Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / Your Brain, Your Way: Curiosity, Neurodiversity, and Healing with Dr. Chantel Prat | EP 28 Equine Assisted World

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Your Brain, Your Way: Curiosity, Neurodiversity, and Healing with Dr. Chantel Prat | EP 28 Equine Assisted World · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

0:00
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
0:02
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
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author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
0:08
Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
0:12
thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
0:15
I have a request.
0:16
If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
0:22
It really helps us get this work done.
0:24
As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
0:27
And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
0:31
equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
0:35
If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
0:40
com.
0:41
So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
0:47
Welcome back.
0:48
I'm your host Rupert Isaacson, and I've got Dr.
0:52
Chantel Pratt with me today who's a neuroscientist.
0:55
And as you know, in our work movement method, horse Boy Method Tacking, we like
1:00
neuroscience because we tend to be working with the brain and the nervous system.
1:04
So it's sort of logical for us to look to neuroscientists who hopefully understand
1:09
about such things for mentorship.
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So I'm excited to have Chantel on today.
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Chantel's also a horse, woman and has dived into that side
1:19
of neuroscience as well.
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So we get to ask her some questions about horses', brains but also about.
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The interaction between a human brain and what goes on with horses, because
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those of us who are involved in the therapeutic and equine assisted
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world need to know these things.
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And because the science is rapidly developing all the time and changing,
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we sort of rely on people like Chantel to keep us up to snuff.
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So Chantel, welcome.
1:49
Thank you for coming on.
1:50
Who are you and what do you do?
1:52
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:52
Thank you so much for having me.
1:54
You might have noticed that I laughed a little bit when you said Dr.
1:56
Chantel Pratt.
1:57
It's true.
1:58
I am a doctor, but I'm also a first gen college student.
2:01
My husband and I both were raised by people with high school
2:05
educations and I still, I mean, I think I got my PhD in 2004.
2:11
But it's still more often than not someone's making fun
2:15
of me when they call me Dr.
2:15
Pratt.
2:16
'cause I've just crashed into a.
2:18
Hole with an ice cream cone or something like this.
2:20
But nonetheless, yes, it is true.
2:23
And and I really deeply believe that science is an important way for asking
2:28
and understanding these big questions that at the end of the day feel
2:35
almost more ethereal or I was going to say metaphysical, but like when you
2:41
were talking about myself as a horse person and myself as a neuroscientist.
2:46
I thought like both of these are really hard things to understand and I, I
2:51
just wanna start by say, I'm gonna give you my credentials and what have
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you, but I just wanna start by saying that probably because of how long I've
3:01
been studying these things, and I'm talking, looking at pictures of brains,
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you know, doing the numbers you know, working with baby and, and older horses.
3:12
And I have a huge amount of humility and I, and I probably am much more
3:17
aware of all of the things I don't know than the things I do know, because
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these are really complicated questions and really intense, immense goals.
3:25
So.
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That being said I am a neuroscientist, a psychologist, and a linguist at the
3:32
University of Washington in Seattle.
3:35
My research for over 25 years has been looking at individual differences in
3:41
how the brain gives rise to the mind.
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So I am a cognitive neuroscientist by training, which is a fun thing
3:48
to say when somebody asks you at the bar, because they either will leave
3:52
you alone, pretend to understand what it means or ask the question.
3:56
But, you know, neuroscience is a huge field and some people
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are really, you know, trying to understand it at the chemical level.
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And some people are very interested in the nervous system from the
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neck down, the, you know, the, the body and the spine and all of that
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important stuff, vagal and et cetera.
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And I have really been focused on the sense-making aspects of the brain and.
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Not just the sense-making aspects of the brain, but how our individual biology
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and experiences give rise to the way that we connect the dots when we try and
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understand the world and our place in it.
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And this is huge.
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You know, we were talking to, I was, I started by saying I have a
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lot of humility about this, but I just wanna point out that our, our
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brain is about 86 billion neurons.
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It's one of the most, if not the most complex systems studied by humans.
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It's totally crazy to get into the idea that your brain is studying itself.
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So all of the limits we have in understanding the thing are, you know,
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it, it's, it's a closed loop system here.
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But even though the brain is complex and powerful, it's, it's finite
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and it tries to understand and operate in this infinite world.
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This infinite world full of energy that is constantly changing by
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taking discreet bite-sized chunks of information and then connecting the dots.
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We're constantly trying to figure out what's going on now based on what's
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happened to us in the past, and we're constantly trying to predict
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the future, but we really don't like our understanding of the now.
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The past and the future is just largely inferential.
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It's largely connecting the dots and people see, think, and feel
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differently because they have different brains and different experiences
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that have shaped those brains.
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Rupert Isaacson: Tell us about your book and the studies that went into
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that book because this is really, seems to be at the heart of your
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work is, is looking at individuality.
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Dr. Chantel Prat:
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah.
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Rupert Isaacson: And what that means.
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Dr. Chantel Prat:
6:05
Yeah.
6:05
Rupert Isaacson: So yeah, so tell us about it.
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Dr. Chantel Prat:
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My book is called The Neuroscience of You, how Every Brain Is Different
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and How to Understand Yours.
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And, you know, the book was created with the goal of helping people
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understand themselves first and foremost.
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I think you know, I've been arguing that theories about how the brain gives rise
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to the mind that are one size fits all, which is the vast majority of research
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that exists don't fit anyone very well.
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It's just like one size fits all T-shirt, right?
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It's down to your knees or, or not.
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And and importantly, I think in that process of helping people
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understand themselves, I hope I am laying a foundation for, for helping
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people to relate across differences.
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So if we think that there's one way to learn.
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Well, if we think there's one way to be intelligent, if we think there's one
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style of decision making that is good, we, we operate in this totally false
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paradigm that makes us see differences as better, better or worseness, right?
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We, we, we naturally line up like, oh, I'm smarter.
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I'm better at math.
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I have a good memory.
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I am, and, and the truth is that the human humans are social primates.
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Our brains evolved to solve problems collectively in groups, in small family
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groups mostly, or small tribal groups.
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Because of this and because their vast power and because we can never understand
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the infinite ever-changing world, these differences are features, not bugs.
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We, we, there are trade-offs in the different ways that we can be.
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And the book talks about things that vary from introversion and extroversion
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and how that's explained by our dopamine reward system to whether
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we are like strongly right-handed, strongly left-handed ambidextrous.
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And what this says about how jobs get assigned to our two hemispheres, always
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looking at trade-offs, always looking at the match rather than saying, this
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brain design is better or worse, looking at what is this brain design well.
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Well designed to do what is the match between what I am asking
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my brain to do and my natural predispositions and the things I've
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learned from my previous experiences.
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So, I mean, I'm, I'm about, when we get off this podcast, I'm going to
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start week 10 of a class that I'm teaching here at the University of
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Washington with 30 undergrads who have gone through the book, done a lot
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of me, what I call me search, right?
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Done a lot of tests to figure out how their brains work.
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And probably the thing that I'm proudest about is to hear people move
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from saying things like, I'm bad at attention, or I'm bad at memory, or I'm.
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This way and that way to saying like, there's a trade off, or I know
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that I'm better at this than that.
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And just that the sort of self-acceptance and awareness that comes from
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understanding, from moving from a sort of strength deficit idea towards thinking
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about the match between the environment and what you're asking your brain to do.
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Rupert Isaacson: Of course, the environments that we find ourselves in are
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largely determined by economics, right?
9:36
Yeah.
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And so the diversely,
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express,
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ishness of the human species, which I presume must be
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across all mammalian species.
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Mm-hmm.
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Presumably comes about because any natural environment has an infinitude of.
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Potential things that can happen.
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Mm-hmm.
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And you might be, you might specialize, so you might be more
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hunter or gatherer if you are.
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Mm-hmm.
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Within hunter gatherer, you might be more, you might be more
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running hunter or bow hunter.
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Mm-hmm.
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Or tracker.
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Mm-hmm.
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You might be more medicinal plant person.
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You might be more really able to discern between plants that almost look the same
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as each other, doppelganger type plants.
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Mm-hmm.
10:28
Or you might be the person that can really get up well in the
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trees and shake down the nuts.
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So you could see, you could definitely see why all of these.
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This infinitude of brains would evolve.
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Mm-hmm.
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In any kind of, and I think
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Dr. Chantel Prat:
10:42
more so, more so in, in animals that exist in packs.
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Right.
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So I think that there are revolutionary so I think that like, you know, I, this
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is not a brain thing, but I, I always compare the human brain to the pea
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cocktail where it's like, okay, you can say this pea cocktail is better or worse
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than this peacock tail based on how long it is or how colorful it is, or, you know.
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So I think in like, less collaborative animals, there probably are things
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that are more adaptive than others, but there are always differences.
11:11
Right.
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I guess the way selection, selection has unfolded for humans, you know, we
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selected four differences for sure.
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Rupert Isaacson: Right.
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So we also have the ability to pool our knowledge.
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Right.
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So
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Dr. Chantel Prat:
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Correct.
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Rupert Isaacson: And make strategies.
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Dr. Chantel Prat:
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Mm-hmm.
11:27
Rupert Isaacson: That seems to be our, our biggest superpower.
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We're sort of.
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Victims of our own success perhaps.
11:33
Yeah.
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But you could also see how we've arrived in the kind of culture that you and I live
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in at a point where economically now we've almost specialized our environment to a
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point where only certain types of brain can thrive in an easy or straightforward
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manner, and other types of brain
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get undervalued.
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Dr. Chantel Prat:
12:01
Mm-hmm.
12:01
Rupert Isaacson: And for real reasons, because within that more narrow economic
12:07
confine, indeed there are only like these three or four types of brain that,
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you know, really do well with that.
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And all those other ones, perhaps not so much.
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And this leads us into, or here's a, is a question.
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Does this lead us into a false set of assumptions?
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About normality.
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Mm-hmm.
12:27
And where we think normality is being able to conform to that narrow
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economic construct, whereas in fact, that narrow economic construct
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itself is, is an abnormality.
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Mm-hmm.
12:41
In the sort of greater history of mankind.
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Mm-hmm.
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And therefore, we're actually mistaken, but we're sort of
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right and wrong at the same time.
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And then if you come along with someone like me who would say, well, my experience
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of maths at school in the way that I was taught means that I think I'm bad at math.
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Later on when I had to homeschool my son in math, I realized that being bad
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at math was actually kind of a good thing because it meant, meant I could
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empathize with somebody who was No.
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And, and I could, I could look at.
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How to break things down.
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So I had to understand it first, and if I could understand it with the
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difficulties I had, then there was perhaps a sporting chance that he might Mm.
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Or they actually turned out to be better than me, of course.
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But
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I guess the question I'm asking is, do you still feel in this day and age of
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the recognition of diversity, which is different to when we were kids, that the
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sort of narrow idea of what's normal and what's not normal and what's a, a good
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brain and what's a bad brain, or has, has that now not all broken down a bit?
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Or am I just living under completely false solutions because I work within
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this field and think that people are actually, are, are people still stuck
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in these ideas of normal and, uh mm-hmm.
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Yeah.
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Dr. Chantel Prat:
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So there's two, two things I want to address.
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The first is about this particular economic, the definition of good
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being based on what makes money or what functions in the way
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we've set up Western societies.
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Mm-hmm.
14:23
And then you started to answer the question by talking
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about teaching your sons.
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I think it starts in education.
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I think the big problem is actually how education is set
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up, not how industry is set up.
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And I think that our educational systems are largely.
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Set up.
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I mean, it just boggles the mind because education is set up from a time in which
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only the teacher had the knowledge and like, you know, you're supposed to sit
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and sit still and listen because you have to transfer in this laborious way,
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knowledge from one brain to another.
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And we're so far, we've, we have evolved as a society, not as a brain, because
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where the brain is coming from, written language is still new and hard, right?
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So when you think about chat, GPT and all this stuff, like we've come so far,
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but yet we still have this model in which kids are supposed to sit still
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and passively absorb instruction.
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And that is so far from how any brain evolved to learn and problem solve.
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That I think you know, the challenges when it comes to value and what
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we value start much earlier than, than in the economic cri.
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Rupert Isaacson: Right.
15:31
And you talk, there is a correlation between that and industry, right.
15:35
Because of course, making kids sit down, shut up and
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Dr. Chantel Prat:
15:38
Yeah.
15:39
Behave
15:39
Rupert Isaacson: was part of preparing them to go work in factories,
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Dr. Chantel Prat:
15:41
sit in front of a Yes.
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Sit in front of a computer and,
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Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
15:44
Yeah.
15:44
So I mean, does not one create the other?
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Dr. Chantel Prat:
15:48
Yes, but not necessarily.
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I think what, and I think both to your question about where are we
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now, I think both are, coming to understand and appreciate differences.
16:00
Mm-hmm.
16:00
For different reasons.
16:01
So like I would argue, and, you know, I do.
