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How to Protect Tuna: Insights from ISSF's Gala Moreno on Sustainable Fisheries · How To Protect The Ocean

• 1:00:00
  What is the status of Tuna
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  conservation?
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  That's going to be the focus on
• 1:00:04
  today's episode of the How to
• 1:00:05
  Protect the Ocean podcast,
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  especially when it comes to
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  sustainable fisheries.
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  On the podcast today, my guest,
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  Dr. Galla Moreno from the
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  International Seafood
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  Sustainability Foundation is here
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  to talk about fish aggregation
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  devices and how they've improved
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  over time to actually become
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  a data storing and
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  capability of learning more about
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  oceanography on the high seas and
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  to be able to even detect
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  which species is below that fish
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  aggregation devices.
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  We're going to talk about what fads are
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  and how they play a role in conserving
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  tuna fish in commercial fishing on this
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  episode of the How to
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  Protect the Ocean podcast.
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  Let's start the show.
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  Hey, everybody.
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  Welcome back to another exciting episode
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  of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
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  I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is
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  the podcast where you find out what's
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  happening with the ocean,
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  how you can speak up for the ocean, what
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  you can do to live for a
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  better ocean by taking action.
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  If you want to know more about like, hey,
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  is this tuna in my poke bowl sustainable?
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  Like, is it caught sustainably?
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  Is it something that I should be eating
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  or is it something
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  that shouldn't be eating?
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  What constitutes as sustainable when we
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  talk about tuna commercial fishing?
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  And you've heard probably a lot of
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  different things about how,
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  you know, tuna are caught.
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  We've heard in the past how, you know,
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  tuna are caught with dolphins so that
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  there's sometimes there's, you know,
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  dolphins that die within
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  the tuna fishing industry.
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  And should you be
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  even tuna based on that?
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  We don't, we don't know a lot of the
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  times it gets really confusing.
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  Dr. Gallo Moreno talks about some of the
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  advances in conservation that have been
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  done through the fishing industry.
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  And the organization that she works for,
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  the International Seafood Sustainability
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  Foundation, works with a variety of
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  different fleets across the world to look
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  at tuna and how tuna are fish and how
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  they can improve not only the efficiency
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  of catching tuna, but catching the actual
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  species that they want and being able to
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  distinguish them that
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  are below the surface.
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  Like when you get a fish aggregation
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  device, it brings in fish from all over.
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  A lot of tuna are coming in.
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  So what species of tuna are you going to
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  fish for at that point?
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  Before the information that we talked to
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  Gallo about on this episode, you would
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  just put a per se net in, grab it and
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  grab whatever's out there.
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  Now you can actually distinguish which,
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  like how much of a percentage of a
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  certain species is there.
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  So if one needs to be protected more than
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  others, then you can actually go and
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  catch the others and leave the protected
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  ones out and you can protect them more.
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  So a lot of cool research that we talk
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  about in this episode.
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  So without further ado, here is Dr. Gallo
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  Moreno from the International Seafood
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  Sustainability Foundation talking about
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  fish aggregation devices and the data
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  that comes with it and is the
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  conservation of tuna.
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  Enjoy the interview and
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  I will talk to you after.
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  Hey, Gallo, welcome to the How
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  to Protect the Ocean podcast.
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  Are you ready to talk
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  about sustainable seafood?
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  Yeah, I'm excited.
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  Thank you, Andrew.
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  You bet. I'm excited to have you on.
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  This is going to be a lot of fun.
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  This is something that we don't get to
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  talk about all the time is sustainable
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  seafood and fishing and sustainable
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  practices in fishing, especially around
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  fish aggregation, aggregation devices.
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  It's something that is known within the
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  seafood industry and the fishing
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  industry, but it's not something we talk
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  about publicly a lot.
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  And I feel as though some of my audience
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  members, even me, I don't know if I have
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  a full understanding of fish aggregation,
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  aggregation devices.
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  I haven't worked with them a lot.
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  So we're going to talk a lot about that
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  and how it affects fisheries and how we
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  can do better with with FADs and fish
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  aggregation devices.
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  And I'm looking forward to
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  doing all that on this episode.
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  But before we do, Kelly, why don't you
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  just let us know who
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  you are and what you do?
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  Yeah, sure.
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  I'm Gala Moreno and I'm senior scientist
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  with International Seafood
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  Sustainability Foundation.
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  We call it ISSF.
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  And well, I just started working with
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  tuna fleets and fish
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  aggregating devices in my PhD.
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  I did it 20 years ago or so.
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  And since then, I've been working in all
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  the oceans and three tropical oceans with
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  fleets with local scientists to reduce
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  the impact of fishing with fish
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  aggregating devices.
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  Focus.
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  Most of my research focus on this.
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  But of course, I work also in other tuna
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  fleets when they did.
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  Well, when we talk about tuna fleets, and
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  we'll get into more of this later on, it
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  is such a broad scope.
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  When we talk about tuna fleets, I think I
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  think we hear about
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  it a lot in the public.
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  We don't really get how vast they are and
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  where they where they
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  work, how many there are.
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  It's quite astonishing to hear, you know,
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  and we're going to hear from it in a bit
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  when we when we chat more about it.
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  But I always feel like
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  we hear about a fleet.
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  It is a fleet.
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  It literally is like, you know, hundreds
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  of boats and there are
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  different fleets all over the world.
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  And it's it's it's hard to
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  keep track of all of them.
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  Sure.
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  Which I think is is
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  is one of the problems.
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  But it's it's yeah, it's definitely
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  interesting and probably working with
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  those fleets who probably get a lot of
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  hands on experience, especially through
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  through a PhD, which I
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  think is I think it's amazing.
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  But let's just talk about how you got to
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  where you are and learn a
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  little bit more about you.
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  What got you interested in becoming in a
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  position where you are today?
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  Like, how did that happen?
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  Were you interested in the ocean when you
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  were when you were younger?
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  Did you live by the ocean?
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  How did that all come to be?
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  So, OK, well, it's a mix of influences.
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  And well, my family will
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  live in the Basque country.
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  We come from the Basque country and this
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  is in the north of Spain.
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  And this region is has a very strong
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  maritime tradition and fishing tradition.
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  So I will always surrounded by by the sea
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  and the love for the sea.
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  And by that time when I was a kid, they
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  were not influencers,
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  no internet, no mobile.
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  So my influencer was my neighbor.
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  He was biologist and he
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  showed me many documentaries.
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  And I was fascinated with
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  those all these documentaries.
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  So this is it's it's been
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  surrounded by by the sea.
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  And then so I have very clear that I
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  wanted to study marine science.
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  And then at the university, I have a very
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  good teacher on physics management.
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  And he made motivated me a
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  lot to pursue that career.
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  So it was quite easy.
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  I can imagine. Yeah.
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  Having a neighbor that's a biologist that
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  that was that's that's got to be.
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  You know, you don't get that often, you
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  know, you know,
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  depending on where you live.
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  But having that maritime feeling living
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  by the coast and you probably had a lot
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  of there's probably a fishing community.
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  There's I'm sure there's biologists that
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  are there that are working there.
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  So I think that's really great.
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  And you've had a lot of mentors, as you
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  mentioned, what was the best advice that
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  you received from those that really made
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  you be like, no, this is
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  this is what I want to do.
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  Well, I think that the best advice you
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  can receive from any mentor
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  or even your family or any is
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  pursue what you like, do
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  what you feel is your interest.
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  Don't worry about the future.
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  Just follow what you love.
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  So I think many of the teachers, they
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  encourage me to to do what.
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  And of course, I think that you are good
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  when you like something.
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  You are. Yeah. You're
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  good at that. For sure.
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  Yeah, no, absolutely.
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  I think it's the passion definitely
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  follows, especially when you talk about
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  marine biology, fisheries,
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  biology, fisheries management.
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  It's such a big aspect of it.
