Latest / WoT Spoilers / To Make a Stand - Towers of Midnight chapter 24 - EP559

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To Make a Stand - Towers of Midnight chapter 24 - EP559 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I tried so hard to find any evidence from
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: anyone anywhere that genre is a word. And this is
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: apparently my personal mandala effects that I am making manifest
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: into the material plane.
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: Can you just say it one more time? Because I'm
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: having it? Because I say genre, right, there's John like
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: the name John, and then raw like Shira, and it's
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: two very distinct syllables. And that's not how you're saying it.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: I'm saying genre. Yeah, because I've switched the e in
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: the R at the end in my head, got it?
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: Which again, I swear to God I've seen that, But
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: I can find no evidence anywhere the entire ass Internet
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: that proves that I'm not making that up. So definitely
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: the world has changed on me. My mind is completely
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: a steel trap and not malleable or plastic or prone
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: to error whatsoever.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: Obviously, obviously you're an alternate universe, because that's the better
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: explanation other than your mind is fallible.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that, kids, is how you are humble and
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: curious about the universe.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: Fuck for me, it's just like the number of times
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: I think cell phones have really shown me how wrong
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: I am all the time because I will be like, no,
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: this is what happened, and my wife will be like, no,
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: this is what happened, and will definitely be like, Okay,
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: well we have recorded video. Let's go look, and we're
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: both wrong, right. You know. It's like, you know, I'm
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: always it's one of those things where, man, memory is
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: a bad, bad, bad indicator.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it's that thing when you relive a memory,
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: it's you're reliving the last time you remembered it, not
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: the original file, and like that's how error creep in
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: over time. I was just getting reminded of this by
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: someone like showing like a paper about it recently.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: For me, what I've really been discovering, especially at work lately,
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: because it's just a lot of complicated shit in my job, right,
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: and so expectation affects what I see so much more
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: than I would have ever realized. What I expect to
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: be there, I will see even if that's not what's there.
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: And like, because you know, I've got these machines that
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: keep really good records, like I can go back and
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: check and it's like often I'm like, oh man, I
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: could have sworn that I saw something entirely different.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, and you actually have the literal receipts.
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: Like yeah, to be like, Nope, that's not what was there.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: You know, the numbers were different, and yeah, it's frustrating,
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: you know, to be like, my brain is not seeing
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: and same thing when I'll go back and listen to
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: the audiobooks that I read, the number of times I
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: see words that aren't there, or see a different word
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: or add in or subtract words, and you're like, my god,
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: I thought I was reading what was on the pa
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: and I'm not. I'm reading what I expected to be
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: on the page.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean that's a huge part of so many
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: like optical illusions. It's not necessarily fucking with your optics.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: It's just play with tricks of your memory buffer essentially.
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: That. And I've been doing some crosswords lately just to
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: kill time, to sort of get away from scrolling. I'll
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: read a clue and I'll read one of the words
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: wrong and that's what the word, you know, And I'll
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: read that clue five, six, seven times before I'm like
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: and then I'll get enough crosswords to be like, oh,
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: I know what the answer is, and I'll reread the
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: clue and realize I've been reading the wrong word the
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: entire time. And it's like, how did I continue to
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: read that word so badly because once I read it
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: once wrong, that was my expectation.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, expectations are h hmm.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: They're a problem, and especially until Iran Riad where Paren
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: goes in this chapter, right, the expectations is what determines
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: what actually happens. It's backwards in that way. You know,
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: we have all this problem where you know, reality is
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: different from our expectations, and so we see what we expect.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: Here they see what they expect because that's what actually
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: ends up happening. He uses his brain in his mind
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: to control tellern Riodd and how was that for a segue?
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: Amazing expert professional in less than five minutes of turning
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: recording on BRAVA.
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: Hey, you know I've got motivation. I like parent. I
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: am focused on a goal right here. You're gonna start
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: this thing and I'm gonna finish it. It's It's might
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: take me a decade, but I'm getting through this guy.
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: He's God damn books.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: And much like Paraen, you're so focused on the one
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: thing that you're missing that we actually start with a
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: lane in this chapter. Today we have to turn twenty
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: four to make a stand with the wolf as our symbol.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: And the wolf is not related to a lane, obviously,
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: it's related to the parent section. To make a stand
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: is not related to a lane or to parent section.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: That is related to the Geralda section because she says
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: something to the effective this is a good place to
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: make a stand, as good as any or whatever in Maredon.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: But I don't quite understand why the wolf and that
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: title go with opening with Elaine. I don't know. If
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: I was putting these together, I would have the title
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: and the symbol go together and preferably go with the
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: first or significantly largest of the povs. That's how I
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: would design it.
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: Or try and come up with something that's like a
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: theme between the various povs. Right, I think that would
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: be really clever. But sometimes these are just so unrelated.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there isn't a theme between them.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: So I mean you could say that it's Elaine is
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: not standing ha ha, because she's got the bed rest
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: to not make a stand.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: Lazy to make us sit lifely.
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean I Geralda was little wolf, right,
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: So the old.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: One he's the little wolf because he's Napoleon.
