Latest / HEEL HAVOC / Thanos : Right Problem, Wrong Solution
Transcript
- Gator: Hello everyone and welcome back to Heel Havoc, the show that celebrates the villains, dives deep, finds out who they are, and maybe sometimes disguises themselves as heroes. Yes, we talk about villains, bad guys, heels from the squared circle, the television, of course, movies. I was like, we dive into everything. But occasionally we do find a diamond in the rough where there is so much. Potential. I'm your boy Gator. As always, every Wednesday, tune into Hill Havoc. This week, man, I've been wanting to do this for a while, and I felt that now is the time. We are gonna dive deep into this one. Cause imagine having the power to save the entire universe. But the only way to do it was to sacrifice half of all life. Would you do it? Because one man did, and millions of Marvel fans still argue whether he was a monster or a misunderstood savior. The reason Thanos became one of the most popular villains in movie history isn't because people agreed with him, it's because millions of people heard his argument and thought wait, he's not completely wrong. And that's where things get dangerous. Yes, we are talking about the Titan Thanos, the villain who believed he was saving the universe. Now, in the MCU, everybody remembers Thanos for one thing. The snap. That's not what makes him one of the greatest villains in fiction. What makes Thanos fascinating is the fact that he never believed he was the villain. He believed he was making the impossible choice that no one else could. Had the courage to make. So the question isn't, was Thanos evil? The real question is, was Thanos ever right? Because in the MCU, he was going off of pure what he saw. He believed it. He saw it. He lived it. So he thought he was actually doing the worlds a favor, the universe is a favor, but never back down. But Thanos isn't driven by revenge. He isn't driven by money. He isn't driven by chaos. He's driven by one idea. Resources are finite or finite. Excuse me. Life is not. Let me repeat that in one full sentence. Resources are finite. Life is not. And his solution? Reduce the population. Create balance. Simple. Efficient. Terrifying. Because if you all watch the MCU, then you know that he did not believe in picking one race over another, one world over another. It was half at random. completely and utterly random. So whether you were a good person, a bad person, I was like a misunderstood person, you were on that list and you could be just dismissed as that fast, as a snap. So now like I said, the MCU is different from the comics. Now, in the comics, like the Infinity Gauntlet in 1991, the comic version of Thanos is very different. Thanos wipes out half of all life to impress Mistress Death, the physical embodiment of death itself. He's obsessed with earning her affection. This makes comic Thanos more emotional, more obsessive. Less altruistic. So which version is scarier in y'all's mind? Let me know. Is it a man trying to impress death of all things? Or a man convinced he's saving everyone? Which is truly more terrifying? I don't know if I'd want to warm up to death myself, but you know what, everybody's got their kicks. So we dive back into the comics in Silver Surfer number thirty-four through thirty-eight, nineteen ninety, before the Infinity Gauntlet. Jim Sterling lays the groundwork for Thanos' return. And here we learn Thanos has studied the universe for years. He believes balance is necessary. He's patient, calculating. Philosophical. He's not a conqueror in a traditional sense, he's an ideologue. So this makes him more dangerous than anything because he's not rushing into anything because he thinks he's the biggest and the baddest. He plans things out. He waits for the right times. And he bets on victory every single time because he has imagined every single scenario. That's a scary leader, in my opinion, because that's not some I'd rather have an emotional who kind of overthinks it, dives in, you know, like Stark. And it's like he has a plan to attack. Thanos plan is not to just attack, it's to attack and win. So in the MCU, versus the comics, we know MCU Thanos believes overpopulation will destroy civilizations. He uses the infinity stones to create balance. Thinks he's merciful because the snap is random. I don't know if I would describe that as merciful. I mean, he could have said, you know what, like all the bad people gone, but that might eliminate half of his men. So really, I mean, can you describe him? But I don't think I would ever describe Thanos as merciful. But Comic on the Thanos, on the other hand, is driven by love for death. He seeks the ultimate power. and often acts out of ego as much as conviction. So what I'm gonna answer this in my own way later on, but I want y'all to think about your answer and