Latest / Love Letters to Troublemakers / E10. Corporate Wellness Theater

Transcript

E10. Corporate Wellness Theater · Love Letters to Troublemakers

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There's some people that do believe in the work and personal
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boundary where they're like, your work is your work life and
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your personal life is your personal life.
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And when you open your computer, everything that ceases to be in
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your personal life doesn't actually show up at work.
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That's like so false. That's like so false.
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And you have got to be not paying attention if you think
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that the stress that you're causing your employees at work
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doesn't manifest elsewhere in their lives.
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Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the Circle Back Club.
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I'm Lars Gallian and I'm here as always with my lovely Co host
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Aparna Ray. And this is a podcast for white
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collar workers who have ever suspected the problem isn't us
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and want to do something about it.
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We started this project really to say out loud what workers are
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thinking and not saying in the all hands meetings, performance
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reviews, emails that start with as we navigate this challenging
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time or my favorite, now more than ever and now more than
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ever, we need to talk about Wellness.
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Specifically, we're asking whether the entire workplace
1:15
Wellness industry ABS the stipends, the medication or
1:20
medication we wish, the meditation subscriptions, the
1:23
resilience trainings, are they actually helping anyone?
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Or is it just a really expensive way for companies to avoid
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measuring and addressing the real problem?
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We're asking today, whose problem is it really?
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And our guest today is Heba Youssef.
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She's the Chief People Officer at Work Week and the founder of
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I Hate It Here, which is, to be honest, you guys the only HR
1:48
newsletter I read. It's actually so really fun and
1:52
it's so good. Your Instagram page is great.
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You've LED people teams at fintech startups and media
2:00
companies. You write regularly and publicly
2:02
about the gap between what HR says and what HR does, and we
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are so glad to have you here. I'm honored to be here.
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I hope I, I hope I surprise and delight everybody with some of
2:13
the things I'm going to say today and maybe make people
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laugh. My goal is to laugh through the
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pain of this job. We expect nothing less.
2:23
So I want to start with asking you both about your experience
2:27
of Wellness at work. You know, what sort of things
2:29
have you participated in or even championed or implemented?
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And hey, well, we'll go with you first.
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OK, so personally, I'll start the personal story because I
2:37
think it's pretty important because it really makes my
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judgement around Wellness very clear.
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So in 2019 I lost my father and in 2022 I lost my brother.
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They both had heart attacks, and my brother was very young.
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He was 42. So it was very triggering and
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traumatizing for me. It was my first real experience
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with, like, big loss in my life. Like I'd lost an uncle
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previously and grandparents, but no one as near and dear close to
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my heart as my dad and my brother.
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And I was really struggling in the workplace.
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I was like, holy cow, I don't know what to do.
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I've never been to therapy. Therapy is like very stigmatized
3:06
in the Arab community. In fact, I one time asked my mom
3:09
to go to therapy and she just like kind of laughed.
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Now we're actively trying to get her into more therapy honestly,
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but it's possible. I got my mom into therapy after
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I lost my brother and yeah. It's very hard.
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It's very hard. I think my mom was like, I've
3:23
overcome so much. Like, why do I need a
3:25
professional to talk to about overcoming this one next thing?
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And I think she's opened up to it quite a bit.
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But I had never been to therapy. I didn't know how to pursue
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therapy. But my boss, who had also lost
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her father. So I was like, struggling really
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hard at work. And she's like, hey, I really
3:38
need you to get help. And I was like, I don't know how
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to get help. Like, I literally was like, I
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don't know what to do. And so she sent me to our EAP,
3:44
which I used for like, the first time as an employee.
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And if you've ever used an EAP, they ask you a lot of like,
3:48
really serious questions at first to assess what kind of
3:51
risk you are to get you the help you need.
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And it was like, really scary too.
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So I was like, oh, my God, who gets the answers to these
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questions? Like, does my boss know?
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And at the time I was in HR so I, I shared the saying like,
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that was my first experience with our EAP and I was in HR
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someone who went and told people like, Oh, you could use our EAP.
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So I went through the whole experience like getting therapy,
4:08
trying to get my insurance to cover it, my insurance not
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covering it, finding a therapy in network out of network was
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the whole thing. And it really like irritated me.
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I was like, I'm trying to actively get help to work on
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this really serious thing that like is like impacting my work
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and I have to jump through all these hoops.
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And after that experience, I kind of worked really hard every
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other place I went after that to make our benefit offering like
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the easiest and most frictionless one to use.
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But I still think there's like a major gap between employees
4:34
needing help and actually getting the help because of all
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the hoops we sometimes have to jump through to get coverage.
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Care. The EAP situation, even if you
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call your EAP today, they're going to ask you those serious.
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It can be scary for anybody who's never pursued help.
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And so I think, like, as an HR leader, my job is to make it as
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frictionless as possible simply because I experienced it and
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thought it was pretty bad myself.
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Yeah. That is that's.
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Yeah, I think coming back to work after loss is already so
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hard. And then you're, you know, like
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not knowing how to use the services or even what they are
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and that what you're going to be out of pocket is so hard.
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Lars, what about you? Well, now I'm reflecting on
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being at work after loss and have I'm so sorry for the
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back-to-back. That's yeah, and grief is weird
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and doesn't know time. Yeah, yeah, being at work after
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having someone die is so weird because it's like, why doesn't
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everyone isn't everyone grieving?
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Why aren't we? Can't we stop everything?
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So yeah, I'm just feeling that. Sorry to come off hard with my
5:38
grief, but I I try to talk about it as much as possible 'cause I
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just think people are so scared to say they're not OK.
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And I'm kind of one of the first people who's like, I am not.
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Well, let me tell you why. Like I'm still trying to
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actively process grief from years ago while navigating a
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world that just feels more increasingly, increasingly like
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unsafe for anybody who's struggling with anything.
5:57
Yes, yeah, yeah. No, my, my thank you was
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genuine. That's that's real.
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Well, let me, I'll share a sillier side of this.
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So my former employee was Nike and I was part of the Nike
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Mindfulness Club and our job our goal.
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I can't stop lying laughing because of my campus when you
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were like testing those like airsoft sneakers.
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I just want to be like, they weren't like just do it.
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Like that wasn't just that was that wasn't mindfulness.
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Just do it. Let's do it.
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I'd be so embarrassing if I worked there because I would add
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that to every sentence. Oh, you're sad.
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Just do it. Just do it.
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Oh my God. We were we were trying to just
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do it with with like campus wide meditation, sound baths and it
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was it was really cool to meet with people and do actual
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meditation and practice at work. It was also a mess because
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you're in a large corporation, so you're like, what's the
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business case? Let's get an executive sponsor.
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How do we scale this? Half of us were in HR, but we
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had no influence in creating programming like this in HR.
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How do we get people to do a 10 second breathing exercise before
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meetings? Is that going to help?
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It was it was hard, it was weird.
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You know, it's like because, and I think we're going to talk
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about this today of it was still from the approach of the
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personal versus the collective. And so it was just scaling a
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business effort, but insert sound bass, you know, and so
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that that was hard. It was weird, but I still have
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my shirt and we did some cool things.
