Latest / Loons: embrace, understand and ignore the internet with Carmen Vicente and Danielle Gibson / Loons: what is Hopium, Emma Grede ENDS personal brands (or does she?), will Pete Davidson bring down influencers once and for all, and more

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Loons: what is Hopium, Emma Grede ENDS personal brands (or does she?), will Pete Davidson bring down influencers once and for all, and more · Loons: embrace, understand and ignore the internet with Carmen Vicente and Danielle Gibson

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: So do you want to start and you'll say I'm Danielle.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Carmen.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Carmen and you're listening to Carmen.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Does it is it bad if I'm reading up anything that will happen?
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I if you read I'm Carmen.
• 0:16
  unknown: Okay.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: But otherwise, I think it's okay.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's okay.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 0:22
  unknown: Okay.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: Let's go for it.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, I'm Danielle.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Carmen.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: You're listening to Loons, a show by two old ladies trying to decide which parts of the modern internet to embrace, understand, or ignore.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: Can I just say you did a beautiful job with that?
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: I've only practiced four times in the last year.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: We just decided that that's gonna be the sort of tagline to the show.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: We've been through several iterations.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um we also, well, I just said there's two kinds of people who make podcasts in this world people who have it all figured out before they start, and people like us who book a book a studio and say, we're gonna figure it out as we go.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and just so yeah, this is not our home.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: This is not a personal spot.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: This is a studio.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: So if it looks like a generic podcast place, you're right, it is, but that's okay.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't like personally, I wouldn't have a bowl with balls on my bowl of balls, you know.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's a realtor would say, watch your tongue, because that's what's in my staged house.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: No, this isn't, you know, we're trying to be, we're trying to be a little real um while still main maintaining that, yeah, this is a show about the internet and what is real on the internet?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: Are the bowl of balls real anywhere else?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone's probably filming in a studio in some capacity, or they're filming in a place that they looks so anti-studio that it reeks of authenticity.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so we went the studio route.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it also will sound a lot better.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: Which does, I hear, is a good thing for a podcast.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: CAM, who are you?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: Who are you?
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us a little bit about who is Carm.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, ladies and gentlemen, she is a LinkedIn top voice.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: She is.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, thank you, Danielle, for that uh lead up.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: I so I just quit my job.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like I have to figure out how to talk about myself in a way that isn't just about um my job, but so I used to work full-time in tech um in as a social media strategist.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now I am not that, I guess.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, maybe I'm a I'm a I'm a what do you call it?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um thinking.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm uh you're a creator.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: A freelance, a freelance social media strategist.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I am a content creator.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't love that title, but you know, by by Taylor Lorenz's account, anybody who who makes content on the internet is an influencer.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe I'm an influencer.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone's an influencer.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: But who's getting influenced?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: These are the questions we're gonna dive into.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you just left your job.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're figuring things out as what you're doing as your own solo, solopreneur in your own journey.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: But you've been online for a long time, and you are, I don't think we can get away from the fact you are an inf you are an actual influencer.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: You are at this very moment blowing up on Instagram.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: A little bit.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you're going viral.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: Can you tell us what you're going viral for?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so yesterday I posted a video about uh personal brands.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I was trying to say, like, maybe my thesis was we all kind of have to approach a personal brand because we live in late-stage capitalism, in the grips of late-stage capitalism, where we have to negotiate our market value.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so I made a video about that, and I was sort of saying these are my thoughts on how to approach building a personal brand that doesn't feel really icky or like a violation of your self-respect.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of popping off, but I don't think it's popping off entirely because of what I said.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's because of the internet climate right now, with what Pete Pete Davidson was saying, what Emma Greed just said.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I feel like people are talking about personal brands.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: But also I'm like, should we go into this now or should you?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't even ask you about you.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: Hi.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Danielle.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I have been online for a very long time, as well for as long as the internet has existed.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: Not, I guess really, but for a long time.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I got my star on the internet in the Yahoo chat rooms of the early aughts, late 90s, uh, talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: That was where I was at in my early days on the internet.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I did sort of, I sort of have made my career on the internet in that I was a creator myself fresh out of college.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: I had a web series, quite seriously, uh, that I did with my best friend.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: That went pretty well.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: So we got a bunch of other opportunities through that.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: Then I went and worked on this show called HQ Trivia, which was a live mobile game show.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: It had a lot of um fun times in the press.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: It it was my favorite job ever.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: I will think of it very fondly.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: It did not have a happy ending.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you can watch the documentary about that.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: I won't get into it.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I've worked at, I've worked at apps, I worked at TikTok, I worked inside the beast at TikTok for, you know, almost five years, and I've seen it all.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to know what Emma Greed said because I am not following her.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I know that she's making waves.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so Emma Greed basically she made a video because this morning I was trying to figure out like what did Emma Greed say, because I think some of her stuff is being taken out of context.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: But she basically she made a video on her own social media accounts, and then the caption was something like, I'm gonna build build a personal brand, said no man ever.