please respond to this. Which Thanos makes for a better villain? One who thinks he's right and is merci thinks he's merciful, or the one that's just driven by power and love of death. I mean Good question. So why Titan matters? As we discussed, Thanos is living proof of why he's doing what he's doing, is because he has seen the effects of all of the things he's trying to avoid. In Avengers Infinity War, Thanos explains that his homeworld Titan collapsed because its leaders ignored his proposal to reduce the population. To Thanos, Titan isn't just a tragedy. It's proof. It is literally the embodiment of truth to him of what happens when resources are depleted and panic sets in. So every planet he visits reinforces his belief that hard choices save civilizations. So he's being the bad guy that the every world needs in order to survive not just another 20 generations, but another hundred. That is his mindset as he is extending life, not taking it. So the audience doesn't have to agree with him, but they can understand how he arrived there. Cause Thanos is correct about scarcity, resource competition, overconsumption, unsustainable growth. But he's catastrophically wrong about human behavior. Economics, innovation, and morality. That's where he's getting them all wrong, because he has he sees a problem. He's more of a an engineer, if you would, because he sees a problem and how to fix it, but he doesn't think about the morality behind fixing the problem. He just sees a problem and his best way to fix it. So was Thanos trying to save the universe? Or validate himself? Now, this is a good question for y'all because it gets deep fast. Because throughout the films, he consist constantly seeks confirmation. He wants people to admit you were right, Thanos. That's not just ideology, that's ego. Because think about it, he's not looking at any other way. I mean, with the infinity godlin, and I'll get to this in a second. I mean, he has power beyond power, but that is still his only way of fixing it. So he's looking for confirmation, validation, because he has had this theory and this thought so long. I think the actual proving him of wrong and say there is another way would be world shattering to him. Cause the most dangerous villains aren't the ones who lie, the ones whose past gives them a reason to believe they're right. Think about that for a second. Because we're going to dive back into comic Thanos real quick. On Thanos Quest 1990, the two-issue series shows how Thanos acquires the Infinity Gems. What's because you know in the MCU, he's already got a couple by the time we see him start taking stones real quick by Infinity War. what's remarkable isn't his strength, it's the intelligence. Because as we discussed, he's calculating, he does, he plans, he waits, he outsmarts cosmic beings through manipulation, patience, and psychological warfare. So Thanos doesn't win because he's stronger. He wins because he's always thinking three moves ahead. He's thinking what's going to happen. How can I combat this? What are they going to think to do? How can I beat that? And he lays it all out. So there's no winning with him. He's already thought about the scenarios. And what's going to happen. So now, when we get to the infinity war, we finally get Thanos versus the Avengers. Now, here's the irony the Avengers fight to preserve every life. Thanos is willing to sacrifice billions to save trillions. From Thanos' perspective, the Avengers are too emotional. And he's willing to make the choice that they never can, never will. never could. Cause yes, the Avengers think that you can save life. They're always looking for that second door. They're looking for that key under the mat. They're looking for the way to get it done without taking life. That they don't have to, of course. So if you truly believed sacrificing one generation would save a thousand more, would it ever be justified? Think about that. And I answer if you feel like drop me a comment. I would love to hear your take on this. Think about sacrifice one generation. Doesn't matter which one. And you save a thousand more. Would it be ever be justified 'cause you were extending life. So let's dive back into the comic Thanos in Infinity twenty thirteen. Jonathan Hickman's Infinity expands Thanos beyond the Infinity Gauntlet. While the Avengers battle cosmic threats, Thanos invades Earth, searching for his son, Thane. This act reminds readers that beneath the grand philosophy is still a ruthless tyrant willing to destroy anyone who stands in his way. As every parent knows, nothing's getting in between a child and a mama. And a daddy was right there behind backing up the mama. So with all this power that Thanos has, what's his fatal flaw? My opinion, it's arrogance. Thanos' greatest weakness isn't power, it's certainty. Cause as we talked