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So I'm proud of it too. What about you, Parnik?
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Yeah. So, you know, when I think about
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workplace Wellness, the thing that comes up for me is like my
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experience of having W2 jobs in my 20s.
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And I've been an entrepreneur for a long time.
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So I, you know, notably have not had W2 unemployment for a long
8:04
time. But in my 20s, I worked at two
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different organizations that did some variation of a fitness or a
8:10
weight loss challenge. And it was tied.
8:13
It was tied to your health insurance.
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It was tied to your health insurance.
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You know, it was like, you can get a break on your premium if
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you participate in this fitness challenge.
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And this is like early days of us having like smartphones and
8:27
smartwatches. And yeah, the just kind of the
8:33
stress as being, I've always been a little chubby and this
8:39
was so stressful. But they would literally bring
8:42
in fitness instructors and they would be like a staff like 6:30
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or 7:00 AM group fitness statement that you would
8:50
regularly be invited to participate in.
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But I would say even as recently as 2019, that's my den business
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partner wanted to do a holiday weight loss challenge.
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And this is OK. Welcome to the circle black club
9:07
where we talk about losing siblings.
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But this was literally a month after my brother had passed away
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and I was already at like the lowest weight I had ever.
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And I, you know, I think back to this moment where I was like,
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why was my business partner suggesting we do a company wide
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weight loss challenge in the month of December?
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Anyways, since then, I've definitely, I think even more
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than therapy, where I've found a lot of healing is in this
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podcast called Maintenance Phase.
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And if you all have never listened to this podcast, it is
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the funniest one. And they've done multiple
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episodes on workplace Wellness and especially in Fortune 1000
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companies tying health insurance to employees losing weight and
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working out. It's just so it is so insane.
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But today, Hibel with you, we actually want to talk about, you
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know, Wellness with an HHR insider, right?
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Because maintenance phase and other podcasts like that,
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they're for sure outsiders. And yeah, thoughts before we
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move on. First of all, the episode of The
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Office where they all try to do the weight loss challenge.
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But like, I too have been at organizations, they're like
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everyone can join this fitness club and we'll track this and
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track your sleep and track your weight.
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And I'm like, first of all, that's like none of your
10:27
business. Second of all, like I grew up in
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the era of if you were like the the thinness was very in when I
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was growing up and I was not the, the thin.
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I was like athletic built like had curves before I even
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understood like sexualization of women.
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Like there's so many interesting things that like impacted how I
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experienced the world growing up.
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To only get to like your professional years where you
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think like this is it. People are really going to get
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me. Like we're going to go to like a
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different level to then have your company be like, we should
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all lose weight together. I'm like, how about no?
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About we. Don't do that together.
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So it is interesting seeing that 'cause when I entered the
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workforce, that was very much the trend, right?
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Like, let's talk about fitness and Wellness from a sense of how
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thin and in shape you are. And I do feel like the
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conversation has evolved so much since then.
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And like COVID, I think, like rocked us where I was like, oh,
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everybody's suddenly at home. Oh, we're all collectively
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having kind of like a breakdown with how we've always operated
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to how we're going to have to operate in a post pandemic
11:24
world. And I think that brought more
11:26
and more conversations to light around Wellness being more than
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how much do you weigh and how fast can you run?
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It's like, how were you taking care of like your mind, your
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body, your spirit, It it all became like an encompassing
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conversation. So like when I think about
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Wellness now as HR, I'm not thinking about like how much do
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my employees weigh? I'm actually thinking about
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like, how are we supporting their brains is like kind of
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where I'm at, especially where we've seen like mental health
11:49
has been at AI feel like an all time low.
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Like we have seen more instances of really awful things happening
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in the world and and there's been so much job loss over the
11:57
last few years that it's messing with like the psyche of
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everybody. When I'm approaching programs,
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my first thought is how are we supporting the mind of our
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employees? Are we giving them a place to
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feel safe to say I need help or not?
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And I think that's the conversation a lot of HR teams
12:11
try to have. Where I see it go sideways a lot
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is when it comes back to being tied to business impact 'cause I
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that's like a weird conversation to have.
12:20
No, like, hey, we're going to launch this mental health
12:22
initiative, get people access to therapy.
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It's going to make our business better.
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That just feels like such a weird concept.
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But all the studies show, like when you invest in that stuff
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and your healthcare costs actually go down.
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So it's like, how do you as an HR person try to walk into that
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conversation and not just make it about the business and
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actually make it about the people?
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So like that's a little bit about what I've observed over
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the last like 15 ish years. And the things that I'm excited
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about today are how are we actually supporting the
12:48
employees? Are they really using the
12:50
benefit or not? If they're not using the
12:51
benefit, why are we offering it? Like maybe they need something
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else? OK, you've already jumped the
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gun with the health bees. Sorry, sorry, I could never I'm
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I'm just thinking about like a weight, a weight loss thing
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right now would be just a wild situation like I I but.
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But it's not totally wild, right?
13:12
Because now employers are offering GLP ones.
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They. Bring employees in right it and
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I 10 years ago fertility benefits were that carrot where
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you know folks were like oh you don't want to spend $30,000 on
13:26
IVF that's a benefit we offer and now it's like oh you don't
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want to spend $30,000 on GLP ones that's the benefit that
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we're offering so. It's, I'm so torn on this one
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'cause I just made a TikTok about how Deloitte is scaling
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back some of their benefits. It's like just broke news last
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week where for internal staff, if they're not revenue driving,
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they cut benefits like the $50,000 benefit for IVF or
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adoption. They cut their parental leave
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from 16 weeks to 8 weeks. They're not doing pension
13:53
accruals for 2026. And there's they cut some of
13:55
their PTL And in the comments of this TikTok that I made,
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somebody was like, I work for an employer and they had offered
14:01
GLP one up until this year. They said they're not going to
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offer them moving forward and I do.
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I do think like the GLP one coverage conversation is really
14:08
interesting. The reason I've seen employers
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cut it is because it's so expensive for the overall
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healthcare cost for the company. They've like done the analysis
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and they're like, it's too expensive and we're actually
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seeing our benefit costs go down.
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But you're right, is, is GLP one coverage?
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Is it weight related? We all know like the more
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overweight you are, the more likely you are to have 12345
14:28
diseases. It's directly related, like your
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cardio, cardiac health, your heart health.
14:31
So I'm not sorry, I'm not a doctor nor my GLP one expert,
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but I do think like that conversation around should
14:37
health insurance cover that or not is a really interesting one
14:40
because it's had impacts on like addiction, people's diabetes,
14:44
obviously. But I think it is such an
14:47
interesting drug that we're going to learn more and more
14:48
about and how it impacts people could be wildly different.
14:51
It's been known to help with people with like PCOS and like,
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so there's there's expanding research around it.
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That's not even a word. I just made that up, but GLP
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ones I don't. That shouldn't be this
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conversation, but it is really interesting to have that one.
15:04
Well, let's talk about the industry itself too.
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Like just how much is in this industry market wise?
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It's $60 billion. The workplace Wellness industry
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itself. Crazy.
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And that's not health insurance like that.
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That does not include health insurance.