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so she was saying, and I I think I'm gonna do it j justice here, but she basically was like, I didn't set out to build a personal brand, I built a business, and then the personal brand followed.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so And the business she's talking about is skims or her own personal business?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good question.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think like she's had several that she's built, right?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm not I'm not full up to date on my Emma Gree.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: I know she is she is a woman to watch.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: I will say, as someone who's not fully, you know, bought in, I'm not listening to the podcast, I'm not following her.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: I know her only in sort of this part of this discourse.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I know her name, I know Skims.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: To me, she does read as new Cheryl Sandberg.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Is that interesting because I my my thoughts on Cheryl Sandberg have like changed after reading um Careless People, which I have not read.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I read three quarters of it and I couldn't couldn't get all the way through for some reasons.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I mean, I would say I don't put them totally in the same category, but I think that Emma Greed is like, and I say this with respect, not I don't say this as a jab, like a boss babe.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, she's a boss babe and she's she's doing her boss.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: We need new versions of boss babes every couple of years because, like you said, we are, we do live in capitalism.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, we do need these.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: Every once in a while, we have to remind people that well, no, there is no universal basic income.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: You do have to clock into a job.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: And if you are, maybe you can have a good attitude about it, unfortunately.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Universal basic boss babe.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, you're right, you're right.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm already nodding.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um maybe she's the new universal basic boss babe.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, okay, so but I think like it's interesting.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that Emma Greed knew when she made the video too that it would bother people.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, sure.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it it she it was like just the right amount of like ruffling feathers without being like, she didn't say anything outright like, you know, hateful or you know, she wasn't tearing people down, but I do think she she knew that people who watch her build personal brands and that they would have to then like you know reconsider what they what they're spending their time on.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: Do we dare?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: Do we dare say that it was rage bait or no?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good question.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that what it reminded me of, it's like the same thing that the iced coffee debate reminded me of, is that there are no more things on the internet.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: There are just reactions to things.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Wow and I I just think that this falls into that category.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: And and completely right, because we are reacting right now.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't even I haven't this is why are we in this studio?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: This is even perfect for this is the perfect encapsulation because I haven't seen the clip.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't know much about this person.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and yet here I am giving my reaction.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: So that is the internet in 2026.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: If we were to just stop the podcast right here.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's it.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: We're done.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: But so you did it, you did a video about personal brands.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: Not knowing not having seen that this is blowing up for Emma.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: I had heard about the Pete Davidson thing.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like I had seen, I'd heard the clip of him saying, like, it's so embarrassing when women are saying, like, come get ready with me or whatever.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, there's like this whole other body of of discourse around the fact that like it's very easy to denigrate the type of content that women make online, and the these are ways that women can sometimes find financial freedom, and people are quick to criticize those those avenues.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but so yeah, Pete Davidson is basically just saying, like, oh, it's so embarrassing that women are online doing nothing.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: He kept kept on saying, like, what he kept on saying, What the fuck are you doing?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, right.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: I did see this clip.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: I did see Pete Davidson, and I, of course, have seen many reactions to this.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, his his reaction to influencers was them, these are videos we've all seen that I think we all have our own opinions about.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: Which are the type of influencer, usually a gal, who is getting a matcha, getting a matcha, um, going to Pilates, wearing an aloe set.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there was a New York magazine article about this type of influencer.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: So he's not the first person to have super original.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: It and it, yeah, it's not a unique criticism.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna go ahead and also say, I don't know that it's a criticism that we need to get too mad about.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, quite quite honestly.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not really worried about Pete Davidson bringing down, you know, the economy of influencers with this take.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I'm not worried about Pete Davidson at all.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think about Pete Davidson.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, not much.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: Not much.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm not like in no part of his response was I like, did I have anger in my like I wasn't like, oh And I'm not saying this is shit on Pete Davidson either.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: I also my take about this is like I actually kind of appreciate that there is a celebrity who's just willing to be like, actually, I think this is fucking annoying.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's okay.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like I like I said, he's not actually gonna come for their bag.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing he says is gonna.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, he's only helped them.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: Because now they everyone gets to make a sort of semi-sanctimonious video about how he's wrong and be part of a dialogue, part of a discourse that is very engagement baby at the moment.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: And there you go.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, for me, just the irony is he's like, it's they're not doing anything, they're doing like a TikTok dance.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, well, what is a skit on SNL?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like, is that something like you know, and I do think I don't know if he's up to date on what's going on in TikTok.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: The dances are not are not there anymore.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: The dances have left the platform.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the dances were when it was just young people using TikTok.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: And now, since we're on it, you know, the age has gone up.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think the average age is 37.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, no way.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: So close to my own age.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: So you saw that.