Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1225 - Self Control Can Be A Learned Behaviour With Ethan Kross

Transcript

#1225 - Self Control Can Be A Learned Behaviour With Ethan Kross · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:06
Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families podcast. Hello, my name is
0:08
Speaker 1: doctor Justin Coulson. It's so good of you to join
0:11
Speaker 1: me for today's conversation. This is one that I've been
0:15
Speaker 1: so excited about for a long long time. Today's guest
0:18
Speaker 1: has been linked to one of the most famous psychological
0:21
Speaker 1: experiments ever done. Certainly in the last several decades, this
0:26
Speaker 1: has become an absolute classic. I'll tell you more about
0:28
Speaker 1: it in just a sec, but let me introduce my guest.
0:31
Speaker 1: Doctor Ethan Cross is a professor in the psychology department
0:36
Speaker 1: at the well look, I'll just say, at the prestigious
0:38
Speaker 1: Ross School of Business at the University of Michigan. Ethan
0:43
Speaker 1: specializes in the study of self control, and he was
0:46
Speaker 1: mentored in graduate school by Walter Mitchell, who famously studied
0:51
Speaker 1: delayed gratification with what's become known as the marsh Mellow experiment.
0:56
Speaker 1: Ethan runs the University of Michigan Emotion and Self Control Laboratory,
1:01
Speaker 1: and he's won a number of awards over the course
1:04
Speaker 1: of his career, as well as being featured in publications
1:06
Speaker 1: including The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The
1:09
Speaker 1: New Yorker, and USA Today. And I began by asking
1:12
Speaker 1: Ethan about his work and his family life.
1:16
Speaker 2: Well, so, I run a lab called the University of
1:19
Speaker 2: Michigan Emotion and Self Control Laboratory, And basically, we do
1:24
Speaker 2: lots of experiments to try to figure out how self
1:27
Speaker 2: control works in children and adults. And when I use
1:32
Speaker 2: the term self control, I mean how can people align
1:38
Speaker 2: their thoughts, feelings, and behaviors with their goals? So it's
1:42
Speaker 2: really broad. It's really like, if you want to act,
1:45
Speaker 2: or think or feel a particular way in this world,
1:47
Speaker 2: how can you do that? What are the psychological tools
1:50
Speaker 2: that allow you to fulfill those goals? And so that
1:53
Speaker 2: takes us down a lot of exciting paths that I'm
1:55
Speaker 2: sure we'll talk about today. And when I'm not working
1:59
Speaker 2: in a lab with my students and colleagues, I'm both
2:03
Speaker 2: working and relaxing at home. They have a lot of
2:07
Speaker 2: work at home too. I've got I'm married to a
2:11
Speaker 2: woman named Lara, and I've got two daughters, May and Danny,
2:15
Speaker 2: age eleven and six, who are a lot of fun
2:18
Speaker 2: and the inspiration for lots of self control experiments.
2:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, I bet do you ever experiment on them? Have
2:24
Speaker 1: you done the marshmallow experiment with your two daughters.
2:28
Speaker 2: I have, in fact, a funny story about the marshmallow
2:31
Speaker 2: experiment with my oldest daughter Maya. So my advisor in
2:36
Speaker 2: graduate school is actually the marshmallow Man, Walter Michelle.
2:40
Speaker 1: Now before you tell me about Maya for people who
2:42
Speaker 1: are not familiar with Walter Michelle and the marshmallow experiment,
2:44
Speaker 1: because that was going to be my next question. Anyway, Okay,
2:47
Speaker 1: when I Cyber was talking, I was like, no way.
2:49
Speaker 1: Ethan Cross was supervised by one of the one of
2:52
Speaker 1: the modern legends of psychology. He did this marshmallow experiment
2:58
Speaker 1: that so many people have heard of and even have
3:00
Speaker 1: seen an a recent resurg and solve it on TikTok
3:02
Speaker 1: in the last few months through the isolation stage. What
3:07
Speaker 1: did he do? And then what did you do with
3:10
Speaker 1: Maya as a result of that?
3:12
Speaker 2: Sure, So the marshmallow test, in a nutshell is it's
3:16
Speaker 2: a paradigm for studying self control in the lab under
3:20
Speaker 2: control conditions. And what you do is you bring a
3:23
Speaker 2: kid into the lab and then you give them a choice.
3:25
Speaker 2: You say you can have one treat now or and
3:30
Speaker 2: we call it the marshmallow test, but in fact we
3:31
Speaker 2: use whatever treats the kids like so for some kids
3:34
Speaker 2: it's raisins, other kids it's pretzels.
3:36
Speaker 1: And you show me one child that's going to pick
3:38
Speaker 1: a raisin over a marshmallow.
3:40
Speaker 2: Really, there are some we could talk about the question
3:44
Speaker 2: marks that's surround their match. Or I'm just joking. Some
3:47
Speaker 2: kids like fruit go figure. So you give them a
3:52
Speaker 2: choice one marshmallow now or if you wait until I
3:55
Speaker 2: come back. I have to leave the room for a
3:56
Speaker 2: little bit. But if you can just sit tight and wait,
3:59
Speaker 2: then you can have two mars. But the only way
4:01
Speaker 2: you can have two is if you wait until I
4:04
Speaker 2: come back. And the experimenter doesn't tell the child how
4:07
Speaker 2: long it's going to take for them to come back.
4:10
Speaker 2: So there's uncertainty, which we know everyone who's living through
4:13
Speaker 2: COVID nineteen right now. Uncertainty can drive emotional responses. And
4:18
Speaker 2: so this for children is a really difficult choice, right
4:21
Speaker 2: because all the kids, like Walter and the experimenters are
4:26
Speaker 2: running these studies. They make sure that everyone wants the
4:28
Speaker 2: two marshmallows.
4:30
Speaker 1: And then normally only around age four, maybe five or
4:32
Speaker 1: six at the monster. So it's not like self regulation
4:35
Speaker 1: and self control, which is what we're talking about and
4:38
Speaker 1: teaching these two kids, It's not like this is intrinsic
4:41
Speaker 1: to them. At this point. Self control is hard. They
4:44
Speaker 1: go from zero to one hundred emotionally in seconds, don't they?
