Latest / Ducks Unlimited Podcast / Ep. 678 - Chesapeake Bay Retriever: History, Training, and Companionship

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Ep. 678 - Chesapeake Bay Retriever: History, Training, and Companionship · Ducks Unlimited Podcast

• John Gordon: Hey, everybody. Welcome again to the Ducks Unlimited podcast. This is John Gordon. I'm your host. It's good to be back here in the DU studios. And I'm continuing my breed, dog breed profiles with the Chesapeake Bay Retriever. And when I was tasked with these profiles, there was only one person that I wanted to talk to about the Chesapeake. And that's my good buddy, Paul McKinnon from Prince Edward Island. Paulie, welcome to the DU Podcast. Paul McKinnon: Thanks so much, Johnny. My pleasure, my friend. John Gordon: It's, uh, it's great to have you on here. And anyone who's a fan of both DU TV or, uh, DU Nation has seen Paul and his Chesapeake in action. Uh, I've had them, you know, we, uh, you know, you can see them all on YouTube right now. We, uh, had some really great episodes from up there. Beautiful place. And, uh, your dog, Jaxie, I'm real impressed with him, Paulie. You've done an amazing job with him. Paul McKinnon: Thanks, bud. I appreciate he's, uh, you know, you get one of those dogs every once in a while and he's one of those dogs, right. It just, and even him missing a year out of the last two year with an injury and an illness. He just, he, and me being out of it for so long, right. Like training competitively. And, uh, they're competitively like trained for hunt test training. It's been 10, 15 years. And, uh, you know, the game sort of passed me by a little bit, but he made it easy. We're, we're having a blast learning again together. And, uh, You know, we just made sure the basics were rock solid and the standard was high. You know, uh, I couldn't be happier with them. Like some of the, you know, like Ed or Freddie and them saying like, you don't even know he's there. Right. I even forget he's there. John Gordon: That's right. He's off in his little hut, man. And you didn't see his nose sticking out of it. That's about it. Paul McKinnon: Yeah. And, uh, so no, we couldn't, couldn't be happier and happier for the opportunities to it up for, you know, for me as, as, as fun as it was to me connect with you again, connect with Fred again, meet everybody, make new friends. Uh, you know what I mean? Every time it's unreal now up here in sports was right. Every time I just want to see the Jackson clips. I couldn't care less about the rest of it. And, uh, John Gordon: And I tell you folks, anybody hadn't seen it, just watch it. Jackson to me is the prototypical Chesapeake Bear Retriever, right? That's what you picture in your head when you think about Chesapeake. Just a big dog that's full of life and just one heck of a retriever. Paul McKinnon: Yeah. Now he's, he's sorta, you know, he's like, he runs 83, 85 pounds, which is going to take a toll on him, right? Much as we hunt and train. So I'm trying to get her, keep him down around 82. You know, not bragging because it's not my dog, right? All the, all the kudos go to Mario Beauregard at Nordic Kennels in Quebec, who's been breeding for 50 years. And he's just a great specimen, like physically, uh, he's fast, but he's not crazy. You know what I mean? He's athletic. He goes, uh, and then he, like you've seen, he's got a great off switch sitting around Maggie's or, you know, sleeping with somebody on the couch. So yeah, I couldn't be happier with, with what I, what I got. And we, and we started the process of collecting him now and, and to breed and we're having lots of bites and stuff, but I only cared about getting his son in four years. I could care less. Yeah. People are telling me, oh, well, I think you're a little high on price. I don't care. Don't pay it. Go ship it in from the States and pay 5,000 US by the time it lands there. Right. So the, uh, but yeah, no, I couldn't be happier. He's, he's everything I want. John Gordon: Yeah. Paul McKinnon: And I've had eight, I think, in my lifetime. Yeah. Right. John Gordon: That, that you've, that's, that's enough sample size to really know the breed, I think. Yeah. Eight dogs. Paul McKinnon: Since I was 17. John Gordon: Yeah, right. That's awesome. I've been starting out these profiles with a little bit of history and doing Chesapeake history is pretty cool because it's almost like… As if ever. It's almost like a novel, right? You got a shipwreck and a captain comes on and finds these two puppies and saves them. That's a novel, right? I mean, you really, that's a fascinating backstory. Paul McKinnon: Unreal. And, you know, I think it was 1807 and they were called Newfoundland dogs. John Gordon: Right. Right. Paul McKinnon: Even though one