16:05
So, I am on the advisory board for Ariana Huffington, who founded the Huffington
16:09
Post, has a company called Thrive Global, and it's about wellness in the workplace.
16:13
And we're creating a training there about diversity in the workplace
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and specifically about the benefits in decision making that come when
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you have different brains with different backgrounds at the table.
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So I think I would argue that there is an economic advantage to
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considering many different brain types.
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To having people who think, again, as we evolve to think and make decisions
16:39
in groups, to valuing people with these different brain types at the table.
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And when you create work environments that support different kinds of thinkers
16:50
and deciders, and you incorporate their ideas, you also create products
16:55
that work for more kinds of thinkers.
16:59
Mm-hmm.
17:00
So there, and, and and so I think we are at a sort of turning point where, you
17:09
know, I, I've been spending more and more time with C-level execs who understand.
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That diversity is not only about sitting around a table with people who look
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different than you and think the same.
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That's not it.
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That's not the magic sauce.
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It's sitting around a table with people with different experiences and
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different brain types that they can bring into this decision making space
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and learning how to appreciate these different perspectives and find something
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that will work well for more people.
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That there are a lot of advantages in that space
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Rupert Isaacson: is industry actually now Refinding the
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hunter-gatherer model because industry itself has become so diverse.
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You know, it used to be.
17:54
Mm-hmm.
17:54
A factory was sort of a factory and it ran with an assembly line and you know, you,
18:00
and it's now looking very, very different.
18:03
And in a few years, robots will do all that anyway and.
18:09
Are we at the point now this interesting point where we're returning to a sort
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of hunter-gatherer economy, but that's post-industrial, where we actually
18:19
now suddenly realize, oh my gosh, yes, we do need to create products
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for all these different brains, but this is actually, again, quite new
18:25
within the, since the Industrial revolution, things were more homogenized.
18:30
Yeah.
18:30
Interesting that, that you're there.
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What, what do you say?
18:35
You're working with these CEOs and so forth.
18:38
What are they saying about this and what are they, and then how
18:42
are they able to make their work environments possible for Yeah.
18:48
People with these different brains.
18:50
That's not just lip service saying, well, we're gonna hire Right.
18:52
So people Right.
18:53
Exactly.
18:54
Gonna hire so and so.
18:55
Exactly.
18:55
But they're gonna just go and shred paper or whatever.
18:57
Yeah, exactly.
18:58
Dr. Chantel Prat:
18:58
Exactly.
18:59
And so I think that that's, that's the real work.
19:02
So your, your vision of returning to hunter gatherer is quite
19:05
interesting because that's the work is that, naturally.
19:09
I think because of the way that we understand one another, there's
19:13
all this really interesting social neuroscience work that shows that if
19:17
we're in the wild and we're moving around choosing our friends, we
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choose people who work like we do.
19:23
Like you can predict.
19:25
They did this crazy fascinating study on an island in South Korea where they
19:30
created a social network of like 700 villagers and then stuck them in a scanner
19:36
and measured their brain connectivity and showed that you could predict who
19:40
would be friends with whom based on how similarly their brains were wired, and
19:46
that this explained, you know, friendships above and beyond things like age.
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Politics, personality, so long as they live close enough to
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have come into casual contact.
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When we're choosing people to spend time with, we choose people who work like us.
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And I think that's because our sort of default to mirror neurons and so forth
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and so on, allows us to make easier intuitive inferences when somebody
20:14
works like us now in the workplace.
20:17
I think that often how this translates is when they say somebody
20:21
is not a good fit culturally.
20:23
Like there are all these kind of like code words when you're in hiring and you might
20:26
say it's not a good fit for the culture or, and I think that that's a feeling that
20:31
comes when the person you're interviewing has a different brain, a different
20:36
thinking, feeling, behaving style.
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And I also think that we are more likely to think someone who comes up with
20:44
the same solution as we do is smarter.
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Because you can understand that solution.
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You agree with it.
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And so you're like, oh yeah, this is a great person I have on my team.
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It's like duplicating Triplicating myself, cloning myself.
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And so people need concrete examples and evidence.
21:06
It's hard.
21:07
It's certainly harder to create communication styles to create
21:11
management systems that go away from assumptions about how people think,
21:16
feel, and operate towards, you know, more personalized, individualized
21:21
spaces that support these differences.
21:24
And they need concrete examples for how this is gonna make them money, right?
21:28
And how the decision making will look.
21:29
'cause it's not gonna feel.
21:32
Like, oh, this is great.
21:34
You're brilliant.
21:35
I love you.
21:36
It's gonna feel weird.
21:37
Like, and so that's where I think the, my book has helped give some
21:41
kind of engineering examples.
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Like, this is how brains work.
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These are the weaknesses that are associated with all these kind of fast,
21:49
instant, probabilistic decision making.
21:51
This is what you're missing.
21:52
And so getting people to feel curious about the brain across
21:59
the table that is saying something that you might think is asinine
22:05
or doing something that you might think is asinine.
22:07
That's, I think, the magic and the secret sauce, because every brain does things
22:13
that they think are perfectly reasonable.
22:16
Every brain, every single brain is moving through the world trying
22:19
to find good things and avoid bad things based on their, their
22:23
engineering and their experiences.
22:24
So instead of thinking, why is this idea asinine, asking questions about
22:29
how that person got to that place.
22:32
Is this kind of opening experience for sort of,
22:38
you know, sort of reconceptualizing better or worse, right or
22:41
wrong with what am I missing?
22:44
Yeah.
22:44
What is this person highlighting that I missed?
22:47
Rupert Isaacson: I just wrote down, I just wrote curiosity underlined.
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Dr. Chantel Prat:
22:49
Yes.
22:50
It's curiosity is the magic.
22:52
It's my favorite thing that I learned about in writing my book.
22:54
And it's the secret sauce I think.
22:57
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I agree.
22:58
And I, you know, without curiosity, there's no innovation.
23:00
Without innovation, there's no long-term thriving economically.
23:04
Right.
23:04
Because conditions change.
23:06
So one has to, whether it's in hunter gatherer context here, there could be
23:10
a drought, there could be some natural thing that causes the shifting of changes.
23:15
Mm-hmm.
23:15
Natural resources.
23:16
Mm-hmm.
23:16
Obviously market forces, you know, we're seeing some disruptive
23:20
market forces going on as we as, as we speak here in March, 2025.
23:25
It's an interesting time.
23:27
Oh, boy.
23:27
If you're not curious, I mean, yeah.
23:29
How can you, how can you thrive in these things?
23:33
Right.
23:33
I want to bring you back though, to, you talked about mirror neurons.
23:37
Mm-hmm.
23:37
Mirror neurons are something which you hear a lot of people talk about.
23:41
Mm-hmm.
23:42
But I've got a, I've just caught a neuroscientist on the end of my screen.
23:45
Tell us exactly what neuro, what, what mirror neurons are.
23:49
Dr. Chantel Prat:
23:49
Well, I can tell you exactly how they were discovered and then I can tell
23:52
you about the ambiguities of them.
23:54
Right.
23:54
So a mirror neuron.
23:56
At its core is a neuron in the brain that responds, that is both
24:01
involved in generating an action in the person themselves and when they
24:06
observe someone else doing an action.
24:09
So it was first discovered in Italy in a monkey lab where they
24:14
were actually trying, so they had electrodes in this monkey's brain
24:18
and they were doing they were, you know, I don't know, putting fruit.
24:23
On a tray in front of the monkey.
24:24
And what they wanted to see is like what part of the motor cortex
24:29
executes a specific grabbing response.
24:32
So there's a lot of motor pro, a lot of brain is involved in just motor
24:36
programming and what they found, so they had, you know, these motor cortex
24:41
neurons isolated for this monkey's hand.
24:44
And what they found was the experimenter who was a human, by the way.
24:48
Obviously, I guess, I mean, would be really cool.
24:51
I
24:51
Rupert Isaacson: should be surprised.
24:51
I mean, it
24:52
Dr. Chantel Prat:
24:52
would be really cool to have monkeys.
24:54
But anyway, it was a human, that Italian monkeys, no, that exactly.
24:58
They're very social and very, very smart.
25:01
But the, when the human put like the, you know, the fruit, the treat
25:04
on the tray, they used the same grasp, the same motion that they
25:08
were trying to study in the monkey.
25:10
And they found these neurons started firing these neurons that were supposed
25:13
to be for motor programming started firing when they saw someone else.
25:20
Do the action that they are supposed to do.
25:22
So we know that there are populations of neurons in the human brain that
25:28
are both involved in the per, it's really important for language.
25:32
For instance, there are neurons in, around, in and around the sort of speech
25:38
bro's area that will listen to speech sounds and they sort of activate the
25:44
motor plan that would create those speech sounds and that helps them
25:48
understand where, where are the brain?
25:49
Are
25:49
Rupert Isaacson: these located
25:50
Dr. Chantel Prat:
25:50
mostly in the frontal cortex?
25:53
So they're mostly in the, I would say, both sides of the frontal cortex.
25:57
Now what happens is, I think so, so the criteria for something to be a
26:04
mirror neuron specifically is that I both generate a behavior and.
26:13
I respond when I see other people doing that behavior.
26:17
Okay.
26:17
And, and that's, and so like, you know, in the original research on animals,
26:22
we had an you know, an electrode in the brain and we were really
26:25
specific about what was going on.
26:27
Now there's, I think that the research has gotten fuzzier because when
26:31
you're looking at human brains and you don't have electrodes in them,
26:35
there are a lot of parts of the brain that do a lot of different things.
26:39
And so, you know, the mirror I, to the best of my knowledge, mirror
26:43
re neuron research has become controversial in some areas.
26:48
So like, one of the things that I think is quite evocative is the idea that mirror
26:53
neurons are involved in empathy and and.
26:59
One of the reasons I think this is evocative is how hard it is to
27:03
just, is empathy a single thing?
27:05
How hard it is to define empathy, how hard it is to catch a brain being empathetic.
27:10
And so usually when they study, you know, you have to think about this.
27:14
If you're thinking about flow or like creativity or things that are really
27:18
cool that we actually wanna understand.
27:20
If we can't time it to the precise millisecond, if we can't catch it
27:24
in action, if we can't cause it, how sure can we be that we're studying it?
27:30
So with with empathy, often what they do is watch somebody get hurt.
27:34
It's like a physical pain, empathy, and it, and then you're looking at
27:40
like, activation in the sort of somatic somatosensory areas and you know.
27:46
Similar.
27:46
Like you see somebody get hit with a ball or something and you
27:49
look for like the feeling of pain.
27:52
Yeah.
27:52
Rupert Isaacson: They get hit in the army.
27:53
Clutch your arm, right?
27:54
Dr. Chantel Prat:
27:54
Yeah.
27:55
Right.
27:55
And you I do, I definitely feel, yeah.
27:57
You know, that's why I, like, we have, I, I probably shouldn't talk about this,
28:01
but like we have a divide in my family about nut shot videos and whether or not
28:04
they're hysterical, I like feel it, I don't, obviously don't have testicles,
28:09
but like I feel the pain from those so viscerally that I can't, they're both
28:14
Rupert Isaacson: painful and funny.
28:15
I'd say that they're both right.
28:16
But my husband
28:16
Dr. Chantel Prat:
28:16
and my daughter think they're hysterical and will cry and just
28:19
watch like endless snapshot videos.
28:21
So I'm like, okay, is that something different about our mirror neurons?
28:25
Like, I don't know.
28:26
It certainly crosses gender.
28:27
So, I don't know what's going on there, but, but that's a very
28:30
specific kind of empathy, right?
28:32
So I, you know, to the extent that that generalizes to cognitive pain, you
28:37
know, to emotional pain I don't know.
28:39
But, but the, you know, when it comes to.
28:43
How we understand one another and how we understand our horses.
28:46
I think this is fascinating 'cause the, you know, the idea is that
28:50
mirror neurons is kind of a way of understanding through simulation, right?
28:54
Like, I watch you do an action, the part of my brain that would execute that action
28:59
activates and I think ow or whatever, you know, but I think this is why we're drawn
29:06
to brains that work like ours in the wild.
29:08
'cause this isn't mirror neurons are intuitive, instinctual.
29:11
It's, it's not learned.
29:13
It's why little kids cover their eyes and think they disappear.
29:17
You know?
29:18
This is our, the easiest way of understanding one another, I think.
29:25
And so.
29:26
If you and I have totally different wirings and I'm watching you behave,
29:32
and I'm simulating it, and I'm thinking, this is asinine, my brain is different.
29:37
So when my brain walks through, thumbs up, when my brain walks through, what
29:42
it would be doing in that case, and I have all these different priors and I
29:46
have all these different wirings, and I think that makes no sense whatsoever.
29:52
Then it's like stepping into shoes that are a different, you
29:54
know, walking a mile in someone's shoes that are a different size.