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: You so you posted on Instagram.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: You're on Insta.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: What are some other platforms?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: You are a top voice on LinkedIn.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: I cannot say this enough, people.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: She is a top voice on LinkedIn.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: And what other platforms are you on?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I post on LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok, and Substack.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: These are my four.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: Damn, okay.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: You're not on the YouTube.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't know.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's just because I don't know, I haven't figured it out.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how to do it.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm intimidated and because it has to be long.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's like I think it sounds interesting as somebody who like I'm Canadian, we're Canadian.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: Spoil oh, bombshell.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: By the way, we are Canadian.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't get monetized in like for TikTok in Canada, which means I make zero doll hairs from TikTok.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um and do it for the love of the game.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: She's posting for the love of the game.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: I just want everyone to know I'm I'm altruistically posting on TikTok.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so YouTube, I think, for Canadians always seems like potentially the beacon of a payoff.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's intimidating.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't know how that platform works.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you have to be really obsessed.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think I got obsessed with LinkedIn.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, then I knew how to make content for it.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: I want to double tap on that.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm getting obsessed with LinkedIn.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think that to some people, this is still new.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: I've been, you know, I've been checking LinkedIn.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: I myself have been posting on LinkedIn recently.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it is a very unique platform.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, where I think it's fair to say, I don't feel this way about the way you post, but I think it's fair to say that a lot of the stuff, it's basically you're clocking in for another day at the bullshit factory when you're posting on LinkedIn.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a fascinating platform because in no other platform are is your profile tied to like your market value in society, right?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like you you have to be your full self or like you your not your full self, but you cannot be your full self, is what I'd say.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, okay.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: There, Paulo.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: You have to be a very specific version of yourself.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: It can really be tied to like your profile picture and your work history.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like you can be anonymous, is the thing.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: You can't be anonymous you can't be a shithead on LinkedIn.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: Which is one nice thing.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it it's so it functions unlike any other platform where there really aren't trolls.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: I I've heard of some people getting like some negativity in their DMs, but like quite literally, I've been posting on LinkedIn consistently for two years, and I've like really never had more than like a dissenting opinion.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: That the it is the trolling on LinkedIn is wow, I disagree with this too.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'd like to push back.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: Which is like, you know, as much as I think it is the bullshit factory, it is also somewhat refreshing that no one's gonna be a complete shithead to you on LinkedIn.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think too, like this, it it this like um kind of like overlaps with what I was talking about the in the personal branding video that's blowing up right now, is that, you know, there's kind of a like in the olden days, you could work in this sort of linear fashion, and then you would get work history, and then you'd maybe have some like contacts or some connections that would help you get your next job, and it's like now that doesn't work, resumes don't work, and so like now everyone is expected to- I don't think anything works, nothing works, and that's why I actually think LinkedIn is it's already big.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: We already see you know, there's LinkedIn lunatics on on X, ne, nay Twitter.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, but it is becoming a little bit for so long.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think everyone made a LinkedIn profile in 2016, 2017.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Except for me.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, only but they didn't, but they didn't like do anything with it.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: Every once in a while you got like an email notification that someone's on and you were like, I don't go there.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: No one goes there.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but people are now there.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think, of course, this is tied into the economy.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and um it is not fun out there for people trying to get a job.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: And they're just like, if this is one thing I can post on that can help me either get a job, get a better job, or just be seen by people as someone who does a job, then you know what, why not?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: We have to post anyway, right?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we have to post.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think that like the way I see the platforms, especially like where LinkedIn fits into all of them, is that if you were like, I would like to circumvent the traditional career ladder, and I don't want to have to go through like, I don't know, kind of the conventional, like linear equation of like, okay, I spend more time here and then I get a slight bump up or whatever.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: You want to circumvent that, and you were like, I'm gonna spend one hour every week trying to change my career in drastic ways.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: You you the best you could do is spend that hour on LinkedIn, not on Instagram, not on TikTok.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, not paid by LinkedIn.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: LinkedIn, I would love for us to work together, but you know, because here's the thing you know, LinkedIn is not cool.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's fair.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like I said, we're not paid.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: LinkedIn's not cool.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, a lot of people might hear this and it might really rub them the wrong way.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: They're like, oh my God, I don't want to go on LinkedIn and have to post.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: But like we said at the top, we are old women who have lived a life.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: And in this day and age, I think we can all agree we're part of the middle class of being online, which means you kind of you kind of have to post.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well that's you kind of have to be there.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's the point I made in the video.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: As I said, like, I'm sorry, but I do think increasingly it is a necessity to have a personal brand.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I know that makes people feel upset because it it's like we don't want to have to brand ourselves.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a human being.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to be a brand.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to be an enterprise.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: And yet, it's like your other option is then, okay, then you have to do the conventional career ladder.