15:20
Right, right. And to your point, have a like,
15:23
burnout rates are climbing. You know, the low estimate is
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50% of all workers in the US are suffering from burnout.
15:30
And in a couple episodes ago, we talked to a really, really
15:35
interesting org psychologist, Dr. Nicole Dekay, who was like,
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burnout is another way to say workplace depression.
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You know, that's, that's what's actually happening.
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And I know. I'm writing that down, actually,
15:46
because like, that is, that's good.
15:48
Well. She, she literally, she
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basically was like, you know, by calling it burnout, we've taken
15:51
the responsibility away from having to address the fact that
15:54
we're giving people like really acute depression because the
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symptoms of burnout. I mean that Venn diagram is a
16:00
circle with depression. Yeah.
16:03
And I think for what we can talk about, I'm sure we're going to
16:06
talk about is, you know for the workers they don't they may not
16:10
even know what benefits they have or what rights they have or
16:13
what is feasible for them to be addressing in the workplace.
16:16
Your point about what are the signals to the worker that they
16:20
can disclose real issues that they're having and and want to
16:23
engage their employer to help them?
16:26
Right. And I think one thing that I
16:27
want to us to be really careful about is like we're not saying
16:29
all Wellness efforts are fake, right, or performative.
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But there's one thing that we've noticed is that we're turning a
16:39
structural problem into a personal problem, an
16:43
organization not knowing how to support employees that are
16:47
coming off of bereavement leave, which is usually only three days
16:51
longs, three days long, right? That'll do it.
16:56
Right, totally can get over my grief in three days.
16:58
Super chill, super chill. Or the bereavement doesn't even
17:02
cover things like child loss, like miscarriage, miscarriage
17:05
coverage. Like it really irritates me that
17:07
bereavement doesn't cover that. A lot of times I'm like, come
17:09
on, you can look like you can lose a pet and that can have
17:11
just the same impact as losing a person in your life.
17:14
Like it doesn't. We can't be playing the game of
17:16
who gets to play grief more like the grief Olympics.
17:19
I'm not doing with my policies. Yeah.
17:22
And you know, one thing that came out in our conversation
17:26
with Doctor Nicole Dekay is just how much the way work happens,
17:30
especially in the United States, but possibly also and, and just,
17:33
you know, that I think Global North and increasingly we're
17:35
exporting our how work happens to other countries as well.
17:39
Like the truth is that it's making a lot of us really sick.
17:43
And the answer to that is not a sound bath, although a sound
17:48
bath is really lovely and relaxing.
17:50
So yeah, it it, it actually is really nice.
17:53
I can. I can rock a crystal ball, just
17:57
so you know now. I look it brings up, it brings
18:00
up the the bigger point that you were making earlier, like we my
18:03
problem with self help books. Sorry if you are a self help
18:06
book reader, I'm not, I'm not trying to make a It always tries
18:09
to make you the problem. And sometimes I'm like, I don't
18:12
actually think you're the problem.
18:13
The whole system's the problem, but then, like, how do you as an
18:16
HR person solve for the whole system is really hard,
18:20
especially when a lot of our solutions are point solutions
18:23
for the individual, Yeah. Yeah.
18:26
And we also a lot of what we end up doing in the show is looking
18:30
at looking at the topic from the lens of liability.
18:35
And you know what is when we are seeing the pattern of whatever
18:40
that risk tolerance is moving from the company to the worker,
18:44
we got to put a flag up. So if we are inserting a
18:47
Wellness program and only measuring use rates and some
18:51
loose correlation to productivity as opposed to
18:54
focusing on the actual health of the employee because that
18:56
liability would be put onto the employer, what's actually
19:01
happening? And so I think another way to
19:04
look at this question is, are leaders and the company
19:09
signalling care without actually requiring that behaviorally
19:13
employee to employee and what do we do with that?
19:15
So, so much to talk about. Well, OK, The first thing that I
19:19
want to talk about with you is you write for an audience of HR
19:24
people, leaders, people and culture, maybe even like DEI
19:26
folks, right? Like this umbrella.
19:28
And there are people who are both administrating Wellness
19:30
programs, but in many instances, and I, I see this a lot in your
19:34
newsletter and in your content, is like people are exhausted.
19:37
These people in these worlds are also really exhausted.
19:40
And I'm curious, like, what are you hearing from people leaders
19:44
about what's actually working versus what's theater that they
19:48
feel like they have to participate in?
19:50
Yeah, to come back to the HR people, they are really tired.
19:54
The emotional labor of doing HR in this world right now I feel
19:58
like is at an all time high. There's like a study from
20:01
LinkedIn like a few years ago where they noticed that HR
20:03
people are changing jobs the most and they tried to relate
20:06
that to burnout. Like HR burnout is on all, 90%
20:08
of HR people are changing jobs every year or two.
20:10
Like they must be burnout. I don't know who's done a real
20:13
study on that because I would love to know because so think
20:16
about that like as we are trying to solve for the well-being of
20:18
our employees, we are also struggling.
20:20
So I think like that kind of. Should cloud our lens a little
20:23
bit. And I think when you're thinking
20:25
about like what's working and what's not like when I hear from
20:27
HR people, what's not working are things just like apps, like
20:30
here's an app to do this thing or we got you all headspace for
20:35
a year. Enjoy.
20:36
And like some employees like my we got headspace for free for a
20:39
year because our insurance has like an agreement or whatever.
20:41
And some of my employees were like, this is amazing, best
20:43
benefit ever. And everyone else was like,
20:45
cool, I'm in another meditation app Thanks.
20:48
And so I think like you have to think about that too, is like
20:50
some things are working, some things aren't and some things
20:54
will work for some people and not for all people.
20:56
So the meditation app was one where I kind of like rolled my
20:57
eyes, but my employees were like, actually, this is like so
20:59
fun and we love this. And I was like, OK, maybe I'm
21:02
the problem that maybe like that's just not for me.
21:04
But when I hear from HR people and things that aren't working,
21:07
definitely those types of like random one off solutions that
21:11
they think fit the need for everybody or the dreaded like
21:14
mental health workshop. Like we're going to solve our,
21:16
all of our mental health issues within a 60 minute workshop.
21:20
It's just not going to happen. And I think what's what's
21:23
actually working are benefits that the employees come tell you
21:25
that they want and need more of. And I and for us, that can be
21:29
anything from like we, we covered more therapy.
21:32
We gave them access to this other thing.
21:34
A lot of people are really on like an aura ring kick where
21:37
like they gave their employees aura rings and now everybody can
21:39
you're out there sleeping enough or not.
21:41
I know people really like that benefit.
21:43
So I think it's hard to answer like what's working and what's
21:45
not because I, I think it depends on the individual.
21:47
And I think as long as there are people in your organization who
21:50
are saying they're deriving value from it and potentially
21:52
that solution is working for them.
21:55
OK, quick note about the aura ring.
21:57
I read this report over the weekend that that essentially
22:01
said that all of these trackers. Yeah, they don't work.
22:06
I have garment. Yeah, I have the garment.
22:08
And I got the garment because people were like, garment is
22:10
best. Like, you know, if you have
22:11
fitness goals, this is the they're wrong 30% of the time.