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: He's no will gang you little guy, so the wolf
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: could reference him there, so it could just both be
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: the ey Giraldo because the wolf definitely doesn't reference paren
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: in this situation. Hm hm hmm.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Should I read an please? Okay? Bed rest, Melfane announced,
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: taking her ear from the wooden tube she'd placed against
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: Eline's chest. The midwife was a short, ample cheeked woman
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: who today wore her hair tied back by a translucent
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: blue scarf. Her neat dress was of white and matching
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: sky blue, as if worn in defiance of the perpetually
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: overcast sky. What Elaine asked one week, Melfane said, wagging
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: a thick finger at Elaine. You aren't to be on
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: your feet for one week. Elaine blinked, stunned, her exhaustion,
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: fleeing for the moment. Malfane smiled cheerfully as she consigned
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: Elaine to this impossible punishment, bed rest for a week.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: And I'll cut it there, because, uh, you know, that's
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: basically the conclusion for the next several pages is Elaine
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: squawking about bed rest. In various ways, shapes and forms,
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: characters come through in and out. But that's the vibe
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: for where we're at.
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: And I love the interaction between the midwife and her
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: being like, I'm the queen, I'm the Queen's midwife, and
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: he's not a single person that won't let me tell
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: you what to do because that's because you're pregnant.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: Like, the only person who can supersede the queen is
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: the queen's midwife because she is speaking on behalf of
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: the queen's pregnancy, which is the only thing the queen
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: actually has to listen to more than herself.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, love it.
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: And then there's a fun interaction between Burgido and Elaine
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: or Brita's like, I'm glad you're staying here, and Elaine's like,
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: what would you trap me here forever? And she's like, no,
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: but six months might be nice.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: Right right? If we could just get you through that
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: fourth trimester, I would be so much more happy.
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: And then there is this legitimate point where Brigita is like, listen,
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: if you're gonna go into traps, let me know. I'm
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: your warder. I need to protect you. I can't protect
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: you in traps if you're not gonna tell me you're
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: getting into one.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So I really liked this section from Brigita because
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: this is the argument Gowen thinks he's making to agwayn.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: A lot of the words are the same. The anger
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: definitely is coming out in a lot of the same forms.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: In this case, however, Brigita is completely fucking justified in
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: being angry at her literal eyes to die for treating
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: her like an annoying little boy that won't go away.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: Right Like in Gowen's case, he's not actually bonded. Igway
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: didn't actually ask for that, Like, there's there's nothing Gowen
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: thinks that he's making this argument. He does not have
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: the legal or moral, or emotional or magical grounds for
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: that Burgita does.
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: I'm nodding.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: It's just like and it's really funny too, because we
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: want Gawen to come and relieve Brigida of some of
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: her duties, right like they really could be. He could
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: be learning so much from her. She really could be
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: molding him into a very effective carbon copy of her
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: sense of duty. But instead, nah, and.
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: Remember that's where we left him. He was heading towards them, right.
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: That was his last POV was I'm going to a lane, right,
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: I'm leaving a GWayne behind.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean yes, they're absolutely This feels like
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: it could be a moment where Gawen shows up saying
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: I don't know how to do this protecting the woman
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: I love thing, and Brigida has to take him under
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: her wing and be like, look, you need to actually
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: be bonded to her first before you take that tone
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: with her, like first of all, and like, yes, there's
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: the weird consent thing where Brigida and actually asked to
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: be a warder, but like she's made her peace with that,
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: like as she says here, like I was given these circumstances,
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: I've made my choice, but like you are now renegging
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: on the that you entered into with me, whereas you know,
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Gowen is forcing the agreement onto Aguaine and saying this
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: is what I want, So therefore you're betraying me if
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: you don't follow through with.
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: It and the content stuff you know, it was it
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: was bonded or die, right, those aren't like that exactly.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a level of choice that Brigida didn't have
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: that Gwen wants to have, but like that's that's beside
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: the point. The point is that Elaine asked for a
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: warder and Agwayne didn't, and only one of them gets
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: to be mad when they get circumvented, And like it's
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: super justified for Brigida to be like, what are we
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: doing here?
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: What?
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: Why am I your warder? If this is how you're
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: going to treat me, that's so justified. Gawain says the
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: same thing, and Agwain's retort is, but you're not my worder.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: It go was like, oh my god, how can you
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: be some me? It's like it's a fact, my dd right.
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: You haven't proven that you're loyal enough to be my order.
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: You just like want the title. You're like a guy
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: who wants a promotion to a job, not because he
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: can do the job, but because he wants the title
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: of the job.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, it's just very it's just nice to see
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: this argument being made because you want to have your
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: supergirls get protected. So it's nice to have someone make
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: the argument from the moral high ground rather than from
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: off to the side in like naval gazing land.
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: But well, nor the point that like she probably would
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: have been killed if she'd gone along, she wouldn't have
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: necessarily stopped the kidnapping, and she's not valuable as we
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: see later when she gets killed, right.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Like I mean, and then there's that, But that's a
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: level of meta gaming that we can't expect from them, right,
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: That's that's for us to know, as the spoiler people.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: Because yeah, I mean, Elaine is right that that mission
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: was not for taking warders along. But maybe that mission
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: was for warders to shoot down before it ever happened
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: because it was a bad plan, right, Maybe that's how
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: Brigida protects you. She makes you realize that this is
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: not the way. You know. It's like I learned in
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: martial arts, like the best way to win a fight
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: is to not end up in one in the first place,
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: situational awareness and back away from the scary alley way
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: because you have spidy senses that are trained. You don't
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: need to win a knife fight. You need to avoid
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: a knife fight.
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: Nobody wins in a knife fight.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like a Burgida, a warder is there to
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: be like, maybe don't throw yourself into a pit of vipers.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: Maybe maybe don't do that.
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: And I like, Hawlene, it's like, well I'm not going
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: to do that again, and she's like, you're gonna do
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: something else, dumb though.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: Like it, don't rule lawyer to me on a risk
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: taking a la.