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: And to me, that is more odious than posting online.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: As a poster, I would say I myself am not, I'm certainly not at the heights of a karm.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: Not myself, but I have been with others who have.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: I also managed my mom.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna say, do we want to talk about your mom?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: We can absolutely talk about my mom.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: My mom is a true influencer.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, she isn't really anymore because she does not want to be online.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: But my mom is Moments of Chain.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: Previously on Instagram, she knew to that account.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: Still on TikTok just because I want people to be able to see what I built.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think you you built your mom's influencer uh career brick by brick.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: I really did.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but you know what?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: She's the raw goods.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: When you got, when you're when you're already using, you know, the Mona Lisa or whoever, like it's very easy to just paint it.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: Just take the video.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: My mom is 74.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how many influencers are in that?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I see more and more, actually.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: I see more and more older influencers.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: The boomers.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe, I don't know.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: But she she's got the goods.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: She's beautiful, she's charming, she um knows how to classy broad.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: She's a classy broad, she knows how to make things, she makes delicious food, she sews her own clothes.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: So wait, but tell, like, talk about what is her account about.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: So her account, I would say, is lifestyle.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: It is her silently making lunch, usually for me to eat.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I just would film her because I'm at her house once a week anyway, usually, just to hang out.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I just was looking at her one day and I said to myself, my mom is such an influencer.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if I just pointed the camera and turned it on, I'm sure she would be successful.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: And that is literally what happened.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: It was very, I hate to say it, but it was very easy to get to like 100K followers.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: It did not be fun.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: But also I feel like we should give you your flowers for like being a mastermind.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: I I I know talent.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I'm hanging out with you.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: But but I got to see, so it was interesting because I actually I was at TikTok at the time when we started doing it.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's the thing in my mind that like I feel like you were so attuned to like what the algorithm could do and what it what it like.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: I knew certain things.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think for any of these platforms, just listen.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: All of these platforms have like creator managers or product marketers, and they're putting out little case studies or they're giving announcements.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: Just listen to what they're saying.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: What they're saying is what you should, if you want to potentially get a little boost, is what you should be doing.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: If they're saying we're really excited about long form video, honey, you better bump those, better bump that runtime up.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: How long?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: Just just listen to what they're saying.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: And that's probably, I mean, ideally that fits with what you're making anyway.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I knew I knew that it should be not trending music, because that can be stripped.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: If your entire career is dependent on you lip syncing, then that's a tricky boat to put yourself in.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I knew that it could be like a little longer.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: We didn't have to be super chop chop, 15 seconds only.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I just, I just that what did you do?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: Who did for hooks though?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: We didn't do any hooks.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Did you do text on screen?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's the hook was look at this gorgeous seven-year-old woman.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's what the hook is.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Is like you're scrolling on TikTok and you see a 74-year-old woman and you're like, okay, this is different.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I also like it is a very specific, it's aspirational.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's an aspirational influencer, which is an incredibly hard thing to be.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Selling the dream.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: And she's aspirational because she doesn't have to work, yet she has money.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: She's retired.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, she's just that is the dream.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, she's 70 something, so that's where she's at.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: She is good at things, like everything she makes looks good.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: She has great taste.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: Her house is gorgeous.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: Her clothes are fabulous.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: And she's a babe.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, these are all things that still remain true no matter what age you're at.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: But I think the age was probably a differentiating factor.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's the pattern disrupt.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's probably what.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's why you didn't need like a crazy hook.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because the thing is, let's say if you if all of those factors were the same, but she was 24, I don't think you would have seen that growing.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: You would have no, not certainly not in that time frame.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: Certainly not.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um like I I don't know how these young hot babes do it.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: They were a little bad.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know what?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think that like I've been reading this book by Catherine Jezer Morton.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: She's a prof in I've talked to you about her before, but she's a prof in Montreal.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: She's a sociologist.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: She just wrote this book called The Story of Your Life, and it's about social media.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: But it's actually more about social media for like non-influencers.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's it's more about like why do regular people want to use enormous yeah, why do they want to use social media?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like we we are diabolically driven to to want to share our story, and then social media gives us a good platform.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: But she talks in that book in a way that I find really validating about like it is really hard work to post on social media.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's a job.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: It absolutely is.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: If my mom cared enough, if my mom woke up one day and was like, I want to be an influencer, would she have been able to do it in the time it took?