22:16
And I think it's the Apple Watch is the Apple Watch is like the
22:18
most accurate. For some, for some.
22:21
Metrics for some metrics, but most of them are wrong.
22:24
Like if you're, if you're trying to track your workout to see how
22:27
many calories you're burning to like then eat in a deficit, most
22:30
often than not it's not right. Yeah, I only use it to track my
22:34
heart rate because as from a family that has a cardiac
22:36
health, heart health issues like the heart rate is the thing I
22:39
care about. But even that can be wrong too.
22:41
Correct. So Lars's.
22:46
Faith. I mean, I've never done it, but
22:48
yeah, Yikes. And every episode, Lars will,
22:51
like, start to turn a little red.
22:53
Yeah, I'll turn progressively. I'll be a tomato by the end of
22:56
this. For sure.
22:57
Is it the anchor or the anger inside?
22:58
You're like, why aren't we all buying these stupid wearable
23:00
devices? Yeah, even the whoop.
23:01
They like did all the whoop study except everyone was like
23:03
the whoop is the most accurate Wrong.
23:05
Wrong, Yeah. But I like my ring to be very
23:09
clear, I do like that it tracks my sleep and I'm not even sure
23:11
it's the best at tracking sleep. I think your Apple Watches.
23:14
Yeah, I think the Apple Watches. I can't wear a watch when I'm
23:17
sleeping. I'm trying to sleep like I don't
23:20
even wear other than my Ora ring.
23:21
I don't wear any rings when I'm sleeping.
23:23
Like how would I wear a watch anyways?
23:24
OK back to your initial question, what's working and
23:26
what's not? I think a lot is like not
23:28
working. To be clear.
23:30
I also think it's really hard to solve this problem because we
23:32
are individuals who each need something different.
23:36
So like my thought, like how I sleep with myself at the end of
23:40
the night, thinking about our benefits is we have like a
23:42
really good contribution. So we cover like 100% of a plan,
23:45
95% of another plan, 85% of another health plan.
23:47
And the health plan is pretty comprehensive.
23:50
It covers a lot. You can get access to therapy,
23:53
access to other resources. And I just tell myself, like, if
23:56
we're taking most of the burden for the employee, like we're
23:58
covering 85% of their healthcare costs or 95% of their healthcare
24:01
costs, then potentially that could be the thing to get them
24:04
access to what they really need. And I just keep drilling my
24:08
employees with, here are the benefits we have, here are the
24:10
benefits we have. Here are the benefits we have.
24:12
Read your, read your benefits. Talk to the broker.
24:14
We have a broker who can answer all your questions.
24:16
So that's what I do think works is like creating an opportunity
24:19
for people to get access to the care they really need.
24:22
Yeah. And I think we just want to
24:23
scale it all the time. It's like, what's the one thing
24:25
and then that's it. And then there's the other side
24:28
of the House of who does take advantage of the benefits.
24:32
You know, so, so and I think you've talked about this as
24:36
well, that manager usage is as high as 87%, where it's down to
24:41
41% for staff, individual contributors.
24:45
And some companies have tiered benefits depending on yeah, if
24:49
you're a manager or individual contributor, you.
24:51
Just talked about that with Deloitte which is insane that
24:54
that they did that in 2026. Yeah.
24:56
But because of ERISA, I think, and this is not supposed to be
24:58
legal advice, so I will not give it.
24:59
But if they'd made that change, that means even their executives
25:02
also had to change. All their benefits had to change
25:04
also for the executives. It's like, that's really
25:07
interesting. We do not do tiered benefits
25:09
like that. And my CEO would never ask that
25:10
they did. I don't even think he knows that
25:12
we can do that. And I would never agree to do
25:14
that. You're going to try to give
25:15
better benefits to your most paid people who have way more
25:18
access to things than your least paid people.
25:20
Just feels like a system set up to fail.
25:22
On that point, like back in the day when like morality I think
25:26
mattered just a teeny bit more than it does in this moment,
25:29
Washington state was working on paid family and medical leave,
25:32
right? Like we're one of what, 7 states
25:34
that has state mandated paid family and medical leave.
25:37
Thank you. And it came to light that
25:41
Starbucks had tiered benefits for store workers.
25:45
I don't know if you remember this right.
25:47
So people that worked in the stores had shorter parental
25:50
leave than people that worked in the headquarters.
25:54
Which I just want to point out the hypocrisy that if you have a
25:59
job where you're on your feet 8 to 12 hours a day, you likely
26:04
need more recovery time than if you're sitting in a comfy,
26:11
ergonomic office chair. Genuinely why I think I could
26:14
probably never work at a big corporation.
26:16
I've worked at 4 venture backed start-ups.
26:18
I would get in there and be like, absolutely not, I'm out.
26:21
But my, my friend Chris likes to joke and call me the CPO of the
26:24
people because I'm always because I'm always like the
26:26
people. Like I could care less that I'm
26:28
an executive at this company. I would feel so morally
26:31
compromised if I was getting access to better things than my
26:35
employees that wouldn't that wouldn't sit right with me.
26:37
I'm like, how do you build a system of equity?
26:39
I mean, I feel like it's impossible in capitalism,
26:41
obviously, but that's not what this podcast is about.
26:43
But like, I would never, I would never want to do that to my
26:47
employees. Like they deserve a shake at all
26:50
the benefits that I also get access to and to like earn more
26:54
money and to get better benefits.
26:55
Just feel so morally corrupt. And I'm not surprised that they
26:59
had the out because the hourly workers are different, right?
27:02
They classify differently. So I'm sure they got away with
27:05
giving them different benefits based on their classification of
27:07
employee, but that's just wrong. That's just wrong.
27:12
Like you want you want them to do their best work, right?
27:14
If at the end of the day, the goal is we have to make money as
27:17
a company, which is again, capitalism like then we should
27:19
treat the employees really well because we know they'll do
27:21
better work when we treat them well.
27:23
We know they'll do better work when they don't feel financially
27:25
stressed or mentally stressed or are experiencing having to come
27:29
back after giving birth 8 weeks later or 4 weeks later, two days
27:32
later. Like there's so many things that
27:34
we could do. I just feel like we know what
27:37
we're supposed to do. And then corporations kind of
27:40
take the sideways of getting there by being like, but do we
27:43
actually have to do that? I don't think so.
27:46
And then all of us are like, yeah, you, you do.
27:48
Your employees are really unhappy.
27:49
They're really not performing well.
27:50
Like what? Why did you think that this was
27:52
OK? But there's not, there's not
27:56
enough collectivism in our workers rights to actually get
28:01
the rights that workers. Really want?
28:03
Yeah, full stop. OK, it's really, really hard.
28:07
OK, Speaking of collectivism, I want to switch gears a little
28:10
bit to talk about families and communities.
28:12
Of course, as like 3 childless adults, we could totally have
28:15
this conversation nonetheless, but nonetheless your.
28:21
Children are this out. Just books.
28:26
Bless our partners nonetheless. You know, we, we do have
28:29
families, we do have partners. We're engaged in campers.
28:32
We are caregivers, and when somebody is burning out or
28:36
mentally unwell and there's no support at work, the strain does
28:39
land somewhere else and it comes home with us.