29:57
So that's where I think the, the more, what Paul Bloom, I think, wrote a book
30:02
called Against Empathy, a, a Case for Rational Compassion, where he talks
30:08
about understanding in this more what we call theory of mind way, which is a more
30:14
abstract clue based use the information to reverse engineer somebody else.
30:21
And I think that kind of theory of mind understanding is not as warm,
30:25
it's not as a effective effective, but it allows you, I think to
30:34
understand people who work differently.
30:39
Than you do, like you might and, and with the horses, I think it's
30:42
interesting to, to consider how much we're feeling with a horse and
30:47
getting it wrong because the horse has a different experience than we do.
30:50
Yeah.
30:51
Versus using the bits and of, you know, the bits we've learned
30:54
about how horses work to kind of rationalize what might be going
30:59
Rupert Isaacson: on just quickly, just to beat the, the
31:03
dead horse on mirror neurons.
31:05
Mm-hmm.
31:05
I, am I correct in, in thinking that a mirror neuron is not just a mirror
31:09
neuron that a mirror neuron does?
31:11
Lots of, might do other things, might have other jobs it does as well.
31:15
Of which the imitation
31:19
Dr. Chantel Prat:
31:19
right
31:20
Rupert Isaacson: thing, it's just one function, but they could
31:21
equally do other things as well?
31:24
Or is it dedicated?
31:27
Dr. Chantel Prat:
31:27
I don't know the answer to that.
31:28
So I think that I mean they have at least two jobs.
31:31
One would be executing the behavior in you.
31:33
Mm-hmm.
31:33
Like you don't only, so I guess maybe that answers your question, that
31:36
part of the brain in the monkeys is firing when they're trying to
31:39
grab a, a, a grape, whether they're seeing someone else do it or not.
31:43
So it is involved in social imitation and learning, but it has a, a
31:48
primary job in controlling your body.
31:50
Rupert Isaacson: So if we're involved in the sort of therapeutic writing end of
31:54
things, which obviously a lot of people listening to this show are what I presume
32:00
that trying to optimize people's mirror neuron development would be a useful
32:06
thing because it helps them to learn how to thrive in a confusing world by kind
32:16
of learning which behaviors to emulate.
32:18
Mm-hmm.
32:19
What's the best.
32:23
Advice that you would give to somebody working in Sayan equine assisted
32:28
field who wanted to help somebody optimize their mirror neurons?
32:34
Dr. Chantel Prat:
32:34
Do optimize them for other people or,
32:36
Rupert Isaacson: well, for both.
32:37
I mean, 'cause I should imagine cross species, if you are, if you talk
32:41
to a lot of autistic people, for example, they'll say, well, it does
32:44
feel like I'm dealing with another species when I'm dealing with you.
32:47
Mm-hmm.
32:48
So whether I'm dealing with a horse or whether I'm dealing with a
32:50
neurotypical human, whatever that is.
32:52
And then similarly for neurotypical humans, when they're dealing with
32:56
people on the spectrum, it can feel like dealing with, it can feel
32:59
like dealing with another species.
33:00
And this is where the communication breaks down.
33:03
So how can we help ourselves out neurologically Yeah.
33:09
As the practitioners so that we can help our, our, if you like, service users.
33:16
Dr. Chantel Prat:
33:16
Mm-hmm.
33:18
So my instinctive response is that.
33:22
To the best of my knowledge, and I will admit that I'm not an expert in this,
33:26
the mirror neuron system is pretty
33:29
I'm so hesitant to use the word innate, but I guess what I would say is I would
33:35
sca rather than trying to train the mirror neuron system per se, I would
33:39
be trying to train explicit behaviors.
33:42
Like if the mirror neuron system is working atypically, because this is
33:48
something you see in, in infants.
33:50
You see them imitating facial expressions.
33:52
You, this is something that's been milestones,
33:54
Rupert Isaacson: et cetera.
33:54
Those milestones are not happening, right?
33:56
Yeah.
33:56
Dr. Chantel Prat:
33:56
Right, right, right.
33:57
So, I mean, it, it, it's either been unfolding or not unfolding typically
34:02
up until the point of intervention.
34:04
So, you know, my, what I would be doing is making the things that
34:08
might be implicit to us explicit.
34:13
To the learner.
34:14
I think that that's a more tractable learning technique.
34:17
Right.
34:17
Put that in
34:18
Rupert Isaacson: terms that somebody walking around an arena with a
34:21
kid on a pony in Staffordshire
34:24
Dr. Chantel Prat:
34:24
mm-hmm.
34:24
Rupert Isaacson: On a Tuesday night.
34:26
Dr. Chantel Prat:
34:26
So you want them stand and
34:27
Rupert Isaacson: put into practice.
34:28
Dr. Chantel Prat:
34:28
So again, is, are we trying to get them to understand the
34:31
pony or the, the instructor?
34:35
Rupert Isaacson: That's a good question.
34:36
If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're considering
34:39
a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider
34:43
taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs.
34:47
Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original
34:54
Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and
35:00
developed in conjunction with Dr.
35:03
Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists.
35:06
We work in the saddle with younger children.
35:10
Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
35:15
It works incredibly well.
35:17
It's now in about 40 countries.
35:19
Check it out.
35:20
If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement
35:25
method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be
35:28
applied in schools, in homes.
35:30
If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
35:35
at home that will create neuroplasticity.
35:38
when they're not with you.
35:40
Finally, we have taquine equine integration.
35:43
If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
35:46
really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin
35:50
in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult.
35:55
So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
35:58
also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
36:03
And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
36:07
am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
36:10
need, as well as Serving my clients.
36:14
Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
36:18
absolutely gives you this.
36:20
Dr. Chantel Prat:
36:20
Because for the pony, like I would say, do you notice what his ears are doing?
36:23
Like, what do you think that means?
36:25
You know, and how about how does that look compared to this Pony's ears?
36:29
Like, you know, what can we learn from this?
36:31
And like with the instructor or with, you know, Billy, you could say like, you know.
36:36
When you said, Hey, shut up, or whatever just happened, like,
36:39
you know, what did you notice?
36:41
You know, you know, did you see this thing and you can like point out and now
36:46
Rupert Isaacson: what if, what if the per, that all sounds highly reasonable, and now
36:50
what if the person doesn't have the kind of brain that can receive information in
36:54
that way, sort of top down instruction.
36:56
Mm-hmm.
36:56
Mm-hmm.
36:56
So what if they're, what if they're like severely autistic or mm-hmm.
37:01
Away with the fairies in whatever way, and you want to help to bring them into
37:07
this type of empathetic cognition.
37:09
Mm.
37:09
So that, not so that they can be changed, but just so that they
37:13
don't get their ass kicked mm-hmm.
37:15
Too heavily by the world that they're in.
37:19
How could we, what, what, what are some things that spring to mind for you?
37:25
Dr. Chantel Prat:
37:25
So the thing that, to help kickstart that
37:27
Rupert Isaacson: process, theory of mind effectively.
37:29
Dr. Chantel Prat:
37:29
Yeah.
37:30
The thing that makes sense to me, based on my understanding of the
37:33
brains of people with autism is that you've got a, the thing that you want
37:38
them to learn about, you've gotta restrict distracting information.
37:41
So you would need to simplify the world to the extent that
37:45
you could make the learning item of interest the most salient.
37:51
So I hear you saying like, I'm on a horse and I, and my brain is not verbal,
37:56
or it's not programmable in this way.
37:58
And part of that is because you're the, you know, the things that they pay
38:04
attention to are not as predictable as the things that we pay attention to.
38:07
Like, you can you in a neurotypical, individual, you can, there are
38:12
certain things like social cues, like language, like faces that take
38:16
priority a lot of times over things that would be very salient for someone
38:21
with autism, like repeated motion.
38:23
Of course.
38:24
That's, you know, that's what we're working toward by, or like, machines,
38:27
anything that's predictable is something that might help attract their attention,
38:32
which is kind of the exact opposite of the noisy, chaotic human face and, and voice.
38:38
So I guess, and I'm sure people have done this because it seems obvious the,
38:45
the learning should be happening in a situation that is as free
38:51
from other kinds of distraction as possible to make the, the.
38:57
The cue, you know, so when I think of mirror neurons, I think of a match between
39:02
what you're seeing and what you're doing.
39:05
And to the extent that such a thing could be trained you would want
39:10
to just eliminate every, every other kind of as many other kinds
39:14
of distracting things as possible.
39:16
So I, I've, I've read about, for instance vocabulary development in autism.
39:22
And it's fascinating because, you know, in a typically developing brain, mom can take
39:26
a pen and go point to it and say, pen.
39:29
And there are all these, you're listening to mom's face, voice the point.
39:33
There are all these social cues that point you to this.
39:37
The attention on this object and, and a typically developing
39:41
kid with autism is like.
39:44
Listening to the finger, the butt, the way the socks feel, and the shoes,
39:47
like you might learn any amount of this sensory information might be capturing.
39:53
Right.
39:53
Your attention.
39:54
Rupert Isaacson: You know, it, it, it's really interesting when I was
39:57
first having to get involved in this 'cause I had to 'cause of my son.
40:01
There was,
40:05
and there still is a belief among some people that say
40:15
a wall with art on it or something like that would be too distracting.
40:19
Dr. Chantel Prat:
40:19
Mm.
40:20
Rupert Isaacson: And then, and so people would be working in these
40:24
really very sterile environments.
40:26
Mm-hmm.
40:27
White walls, frankly depressing.
40:30
Aesthetically.
40:31
Dr. Chantel Prat:
40:31
Yeah.
40:31
Yeah.
40:32
Rupert Isaacson: But I found of course, going out into nature.
40:34
With my
40:35
Dr. Chantel Prat:
40:35
kid.
40:35
Mm-hmm.
40:36
Rupert Isaacson: Opened everything up.
40:37
Dr. Chantel Prat:
40:37
Yes.
40:37
And that makes,
40:38
Rupert Isaacson: and there were multiple distractions, but those distractions
40:43
seemed to work for us, not against us.
40:45
Mm-hmm.
40:46
So my question with that is,
40:48
Dr. Chantel Prat:
40:48
oh, this is a good, this gives me a good idea.
40:49
Okay.
40:50
Keep going.
40:51
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
40:52
Is, is this is this because a, those distractions didn't have a
40:57
bad sensory effect because mm-hmm.
40:59
They're the distractions that our organism is set up for.
41:03
Mm-hmm.
41:03
I mm-hmm.
41:03
You know, the wind, the, the light, the trees or whatever.
41:05
Mm-hmm.
41:06
So therefore they're not really distractions.
41:08
Mm-hmm.
41:08
They're just sort of our habitat.
41:10
Mm-hmm.
41:11
And then do our brains that automatically respond better to those.
41:15
And then the other thing was, of course, it was all in, in movement.
41:18
And that brings me back to mm-hmm.
41:21
What you were saying earlier about with factories and, and schools.
41:25
The brain didn't evolve.
41:28
To learn and problem solve that way sitting still.
41:31
So I wanted, so I made a little note to myself, say, ask
41:34
about movement and the brain.
41:36
So nature movement.
41:37
Okay.
41:38
And then what I would do, of course was look for what seemed
41:42
to motivate him from the, that's
41:44
Dr. Chantel Prat:
41:44
exactly what I wrote, I wrote,
41:46
Rupert Isaacson: and then just go in that direction.
41:50
That's exactly right.
41:50
And the reason I did it though, mm-hmm.
41:52
Was not because I was intelligent.
41:54
The only reason I did it was because I'm not intelligent and because I know
42:00
that I'm not intelligent in that way.
42:03
I went for mentorship from Temple Grandin who told me to do that mm-hmm.
42:07
As an autistic person.
42:08
Mm-hmm.
42:09
So I, as a journalist went, well, she's autistic and she's successful, so she
42:13
must know what she's talking about.
42:14
So therefore I will do what she says because that just seems rational.
42:19
And I did and it worked.
42:20
Mm-hmm.
42:21
But I, yeah, I definitely found that following what other, what
42:25
sometimes behavioral therapists would've called distractions, I
42:29
found were not distractions at all.
42:30
Mm-hmm.
42:31
They were motivators.
42:32
Dr. Chantel Prat:
42:32
That's right.
42:33
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
42:33
That's right.
42:33
So, so what's going on with there, with the brain?
42:36
And
42:37
Dr. Chantel Prat:
42:37
so there's some, my gosh, like there is a person here at UW called, his
42:42
name is Gregory Bratman, and there's a team that are studying nature wellness
42:46
interactions and in so many different ways sort of nature and mental health.
42:52
And like the first thing that I thought about when you were talking
42:54
about walls with no art and versus nature is this idea of soft.
43:01
One of the things that seems to be true is that when we are in nature,
43:04
we are inherently softer in our focus.
43:07
We are more like the horses, right?
43:09
Mm-hmm.
43:10
Like we have this wide picture, and I do think that that's very settling.
43:15
It's restorative.
43:17
Mm, for the nervous system, right?
43:20
Because we also have something called like attentional fatigue.