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: You actually don't need someone else to film you and edit you.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: But I I think if you have someone who has a very clear-eyed vision of who you are and what about you is interesting and how to translate that into a video, that's such a leg up.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, good job.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, but I wondered about that too.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have I have a friend who came to me.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: She's like my sister's best friend, and she has like a bizarre job where she's like this independent book publisher.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: She lives in Europe.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: She was like, at the starting of the year, she was like, I need to grow my account by this date when this book comes out that I'm I'm launching it.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, could could we get her like followers?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: And she's been the perfect pupil.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: She's done like everything I've told her to, but she just gets it.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think she has some of these elements you're talking about with your mom.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: She has she has grown to like from zero to almost 60k in like the last four months.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: And but I think it's because there's that vision, right?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is like maybe it's like a kind of background, like digital fluency or like algorithmic fluency where you're like, okay, these are the pieces you have to put into place.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think there's something to say for like, could I could could you repeat that?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Could I repeat this?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great question.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: And here's the thing: I don't think I could do this for myself.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think if I was setting it up for myself, or if I had a me, I don't think it would have been what it was for my mom.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: It was very quick, and it's not if we're talking about it as if it's she's like Emily Marico.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: She's not, you know, she I think she hit 160 at her peak on both platforms.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: But you know it's yeah, it's a lot.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, but happy to chat about Emily Marico if you want to, though.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I love Lisa and Emily Marico.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, she moved and her new house is Fab, from what little I've seen of it.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but so I have not experienced the internet myself.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: I have experienced it as a creator, but not from a super personal way the way you have and are currently at this very moment.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: But I have seen, I have posted a video of my mom, and you know, you go to bed that night and you wake up the next morning, it started like 10K, 10K views, let's say.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: And you wake up and it's at 800,000.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: And you're like, oh fuck.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: And what went through my head is I was like, am I gonna I'm always like, am I gonna get fired?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, is or am I gonna get canceled?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: From TikTok?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: Or is something or from anything.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: At any, yes, at the time I was at TikTok with my mom, or but like at any job I'm at, uh, I'm like, is this gonna backfire in some way?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't know if you feel that when you're I mean, now you don't really have to worry about it that much.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I should quit my job.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say at my last company, they were very pro-personal brand.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: And like, I feel like everyone loves to talk about like the K-shaped economy right now.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe I'm being like an economist here.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, I kind of think companies right now are like K-shaped about personal brands, where they're like either they really want their employees to be like posting on LinkedIn and kind of like internal advocates for the company slash build your personal brand will jump on the coattails, yeah, or they're like anti, like do not have an online presence, and I don't see a lot of the in between.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I wasn't afraid of my last company because they were pro.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the company before that I would say was just totally oblivious.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like they were just like, oh, whatever, you know?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I wouldn't be surprised if we started to see more contracts that prohibit like either prohibit or enforce.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: You gotta post about LinkedIn three times a week, that's part of your salary.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, there's like, I mean, I I was like, I don't think this is quite the right terminology, but like contractually obligated to post about LinkedIn.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: But that was that was uh clear to me from the beginning.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like foisted on me halfway through.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: But I do worry about there's like kind of what feels like dystopian things happening at like Starbucks and other companies where now they have these kind of like employee creator programs, and I think they're positioning it as like, oh, we already have these like internal advocates, like let's give them the mic kind of thing.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: But then, you know, there's like lots of concerns there, like, well, what happens if I don't want to make content and have an employee?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I just think there's like all of these like what ifs that could open up that could be quite uh catastrophic.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: Very messy, very messy.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, speaking of catastrophic, we didn't discuss you're we talked about all the things you're on.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: If you're not on X, okay, so I have only just started monitoring it because You're monitoring the situation.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm monitoring the situation because you told me that it's a good place.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Not you weren't like you should go on it, but you were more like, like I said to you, are you on there?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you were like begrudgingly, yes.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'm on yeah.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: I I mean I never left.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone else has left, it does feel like I think it takes a little while on any platform to understand how to surf it, like how to navigate it.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I'm still learning on X because I only will browse or like scroll on the following.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: I find the for you on X to just be like a fire hose of the world's worst phenomenon.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I I don't know how the algorithm works at X, but I do think it is if you tap on one tweet that has the word Charlie Kirk, you're gonna get anything that's ever been written about Charlie Kirk on your free page.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: It is intense.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: The weight that they're assigning to certain keywords, I think, is too much.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Too much.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think of algorithms often as like a person who can't pick up on nuance.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: So if you were like, hey, I love chocolate, an algorithm's like, oh my god, I'll get you all the chocolate you want.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Please never leave never close my app.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I was reading, I was reading Emily Sunberg's Feed Me, and it's she said something about it, it was like the only the only Canadians I know, or like the my favorite Canadians, or something like that.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's two people mentioned, you and somebody else.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I was and I was like, I'm a feed me subscriber, and I was like, who's this Canadian gal?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I looked you up on LinkedIn, my favorite platform, yes, and I saw you were in Toronto, and I was like, well, like our this is fate's aligning.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: Then I said, Do you want to get coffee?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Which I suppose was bold of me.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then I realized you lived very close to me.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: We live so close together, like five minutes apart.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: And you're a top voice on LinkedIn.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I checked my LinkedIn.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: At the time, I checked it like once a month.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm like, I'm convinced that it was meant to be for us to be friends because of that.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you were so impressed by my top voice.