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  I think it's different.
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  And you can probably say the same thing
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  or you can tell me if you
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  feel the same way in Europe.
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  But like when you have when you become a
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  marine biologist, it's
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  more than just a job.
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  You know, it's it really is a passion.
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  And you'll you'll find like a lot of
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  biologists willing to
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  work for free, which is not.
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  Yes. You know, like you look at any other
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  just like, what do you
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  mean you'd work for free?
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  Like, yeah, I would do this for free.
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  Yeah, because you you enjoy like the
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  ocean that you'd be on your on boats,
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  whether it's a fishing boat or a research
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  boat or whatever that might be, you get
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  to be on these boats and you get to like
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  see the ocean and and like dolphin bow
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  riding on your along your ship.
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  And, you know, you get to see these tuna
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  fish that are that are
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  massive and and just gorgeous.
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  And it's just one of those things where
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  it's like I don't think people understand
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  outside of being biologists, whether it's
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  wildlife biology or marine biology,
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  but it really is something
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  that I I don't know about you.
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  Like, obviously, I want to retire and I
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  want to enjoy myself, but I can't see
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  myself stop doing
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  marine biology in retirement.
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  I feel like that would become my happy.
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  You know, that's what it is.
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  I've never thought about
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  retiring and not doing that.
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  It's never never happened.
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  Maybe when I get older, I
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  don't know, but I'm almost there.
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  So it's not too far off.
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  So about 20 years away.
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  So we'll see what how I feel then.
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  But you never know.
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  But I think that's it's really
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  interesting to get to that point.
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  But fisheries management is not something
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  that when you're younger, like I want to
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  be, you know, involved in fisheries.
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  I want to be a fisheries manager.
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  A lot of times I don't work with dolphins
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  or I want to work with sharks.
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  And but as you got closer and you had
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  that professor fisheries manager, what
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  was it about fisheries management that
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  got you to be like, yeah, this is this is
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  where my passion lies,
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  is where I want to follow.
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  Because it's not an
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  easy thing to do, right?
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  No, it's quite complex and involves many
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  actors and especially with tuna that is a
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  migratory species worldwide distribution.
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  So it's not easy.
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  But for me, what's the path was quite
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  natural because as soon as I finished my
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  PhD, I went on board with a person or a
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  scientific observer in the Indian Ocean.
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  And so I really understood at sea the old
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  implications of how fishers behave,
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  strategies, fishing.
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  And then I was starting tuna behavior,
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  but I also studied fish
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  behavior while I was at sea.
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  So once I finished my PhD, I had quite
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  clear that I wanted to improve fisheries
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  management and taking into account
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  fishers and their knowledge.
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  So it was quite evident
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  for me that was the way.
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  That's awesome. I've always had a great
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  opportunity to be on
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  fishing boats and meet fishers.
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  And I love the culture.
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  I love the way they act like they all
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  everybody's unique every time you go on a
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  different ship and you can see it.
• 1:10:50
  But as a fisheries observer, I've I've
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  seen, you know, I've I've never been on
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  as a fisheries observer.
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  I've been on as a marine mammal observer,
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  but never a fisheries observer.
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  So I felt it a little bit.
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  And there's there are things like it's
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  really it's really interesting because
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  you get a lot of great experience as a
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  fisheries biologist because you get to
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  see all these different fish.
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  You could see how it's done.
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  You know, you can see how many how
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  quickly how quickly it happens.
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  You know, when the fish come aboard, you
• 1:11:14
  have to identify them and measure them
• 1:11:16
  and all this kind of stuff.
• 1:11:18
  But there's there's a little bit of
• 1:11:19
  contention when you're an observer on a
• 1:11:21
  fishing boat on a fishing boat, because
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  some of the crew may not like you being
• 1:11:25
  there because you're
• 1:11:26
  there as a regulatory.
• 1:11:27
  Were you there as a as a research
• 1:11:29
  capacity or is more of
• 1:11:29
  a regulatory capacity?
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  I've been at both research.
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  OK, yes. I've been researching and also
• 1:11:36
  like following compliance.
• 1:11:39
  Gotcha. So how was that different when
• 1:11:41
  you like for those for both the research
• 1:11:44
  as well as the compliance
• 1:11:45
  for you when you were in there?
• 1:11:47
  Like, do you find that there was more of
• 1:11:50
  of like there was more of contention,
• 1:11:53
  like more of a conflict when they when
• 1:11:55
  you're on as compliance
• 1:11:56
  rather than the research?
• 1:12:00
  In my case, I can say that there are hubs
• 1:12:05
  in the beginning when
• 1:12:06
  you arrive at the vessel.
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  Right. Like the first impression when you
• 1:12:11
  go for compliance, it can be harder in
• 1:12:16
  the beginning to be
• 1:12:20
  respected by the crew.
• 1:12:21
  Yes. But if but if you have the tools, I
• 1:12:25
  mean, the emotional skills and the
• 1:12:27
  knowledge you can you can be I mean, for
• 1:12:31
  me, I can distinguish when I was on board
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  for research or for compliance.
• 1:12:38
  Just in the beginning. But when you set
• 1:12:40
  the rules, I mean, is when OK, I'm here.
• 1:12:43
  Yeah. And of course, sometimes there are
• 1:12:47
  some moments in which in the beginning
• 1:12:51
  they they try to how do you say, see what
• 1:12:56
  is your opinion about things.
• 1:13:00
  And in the beginning, there is like.
• 1:13:01
  They are they are testing you that right
• 1:13:05
  if you pass the test, it's fine.
• 1:13:09
  Yeah, exactly. I totally get that. I can
• 1:13:12
  see that because it's also from a
• 1:13:14
  research perspective.
• 1:13:15
  A lot of these fishers doesn't matter
• 1:13:17
  anybody on the crew,
• 1:13:18
  what what their role is.
• 1:13:19
  They're generally interested in what you
• 1:13:21
  do, you know, from a research
• 1:13:22
  perspective, like they're interested in
• 1:13:23
  where the data goes,
• 1:13:24
  how it's done, the trends.
• 1:13:26
  I mean, a lot of times they know the
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  trends more than we do, just from what
• 1:13:29
  they've seen and how
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  long it takes to catch.
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  And where they're catching more or less,
• 1:13:32
  they see that happen.
• 1:13:33
  They can come up with different reasons
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  why some of them are scientific.
• 1:13:37
  Some of them are a
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  little folklore and so forth.
• 1:13:39
  But it's really
• 1:13:40
  interesting to interact with them.
• 1:13:44
  You know, it's it from a perspective of
• 1:13:46
  being on a ship, you know,
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  I've had that perspective.
• 1:13:50
  But being on a ship as a
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  woman is a lot different. Right.
• 1:13:55
  It's it's it's you know, there's certain
• 1:13:57
  concessions like during on the ship
• 1:13:59
  because you have to have your
• 1:14:00
  you know, your own room and stuff like
• 1:14:01
  I've been bunking with four other guys in
• 1:14:04
  the in one cabin and stuff like that.
• 1:14:07
  What's it like as as a as a woman to go
• 1:14:09
  on one of these ships?
• 1:14:11
  Can it be intimidating at times?
• 1:14:14
  Do you find that the crew
• 1:14:15
  it might be nicer to you?
• 1:14:18
  How is that? How is that different?
• 1:14:20
  Well, it highly depends on the crew.
• 1:14:23
  Yeah.
• 1:14:23
  I mean, it's like when you go to a
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  research team and they are
• 1:14:29
  they can be very different.
• 1:14:31
  Right.
• 1:14:32
  I have not had any issue. I've been
• 1:14:34
  always I can tell you
• 1:14:36
  in the Spanish vessels.
• 1:14:38
  I never had any issue
• 1:14:40
  because of being a woman.
• 1:14:49
  But I know that that's
• 1:14:51
  not just that I know that.