4:48
Speaker 2: Some kids do and other kids don't. And so that's
4:50
Speaker 2: part of that's one of the really interesting findings surrounding
4:53
Speaker 2: this line of work. So you look at so everyone
4:57
Speaker 2: wants the two marshmallows, but they have this dilemma looking
5:00
Speaker 2: at this delectable treat, right, they're drooling over it, So
5:04
Speaker 2: what do they do? So it turns out in one
5:07
Speaker 2: line of studies they find that the kids who were
5:09
Speaker 2: able to wait longer, their delay of gratification ability predicts
5:14
Speaker 2: lots of important life outcomes later on in life, so
5:17
Speaker 2: how well they do in school, how adjusted they are,
5:20
Speaker 2: and their relationships and their health. And the idea is
5:22
Speaker 2: that what this task is tapping into is this basic competency,
5:28
Speaker 2: this ability to manage our emotions. The other thing that
5:32
Speaker 2: this line of research tells us, though, is what Walter
5:35
Speaker 2: did lots of experiments to figure out, well, how can
5:37
Speaker 2: you direct kids to think differently about the about what
5:42
Speaker 2: they're waiting for the two marshmallows versus one? What are
5:45
Speaker 2: the different psychological tricks that you can use, so to speak,
5:48
Speaker 2: to manage your emotions effectively. And so they did lots
5:52
Speaker 2: of experiments and found developed lots of insights that informed us,
5:56
Speaker 2: now many decades later, about what are the tools that
6:00
Speaker 2: people possess that we can use to control ourselves. So
6:04
Speaker 2: that's the marshmallow test in a nutshell, and the quick
6:07
Speaker 2: to bring it back to my family, the fun anecdote is, I,
6:10
Speaker 2: of course have been waiting like a decade since I
6:12
Speaker 2: started working with Walter, to have a kid who I
6:15
Speaker 2: could do this task with. And so I dutifully set
6:18
Speaker 2: up the task and all the parameters and make sure
6:20
Speaker 2: I'm doing it by the book, and then give I
6:24
Speaker 2: sit my down and I describe it and I say okay,
6:27
Speaker 2: and before I leave, she goes, Daddy, I want one
6:31
Speaker 2: marshmallow now and I want both later. And so it's
6:35
Speaker 2: a clear violation of a protocol. And so because I
6:40
Speaker 2: know Walter or I passed away recently but I knew him,
6:43
Speaker 2: I picked up the phone and I called Walter and
6:45
Speaker 2: I said, Walter, you know, have you ever heard of
6:47
Speaker 2: a child doing this? And all the years that you've
6:49
Speaker 2: been doing this research And he pauses, and very sternly
6:55
Speaker 2: he says, Ethan, it's not too soon to start therapy
6:59
Speaker 2: as an indicator of what the of course was joking,
7:04
Speaker 2: but the message was delivered well.
7:06
Speaker 1: And so you're going to have a long, long, hard
7:08
Speaker 1: life with the negotiator. That's what That's what he's really saying.
7:12
Speaker 2: Get ready, buckle in that basically that's right. So and
7:17
Speaker 2: you know, we maybe we'll get into it later. Maya
7:19
Speaker 2: has proven to be quite adept at negotiations in the
7:22
Speaker 2: six years since we've done that task.
7:24
Speaker 1: So now, now, before I asked the next question, I
7:26
Speaker 1: think it's really important to highlight that as a as
7:30
Speaker 1: a parenting expert or as a psychology researcher, my suggestion
7:35
Speaker 1: is you probably wouldn't be encouraging parents to do the
7:38
Speaker 1: marshmallow test at home with their children as a diagnostics
7:41
Speaker 1: tool to determine how self controlled they'll be throughout their life.
7:44
Speaker 1: Their destiny is not in their decision around.
7:48
Speaker 2: Marshmallow, absolutely not.
7:50
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a fun experiment.
7:52
Speaker 2: It's fun experiment, and you know the way that the
7:56
Speaker 2: context in which I used it with my kids was
7:58
Speaker 2: to introduce them to a scientific experiment and then to
8:02
Speaker 2: talk about what we've learned. And one of the things
8:05
Speaker 2: that we've learned, which often gets lost in the translation
8:07
Speaker 2: of this work when when people talk about it with
8:10
Speaker 2: the world, is that one of the things we know
8:13
Speaker 2: is that you can change your self control. You know,
8:16
Speaker 2: one of my pet peeves is when I hear people
8:18
Speaker 2: saying you have no self control. That's absolutely not true.
8:21
Speaker 2: Everyone possesses self control to some extent. Some of us
8:25
Speaker 2: are better at exerting it in some context as opposed
8:28
Speaker 2: to others. I may be really good at exerting self
8:30
Speaker 2: control regulating myself when I'm working on a problem at work,
8:33
Speaker 2: but maybe I have a little bit more difficulties when
8:35
Speaker 2: I'm coaching soccer. That's not true. I'm pretty good there too.
8:38
Speaker 2: But I have my I have my weaknesses. They're associated
8:42
Speaker 2: with the with the pantry post ten pm at night,
8:45
Speaker 2: when I crave some foods. We all have our Achilles
8:50
Speaker 2: heel when it comes to self control. But what we
8:52
Speaker 2: know is that there are different tools we can use
8:54
Speaker 2: to improve our self control. And these these these different
8:58
Speaker 2: things we can do, they're teachable, they're strategies are often
9:01
Speaker 2: easy to implement, and so I talk to my kids
9:04
Speaker 2: about the different ways that they can manage the temptation
9:08
Speaker 2: when it exists, and so absolutely not. You wouldn't want
9:11
Speaker 2: people to think that scores on that test for their
9:13
Speaker 2: destiny by any means.
9:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've done at home with my kids as well,
9:17
Speaker 1: purely to have the conversation about self control and how
9:19
Speaker 1: it works. In fact, you've taken me exactly to where
9:23
Speaker 1: I wanted to go next, and that was just to
9:25
Speaker 1: talk about how we can teach our children's self control.
9:27
Speaker 1: And what I'm especially interested in is how does it
9:31
Speaker 1: affect children who are not developing along the typical pathways.
9:35
Speaker 1: You know, kids that have got ADHD, kids that have
9:37
Speaker 1: got autism. What can your self control research teach us
9:42
Speaker 1: in terms of helping those more narrow, rigid thinking children
9:47
Speaker 1: to manage themselves.
9:49
Speaker 2: Well, one disclaimer is we haven't looked at several of
9:51
Speaker 2: those populations, and there's always this tension between wanting to
9:56
Speaker 2: generalize from the studies we've done as far as we
10:01
Speaker 2: can and without having looked at ADHD and autism in particular,
10:06
Speaker 2: it's hard to make that leap because we're dealing with,
10:10
Speaker 2: in some cases, very different kinds of populations with their
10:12
Speaker 2: own unique characteristics. Now, what we do know. We can
10:17
Speaker 2: say something though about about populations of children who experience
10:22
Speaker 2: difficulty regulating themselves in general, so not clinical populations, but
10:27
Speaker 2: groups that are just more impulsive, more prone to anger,
10:30
Speaker 2: more prone to experiencing temptation. By and large, what we
10:33
Speaker 2: see is that the more intense the emotional response, the
10:38
Speaker 2: more effective the different self controls tend to be. So,
10:43
Speaker 2: and the idea there is, look, if you're dealing with
10:44
Speaker 2: a little bit of emotion, there's not a whole lot
10:48
Speaker 2: of room for these tools to help you feel better
10:51
Speaker 2: or help you rein it in. But as the amplitude
10:53
Speaker 2: of the emotions go up, the more intense it is,
10:56
Speaker 2: the more room there is to help bring you down.
