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How to Protect Your Youth Ministry Students (Safety at Youth Group - Pt. 1) · Ministry Coach: Youth Ministry Tips & Resources

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: When it comes to our students, we can never be too careful.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Today we're going to talk about extra measures to protect your students and youth ministry.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Ministry Coach podcast, where we give you weekly tips and tactics to help you fast-track the growth and health of your youth ministry.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Jeff Lascola, and this is Kristen Lascola.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: And today's episode was an idea from a listener.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: It was in a YouTube comment.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: So we love those.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: If you have any episode ideas that you're like, why have they never talked about this?
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Bring it on.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: We've been doing this for six years.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: We we need ideas.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: I would love that.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: And today is a little bit more of a serious topic.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it has to do with how do we protect students, like in the sense of we've done a whole episode on security and how to keep students safe in the church.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: But what about safe within the church, um, from the people in the church?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, it's no secret that there are people out there with bad intentions when it comes to children.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: And as leaders, we're sort of like the gatekeeper of protecting students from everything.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: But today we're going to talk about people.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what if there's a person who is in the church and in the ministry that has bad intentions?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: How can we figure that out?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: What do we do with that?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully it's information we'll never need, but you never know.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's where we're at and it's what we do, and it's our job, like I said, to protect children.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a few different ways we can look at this.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: And the first one we're going to talk about is more like the due diligence aspect.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: So the due diligence aspect has a lot to do with wisdom and kind of creating like a character profile for the people that are interested in serving in your ministry.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: So obviously, your job specifically, like anybody at the church who gives you weird vibes, you know, that that is something you need to pay attention to.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: But today, the way I'm going to structure the message is going to be mostly on people who are serving with you in your ministry or interested in serving with you in your ministry because those are the people that have the most direct access to children.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, there could be some weird person who shows up in the parking lot and says something.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: That has actually happened.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't get out of the car, but he said some weird stuff to kids.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Where are at a youth group event?
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I thought he was a parent dropping off a kid.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Turns out he didn't even have a kid.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: He just rolled down the window and said some weird stuff to our kids.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh my goodness.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And they handled it perfectly.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: They came and got me right away.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: We got security right away.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Security asked that person to leave, watched the car, stood at the gate the rest of the night.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: We took down their license plate number, you know, so we did it.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, like, despite everything, there still is a weird situation that can happen.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: So today is talking more about like what can we do with the people in our ministry?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: So here's some questions to ask about a person that again, it's not going to tell us everything we need to know, but it starts to build like a character profile, character sketch for the person if you start to have gut feelings, if you start to have weird observations.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: So who does this person know that you know?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: Did this person just come out of out of nowhere and decide they wanted to start helping in youth ministry?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you have a context and relational ties that you know of this person to have?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: What do those people say about them?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: What is their reputation, their bigger reputation like?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Are they even involved in the church?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Some people like they start coming and then all of a sudden they want to serve in youth ministry or children's.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, I don't think so.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's a red flag.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: We have, and you and your church can decide this, but we say people need to be attending, I think for like six months before they start serving anywhere.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's even longer to serve with children or students.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: That just starts to give you an idea of who this person is, what they're like, and working with them a little bit in any volunteer capacity, even if it's just coffee, not just.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry to the coffee people, even if it's coffee or uh hospitality or something like that, you start to get an idea of what they're like.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Here's a question that sometimes comes into play later on.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Did they ask you to serve or did you ask them to serve?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it's not like, well, every single person that asks me is sketchy.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, no, it's just another piece of information that may or may not be useful later.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, are they connected to the community at church based on their stage and station in life?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, for instance, is this person like has no peers that are friends, no community?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: They consider the children their community.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: They consider the youth their community.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: They're not connected to anybody, their own age or station in life.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: They're not interested in peers, they're only interested in children and students.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: That tells us something.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's a part of the character sketch that we're trying to come up with when and if we need to go there.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: And what is their motivation for serving?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, God is the only one who knows the intents of the heart, but you can look for signs and you can look for like why does this person why were they initially motivated to contact me to serve here?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Did what did they say it was?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: What do you observe it might be based on like were they even interested in getting to know the other leaders?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Were they, you know, looking for community?