• 1:14:54
  Sometimes women have issues. I mean, it
• 1:14:56
  has not been my case on board vessels.
• 1:15:00
  I was respected and I
• 1:15:02
  had I mean, no, no problem.
• 1:15:05
  That's good with them. Yeah.
• 1:15:08
  But I know that it's happened. Sometimes
• 1:15:11
  it's hard for women to go on board.
• 1:15:13
  I mean, it's when you for instance, in a
• 1:15:16
  person or you can be
• 1:15:17
  surrounded by 28 men working.
• 1:15:22
  So yeah, but you know, I think I'm I'm
• 1:15:27
  quite used to be
• 1:15:28
  surrounded by men in my work.
• 1:15:32
  I mean, yeah, in science when I started
• 1:15:34
  with with acoustics or sonar technology,
• 1:15:39
  I was surrounded by men also.
• 1:15:41
  Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's it's
• 1:15:43
  it's it's especially, you know, in our
• 1:15:46
  generation to when you as you as you come
• 1:15:48
  up, there were a lot more men in the
• 1:15:49
  field, especially in fishing.
• 1:15:50
  It's it's it's more of a predominantly
• 1:15:53
  male sort of of of field.
• 1:15:58
  We're starting to see a lot more female
• 1:15:59
  scientists come through a lot more.
• 1:16:01
  I mean, it's been
• 1:16:02
  happening for 20 even 20 years ago.
• 1:16:04
  It was starting to happen and we're
• 1:16:05
  trying to see that
• 1:16:06
  more and more and more.
• 1:16:07
  What advice would you give them if they
• 1:16:08
  want to be a fisheries observer, whether
• 1:16:10
  it be for compliance or
• 1:16:11
  whether it be for research?
• 1:16:13
  What advice would you give a lot of these
• 1:16:14
  young scientists that want to get some
• 1:16:16
  experience and and, you know, fisheries
• 1:16:18
  observer is a good good way to get that.
• 1:16:20
  Well, I'm sure for women, I'm sure it's a
• 1:16:27
  really good experience for for for them
• 1:16:31
  also for the crew to have women on board.
• 1:16:34
  Yeah, true.
• 1:16:36
  And well, I would say that
• 1:16:38
  my advice is to to go for it.
• 1:16:42
  I mean, it's it's the same advice I would
• 1:16:46
  I would give for anybody or especially
• 1:16:51
  women in science because too often women
• 1:16:56
  think that, oh, I don't deserve this.
• 1:16:59
  I'm not going to
• 1:17:00
  measure up on this position.
• 1:17:02
  I'm not going to go on board because I
• 1:17:05
  fear that I don't know.
• 1:17:06
  So I think they should go for it even if
• 1:17:10
  they think they are not ready.
• 1:17:13
  They should go.
• 1:17:15
  Yes, you're right.
• 1:17:17
  You have the degree.
• 1:17:18
  You know, you have the degree.
• 1:17:19
  You've done the schooling.
• 1:17:20
  You've done the IDs.
• 1:17:22
  It's and you learn
• 1:17:23
  quickly on those boats to write.
• 1:17:25
  You learn very quickly.
• 1:17:26
  Very.
• 1:17:27
  Yeah.
• 1:17:28
  Awesome.
• 1:17:28
  Okay.
• 1:17:29
  Now, let's talk about ISSF.
• 1:17:31
  You've been you've been there almost a
• 1:17:33
  decade from from what I've seen.
• 1:17:35
  What I've seen in my research of you.
• 1:17:38
  Yeah.
• 1:17:38
  How like how did that all
• 1:17:41
  start like working with ISSF?
• 1:17:43
  Was that out of your PhD or had you
• 1:17:45
  worked in other places before?
• 1:17:47
  I was before in another research
• 1:17:49
  Institute in Spain called Asti.
• 1:17:52
  Okay, but I was already working for ISSF
• 1:17:57
  in some specific issues
• 1:18:00
  with features and research.
• 1:18:01
  So in the end, I end up
• 1:18:04
  in in ISSF 10 years ago.
• 1:18:07
  Yes, but mostly I continue doing same
• 1:18:11
  topics and research.
• 1:18:13
  But because ISSF works globally now that
• 1:18:18
  before I was more
• 1:18:20
  focused on the Spanish fleets.
• 1:18:22
  Right.
• 1:18:22
  And now I work globally.
• 1:18:25
  Okay.
• 1:18:26
  What's that like the change from going
• 1:18:28
  just in Spain to working globally?
• 1:18:30
  What are the what's the fun part of it?
• 1:18:34
  And what are the challenges of it?
• 1:18:36
  Well, I have for me is wonderful.
• 1:18:41
  Yeah, I don't I don't sometimes the issue
• 1:18:45
  of having calls very late at night.
• 1:18:50
  Oh, yeah.
• 1:18:51
  Different time zones.
• 1:18:51
  Yeah.
• 1:18:52
  This is the practical issue.
• 1:18:54
  Sometimes I have to work with New
• 1:18:57
  Caledonia or Hawaii.
• 1:18:57
  And this is very like for me.
• 1:19:03
  Then for me, the adventure of working
• 1:19:04
  globally is very good because I have I
• 1:19:10
  love meeting people working with people
• 1:19:13
  and learning from them exchanging ideas.
• 1:19:17
  So when you visit so many fleets, so many
• 1:19:19
  people, so many cultures, there's a lot
• 1:19:22
  of diversity diversity.
• 1:19:23
  And I love it.
• 1:19:25
  I like it.
• 1:19:25
  Yeah, I can imagine. It must be a lot different to go from
• 1:19:31
  just sort of in country and then globally
• 1:19:33
  and to see how things are done in
• 1:19:36
  different areas of the world with the
• 1:19:38
  same type of maybe not the same type of
• 1:19:40
  species, but the same type of fish and to
• 1:19:43
  be able to see how that's changed
• 1:19:44
  culturally and how that's changed from
• 1:19:46
  even from a logistics point of view.
• 1:19:49
  So I think that's that's really that's really interesting.
• 1:19:49
  Now your work, you said you
• 1:19:54
  work with a lot of fleets.
• 1:19:56
  Can you talk about the what what that
• 1:19:58
  entails when you work
• 1:19:59
  with a lot of fleets?
• 1:20:01
  Well, I'm mainly working with tropical
• 1:20:05
  tuna Persine fleets.
• 1:20:06
  This is a specific fishing gear, although
• 1:20:10
  I've been working also
• 1:20:11
  with Portland Line fleets.
• 1:20:13
  Well, I've been working with mainly industrial fishing gear. That's that rely a lot on the use of fish
• 1:20:22
  aggregating devices.
• 1:20:25
  So for instance, I work with Ecuadorian
• 1:20:29
  fleets, Columbia, Papua New
• 1:20:33
  Guinea, Ghana, Philippines.
• 1:20:37
  So I work with very different cultures.
• 1:20:38
  Right. Strategies. Some some are
• 1:20:47
  more attached to traditions.
• 1:20:49
  So you learn you have always something to
• 1:20:52
  learn and also something to share because
• 1:20:55
  when you work globally, you can it's like a cross Polynesian, pro-lin-ish,
• 1:20:58
  pro-lin-ish,
• 1:21:02
  pro-lin-ish of the ideas you have.
• 1:21:07
  So perhaps something that is working in
• 1:21:09
  Ecuador or some feature tell you see I've
• 1:21:13
  been using this practice and
• 1:21:15
  it works for sharks or whatever.
• 1:21:17
  You can go to
• 1:21:18
  Philippines and I'm sure this idea.
• 1:21:22
  So it's it's really
• 1:21:23
  nice to work globally.
• 1:21:25
  I can imagine.
• 1:21:25
  Yeah. Now you mentioned a lot of them use
• 1:21:28
  Persane nets, right?