43:22
And I think, you know, as you were talking about the white walls and, and
43:26
things like this, I thought, okay, what is, how do you get from distracting
43:32
to like stressful amount of pressure in one area, which will then fatigue
43:37
your brain and your nervous system?
43:40
And I think this kind of soft focus which you also get, we know
43:44
this is true from moving, right?
43:46
You, the rhythm, rhythm of walking relaxes the nervous system and it opens
43:52
up creativity and opens up like the ability to think and reason and learn.
43:59
So that's the first thing is that this is, is that the, the way we
44:02
focus in nature, we need to be aware, we need to be alert, we need to know
44:05
where we're putting our feet, which is kind of cool and interesting.
44:08
But the, we're not necessarily hyper-focused on something
44:12
that will fatigue the brain.
44:14
We have a, a, a kind of broader awareness, which seems to be from
44:19
a mental health point, restorative.
44:21
And you're right, that's, that's how we are meant.
44:24
We, we are animals.
44:27
And that is how we are meant to exist.
44:30
It is, and I think it's in this space of normal value what's good and what's bad.
44:37
I, I worry so much about how removed we are from how, how many things
44:43
that we think are bad about our brains that are just absolutely the
44:48
way that we are designed to exist.
44:51
Our brains have not.
44:53
Evolved nearly as fast as our society.
44:56
The pressures that our society has put on them have
44:59
Rupert Isaacson: what?
44:59
What do we think is bad about our brains that, that we could be wrong about?
45:03
I think
45:03
Dr. Chantel Prat:
45:03
a attention is the biggest thing.
45:05
Like, you know, my students like, and I think that this is a great, I also wanna
45:08
talk about your, your question about do we think we've diversity is accepted or not?
45:13
I think it depends.
45:14
Attention is a huge thing.
45:16
Like many, many people, like you're, you are saying I'm not intelligent, but
45:19
I think that's because you have a very specific idea of intelligence that's like
45:23
sitting in front of books like I am right now and digesting things and, you know,
45:28
and remembering them when they have like, no tangible purpose in your real life.
45:33
Or like, you know, how, how well did you absorb numbers on the chalkboard when
45:37
someone gave it to you without a context?
45:39
And, and when it comes to, I just think that there's a very straightforward way
45:44
that your brain defines intelligence.
45:45
Your brain defines intelligence as learning the things that will
45:48
move you through the world and help you find good things, period.
45:51
Right.
45:52
And so having the ability to like undergo six hours of class a day
45:57
for 25 years of your life before you finally get a job where you make money
46:02
and can then buy the good things is like not, that's not very natural.
46:06
That's a lot of delayed gratification.
46:08
Right.
46:09
So, I'm completely, I'm, I am, I'm thinking about nature.
46:14
What, what did you ask me?
46:15
What's it, the brain, well, well,
46:16
Rupert Isaacson: that you talked about attention.
46:17
So, yeah.
46:18
Attention.
46:19
Dr. Chantel Prat:
46:19
So a lot of people feel they hate, like I I, at the beginning of this class, I
46:23
would hear my students saying, I hate.
46:27
A DHD.
46:27
Do you know how many of my, like in my students, I'm at the University of
46:30
Washington, it's widely considered one of the 10 bus public schools in the world.
46:35
Mm-hmm.
46:36
I think that could be changing, but and so these students are at
46:39
the top of what society would call high functioning intellectual.
46:43
And I probably have about 25% of the students in my class, this
46:48
upper division, like neuroscience class with diagnoses of A DHD.
46:53
And I think there's something in that, right?
46:55
So either we can say, and, and if you look at incidents of A DHD,
46:59
it really depends on the country.
47:01
It depends on the time period.
47:03
It, it could be something that's increasing because of,
47:07
you know, digital stimulation.
47:09
It could be something that's di being more widely diagnosed because of awareness.
47:15
But the fact is that one in four.
47:18
Students have this diagnosis means that it's not rare, it's not atypical,
47:24
and it also means it can't be bad
47:26
Rupert Isaacson: of a thing.
47:26
Right.
47:26
Otherwise it can't that, that bad of a thing getting into
47:29
University of Washington.
47:30
Dr. Chantel Prat:
47:30
Exactly.
47:31
Exactly.
47:32
And in some ways but, but, but the students will say, I hate that.
47:36
And then I say, okay, well let's talk about the opposite.
47:39
Do they say why
47:40
Rupert Isaacson: they hate it, by the way?
47:41
Dr. Chantel Prat:
47:41
I think they hate, well, they, they will say like, I don't know why I
47:46
can't be motivated to sit and do something for a long period of time.
47:50
Okay.
47:50
Or how, or or that I then get hyper.
47:54
You know, they're aware that they also get hyper-focused and like
47:57
down a rabbit hole for something that they say like wasn't important.
48:01
And so one of the things that we've learned in my class is like, when
48:04
you are, you know, what widely.
48:07
In both this kind of economical world and in the classroom, what's widely considered
48:13
valuable or good is the ability to pay attention according to some goal, right?
48:17
Like I am, I'm telling you, pay attention to what I'm saying.
48:21
'cause we're on a podcast right now and that means whatever, or you know,
48:25
I'm telling you, pay attention to your homework or I'm telling you, pay attention
48:28
to dropping your heels or whatever, right?
48:31
And the ability to, but like.
48:34
When people are paying, paying attention first, it's expensive for everyone.
48:38
That's why it's called freaking paying attention.
48:40
It uses the frontal globes.
48:42
When you're paying attention, what you're actually doing is you are
48:45
overriding everything you've learned from trial and error experience.
48:49
Oh, that's interesting.
48:49
Okay.
48:49
So like everything you've learned about how to stay alive,
48:51
how to find the good things.
48:53
Mm-hmm.
48:53
You can override that to now focus on a specific piece of the world
48:58
and ignore the other pieces of the
48:59
Rupert Isaacson: world.
49:00
Mm-hmm.
49:00
For a specific outcome.
49:02
Right.
49:02
For
49:02
Dr. Chantel Prat:
49:02
a specific outcome.
49:04
It, it costs a lot from an energetic perspective and you are literally
49:08
distorting the world as it is, and you are less likely to see
49:11
something that you're not expecting.
49:15
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
49:15
Dr. Chantel Prat:
49:15
So, you know, if you don't have someone with a DHD in your, a hunter gatherer
49:18
group and you happen upon a cave with eyeballs popping out of it, you're dead.
49:24
Yeah.
49:25
You're over here counting blueberries like you're supposed to and see how
49:28
many are in the basket or whatever, and.
49:30
You're not even seeing the eyeballs in that cave.
49:33
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, absolutely.
49:35
And that, that's always been my thought about a DHD is that, you
49:38
know, having, having lived with hunter gatherers you can see how the human
49:42
brain has to be able to operate in effectively multiple parallel universes.
49:51
Correct.
49:51
And at the same time hyperfocus.
49:54
Mm-hmm.
49:54
And at the same time allow itself to be distracted.
49:59
Dr. Chantel Prat:
49:59
And isn't it convenient if you have different people who are
50:01
good at those things and can communicate with one another?
50:04
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
50:05
Right.
50:05
So you can defer to, you are better at the blueberries than I am.
50:09
So when it comes to blueberries, I'm deferring to Chantal.
50:12
So then maybe I can give Chantal the chance to go down the blueberry rabbit
50:17
hole because we'll benefit from that.
50:18
And I'll watch out for bears.
50:21
While she's doing that because she knows more about blueberries than I do.
50:25
When it comes time to do the thing that I'm good at, she'll do the
50:28
same, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
50:29
But, and then, you know, the, the need to change on a dime and pivot.
50:33
Mm-hmm.
50:34
So if you're hunting conditions change like that, the wind changes or the animal
50:39
hunts you back, or you realize mm-hmm.
50:40
Another animal was hunting you while you're hunting or whatever it is.
50:44
And so if you can't then pivot very, very fast, well you can't get food.
50:50
So, you, one I've often wondered when people talked about A DHD,
50:54
like, is, does a DHD, why is there a deal on the end of it?
50:58
Why is it a disorder and a deficit?
51:00
Mm-hmm.
51:00
So it's only a disorder and a deficit, presumably if it no
51:03
longer fits the economic model.
51:05
So That's right.
51:06
Yeah.
51:06
And in
51:06
Dr. Chantel Prat:
51:06
fact, the diagnostic criteria, I talk about this from time to time because
51:10
I study attention and attentional differences in the lab, and there are
51:14
a number of tests you can do about distractibility focus goal, you know,
51:18
orienting all the, you can break it into a million different boring tasks.
51:22
There's no criteria.
51:23
There's no, if you get this score, you have a DHD.
51:25
It is not, that's not how you get diagnosed.
51:27
You get diagnosed
51:28
Rupert Isaacson: objective.
51:29
Dr. Chantel Prat:
51:29
It's if you, yeah.
51:29
Is this, is this impairing your ability at home work or whatever.
51:33
Right.
51:33
In context.
51:35
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
51:35
Dr. Chantel Prat:
51:35
So that's about functionality.
51:36
It's not about typicality.
51:38
Rupert Isaacson: Well, right.
51:39
And then that depends on what's being valued at home, presumably.
51:41
Correct.
51:42
So if, if the home culture is that, I as an 8-year-old boy should
51:48
Dr. Chantel Prat:
51:48
sit, still
51:49
Rupert Isaacson: behave like a Philadelphia lawyer.
51:52
Yes.
51:53
You know.
51:55
There might be a small percentage of boys that can do that at eight.
51:59
Dr. Chantel Prat:
51:59
Mm-hmm.
52:00
Rupert Isaacson: But if you're not one of them,
52:03
Dr. Chantel Prat:
52:03
then you start to feel like there's something wrong with a dysfunction.
52:06
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
52:06
Then it means that we've gotten very narrow in
52:09
Dr. Chantel Prat:
52:09
mm-hmm.
52:10
Rupert Isaacson: What we perceive as an economically viable thing, right?
52:13
Yes.
52:14
Dr. Chantel Prat:
52:14
Yeah.
52:15
Rupert Isaacson: Instead of, yeah.
52:15
So diversity, you talk about diversity and one and one, one thinks about
52:19
it as diversity of people, diversity of brain types, but there's also
52:22
diversity of economics, right?
52:23
Surely Yes.
52:24
You know, we need multiple skill sets, people with multiple correct.
52:28
Skill sets.
52:29
Yeah.
52:29
Dr. Chantel Prat:
52:29
And, and, and Temple Grandin is big about she is so, you
52:34
know, tuned into that as well.
52:36
And like, we're under training for really important skill sets when we had dinner.
52:41
Two weeks ago she said that her new passion is going around looking at
52:45
all the certificates everywhere in the world that have not been checked,
52:48
like the elevator certificates.
52:50
Yes, she does.
52:52
And I was like, I don't like elevators to start with.
52:54
You're not helping me at all.
52:56
She's like, they're everywhere like you.
52:58
She came, she
52:58
Rupert Isaacson: came and spoke at the conference that we did in September, and
53:00
she, the first thing out of her mouth when she got on the floor, she says, I just
53:03
checked the elevator coming up here and it's out of date by, and we're like, okay.
53:08
All using the stairs.
53:11
Dr. Chantel Prat:
53:11
Yeah.
53:11
Yeah.
53:11
Comforting.
53:12
Comforting.
53:12
But hey, awareness is, is key
53:14
Rupert Isaacson: indeed.
53:15
What part of the brain, just quickly about attention, what part or parts
53:20
of the brain govern attention?
53:22
Hmm.
53:24
Dr. Chantel Prat:
53:24
So I would say the attention is a, an interaction between the frontal lo?
53:29
Well, it depends on the kind, right?
53:30
So there's natural, or I call it organic attention.
53:34
Some people call it distractible.
53:35
But I love it because squirrel is, you know, that's the kind
53:39
of prototypical distractibility.
53:41
But hey man, squirrel is an organic attention.
53:43
That's thing.
53:43
Well, squirrel is
53:44
Rupert Isaacson: also edible.
53:45
Dr. Chantel Prat:
53:45
Yeah, right.
53:46
I mean, why wouldn't, I mean, you know, that's why wouldn't I look at
53:47
Rupert Isaacson: sport?
53:48
I might be able to eat it in a hunter gatherer context.
53:50
Dr. Chantel Prat:
53:50
Yeah.
53:51
Or you might be able to make friends with it here.
53:52
Theyre, or maybe it's going quite aggressive.
53:54
Steelers of lunches might be your competition.
53:58
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
53:59
Dr. Chantel Prat:
53:59
So there's two things.
54:00
One is that you have a frontal lobe that holds the goal in
54:03
mind if you're paying attention.
54:05
And two is that you have these basal ganglia, which are my favorite parts
54:09
of the brain, which are the the dopamine rich reward centers that
54:14
learn based on previous experiences, where to find the good things.
54:17
Now, the basal gang, my husband has a, a, a really cool computational model
54:22
about this called conditional signal routing, which by the way, we found was
54:27
working quite differently in autism.