was red, Canton was red and sailor was black. And you know, that ship went ashore off, off, uh, Virginia in Chesapeake Bay, maybe? That's right. And, uh, and then the boat to save them was the Canton, I believe. So, one of the dogs was named Canton, the male. Yeah. Captain John Mercer, you know, he was the captain that found them. And he's from Baltimore. Right. And, and so he took them and then back then it was, you know, they, I guess they got a reputation of being great water dogs and that'd be market hunting days. and hunting for survival and sustenance, right? And so, you know, I think when you read all the different stories from all those gun clubs and all that stuff, the history of the Chesapeake, right? You know, they say, oh, wow, this one doesn't have a great nose. Good, let's breed it to a hound. Right, or this one needs a better coat, let's do water span or a flat coat, right? John Gordon: Until they finally… That's what they did, you know, was really produced, you know, put more spaniels and hounds into the bloodlines, like I said, to really improve those things. The whole breeding program of creating a dog really fascinates me because that's a decades-long experience. It's not something you're doing over the course of a couple of years. So, the dedication to it, to me, is fascinating. Paul McKinnon: It's a, yeah, like my, my real introduction to the breed, even though I've, I had Chesapeake for probably 15 years was, you know, getting to be friends with Butch Goodwin, who was at the time sort of the godfather of Chesapeake's. And he sort of started his own breeding program and he bred to certain dogs like Dex before he was even titled, who was one of the best sires ever in the breed. And, you know, he would, he wasn't breeding just because, oh, that dog's titled. Or that dog's this or that. He wanted to go see them. Are they athletic? Do they, you know, do they please, do they not, you know, moving away from, you know, not so much the mean streak, but the possessiveness. And there definitely was some mean ones, no question. The, uh, but just moving away from that and building the better dog, right. And he was with Linda Harger for a while and bred to Clipper, one of the great dogs in our breed. So that's sort of where I get, okay, I'm getting into the history of it more, right? And he'd say, what about this dog? You know, this dog, you gotta look at this and look at his toes. What are his toes like? Do his toenails hang over? Like just want it the perfect feet, the perfect confirmation, the athleticism, the attitude, all that stuff. So, and he spent years doing that, right? Years. Uh, and then I think at one point, you know, there was that whole field trial versus hunt test trap, right? Like, One's better than the other. Then it was getting into the English style and all that stuff. But that's where I get into the whole breed and just sort of focused on the breed and the dog. And, uh, and like I said, it is sort of a funny quick story here, John. I got my first Chesapeake at 17. All my buddies got labs and I couldn't find a lab. And I had the money in my pocket. And it was burning a hole in my pocket and burning a hole of it. And I finally seen this ass on a native reserve on the western end of the island. So I drove up. Uh, no, I only got one left and I'm keeping it. get to talking, grew up, one of my father's best friends, they grew up together. No kidding. And they were electricians together. And so I left. And anyway, I just, one day I said, I'm going back up maybe this time. And I don't know why, right? And I went back up and the wife just looked and she goes, Charlie, for the love of God, give the kid the dog. You're going to have other dogs. And that's how I got my first Chesapeake. What was that dog's name? Mac. Mac. He was the first Master Hunter, not in the Maritimes. Actually, another Chesapeake was the first Master Hunter in NARA on PEI. And I believe the second or the third in the Maritimes. The first three Master Hunters, I believe, in the Maritimes in the NARA program were all Chesapeakes. John Gordon: Wow. That's great. So, you know, you started off on a good foot, obviously. Mac sounds like a really good dog. Paul McKinnon: Yeah. No, he's a, he was a good, like, and at that time we were just out of high school. And we worked in the summer and we hunted every day, trained all, you know, trained when we weren't working, hunted all fall and shopped crows and pigeons all winter. So they had a great life. Right. And, uh, And then narrow cane along like a year or two later. And remember Jack to go to common and seeing one of his, the original narrow dog. Remember the big stocky yellow one. John Gordon: I do. Paul McKinnon: And see, and you know, that would be a, an easy senior test today. What