28:42
And what are you noticing? Like how often is that
28:46
conversation being had in HR spaces, in the HR data that's
28:51
getting collected? How often is it getting named,
28:53
if at all? Oh, that's such a good question.
28:55
There's some people that do believe in the work and personal
28:58
boundary where they're like, your work is your work life and
29:01
your personal life is your personal life.
29:02
And when you open your computer, everything that ceases to be in
29:05
your personal life doesn't actually show up at work.
29:07
That's like so false. That's like so false.
29:10
And you have got to be not paying attention if you think
29:13
that the stress that you're causing your employees at work
29:15
doesn't manifest elsewhere in their lives.
29:18
They did that article that came out like last year.
29:19
That was like your, your manager has more of an impact on your
29:22
mental health than your partner. And I'm like, yo, I know I've
29:26
had some bad managers, but like I can attest to that.
29:30
That is definitely. But then think about that.
29:32
So like, I don't, I don't know many people that are measuring
29:35
that though. Like you can ask questions in
29:37
like an engagement survey about like overall stress, but do you
29:41
think an employee would be honest if you asked on an
29:42
engagement survey? Like are you experiencing
29:44
financial stress? Yes.
29:46
You think they would? Yeah.
29:49
Yeah, I think that. I think that they would and you
29:52
know, back in the day when I was like deep in data and
29:57
organizational climate, you know, studies, yeah, we would
30:01
ask that because that is fundamentally a part of
30:05
workplace health and well-being. Is the extent to which you're
30:09
struggling with your finances right or number?
30:12
One stressor #1 cause of divorce.
30:14
It's yeah, I mean, money is the number one stressor.
30:17
And if you're not making enough money to survive, then yeah,
30:22
obviously that's coming to work with you.
30:24
That it also is the most important metric for us to be
30:27
looking at, period, for any kind of collective movement work like
30:30
class struggle. Is it whether or not you have
30:32
access to a middle class job. You know, I think in our last
30:37
episode we talked about that 60% of workers are living paycheck
30:42
to paycheck, you know, So yeah. Kills me.
30:48
All the studies, yeah, the one that were like, you'd be
30:50
Americans only have like about not even $1000 in savings to
30:52
cover emergencies, that type of stuff.
30:55
It's so interesting. I have a potentially kind of
30:57
dark thing to say. I don't know if many HR people
31:01
are measuring that because I think they don't know how to
31:05
solve a lot of those problems. And if they measure it and it's
31:09
in the data, then maybe they will feel compelled to solve it
31:14
or liable or liable to solve it. That's the other thing is like,
31:17
do I want to ask a question? Like when the one thing I like
31:20
encounter with managers is they're like, oh, I can tell
31:22
that person's suffering. They're like, I don't want to
31:23
ask them about it because then I have to reply when they tell me
31:26
what's going on. And I don't know what to say.
31:29
And I'm like, I don't really think that's like, great either,
31:32
you know, like my, my boss when I lost my father, like she had
31:36
lost her father very young, in like her early 20s.
31:37
So she knew the intimately the signs of someone suffering.
31:41
She was able to look at me and see me suffering and like
31:44
recommend a path forward for how I ease the suffering I was
31:48
feeling and the grief. But like, not every manager is
31:50
equipped to do that. And a lot of managers are
31:52
worried about saying the wrong thing because then they wade
31:54
into this area that they think is legal and then they don't
31:58
know what to disclose either. They're like, should I tell HR?
32:00
Do I not tell HR? Actually, don't tell me you go
32:02
to HRHR will deal with you. So I think it's like very a
32:04
tricky place to be, but that doesn't absolve us of we still
32:10
feel the impacts at work. So like, it would behoove, I
32:14
don't know what is going on with my vocabulary today, but it
32:16
would behoove us to measure it, learn it, acknowledge it, and
32:19
then have steps in place to address it to the best of our
32:22
abilities. But I do think that like legal
32:25
Gray area scares a lot of people and they start to think, well,
32:28
now I'm overstepping into something.
32:30
I shouldn't even step in and I can't actually control this.
32:33
So why am I stepping into this? I feel like I'm giving you a lot
32:38
of politician answers where I'm like not straightly answering
32:40
it, but I'm like kind of around dancing around answering it.
32:43
But it's hard. It's.
32:46
Theoretical because we're in a system that's bureaucratic and
32:48
individualized and so like it's not it's not unreasonable for a
32:52
manager to struggle and have those those thoughts because
32:55
everything you are liable like you are put that's just what the
32:59
system that we're in. And I think that the question is
33:05
especially for HR people listening of like how do you
33:08
help? How do you help workers to
33:12
especially the person who's thinking about the Wellness
33:14
benefit as this is just for me, I'm in my individual mindset.
33:17
I'm the I'm responsible for this change.
33:20
I am responsible for my own well-being.
33:23
And so of course the Wellness industry profits off of that.
33:26
That's self help is just looking at the individual and not the
33:29
collective and I think to build the systems that you're building
33:34
have of like helping people be responsive directly to an
33:39
individual need and help solve for it collectively.
33:44
Not that I am responsible because I'm your manager, but we
33:47
are responsible for our collective well-being.
33:52
Heady question, but like how do we address that?
33:54
Like what do we do with the fact that we see it as an individual
33:58
problem? How do we move people towards
33:59
the structural? Oh God, what a floated question.
34:03
On the note of like individual problem, we talked about the
34:05
manager thing where managers are accessing the benefits more.
34:08
It's because they feel the freedom and the protection to
34:11
like dictate how their time is spent probably at work more than
34:14
an individual contributor does. So I would say start by looking
34:18
at your who is benefiting from the current benefits you have in
34:21
place. And if you do have that
34:23
disconnect between managers are making more benefit of it than
34:26
individual contributors, start there.
34:28
Because I actually think USHR could create time and space
34:31
within your system to let people get the help they need.
34:35
Like we don't need to be in meetings 8 out of 8 hours a day.
34:37
In fact, when I'm in a meeting for eight straight hours and
34:39
like this is a waste of a work day.
34:41
Like half of these meetings could have been asynchronous.
34:43
I also like my 2 Co founders. When I was interviewing to work
34:46
with them, I asked them a very saucy question, which I later on
34:51
disclosed at an event in Europe. And the room was like silent
34:53
when I told everybody I asked this question.
34:56
But I asked them if they were in therapy actively.
34:58
I said, are you in? Are you 2 like your two Co
35:00
founders? Are you in therapy?
35:01
And do you have a professional coach?
35:03
And they both were like, yes, we're both in therapy.
35:05
It's actually visible on our calendar.
35:07
And we're both, we both work with a professional coach
35:09
together and separately. And I said great.
35:11
And they were like, why do you ask that question?
35:12
And I said, first of all, I as your CPO cannot be your CPO
35:15
therapist and professional coach.
35:16
I'm not qualified to be your therapist or your professional
35:18
coach. I'm only qualified to be your
35:19
CPO. So it, it helps me to know that
35:22
you're taking care of yourself. The second thing it told me was
35:24
that they thought it was important to work on themselves.