54:29
And the idea is that when you have a goal, the frontal lobe can help change
54:34
the rules for what good looks like, right?
54:38
So like if you know, you know, ice cream is good and so, and you feel hungry
54:44
and there's ice cream, you're like, this is a high probability reward.
54:49
But if you're like.
54:51
Energized enough to hold in mind that you wanna live to be 100 and that
54:56
you haven't eaten any vegetables.
54:59
The frontal lobe can tell the basal ganglia, Hey, like right now, actually
55:02
fiber, things that grew from the planet are good in a, like, in a
55:07
way that aligns with these goals.
55:09
And you can, and you can make a different decision.
55:11
Rupert Isaacson: So it's, so is your basal ganglia, your impulse and your
55:15
prefrontal cortex, what you're talking about there, that that could override that
55:18
impulse for kinda to change what's good?
55:21
Dr. Chantel Prat:
55:21
Mm-hmm.
55:21
Kind of.
55:22
I think that basal ganglia are a lot smarter than just impulse.
55:25
I think they're at any, given the frontal lobe gets all of this, I think
55:29
of the frontal lobe, like the CEO that gets all of this credit for making
55:32
decisions, but the basal ganglia are already filtering behind the scenes
55:35
based on your previous experiences to say this information is pretty particularly
55:39
important for making your decision.
55:41
Rupert Isaacson: Where are they located?
55:42
The basal ganglia right
55:43
Dr. Chantel Prat:
55:43
in the middle of the brain.
55:44
Rupert Isaacson: Why are they called ganglia?
55:45
Right.
55:46
Dr. Chantel Prat:
55:46
I don't know.
55:47
I think that means multiple.
55:48
They, yes.
55:49
I think I would imagine them like,
55:51
Rupert Isaacson: like octopus alien,
55:53
Dr. Chantel Prat:
55:53
we had a, we had Halloween costume
55:55
Rupert Isaacson: type.
55:56
Yeah.
55:56
With Dangly
55:58
Dr. Chantel Prat:
55:58
Dang things.
56:00
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
56:01
Dr. Chantel Prat:
56:01
We had a Halloween costume collective.
56:03
We were called the Basil Gang.
56:06
I think it means multiple ganglion.
56:09
I think it's a thing, but I don't honestly know.
56:12
And then there's this, so it seems also within this frontal and then
56:17
in inner basal ganglia system, there's also a left and right.
56:21
Ideas, and I think this is super interesting.
56:23
The left seems to be more goal focused and predicting the future, whereas
56:28
the right seems to be more focused on the now and noticing abnormalities or
56:33
things that move and so forth and so on.
56:35
So, for instance, there's a, a disorder called the visual neglect
56:40
or hemis hemifield neglect.
56:42
If you get damage in the in the right hemisphere, the left hemisphere can still
56:47
kind of like figure out what's going on.
56:49
But if you miss the noticing hemisphere, you might just like
56:52
ignore an entire half of your body.
56:55
So there's this different kinds of awareness in the two hemispheres,
56:59
which is quite interesting.
57:00
And if you have people bisect a line, so we did this in my class, just give a, give
57:05
people a bunch of lines and have 'em draw a a line where you think the middle is.
57:11
You can get and, and then measure how close you are to center.
57:15
You can get some idea of whether you have this more or you know, if your
57:19
right hemisphere, if your right, if the line is to the left of center,
57:24
it means that your left hemisphere is driving your noticing more.
57:27
And if the line is to the right, you can, you can say that you
57:31
have like a more organic brain.
57:33
So a DHD people are more, are more driven by the right side.
57:38
Okay.
57:39
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
57:39
And we live in a bit of a left brain society, so therefore Yeah.
57:43
Therefore they've, it's a disorder suddenly.
57:45
Dr. Chantel Prat:
57:45
Right.
57:46
Whereas, but it,
57:47
Rupert Isaacson: in another culture it would be a, a a, an asset.
57:50
Dr. Chantel Prat:
57:50
Right.
57:51
Exactly.
57:51
And I think that that applies to a lot of different skill sets and a lot of
57:55
different ways of being that we're, you know, sort of under appreciating.
57:59
And you know, going back to your question about I.
58:04
The first question, which I feel like I never fully answered about, are we, where
58:07
are we at in the acceptance of diversity?
58:10
I love that neurodiversity is searched for four times more frequently on
58:16
Google now than five years ago.
58:18
I, I think that there is a general awareness that probably one in
58:22
five people have some kind of, what, what will be diagnosable
58:27
as atypical brain organization.
58:30
And I love, you know, these stickers that say neuros spicy and this kind
58:34
of acknowledgement that I think that there is a general increase of awareness
58:40
and a general increase in people claiming that they're neurodiverse,
58:43
you know, like making it public.
58:44
Having the neuro spicy sticker.
58:47
And understanding that this is not a personality deficit, this is just
58:51
the way my brain works, is kind of a claiming, stepping into that recognition.
58:57
However, I think there's work to do, number one, I think that, that, that
59:01
understanding that this is not like a personal weakness or a deficit,
59:05
this is just the way my brain works.
59:08
I think that there's room for that in the typically developing population as well.
59:11
I think, like I said with my students, people who hate, don't
59:14
understand why they're distractible, don't understand why they're not
59:17
motivated to do boring things, don't understand why they forget forgetting.
59:21
This is important for learning as remembering.
59:23
Like I just think there are a lot of things about our brain designs
59:26
that we really, that we perceive as character flaws because of
59:31
this kind of societal value of a particular thing that's very abnormal.
59:37
And I think there are certain.
59:42
Labels that are more popular than others, like a DHD is so metal and rock and roll
59:47
and yeah, I'm neuros spicy, but like when I talk to people who are on, who
59:51
have autism spectrum disorder, many of them don't wanna be the person on that
59:56
panel or don't want their employers to know about it and are worried about
1:00:00
being stigmatized and are worried, you know, so like, it, it's, I don't think
1:00:04
we're there yet when there's like a cool disorder and a not cool disorder.
1:00:09
And, and again, I think that nor I just think the work comes to
1:00:14
it with normalizing differences.
1:00:17
We're all different and people with.
1:00:20
Asper or an autism spectrum disorder label are just as different from
1:00:24
one another as people without it.
1:00:26
Like, you know, so assuming that that per that label lets, you know,
1:00:29
oh, I'm gonna, I don't know, like people make very weird assumptions.
1:00:34
And when they want me to talk about neurodiversity in the workplace, they
1:00:36
want me to say something like, eye contact is aggressive or like that.
1:00:40
It doesn't, it's not true for everybody.
1:00:42
Or like, not everybody thinks in pictures, not everybody.
1:00:44
This, you know, there's, there's diversity within and, and between these labels.
1:00:50
So I think normalizing differences and rethinking about deficits as of
1:00:55
just a mismatch between the thing that we're asking our brain to
1:00:58
do and what our brain is good at.
1:00:59
And to your point, strength building, working with the nature
1:01:06
of our brains, working with the things that we're passionate about.
1:01:08
'cause literally no one.
1:01:10
It gets lit up by doing boring things no one does.
1:01:15
And that takes us back to curiosity.
1:01:16
Do you know that when your brain feels curious?
1:01:19
It is.
1:01:21
First of all, it requires safety.
1:01:23
You cannot feel curious when you're not safe.
1:01:26
And when your brain feels curious, it emits dopamine in anticipation
1:01:31
of an information rewarding.
1:01:32
The same interesting basal ganglia that looks for food.
1:01:36
Treats the human brain treats information as a reward when it's
1:01:40
something you're curious about.
1:01:42
And when that dopamine comes online, it's dopamine is something that is not actually
1:01:48
for reward, it's for motivating learning.
1:01:51
So it motivates you to work and it re, your brain gets rewired more quickly.
1:01:57
So I guess like when you started talking about your son and then you
1:02:00
said you worked with what motivates him?
1:02:03
My second answer to that person who's got a kid on a pony is
1:02:07
learn about that kid's what?
1:02:09
Lights them up and put it into that.
1:02:12
We, there's, so there's a study that was actually done in, I think it was
1:02:17
Nigeria that's so brilliant and so easy.
1:02:21
They were teaching kids math and they gave them, and this was like
1:02:24
secondary school math, and they gave them a 10 minute interest survey.
1:02:29
Where do you like to shop?
1:02:31
What do you buy?
1:02:32
Who are your friends?
1:02:33
What's your name?
1:02:34
And then they did this math instruction where they personalize
1:02:38
the problems or, so yeah, Rupert went to the store to buy whiskey.
1:02:44
IPA.
1:02:45
Yeah, there you go.
1:02:46
An IPA and and you know, and then you do the math in that.
1:02:50
And of course you, and I know this because we're parents the kids who had a a, the
1:02:56
math wasn't taught differently at all.
1:02:57
It was just taught in a context that the kid cared about, which meant that
1:03:01
you get curiosity kind of by periphery.
1:03:05
Sure.
1:03:05
And they learned more.
1:03:07
And so this is like, in my writer's group, I had a friend tell me, you're like one of
1:03:10
those moms who puts vegetables in dessert.
1:03:13
'cause I'm curious about the brain and I don't wanna be.
1:03:15
I'm like, yes.
1:03:16
That's the secret sauce.
1:03:18
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting.
1:03:19
We have a whole thing within horse boy method of movement method of, of before.
1:03:24
We see someone trying to, as you say, get as much info as we can.
1:03:28
Mm-hmm.
1:03:28
And we want to know all the motivators we want to know Yeah.
1:03:31
If they're into Pokemon, well, what aspect of Pokemon, you know?
1:03:34
Yeah, yeah.
1:03:34
Who are the characters?
1:03:35
What are the, you know, and we'll, we'll tailor it all around that.
1:03:38
Yes.
1:03:38
Yeah.
1:03:39
But also what, what do they hate?
1:03:40
Yeah.
1:03:41
And we find that that's as important too, so, oh yeah.
1:03:43
That's sensory, right?
1:03:45
So mm-hmm.
1:03:45
They hate this sense, so we're gonna great these things, we can, that's back, perhaps
1:03:49
back to your point about distraction.
1:03:51
Mm-hmm.
1:03:51
We can then try to eliminate as much as possible those smells, those
1:03:55
noises, those characters, those types of things from the environment that
1:03:59
we are gonna work in, so that mm-hmm.
1:04:01
And if we then maximize the things that are the motivators, well then
1:04:04
presumably we've got a better chance.
1:04:07
But one thing I, I often see with in the therapy world, sadly, is
1:04:12
a lack of curiosity and mm-hmm.
1:04:16
I think within the horse world, this can be particularly endemic, sadly.
1:04:20
Mm-hmm.
1:04:21
That we horsey people are quite bossy and quite opinionated.
1:04:24
Mm-hmm.
1:04:25
And we don't like change.
1:04:26
Mm-hmm.
1:04:27
So we hate admitting that maybe we need to rethink something or,
1:04:32
you know, we'll usually dial on nail of how we've always done it.
1:04:35
Mm-hmm.
1:04:35
And obviously that's not massively helpful when we are dealing with our horses.
1:04:40
It tends to make us stuck.
1:04:42
But of course, if we're then trying to take a therapeutic approach, that
1:04:46
lack of curiosity is going to shoot us in the foot fairly massively.
1:04:50
Mm-hmm.
1:04:51
Mm-hmm.
1:04:51
Presumably that lack of curiosity can't be really endemic because
1:04:58
humans are curious apes.
1:05:00
Mm-hmm.
1:05:00
So here's a question.
1:05:02
Do we have curiosity trained out of us?
1:05:05
Mm-hmm.
1:05:05
And can we retrain it?
1:05:06
Yes.
1:05:07
And what part of the brain do we need to target for that?
1:05:10
And how?
1:05:11
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:05:11
Mm.
1:05:13
So.
1:05:14
There are sort of state and trait differences in curiosity.
1:05:17
Some people are more curious by nature than others and there
1:05:21
are also different kinds of curiosity or perceptual curiosity.
1:05:23
People who wanna feel things.
1:05:25
Mm-hmm.
1:05:26
And epistemic curiosity, which blows my mind.
1:05:29
It's, it's strange as much as it's true of me, that people wanna know things, wanna
1:05:34
know that jellyfish could essentially be eternal 'cause they can like go, you know,
1:05:38
go back a stage developmentally, it's like, how will that ever help me in life?
1:05:42
But it's so fascinating, you know,
1:05:44
Rupert Isaacson: because it makes you optimistic.
1:05:46
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:05:46
Yeah.
1:05:46
You're like, oh, somebody can do it makes you, it generally, generally optimistic,
1:05:49
Rupert Isaacson: which means you assume better outcomes, which
1:05:51
means you probably will get them
1:05:53
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:05:53
right.
1:05:53
And so there in the jellyfish example you have highlighted, where curiosity,
1:05:59
like where does it come from and can we, is it trained out of us?