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: You've made a habit of this, then you're not going
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: to stop, especially.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: Now, like we know who you are as a person.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: All we're asking is that you let the team back
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: you up.
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: But I really do think there is this thing in
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: Elaine's brain that says, I have this prophecies from men
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: that makes me sort of have this guarantee, and anyone
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: I bring with me doesn't have that guarantee, and I'm
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: putting them at risk. And there's a reason why I'm
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: going by myself. I'm much less likely to put other
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: people in danger by doing that, ignoring the people who
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: have to die to rescue her every single time that
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: she puts herself in danger.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: But yeah, ignoring the boy who cried wolf emotional whiplash
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: that she's doing by sneaking behind her bodyguards rather than
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: convincing them that it's a good risk, Like, come on, girl,
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: respect the people that are trying to help you. So
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: Brigida gives her a very good I'm not mad, I'm
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: just disappointed, and Elaine shrinks like a small child, and
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: I for one am glad to see it.
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: So in comes Matt.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: Right, Yes, Matt comes in like an anxious father. He's
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: so funny.
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: I really did enjoy the sparring between Elaine and Matt.
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: Here there's a good amount of just like back and forth.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: And Brigida gets in on it. Like Elaine thinks at
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: the beginning, how like Matt and Brigida are tearing into her,
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: But then later Brigida's tearing into Matt too. Like good banter,
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: good banter all around.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, good, well written banter. Just Matt, looks like you've
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: been losing end of a battle skirmish. The details are
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: none of your business.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what were you doing at a pool of your
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: own blood? Down to the dungeon? I was interrogating the
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: Black Auja.
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, okay, sure.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: She's not lying, she's just leaving out so much context.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: Matt is once again trying someone's trying to convince him
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: that he's being hunted by the Black Aja, which he
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: refuses to believe, no matter how many times he's been
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: attacked by bandits or robbers who are actually just people,
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: like all the way back to Tarvallin on his lucky night, Right, Yeah, Matt.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: And his refusal to acknowledge his position, both in the
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: pattern and on various assassin's lists, is really comical at
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: this point. At this point, even he knows it's a
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: bit right, right, it.
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: Feels like it. We get a list of the dark
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: Friends who escaped Malar Chayne, Marilyn GalF and Falian.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: Boda, right, and those two are from the origine Janel
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: Black Auja thirteen. Like they are continuing to slip in
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: and out of custody.
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: And remember Chayanne is the original, right, the girl with
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: the knife in the you know she's back eyed.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: The way from the road trip from Hell. Yeah, yeah,
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: she's she's an old school dark friend and she is
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: on the lamb once again. And then the secretary was
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: you know, our one connection between that one high seat.
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: Right, the one who we always yeah.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: The one we're not sure she's a dark friend or not,
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: because her secretary was a sadist and a dark friend.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: But anyway, he got killed. He got knifed in the
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: back in a clearly like tying up loose ends kind
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: of way.
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: Well, and that was definitely a mel R kill on
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: the way out.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: Yes, oh yeah, is that true? Is that that Millie's
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: skin actually just gets away at the end of the
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: last battle.
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: I think she kind of just puts her head down,
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: is like peace, I'm out. I'm not a dark friend anymore.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: I'm just so survivor.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, good for her. She's a terrible person,
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: but so many of the women get like imprisoned or
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: brain wiped or married. Like if she just like ski
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: daddles off into the sunset, Like that's kind of cool
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: because she's been there since the beginning.
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: And as far as I'm aware, this is it. This
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: is the end of her storyline, Like she escapes and
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: she is at large. Oh really yeah, Like this is
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: the last time she's mentioned.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: Wow, good for her, Sanderson, just let her go have
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: a reasonable I mean, she's a bad person. She should
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: have been punished in some regards.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: But also, like, I.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Don't know, there's something a little satisfying about a woman
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: not meeting a grizzly or embarrassing end. Does it make
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: her the only book dark friend? Does that make her
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: the only dark friend to live through the books? Land fear,
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: I will quit this podcast right now. I will turn
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: this podcast around and go hold exactly, make me drive
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: this podcast off a cliff exactly mean talk Land fear
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: is dead. You don't get to bring her back because haha,
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: Matt Hatch thought so the whole time. That's not no.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: I like Matt, but he's not a generator of canon. No,
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: that's uh Eludra precisely, precisely.
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: So we do have the moment where Eline kind of
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: reflects and goes like, I guess I didn't really get
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: anything out of this except being exhausted. Everybody kind of
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: got away.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: And copies of the Medallion now exist in dark front hands. Like,
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: we have the ability to make copies on our side,
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: but they also have copies, and that's not great. They
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: have a copy, okay, a copy, a singular copy, but
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: who knows, they might have their own dark a lane, right,
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: who will get to making I mean more inferior copies.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: But still, you.
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: Know, seems like the shan Chan should be up on
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: making copies of Taron Greol because they can make the
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: callers right, and they have the training in that. But
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: it feels like, you know, it's one of those things
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: where they're trained in one very specific turon greal and
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: in no way is that generalized to any other ones.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I really would have loved a plot line where
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: the shawan Chan immediately glom onto these things even though
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: they are kind of inferior and just start churning them out.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: And it's a whole like confounding factor. We can't head
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: canon that that happens in the Fourth Age. That Foxhead
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: medallion knockoffs are like a big part of the military
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: arms race that you know, shapes the conflicts of the
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Fourth Age.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: Especially the ones that don't let you channel, right, because
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: then you can have a bunch of you know, someone
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: like tu On can have the Foxhad Medalion. Well, here's
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: the question. Would she be able to control an a
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: doom and hold a Foxhead medallion one of the flawed
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: Foxhead medallions?