• 1:21:31
  Can you talk about what that is for the
• 1:21:32
  audience to like what it actually what
• 1:21:34
  the devices like what that fishing gear
• 1:21:36
  is the fish aggregating device?
• 1:21:39
  No, sorry, the Persane nets.
• 1:21:42
  The Persane. Yeah.
• 1:21:44
  Persane is a fishing gear which uses a
• 1:21:49
  fishing net that encircles the fish.
• 1:21:54
  So they deploy the net and then they
• 1:21:56
  encircle the fish with the net and they
• 1:21:58
  close it on the bottom.
• 1:22:00
  It is a pursuit and they then they
• 1:22:03
  retrieve the the the whole there.
• 1:22:06
  The next so this becomes like it's it's
• 1:22:08
  almost like a net where they come up and
• 1:22:09
  they're all at the bottom of
• 1:22:10
  the net as they bring it up.
• 1:22:13
  Let's talk, so we have the,
• 1:22:15
  that's how they catch them.
• 1:22:16
  So they encircle them, they bring them up
• 1:22:17
  and that's how they catch them.
• 1:22:18
  Let's talk about fish
• 1:22:19
  aggregation devices.
• 1:22:21
  You know, can you just
• 1:22:22
  talk about what that is?
• 1:22:24
  Like just define it for the audience
• 1:22:25
  and then we can go into the different
• 1:22:27
  ones that they have.
• 1:22:29
  Okay.
• 1:22:30
  So fish aggregating
• 1:22:31
  devices are floating objects,
• 1:22:34
  human made floating objects.
• 1:22:35
  So they are typically
• 1:22:37
  a floating structure
• 1:22:38
  that has two components.
• 1:22:40
  One is the surface component,
• 1:22:42
  which is typically a raft.
• 1:22:45
  And then it has a tail that
• 1:22:47
  can reach up to 50 meters,
• 1:22:51
  depending on the ocean,
• 1:22:52
  but they see an average of 50 meters.
• 1:22:55
  And these are used
• 1:22:57
  with a geolocating voice.
• 1:23:00
  So the fishing strategy is that fishers,
• 1:23:03
  they deploy this
• 1:23:04
  floating structure at sea
• 1:23:06
  with a geolocating boy
• 1:23:10
  that nowadays provide an estimate of the
• 1:23:13
  biomass beneath the fat.
• 1:23:16
  So they deploy it and leave it adrift for
• 1:23:19
  a couple of weeks or a month.
• 1:23:22
  And once they think or
• 1:23:24
  they see in the eco-sounders
• 1:23:27
  that tuna is around
• 1:23:29
  their floating object,
• 1:23:30
  they go and catch it.
• 1:23:33
  So this is the strategy and the structure
• 1:23:36
  of the fish aggregating device.
• 1:23:39
  Now there are different
• 1:23:40
  devices though, right?
• 1:23:42
  And it's all based on what works in
• 1:23:44
  different parts of the
• 1:23:45
  world and things like that.
• 1:23:47
  Are there like, you know, hundreds of
• 1:23:49
  different devices or are
• 1:23:51
  they pretty much the same?
• 1:23:53
  Like how different
• 1:23:54
  are they when you start,
• 1:23:55
  like say when you look at a fish
• 1:23:57
  aggregating device that's used in Hawaii
• 1:23:59
  compared to like the Philippines,
• 1:24:00
  are they similar or are they
• 1:24:01
  different or how does that work?
• 1:24:04
  Well, in terms of drifting
• 1:24:05
  facts, they are quite similar.
• 1:24:08
  Sometimes we can say that they can vary
• 1:24:12
  in the depth, the
• 1:24:15
  reach, in the raft they use.
• 1:24:18
  Usually typically it's bamboo, but in
• 1:24:21
  some countries they use other materials
• 1:24:23
  or just percent corks, asportation.
• 1:24:28
  But for instance,
• 1:24:29
  then we have anchor fat.
• 1:24:32
  Those anchor fats are used by some
• 1:24:35
  artisanal fleets mostly in the,
• 1:24:38
  especially in the Western
• 1:24:40
  Pacific and Indian Ocean.
• 1:24:42
  You can find thousands of them and then
• 1:24:44
  the structure is different.
• 1:24:46
  They have been made of bamboo initially,
• 1:24:49
  but they are using more plastic now.
• 1:24:53
  Okay.
• 1:24:53
  Okay.
• 1:24:54
  Are these FADs, are they retrieved after
• 1:24:57
  they're used or do they
• 1:24:58
  just leave them out there?
• 1:25:01
  When they set, when they conduct a
• 1:25:04
  fishing set on the FAD,
• 1:25:07
  they usually retrieve it.
• 1:25:09
  If the FAD is drifting towards outside
• 1:25:12
  the fishing zone or towards an area that
• 1:25:14
  is not productive or they think there is
• 1:25:17
  not going to be a
• 1:25:18
  irrigation anymore, they retrieve it.
• 1:25:21
  The issue is that some FADs end up lost
• 1:25:24
  or abandoned because they
• 1:25:28
  drift outside the fishing zone.
• 1:25:30
  I mean, the time from the deployment to
• 1:25:37
  the visit, there is there like two weeks
• 1:25:40
  or one month and in this month FADs can
• 1:25:45
  drift outside or can happen.
• 1:25:47
  Right. You just never know. It's the
• 1:25:48
  ocean. You never know sometimes, right?
• 1:25:50
  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:25:51
  Are there like GPS units attached to them
• 1:25:53
  or satellite GPS units
• 1:25:55
  that they can return?
• 1:25:56
  It's a buoy.
• 1:25:57
  Yeah.
• 1:25:58
  With satellite connection. I keep it with
• 1:26:00
  equipment and eco-sonder, which provides
• 1:26:04
  a rough estimation of biomass.
• 1:26:06
  But not all of them. That's got to be
• 1:26:08
  expensive to put together
• 1:26:09
  each of these FADs to have.
• 1:26:12
  Can some tuna fleets afford them and
• 1:26:14
  others not or like how does that work?
• 1:26:18
  Nowadays, almost every FAD has a buoy
• 1:26:21
  with an eco-sonder. It's more expensive,
• 1:26:25
  but it's more expensive to travel, for
• 1:26:28
  instance, for these to a FAD, the Feast
• 1:26:31
  of Regaining Divace, consuming fuel and
• 1:26:34
  time and to find out
• 1:26:37
  there is nothing there.
• 1:26:38
  Right. Yeah.
• 1:26:40
  So the eco-sonder, in fact, it has been a
• 1:26:44
  really good, I mean, it has been an
• 1:26:48
  incredible improvement in the way FADs
• 1:26:51
  are fished because now fishers can plan
• 1:26:54
  their strategy before going at
• 1:26:56
  sea, just looking at biomass.
• 1:26:59
  Yes. Yeah. Interesting. So from a
• 1:27:01
  fisheries perspective, like if I'm a
• 1:27:02
  fisher, I want these fish aggregation
• 1:27:04
  devices. Like these are good for me
• 1:27:07
  because they attract the fish, then I
• 1:27:09
  know that they're going to be there,
• 1:27:10
  especially now with the data that I have,
• 1:27:12
  there's more likely a chance that they're
• 1:27:14
  going to be there. I can go out there
• 1:27:15
  when there's stuff out there.
• 1:27:17
  Right.
• 1:27:17
  But from a fisheries management
• 1:27:20
  perspective, like from the ecology side
• 1:27:22
  or from the conservation side, are FADs a
• 1:27:29
  good thing or are they not a good thing?
• 1:27:31
  Like how do we approach it, even from the
• 1:27:33
  ISSF, like you guys are there for
• 1:27:34
  sustainability. Is using a FAD part of
• 1:27:39
  sustainability, like is it considered
• 1:27:40
  sustainable to use that?
• 1:27:42
  Like are we taking out, like we're
• 1:27:43
  getting more efficient by taking the
• 1:27:45
  fish, but is that a good thing or a bad
• 1:27:48
  thing? Like from a
• 1:27:50
  conservation perspective?