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: Were they just there's there's just a bunch of stuff.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna go through every little scenario, but just put all this stuff into your file folder, a mental file folder of just who this person is.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: And again, these aren't like hard and fast indicators of anything necessarily, but they help us create a picture of the people who come into our ministries, and that's okay.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: So when it comes to the due diligence aspect too, let's talk a little bit about logistics.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, say somebody wants to serve in your ministry, and I think there's a long ago episode buried in YouTube somewhere where we did talk about this.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: But number one, we would do a red flag check.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, what that would be is if you wanted to serve Jeff, I would send out an email to all of the staff at my church and say Jeff Lascola wants to serve with junior high ministry.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then they usually ask a few questions.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Would you be comfortable with this person serving with your own children?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Are you comfortable with this person serving uh with minors?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: What is your experience like with this person, if any, that we should know about?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And if you are a small church, that red flag check should be very simple.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: You could throw it out at a staff meeting and say, Hey, do you guys know Jeff Laskell?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: He wants to help serve at junior high.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Anything you know that I don't that I should be aware of.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason we do that, our church is larger and people will burn bridges somewhere within our church and then just say, Well, let me go to this campus instead with this ministry and this pastor.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Surely they don't know about what happened over here, like three towns over.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we do.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so it doesn't mean it's an absolute make or break.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: It depends on what the situation is and what that person who served with them has to say, but their reputation will follow them.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: So the red flag check is number one.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's actually even followed people within our same town, just because of um relationships we've had with other pastors at other churches.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: I remember one individual in particular, I don't think he ever ended up doing anything sketchy, but just had a very strange vibe about him and kind of like you're saying, burned some bridges and went from one church and then tried to serve at our church, and those kind of red flags followed him.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think he went on to try and go to another church, and it's kind of like the information sort of passed along, just as like a hey, this is just our experience.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Something could to consider.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, not and then they make the call and they do their own homework and all of that.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it's unique because in our town, we're like kind of a small town, and so the pastors, yeah, like talk to each other.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great idea, too.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where have you previously attended church?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: Where have you served?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that'll come up for us on their application, which I'll talk about in a second.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: But then after that, they do a four-week visit.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so I always say to them, Hey, why don't you come check out the ministry for four weeks and see if it is what you think it is and if you think it's a fit for you?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like a two-way observation, you know, I'm watching them to see who they are, how they fit in our ministry, how they fit with our team, what's their vibe.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then they're also looking at us like, do I really want to do this?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: And they just observe, they're not leading anything, doing anything.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: They kind of stick with me.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: I might have them pop around and like observe another small group leader leading just so they can see what a small group is like if they really want to get into that, because some of them are crazy.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and yeah, it's a it's a way to like not have it be so abrupt, like, hi, I'd like to serve.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, um, you're serving, like, I don't know anything about you.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know your small group, good luck.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just sort of like, let's kind of try it on in itself has eliminated some people either way.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it has.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Not often, because honestly, to tell you the truth, most of the people who serve in my ministry, I already know them.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Very rarely has it been an absolute cold call.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And when it is a cold call, that's when I need to use this stuff.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I've had to, and I've asked people to leave based on it.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it's usually this stuff we're talking about today.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: The further the relational distances between you and the person coming in, I don't know.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: For me, in my experience, that's where the chances of this isn't quite right go up.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but a lot of my leaders are former students or former friends of students or parents of students or my friends, or you know, and they're just people I've known forever that have a really deep root system in our church.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: So not that I don't need this still, but it's just it's shown itself to be different than just the random person.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, hi, I'd like to serve.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, who are you?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: What's going on?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and then they do an application, and in the application, we ask for two references and they're non-family references.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Here's a red flag, someone who doesn't have any.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: I've had that happen where they're like putting down just a couple family members.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh, I'm sorry, I need non-related references.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I don't have anyone.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, well, why is that?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one guy, he's like, Well, I just moved here.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, yeah, but where'd you come from?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: I could also call those people, or don't you have a job?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: I could call that person, you know, and so that felt a little fishy to me.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: And they ended up not working out.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: They just, I think, kind of saw the writing on the wall and didn't continue.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then they need to talk to you about like their previous ministry experience and the previous church they've attended, you know, for the reasons that you're talking about.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: So if they've been serving in student ministry at a church in a neighboring city for three years, that would be good information to know.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, why aren't you there anymore?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: Or okay, what is this pastor's experience with you like?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Even if it's good stuff, like, oh yeah, well, they moved and whatever, or oh, we were just, you know, all of our friends started going to this other church, so we decide to go with our friends.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: There could be perfectly reasonable explanations for that, but you need to do your homework and you need to figure it out.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the application process, and then they get live scanned.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: So live scanned, I'm sure you all know what that is.