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would think not. I would think that that
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: would I feel like that would shut down the part
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: of your mind that's able to do the controlling.
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: Stuff right right, And because you have to be in
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: a circle, right right, Yeah, death death Watch guards armed
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: with them would probably be the number one thing they do.
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: Can you imagine, oh, your death watchguards with the Amulet
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: coming at a.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah wow, yeah definitely. And also you could have you know,
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: handcuffs or something for criminals where it's like okay, now
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: you can't channel because we like slap these cuffs on.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: You, right, right, you also can't be affected by channeling,
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: but you can't channel. Yeah, I guess that would be
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: it's kind of a side effect. But that is almost
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: a useful effect, right. It's it's like pharmacy drugs. Right.
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: Half the time they're like, oh, there's these side effects.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: They end up becoming off label effects that sometimes people want.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is not the worst analogy. So we end
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: the POV with Matt I think, laying out the beginnings
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: of his plan for how to deal with a goal
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: on mainly being asking for a gateway that gets made
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: in the palace and like that whole piece of the puzzle.
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: Oh, I think, But he's asking for us a bunch
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: of copies of the medallion, right, because he's like, were
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: you able to copy it? And he's like, okay, well
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: now I need something right now that you can. Now
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: I know you can copy it, can I get a
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: bunch of copies?
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: Oh? See, I thought he came in with the record.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: I thought he was walking in meaning to ask her
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: about the gateway that gets made. I didn't think he
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: had put it all together in that brief moment of time.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: I thought that like that was part of Oh no,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: he was there to be with Brigida. They were hanging
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: out and then we're still in the immediate aftermath of
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: the thing, right. Yeah. I guess maybe he thought it
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: all through that fast.
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: Because he's been thinking. He's been thinking and planning with
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: the people to be like, how can we take down
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: this goal home. He's gone through that planning stages.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: Right, and he needs a gateway in order to do that.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: He was going to have to ask her for a gateway,
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: regardless of if there's copies of the medallion in the picture.
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: Totally but I'm sure. But because he asks, were you
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: able to copy it right there? Then he immediately goes
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: into okay, I need a favor.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I no, that's true. That's true because he
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: probably was yeah, oh, because.
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: That was probably as part of their planning. It's like,
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: if she's able to copy it, what can we do
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: with those? Can we use those copies to drive it? Right?
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: Because it's a two part plan. Drive it with the
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: well first, tempt it into place, then drive it with
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: the medallions through a gateway that's been already opened from
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: the other side. So he doesn't feel the channeling, right, yeah,
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: because it's a destination gateway instead of it. So there's
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: like there's like a multiple part plan. But I think
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: they had it all planned out, and I'm sure there
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: was this contingency if she's able to make copies of
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: the medallion, which of course is what she said she
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: wanted to do with it, right, Oh.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, she did tell him that when she go Okay,
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: I am bad at connecting the dots. I'm missing the
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: forest for the trees, like it's going out of style
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: right now.
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: Well, that's why we're both here, So it's so one
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: of us can stop and look around every once in
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: a while.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: Teamwork make the dream work.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: It really does. And this is that's the thing, Like
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: no one person can see everything. We make assumptions. We
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: were just talking about before this podcast started. How much
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: our expectations affect what we see and what we read
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: and how and how much, Yeah, your expectations about these
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: chapters and what you know about them effect. It's one
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: of the reasons I love going through and making my
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: notes because so often I look at something a little
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: bit closely, I look it up. I challenge my expectations
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: through research, and so often just doing the notes, I
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: discover a whole other layer to these books.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, So with that, is it time for a
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: POV switch over to Maradon.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah. After all though, and this is basically them in
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: the city. A lot of names here, a lot of names.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: I'm assuming this is another crop of donors and beta readers.
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: Some of them are, some of them have been around
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: for a while. But one of the things I did
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: discovered when researching this is where the names are coming from.
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: These aren't just fans, right, These are fans who donated
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: to a Wheel of Time charity raising money for research
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: into amyloid do amyloid dosis, which is what killed Robert Jordan.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: So these are people who've raised money for the disease
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: that killed the research in the that disease.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: Okay, So every one of these names represents like a
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: material step towards trying to not lose the next Robert
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Jordan in that exact way. That's that's a nice, bittersweet
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: kind of thing to have peppered through.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: And probably not all of them, right, I think some
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: of the people were I've been saying they're all beta readers,
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: and then I'm like, hm, I feel like something else
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: is going on here. I think some of the more
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: beta readers, but some of them are definitely those who
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: donated to the charity.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: Well, like, we know that Matt Hatch is not one
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: of the charity donators, right like we know. Okay, so
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: a little call a a little columby. We don't know
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: the proportions, but that makes a lot of sense.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: And so and tail was named for Stephen until way
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: to go Stephen Nice Nicee.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: I saw that name, and I'm like, okay, so this
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: is the beginning of the name. It seems like this
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: particular plot is taking a lot of the heavy lifting
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: on these names.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, of those names get just a lot of Saldaeans,
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: a lot of Borderlanders, A lot of people want to
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: be Borderlanders.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: I mean a lot of those guys gotta die real quick.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: So it's a good place to be thrown all those names.
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: I wanted to ask about the Trader banner, Trader's banner
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: by the Saldaeans. I don't understand why it's called the
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: traders banner. Did you catch that?
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: It's a way of saying that they're traders. It's kind
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: of the pirate flag, right, They're declaring the ways in
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: which they're outside of the bounds of law. Like I mean,
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: not that I've ever heard of that in the real world.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: I just like from context, it was like, okay, so
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: if you have done an uprising, and do you want
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: everyone to know there's a new guy in charge, this
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: is a way that you signal that.