• 1:27:52
  Well, the first thing is that any fishing
• 1:27:56
  gear comes with an impact. So we want, we
• 1:27:59
  want to fish, we need to accept a level
• 1:28:02
  of impact or assume
• 1:28:04
  there's going to be an impact.
• 1:28:06
  In fact, for sure FADs are, some people
• 1:28:12
  thinks are bad. And I have listened to
• 1:28:16
  many people saying FADs are bad. If we
• 1:28:19
  look at, if we build our opinion based on
• 1:28:23
  science and we look at data, then we can
• 1:28:26
  say that FADs are not bad.
• 1:28:29
  And that I think, of course there are
• 1:28:34
  things to improve, but FADs can be, and
• 1:28:38
  this is entirely possible. I mean, we
• 1:28:40
  can, we have a look 10 years ago, there
• 1:28:44
  was a little change 20 years ago, there
• 1:28:48
  was nothing on the FADs management and
• 1:28:51
  now we have improved a lot.
• 1:28:53
  So if you have a look to data, I would
• 1:28:57
  say FADs are not bad, but of course there
• 1:28:59
  is an impact of using FADs.
• 1:29:01
  Right, right. When you work with the
• 1:29:04
  fishing fleet on FADs and the research
• 1:29:07
  around FADs and making sure that it's
• 1:29:09
  sustainable, it's properly done. What's,
• 1:29:13
  what's, are they, you know, jumping in
• 1:29:15
  with you and being, okay, let's make sure
• 1:29:16
  this is done as, you know, we want to
• 1:29:18
  look at the compromise, but we also want
• 1:29:20
  to make sure we're
• 1:29:20
  catching the right amount of fish.
• 1:29:21
  But we also don't want to have too much
• 1:29:25
  of an impact. Like you said, there's
• 1:29:26
  always an impact, but we don't want to
• 1:29:27
  have too much of an impact. What, when
• 1:29:29
  you work with those, like I know ISSF
• 1:29:31
  have like a really good
• 1:29:32
  relationship with the fishing fleet.
• 1:29:33
  So how do you approach that saying like,
• 1:29:36
  yeah, yeah, we want to just see, you
• 1:29:38
  know, how these FADs work and, you know,
• 1:29:40
  are they, are they good for, for the
• 1:29:42
  conservation of fish or, or not good for
• 1:29:44
  the conservation of fish? How do they react to that?
• 1:29:45
  No, it's, I mean, we always work with
• 1:29:52
  pieces from the first step of our
• 1:29:54
  research. So it's not that I go with a
• 1:29:57
  new FAD design and say, you have to try
• 1:30:00
  this. No, no, our approach in ISSF is
• 1:30:03
  that we try to find a solution with them.
• 1:30:05
  So for instance, it was a huge challenge
• 1:30:11
  to move towards non-entangling FADs,
• 1:30:15
  which are FADs that don't have any
• 1:30:17
  netting in their construction. So because
• 1:30:20
  the conventional FADs or traditional FADs
• 1:30:24
  used before, they had fishing nets.
• 1:30:25
  And this is, this was creating cost
• 1:30:29
  fishing because marion found I wasn't
• 1:30:33
  tangling in FAD structures. So we had
• 1:30:36
  this challenge of moving towards FADs
• 1:30:39
  without netting. And we work with fishers
• 1:30:43
  from the beginning. We choose some
• 1:30:46
  fishers that we know and
• 1:30:48
  that we trust and they trust us.
• 1:30:49
  So we've been building for years a
• 1:30:53
  relationship, which is really important.
• 1:30:56
  And then also we know who to ask because
• 1:30:58
  you know fishers are like scientists,
• 1:31:02
  they have an expertise. I mean, if you go
• 1:31:04
  to a doctor because you have a headache,
• 1:31:07
  you go to a specialist. So with fishers
• 1:31:09
  is the same. You go to someone that is a
• 1:31:12
  specialist in what you want.
• 1:31:13
  And so we have very clear the people we
• 1:31:18
  bought, which is really, we have a method
• 1:31:21
  for that. And from then we start finding
• 1:31:26
  the solution with them. And that's the
• 1:31:29
  way we work. But the challenge here is
• 1:31:34
  that we are working in a worldwide.
• 1:31:37
  I mean, it's the global reach is the
• 1:31:41
  challenge. So for that we've been
• 1:31:43
  working, doing the skippers works
• 1:31:46
  everywhere, showing what other fishes are
• 1:31:49
  doing and it works. And then making
• 1:31:55
  trials with them and all this.
• 1:31:57
  Well, I mean, I feel as though, you know,
• 1:32:01
  fishers and scientists are very similar,
• 1:32:03
  you know, they experiment, right? You
• 1:32:05
  know, and that's and that's how they do
• 1:32:06
  it because they have to figure out ways.
• 1:32:09
  You're, you know, fishers are working out
• 1:32:11
  on an ocean that can be very calm at
• 1:32:13
  times. But most of the time, it's not as
• 1:32:15
  calm and it's a little chaotic. And there
• 1:32:17
  are times you have to I have a feeling a
• 1:32:19
  lot of the the fish aggregation devices
• 1:32:22
  have developed the way they develop in
• 1:32:25
  certain parts of the world
• 1:32:26
  because of the environment.
• 1:32:27
  That's are surrounded by they have to be
• 1:32:29
  durable. They have to, you know, make
• 1:32:31
  sure that they're still there when they
• 1:32:32
  go out and get them in certain areas like
• 1:32:35
  in the Pacific is it can be very rough.
• 1:32:37
  You know, any any ocean could be
• 1:32:39
  extremely rough and and you have to make
• 1:32:41
  sure that that it works there.
• 1:32:42
  And so I'm sure a lot of the fads have
• 1:32:45
  been rigged that way so that they want
• 1:32:48
  they're just there when you get them. And
• 1:32:50
  and so it's kind of interesting to see
• 1:32:52
  that the different stages of f a d's and
• 1:32:55
  I'm sure they've gotten a lot better, not
• 1:32:57
  only from a conservation standpoint, but
• 1:32:58
  from an efficiency standpoint, as we
• 1:33:00
  talked about with the data and having the
• 1:33:02
  the the the machinery and the data that
• 1:33:06
  you can get from there.
• 1:33:07
  And so I think that's that's really
• 1:33:09
  interesting. Obviously, from a scientific
• 1:33:10
  point of view, as you and I know, both
• 1:33:11
  being scientists, it's it's all
• 1:33:13
  experimentation, right? This is how we
• 1:33:15
  work with things and sometimes it works
• 1:33:17
  out in our favor and sometimes it doesn't
• 1:33:18
  work out in our favor.
• 1:33:20
  But let's you know, when we let's talk
• 1:33:23
  about some of the research that you've
• 1:33:25
  done specifically on can you can you talk
• 1:33:28
  about one of the the projects that you've
• 1:33:31
  worked on recently that we could talk
• 1:33:33
  about in terms of looking at fads and how
• 1:33:36
  it impacts the environment.
• 1:33:39
  Yeah.
• 1:33:40
  I think working mainly lastly in three
• 1:33:45
  topics. One is biodegradable
• 1:33:48
  fat, you can choose one of them.
• 1:33:50
  One is the move towards biodegradable
• 1:33:57
  fat, and this is because those files are
• 1:33:59
  then that lost or abandoned, they can
• 1:34:01
  cause damage on coral
• 1:34:02
  reefs or benthic ecosystems.
• 1:34:05
  So we are we design that is made of
• 1:34:11
  organic materials. And I've been also
• 1:34:16
  working with acoustic discrimination of
• 1:34:20
  tropical species. And this has been this
• 1:34:24
  is still we are working on it.