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the digital fingerprint system, and that goes like we have a third-party like security check that checks to see if anybody is listed on any lists they shouldn't be on, kind of thing.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: So uh we check that.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: So here's the truth, though.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: A person realistically could pass through all of this and still be a threat to your ministry.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: So these are just logistics, these are safeguards, and we need them.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Do all of them.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: People can still get through and we know it's happened and we know it like it's a thing.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: So then there's like the other aspect that's this is a little bit more of the soft skills.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: So those are like the hard skills to get this stuff done.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: But now it turns into wisdom when it comes to people.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: So here's here's where we need the Holy Spirit also to jump in and give us like the correct eyes to see what's going on because you don't want to be like pointing fingers at all people for whoa, whoa, I like what's why are you so intense?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: But we also don't want to be like, well, it was probably nothing.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: So behavior observation for me has been a really, really big tool.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: And here's I'll unpack that a little bit because that could be very vague.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: What I'm looking for with people is do they naturally, and I want to emphasize that word, naturally understand boundaries between students and adults.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Some people just it's a given.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, like there are certain boundaries with kids.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: These aren't my peers, these aren't my friends, like we were talking about earlier.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Do they naturally seem to understand that?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Or are they trying to be more of a friend than a leader, or usurp, even worse, usurp authority from the pastor, get secretive with students, disrespect you in front of students, or do they seem way more like team student than team leader?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: That is a behavioral observation that's important when we're dealing with people working with children.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: And here is what I found to be one of the biggest tells with this is if you do have to confront someone on their boundaries, how do they respond?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Their response tells you everything.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: So some like some boundary breaches are so obvious, and some are more of like a gut feeling.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, like say you have a rule, which a lot of churches do that adults aren't allowed to text or private message any kids.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: So if you find that they are, somebody's texting a student, and maybe it's simple, like what time is the event?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I get those all the time.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: And for those, I'm like, okay, go ahead and respond.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: But then if it starts getting really personal, you know, like they're talking about way too much personal stuff, and it's starting to feel like a friendship, and it's starting to feel like you're there for them or the only one there for them kind of thing.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's when communication needs to stop.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: So say a student texted a leader and said, Hey, what time is the event?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then the leader told them, and then the student's like, Hey, by the way, I'm really struggling, blah, blah, blah.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then the leader writes back.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of just saying, Hey, let's talk about a youth group or go, let's talk to the youth pastor about it, they keep engaging and going back and forth, back and forth.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it's getting frequent and deep and all of that.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because you don't want to like low EQ would be like, I am unauthorized to text students, please do not contact number.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: But you could a high EQ person would say, Oh my gosh, so sorry you're going through that.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think you should talk to Kristen about it, or your small group leader, I'll see you later, or something like that.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you're not like stiff arming them, but you're not engaging, you know, you're being kind, but falling within the boundaries.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: So say you bring that up to a leader and you say, Hey, I know so-and-so texted you about the time of the event.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: We just need to be really careful with texting students.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: And if they're like, oh my gosh, I know I was trying so hard to like keep it short without being rude.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: And hey, and then if they come to you first and tell you, like, hey, so-and-so is texting me, it's probably no big deal.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Could you just like follow up with them about whatever's going on?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: But if they're defensive and if they're making excuses or they laugh it off, or they go around you and your boundaries, or if they question you, that's been a big red flag for me.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Of like, well, let me ask you something.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Why would you put like and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're deflecting the issue right here.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: You're not taking any responsibility or apologizing for you breaching a boundary I've set.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: So now you questioning the boundaries so that you can justify how you fit into them.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: To me, that is like, yeah, you're probably out of here because that is a breach of trust and you did not respond well.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because some leaders are like, oh my gosh, I didn't know.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like they just, I don't know how they got my number.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: They must have asked a friend, and then they were, yeah, like, no, I would never, like, oh, I'm so sorry.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: And again, if they're the ones who tell you, you know, and and this is all hypothetical based on what your boundaries are.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you might be going, Well, we're allowed to do this or that.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Fine.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm just saying the point of it is how do they respond if you have to correct them in this area?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because it might not be with texting, it might be with the way they're interacting with students or something they said to a student, or maybe a touch from to a student that is like I tell them, like, hey, we wait for students to initiate.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if they want a high five, high five.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: If a kid comes up and wants to give you a side hug, like make it quick, you know.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: But again, the EQ is not like, I am not authorized to hug children.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you we're not initiating or not giving front hugs, but like if a kid comes up and wants to give me a side hug, I'll give them a little like pat, you know, and like, hey, so glad you're here.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Or if I can intercept it with a high five, happy to do that.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I just feel like there are uh when we observe leaders with a critical eye, which unfortunately we have to, what are we seeing?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: What are you picking up?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that gut feeling you have about somebody, sometimes that's the Holy Spirit trying to be like, hey, danger, danger, pay attention to this one.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: And those things sometimes I get enough of a gut feeling where I'm like, I think I'm gonna need to take some action here.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, quick question for you.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever felt like you are working really hard in your youth ministry every week, but you don't know what the next step is or how to grow your youth ministry?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you are not alone.