35:27
So when I started, I was like, I'm so glad it's publicly on
35:29
your calendar. People can see when our founders
35:32
are in therapy. And I think taking time in the
35:34
middle of the day to take care of yourself, if you can learn to
35:37
destigmatize that at an organizational level, or someone
35:40
can say, I need to go to therapy in the middle of the day.
35:42
I have to take this hour off. I need to go drop my kid off
35:44
here, a caregive for my parents. If you already have that energy
35:48
in your environment, I think you start to chip away at this
35:51
societal problem of I don't have time to take care of myself.
35:54
Because yes, while we are paying you in those eight hours and one
35:57
of those hours is potentially spent taking care of yourself,
35:59
we benefit from you taking care of yourself.
36:02
So I see no qualms of someone in the middle of the day saying, I
36:04
have therapy. I'm like, pop off, put it on
36:07
your calendar. I know that client meetings
36:09
can't be scheduled around that. Like no, client meetings won't
36:11
be scheduled over it. Like that type of environment,
36:13
if you can start to build it, I think has such an impact down
36:16
the line. When you do roll out benefits,
36:18
you say like, please make sure you're using our benefits.
36:20
Now they see that the executive level is setting the example and
36:23
they feel comfortable to do it. That stat that like managers are
36:27
using it more, they clearly feel more comfortable to use it, but
36:30
now it needs to be publicly said so that everybody else can also.
36:33
And listen, I'm not asking everybody to put in bold letters
36:36
like I'm in therapy to work on my marriage or I'm in therapy to
36:39
work on this really specific issue.
36:41
I understand like even saying I'm in therapy on your calendar
36:43
is a scary thing. But I in our environment
36:46
specifically, our founders have destigmatized that.
36:48
They've made it clear that like it is something for you to take
36:50
care of yourself and we are happy if you have to do it
36:52
during work hours. So I think like that is even
36:55
even destigmatizing the idea of putting that on your calendar, I
36:59
think will be hard for some organizations.
37:03
That was a long winded way of answering your question.
37:06
I don't society needs to fix itself and I think a lot of
37:10
things could fix in the workplace.
37:12
But it does feel hard when we feel like we're on the brink of
37:15
like a crisis every single day and we have no safety Nets in
37:18
place to take care of ourselves like Europe.
37:20
Europe offers like a year of mental health leave.
37:22
Some European countries like you could take a year off your job
37:25
is protected your salary. I think you either on the full
37:27
thing or a percentage of it. We just don't have that net
37:30
here. And so then it's hard because I
37:32
see this push and pull between should our government provide it
37:35
or should the employer provide it?
37:37
And is the employer getting benefits from providing it?
37:39
Is it eating away at their profits like that?
37:42
It's a really nuanced conversation to have, but we
37:45
have to do something because there is a huge gap in America
37:48
of what the government provides and what people actually need to
37:51
be successful and whole human beings.
37:53
Well, the government has been unwilling to pass paid family
37:57
and medical leave legislation, right?
37:58
Like the vast majority of workers.
38:00
Nations we are one of six developed nations that does not
38:02
have a form of paid federal. Parental leave.
38:05
OK. And what gives us the right to
38:07
call ourselves a developed nation just when we have 50% of
38:14
Americans living in poverty? And of course, it's relative
38:16
because you know, you're not of Bushmen living in the Kalahari.
38:19
Like that's not the gauge for poverty, right?
38:23
By our own metrics, we have 50% of the population that lives in
38:26
poverty. And unlike the Kalahari Bushmen,
38:29
we don't have community while we're struggling with poverty.
38:32
We don't have paid family and medical leave.
38:34
There is chronic workout burnout, right?
38:37
And chronic burnout is depression.
38:39
So we're also mentally all unwell.
38:43
What about this is developed? I don't know, our literacy rate
38:46
is awful too with like half our country reading and left with
38:48
the greater reading level fine. Your job is to be like and the
38:52
ways in which we're developed is no.
38:54
I'm no, I'm just like, we're theft, all right, Like I, it's,
38:58
it is really, some days I honestly feel so weird because I
39:03
wake up and I'm like, I am going to send emails today.
39:07
And then I like think to myself like AI is taking clean water.
39:11
It's impacting our energy and our environment.
39:13
And then we are multiple global wars going on and
39:15
dissatisfaction at work is at an all time high and engagement's
39:18
at an all time low. And I feel like I'm masquerading
39:20
as a corporate capitalist Barbie someday.
39:22
Like I it is such an interesting place to be where also you want
39:28
to change it for others. Like I did not love my workplace
39:32
experiences the 1st 5 to 10 years of my career.
39:35
And when I entered HRI was like, I will not be the HR person who
39:38
lets people get away with like micro aggressing people at work,
39:41
making sexist comments at work. I will not be the HR person who
39:44
buries sexual harassment and assault at my workplace.
39:46
Like that is not going to fly with me.
39:47
So I went in it to like fix the experience others were having.
39:51
And that's like naive to a certain extent because the, the
39:53
people are still experiencing the system in the world that I
39:55
can't fix. And so there, there are days
39:58
where I feel like I'm trying so hard at an individual level to
40:01
fix the HR piece, but then recognizing that those HR people
40:05
still exist in this world that is really hard to control.
40:08
And so like the way I sleep at night is I just keep telling
40:11
myself if I can make it better for the 65 employees, I have an
40:13
hour org, maybe they go off and they help other orgs and maybe
40:17
the 170,000 HR people reading my newsletter can make one small
40:20
change in their environment. And those small changes add up
40:22
to big change some. But there is this bigger
40:24
question of collectively, if the system is not serving but a
40:28
small percentage of people, what are we actually doing in this
40:30
world? The first thing we have to do is
40:32
stop pretending. And I think that's what's, so I
40:35
think powerful about what you said of just helping people say
40:39
I'm going to therapy or I'm not OK.
40:42
These are the actual needs that I have.
40:45
I think for me being in large corporations, it's just the
40:47
performance of being OK and it's not real.
40:51
Like we have a, we're a culture of avoidance.
40:54
And so that really is those, that's how we create the
40:58
conditions to make any kind of systemic changes, First being
41:01
honest and then responsive to that honesty.
41:04
Yeah, Minda Hartz wrote a whole book about trust in the
41:07
workplace. And I also feel like employees
41:09
don't trust us. They, First of all, people hate
41:12
HR. To be so clear, every time I
41:13
post anything on the Internet, everyone's like, the HR sucks.
41:16
And I'm like, actually, yes, that a lot of places HR does,
41:20
but like I'm trying to make it a tiny bit better, right?
41:22
But it is interesting because like the trust for HR is at a
41:25
low as well. But because there's so many bad
41:30
HR people, I don't want to be like, go tell your go disclose
41:32
your HR person all the things you're dealing with.
41:34
Because we all know on this call, the average HR person
41:37
might do nothing or worse, might retaliate.
41:41
And so it's also like, how do we build back a system of trust?
41:44
It's really hard when corporations that are Uber
41:47
profitable are laying off people in droves or cutting benefits.