he was doing. We're all like, wow. Right. John Gordon: Yeah. Paul McKinnon: Holy cow. So, so yeah, that's where I get into it. And, uh, was that of a, like head Mac, I was away for a while, came back and my next, my next three or four were off porch and. John Gordon: And, uh, I can remember when I was a kid that the name Butch Goodwin and Chesapeake was synonymous. I mean, he was, yeah, it was right. Paul McKinnon: Yeah. And he got, he had that training book, right. That come out. I still have it here assigned the first one. Um, I did all the force fetch pictures and stuff for him and, uh, Yeah, like he, he was, Linda Harder is, is the same or more as Butch, cause Butch has been out of it for so long and Linda stayed in it, promoting the breed. Uh, but from a breeding perspective, man. I don't know where else you're going to go to have decades of breeding really nice dogs, right? Yeah. John Gordon: And so, you know, everybody, you can always point back in every breed to somebody and go, well, you know, the entire breed, every aficionado of that dog owes a debt to that person for making the dog. Better. Paul McKinnon: Yeah. And may, and I think what Butch did too, or sort of along the lines that what sort of what Freddie did was the Canadian accident. He picked, he talked to you for hours at a time. Right. And back then I was like, you know, 25 years ago, no video. Like you have to literally get a video camera to try and show him something. Right. That was wrong in training or what do you think of this with the dog and. But he would spend hours talking to you, just relax, work through this. If you've messed up, go back, right? You missed something in basic, so you missed something, right? Go back. He's not understanding just what he taught, like Ken Parrott with, uh, Uh, his kennel in, in Ohio, I don't think Kenny's breeding anymore. One of my last dogs, uh, was from Kenny and his, all his dogs were at a butch. Uh, but there's a lot of guys learned a lot about just picking the right dogs to breed, doing the right thing by the breed. You know, if you got a dog that shouldn't be bred, don't breed it. Right. And so there was a lot of that. So, uh, it was, you know, there was a great 15 years there with Butch that, you know, I wish I had him at 50 years old now, you know what I mean? To, to see where he'd be at now. Right. And he was so far ahead where I was, you know, if he was only 50 now, not 80 or 90 in a home, would he be so far too? That you could, you know what I mean? Would he have jumped with the game too? And. So that, you know, that was my, and then I get into breeding, uh, only for four years, which I'll never do again. And, uh, like people don't realize how much work it is. John Gordon: Oh, yeah. That, that's another thing. The, the dedicated breeder, especially people who do it right. That is a 24 seven job. Paul McKinnon: Well, for eight weeks, you're tied down. And there's an absolute circus when they're on solid food, pooping everywhere. Right. You're cleaning stuff four or five times a day. And, uh, but you know, I learned a lot from it, realized I didn't want to do it. Uh, and I thought, well, if I can get the right dog, I definitely put him out to stud. Right. And I have no issues with anything, which actually put him at the stud. John Gordon: I think if anybody could just say, hey, create me a perfect Chesapeake, I think Jackson would, uh, would appear, uh, in thin air. He's awesome. Yeah. So lucky, man. I'm so lucky that way. You know, going back, we're talking about history a little bit and, you know, we're talking about, you know, the Chesapeake got such a bad reputation, but a lot of times it was deserved of being a surly animal. Right. And because the market gunner in the day, those people were surly themselves. Right. I mean, these are characters. These people hunted for a living. Okay. They live rough lives. They're watermen. Right. They were out there, you know, crabbing, hunting, whatever they do, guiding. Living on. Paul McKinnon: Well, I was out in those islands with Jeff last year. They lived out there. John Gordon: Yeah. Right. I wouldn't want to be out there in the winter. Oh. In the winter, I know it. And so, and so that dog, not only was it, it's a constant companion, but they relied on those dogs to protect people from stealing from them. Paul McKinnon: So, that dog had to be… Stealing stuff, protecting the shacks. John Gordon: Yeah. Had to be hardcore. And I think that created a dog, like you said, that could be, boy, you know, we've all heard stories, and I'm sure you've experienced it with them in the breed, that they were just, they could be They could be, like you said, just hard to handle. But I think the modern day Chesapeake, a lot of that is gone, from what I've seen. Paul