1:06:02
Absolutely.
1:06:03
Yes.
1:06:03
I think, and depending on the discipline, sometimes it's very explicit.
1:06:07
Like, don't ask questions, do what I say.
1:06:10
And, but we, I think we know the recipe.
1:06:12
I think there's a pretty good recipe for curiosity.
1:06:15
And and my favorite is a model by Gruber and Ranana Char.
1:06:21
Char and Ranana was one of my professors in grad school, and
1:06:24
it's called the PACE Model.
1:06:26
So it's easy, PACE.
1:06:28
So number one is predict.
1:06:30
So, if you think you know the answer, if you think you know what's right,
1:06:36
you're not going to be curious.
1:06:38
Right?
1:06:39
It's, and that's like to that point of we get stuck in mm-hmm.
1:06:42
In habits.
1:06:43
If something surprises us if something doesn't go as planned or we find
1:06:47
ourself in a new situation, that's where we have the first opening.
1:06:52
That's where I think, like for me, like humility about what I don't
1:06:55
know, keeps me like always curious.
1:06:58
So, so prediction, failure is the first trigger.
1:07:01
It needs to be something you don't know everything about.
1:07:03
But also if it's something you know nothing about, you're probably
1:07:06
also not curious 'cause you're trying to make connections.
1:07:09
You know, you wanna integrate everything, everything into your knowledge of
1:07:13
the world and your place in it.
1:07:15
Then the, the important part, I think is the assessment number two, am I safe?
1:07:21
You know, and if you're a hunter gatherer and you find something unexpected, if
1:07:26
you make a wrong turn on Google and you find yourself in the wrong place,
1:07:30
if you're in a situation and your conversation is not going as planned,
1:07:35
the question is, am I physically safe?
1:07:37
Am I psychologically safe?
1:07:38
And I think this is something that corporations haven't been
1:07:40
spending enough time with when it's like, best answer, right?
1:07:43
This, you know, it's like in order to make people feel curious, it's not like, be
1:07:48
curious and be the best or you're fired.
1:07:50
Like, that just doesn't, you know, that kind of like environment
1:07:54
does not promote curiosity.
1:07:55
So in the training out of curiosity, it's like how do we treat answers that
1:07:59
are different than what we wanted?
1:08:02
Are we like, no, that's not right.
1:08:04
Are we focusing on deficits or are we like, oh, tell me what, you know,
1:08:07
what made you think about that?
1:08:08
Like, where did that come from?
1:08:09
What do you know that led you to that answer?
1:08:12
So psychological and physical safety are precursors.
1:08:17
You need to ha be in a place that you can't predict.
1:08:19
You need to think.
1:08:20
You don't know the answer.
1:08:21
You need to feel safe.
1:08:24
And then once, once your brain has sort of, gone through those two
1:08:29
steps, you experience curiosity.
1:08:31
And the point of curiosity is to motivate exploration.
1:08:35
That's the E.
1:08:36
So curiosity, explore.
1:08:38
And what's beautiful about this is you know, I would say these first
1:08:43
two predict and assess are what, what my trainer, Gabby Nora, who I love,
1:08:48
calls getting your horse or yourself into the learning frame of mind.
1:08:51
I.
1:08:53
You know, they've got, and I think it's true of your, of your kids, your
1:08:56
students, you want to do the work first before you do anything to get
1:09:01
them into the learning frame of mind.
1:09:02
They've gotta feel safe, they've gotta feel engaged,
1:09:05
Rupert Isaacson: gotta build relationship.
1:09:06
The environment's gotta be right.
1:09:07
Yeah.
1:09:08
Yeah.
1:09:08
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:09:08
Yep.
1:09:08
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:09:09
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:09:09
And then you have this curious learner who will learn, who
1:09:13
will the rewire more period.
1:09:17
Like if I gave you 10 questions, I asked you trivia questions
1:09:21
and I asked you, which are you the most interested in learning?
1:09:24
And then I gave you the answers to the all 10.
1:09:26
You will learn, you'll remember the ones that you were most curious to
1:09:29
learn better because your basal ganglia has said, this is interesting to me.
1:09:34
This is an information reward and it's predicting a reward.
1:09:38
It's motivating you then like, one of my favorite studies actually had people risk
1:09:43
electrical shock to learn a magic trick.
1:09:46
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.
1:09:47
Because there is, I would do that.
1:09:48
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:09:48
Yeah, exactly.
1:09:49
So would I, and there is this aspect of curiosity where it is
1:09:52
potentially dangerous, right?
1:09:54
When, when you're in the unknown, and especially with perceptual curiosity and
1:09:58
trying drugs and things like this, right?
1:09:59
It's like there's often a risk reward benefit.
1:10:03
And when we're curious, we're super motivated to find
1:10:06
information and we'll do work.
1:10:07
Well, we also know
1:10:07
Rupert Isaacson: that, that we can't avoid risk.
1:10:09
So we need to, like, if you hunt and gather, it's risky, right?
1:10:13
So right.
1:10:14
Being on planet earth is risky.
1:10:16
So we need to dance with risk.
1:10:18
We need,
1:10:18
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:10:18
right?
1:10:19
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:10:20
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:10:20
Right.
1:10:20
And so that, that curiosity in this, in this in this study, the
1:10:24
more curious they were to learn the magic trick, the more likely they
1:10:27
were to take a risk to get a shock.
1:10:29
Like, okay, it's a 20% risk.
1:10:31
Okay, it's a 40% risk.
1:10:32
Like when do you say.
1:10:34
How, no, I don't really care about the magic trick that much.
1:10:37
Right?
1:10:37
But what was inter, but that basal ganglia, that filtering part of the
1:10:41
brain that's sending information to the frontal lobe that I said
1:10:44
is smarter than just impulse.
1:10:46
Rupert Isaacson: Right?
1:10:46
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:10:46
When people took a risk for a electric shock, the basal ganglia turned down the
1:10:52
volume on the part of your brain that might simulate what the shock feels like.
1:10:56
It turned down connectivity to the hand.
1:10:59
Rupert Isaacson: The basal ganglia has that power.
1:11:02
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:11:02
Yes.
1:11:02
It has inputs from everywhere in the brain and then it sends repetitive
1:11:06
things to the frontal lobe.
1:11:07
It turns up or turns down the world.
1:11:10
That's the kind of filtering.
1:11:12
Interesting.
1:11:12
So, so when it's like, no, we really wanna know this, like I think that this magic
1:11:17
trick is really important and we're not gonna think about what the shop would
1:11:20
feel like when you make this decision.
1:11:22
So.
1:11:23
You know, it's, I mean, it's a major motivator.
1:11:26
So in your learners, I think and, and of course like, you know, back to
1:11:30
our idea about what's gone wrong in schools and what goes wrong in horse
1:11:35
training, I think all the time too.
1:11:37
It's like, if you make this thing feel incompetent, wrong, threatened,
1:11:43
if you, you know, if a, if a, if one of those eight year olds who doesn't
1:11:47
wanna sit still and be like, behave like a lawyer already thinks there's
1:11:51
something wrong with them, they already feel threat in these environments,
1:11:57
Rupert Isaacson: right?
1:11:57
We
1:11:57
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:11:57
have, we've, we've already shut down the curiosity that makes learning not
1:12:01
only fun, you know, I think to your specialty, I think something that
1:12:06
is like completely overlooked is.
1:12:10
We're meant to learn to find the good things.
1:12:13
And like learning has taken on this serious, you know, whether it's learning
1:12:17
to ride horses or learning to do math, it's taken on this serious reputation,
1:12:22
which is in and of itself antithetical to how we were designed to learn.
1:12:25
We are designed to learn.
1:12:27
Learning is supposed to be fun.
1:12:28
We're supposed to like, the fact that we feel excited about something
1:12:31
is our brain's way of saying, we think this is gonna be useful.
1:12:34
We think this is gonna be interesting, we think this is gonna be important.
1:12:37
And so everything else created equally.
1:12:40
Something you do to make learning fun will also make it more effective.
1:12:46
Rupert Isaacson: If you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
1:12:50
I'm guessing you are, then you've probably also always wondered a little
1:12:55
bit about the old master system.
1:12:57
of dressage training.
1:12:59
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
1:13:07
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
1:13:13
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
1:13:20
well being of the horse and the rider.
1:13:23
Intrigued?
1:13:24
Like to know more?
1:13:26
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
1:13:30
Check out the free introduction course.
1:13:32
Take it from there.
1:13:33
Talk to us about the relationship of movement with this and
1:13:38
Neurotrophins, BDNF and so on.
1:13:42
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:13:42
This is a little bit farther out of my area of expertise, but I do know that
1:13:47
we evolve to solve problems on the go.
1:13:50
Right.
1:13:51
So moving the body, again is something that regulates the nervous system and puts
1:13:55
us into a state of alertness that helps us focus on what it is we're learning.
1:14:02
The challenge then becomes presenting information while walking or presenting
1:14:10
information, and then going to move through the world to cogniti.
1:14:13
Well, what's
1:14:13
Rupert Isaacson: interesting with that is, is so for example, the
1:14:16
two other languages that I sort of speak are French and German.
1:14:19
I learned them on horseback.
1:14:21
So I'm balancing, I'm problem solving.
1:14:23
That makes
1:14:24
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:14:24
perfect sense.
1:14:24
Got
1:14:24
Rupert Isaacson: the, yeah.
1:14:24
The BDNF is going the, that brain derive neurotrophic factor thing.
1:14:28
But also I'm motivated to be there.
1:14:29
Yes, I wanna be on the horse, right?
1:14:31
And I'm motivated to learn this vocabulary about horses because I'm
1:14:34
just intrinsically interested in it.
1:14:36
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:14:36
Right?
1:14:36
Rupert Isaacson: If I was,
1:14:37
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:14:37
that's right.
1:14:37
If
1:14:37
Rupert Isaacson: I was a cooking guy, I'd wanna be moving around a kitchen, right?
1:14:40
Mm-hmm.
1:14:41
Learning the same thing.
1:14:42
But it seems to me that movement.
1:14:45
You, you, you've talked a lot about the difficulties of sitting
1:14:48
still in a DHD and mm-hmm.
1:14:50
Want on the go.
1:14:51
So
1:14:52
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:14:52
I think movement also changes.
1:14:55
You know, you get fatigue.
1:14:56
You, you know, if you have the same exact perspective, if you're
1:14:59
doing the same task, you're wearing out the parts of your brain.
1:15:04
You're using up neurotransmitters.
1:15:06
That's, you know what I mean?
1:15:07
So I think like movement cognitively and movement physically
1:15:11
changes your perspective.
1:15:12
You're
1:15:12
Rupert Isaacson: neurotransmitters.
1:15:12
That's interesting.
1:15:13
Okay.
1:15:14
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:15:14
It's kind of like a a, that's
1:15:16
Rupert Isaacson: brain fatigue effectively.
1:15:17
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:15:17
Correct?
1:15:18
Yeah.
1:15:19
Yeah.
1:15:22
It's kind of like, I mean, we don't have camera flashes so much anymore, but kind
1:15:26
of like in the olden days you used to see a camera flash and you have a blind spot.
1:15:30
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:15:31
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:15:31
For a second.
1:15:32
That's temporary, but you've like run those those neurons out.
1:15:37
Of neurotransmitters, temporary.
1:15:38
It was like a really intense, focused in one part of the
1:15:41
brain or one part of the retina.
1:15:44
And it can't work anymore.
1:15:45
It's like, whew.
1:15:46
It has to wait to rebuild and, and get going.
1:15:49
So, I mean, I think we have biological, energetic needs in our brains, and
1:15:55
whether we're sitting still or cognitively focusing on one thing, I think we
1:16:01
also fatigue those, those networks.
1:16:06
Rupert Isaacson: Makes perfect sense.
1:16:07
So one of the challenges of working with children who have been diagnosed
1:16:17
with one thing or another thing mm-hmm.
1:16:19
Is I find twofold, one, and I wanna ask you some questions around this because
1:16:25
I think a lot of people listening will be having these challenges too.
1:16:29
Mm-hmm.
1:16:31
First challenge.
1:16:31
You have a kid that's been told they need therapy.
1:16:34
I have never yet met a kid that wanted therapy.
1:16:37
I've met lots of kids that would like to play.
1:16:39
Mm-hmm.
1:16:39
I've met lots of kids that would like to do interesting stuff.
1:16:42
Mm-hmm.
1:16:43
I've met lots of kids that would like to have fun, but I've never had a kid walk
1:16:46
up to me and say, you know, Rupert, what I really would like today is some therapy.
1:16:50
Mm-hmm.
1:16:51
And so if I'm saying to a kid who's a developing brain, day in, day
1:16:56
out for a decade, you need therapy.
1:17:00
Let's go to therapy, let's go to the therapy session now.
1:17:02
Oh, it's time for your such and such therapy.
1:17:05
It's not that the therapy's a bad, it's just that it's sending a message to
1:17:08
the kid that they need therapy at all.