10:59
Speaker 2: And so in some of those that man affects studies,
11:01
Speaker 2: for example, we've seen that the kids who benefit the
11:04
Speaker 2: most from that technique are the ones who have the
11:08
Speaker 2: most difficulty regulating themselves in general, they're the ones who
11:13
Speaker 2: are benefiting. And so there are lots of open questions
11:16
Speaker 2: about whether that'll extend to autistic and other populations, but
11:21
Speaker 2: we do have some inklings that it might. So there
11:24
Speaker 2: are a boatload of different strategies that people can use
11:28
Speaker 2: to exert self control both children and adults, and to
11:30
Speaker 2: be concrete about what I mean by that. We know,
11:34
Speaker 2: for example, that when people are tempted to act in
11:37
Speaker 2: particular ways, or when they're trying to control their emotions,
11:41
Speaker 2: diverting their attention can be really powerful right as a
11:44
Speaker 2: short term fix. So you might want to have a
11:46
Speaker 2: person if something is bothering us or tempting us, let's
11:49
Speaker 2: focus on something else. And for young children in particular,
11:53
Speaker 2: diverting attention can be a powerful tool if they're looking
11:57
Speaker 2: at a treat. For example, in the marshmallow studies, one
12:00
Speaker 2: of the best ways to get kids to wait longer
12:03
Speaker 2: was to put a little box on top of the
12:06
Speaker 2: marshmallow so the kids couldn't see it, or to have
12:09
Speaker 2: the child think about other things, think fun thoughts about
12:13
Speaker 2: being on the playground with mommy pushing me on the swing.
12:16
Speaker 2: So diverting our attention away from a thing that's tempting
12:19
Speaker 2: or bothering us can be one kind of tool. Another
12:23
Speaker 2: kind of tool deals with the ability of the mind
12:27
Speaker 2: to change the way we think about things. So we
12:30
Speaker 2: did a study several years ago. It was a brain
12:32
Speaker 2: imaging experiment in which we were trying to look at
12:35
Speaker 2: how people can reduce craving responses to things like pizza
12:39
Speaker 2: or drugs. Right, we see these temptations, we desperately want them.
12:44
Speaker 2: And so in one condition, we've had people just look
12:47
Speaker 2: it up an image of a delicious looking piece of pizza,
12:52
Speaker 2: and in another condition we had them imagine that a
12:56
Speaker 2: cockerroach had just crawled across the pizzas. And so that's
12:59
Speaker 2: just an exam of the power of the mind to
13:02
Speaker 2: transform the way we think about things, and how we
13:06
Speaker 2: change the way we think can change the way we feel.
13:09
Speaker 2: That is the basis of cognitive therapy and cognitive interventions
13:13
Speaker 2: to change our mood.
13:15
Speaker 1: So, in a nutshell, what we want to do without
13:16
Speaker 1: our children is we want to either divert their attention
13:19
Speaker 1: so they're not even thinking about it, or make it invisible,
13:22
Speaker 1: like literally pick it up and move it, or pick
13:24
Speaker 1: your child up and move your child. And this will
13:26
Speaker 1: obviously work a lot easier with younger children, but you
13:28
Speaker 1: can still make stuff invisible. They usually look at your
13:31
Speaker 1: own wing and say, oh, I can't believe you're taking
13:32
Speaker 1: that away, But technically that's not self control, that's parent control. Nevertheless,
13:37
Speaker 1: it will reduce the challenge that you're facing.
13:41
Speaker 2: Well, I think the way you're describing it right is
13:43
Speaker 2: the parent is being the agent of control, right right,
13:46
Speaker 2: This parent control. But what we also can do, and
13:48
Speaker 2: one of the things we're exploring now is teaching kids
13:51
Speaker 2: to do this on their own. And so one of
13:53
Speaker 2: the strike if you look back at some of those
13:55
Speaker 2: early marshmallow studies, what you see is that some kids
13:57
Speaker 2: spontaneously do this. Some kids closed there. You can't see
14:01
Speaker 2: me now, your listeners can't see me, but I'm mimicking
14:04
Speaker 2: what they do. Some kids put their hand over their eyes.
14:07
Speaker 2: One girl had really long hair and she flipped it
14:11
Speaker 2: so she couldn't see the marshmallow in front of her.
14:14
Speaker 2: Another kid told himself a story, an elaborate story with
14:18
Speaker 2: imaginary friends. And so these are all different tools that
14:22
Speaker 2: kids are doing on their own. And so as parents,
14:25
Speaker 2: we possess the ability to essentially give kids the tools
14:29
Speaker 2: by distracting them or prompting them to think different.
14:33
Speaker 3: Hey, that person's bothering you at the schoolyard. But let's
14:35
Speaker 3: look at the big picture, Maya or Danny. You know what,
14:38
Speaker 3: they've lots of friends. You don't have to talk with
14:40
Speaker 3: that person. So we could shift their perspective. But what
14:43
Speaker 3: we can also do is we can teach children to
14:46
Speaker 3: do this on their own.
14:47
Speaker 1: If you would rattal off, let's say three self control tips,
14:51
Speaker 1: the top three that come to mind for children who
14:53
Speaker 1: was somewhere around four, five, six, seven years of age,
14:56
Speaker 1: you know, those elementary schools, those early primary school years.
15:00
Speaker 1: What kind of tips would you give parents if they
15:02
Speaker 1: want to help their kids to develop the self control
15:05
Speaker 1: to not eat the marshmallow or the pretzel or the raisin.
15:09
Speaker 1: Right where did they go?
15:11
Speaker 2: Well? I think one is attention. So teaching them how
15:14
Speaker 2: to divert their attention away from whatever's tempting them and
15:18
Speaker 2: give themselves something to focus on is even more powerful.
15:22
Speaker 2: So really get them to focus in on something that's
15:25
Speaker 2: equally engaging, but not the thing that's tempting them. So,
15:28
Speaker 2: if you don't want them to watch TV, give them
15:30
Speaker 2: a really fun buzzle to work on or something like that,
15:33
Speaker 2: or problem to work on. Another thing is changing the
15:36
Speaker 2: way they think about something. So if they're looking at
15:39
Speaker 2: the candy and they really want to eat it, ask
15:41
Speaker 2: them to imagine, well, you know, imagine that. I guess
15:45
Speaker 2: kids aren't tempted by bread. What is it candy basically
15:50
Speaker 2: mostly right, I mean, imagine that someone stepped on it,
15:53
Speaker 2: you know, or those kinds of transformations can be powerful, right,
15:58
Speaker 2: So don't think about it as a marshmallow. Think about
16:01
Speaker 2: it as a puffy cloud, right, So play with it
16:04
Speaker 2: in your head, and importantly when you play with it,
16:07
Speaker 2: don't think about the things that are most Oh my god,
16:10
Speaker 2: I'm going to think about how it's going to taste.
16:12
Speaker 2: If you've talked to your child about the negative health
16:15
Speaker 2: implications of eating too much candy, or negative health implications
16:20
Speaker 2: for a child like tummy aches, right, not feeling good after,
16:23
Speaker 2: have them think about that, so, you know, think about
16:26
Speaker 2: the fact that too many marshmallows can make you not
16:29
Speaker 2: so healthy, and that's not a good thing. You have
16:31
Speaker 2: to go to the doctor, and so forth and so on.