earlier, I mean he never asked the question, what if I'm wrong? How hard and gr earth shattering would it be to prove him wrong and show him a different way, but he can accept it because he has built his entire life and his mission and his purpose even around this one philosophy. So he believes that only he has the courage to make the hard decisions. And that mindset has destroyed countless real world leaders. Now, when we jump back in time to Infinity War in 1992, even after achieving godlike power, Thanos' own subconscious sabotages him. Adam Warlock, who they really did over wrong in the MCU, but that's just me, realizes Thanos doesn't truly believe he deserves ultimate power. Deep down, he expects to fail. And you know, you kind of see that in the MCU because after he uses it for the snap, He goes straight to his little retirement, uses the stones one more time to destroy the stones so that nobody shit can have that power. He wasn't looking for the power in the MCU, but in the comics he was. So in the MCU, Thanos has purpose, but in the comics, is Thanos his own greatest enemy? Because he's expects to fail. I mean, let's compare Thanos to a few other villains and see where their philosophy matches up or completely goes a different direction. The Joker, one of my personal faves, just wants chaos. Wants pure and utter chaos. He wants everybody to be who they who he thinks they really are and no hiding who they are. Doctor Doom, which we'll get to in a few weeks. I'm Planning a great one for that one because with a new Avengers Doomsday coming out, I gotta talk about some Doctor Doom. But even he wants perfect order, but under his rule. 'Cause he believes he can is the only one that can make the correct decisions. Magneto wants mutant survival, but also he believes that mutants are the next evolutionary stage of humanity. He believes they are superior. And and Thanos, he just wants balance. He wants life to keep going. He doesn't want to see the universe happen or the same thing that happened to his world happen to the rest of the universe. Each villain believes their own vision will make the world better. Thanos simply has the largest scale. So let's break down some psychology on this, because one of the reasons Thanos resonates with audience is because he isn't impulsive. He mourns, he reflects, he even cries. When he sacrifices Gomorrah, he genuinely loves her. I mean, that's what makes him frightening. He's capable of love while committing genocide. I mean, and someone who's willing to sacrifice what they love most in this world, you really have to be scared of that person because they are that convinced and that with that much conviction, they will do anything to get it done. So being sacrificed Gamora, I mean, you have to it does raise the question does Thanos love Gamora? And like I said, I truly believe he did. I think he is. He felt closer to Gamor than any other person in the universe. But his love was conditional. He loved her enough to raise her, he not enough to spare her. That's not healthy love, that's possession. He believed he loved it no matter what they were gonna be. And he had to always question if he l if she loved him, and she did. It was hard for her to do that, to even kill him in a fake reality. Talk about a weird pairing makes makes me look all kinds of dad of the year. So let's dive back into the comics one more time. and Thanos wins in 2018. The alternate future story asks, What happens if Thanos actually succeeds? The answer: he still isn't satisfied. Even after conquering everything, he remains empty. It's one of Marvel's clearest statements that absolute victory cannot fill an emotional void. And think about that. I mean, at the end of Infinity War, we see him sitting down, even ch giving a little smirk of a smile. He feels he has finally done it right. But whenever we see him in endgame, it's almost like he wasn't that same person. Like he wasn't happy anymore. Like he did what he was supposed to do, and nothing is right now. So I mean I guess that if you break this all down, I mean Thanos was right until he wasn't. I mean, it's I mean it's the best way to describe it. I mean, he's right about the problem, wrong about the solution. Thanos identified a real problem and proposed a terrible solution. And that's what makes him one of the greatest villains ever created. Now, the big argument among a lot of readers, a lot of Marvel is was Thanos actually right? There's even a coffee mug in Endgame. Thanos was right. This is the biggest debate. Support supporters argue the finite resources are real. Population growth creates conflict. Massive conflict because you have too too many people, not enough space. Difficult choices sometimes save lives. And I think that is something that really resonates with a lot of people that support it. But the ones