41:50
In droves. I was just thinking that I'm
41:51
like, how can people not, you know, it's like, hi, Beth
41:55
Coletti, what are you doing? You know what, what, what are
41:59
you doing? 100 per Almost 100% of your
42:02
warehouse workers live in poverty and you're laying off
42:05
30,000 people. The another top comment on my
42:10
TikTok about the Deloitte benefits was, well, they don't
42:13
have a warehouse for us to set fire to, but like socially, the
42:18
social like social distrust of organization.
42:21
So like then you're talking about well-being, which is
42:24
again, like we go back to the well-being topic.
42:26
I am not a trained expert in therapy.
42:29
It's like I, I, I'm not a trained health professional, but
42:33
I have to make decisions to help the health of my employees to
42:37
the best of my ability. I also don't really know what to
42:40
say if they start just closing things to me.
42:42
Yes, I have legal policies I have to follow and I'm well
42:45
versed in those. But now imagine your average HR
42:47
person who just ends up in HR who has no comprehension of the
42:49
legal stuff, has not had to yet deal with any of the well-being
42:52
piece. And then they are running a
42:54
well-being program. An employee goes and discloses
42:56
something to them and then they retaliated, fire them, which I
42:58
think is like a common thing that happens.
43:00
And the reason I bring this up is just because like we some,
43:03
some of us don't know how to help others and we're going to
43:06
inherently do the the wrong thing without sometimes even
43:09
knowing we're doing the wrong thing out of sheer you just
43:11
don't know. And so the well-being in itself
43:15
is, is a really hard thing to work on as an organization
43:19
unless you have like the trust of the executives and the
43:22
employees as well. OK, on that note, I want to move
43:26
us Yes words, no. I just, I mean we can.
43:31
My corporate capitalist Barbie, right?
43:33
Well, I mean, and we can have this conversation for three
43:35
hours, right? OK, we close out our episodes
43:39
with rapid fire and I have I only have 4 questions this week
43:45
and we typically ask our guests to go first and then Lars
43:48
participates as well. Yeah.
43:51
OK, Are you ready? OK, so the first question is
43:53
what is 1 Wellness benefit that actually works and companies
43:56
under fund and neither one of you is allowed to say sound
44:00
bats? And companies under fund, I
44:04
don't have data on this, but financial well-being benefits
44:08
where they give you access to a financial coach to help you do
44:11
things like budget, figure out how to pay your student loan
44:14
back, estimate payment. That type of benefit I'm
44:18
obsessed with and I don't think enough companies invest in it.
44:21
But if you could give your employees an outside benefit to
44:24
help them make sense of their financial situation, which we
44:27
just said is like the number one cause of stress, potentially
44:30
they could get less stressed at work.
44:32
I love that. Laura.
44:36
Well, I just have you in my mind, Aparna.
44:38
So leave. Family paid medical leave.
44:41
Just more leave. OK, second question, a phrase
44:46
about HR culture that you would be happy to never hear again.
44:52
Oh, I think you and I talked about this on my podcast.
44:54
Maybe. I really hate the phrase do more
44:57
with less. I just think it's a way to tell
45:03
people I'm not going to fund whatever it is you want to do.
45:07
And also you should just be better and be more resilient and
45:11
be able to do more with us. Is that kind of the phrase
45:14
you're looking for? Because that was the first one
45:16
that jumped into my head. OK, but also the first lady told
45:18
us that we should be better, so no.
45:23
I'm so over anyone telling me to be anything other than what I
45:25
am. Sorry.
45:26
I was like a throwback to Gavin DeGraw and I'm not a fan of his
45:29
right now. But yeah, I don't when people
45:32
are like, oh, like here's a challenge, do more with less.
45:35
I'm like, here's a challenge. No, give me the resources I need
45:39
to do my job effectively and stop asking me to do more than
45:43
is humanly possible. Because as HR people we are
45:46
frequently under resourced and then asked to do impossible
45:50
tasks. I am over it.
45:52
I'm going to do less with less. That's what I've been saying all
45:55
year and I'm maybe I'll never get another job, but here I.
45:58
Am do less with less lark. What do you have?
46:02
Culture fit. Oh, OK, A company that's doing
46:07
something genuinely right when it comes to Wellness.
46:13
OK, this company cakes. Someone told me the story cakes.
46:16
They are nibble covers. I don't know why I just did this
46:18
as if I was covering it. Well it's great.
46:21
Great, we should get that. I'm just kidding.
46:23
Cakes is giving all employees it's like $32,000 a year I think
46:29
last I looked for daycare benefits.
46:32
Oh. Love that.
46:33
I thought that was great. The other thing to think about
46:34
though is that is taxable income.
46:35
That was my first HR someone when someone told me the story
46:38
about this benefit, I was like, but that's a taxable benefit.
46:41
And they're like yes, but the average cost of daycare is so
46:43
much that they don't care that it's a taxable benefit actually
46:45
helps them in the long run. So they are giving their
46:47
employees money for daycare. I love it, Lars.
46:53
I have been crushing on Duolingo.
46:58
I love that their head this is not Wellness necessarily answer,
47:01
but the the company itself. I love that they're in
47:04
Pittsburgh. First of all, I think that's a
47:05
cool, cool place to choose the headquarter.
47:08
But they haven't laid off a single employee since they moved
47:11
to their AI focused strategy. And yeah, the CEO was like, this
47:20
isn't a strategy to save money or to replace humans.
47:24
We just want to do more and get closer to our mission.
47:29
And it's not a Wellness program, but I think it probably there's
47:33
a reason why they're four out of five on Glassdoor.
47:36
So I've just been crushing on them from the side.
47:40
They'll have a proper. User of Duolingo here.
47:43
Yeah, I have an unbroken like almost a year long St.
47:48
Dang the only streak I have is reading every day so I'm on like
47:52
I'm I'm on day 10,000 and like 97 in a row.
47:57
That's incredible. I read every day.
47:59
Hence why I was like, we're in a literacy crisis, like people
48:02
can't read, know what they're doing.
48:04
That's a whole other there is a creator called Brit and her
48:08
books or Brit loves her books. Who does these white board talks
48:14
with? I will send it to you both and I
48:17
will put it in the show notes and protect Brit and for both.
48:22
OK. Last questions.
48:23
If you if you all could strip away everything companies are
48:25
currently spending on Wellness and rebuild from scratch with
48:29
the same budget, what would you prioritize?
48:34
This is such a good question. Potentially like an external
48:38
therapy resource because my issue with like going through
48:41
your insurance to get coverage it, it can be really daunting.
48:45
And so I'm like, is there a good therapy platform out there that
48:48
I could tell all of my employees?
48:49
Like you could sign in today and get a therapy session with a
48:52
licensed therapist specifically focused on the area that you
48:55
need the most help with in under 30 minutes.
48:59
That would probably be where I would invest my money rather
49:01
than telling everybody, you have to go through your insurance and
49:03
find someone in network and then here's a website to search to
49:06
find someone in network and then you have to call them and then
49:08
they have to see if there's an appointment available.
49:09
I don't know, maybe that's just me.