16:33
Speaker 2: A third strategy you can use to give you the
16:36
Speaker 2: last one is you can try something called what we've
16:40
Speaker 2: called the Batman effect. So have a child pretend find
16:46
Speaker 2: their favorite superhero. And as so, superheroes are usually generally
16:50
Speaker 2: really good at at exercising restraint, right, and being able
16:57
Speaker 2: to do good things in the world. And so in
17:00
Speaker 2: some studies, what a colleague of mind Stephanie Carlson has
17:03
Speaker 2: found is that having children imagine they're superhero, use their name,
17:09
Speaker 2: Imagine you're Batman, and say what would Batman do right now?
17:11
Speaker 2: Would Batman be able to not eat the marshmallow? Or
17:14
Speaker 2: Dora the Explorer? What would Dora do? That can be
17:18
Speaker 2: really powerful transports them into this other role which gives
17:22
Speaker 2: them some distance from the temptation and also this superpower
17:27
Speaker 2: to restrain it. And so that's been a fun strategy
17:30
Speaker 2: that kids have been able to benefit from in some experiments.
17:33
Speaker 1: I love the Batman effect, and what I really love
17:35
Speaker 1: about that piece of research is, well, first of all,
17:40
Speaker 1: we're looking at how people who speak to themselves in
17:44
Speaker 1: that sort of alter ego way, you know, what would
17:48
Speaker 1: Batman do? What would Wonder Woman do? What would the
17:50
Speaker 1: bill to do? Versus come on, Ethan, you've got this
17:54
Speaker 1: versus I know what I would do? You know, these
17:56
Speaker 1: three different conditions, And you found in this study that
17:59
Speaker 1: kids person longer. They just they had more motivation, They
18:03
Speaker 1: had a greater level of self control and tenacity. So
18:06
Speaker 1: I've been talking to adults about that and saying, when
18:08
Speaker 1: you're up against something where you don't want to exert
18:10
Speaker 1: the kind of control that's necessary, or where you're struggling,
18:12
Speaker 1: or you don't want to persevere, or you're ready to
18:15
Speaker 1: explode at your children and you just need to regulate
18:17
Speaker 1: your emotions. Don't necessarily think about what Batman would do,
18:20
Speaker 1: but think about who your inner mental mentor might be.
18:24
Speaker 1: You know, think of Ethan Cross or many people, unfortunately
18:27
Speaker 1: for me, will say that, I just think about what
18:29
Speaker 1: you would do if you or what I would do
18:31
Speaker 1: if you were watching me. I know that ancient and
18:35
Speaker 1: modern traditions have encouraged that. So there's the Christian tradition
18:38
Speaker 1: of wearing the WWJD bracelet what would Jesus do? And
18:41
Speaker 1: I think that. I mean, that's a kind of a
18:43
Speaker 1: self control strategy, really, isn't It's a psychological or self
18:46
Speaker 1: distancing strategy.
18:48
Speaker 2: Absolutely. You know this idea of distance. Really what it
18:51
Speaker 2: boils down to is that it's almost like giving yourself
18:56
Speaker 2: a time out in the moment. So it's a stability.
18:59
Speaker 2: When we experienced strong emotions, they often narrow our attention
19:03
Speaker 2: in on exactly what it is that's driving those responses,
19:07
Speaker 2: and that zooming in can make it really difficult to
19:13
Speaker 2: take the broader picture into account. If I am too
19:17
Speaker 2: intolerant with my children, how might that affect them long term?
19:20
Speaker 2: So this ability to just hit stop for a moment
19:23
Speaker 2: and zoom out can be really powerful, and there's lots
19:26
Speaker 2: of research which shows that. And in fact, this is
19:28
Speaker 2: a project that where we've been working on for the
19:31
Speaker 2: past five years. It's called the Toolbox Project. For the
19:36
Speaker 2: past ten years or so, I've been teaching a class
19:38
Speaker 2: here may a little bit less than ten years called
19:41
Speaker 2: the Science of Self Control to University Michigan undergrads, And
19:44
Speaker 2: it's essentially science's great as hits when it comes to
19:47
Speaker 2: what we've learned over the past fifty years about how
19:50
Speaker 2: to control our emotions, our thoughts, our behaviors. And it's
19:53
Speaker 2: always a really fun class to teach. The students love
19:56
Speaker 2: the material, they're engaged. And the way it works is
20:00
Speaker 2: every week students come in, they read stuff and I
20:03
Speaker 2: pepper them with questions, and then the final day we
20:07
Speaker 2: reverse the roles. They come in with questions. For me,
20:11
Speaker 2: it's their last day. Here's what's on my mind. Now
20:14
Speaker 2: that I've gone through the whole literature, I've digested it
20:16
Speaker 2: and so forth. And about five years ago, this one
20:20
Speaker 2: girl named ariel. She raised her hand like really defiantly
20:25
Speaker 2: as soon as the class started to wanting to be
20:28
Speaker 2: called on, and so I called on her, and she says,
20:31
Speaker 2: why are we learning about this now? I go, well,
20:34
Speaker 2: what do you mean? She goes, well, you know, we've
20:37
Speaker 2: gone over all of these different strategies that exist, dozens
20:41
Speaker 2: of strategies that can help us be happier, healthier, get
20:45
Speaker 2: better jobs, and so forth. Why did anyone teach us
20:48
Speaker 2: about this earlier on in life when it could have
20:50
Speaker 2: helped us, like when we were kids or adolescents. And
20:53
Speaker 2: so the first thing I said was, fear not, life
20:56
Speaker 2: is not over. You will still have opportunities to use
20:59
Speaker 2: these strategies once you leave college. But then I did
21:03
Speaker 2: something I don't want to say it was, it was
21:05
Speaker 2: slightly cowardly. I did what many politicians do when they
21:09
Speaker 2: don't have a good answer to a question. I deflected
21:13
Speaker 2: and I threw it back to the class and I said, well,
21:15
Speaker 2: what do other people think? Why why haven't you learned
21:17
Speaker 2: about this yet? And the reason I did that was
21:19
Speaker 2: because I didn't have a good answer to that question.
21:23
Speaker 2: And so it got me thinking a lot about why
21:26
Speaker 2: aren't we teaching kids about what we know about how
21:31
Speaker 2: the mind works when it comes to self control. We
21:33
Speaker 2: teach children about how the digestive system works. We teach
21:37
Speaker 2: them about geometry, we teach them about social studies. These
21:41
Speaker 2: are just concepts. These are these are topics that we
21:44
Speaker 2: think are important, and so they're in the they're in
21:46
Speaker 2: the kind of canon of what we expose them to
21:50
Speaker 2: in school. Well, the mind seems kind of important and
21:54
Speaker 2: we've learned about it, so why aren't we also teaching
21:57
Speaker 2: them about this? And so fast forward five years. What
21:59
Speaker 2: we've been doing is a group of scientists like myself
22:05
Speaker 2: have paired up with educational experts curriculum designers to essentially
22:11
Speaker 2: take the science of self control, what do we know
22:14
Speaker 2: about the different tools that exist, and we've translated that
22:18
Speaker 2: into a curriculum for middle and high school kids, so
22:21
Speaker 2: a little bit older than the ages that you were
22:24
Speaker 2: asking about. But the idea was that this was a
22:27
Speaker 2: good place to start, and so we took the science,
22:29
Speaker 2: which can be filled with complicated terms that scientists love
22:32
Speaker 2: to use, but we've made it simple and with engaging exercises.