1:17:11
Mm-hmm.
1:17:11
Which has to be not a confidence giver.
1:17:14
Right.
1:17:15
That's the first thing.
1:17:17
The second thing, of course, is that if attention where we began and
1:17:24
the value placed on sitting still to learn.
1:17:27
Even though it may not be natural mm-hmm.
1:17:30
Gets to a point where you then say to the child, not only do you need
1:17:35
therapy, but you need drugs, we're going to alter your brain with these drugs.
1:17:42
And then indeed, if you stop taking those drugs, there will be a negative effect.
1:17:50
'cause there'll be some sort of withdrawal.
1:17:53
Mm-hmm.
1:17:53
And then the child's in front of me, how much of this child authe,
1:18:00
authentically am I dealing with?
1:18:02
How much am I dealing with the medication?
1:18:05
Mm-hmm.
1:18:06
How much or how little is that medication blocking the
1:18:10
authentic experience of the world?
1:18:12
The, of the brain's ability to process.
1:18:15
Mm-hmm.
1:18:15
Information.
1:18:16
Some would say, well, it's the medication that's allowing him to process.
1:18:18
And others would say, no, actually it's blocking.
1:18:21
And the child's sort of an innocent in it.
1:18:23
They're just sort of
1:18:23
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:18:23
mm-hmm.
1:18:24
Rupert Isaacson: Trying to get through.
1:18:25
And then you have perhaps that child grows up and is medicated
1:18:31
till the day they die and is never experiencing the world without that.
1:18:35
Mm-hmm.
1:18:36
I'm not necessarily anti-medication in terms of if you're in a crisis, I mean,
1:18:40
shit, you need an antibiotic, right?
1:18:41
Mm-hmm.
1:18:42
But what I find alarming about behavioral modification medications is
1:18:49
that there's never an exit strategy.
1:18:51
It's not like an antibiotic that they say, take this for 10 days,
1:18:55
and then when the symptoms go away, you know, stop taking it or you'll
1:18:59
wipe out your gut floor or whatever.
1:19:01
They just say, no, stay on this stuff for the rest of your life.
1:19:03
Effectively, there is no, I, I've never heard of anyone being given the
1:19:08
exit strategy when they're put on.
1:19:10
So that's the brain and the nervous system.
1:19:14
Mm-hmm.
1:19:15
That's the thing that you are working with in your field.
1:19:18
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:19:18
Mm-hmm.
1:19:19
Mm-hmm.
1:19:22
Rupert Isaacson: If we give a, a kid that's having trouble
1:19:26
sitting still a drug to sit still,
1:19:30
what, what does that do to the developing brain?
1:19:35
Do we even know?
1:19:38
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:19:38
I would say some.
1:19:39
We know something, but probably not enough Uhhuh.
1:19:42
And, you know, I have one thing we know, I guess one thing we
1:19:47
know for sure is that they, drugs do not work well for everybody.
1:19:54
Mm-hmm.
1:19:55
And what does it mean to work well again?
1:19:57
Right.
1:19:57
This is, again, compared, I think that there's a lot in what you're saying.
1:20:01
One is like, how do we involve the children in these decisions about.
1:20:07
Interventions, whether they be therapeutic or behavioral and, and like, does the, are
1:20:13
the parents just overwhelmed and they need the kid to function in the society that
1:20:16
they've been born into and they're hoping for the magic pill that suddenly makes
1:20:20
the kid look like the neighbor's kid.
1:20:24
Right.
1:20:24
Yeah.
1:20:24
Which I think almost never works.
1:20:26
And what is the, how does the kid feel about this?
1:20:30
I think it's quite interesting because in particular receiving a diagnosis
1:20:35
and then the interventions that occur accordingly from a like self sense of
1:20:42
self perspective, it seems different when it happens in childhood and adulthood.
1:20:49
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely, a hundred percent.
1:20:51
And I've met plenty of adults that want wanted therapy 'cause that seems
1:20:54
to be an adult sort of decision.
1:20:55
Adult self expression.
1:20:57
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:20:57
And adults that get diagnoses, and they're not crushed by it.
1:21:01
They don't feel other, they feel relieved and they're like,
1:21:03
oh my gosh, now I have a plan.
1:21:05
Right.
1:21:05
And I, you know, there's like a, a, a, a way moving forward and I think,
1:21:10
you know, for a lot of these drug interventions, there are adaptations.
1:21:14
Like your brain does always, whether, you know, whether it's antidepressant
1:21:18
or whether you're taking Ritalin or you know, or you know, anti-anxiety meds.
1:21:25
Like it's, you are intervening with this neurochemistry and your brain
1:21:29
will try to adapt accordingly.
1:21:32
It will try and move around that system mm-hmm.
1:21:35
In ways that like create, adapt adaptations and tolerance
1:21:39
and and so forth and so on.
1:21:41
So, you know, some kids do feel a lot better on, they feel better, I think.
1:21:47
Like, I guess I wanna know how you feel and do you feel better and do you feel
1:21:50
better able to meet the demands of your day on these medications or do you not?
1:21:56
And is that coming from the kid or coming from somebody else's
1:22:00
definition of what it means to be good?
1:22:03
And are we sort of like, like is this akin to like, we're modifying our, our
1:22:08
children to fit into this like, cookie cutter template of, of what normal means?
1:22:14
So for me, I think understanding how the kids feel, but also this
1:22:18
identity around being labeled, you know, to our point of other and
1:22:23
being told that there's something wrong and that you need to fix it.
1:22:26
I think I would love to see, kids involvement.
1:22:29
And what, what is it that you would like, what do you find easy?
1:22:32
You said you asked the kid what they like and what they hate.
1:22:34
What is it that you find easy, right?
1:22:36
What is it that you find hard?
1:22:38
Is there anything you'd like to get better at?
1:22:41
Rupert Isaacson: Well, right, I mean, that's the first question is usually
1:22:43
is what do you feel like doing?
1:22:45
Yeah.
1:22:45
Yeah.
1:22:45
And I've, I've got some intel about what you like.
1:22:47
I've sort of set a few things up, but you might want that
1:22:50
one, you might want that one.
1:22:51
You might want that one.
1:22:52
And it might be completely different to what I think.
1:22:55
So as much as possible, if you can answer me, I'd, I'd love to know.
1:22:58
But we never call, if someone comes out to a horse boy place, for
1:23:01
example, we never call it therapy.
1:23:02
It's a play date.
1:23:03
It's always a play date.
1:23:05
You, you, that's cool.
1:23:05
You're coming.
1:23:06
And, and
1:23:06
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:23:06
I'm sure it actually is too.
1:23:08
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it has to be, otherwise it won't work.
1:23:09
But it, it, I, it's just we realized very early that to even use the word
1:23:15
therapy was kind of depressing, you know, for a lot of, a lot of the kids.
1:23:18
But the.
1:23:20
Doesn't mean what you do can't be very therapeutic, but
1:23:23
that's not the kids' problem.
1:23:24
That's sort of up to us to sort of deliver under the table if you like
1:23:28
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:23:28
it.
1:23:28
It's funny that you said play date because I had this aha moment for my
1:23:31
own self and with my own horses and, and I think this is relevant because
1:23:36
in both of these cases, I think you have to think about short-term
1:23:40
learning and long-term learning.
1:23:42
Yeah.
1:23:42
And it's kind of like, I don't wanna use the battle in the war.
1:23:44
Right.
1:23:44
But like, are you learning how to do X but also learning that you are broken?
1:23:51
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:23:53
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:23:53
And not good enough and you know this, or are you learning how to
1:24:00
work with the grain of your nature?
1:24:01
Learning how to.
1:24:03
You know, be successful with the tools that you have.
1:24:07
And, and how does that change your, your sense of self?
1:24:10
And I, you know, this is the thing that, it's just so sad to think
1:24:14
that like by kindergarten, kids already have a sense of, do I fit in?
1:24:18
Am I good in school?
1:24:19
Does my teacher like me?
1:24:20
And how much that scales up to what they, you know, again, to curiosity versus
1:24:27
threat to trying, like, nobody tr I have yet to meet a person who is super
1:24:33
excited to try something that they're quite sure they're gonna be crap at.
1:24:37
Right.
1:24:38
So like, it just, yeah.
1:24:39
Well,
1:24:39
Rupert Isaacson: particularly if you feel that you might be,
1:24:43
there might be some adverse reaction to being crap at it.
1:24:46
Yeah.
1:24:46
Like, it being crap is fun.
1:24:47
It's like, I'm gonna try and jump off this face.
1:24:49
Yeah.
1:24:49
That's fun.
1:24:49
Yeah.
1:24:49
I'm gonna land on my ass like a jackass.
1:24:51
That's funny.
1:24:52
And then laugh your ass off.
1:24:52
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:24:52
Yeah.
1:24:53
Yeah.
1:24:53
Rupert Isaacson: But,
1:24:53
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:24:53
so I had this when I was working with my, my horses the other day.
1:24:57
I had this just new idea of success.
1:24:59
'cause I'm thinking about the long term.
1:25:01
I'm not, for me, I don't really care if I can, you know, ride a high
1:25:06
school dressage test ever with them.
1:25:08
But I am quite curious to see what I can learn to do with them.
1:25:11
And then I thought like, my idea of success is that every training
1:25:16
feels like a play date with mom.
1:25:18
Right.
1:25:18
Because I think that that sets me up for the long term.
1:25:22
Like, if, if the only thing my horse learns is that learning
1:25:25
is fun, then what can I not do?
1:25:27
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:25:27
Exactly.
1:25:29
Exactly.
1:25:29
And if I do find that it's stressful for me or the horse, can I change it somehow?
1:25:35
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:25:35
Right.
1:25:36
Rupert Isaacson: You know?
1:25:36
And, and what are the options for changing it?
1:25:38
Can the person who's teaching me.
1:25:41
Do it another way.
1:25:43
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:25:43
Right.
1:25:43
Rupert Isaacson: If not, do I need another teacher?
1:25:45
Yeah.
1:25:46
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:25:46
Yeah.
1:25:46
And I think that it's important in this space to acknowledge that it's
1:25:49
always a little bit stressful to be doing something you don't know.
1:25:52
Rupert Isaacson: Well, not, yeah.
1:25:53
So is all stress it's a little bit necessarily bad because No, exactly.
1:25:57
Right, because Exactly.
1:25:59
And, and there can be fun involved in stress.
1:26:02
I'm just thinking about myself if I'm, I like to cross country jump,
1:26:06
so if I'm heading in a cross country jump, I'm always shitting myself.
1:26:10
'cause I've had some bad wrecks.
1:26:11
I know what can happen.
1:26:13
And but I love it.
1:26:14
So I've got my sympathetic nervous system going, but it's also excited and kind
1:26:20
of, maybe that's basal ganglia, Uhhuh
1:26:22
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:26:22
uhhuh.
1:26:23
Rupert Isaacson: And it's quite, 'cause you remember
1:26:24
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:26:24
all, all the times that you, you made it more than you wrecked.
1:26:27
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
1:26:28
And it's just such good crack, you know?
1:26:31
Yeah.
1:26:31
So all of those things come together where there's a trade off between the fear.
1:26:35
And the curiosity and the excitement and so on.
1:26:38
But if it were to go beyond a certain point, like if you were to put me at
1:26:42
a fence that I just know I'm not gonna get over, you know, then well sure
1:26:46
there'd, there'd be no enjoyment in it.
1:26:49
Or if I felt that there'd be some really adverse shaming or something.
1:26:53
If, if I, if I didn't make it or if I backed away from it, maybe that one,
1:26:58
that would be more like my upbringing if I said, oh, just not feeling it today.
1:27:02
So I, I was pushed to go at fences.
1:27:06
The culture was to be kind of brave, but not wise.
1:27:12
So I learned that, and my fear of being censored as a coward overrode my
1:27:21
knowledge that I probably would wreck and I probably should back away the, the
1:27:26
conditions were not right for whatever.
1:27:28
And I was more afraid of the judgment that would come.
1:27:31
You know, so, but that comes back a little bit to my mind, to the drugs thing because
1:27:35
if it, if I'm seeing an overwhelming number of kids who are on these drugs,
1:27:41
it's not like, oh, it's just one or two.
1:27:42
Because it's not just the kids that come to me, it's like
1:27:44
half their classmates or more.
1:27:45
Mm-hmm.
1:27:46
It's so many.
1:27:48
And at that point, you're going, do they just, every single kid
1:27:53
that's on actually need, like what?
1:27:55
Like so many, like this percentage how do we survive as a culture
1:28:01
at all before this then?
1:28:02
Mm-hmm.
1:28:02
If this is like such a problem that we gotta have all these medications
1:28:07
that, like how do we possibly come up with internal combustion
1:28:10
engine or anything, you know?
1:28:12
Yeah.
1:28:12
Or the wheel.
1:28:13
Mm-hmm.