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: So are they saying that the people in the town
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: what are they against?
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: The military had a coup. Okay, it was a military coup.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: So these are the people who did the coup in
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: order to ride out and rescue a Giralda. And they
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: are under this new banner, not the vram who was
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: in charge of the city, who's a dark friend, right,
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: like he's a terrible dark friend.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, exactly. The leadership was not doing the right thing,
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: and so lower levels of the military decided that their
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: oath mattered more than the chain of command and that
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: they needed to rise up and literally kill their superiors
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: and take control of the city in order to do
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: the right thing. And this is a way for them
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: to signal to the town, to other armed forces, to
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: anyone that rides up to the gate. This is a
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: way for them to say, this is what we did,
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: and we're not hiding it. We're not claiming that that
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: didn't happen. I mean, and he has this whole thing
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: about how he's going to demand execution at the end,
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: and one of his subordinates says, you know, I'll be
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: with you to the end, and like clearly referencing the
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: part where there's going to be a you know, mass
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: execution when the queen comes back to town, which obviously
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: doesn't happen because most of them probably hurl themselves into
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: the last battle before Tanobia has a chance to get back,
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: because Tenobia dies in the last battle so.
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: Well, and him and his wife claw out their eyes
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: and throw themselves out a window when Rand comes around.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, when Rand comes by doing his like glowing
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: Jesus thing.
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they drives them in sane.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: They can't handle it because they're pretty deep in the shadow,
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: you know. In this chapter, the guy Yearly says, I
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: can't tell if they're fools are dark friends, And the
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: answer is deep dark friends. They're not foolish dark friends.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: They're not shadow level dark friends. They are deep in
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: the shadow. And that's why they needed a military coup
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: in order to get you know, to do the right thing.
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: So and we see evidence of fighting before they rode out, right,
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: there were some there's basically, yeah, that evidence of the
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: coup is what you're saying.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: Exactly, because you know when two different when your giant
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: chain of command fractures into smaller pieces, some people are
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: going to pick the wrong side of that fracturing, right.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: We saw that with the Tower coup. Right, many women
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: stayed who wish that they had left in the end.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: But like you know, stuff breaks really fast. You find
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: yourself on one side of the fault line and that's
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: what you deal with. And sometimes you get run through
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: with a sword because that's how the friction is crumbling.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: And you know it's okay to think, oh maybe I
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: should go with my superior officer. As stuff happens really fast,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: like this happened in a matter of you know, minutes,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: half an hour.
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: Right, I mean we saw how confusing it was.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this was a really rapidly evolving situation. So yeah,
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: they had to kill some of their own countrymen in
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: order to do the right thing, which is again why
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: they're like, we're gonna proclaim this with a flag. We're
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: not going to pretend everything's fine and dandy.
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: So either all the talks with Ram the Dark Friend, right.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he wants to go see this lord and lady
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: that were willing to let him and his men die
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: until a literal military coup changed the thing. He needs
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: to meet them and look at them in the eye
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: and tell them to go to Hell straight from the
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: depths of his soul in person, which I love from him.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: When there was that moment where they're like, oh, and
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: you're dragonsworn, He's like, no, I'm I mean technically, yeah,
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: I guess.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: I am, Like yeah, I mean. He even makes the
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: argument to Yearly later like swear yourself to the dragon.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: It fixes all of your allegiance problems. Like, sir, you're
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: proselytizing for becoming a dragon sworn. I think that makes
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: you a dragon sworn.
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: Right, absolutely, But you know, for a long time, dragon
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: sworn has been this like foul thing that like just
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: created was an excuse to create havoc on because they
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: had all these false dragons and some people who were
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: dragon sworn. We dragon sworn to these false dragons give
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: up all allegiances and just you know, locusts across town
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: for no reason because they were false dragons. Right, So
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: you know, there's this history of dragon Sworn being something
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: that's very despicable and very looked down upon.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: And even in the books, even with this real dragon,
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: we've had dragons Sworn being mostly, you know, a disparaging
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: term for bandits who will use any excuse to break
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: down civic order. It makes me wonder how many of
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: those bands were actually not just horrible bandits, but we're
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: just being misunderstood weird religious seekers or whatever.
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: Well, if you remember, a lot of the dragons Sworn
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: were white cloaks stirring up trouble back then, right, Oh, yeah,
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: that's right, because Rand was like, I want to go
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: down to them, and Marine's like, no, you shouldn't, And
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: it turned out he really shouldn't because they were white cloaks.