22:37
Speaker 2: And what we're doing now is we are looking at, well,
22:41
Speaker 2: what are the implications of teaching children about these strategies.
22:45
Speaker 2: In some of our early studies we know we have
22:48
Speaker 2: dated to show that the kids who go through this curriculum,
22:52
Speaker 2: they do in fact learn the material right. So you
22:55
Speaker 2: do a test at the beginning and at the end
22:57
Speaker 2: of the curriculum their knowledge of the science of so
23:00
Speaker 2: control increases. And what we're getting ready to do with
23:02
Speaker 2: about ten thousand students next year is we're going to
23:06
Speaker 2: test to see what effect does learning about these strategies
23:10
Speaker 2: have on these students' ability to regulate themselves down the
23:15
Speaker 2: road in life. And the hypothesis the prediction is that
23:20
Speaker 2: knowing about these strategies should provide these kids with resources
23:25
Speaker 2: that they could draw upon when they need them, in
23:28
Speaker 2: the same way that knowing how to compute a percentage
23:32
Speaker 2: allows us to determine the tip when we go to
23:34
Speaker 2: a restaurant. The idea is that when a kid is
23:37
Speaker 2: angry or tempted, if they're motivated to control those urges
23:42
Speaker 2: or emotions, they should have a knowledge base to fall
23:45
Speaker 2: back on in those instances.
23:54
Speaker 1: Earlier, you defined self control. I'd like to now define
23:59
Speaker 1: emotional regulation. But I'm not sure that there's got to
24:01
Speaker 1: be an enormous difference in what you said previously. You know,
24:04
Speaker 1: that idea of harnessing your your faculties and characteristics and
24:08
Speaker 1: directing them towards a goal effectively was my summary of
24:12
Speaker 1: your your definition. Would you would you be switching that
24:14
Speaker 1: up at all for emotional regulation?
24:17
Speaker 2: You know? I don't. And a disclaimer, you know for
24:20
Speaker 2: all of all the people listening, is that scientists are
24:23
Speaker 2: really good at coming up with different terms that differ
24:28
Speaker 2: in ever so slight ways, and that could be useful
24:30
Speaker 2: when we do experiments. But I think the self includes emotions,
24:37
Speaker 2: it includes behaviors, and includes thoughts and cognitions, and so
24:41
Speaker 2: when you're talking about controlling the self, self control, to me,
24:45
Speaker 2: it's a whole kitten kaboodle. So I use the broadest
24:49
Speaker 2: definition of self control. It's aligning thoughts, feelings, and behaviors
24:53
Speaker 2: with goals. Now, now that doesn't mean that self control
24:57
Speaker 2: is always a good thing, because it means that if
24:59
Speaker 2: you have of bad goals right, the better you are at.
25:04
Speaker 2: Self control means that you can do bad things right.
25:07
Speaker 2: So for example, let's say I have the goal of
25:11
Speaker 2: of of of of committing a crime right, which might
25:15
Speaker 2: be very challenging for me to emotionally, it might be
25:19
Speaker 2: hard to hurt someone else. If I have good self control,
25:22
Speaker 2: that might help me do that. So so self control
25:24
Speaker 2: in my world is not always good, right.
25:27
Speaker 1: And our kids aren't necessarily planning on committing the any
25:31
Speaker 1: any grievous and we hope not.
25:35
Speaker 2: No, that's right, And so in all of our studies,
25:38
Speaker 2: we're giving them goals that are healthy goals. Of course,
25:41
Speaker 2: I think that's in most of cases. That's where self
25:43
Speaker 2: control is being hardness towards.
25:45
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated though, by this idea that self control can
25:48
Speaker 1: sometimes be a bad thing, and it's not necessarily just
25:51
Speaker 1: in pursuit of negative goals. Sometimes that self control can
25:54
Speaker 1: also become counterproductive when our children become so rigid and
25:59
Speaker 1: so focused, and we as adults as well, we become
26:01
Speaker 1: so focused on something that is good and worthy and useful,
26:07
Speaker 1: but it's actually going to come at such an extraordinary cost,
26:11
Speaker 1: and our life gets out of balance. You know, there's
26:13
Speaker 1: all this Angela Duckworth, who I know you've worked with
26:17
Speaker 1: her work around being gritty and persevering through tough times.
26:21
Speaker 1: Paul Tough wrote a book called How Children Succeed. It
26:23
Speaker 1: was all about teaching kids grit, making sure that they
26:26
Speaker 1: do the hard yards. And there's obviously a very strong
26:29
Speaker 1: argument for having that gritty determination and perseverance, having the
26:33
Speaker 1: self controlled, but there's also a pretty strong argument about
26:37
Speaker 1: having the wisdom to know when to step back and
26:40
Speaker 1: just let go. Can you talk a little bit about
26:42
Speaker 1: why self control isn't always the most important thing, or
26:46
Speaker 1: isn't always going to be functional and optimal for our
26:48
Speaker 1: children or for ourselves.
26:50
Speaker 2: So many things are interesting about what you said. I mean,
26:53
Speaker 2: this idea of wisdom is stepping back, right, There is
26:55
Speaker 2: another illustration of the value of distance, disability to step
26:59
Speaker 2: back and tick, take stock of what you're going through
27:01
Speaker 2: and then decide how to behave I think your question
27:04
Speaker 2: speaks to this issue of that human beings are complicated.
27:10
Speaker 2: We are not driven to achieve one goal. We live
27:13
Speaker 2: in a world filled with multiple goals, right, so goals
27:16
Speaker 2: to succeed at work but also to succeed in our
27:18
Speaker 2: personal lives. And those goals don't always conflict. As many
27:23
Speaker 2: people know who are trudging away at work at eight
27:25
Speaker 2: pm when they might want to be home with their family,
27:29
Speaker 2: and so there are trade offs that we are constantly
27:32
Speaker 2: trying to maintain it take stock of and balance and
27:37
Speaker 2: so forth, and it gets complicated. So, you know, although
27:42
Speaker 2: most of our experiments focus on one goal, that's not
27:45
Speaker 2: the world in which we live. And I think people
27:48
Speaker 2: who are better able to balance all of the different
27:51
Speaker 2: goals that are on their plates and manage them accordingly
27:57
Speaker 2: are more likely to be in a position to be
28:00
Speaker 2: living the kind of life they ultimately want.