McKinnon: Yeah, if they've been bred properly, if you do your research right, like most reputable breeders of Chesapeake's been doing it for decades, right? Now, you know, Jax, he's Burke. He's got a big Barker. I like that. I don't mind that. John Gordon: Yeah. Paul McKinnon: Tails wagging, but Hey, you're on my land. Right. And, but his tails wagging the whole time he's jumping on you. And, uh, but yeah, like anybody reputable there, you know, that's why I get out of breeding too. I learned my lesson. Uh, I wasn't given full disclosure on who I bred to. and the that one the bred twice actually all right and the first time a dog came back to me but that person the person that the dog came back was very I wasn't going to blame it on the dog, put it that way. But then the second time I read her the same dog, the mean come out and I'm going, where's this coming from? Right. And you start sniffing around and you know where it came from. And it's like, okay, like I can't be sending my dog to the States or, you know, spend the thousands of dollars up here if I don't know the dog. Now that's harder to get by with today, right? With social media, everybody's going to know. And, uh, so, you know, I said, if I'm going to breed, this could be my own dogs that I've had for a couple of years. And I know that everything's cool. And, uh, you know, buff, you know, if you have, you don't know, somebody could be a great person and they're a big hunter or they run hunt test. They could treat that dog like shit. You don't know. Right. And then the dog reacts and they come back to you and it's just like, Yeah. No time and no time for it. Right. Or my business was getting busy then and, and kids, you know, went through a divorce, kids, all that stuff, quit my job, started my business. And, uh, and you know, so that, uh, that got me out of that whole breeding aspect of it. But yeah, people have that history of the man. I couldn't imagine. I was worried about just boat breaking down out there. That's how the hell do we get valid here? We were like 20 minutes out in a 32-foot duff boat on some islands trying to shoot canvas facts. And it's just like, can you imagine this place? John Gordon: Oh, I know how wild it was then. Paul McKinnon: How wild it'd be back then. It's just like, wow. And I want to get down there for that, right? Like everything history-wise when we were there in February, it was closed. Right. So I want to get down for Easton, right? And actually go see all the stuff. and experience that stuff as a Chesapeake guy, which I haven't done yet. John Gordon: Yeah, great history, Easton. The Waterfowl Festival, you know, we filmed up there in the past. I haven't had a chance to go myself, but I really want to do that as well. But we have… That could be a Pauly and Johnny road trip. That's right. It sounded like a road trip to me, Pauly. I think we're going to have to definitely make that happen. Tell me something from a training perspective, now that you've got extensive experience with training chassis, what specific challenges do they really represent, right? You know, compared to just, you know, run-of-the-mill Labrador. We've talked about the mindless rabble of labs there. And they can be real easy to deal with sometimes, specific things. But, you know, me being a golden retriever guy, too, there's definitely ways you have to approach things. You really have to teach them in different manners, right? Paul McKinnon: No question. And, you know, everybody talks about you're trained to chess speak with a two by four, 25 years ago. It's the exact opposite now. John Gordon: Right. Paul McKinnon: Yeah. John Gordon: That's it. They can be very soft, right? Paul McKinnon: Very soft. And they're fair. If they mess up and they understand the correction, that's great. It's gone in 10 seconds. Let's go again. All right. If you haven't done your work and you're correcting, you know, they'll just shut down. And people think, oh, you know, they're actually gone the other way. I think maybe there was such an effort to breed that out of them that they might have, there's a lot of them that are quite soft, right? And you see some Chesapeake's like, and you know, you look at them, what a beautiful animal, walking out to marks and, and you're gone. Scared of their own shadow, right? Scared of his own shadow and why that's not his fault, right? And, uh, you know, I wouldn't say it's a negotiation. But it's more of a team sport with them, where if you look at our field trial labs and even some gold is right now, right. As compared to high test, they're quite a bit higher and you really need to know what you're doing to stay on top of them. Right. You can't have holes in your game or you're into noise or you're into creeping and breaking