• 1:34:26
  And this is a huge effort we've done so
• 1:34:31
  that users can have a better estimate of
• 1:34:35
  what they have in the water before they
• 1:34:38
  set the fishing net. So this
• 1:34:40
  is to face more selectively.
• 1:34:44
  So you're talking about actually
• 1:34:45
  detecting the species based on the sound
• 1:34:49
  of the fish like the acoustics of the
• 1:34:51
  fish. So this is like what we do a lot
• 1:34:52
  with marine mammals but marine mammals
• 1:34:54
  emit a noise, you know, they you can hear
• 1:34:57
  their calls in a lot of times you can
• 1:34:58
  tell which whale or whatever is there.
• 1:35:03
  Now you're talking about being able to
• 1:35:05
  distinguish between the different
• 1:35:06
  species. How, how is that? How's that?
• 1:35:10
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, it can happen. And it's
• 1:35:14
  we use a chain of different what in a
• 1:35:19
  fish aggregating devices, we have three
• 1:35:22
  main species tropical tuna species and
• 1:35:25
  that those are skipjack
• 1:35:27
  yellow thing and big guy.
• 1:35:29
  And we are using a difference in their
• 1:35:33
  morphology because the skipjack, they
• 1:35:37
  don't have swim bladder.
• 1:35:39
  Oh, okay.
• 1:35:41
  I don't think I, yeah, and big guy tuna
• 1:35:43
  and yellow thing tuna, they do have the
• 1:35:46
  swim bladder and the swim bladder is a
• 1:35:48
  balloon that feels up inside and it's
• 1:35:51
  filled with air. And this balloon of the
• 1:35:56
  swim bladder is what the
• 1:35:58
  sounds reflect very strongly.
• 1:36:00
  So when you use a given frequency, if you
• 1:36:05
  touch a piece with swim bladder, the
• 1:36:09
  echo, the backscatter of this echo is
• 1:36:12
  going to be a lot more stronger than
• 1:36:15
  those that don't have swim bladder. So at
• 1:36:18
  fish aggregating devices, if we
• 1:36:21
  encounter, for instance, skipjack and big
• 1:36:24
  guy, yeah, we know that
• 1:36:27
  the the frequency response,
• 1:36:29
  of the two species is going to be
• 1:36:32
  different. And this is how we work with
• 1:36:36
  the co6. That is so cool. That's so cool.
• 1:36:40
  Now between the sorry, which were the
• 1:36:42
  ones with the swim bladders, this big guy
• 1:36:45
  in the skipjack? Yes,
• 1:36:47
  they do have swim bladder.
• 1:36:48
  So can you detect between those two
• 1:36:50
  species based on do they, they reflect
• 1:36:53
  back different like backscatter just be
• 1:36:57
  based on their morphology?
• 1:36:59
  It's more difficult. Okay. Yeah. So it's
• 1:37:01
  a little bit. Yeah, it's not a little
• 1:37:04
  bit, right? Yeah, it's more difficult.
• 1:37:06
  But what we found out is that the, the
• 1:37:09
  yellow thing, their
• 1:37:12
  frequency response is flat.
• 1:37:16
  So for instance, if you use low frequency
• 1:37:20
  and a high frequency, the behavior of the
• 1:37:23
  response is going to be quite flat. But
• 1:37:25
  if you use with a big guy, a low
• 1:37:29
  frequency and a high frequency, you will
• 1:37:31
  have a stronger response in low
• 1:37:34
  frequency. So what you need to
• 1:37:38
  discriminate the species is use at the
• 1:37:41
  same time, a low and a high frequency.
• 1:37:44
  And this is what we are working with with
• 1:37:46
  buoy manufacturers and IKEA-SON, the
• 1:37:49
  buoys manufacturers to see if they can
• 1:37:52
  introduce this knowledge in the buoys.
• 1:37:57
  Yeah, that'd be amazing. Yeah, that'd be
• 1:37:59
  phenomenal. Now, let's talk about from an
• 1:38:01
  application standpoint. Obviously, the
• 1:38:03
  science is cool on this.
• 1:38:04
  Like it's I'm geeking out just listening
• 1:38:06
  to this. Like this is a lot of fun. When,
• 1:38:09
  but when we talk about the application
• 1:38:10
  for fishers, right? So you have this,
• 1:38:13
  this instrument, the acoustic instrument
• 1:38:16
  on the buoy, and then it is able to
• 1:38:18
  detect what's there and then bring it
• 1:38:20
  back to land or to the
• 1:38:22
  ship of this close by.
• 1:38:24
  From an application standpoint, are there
• 1:38:27
  certain times of the year where you can
• 1:38:29
  catch certain types of species? Is that
• 1:38:31
  like, are they seasonal and they can only
• 1:38:33
  catch like say big eye or yellow fin or
• 1:38:36
  skipjack at certain times of the year?
• 1:38:37
  In general, they share the three species or two species are present simultaneously. Okay, of course, you can have different species composition and this can vary depending on the presence, the local presence of the different species. But in general, you can find two or three species at the same time. So the challenge is the challenge to
• 1:39:07
  fish, for instance, only the species that
• 1:39:10
  it's in healthy condition, let's say this
• 1:39:15
  is can be done through acoustics because
• 1:39:19
  otherwise, they fishers will encircle
• 1:39:22
  always the three species. So the idea
• 1:39:27
  behind using this acoustic is that
• 1:39:31
  fishers they have on the bridge screen
• 1:39:37
  with all the fat they have at sea. So if
• 1:39:41
  they have a percentage of the species
• 1:39:44
  present at each fat, they can decide to
• 1:39:47
  avoid areas with a lot of big eye if big
• 1:39:50
  eye needs to be protected in that ocean
• 1:39:52
  or yellow fin if yellow fin needs to be
• 1:39:56
  protected in that ocean. So the idea is
• 1:39:58
  that they can be more efficient and more efficient.
• 1:40:00
  Yeah, so it's not just a guess where you
• 1:40:05
  just throw the net in, because you know
• 1:40:07
  that there's fish there. And then you
• 1:40:09
  just bring it up and then whatever you
• 1:40:10
  catch you catch if there's certain
• 1:40:11
  species that may not be doing well that
• 1:40:13
  year that season, then they can, they can
• 1:40:15
  just be like, okay, well, we're going to
• 1:40:16
  go where there's, you know, species that
• 1:40:18
  are doing better. And we're going to
• 1:40:19
  leave that for a little bit because we've
• 1:40:21
  been asked to leave that for a little
• 1:40:22
  bit. But we still are able to retain the
• 1:40:24
  same around a yield of a different type
• 1:40:26
  of species, knowing that it's just it'll be more sustainable. So they can, they can make a lot of different species.
• 1:40:28
  It'll be more sustainable. So they can,
• 1:40:29
  they can make in the field decisions that
• 1:40:32
  are more sustainable, just right off the
• 1:40:34
  bat, just by having better data and
• 1:40:36
  science around that. That is awesome.
• 1:40:40
  That is so cool. Yeah, if you think about
• 1:40:42
  it, because I mean, it's not there's no
• 1:40:44
  guesswork anymore. And it's not as if,
• 1:40:46
  well, we just put the net in, we didn't
• 1:40:47
  know what was in there. We just knew that
• 1:40:48
  there were fish there. We knew it was
• 1:40:50
  tuna, but we didn't know which species it
• 1:40:51
  was. What a find that is so cool.
• 1:40:56
  So is this being like, so this is where
• 1:40:58
  are we in terms of like the deployment of
• 1:41:01
  this? Now we're just trying to figure out
• 1:41:02
  if we can put it on the buoys and how to
• 1:41:03
  fasten on the buoys.
• 1:41:05
  Well, some of the manufacturers are
• 1:41:07
  already working with two frequencies. But
• 1:41:12
  here there are there are many
• 1:41:13
  improvements to introduce because you can
• 1:41:15
  improve your hardware, for instance,
• 1:41:18
  having a dual beam transducer. So.