1:28:13
But we did.
1:28:13
Mm-hmm.
1:28:14
And in, in other parts of the world where they don't have those things or do
1:28:17
those things, why are they not all just.
1:28:19
You know, failing because they're not right.
1:28:21
Yeah.
1:28:22
Mm-hmm.
1:28:22
So we must be creating, therefore, a society where things that are not
1:28:28
disorders are perceived as disorders.
1:28:30
Right.
1:28:30
And, and
1:28:31
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:28:31
I also think also a, a society where we're looking for easy fix and magic fix.
1:28:35
And I think right, there's a com, you know, whether you're selling someone
1:28:38
eye cream or a pill for their kid that, you know, at the root of this is
1:28:45
a belief that you're not good enough,
1:28:48
Rupert Isaacson: which comes back to not safe, right?
1:28:51
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:28:51
Mm-hmm.
1:28:53
Mm-hmm.
1:28:54
Rupert Isaacson: So the subject of drugs brings me to something
1:28:58
else I'd like to ask you about.
1:28:59
So, states have altered consciousness.
1:29:01
Mm-hmm.
1:29:01
So we know that altering the consciousness is actually part
1:29:06
of the human species thing.
1:29:10
We've been doing it.
1:29:12
A long time.
1:29:12
It seems not just by taking mushrooms and ayahuasca, but also in those places of the
1:29:22
world where those things don't grow, where there are no psychotropics, you know,
1:29:27
repetitive dance to go into a trance, to go into an alter state of consciousness.
1:29:30
Mm-hmm.
1:29:31
So presumably states of altered consciousness actually can
1:29:35
be very good for the brain.
1:29:37
Mm-hmm.
1:29:37
And presumably some forms of them can be less good for the brain, but it seems
1:29:41
that the brain actively seeks this out.
1:29:44
Mm-hmm.
1:29:45
And that it's, it functions as part of our healing systems.
1:29:48
Mm-hmm.
1:29:51
Do you know much about what parts of the brain are involved with that?
1:29:54
With the seeking out of altered states of consciousness and.
1:29:59
What parts of the brain seem to benefit and so on.
1:30:03
Have you
1:30:03
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:30:03
Yeah.
1:30:04
An
1:30:04
Rupert Isaacson: idea.
1:30:04
Can you talk an to us a bit about that idea?
1:30:06
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:30:06
I have an idea and I'm also looking at the clock.
1:30:08
'cause my class starts in 20 minutes.
1:30:10
I'm gonna tell you though.
1:30:12
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:30:12
And this is really, this could be the first of two or even three.
1:30:16
Yeah.
1:30:16
Oh my gosh.
1:30:16
Have we got a lot more ground to cover?
1:30:18
And I haven't even begun to ask you about horses yet.
1:30:21
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:30:21
Yes.
1:30:21
Rupert Isaacson: Horse brains.
1:30:22
Yes.
1:30:22
Let's do it.
1:30:23
So we've gotta get there.
1:30:23
So listeners, we will get to all that stuff.
1:30:27
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:30:27
Yes.
1:30:27
But today we're going
1:30:28
Rupert Isaacson: to do what Chantel has time for.
1:30:30
Okay.
1:30:30
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:30:30
Yes.
1:30:30
Thank you.
1:30:31
So, okay.
1:30:32
So I think.
1:30:34
First and foremost, perceptual curiosity.
1:30:38
Right?
1:30:38
I think that the same reason we look for different exper tastes, sensations,
1:30:44
perspective, and so forth in the real world gives us a perspective
1:30:48
and broadens our sense making.
1:30:49
Makes sense.
1:30:50
So that's what, what draws us to it.
1:30:52
But I just read this paper that I am kind of obsessed with that's about
1:30:56
dreams and and it's, it, you know, some of the people in my lab didn't like it
1:31:01
'cause it uses AI and computers as a, as a way of explaining why we need this.
1:31:07
So you're like, what's the healing benefit?
1:31:09
So, the idea with the dreams was that we take our sort of
1:31:13
narrative story structure.
1:31:15
The part of the brain would be called the default mode network.
1:31:18
It's kind of where our mental model of the world and our place in it
1:31:24
resides after, you know, hundreds of thousands of memories and facts
1:31:28
and learning and personal narrative settle into this default mode
1:31:32
network, which is where we store.
1:31:34
The way we understand is that
1:31:35
Rupert Isaacson: located in a particular geographic area of the brain.
1:31:38
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:31:38
The whole, it has, it's located in pretty much all lobes of the brain, but yeah,
1:31:43
it's kind of in the central parts of the brain, the temporal lobes and these
1:31:47
parts of the brain turn on when you mind wander, turn off when you're on, on task.
1:31:52
So, and they're, you know, very characteristic.
1:31:54
You can, I could tell your brain from my brain easily by looking at our
1:31:58
sense-making kind of default mode network.
1:32:01
So the idea is that when we dream, we take.
1:32:05
You know, the reason dreams are kind of like fantastical and, and like
1:32:09
they have like combination of things that are just normal and things that
1:32:12
are like totally weird, but they're always story-like, because your
1:32:16
brain is trying to avoid overfitting, which means I've sampled a lot of
1:32:20
experiences over and over, but there's this space in between that is unknown.
1:32:26
And so I might make a wrong conclusion because I haven't gone there.
1:32:32
And what I, I think I find this just so evocative, this idea that,
1:32:35
well, when you sleep, your brain puts noise into that story system
1:32:40
to help you explore the in-between.
1:32:45
Like have you ever had a dream where.
1:32:47
You're hanging out with your son and you're like walking through the forest
1:32:50
and everything is totally normal, except your son is actually not your son.
1:32:53
Like the person doing business.
1:32:55
As this person, you're, you're perfectly willing to accept that this person is
1:32:59
ex, although they're like the wrong gender, the wrong age, it's just
1:33:03
like a completely different person.
1:33:05
Yeah.
1:33:05
So they're like, it's like you have known actors and agents, but they
1:33:08
get all scrambled up and then you just tell a story and your brain
1:33:12
goes through this set of experiences.
1:33:13
So I, I believe that like, some of our hallucinogenic experiences, not only
1:33:19
are they like increasing plasticity with serotonin, but they're also like,
1:33:23
you know, they're, they're exploring the in-between these, they're allowing
1:33:28
you to experience something maybe you couldn't ever really experience here.
1:33:35
Rupert Isaacson: Got a question?
1:33:36
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:33:36
Yeah.
1:33:36
Rupert Isaacson: You just said something.
1:33:39
Why so why does serotonin increase plasticity?
1:33:41
I.
1:33:43
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:33:43
It's a great question.
1:33:43
We don't know, but we know that the that these, a lot of the hallucinogenic
1:33:48
drugs that seem to have mood rehabilitation affects work on serotonin.
1:33:52
What we don't know is like
1:33:53
Rupert Isaacson: silvan or psilocybin rather.
1:33:55
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:33:55
Yes, yes, yes.
1:33:56
Yeah, exactly.
1:33:57
But we don't know why, like serotonin re-uptake inhibitors,
1:34:01
like antidepressants.
1:34:02
We don't know why they don't make you hallucinate, why they don't have the
1:34:04
same kind of like learning effects.
1:34:07
Oh,
1:34:09
this is my alarm.
1:34:10
Just telling me I have a couple
1:34:11
Rupert Isaacson: minutes.
1:34:12
Okay, well that is our pause mode.
1:34:13
And
1:34:13
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:34:13
that, I mean, so that is like, so it blows my mind.
1:34:16
Like I said, it's only a theory, but this is, to me, these two things make sense.
1:34:20
The desire to see, feel, experience, different things and that these
1:34:26
altered states of consciousness to some extent, depending on your
1:34:29
own, the adventure you've chosen, allow you to experience things.
1:34:32
You couldn't.
1:34:34
Really experience in this world.
1:34:36
And that like dreams, there's this idea of what you learn
1:34:40
allows you to predict the future.
1:34:42
But we have, we tend to sort of have similar experiences over
1:34:46
and over, and that, that leads to something called overfitting where
1:34:49
you develop like, superstitions and you've like correlated two things
1:34:54
together that aren't really related.
1:34:55
And so your, your meaning model likes to like, let me just inject repeated thoughts
1:35:01
Rupert Isaacson: becoming beliefs, right?
1:35:02
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:35:02
Yeah, yeah,
1:35:03
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
1:35:05
Interesting.
1:35:06
So, and it's interesting your point about why Yeah.
1:35:09
Why doesn't the artificial serotonin take thing work in the same brain
1:35:16
smic way as the real mm-hmm.
1:35:19
Thing.
1:35:19
'cause I guess 'cause it's not the real thing, you know?
1:35:22
I think
1:35:22
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:35:22
so,
1:35:22
Rupert Isaacson: and I guess mother nature
1:35:23
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:35:23
gave us those magic mushrooms for a reason like
1:35:25
Rupert Isaacson: oxytocin, right?
1:35:26
You know, a shot of oxytocin.
1:35:29
Gotten through the natural ways is wow.
1:35:32
And give Pitocin through the nose.
1:35:34
Bring down some breast, breast milk.
1:35:36
But it won't make you feel That's right.
1:35:38
Eureka.
1:35:39
No.
1:35:40
Yeah.
1:35:40
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:35:40
Yeah.
1:35:41
Rupert Isaacson: We're clever monkeys, but I guess nature's always best.
1:35:47
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:35:47
Right, right.
1:35:50
Rupert Isaacson: Listen, there's so many more questions and I wanted to get
1:35:53
into the quantum aspects of the brain.
1:35:56
There've been some interesting studies in the last year on this.
1:35:58
I wanted to get your take about the microtubules within myelin
1:36:03
and all that stuff, and I wanted to go into the horse brain.
1:36:07
Thing people talking about and
1:36:08
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:36:08
how we understand horse brains.
1:36:10
Right.
1:36:10
Well, we'll have to do part two.
1:36:12
Rupert Isaacson: So let's do part two.
1:36:13
So yes, we will ask if horses have prefrontal cortexes or, and if they don't,
1:36:17
why do they seem to behave as if they do?
1:36:19
And we, we'll, I want to ask all these questions.
1:36:21
I'm sure that the listeners want to hear them.
1:36:23
So shall we reschedule a part two?
1:36:26
Yes, please.
1:36:26
And then what We don't get to that.
1:36:28
We'll do an part three.
1:36:29
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:36:29
Yes.
1:36:30
And then what we don't get to that.
1:36:31
We'll do an part four
1:36:32
Rupert Isaacson: super.
1:36:32
When
1:36:32
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:36:32
I come to live with you in Spain, I don't know if you're with us
1:36:35
that well, there is also drive day,
1:36:36
Rupert Isaacson: Coming up horse boy Drive Day in Ireland, August 9th to 11th.
1:36:40
Just put it in your diary.
1:36:42
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:36:42
Oh my gosh.
1:36:42
Rupert Isaacson: A big old piss up.
1:36:43
At Kco, which is the big horse boys center, just outside Dublin.
1:36:48
We'll be camping out and
1:36:49
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:36:49
it would be like the real life aver version of our Irish
1:36:52
singing in the lobby of the uk.
1:36:55
Rupert Isaacson: That will be it.
1:36:57
Yeah.
1:36:58
Yeah.
1:36:58
Oh my gosh.
1:36:58
Yeah.
1:36:59
Yeah.
1:36:59
With some brain starts and some ponies.
1:37:00
Some actual ponies.
1:37:01
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:37:01
Oh, that'll be so cool
1:37:02
Rupert Isaacson: there in the field.
1:37:03
Yeah.
1:37:03
So.
1:37:04
Also for listeners, if this is, if you're listening to this before
1:37:08
August, 2025, it will be August 9th to 11th Horse Boy Tribe Day.
1:37:12
You can find out on our website.
1:37:14
All the really cool people will be there m Cool because of who they are and what
1:37:18
they do and they're worth talking to.
1:37:20
Hopefully Chantal Pratt might join us.
1:37:22
If not, she'll come down to Spain where other listeners can join us too.
1:37:27
Alright, listen, thank you so much.
1:37:29
The neuroscience of you right?
1:37:30
Is the book that people need to pick up and the exam will
1:37:34
be during our next podcast.
1:37:36
So, you know, just memorize pages one 50 to 2 25.
1:37:40
You should be fine.
1:37:41
Okay.
1:37:43
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:37:43
But only if you feel curious about it.
1:37:47
Rupert Isaacson: I'm gonna read it.
1:37:49
Brilliant.
1:37:50
Okay.
1:37:50
Thank you so much.
1:37:52
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:37:52
Thank you.
1:37:52
See, I will see you next time soon.
1:37:54
Yeah.
1:37:54
Okay.
1:37:54
Yeah.
1:37:55
Rupert Isaacson: We'll, we'll take
1:37:55
Dr. Chantel Prat:
1:37:55
care.
1:37:56
Rupert Isaacson: We'll book it for the next few weeks.
1:37:57
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