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: For the most part, there was some actual bands of
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: dragon Sworn, but it was just white cloaks stirring up
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: trouble because they were trying to use Pedro Nile was
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: using those disturbances to try and take over the plane,
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: and that's where he got all pissed off when the
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: Dark Friend.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: Bores Jacob Cariden.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: Jacob Carriden failed to secure the land because He's like,
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: I set it up. I did all this work, you know,
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: like were bands of people's that was his job. That's
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: what Jacob Carroden was doing. Is he was out there
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: being dragon Sworn to terrorize the people so that the
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: White Cloaks could come in and take over. And so
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: he was literally a dark friend being the dragon Sworn.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it meant that Rand was never able to
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: gather up all the well meaning dragon Sworn who actually
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: wanted him to be their savior for this end of
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: the world doomsday cult situation because they were being divided
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: and conquered and controlled and managed by dark friends and
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: dupes of dark friends who were trying to make you know,
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: anemic fascism happen, basically.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: And if he did ride down and get anyone grouped together,
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: he'd never be able to gather enough groups fast enough
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: to keep from being wiped out. He'd gather attention faster
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: on once he was part of a group, that group
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: would be targeted. So that was whole Moraine's whole argument
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: about That was their whole argument in the Great Hunt
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: book to Great Hunt, right, and that was when the
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: most time passed. Right. Great Hunt was like a year
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: and three months, and like six months of that was
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: them arguing about him going down to the Dragon sworn,
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: which in a book that it takes, you know, two
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: and a half years from in a series that's two
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: and a half years from start to finish, six months
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: of it being them arguing about that one thing, right,
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: it was such a major part of their his experience
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: and the relationships that formed and everything that was going
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: on over those six months that we kind of skip past.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: That was the biggest time jump, and I honestly do
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: think that we could have had more of those in
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: the series as they went on. There's times when he's
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: in a palace where I think like another couple of
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: months could have gone by and we would have been like, oh, yeah,
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: this makes more sense as everybody has more time to
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: catch up, things have time to happen. But then you
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: have other characters who are stuck traveling and it wouldn't
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: make sense for them to be traveling for like three years.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: It's hard to make a sprawling fantasy world. I think
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: it is.
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: It is, so yeah, there's this argument between Yoli and
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: Drawl to about, hey, come join with me, you know,
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: swear to the Dragon. We talked about that briefly, and
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: he's like, no, no, I'm going to stick with my oaths,
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: And so Aal was like, well, we're going to make
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: a stand here. We got the army because they still
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: have that giant trollic army outside. Just because they were
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: rescued into the town doesn't mean the Trollic army has disappeared, right,
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: It's this huge giant army they've been fighting this whole time.
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: Now they have walls, they have a slight advantage, but
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: it's not gone.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: Right. The town is still vulnerable. The two armies are vulnerable,
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: the border lands are vulnerable. Right, the bigger problem still exists.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: And yeah, Yurely is like, I'm going to demand execution
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: at the end of this. But in the meantime, how
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: big can we make those gateways? What kind of like
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: interesting plot twists can we add to our siege as
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: I defend my city? And a Charl is like, yeah,
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: I guess if you're willing to give your life up
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: for me, this is where I'm making my stand. I'm
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: going to give up my life for you to make
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: this a focal early battle of the last battle, Like
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: here we go, this is the spot.
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: The commuted sentence comes into play a bunch in these books.
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: Right with paren here, I feel like there's like I
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: yeel or something that are gonna go kill themselves, and
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: parents like I'll put you on the front lines. Probably
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: died there, and they're like, cool, might be borderlanders. I
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: can't remember. I'm getting who that is mixed up. But
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: there's a couple of times where there's like someone who
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: committed Oh yeah, it's someone who committed a crime. Yeah,
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: I'll remember it later. I'll remember once we turn off recording.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, this is definitely a shower thoughts kind of kind
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: of remembering because I feel like you're right, but I
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: am not drawing the name or the circumstance to mine.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: And yet also the end of this POV is where
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: we get the title of the chapter to make a
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: stand in the city, and then we POV switch over
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: to Perrin.
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: Yes, and we start out of the dream and then
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: in the dream and then back out of the dream.
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: And there's not much more in the out of the
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: dream other than him going I'm gonna fight the like
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: cloaks tomorrow. They've forced me into it. I don't want
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: to do it, but he's telling fail essentially like prepare
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: for war.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then after the dream he thinks about it
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: even harder. And but yeah, the thoughts that the before
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: and after the dream sequence are very, very connected.
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: So the dream sequence is I mean, that's a talking
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: training montage right for the first time.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: A lot of mechanics being communicated, a lot of four
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: shocks of the conflict with Slayer, the being hunted, the dome. Well,
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: the dome isn't really here, but the being hunted and
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: the dome connect. Yeah, a lot of four shocks for
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: exciting new dream stuff that's going to be happening with
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Parent over the rest of this book, rest of the series.
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: And then just lineing, like the second paragraph, Beloir had
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: not recognized the seal Parent had described, get.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: You going, that's such bullshit.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: It's such bullshit. It's such bullshit that Baloir would not
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: recognize Gallid Seal, right, who's been in the White Cloaks
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: since before he was in the White Cloaks is one
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: of the most important political figures of and Or. When
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: he dealt with Andor and more, Gaze and like, yeah,
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: and Morgaze was constantly asking for him, and they were
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: saying they were lying and saying he can't be around
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: like pedri Nile was there for all that, Beloir was
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: there for all of that. He knows exactly who he is.
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: He knows exactly where he was stationed, he knows the symbol.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: It's the only way that this makes sense is if
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: you commission a new personal seal as part of becoming
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: Lord Captain commander, which we've had exactly no mention of.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: So it's every reason to believe that Baalwar is the
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: man who assembled the entire file on go On. Baller's
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: the one who pulled together all the information and put
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: it in a nice manimal envelope and put it on
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: Pedro Nile's desk and said, here you go. This is
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: everything we know about this man. Balwer absolutely knows who
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: Galas is based on his steal. This is the most
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: glaring annoying plot hole in the history of glaring annoying plot.
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: Holes, because so much of Paren's plot line here is
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: bound up in him not knowing who this is and
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: how much they are able to repair their you know,
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: gain mutual respect, have more gaze, step in. All of
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: those things are super important just to knowing who he is.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: It's so critical, like paren just wants to not kill
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: these guys. Galad just wants to get justice. And Baalwer
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: is sitting there like Matt with that fucking letter, just
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: like Terpreter, except in this case he doesn't even He's
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: just a plot hole. This is Sanderson's fault. This isn't
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: even Ballwer's fault.