• 1:41:22
  When the the eco comes, you know where it
• 1:41:25
  comes from in the beam. So there are some
• 1:41:28
  hardware improvements. And then there is
• 1:41:31
  the improvement of the how to translate
• 1:41:35
  the decibels or so the
• 1:41:37
  electric signal into biomass.
• 1:41:40
  So we are working in these two things
• 1:41:44
  together with manufacturers. And in fact,
• 1:41:46
  we are now in in like three projects with
• 1:41:50
  manufacturers, the three manufacturers
• 1:41:53
  existing nowadays to improve their
• 1:41:55
  hardware and
• 1:41:57
  interpretation of the signals.
• 1:41:59
  Yes.
• 1:42:00
  Unreal. Unreal. Even to think about this,
• 1:42:05
  like from a conservation standpoint, this
• 1:42:06
  is huge. I mean, tuna are in trouble. We
• 1:42:08
  know that like with, you know, with it
• 1:42:10
  with the amount of fishing that's been
• 1:42:12
  done in the past and just not being able
• 1:42:14
  to distinguish which fish are down there.
• 1:42:16
  And and a lot of the times we blame
• 1:42:19
  fishers and we blame the industry and in
• 1:42:21
  a certain degree, it can be. But if they
• 1:42:23
  don't know what species are underwater,
• 1:42:24
  which is very difficult to tell, then
• 1:42:27
  it's difficult to manage that. Now we're
• 1:42:30
  at the, you know, we're on the precipice
• 1:42:31
  of being able to deploy these, you know,
• 1:42:34
  on buoy systems on these on these fads
• 1:42:36
  and just being like, okay, we've actually
• 1:42:38
  been able to protect certain species at
• 1:42:40
  certain times of the year.
• 1:42:40
  It's certain, you know, when they're when
• 1:42:42
  they're maybe a little bit lower, and
• 1:42:43
  then we can focus in on other species.
• 1:42:45
  And that just brings fisheries management
• 1:42:47
  to a different level. But it also brings
• 1:42:50
  fishing to a different level. They don't
• 1:42:51
  have to just be indiscriminate. They
• 1:42:53
  could discriminate on the types of
• 1:42:54
  species that they can they can capture.
• 1:42:56
  That's awesome. That's phenomenal. What a
• 1:42:59
  win. What a great win. How does that when
• 1:43:01
  you see that, like, how did that whole
• 1:43:03
  idea come together? Like, was that a
• 1:43:05
  number of you at ISSF? Was that somebody, like one of your partners, one of your partners, one of your partners?
• 1:43:08
  Somebody like one of your partners
• 1:43:10
  working on that? Where did the idea come
• 1:43:12
  from? Well, the idea came from an old
• 1:43:15
  project when I was doing my PhD. Yeah,
• 1:43:18
  because I was using to study tuna
• 1:43:22
  behavior. I was using eco Saunders with
• 1:43:27
  IRD. It's a Francistitute. Okay. And we
• 1:43:31
  were using different frequencies and some
• 1:43:34
  French acousticians
• 1:43:35
  already were working on the idea.
• 1:43:37
  Working on the idea of this
• 1:43:39
  discrimination. Yeah, from an IRD. And so
• 1:43:43
  I continue after my PhD on this line. It
• 1:43:47
  was really it has been a lot of work
• 1:43:49
  because we knew nothing about the
• 1:43:54
  acoustic signal of tropical tuners. So we
• 1:43:56
  started from almost nothing. So we had to
• 1:44:00
  spend a long time at sea
• 1:44:02
  and taking sampling, having
• 1:44:06
  data and working a lot. And especially
• 1:44:11
  this last year's we've been working with
• 1:44:13
  ASTI, which is the Spanish Institute of
• 1:44:16
  Research. Yeah. And the acousticians
• 1:44:19
  there are working on this with ISSF. That
• 1:44:25
  is phenomenal. That is so cool. And
• 1:44:28
  Andrew, you know, it's not just fishing
• 1:44:31
  selectively, but scientists, we are very
• 1:44:34
  interested in having
• 1:44:35
  this data for research because imagine if
• 1:44:39
  you have all the data from the fat and
• 1:44:43
  the numbers of species and individuals
• 1:44:46
  behind the fat, you can understand many
• 1:44:50
  different things about these are
• 1:44:52
  beginning devices and even define new
• 1:44:54
  measures. Well, it's not just but you
• 1:44:58
  just learn more about the ocean in
• 1:44:59
  general, you have all these like these
• 1:45:01
  fads deployed around the world. I know what they're for, you know, the
• 1:45:03
  for to extract fish. But it's also as you
• 1:45:08
  put more and more data systems on there.
• 1:45:10
  You have this network of of data
• 1:45:13
  acquisition from an oceanography
• 1:45:15
  standpoint, that's, that's amazing price,
• 1:45:17
  especially in like areas where it's, I
• 1:45:19
  assume that a lot of these are in the
• 1:45:21
  high seas. And you're just like, we don't
• 1:45:23
  know much about the high seas to have
• 1:45:25
  this data acquisition there and to and to
• 1:45:27
  have that relationship with fissures.
• 1:45:28
  That's what it really comes down to to
• 1:45:29
  say, hey, like, can we actually access some of that data so we can access that data? And so, yeah, I think that's the way it is.
• 1:45:31
  And I think that really goes towards
• 1:45:36
  building that relationship with the
• 1:45:39
  fishing fleet, because that could have
• 1:45:40
  just been proprietary information. Now
• 1:45:42
  they're sharing it, you can make these
• 1:45:44
  assumptions and hypotheses and test them
• 1:45:47
  and experiment with them and just be
• 1:45:49
  like, okay, like now we can figure out
• 1:45:51
  that there's different frequencies for
• 1:45:53
  swim bladders and some fish don't have
• 1:45:55
  them so that we can be able to tell
• 1:45:56
  between species and make it better for
• 1:45:58
  conservation purposes, which is a win-win for every species.
• 1:46:00
  Which is a win-win for everybody in, you
• 1:46:02
  know, from the fishing fleet to the
• 1:46:03
  scientists to to the world. I mean, I
• 1:46:05
  think that's, that's, that's really
• 1:46:07
  great. I love that. I'm so glad you told
• 1:46:09
  me about that project.
• 1:46:11
  I think that's great.
• 1:46:12
  Question I should ask about that though
• 1:46:13
  is, is that when you work with different
• 1:46:16
  fleets around the world, are, are they
• 1:46:18
  all trying to like, are they all trying
• 1:46:21
  to like, be more conservation friendly?
• 1:46:24
  Like, do they want to be more
• 1:46:25
  conservation friendly? Do they want to
• 1:46:26
  work with this type of data that you have
• 1:46:29
  and, and try and experiment? Are they
• 1:46:31
  open to that type of thing?
• 1:46:34
  There is diversity on that. Some, some
• 1:46:39
  fleets are really proactive. Yeah. And
• 1:46:42
  they like and they want and they, and
• 1:46:46
  also the, the, I mean, the ship owner,
• 1:46:50
  for instance, a big company, if the ship
• 1:46:51
  owners have a policy to be sustainable,
• 1:46:55
  this is great and it's easy.
• 1:46:57
  But then you have other fleets that they
• 1:47:03
  don't believe they need to improve.
• 1:47:06
  That's happening. Yeah. Yeah, of course.
• 1:47:08
  So, yeah. So I think it takes time, but
• 1:47:12
  it's improving. So it's a
• 1:47:15
  matter of sharing with them.
• 1:47:17
  You see, this is a biodegradable fat and
• 1:47:20
  it works as well as the conventional fat
• 1:47:24
  and this fleet is using another plate is
• 1:47:27
  using it and it works. Yeah. So it takes
• 1:47:30
  more time with those fleet. But the good
• 1:47:32
  thing is that the police that are doing
• 1:47:36
  well and are making a big effort to
• 1:47:40
  improve sustainability with
• 1:47:42
  fat, they push the others.