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like you were like, I must meet that.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: I was I I genuinely think in this day and age, Carmen, I genuinely think when someone takes the time to reach out to you and says, let's get coffee, and if you do live within, you know, a walkable distance because I don't have a car, I think that's awesome.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: She's she failed her license.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: I did fill my G1 driver's test, Canadian driver's chest.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: I failed.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I I think it's very fun.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: And we really now are friends, and I think that's great.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: And we're both Canadian, just yeah, so that everyone else.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Both old, both Canadian, and both have lived through all eras of the internet.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's what this show's about.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's why.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: I I mean, is there anything else we need to cover for this first intro episode?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think we covered a lot.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think we, yeah.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, do we want to do just a quick for this episode of what's going on on the internet right now?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do a quick what we're embracing, what we understand, and what we're just ignoring.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: We're leaving it on the table.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: I can go first if you'd like.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, this is our version of Mary Fuck Kill.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: So here's something I'm embracing.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: I embrace Cezanne.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: Now, Cezanne, uh all of the discourse I'm seeing, because I am on Cezanne talk.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: All of the discourse is like, we hate Cezanne now because it's not French enough anymore.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I'm taking from it.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: Why what do you mean it's not French enough?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think it's more a bit more nuanced the way people are breaking it out.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: They're saying like the knits aren't what they used to be.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: There's not as much detail.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, this looks like something I could get at Coast, C O S, that store.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's how you call it.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: Cos.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like, this isn't the same.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't the Cezanne we know and love.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: I listen, I still like Cezanne.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't, you've also gotten some Cezanne stuff for free.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: I got that.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, my mom did, and I took it from her.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: But yes.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm I'm a fan.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: I still embrace Cezanne.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: I still think it makes you look très franch, which is what we most well, I'll just I guess I'll just speak for myself.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: What I want to look at.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Are you wearing it right now?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: These jeans are Cezanne.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: Rep in your repping your brand.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm not sponsored.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm standing by it.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: But I embrace them.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not turning my back.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that goes just to a bigger thing.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: I don't turn my back on something just because there's a couple naysayers online.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: This will come to means you have a spine.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so wait, are you gonna do your understand now or am I doing embrace?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you do your embrace?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: My embrace, I don't know if this is contentious.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: So every celebrity has their own like product now, right?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like Hailey Bieber has Road and Kendall Jenner has 818 tequila and all that.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't know how I felt about it, but I'm gonna embrace it because here's the thing once you become an entrepreneur of your own brand, you don't have to do everything as SpawnCon.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of helps you circumvent that.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and you could say, well, that's that's sort of sneaky, but it's also like, yeah, you gotta you gotta um adapt.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well, everything does become SpawnCon, but for your own product.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: But you don't have to disclose it.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's what I mean.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't feel as thirsty.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: You just feel like I'm the boss of my own company.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's just a day in the life selling this incredible product.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, maybe the what we should take from that is like we should all be entrepreneurs instead of content creators.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, it's it's really one in the same now because every entrepreneur wants to be wants to have some sort of online presence of look at how great a boss I am.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: Look at this incredible product I'm building, build in public, build with me.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, come along on this journey where I make something that you will eventually pay me money for, hopefully someday.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: Today.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, so sort of, sort of, yeah.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, here's something I'm understanding.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to say I understand this concept because of Carmen.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: I thought I understood this concept before, okay, but you cleared it up for me.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think this might clear it up for others.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: I understand hopium.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: I understand it.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: Hopium, I thought, was just the general feeling of hope.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: But also when you said the word hopium to me, I'd never heard that.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then I really started to think about it.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: So describe hopium in your.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: You caught on immediately.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: Hopium, I thought was just like, oh, I see, I see someone, let's just take an example.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: This woman who posted a video of herself telling her husband, I sold a digital product.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I made$700,000 in this video.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was the perfect case of hopium.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my God.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Seven, and because it wasn't even like within a month, I don't think.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was within in the span of like a couple days.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: Now, again, something I say as someone who worked at TikTok and watched so many TikTok videos, everything online is fake.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Everything online to an extent is a little fake.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm not saying she didn't make the money.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's very possible she did.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: Even perhaps likely.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think she did.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think she did.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: I would I would vote that I believe it's true.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, why why would we post this?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: Why would we set the camera up this way?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: Why would we because she's looking to make more than 700,000 next time because all you suck us?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna watch it as I did.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: I had the moment.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: I myself, I had the moment I thought, should I be selling digital products?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like why?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like your product is like how to make your mom famous on the day.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, great, by the way.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, sign up now.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I yes, in that moment I felt the I was like, wow, should I be looking into this?