on the opposite side with the Infinity Godlet, Thanos had limitless power. And he could have created more food, expanded resources, improved planets, eliminated disease. And that makes so much more sense. I mean, than eliminating half the life. Then, like, look, no more famine. There's enough food for man, freeze some of that because it's gonna go bad. I mean, that makes more sense to me. But like we discussed earlier, it was more conviction. He was convinced that he was right. And he needed proof of it. He needed validation. So instead of Fixing small problems and by expanding everything, making more, he chose death. And that choice reveals his flaw. It wasn't just about balance. It was about proving his worldview. Cause in all honesty, Thanos never solves the problem. I mean, me okay, look at it like this way. Even if I mean he wins in Infinity War, he snaps, prompt, boom, done. And it's devastating. His plan works. Populations I was like thrive because there's plenty of everything. But here's the thing a thousand years or two thousand years from now, population is gonna grow again. Consumption eventually rises again. All these same problems return. So the snap was not a solution. It was a pause button on the end of everything because that's really what it was. The snap killing off half of the entire universe was a pause. It was delaying the inevitable. But the inevitable was still going to happen unless we come up with a real solution, which he did not see past the snap. So this part I want really want everybody to dig in on Thanos. I mean, was he right? His methods were terrible, but his concern was legitimate. Or n yes no, he ignored countless better solutions. Or third option. He was right about the problem, wrong about the solution. That's my pick. I mean, I think he was extremely right about the problem and incredibly wrong about the solution because there is always going to be resistance. Who's not gonna lie? And even he learned it at in end game, whenever he says, I was wrong. I should have wiped out all life and then created new that would be happy in the life. And he knew that after he it took him winning. To realize how wrong he was. So The real villain in on this one, and this here is the heel havoc twist. The real villain isn't population, it's certainty. The moment someone believes only I know how to save everyone, they become dangerous. That's true for Doctor Doom, Alma Coin, Osmodus, Phanos. Different worlds, same philosophy. So let's get down to the heel havoc verdict. Thanos isn't Marvel's greatest villain because he's the strongest. There are several, quite a few that are stronger than him. He's one of the greatest because he fo forces us to confront an uncomfortable question. How far would you go genuinely, if you genuinely or genuinely believed you were saving the future? His tragedy isn't that he identifies the real problem scarcities, conflicts, suffering. But becomes so convinced of his own solution that he cannot imagine any alternative. I do not think Thanos is a villain. I think his solution was the problem. I think his resolve and his dedication to life makes him more of a savior than it does a villain. But it wasn't until he puts his solution in play that he actually becomes the villain. So I don't know if you want to catch up, but real quick, if you want to check out the comics, Silver Surfer 34 through 38 back in 1990, Thanos Quest number one and two in 1990 as well, The Infinity Gauntlet in 1991. That one's good because that's a definitive Thanos story. Thanos Quest is more about the hunt for the Infinity Gyms. Infinity War in 1992, The Consequences of Absolute Power, Infinity 2013, Infinity. Hickman's cosmic epic and Thana wins a chilling look at ultimate victory. So after going through all that, realizing Thanos could have literally done anything with the power of creation, time, everything, reality, he could have done anything. Thanos didn't believe he was ending lives. He believed he was giving the universe another chance. That's what makes him unforgettable. The most dangerous villains aren't the ones who crave destruction. They're the ones who mistake their certainty for wisdom. And once they hold ultimate power, no one is left to tell them they're wrong. Man, that kind of resonates real bad. Real good too. So I'll leave you on this final question. Does having the right goal ever justify becoming the villain? I want to thank everybody for listening, tuning in. Like, subscribe, follow. I do this all the time. You want to hear a certain me cover and a villain that I haven't talked about yet? Drop me a line. I'll be happy to go over, do my research, and I am a thorough researcher. But until the next time, I want y'all to have a great one. Thanks for tuning in and always tune in to Heel Havoc every Wednesday where it's good to be bad.