• 1:47:45
  They push, they are pushing the others
• 1:47:48
  because nobody wants to fall behind.
• 1:47:51
  Right. True. And so when features see at
• 1:47:54
  sea, Oh, look, they are using this. We
• 1:47:57
  should move. Then they ask and start
• 1:48:00
  contacting us. Sometimes it's, it's,
• 1:48:04
  it's, it sometimes takes longer. It
• 1:48:06
  depends on the fleet.
• 1:48:07
  Right. But then again, it goes towards
• 1:48:09
  building the relationship with other
• 1:48:10
  fleets and then those fleets are in
• 1:48:11
  discussion with, with each other as well.
• 1:48:14
  And that, you know, putting them out of
• 1:48:15
  pressure, being like, Hey,
• 1:48:16
  this actually works out well.
• 1:48:17
  And having that almost like reference or
• 1:48:19
  referral from, from one other fleet to
• 1:48:22
  say, no, like the ISF is really great.
• 1:48:24
  They, they work really well and they're
• 1:48:25
  here for us as well as conservation. So I
• 1:48:27
  think that, that bodes well.
• 1:48:30
  Yeah. Now, one of the things, you know,
• 1:48:31
  ISSF and the work that you're doing are
• 1:48:33
  sometimes like, as we just talked about
• 1:48:35
  is on the cusp of, you know, you know,
• 1:48:38
  new technology and innovation.
• 1:48:40
  And obviously, you know, you share that
• 1:48:42
  with the fleets and you share that with,
• 1:48:43
  with the fleets all over the world. But
• 1:48:46
  as a, as a scientist, you, you want to be
• 1:48:48
  able to share that within the scientific
• 1:48:50
  community is especially
• 1:48:52
  with early career scientists.
• 1:48:54
  And so, you know, you never teach
• 1:48:55
  students as well and share this with
• 1:48:57
  students like this type of work and, and,
• 1:49:00
  and, uh, and get them like excited about
• 1:49:03
  the new technology that's out.
• 1:49:04
  Yeah, sure. I mean, not now because I'm
• 1:49:08
  now focused on research, but before I
• 1:49:10
  was, I was teaching, sometimes I gave,
• 1:49:14
  um, masters and things like this. Yeah.
• 1:49:18
  And working with young people.
• 1:49:21
  Nice. Nice. And how do you, how do you
• 1:49:23
  find like when they, so you were actually
• 1:49:24
  like, like, um, like on a committees for
• 1:49:27
  graduate students. So if they did, I
• 1:49:29
  don't know how it's done in the, in, in
• 1:49:30
  Europe when they, when you do your
• 1:49:31
  graduate work, but do you defend your
• 1:49:33
  thesis at the end? Is that, yeah.
• 1:49:36
  So you have a committee and so you're on
• 1:49:37
  the committees. That's awesome. And so
• 1:49:39
  are you still in, like, does the ISSF
• 1:49:41
  still have
• 1:49:42
  relationships with the universities?
• 1:49:44
  Sure, sure. And yeah, we are always
• 1:49:48
  envying in juries many times and we
• 1:49:52
  continue writing. I mean, science is our,
• 1:49:56
  I mean, I, many times I have a invitation
• 1:50:02
  to be jury or to be the
• 1:50:05
  mentor for a work for students.
• 1:50:09
  Yeah. Yeah. We are probably, we are
• 1:50:12
  sharing, we share an important part of
• 1:50:15
  our work is not just research, but
• 1:50:18
  communication with scientists writing
• 1:50:21
  papers, attending conferences, giving
• 1:50:26
  conferences. And so we try to
• 1:50:30
  do a little bit of everything.
• 1:50:32
  Yeah. Which is hard.
• 1:50:34
  It takes a lot of time.
• 1:50:35
  Yeah. For instance, now, uh, next month
• 1:50:40
  I'm visiting China and I will be see when
• 1:50:45
  I have a workshop on biodegradable fats
• 1:50:48
  together with the Pacific community,
• 1:50:51
  which is the science
• 1:50:52
  provider for the WCPFC.
• 1:50:55
  Okay. And we have a, and that trip we are
• 1:51:01
  going to do everything. I mean, we are
• 1:51:03
  going to do a workshop with fishers with
• 1:51:08
  manufacturers to teach them how to do a
• 1:51:11
  bio degradable fat, what tuna reformation
• 1:51:15
  requiring the need for fleets, what is
• 1:51:20
  working, what
• 1:51:21
  everything with these companies.
• 1:51:25
  And we are going to look for organic
• 1:51:27
  materials in China so that they can
• 1:51:29
  supply the fleets in the Western Pacific.
• 1:51:32
  And then we are visiting the university
• 1:51:34
  in Shanghai for lecture. So it's like, we
• 1:51:39
  have everything there.
• 1:51:42
  Yeah. And so, and I think that's amazing
• 1:51:42
  to be able to provide that almost all
• 1:51:45
  services and to be able to share that
• 1:51:47
  information across different, you know,
• 1:51:49
  scientists, the public and so forth. I
• 1:51:52
  think that's really great. And for you to
• 1:51:54
  come on here and spend your time, you
• 1:51:56
  know, busy time with us and be able to
• 1:51:59
  share the research that you have with us
• 1:52:01
  and the work that you do is really
• 1:52:03
  amazing. So, I just want to thank you so
• 1:52:05
  much for coming on the How to Protect the
• 1:52:07
  Ocean podcast. It's been such a pleasure
• 1:52:08
  to have you on. Love to have you back on
• 1:52:10
  and talk more about the research that you're doing.
• 1:52:11
  Okay. Thank you for having me. Thank you,
• 1:52:18
  Galla, for joining us on today's episode
• 1:52:19
  of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
• 1:52:21
  It was great to have you. I love being
• 1:52:22
  able to have people on that are able to
• 1:52:24
  explain a lot of the things that we may
• 1:52:26
  or may not know that goes on in the
• 1:52:28
  fishing industry. This really is
• 1:52:30
  important to learning more about the
• 1:52:33
  ocean and being more aware of how things
• 1:52:35
  are caught and what is good and what is
• 1:52:38
  bad from a perception of from a consumer perspective.
• 1:52:40
  I want to know that when I go to a to go
• 1:52:45
  buy seafood, if I go buy like a tuna poke
• 1:52:48
  bowl, go to Hawaii in a few weeks and I
• 1:52:50
  want to make sure that, you know, I get
• 1:52:53
  the right poke bowl. I want to make sure
• 1:52:54
  that I'm catching something that's
• 1:52:56
  sustainably caught if it is sustainably
• 1:52:58
  caught. And that's the that's the
• 1:52:59
  decision that we have to make. But the
• 1:53:00
  only way we can make that decision is
• 1:53:02
  based on data and based on science. And
• 1:53:04
  that's what the International Seafood
• 1:53:05
  Sustainability Foundation does. It helps
• 1:53:07
  us understand more about what's happening in the ocean.
• 1:53:14
  And of course, you can subscribe and hit
• 1:53:16
  that notification bell if you're watching
• 1:53:17
  this on YouTube or if you
• 1:53:19
  prefer to watch this on YouTube.
• 1:53:21
  And of course, you can watch this on Spotify. You can listen to on Spotify and listen to it on Apple Podcast as well as your other favorite Apple Podcast or your favorite podcast apps. We're going to be talking about the ocean podcast, the ocean podcast, the ocean podcast, and the ocean podcast. So
• 1:53:50
  I want to thank you so much for joining
• 1:53:51
  me on today's episode of the how to
• 1:53:53
  protect the ocean podcast. Thank you as
• 1:53:54
  well. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. Thank
• 1:53:56
  you so much for joining us. Have a great
• 1:53:58
  day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.