and, uh, And, and you can look at those good breeds and, and Chesapeake's are the same. It's just sort of a little different approach. Like I can go teach him a certain blind concept, a down the shore one, you know, do it with white stakes for a couple of days, no white stakes and come back. It's like, he always remembers it. Right, he always remembers it. Sometimes it's my mistake that he remembers the concept in that spot, but I probably should have done it five or six times in other spots. Other spots, right. Right? And then that's a handler error on my part, trainer error. But yeah, like it's, it's a softer approach, I think. Yeah. I think that's a good way to put it, Johnny. Like they're, uh, you know, like I said, you can get on them if you have to. Uh, and they're so loyal and fixated and connected to you that they almost feel bad when they mess up. Right. Like you see, like, and Jax is so sensitive to me. Like there's times, I don't know if you noticed, if we're sitting around here, we'll get an animator about this or that, or, you know, and, you know, giving each other hard times. I raise my voice, he comes up and gets in my lap. And I've learned that in training. There's a couple of times if he's sort of blowing me off a little bit and just the cadence of my whistle, if I hammer him, sit, he goes, Oh, chef, I'm in trouble. Right. And I, last year I got this freeze. So I was going, okay, what, where was I getting that from and why? And then Stacy brought it up. She goes, you see, like, even when you're joking with your friends, if you get in your, she goes, you're boisterous sometimes and loud and animated and opinionated. That sets him off. He comes to you. He goes, so you should transition that to your training. Right. So he's very, you know what I mean? Sensitive to your moods. Right. He's sensitive to my mood. So when I'm getting frustrated, he's sensing that and he's going, geez, dad, sorry. What do you want me to do? Right. Even though it was his fault and I have to walk out and correct him. to do it right or show them and uh but yeah a big learning curve especially the last year right because we missed a year basically then we missed seven weeks last year and and we were like trying to qualify for master national push push push push no balance in our training whatsoever just holding on for dear life at each event right to try to buy yeah Yeah. And, uh, and anyway, we missed by one, that was fine. And, but we went to the master national, we had three or four great days. Right. We had one day, they scrapped the test. Right. So we did our job and, uh, and then the next, you know, one day he blew up, but the whole bunch of dogs blew up. And, but the other days he, you know, if he had a head good days in those other two days, we might've qualified, but it was an eye opener. Right. But I was there and there was no pressure. Here we go. Let's go have fun. John Gordon: That's good. I saw some of the, some of the runs he made as test dog and I was like, man, I mean, yeah, he should be right there, you know, collecting the plate. Paul McKinnon: Yeah. He's there, right? He was especially there at the end of last year. Like once the Master National was over, we had a whole month of just training, working on some stuff, training, and he went out and just hammered his last day. And, and the test he passed where, where I was just, okay, everything's calm, relax. Right. And so he was a good learning experience for me. And he, and I played with him a little bit there, like on that first land series, 49 dodge ran. If Johnny, if that was a weekend master test and not the master national on day one, they would have dropped half that, at least half of that field. And it was just because of that short middle bird. John Gordon: The short middle bird is rough sometimes. Paul McKinnon: Like he's right in front of you and you got to run by him to do the blinds. So I said, and he's always been good at primary selection. So I said, I got nothing to lose. I'm going to pick off a short little one, which should be the last one first and get it out of the way. Right? And everybody's going, what are you doing? I don't know. He did okay. And my thought was if I get that one out of the way, then he's got to go here. Then he's got to go long, which was really the go bird up the hill. He goes back and goes in the blind and then there's a shot and he goes back out to run the blind. Well, you know, this shouldn't, this should take that short word in front of the meta play, right? Sort of wipe his memory of it a little bit and get him out of there. And, uh, no, we, we had a blast, right? We, we pushed too hard and we had to tidy some things up after, after the master national before we went and ran in September. But, uh, You know, we, I would