28:02
Speaker 1: Who are these perfect people? Where are they? How do
28:05
Speaker 1: we study them?
28:06
Speaker 2: They're in Australia, of course, of course, So I think
28:10
Speaker 2: this is you know, this is unfortunately where a lot
28:12
Speaker 2: of the science stops right now, because most of the
28:17
Speaker 2: work we do and thus far has been studying specific
28:21
Speaker 2: goals under tightly controlled conditions. And the reason for that
28:25
Speaker 2: is it's much harder conceptually and practically to do experiments
28:30
Speaker 2: when there are seventeen goals that are all conflicting. So
28:33
Speaker 2: I wish I could tell you who these people are.
28:35
Speaker 2: There are likely exemplars that we could find and then
28:38
Speaker 2: try to study in the same way that we Sometimes,
28:42
Speaker 2: you know, one approach to science is finding people who
28:44
Speaker 2: are really good at something, you know, the Michael Jordans
28:47
Speaker 2: of their industries, and then trying to figure out what
28:51
Speaker 2: makes them tick and then you run experiments on them.
28:54
Speaker 2: But to my in my mind, we haven't yet done
28:57
Speaker 2: that on the exemplars of self control.
29:00
Speaker 1: I think that it's a really interesting conversation though, and
29:02
Speaker 1: I know we're kind of going off script a little
29:04
Speaker 1: bit here, but to me, this idea that some parents
29:08
Speaker 1: will take a conversation about self control and say, Okay,
29:11
Speaker 1: well I want my child to get into this university
29:14
Speaker 1: course or have this opportunity in life, or just you've
29:18
Speaker 1: got to learn self control. Because the dun Eden study
29:21
Speaker 1: showed the children who learn self control do better at school,
29:23
Speaker 1: and they're less likely ended up in prison, and they're
29:25
Speaker 1: going to have more successful marriages. You know, this was
29:27
Speaker 1: this thirty plus year study of how self control is
29:31
Speaker 1: associated with all these positive outcomes. So we've got to
29:34
Speaker 1: teach your self control and all of a sudden life
29:36
Speaker 1: becomes too controlled. Whether it's pursuing academics or whether it's
29:43
Speaker 1: pursuing the extracurricular things like piano or ballet or whatever
29:48
Speaker 1: that thing is that our children are doing outside, you know,
29:51
Speaker 1: becoming an Olympian swimmer, whatever it might be.
29:56
Speaker 2: Well, I think a big part of that equation has
29:58
Speaker 2: to do with number one, what you as a parent
30:03
Speaker 2: and the child the value right because our goals right, Like,
30:07
Speaker 2: so what are the goals that we have and which
30:11
Speaker 2: are most important to us? There are going to be
30:14
Speaker 2: people out there who, for them, the most important thing
30:17
Speaker 2: is getting into that desired college or getting that job.
30:21
Speaker 2: And if that's the case, you can make an argument
30:25
Speaker 2: that helping that child fulfill that goal is really important.
30:30
Speaker 2: But let's say people have multiple goals like that are important.
30:32
Speaker 2: I'm not just getting into the best school, but also
30:35
Speaker 2: having great relationships and enjoying the moment. Well, that would
30:39
Speaker 2: suggests a different course of action. I mean, look, I
30:42
Speaker 2: study this stuff. I'm a presumed expert on this topic,
30:45
Speaker 2: and I'd be lying if I told you that my
30:48
Speaker 2: wife and I are constantly doing a kind of of
30:53
Speaker 2: self and family evaluation of our kids, their goals, our goals,
30:58
Speaker 2: and how we can give them the best possibility of
31:03
Speaker 2: living a happy life. Like we want them to be
31:04
Speaker 2: successful more than that, we want them to be happy.
31:07
Speaker 2: And you know, I think we are stumbling our way
31:11
Speaker 2: through like many parents with forward progress. Of course, if
31:16
Speaker 2: we invite my and Danny on the podcast, they might
31:19
Speaker 2: say something different. The first step is being mindful of this.
31:24
Speaker 2: Simply being aware that life isn't driven much of the
31:29
Speaker 2: time by one goal, but by many is an important
31:32
Speaker 2: insight that can be useful for helping parents think about
31:36
Speaker 2: how they want to structure their kids' activities and lives
31:41
Speaker 2: given these multiple goals that they may have for their
31:44
Speaker 2: kids and that their kids may have for themselves.
31:47
Speaker 1: Ethan, I appreciate the vulnerability and you, I guess confessing
31:50
Speaker 1: outing up to the fact that you're kind of making
31:53
Speaker 1: it up as you go along, even if you've got
31:55
Speaker 1: the professorship in psychology, because I feel the same way.
31:59
Speaker 3: You know.
32:00
Speaker 1: I've written six books, I've got the PhD in positive psychology,
32:03
Speaker 1: I've run a bajillion seminars on this stuff, and there
32:06
Speaker 1: are days where I look at my wife and say,
32:08
Speaker 1: I don't have a clue how we're supposed to manage it.
32:13
Speaker 1: You tell me, and she'll look at me and as hell,
32:14
Speaker 1: you're the expert you told me. I'm like, I don't know. Anyway,
32:17
Speaker 1: let's move towards a conclusion. There's a couple of other
32:20
Speaker 1: questions that I want to ask you before we get
32:22
Speaker 1: to my five questions that always wrap up every podcast.
32:27
Speaker 1: Something that strikes me as vitally important is that emotions
32:31
Speaker 1: are contagious. Kids catch their parents cranky, they catch our chaos,
32:35
Speaker 1: they catch our crazy, but they also catch how calm.
32:39
Speaker 1: The same strategies that we've discussed for younger children, I'm
32:42
Speaker 1: sure that they work for adults as well for parents.
32:45
Speaker 1: But I'm curious if there's anything else that you would
32:47
Speaker 1: add here. How else can parents stay calm and appropriately regulated?
32:53
Speaker 1: What strategies would you share for parents who are just
32:56
Speaker 1: over it some afternoons or evenings or mornings.
33:00
Speaker 2: I tell you about the strategies that some of the ones,
33:02
Speaker 2: some of my favorites that I rely on. Because there's
33:05
Speaker 2: a boltload of strategies there at least a dozen two
33:07
Speaker 2: dozen out there that have science behind it. We don't
33:09
Speaker 2: have time to get into them all, but let me
33:12
Speaker 2: tell you what I do. One thing I do is
33:14
Speaker 2: I will rely on that linguistic distancing. So when I'm
33:17
Speaker 2: in the heat of the moment, I'm anxious or I'm angry,
33:20
Speaker 2: I will use my name silently to think about what
33:23
Speaker 2: I'm going through.
33:24
Speaker 1: Ethan's ed, why are you talking to yourself in the
33:28
Speaker 1: first person? What's going on here?
33:30
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, definitely you definitely want to do that silently.