49:11
I just want to, I want people to get access to more therapy
49:14
because a lot of our issues that come up in the workplace are
49:17
issues from either that could be brought up from like a
49:19
childhood, a past experience. And we haven't worked through a
49:23
lot of that. And then it manifests in the
49:25
workplace in ways that, like, people who aren't educated don't
49:28
know how to navigate that and instead are like, it's a crisis.
49:31
And you're like, relax, just let the people get the help they
49:34
need. Yes, more therapy, Lars.
49:39
Minus like a lot of what we talked about today, actually, my
49:43
dream is I think what you're doing Heba is like literally
49:47
responding individually to people and creating customized
49:51
Wellness programs or resources based off of those needs.
49:56
And I'm also this is AI don't know.
50:00
I don't know why this came to me, but I would be really
50:03
interested in looking at people's productivity seasonally
50:09
and having that also next to actual employee health patterns
50:14
and then seeing, yeah, what would come through.
50:18
How was that down? That'd be cool data.
50:20
I need more people to be, I need more people to be doing research
50:22
honestly, because I'm really tired of reading these like 1200
50:25
people responded to this survey and I'm like, there's not enough
50:27
people. I also don't know what I'm going
50:29
to do with that. So like that would be really
50:31
interesting. I am probably less productive in
50:33
the summer because I want to be outside.
50:36
Same. I'm like I need vitamin DI need
50:39
everyone to stop talking to me when the UV is greater than 7.
50:42
I need to be tanning with SPF, my SPF 50 on my face.
50:45
OK so I just need to be not doing work.
50:49
So I that would be a really cool study to see people.
50:53
OK, fun fact that I learned from NPR.
50:56
Thank you. NPR is, you know how these red
50:59
light masks have been all over social media and how at at least
51:03
is like, women identifying people.
51:06
We're supposed to, like, put this mask on our face and get
51:08
the red light. You have one.
51:11
I do. OK, of course I do.
51:13
If I don't care. Four years.
51:15
It probably doesn't work, is what you're going to tell me.
51:17
No, no, no, no. OK.
51:19
What they basically said was you can get a good amount of red
51:21
light by just going outside in the morning or in the evening
51:25
when there is a lot of red light just there in the atmosphere in
51:30
the, I mean, I don't know the science, but you can get as much
51:34
or more as you get from your mask by just and they were like,
51:37
just go have your coffee, sit outside and have your coffee.
51:41
Yeah, I could do that. But I I love my red light mask.
51:43
Also. There's like all these studies
51:45
around, like how strong the bulbs are and are you really
51:47
getting it from a red light mask or is this placebo?
51:49
There's a whole thing about this.
51:50
I have done extensive research on this red light mask.
51:53
What I really want is a red light panel but those are very
51:55
expensive like the high end ones that like really give you all
51:59
the light you possibly need. Or I'll just go outside.
52:02
Why am I paying? It's free.
52:03
You can go out like at least. Seasonally, you could be
52:07
outside. I do not go outside in the
52:09
winter. I am not a winter person.
52:12
I am from Virginia Beach. My parents are Egyptian.
52:14
I don't like the cold and my body is like not built for it.
52:17
It drops below 40 and I'm like see ya, I'll be back out when
52:20
it's 60 again. And then I just stay inside for
52:22
days on end, which is why I'm more productive in the winter.
52:26
There you go. Same way more productive in the
52:28
winter. OK, more OK, friends, I really
52:31
hate that we have to close this out.
52:33
We end every episode with just a take away and an action item.
52:36
And I feel like there's so many action items that have come up
52:39
through this conversation about any last thing that you want to
52:43
leave listeners with, right? Something they can actually do
52:46
or think about at the end of this.
52:48
I genuinely hate the phrase. Remember during COVID when
52:51
everyone was like put on your oxygen mask before you put on
52:54
other people's oxygen mask? I hate that phrase so much
52:56
because so many people overused it.
52:58
But I cannot stress this enough. If you and HR are not taking
53:01
care of yourself, if you yourself are not mentally well
53:05
and getting the support you need, if you are burnt out, your
53:08
employees are going to feel the impacts of that.
53:12
And I just, I want more HR people to put themselves 1st to
53:15
take care of themselves because it will serve the entire
53:18
organization in the end. And I hate us to always be like
53:21
the servant leader of everything, but we will do
53:24
better work and feel more inspired in our work if we could
53:26
take care of ourselves. OK, we're taking care of
53:30
ourselves, Lars I. Think for the worker.
53:37
If you are still thinking about Wellness at work as an
53:40
individual issue that you need to be solving, ask yourself why.
53:45
And then ask yourself if there if there were structural changes
53:50
to your workplace that would solve for this, what would it
53:53
look like? And just see what comes up.
53:57
And as always, then talk to your Co worker about it.
54:00
Have a conversation that you know whether or not you want to
54:03
talk about it from an individual level or structural level.
54:06
Have it become a we and then see what happens.
54:11
I love that. Can I tell you guys a secret
54:13
before we go going to be on this pod?
54:15
So maybe it's not a secret. I'm like actively working on
54:18
writing a book about how you change the system, like your
54:21
systems that you work within at your organization.
54:24
Because I am very sick and tired of all these books telling me
54:27
that I am the problem and not acknowledging that the system in
54:30
which we all operate is a bigger problem that we can potentially
54:34
change at an individual company size level.
54:38
Gorgeous. I'm like.
54:39
I keep saying it out loud. Maybe then I will actually
54:41
finish my proposal. Because it's almost fun.
54:43
And I need to finish it because I deeply want to write this
54:45
book. Because.
54:48
We might have to have a separate conversation about the books
54:50
that we're writing in 2026. God, I love that.
54:54
Well, I also want to write romance, but that's separate for
54:56
another, for another day. Escape with them is always,
54:59
well, true. OK, My action item would be for
55:04
people to use precise language. I think people use words like
55:09
burnout, PTSD or trauma very loosely, very, very loosely.
55:14
And these are things that have long term consequences for
55:18
people's health, for their family's health, for right, like
55:21
what kinds of autoimmune diseases their kids are going to
55:23
have. And so, yeah, I just think it
55:25
would behoove us because we're back to early moving.
55:29
Sorry. But it would it would behoove us
55:33
to use more precise language to talk about some of these things
55:35
that are not a joke. So that's what I have this.
55:39
Has been such a good This has been such a fun hour of my life.
55:44
Thank you for being with us. Thank you for having me and
55:47
letting me yap. We're here to yap.
55:49
Lars, you want to close this out?
55:51
Yeah. Well, on our next episode, we're
55:53
actually coming to the end of our first season, which is
55:56
incredible. And we are going to talk about
56:01
the real cost of symbolic capitalism.
56:05
We're going to talk about what that means and hopefully how to
56:08
shift our behaviors to create liberation for all, especially
56:12
at work. So don't miss this one.
56:14
And as always, we want to hear from you.
56:17
So if you have a story you want to share, please reach out.
56:19
We will continue to weave and listeners stories throughout our
56:22
show in hopes of building a community where you know you're
56:25
not alone. So as you can send us an e-mail
56:27
or an audio recording at hello at Circle Back dot Club.
56:31
And thanks to everybody that already has.
56:35
Yes, thank you. I'm Lars.
56:37
And I'm Aparna. We'll circle back.