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: Should I like, is this a real thing?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a 38-year-old woman, and I myself succumed to this hope, this potential hope.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: So it really can get anyone at any age.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then I explained, or I just brought up hopium to you, and you added on the context of what is hopium?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: What is opium?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you go, you explain it better than me.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I think like the difference between hopium and hope, like, hope is like, ooh, maybe I could do this too.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Hopium is like, I mean, when people smoke opium, they get so high that they do nothing.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: They they basically just like pass out.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think what happens is you like chain smoke hopium videos, and then instead of being motivated to do things, you are content with just watching it because you've basically like smoked yourself into a stupor.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what it is.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I went and watched a bunch of it because I was like, what is this?
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: How did this happen?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: I went and watched it all, and I thought to myself, I will never do this.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because I don't really quite understand what it is either.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: But also, it's that's like that's really putting yourself out there in the interwebs to sell a product like that.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: To sell hopium, you have to lose a piece of yourself.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I think so.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's like selling any other drug, right?
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you have to be okay with it.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, in some ways, selling some drugs are illegal, and we love Canada, where you can buy things on every street corner, or not even at the street corner, in a chic shop.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but yeah, it is it is not something that I think everyone is built to do.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I experienced the hopium there.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's something I certainly understand for.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: I hope Canada sponsors us.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: That'd be really nice.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: The government of Canada should be sponsoring this podcast.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: Let me be unequivocal about this.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: Mark Carney, you're leaving dollars on the table if you're not sponsoring this podcast.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I was kind of like split between like my understanding, which is one, I sort of wrote down clip farms, clip agencies, because I'm like, I really do feel like I need to understand these.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like my my feed is just full of like the most sinister ones I saw.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: So clip farms basically, you know, it's like, I don't know, some sort of agency.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: They're often people who are paid based on views.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: You clip anything up, and it's kind of like slicing and dicing internet clips for the max amount of reach and reactions, but it's also kind of like clogging the feeds.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it I think it's yeah, it's 80% of anyone's feed is a clip.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: Hit the mic.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: Is it okay?
• 35:37
  unknown: Oh my god.
• 35:37
  unknown: Okay.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I also just think that it's like it's it's almost like the downfall of social media.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like all of the clips that I see, I'm just like, this, this is, you know, this is what's gonna make it so that nobody wants to go on here anymore.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I saw one the other day that like blew my mind, which was there was a kind of software that like records your meeting notes and then like turns it into action items.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: And somebody was like, they made rage bait, they made rage bait clips showing them seeing like I never listen to my manager.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: I just put this on and then I micromanage her.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then somebody made a reaction video to that, and they were like, Managers, what would you do if you saw this?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then I realized that the reaction video was also a plant.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, this is fucked.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: The fact that we are like, we are like, it's like inception or something of advertising.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: It was a blooming onion of of just like absolute like nefarious behavior.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so I this is something that I feel like has to be understood, and I like want to stay on top of it.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: So that was yeah, like I said, just question everything you see online.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, is this real and to what extent?
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: There are certainly, I'm sure there's there's some stuff that is still just fun, authentic.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: I just wanted to share this with the world.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: But they're for the most part, I think the genie's out of the bottle a little bit on social media.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't even call it social media on a lot of these platforms now.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's not really like we're trying to connect with each other that much.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's more like we're trying to sell something.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like reaction media or something like that.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and honestly, when I see something wholesome now, my brain immediately says, This is AI.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: If I see like a something cute, something heartwarming, I'm like, this isn't real.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a bummer.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: That is, you know, as someone whose feed have been cat pilled, I've been I don't need to be dog pilled.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: It is sad to realize that, you know, for a while I was seeing a lot of cats in yoga pants.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I never felt like more of a boomer.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: I showed it to my husband, I was like, look at this cat wearing yoga pants.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, Oh, this AI picture?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: I've I thought my brain's like, oh my god, I fell for this.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: How could I have fallen for something so incredibly stupid?