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: These are Sanderson's way of building tension that make me
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: not happy. Write a letter that he has in his
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: pocket that he's just not gonna read because he's stubborn.
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: Right to me, that's just frustrating. This as well, is
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: just a frustrating way of saying, Oh, they're just not
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: gonna talk to each other. And Baalwer is a plot
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: hole where I feel like he's forcing that into place.
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: He's building force tension here in a way that I
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: don't like. It's it's very frustrating.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: It's embarrassing. Okay, put respect on Balwer's name, as light
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: blinded fool says like this is not fair to bal War.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: Balwer is not the intelligence von Braun of these books
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: for nothing. You just can't do that. You just can't
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: do someone in sh I forget who a few days
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: ago was like Balwer is the literal Von Brown of
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: the books, because there's this little couple like about Von
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: Brown not caring where the rockets come down because it's
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: not his department. Ball Wer's kind of the same with
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: the way that he just does intelligence for like the
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: absolute worst people. But like at least give him the
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: credit for having done the intelligence work Sanderson.
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: Right, right, and being yeah, and a source of good intelligence, right.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: You just you completely undermine his character with that line.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. Also, did you see in the Elaine section
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: there's even mention of the invasion of Camlin, Right, She's
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: thinking she doesn't mention it to Matt because she don't
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: want to cause panic or whatever, But it's like it's
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: on the page. The universe is just like it's right there,
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: makes it right? Yeah, So like if she had just
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: mentioned it around Matt, maybe he would have for some
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: reason pulled that. I don't know, I don't know, it's just, yeah,
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Sanderson's methods of building tension are a bit hidden miss
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: for us, I think would be the charitable way to
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: say that.
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, I don't know how much you want to
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: talk about this training montage. You know, he starts off
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: just running as fast as he can, then he figures
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: out how to essentially appear where he wants to appear,
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: and then he sort of gets what I think is
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: a big level up for the first time, which is
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: the ability to follow someone who teleports. And that's not
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: something that's necessarily anybody else has had except maybe the
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: forsaken using weaves.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like the way that Hopper describes it
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: makes me think that other dreamers can develop a similar sense,
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: because it's not just smells, kind of the analogy metaphor.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: There's more to it than that. So I think that
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: dreamers and presumably people who know magic in various forms
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: can also have that skill. But yeah, we don't see
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: it in practice. Oh yeah, Amis does that when she
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: first meets Agwain. Right, she's able to follow a GWayne
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: to tan Chiko.
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: That's right, She's like, where is this place? She does
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: no idea because she just senses.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she just followed Agway like, so clearly, yes, this
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: skill transcends wolfy olfactory skills.
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: And I like the way they're able to say anyone
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: who can smell as I do, and maybe the wise
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: ones are just clever enough to make themselves have a
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: better sense of smell.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: Nah, I think it's just that smell is too much
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: of an analogy. It's it's not their old factory hardware.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: It's something to do with their sense of presence in
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: the dream, which the wolves are going to interpret through
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: their best sense, which is smell.
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: We go through all the arguments about you know, we've
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: talked about this million times, but paren you know, it's
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: not wolf in him, it's the human in him. Right.
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: He's the only one who had to be stopped and
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: told in the hunt. The wolves know when to end
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: the hunt. The person in you who he wants to
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: continue violence long past the normal point is not a wolf, right.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: And he asks the question is it possible to run
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: on four legs and not come too strongly, to which
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: Opera says, yeah, obviously, it's.
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: Like you're mixing up those two things. Parents. He's he's
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: being a wolf and being here too strongly are not
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: the same thing.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Right exactly, And it's yeah, we've talked about it a
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: million times. Sanderson does say a lot of really good
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: versions of what he wants to say here. The problem
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: is that he didn't cut out the six other versions
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: right that that he.
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: Wrote, right, Yeah, the number of times he's like, he
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: doesn't need to control the wolves, he needs to control himself.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: Say it once, Say it as a metaphor, say it
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: as an allegory, Say it poetically with one little piece
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: missing for you to bridge as an exercise for the reader.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: Don't fucking give me every version of the way this
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: could have been said, just spliced together. It's try hard.
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: It's it's how much can I change about my surroundings?
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: It's just like he knows, this parent knows he can
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: change the things around him.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's asking for I mean, sometimes it's good to
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: go back to the basics and ask your teacher to
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: just really refresh your memory on how the basic mechanics work. Again,
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: expectation and memory are weird plastic things. But yeah, it
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: also feels like learning regression in this case, rather than
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: now that I understand that this balance is different, can
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: we go back to the top and start over? Like
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: that would be one thing. But instead he's just like,
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: can I change my clothes?
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Yes, yes, Like he's been able to summon like
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: arrows for his bow for a long time and stuff
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: like that.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: Right, Well, those are D and D rules. You don't
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: question it, we.
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: Get a little bit of foreshadow, and we've got all
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: the wolves on the slopes.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: Of Dragon Mount, right, So I be so excited when
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: I saw the dragon myself like, wait, is this the chapter?
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: Like there's no way, I like flip to the end,
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: like no, no, no, no, no, We're just we're building tension for
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: that in a way that is actually effective.
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: But yeah, why are they there, except like we saw
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: it at the end of the last book.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: So it's well, yes, yeah, I mean yeah, but you know,
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: now it's kind of like a fun anticipation because you're like, oh,
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: this is gonna We're gonna see that, and you know,
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: it's kind of fun to get warmed up to it.