33:33
Speaker 2: That's an important caveat, and that's helpful. Another thing I'll
33:37
Speaker 2: do is something that we call temporal distancing jargon. Again,
33:41
Speaker 2: think of it as mental time travel. This can be
33:44
Speaker 2: a very powerful tool. I'll imagine about how am I
33:48
Speaker 2: going to feel about this thing, not right now, but
33:51
Speaker 2: a week from now, or a month from now, or
33:53
Speaker 2: a year from now as you age. One of the
33:55
Speaker 2: things I think many people learn is that many times
34:00
Speaker 2: time does heal. Right. Our emotions go up, but inevitably
34:04
Speaker 2: they do come down right. Our own personal news cycle
34:08
Speaker 2: is constantly running, just like it is out there in
34:11
Speaker 2: the media. New things come in to our lives right,
34:14
Speaker 2: and our emotions of side. So I'll remind myself about
34:18
Speaker 2: the fact that, you know what, I'll probably feel fine
34:19
Speaker 2: about this argument at work a week later. And then
34:23
Speaker 2: the last thing I'll do is I'll take a walk
34:26
Speaker 2: out in nature. There's some gorgeous data showing how simple
34:30
Speaker 2: exposures to green space can be remarkably powerful for calming
34:36
Speaker 2: us down and restoring the psychological resources that we often
34:41
Speaker 2: need to remain in control. And so that's my trio
34:44
Speaker 2: of strategies that I rely on Ethan.
34:47
Speaker 1: So many questions that I want to ask you, but
34:49
Speaker 1: time's going to get the better of this, So I'm
34:51
Speaker 1: going to completely switch gears for one final question, and
34:56
Speaker 1: this relates to your work that you've done around social
34:58
Speaker 1: media and wellbeing. We alluded earlier that we might get
35:02
Speaker 1: to this, and I really want to bring this up.
35:04
Speaker 1: So recently I spoke with Sarah Coyn at Brigham Young
35:06
Speaker 1: University had a fascinating conversation with her around what she's
35:12
Speaker 1: been discovering in her research to do with the lack
35:15
Speaker 1: of control that both parents and children often feel in
35:19
Speaker 1: relation to their media being consumed. But also she highlighted
35:24
Speaker 1: something that Andy Shobulski at Oxford has highlighted, and that
35:27
Speaker 1: is that there doesn't seem to be any tremendous wellbeing
35:30
Speaker 1: downsides from reasonable amounts of device and technology usage. What
35:35
Speaker 1: I'd love to know is what does your research say
35:38
Speaker 1: about social media wellbeing and in particularly what does it
35:42
Speaker 1: say for young people and how does this all weave
35:44
Speaker 1: back into the self control conversation?
35:48
Speaker 2: Easy question, So this is a you know, I've been
35:54
Speaker 2: doing researching this space for about ten years and it's
35:56
Speaker 2: been really interesting to see it evolved. It is very
35:58
Speaker 2: contentious right now. Number one, I think we need to
36:03
Speaker 2: not talk about social media or digital screen time as
36:08
Speaker 2: this monolithic activity, right that's either good or bad. There
36:13
Speaker 2: are countless ways that people can use social media, and
36:18
Speaker 2: if you break down different ways of using it, what
36:21
Speaker 2: you see is just like in everyday life, there are
36:24
Speaker 2: helpful versus harmful ways of interacting with other people. The
36:28
Speaker 2: same is true of social media, and so a lot
36:31
Speaker 2: of the things that we do on social media can
36:33
Speaker 2: be good for us, help build social capital and social connections.
36:37
Speaker 2: A lot of the things can be totally benign, have
36:39
Speaker 2: no implications on how we feel, and yet there can
36:42
Speaker 2: be other ways that we interact with social media that
36:44
Speaker 2: tank our emotions. For example, think about things like cyber
36:48
Speaker 2: bullying and trolling, which are really quite significant phenomena that
36:55
Speaker 2: have a ton of data behind them. Right The consequences
36:58
Speaker 2: of being cyberbullied can be extreme. The kinds of fomo
37:01
Speaker 2: experiences and envy that we experience when we look at
37:05
Speaker 2: people's curated lives online. So there are many different ways
37:09
Speaker 2: that we connect with the technology, and I think you
37:11
Speaker 2: can ask questions about well does time on screen lead
37:15
Speaker 2: people to feel good? Or bad. And I think Sarah's
37:19
Speaker 2: right that on the whole that data show well, overall
37:23
Speaker 2: usage small negative effect on well being, but it's a
37:26
Speaker 2: really small effect. But if you break things down into
37:31
Speaker 2: different ways of using the technology, what you find is
37:35
Speaker 2: that they're healthy and harmful ways of using it. And
37:38
Speaker 2: I think the challenge for parents is to figure out
37:41
Speaker 2: what those are so that they can teach their kids
37:44
Speaker 2: how to navigate social media optimally. In the same way
37:48
Speaker 2: that we spend much of our parenting life teaching our
37:52
Speaker 2: children how to navigate the offline world optimally, the same
37:56
Speaker 2: is true, I would argue for social media.
37:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we've got the way I talk to parents
38:00
Speaker 1: about this is I'll describe three c's. There's connection, there's consumption,
38:03
Speaker 1: there's creation when we're online. And my read of it,
38:07
Speaker 1: and certainly your conversation just now underscores and reemphasizes this,
38:11
Speaker 1: is that when we're using it for consumption or for
38:14
Speaker 1: other negative purposes, which is certainly not effective for connection
38:19
Speaker 1: or creation, we can actually end up with the strong downside.
38:25
Speaker 1: But if we're using it for connection, we're using it
38:27
Speaker 1: for creation, we're probably going to have positive experiences online,
38:30
Speaker 1: and then it just comes down to regulation. Am I
38:32
Speaker 1: able to get off so that I can get enough sleep?
38:34
Speaker 1: Am I able to get off so that there's no
38:36
Speaker 1: impact on my physical well being? I can still go
38:39
Speaker 1: and be a human? It sounds so sensible when you
38:41
Speaker 1: say it like that, Ethan.
38:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, no, I totally agree. And you know
38:47
Speaker 2: what I tell people is that, look, social media, it's
38:50
Speaker 2: a new ecosystem that we interact in. It's a new environment,
38:55
Speaker 2: and environments aren't good or bad, right, It depends on
38:57
Speaker 2: how you engage with the envite that determines the implications
39:01
Speaker 2: it has for your emotional life. And I think if
39:04
Speaker 2: you look at the evidence, you find evidence to support
39:07
Speaker 2: that idea as well.
39:08
Speaker 1: So yeah, right, well, thanks so much. Let's move towards
39:12
Speaker 1: the conclusion. You've got a book coming out soon. Would
39:15
Speaker 1: you like to tell us a bit about that book.
39:17
Speaker 2: Yes, the book coming out. It's called Chatter, The Voice
39:21
Speaker 2: in Our Head, Why It Matters and How to Harness It,
39:24
Speaker 2: And it's coming out next January, and it talks about
39:27
Speaker 2: a lot of the work that we've talked about on
39:29
Speaker 2: this podcast, but goes deeper, namely, why is it that
39:35
Speaker 2: our ability to think about our lives sometimes can be
39:38
Speaker 2: an incredible superpower, but at other times, tank our mood
39:42
Speaker 2: and our relationships, and importantly, what are the tools that
39:45
Speaker 2: we possessed to master that ability to introspect?