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: But we all have a dark moment where we fall for an AI video and then and then you know, we carry that shame with us for a long time and it helps us in life.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: But here's the thing, I still, you know what?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: If I saw a cat in yoga pants, video or picture, I still think it's pretty great.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's great.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: Whoever came up with that, you know, my I took my hat to you.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: Now, what is something about the internet these days that we are going to ignore?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: That we're comfortable saying, I'm opting out.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm opting out of this for now.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I saw, and I really was kicking myself.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: I told you this.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so mad at myself for not saving this video because I would love it to slice it in so everyone could see.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we could find it.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: We can find it.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm it wasn't even a video.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, it was like a it was a carousel slideshow.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: But it was a very normal seeming like golf dad account sharing.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like you set that up, like, you know, I'm just watching my golf dads.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: I got it in the it was in the FYP.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: I got it.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, I hit the mic.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it was in the FYP.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: I got it, and it was just like the difference in pictures between my wife, my wife's day and my day.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so it goes from 6 a.m.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah to 9 p.m.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, you know, he's at golf every hour of the day, she's taking care of the two kids every hour of the day.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, yep, yeah.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm thinking to myself, I already know.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: I look at the I can already see the it's not a ratio, I, but you know, of the comments.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking to myself, all right, I already know that these comments are gonna be filled with people saying, you know, leave him or leave us out of it, divorce him, like what put this on her feed, not mine, whatever.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: But I I went and looked at the full profile, and it really is just like some normal, like, couple.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: Do they make this kind of like rage bait video all the time?
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, so here's where the ignore part comes in.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, I'm I'm not gonna investigate this too much.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: These people knew what they were doing, without a doubt.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: I don't love rage bait as like a normal person's content strategy.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't love it.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: It feels icky in the same way that selling hopium is icky.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's predatory.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's it's just how far are you gonna go with this?
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because like you it can go pretty far, and it's a bummer.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, I'm not a fan.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: I I understand trolling.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think trolling is fun and frisky.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, like a full content strategy of just making people angry all the time.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm again, I'm ignoring it.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: No more.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think like it's also in my mind, I'm like, well, what's the retention strategy there?
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: You can get a lot of views that way, but I'm like, you're not really getting followers.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: And are people gonna yeah, exactly.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: Are they gonna love you for this?
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: Is is Charmin toilet paper gonna reach out for a brand sponsorship because But what I wonder is like, would a would a golf dad brand reach out?
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: Probably.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: We know all about those golf brands made some mistakes.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: The less that the speaking of ignore.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but range bait.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: I do think though, in general, like everyone is feeling just like fatigued over like, am I just being baited?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and is this real?
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: Am I being baited?
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's an enough already.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so I ignore, I ignored that, even though I didn't bring it up just now.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, we are gonna ignore it as of right now.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, my ignore is influencers apologizing for ads.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because this I find that do you notice this?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: I tell me more.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I take a picture every time it happens.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have like a bank.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: I have a bank of influencers apologizing for ads, and it'll usually be like, hey, like you guys, like the thing is that there's always this language that goes along with it that that makes it to me quite icky, where they say, like, you know, I love you.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's always this like they really tap into the parasocial relationship and they'll be like, I just have a lot of ads right now.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: So like I gotta pay for something.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but but this like, or like, hey, the next few slides are gonna be an ad.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: Or I've got like four ads this week, but I just wanna say, like, I love you guys.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: And my my feeling is like, okay, I post ads, yeah, and and I know the feeling of being like fuck, I hope people don't like revolt against this, right?
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: But it is that's the that's the that's the job.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: The payoff.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's the job.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: You build an audience and that's a lot of work, and then you know, instead of saying to your followers, can you pay me money for this?
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: You take money.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, there's a there is something gross about that, but like, you know, there's a there's a or not gross, I don't think that's the right way to say it.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's uncomfortable to think about who's footing the bill, I think sometimes, but I feel like having to apologize for doing your job is unnecessary and gives me the ick.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I also would say, you know, it is 2026.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: We've been online a long time, influencers have been online a long time.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: People have been selling things online for a long time.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: I I like I said, the genie's out of the bottom bottle, the jig is up.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: We all know if people are making a living online, yeah, like solely online, as solopreneurs, as content creators, whatever, yeah, someone is like that does have to be foot somehow.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: For some people, maybe they have uh uh a spouse who's bankrolling them at first.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for some people, it is for my mom, she's retired.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: But for most people, if they have reached that point, yeah, it's a different collection of if they're in the States getting money from the platforms themselves.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's a lot of brand sponsorships, it's affiliate linking.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, selling online products.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, that is just part of how they're gonna do it.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: But it also like to me degrades the the partnership.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like, I don't know, you can be like, hey, I have I have ads going up, and that's this is how I make my money.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, and I don't know, maybe I'll splice it in, but there's like creator Ellie Fraser, and she recently came on and she was like, This is a job, babe.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I was like, respect.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: I yeah, it's it's a funny thing making your living online through cr content in any way, and people have a lot of feelings about that.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: Pete Davidson made clear.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but yeah, but it is a job, it is work.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: I and it is it takes a toll that we'll get into in later episodes, I think.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: But it's it's not for the week.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: I I would never denigrate the people who are doing it.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: And not just because you are my daughter doing it.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sitting right here.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: Guys, thank you so much for listening.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: This was our first episode of Lunds.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you had fun.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: I had fun.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we will be back next time.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you for listening.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for being here, Danielle.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Carmen.