focus Forward, after a six-month hiatus. I'm really excited about that. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Congratulations. Michael Delman: But our website has lots of free stuff for people to be able to get what they need. We always appreciate that we can help people who might not be ready for or able to do our coaching. So, yeah, thanks. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Perfect. Thank you so much for being a guest today and talking with me about such an array of topics with from parenting to AI. It was a pleasure. and Michael Delman: Likewise. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I will see you, I'm sure, somewhere around in the AHD world soon. Michael Delman: Absolutely. Thank you so much. really appreciate it. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Thank you. Michael Delman: Okay, take care.