just like a one summer with a, a paw infection or tearing of the tooth off or, you know, get sick or, you know, just one full summer. And this is why, you know, hopefully, uh, we got parents that are, that are struggling health wise. So I'll make that decision the next three weeks, but. We're going to go to Mississippi, as you know, down to Kevin Schaaf's bootcamp. And then we're going over with Adam Campbell and Lauren Langevin at Hillside Kennels for a week or so. Can't wait just to meet Adam. Yeah, great guy. Yeah, he seems like a great guy. He reached out to me. And I said, you sure it's okay to come? Cause Lauren invited me and the pro that trains with him, he's from up here and they reached out. No cost. I got a camper here for you. Just bring a blanket, right? Like, don't worry about it. Can't wait to meet Chad. So just to do that stuff and then stopping with coats on the way home. And he's got, he's training with some very experienced field trial people. Amazing grounds. I don't know if you have, I'm sure you follow him, but see some of the grounds he's trained on around Maryland, like 15 minutes from his house, like. Holy cow. Right. And to be in the water. John Gordon: Yeah. And those grounds you're going to have Alex Washburn's and Paulie, he's going to blow you away. I'm going to tell you the pictures blow me away. Just being there, you're like, this is retriever heaven. It really is. You can work on any concept literally you can think of in that place. Anything. The water is all there from technical water to stick pond water to long swim, short swims, crossing multiple points, long entries. It's a paradise of water setups. It really is. Paul McKinnon: Well, and you got the sheet, right? And I'm looking at it and I go, when you get to the gate, press this code, because it's a gated firm. You press the go, come into the rice. When you get down there to sort of get checked in and get your bears, don't let the dogs out because all the horses are down here. And it's just like, holy cow. John Gordon: It is a paradise, man. Paul McKinnon: You're going to love it. Yeah. Like, and everyone was all, you're going to be in the water for three weeks, three and a half weeks before anybody else. And I said, yeah, yeah, I am. My goal is to spend that time with Kevin Schaaf every day. And with Lauren and Adam every day to be better. If I can get 10 or 15% better, me and Jax will be 15 or 20% better. And, and so that's, that's my goal. And just, you know, it's a road trip, but we've talked about it. We're all losing friends. We're all, you know, so we're, we're going to start doing things. I'm not waiting for my buddies. Yeah. John Gordon: That's my motto now, Paulie. That's why I was in Prince Edward Island and drove up there. You're going to experience that drive coming down. Paul McKinnon: My goal is to get by New York on day one, because the way I look at it, and if I quote Mario Colom all around, I can go straight down to Memphis on another highway and not go sort of east or east of the I-95. John Gordon: I went farther out that way because I wanted to see the countryside, right? I understand why you want to go that route, but I tell you what, some of the stuff I saw from, you know, Vermont, New Hampshire, upstate New York. Beautiful country. Wow. Paul McKinnon: Unbelievable. Beautiful country. So, so, yeah. So, I guess we can sort of get off-tansit there a little bit. John Gordon: Yeah. We're not talking about Chesapeake anymore, are we? Yeah. Well, we are. Here's a question. Are there any specific health concerns that are directly related to Chesapeake? You know, I mean, it seemed like every sporting dog has got some kind of dysplasia issues, maybe, or eye problems. I don't know if there was anything more specific to Chessies. Paul McKinnon: I don't think there is. I think Chessies are more prone to DM, maybe. Degenerative myopathy, I think it's called. Actually, one of my dogs, Devil, got it at 11 months old. And we had to put them down, uh, or 11 years old, sorry. And, uh, but really like when you do the testing, like I just get all jacks is like, it's all the same tests, right? Like EIC and you know, Chessie does have a long coat, uh, a long coat genetic test that their coat can be too long. So maybe that'd be the only one that's really not within the norm. Everything else, hip size, elbows, you know, EIC, DM. What's the other one? There's another one I'm missing there, John. Maybe I'm thinking DM, but I think labs test for that too. John Gordon: Yeah, that's something I've seen with breeding over the last, you know, couple of decades, especially as people paying much, much more attention. And now that in the past, when I was growing up as a kid, there was no genetic testing, DNA panels and all that, nothing. Right