39:51
Speaker 1: That sounds amazing. Available for pre order all soon.
39:54
Speaker 2: It's available for pre order. It's on Amazon and all
39:57
Speaker 2: of well, it's on Amazon. I don't know about all
40:00
Speaker 2: the other sites yet because I'm a first time author,
40:02
Speaker 2: but I know you can find it on Amazon, and yeah,
40:05
Speaker 2: pre order is available.
40:07
Speaker 1: Congratulations, Chatter Chatter. I love the sound of that. It
40:10
Speaker 1: sounds brilliant. To wrap up the podcast, I always ask
40:13
Speaker 1: five questions of all of my guests. Everyone gets the
40:16
Speaker 1: same ones, and they're supposed to be reasonably rapid fire,
40:19
Speaker 1: but if you want to expand on any sometimes we
40:22
Speaker 1: hear some of our most compelling and delightful stories. So
40:25
Speaker 1: question number one Ethan Cross. If we asked your two
40:28
Speaker 1: daughters what their favorite thing to do with you is,
40:31
Speaker 1: what would they tell.
40:32
Speaker 2: Us take all time before bed, cooking dinner together, and
40:38
Speaker 2: traveling to exciting places which don't mean exotic, but exciting beautiful.
40:44
Speaker 1: What's been your trickiest parenting moment and don't tell me
40:48
Speaker 1: that it was that marshmallow experiment where your daughter wanted
40:51
Speaker 1: the bonuses.
40:53
Speaker 2: Now, my trickiest moment has been seeing my children deal
40:59
Speaker 2: with emotional hardship that the source of which is out
41:02
Speaker 2: of my control, So when other kids are being mean
41:04
Speaker 2: to them, and just knowing that inevitably there's going to
41:10
Speaker 2: be more of that in store for them as they
41:12
Speaker 2: live their lives, and just trying to help them as
41:17
Speaker 2: I experience their pain, which is not pleasant but probably
41:21
Speaker 2: a good thing.
41:22
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's interesting how many people will offer some
41:25
Speaker 1: kind of a response along those lines. Watching our children
41:28
Speaker 1: struggle seems to be an almost universally agreed upon challenge
41:32
Speaker 1: that they no parent wants, and yet every parent knows
41:35
Speaker 1: how important that is. It seems to teach them everything
41:39
Speaker 1: that they need to know about being a great human. Ongoingly,
41:42
Speaker 1: Question number three ethan, if you could spend an hour
41:44
Speaker 1: with your two daughters at any age at all, so
41:47
Speaker 1: you know tomorrow afternoon they walk in the door and
41:49
Speaker 1: they're waiting for you in the living room at that age,
41:53
Speaker 1: what age would you pick?
41:54
Speaker 2: And why I would take their current age? And the
41:57
Speaker 2: reason for that is I've found every age to equally
42:01
Speaker 2: awe inspiring and fun and so, and I'm sure that'll continue.
42:06
Speaker 2: So their current age.
42:09
Speaker 1: No matter how wonderful their current age is and how
42:12
Speaker 1: glad you are to be in the moment, what are
42:14
Speaker 1: you looking forward to most as a dad?
42:17
Speaker 2: Seeing them succeed at whatever they choose to devote themselves to,
42:22
Speaker 2: seeing them make a mark on the world in some way,
42:27
Speaker 2: you know. Seeing my oldest daughter, she recently did community
42:30
Speaker 2: theater and it was important to her, and I've never
42:32
Speaker 2: done any kind of theater, but seeing her get up
42:34
Speaker 2: on the stage and singing dance was just remarkable to
42:37
Speaker 2: see how she had achieved what was important for her.
42:41
Speaker 2: And so just watching them both pursue their goals and
42:45
Speaker 2: hopefully accomplish them, and if not, learning from them and
42:48
Speaker 2: finding new ones something I look forward to brilliant.
42:52
Speaker 1: And the last question, if you could go back to
42:53
Speaker 1: Ethan Cross as a very young dad having one of
42:56
Speaker 1: those terribly tough moments, with no experience at all as
43:00
Speaker 1: a parenting expert, and maybe even without the PhD in
43:04
Speaker 1: self control and psychology, what advice would you give yourself?
43:08
Speaker 2: I would to be less hard on myself and to
43:13
Speaker 2: likewise remember that incredible mental time travel machine that we
43:17
Speaker 2: all possess. I think when my kids were young and
43:20
Speaker 2: parenting was new to me, you can get carried away
43:25
Speaker 2: with what's happening and not knowing when, when will the
43:29
Speaker 2: sleepless nights end and so forth, and so just knowing
43:32
Speaker 2: that things will get better as time goes on would
43:37
Speaker 2: have been powerful to have a reminder of back then.
43:41
Speaker 1: Well, Ethan, it's just been an absolute pleasure to talk
43:44
Speaker 1: with you. So grateful for your generous sharing and your wisdom.
43:48
Speaker 1: Thank you for being a part of the Parenting in
43:50
Speaker 1: Perspective podcast.
43:53
Speaker 2: Wonderful. Thank you so much. What a fun conversation. So
43:56
Speaker 2: I hope we can do it again.
43:58
Speaker 1: Well, what a fascinating I hope you've gotten some insight
44:01
Speaker 1: into Professor Ethan Cross as a result of this podcast.
44:05
Speaker 1: As I said at the beginning of the podcast, I
44:07
Speaker 1: just love the fact that he's linked to this all
44:09
Speaker 1: time classic marsh Mellow experiment and the work of Walter Mitchell,
44:13
Speaker 1: one of the most important psychologists of the modern era.
44:17
Speaker 1: Just a quick reminder as well. I can't emphasize this enough.
44:19
Speaker 1: And Ethan also made the point if you're going to
44:22
Speaker 1: try that experiment on your own children, their destiny is
44:25
Speaker 1: not linked directly to the decision that they make about
44:28
Speaker 1: the marsh Mellow. What we want to do is make
44:31
Speaker 1: sure that they learn how to self control better, because
44:34
Speaker 1: the more self control they have in healthy doses, the
44:37
Speaker 1: better it will be in their lives. Okay, if you're
44:40
Speaker 1: enjoying the podcast and you reckon it's worth sharing with
44:42
Speaker 1: other people, could you help out and leave us that
44:45
Speaker 1: five star review and a comment. Please. The comments and
44:47
Speaker 1: the reviews and the five star ratings they help other
44:50
Speaker 1: people to find out about the podcast and find ways
44:53
Speaker 1: that they can be more informed and make their families
44:54
Speaker 1: happier and more flourishing. The Happy Families podcast is produced
44:58
Speaker 1: by Justin Ruland from Bridge Meeting. More information and more
45:01
Speaker 1: resources to make your family happier are available at happy
45:05
Speaker 1: families dot com dot mm hmm