• 19:32
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• 19:40
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• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't just theory, it's the exact framework we've used and taught to youth pastors all over the country and even globally.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: In addition to the course and coaching, you will also have the opportunity to join a cohort community where you can meet with other youth leaders who are on the same journey to encourage each other, share ideas, and stay accountable as you put things into practice.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're looking for a clearer path to grow your ministry, head over to grow your youth ministry.com to see everything that's included.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Once again, that's growyouryout ministry.com.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: All right, let's get back to the episode.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: And we know in ministry appearances do matter.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not just like, oh, I did nothing wrong.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, um, the verse I was gonna talk about today is Ephesians 5 3.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: But among you, there must not even be a hint of sexual immorality or any kind of impurity or greed because these are improper for God's holy people.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what I was gonna use for this part of the conversation, but like that whole idea of not even a hint.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we know that what he's saying is it doesn't really matter if you did it or not.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a hint?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a whisper?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a wonder?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Is there like we shouldn't give people any room to wonder, any room to think, huh?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: What was that about?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like there should be zero questions or the need for questions.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: So going back to how do people respond?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, if they're defensive, making excuses, questioning you, it's like, eh, time to go.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's what I would say.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you're you're you're out.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: But if they're super embarrassed or apologize and you see a changed behavior and their explanation makes sense, again, you have to use wisdom.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: People are very creative and very sneaky.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: We know those people exist, but you have to also balance, you know, you can't be like so hyperly suspicious that it's like, oh my gosh, everything is bad.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: But you can't be the other side where you're just like, they didn't really mean that.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, whoa.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why it's hard to do this kind of episode because whatever example you're thinking of in your head, I'm not.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And vice versa.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so what rules you're applying to your scenario, it's like, no, immediately you would have to.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then whatever, it depends what you're thinking, what is the story in your head, and how do you apply these things?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's where leadership comes in.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: There are no blanket statements for a lot of leadership.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's some blanket statements for, oh, this kind of behavior.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely not.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: So you're gonna have to use a lot of leadership, Holy Spirit wisdom to navigate this because some of it will be black and white, like I just said.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're throwing it back at me.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: We are done here.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: Other things, I'm like, oh okay, that makes sense.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Let's keep an eye on it.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's it's tricky.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's very tricky.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: He definitely just don't want to be in a position where, if God forbid anything were to happen, whatever that might be, you would not want to think, well, I guess I see that.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: Or I could have seen that.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I you know, or like it doesn't surprise me.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Here's what I always I'm glad you brought that up because here's what I always imagine, and here's how I make a lot of decisions in ministry.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: I imagine myself in life.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: And in life, true.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: I imagine myself on the witness stand if some horrible crime were to happen for any reason, not just with this topic, but any any like safety issue, any judgment issue, anything bad happens.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I imagine myself on the witness stand being cross-examined by the prosecutor.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Prosecutor.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the questions that they would ask to try to make it seem like I'm at fault.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: And would those questions be legitimate?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: And would my answers like so you thought it was safe for a student to ride on top of a minivan going 70 miles an hour down the freeway?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then I would try to go Miss La Scola, yes or no?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then I would have to say, yes, you know, or you knew this, this, and this, yet you continued to this, this, and this.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: So your answer to that is yes, yes, because that's how you have to answer.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: I've watched enough dateline.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: You don't get to give a big old explanation of all the little nuances you were thinking and feeling.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, this is what the headline reads.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's true.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it always comes down to which which side would you rather err on?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, so just because this person had some red flags, you wouldn't let them, blah, blah, blah.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Versus you went ahead and let them do it?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, which side do you want to be on?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I was going to bring up.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes leaders are a little trigger shy because they don't want to hurt someone's feelings, you know, and make someone mad or, ooh, that's a really awkward conversation.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you're right, it is.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that is why we're leaders, because we have to do all the uncomfortable, messy stuff.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, I would much rather hurt an adult's feelings and burn a bridge with them than put a child on any level of risk.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: And again, you have to go through it with a fine-tooth comb, get very granular in what you're what is okay and what is not.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Wisdom comes into play, Holy Spirit comes into play.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the day, you're accountable to that stuff.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's specifically talking about whatever child is in your ministry, parents need to be able to trust you.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: You are then kind of passing that trust along to your leaders.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it's still filtering through you because it might be like, well, the leader did whatever.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't me.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, it ultimately comes back to you.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to be very careful of who you're allowing into your ministry to serve.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, a hundred percent.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so going back to like the behavioral observation is look at like this person and pay attention.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: What is their conversation?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: What are their regular conversations like?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: What kind of humor do they use?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: We've dismissed a couple of people for that.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Just it's like, uh, there's something in your personal life that's leaking through.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: I can tell.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: And we just said, not right now.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so pay attention to that.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: What's the content of their social media profile?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: That might tell you a lot as well.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't tell us everything again, but it helps us build a picture of what we're trying to get at.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna continue this conversation in a part two of this episode where we go over more of the prevention measures, like in terms of policy.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: So stick around for that episode coming up next.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: And if you guys would like a free copy of the student ministry volunteer application that we use, make sure you email us at Ministry Coach Podcast at gmail.com or check the description below