now, you can really dive into a dog's background, and you can see if it's a carrier, if it's clear. There was nothing like that. So, it's come so far. Paul McKinnon: Something like that. Well, I think on the MBARC test, there's 260 genetic tests. John Gordon: Yeah. Paul McKinnon: Right? And they go through them all, and they say not breed-specific, breed-specific, all the way through, right? And then they just give you sort of a clear, which we knew anyway, he was clear by percentage anyway. But you got to have them, right? If you're going to put him out to a stud dog. So I don't think there's anything abnormal other than maybe the DM. I don't think, I'd have to see if the, my lab guys test for that or Golden's test for that, Charlie. Not that I've seen, Paulie. I don't think so. I think it's more, maybe that's the, that and the long coat gene. And I think the long coat ones are real, uh, real slim type of chance, you know, way back there or whatever, however you say that genetically. But, uh, I think the DEM would be maybe the big difference for sure. I got you. I got you. John Gordon: Any, any advice you would give somebody looking to get into the Chesapeake breed, Paulie? Paul McKinnon: Yeah, like, like there, there's lots of guys here in the Marathons. There's some young guys that, you know, hardcore waterfowlers. One of them, a couple of them actually guide with up at St. Lawrence Outfitters with their dogs. And it's just like, you know, really go educate yourself about the breed. Talk to the breeders cuz the breeders we have in the guys in the maritimes that have dogs are knowledgeable chassis guys they been doing it there's three guys like myself and and philip williams of dot code retrievers and and lori way of working dog retrievers like you know us three you know. You're tough 30, 40, 50 years. Right. And we've got some young guys, uh, that are into it a little more and stuff like that, you know, 30, 40, 50 years each of doing that. So really knowledgeable guys on the breed and, uh, and you know, not, and today, like he can say around the Maritimes, but he got Mariel Beauregard who'd probably be the. one of the top breeders, period, in North America. He's been doing it for so long, right? And these guys are all open to talk to you and, you know, work with you and whatever. And, and I think the days of having to be the right person to have a chest beat, I think those have changed. Like we talked about, like those sort of harder head dogs and you know, that whole, you know, that whole reputation or you got to beat them to into doing the work and stuff like that. Like there was probably a whole lot of great dogs that got beat into not work. John Gordon: Right. Got ruined. Paul McKinnon: Got ruined. Right. And that's across all breeds, right? John Gordon: Yeah, exactly. Paul McKinnon: Hammer them with too much pressure. Doesn't have to be a Chesapeake to do that, but I think it took them a little longer to outlive that, you know, that reputation. And I think, you know, family dogs and… Like Jax is protective of the girls, boy. And you wouldn't, you know, and he's never had a bad bone in his body, but you'd stop from opening that door to go in there if I wasn't home. John Gordon: Oh, that's for sure. I'm going to tell you that from, from being around Jax. Yeah. Just the bark, right? Yeah. Paul McKinnon: It's all bark and no bite, but we like the bark. And, uh, but just loyal family companions, great with kids. And, uh, you know, I think those days are over. I think you go to a reputable breeder. Now you're going to get great dog. Excellent. Excellent. John Gordon: Paulie, thanks so much for your time. And, uh, you know, it's, uh, I'd say it was great being up there with y'all and PEI and experiences and yeah, that's for sure. That's for sure. Paul McKinnon: So, and I'll, I'll look closer at my schedule and see, I don't have the schedule yet for, when I'm in Mississippi, like what the days look like. There are certain days Alex hosts us for supper and the group goes out for supper, different stuff. John Gordon: Uh, but I'll let you know. Come, come, come down to my country, Paulie. Yeah. How far, you're just a couple of hours from there? Oh no, actually from Alex's place, about an hour. Oh, I see. I live close. Paul McKinnon: We got to go for a steak or. John Gordon: Oh yeah. We, yeah, that's a definite, that's a, that's a hundred percent. Paul McKinnon: An early whiskey and you're driving. You're getting, you're getting, you're getting me back to camp. John Gordon: Oh, man. Thanks so much, Paul McKinnon from Prince Edward Island, Canada, for talking Chesapeake Bear Retrievers. And thanks to everybody out there for listening to the Ducks Unlimited podcast and supporting wetlands and waterfowl conservation.