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: But a part of me, I almost wish that we'd
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: take in the parent chapters and put them in order
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: in place. It would have made the first book so
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: much Yeah, it would have made so much work, and
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: it would have made it much much harder to navigate
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: these chapters because the pov, like the Matt POV and
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: Elaine POV we just did, are vastly different in time
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: than the parent POV we're in right now, right even
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: though they're in the same chapter. So we couldn't have
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: even done it chapter by chapter, which is I think
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: what made it so hard. Yeah, we would have done
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: it POV by POV, and separating out POV's would have
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: been really difficult between books.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as Athlon was saying, this is the
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: symptoms of the I made a book physically too big
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: to be bound, Like we're deep in the throes of
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: the fracture lines created by that problem. And yeah, it
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: would be hard to fix.
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: Because they had to have end point for the first book,
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: so they had to move forward his epiphany when really
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: it would have fit better at the end of this book.
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: And if you just had a bunch of this parent
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: stuff in the previous book, But then you have had
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: a whole book of build up, right, which you know,
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: if you think about it as one whole book, the
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: Memory of Light, the final book is sort of the
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: Sander lance the ending, right, but can you imagine a
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: whole book of just like all the boring stuff that
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: we did in the previous book, plus all the boring
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: stuff we did in this book. As he sets everything up, now,
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: we would have.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: Been arguing for to hell with the timeline gives me some.
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: Action, right, exactly exactly exactly so, but it would have
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: been interesting. I think the podcast through it in some
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: sort of order, but I think the we would have
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: needed someone full time just to work on the logistics
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: of that. Basically, we would need like Maria Simmons.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: So then we get our first of our new leveled
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: up parent encounters with Slayer, Yes, which is fun and exciting,
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: and my love of Sanderson's action writing kicks right back in.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: I was just mad at him for having the as
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: Marcy Penn put it, that audihd like spiraling around explaining
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: yourself thing like he was just doing that, and I
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: was annoyed at him. But now a paragraph later, we're
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: going to do a really cool action sequence with Slayer
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: in the Dream, and I'm super here and excited that
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: Sanderson's at the Pentagon and it.
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: Starts with the murder of morning Light, one of the wolfs,
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: and basically she, yeah, out of existence all made it
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: so bad, just completely out of Yeah, dying in the
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: Wolf Dream is bad.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's fair. I'm going to go on
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: record saying I don't think it's fair that if a
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: wolf dies in the Wolf Dream gets booted out of
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: existence for all time. I think that's unfair. Heaven should
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: be safer, not more dangerous.
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: That's why Slayer is so bad, right, Like he's unique,
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: he's different, like this has never happened before.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: So uncool. So yeah, paren hears that there's danger and
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: decides to run headlong into it. Basically is what happens,
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: and then like it's like D and D like the
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: literal like action rounds. It happens like in just a
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: few seconds, and like a few minutes later he is
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: back where he started, being like, well that went badly,
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: Like it's really fast actually just how because physics don't
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: have to apply in the dream and travel isn't a thing,
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: and even the speed of thought is almost like faster
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: than normal. The entire encounter takes like literally two and
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: a half minutes.
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: It reminds me a lot of Logan's attack on Demondred,
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: where he like goes in attack, attack, attack, gets his
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: ass kicked, runs away, and he's like moaning on the
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: ground thirty seconds later like oh that went poorly.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: Ow yeah. Yeah. A lot of times in movies, TV,
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: comic books, the action sequence is slowed down into this
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: like big long. It takes a whole episode to get
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: through one boss fight. But like, I kind of like
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: the writing here where it's like, oh no, that actually
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: was really fast, Like it's it's a couple of pages,
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: but the character is very like cognizant of how little
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: real world time passed.
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: And that's something that I don't think Jordan did as
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: much because he would be like, and then there were
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: these sword forms, and he lists a couple of sword
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: forms and then someone would die, right Like this blow
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: by blow is very much a Sanderson way of writing.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which I love. It's like a full HD color
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: panel comics in my head. It's just amazing.
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: So we get to mention of how Slayer looks like Land,
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: so we know that's Esam, right, he's in the Esom body.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: That is Land's cousin, uncle, uncle, cousin.
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: I don't remember.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: I think they're cousins because when he talks about killing
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: his cousin, When Slayer talks about like wanting to like
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: kill his cousin in the wench, right, that's landon Ninive
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: that he was talking about, not random men, right.
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: Because I thought that Luke was Rand's cousin and Esam
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: is Land's uncle.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: Oh or is it just.
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: To the Googles, to the Google, to the Internet, which
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: keeps track of this stuff.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: We need to call in more nerds.
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so Luke is Rand's uncle.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's Rand's uncle. Okay. Luke is oh right, because
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: he's t Grain's brother.
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: And then Esam was cousin of Land, so ESM's the cousin.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: Okay, So I was right about cousins.
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: Yes, trust yourself.
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: No, that is a bad idea.
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: And so they're fighting and Param whips out his I
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: can follow you anywhere, and Slayer whips out I can
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: change the world to bind you, and is basically has
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: the world freeze him solid and use it to you know,
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: put him in place so he can shoot him with
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: his bow, and Paren dipped out and wills himself away
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: at the last minute.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really good exam. It's like in a
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: D and D campaign when you run up against a
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: boss that you're very much supposed to get more levels
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: before you face, and you're like, never mind.
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: Do a little puddle jumper. Yeah. He changed things, made
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: the dock vanish beneath me, created ropes to buy me,
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: push the water back so you can get a clear
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: shot at me.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: And I'm just like paren you have all the same
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: powers in you, Like you can make the water reappear,
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: you can breathe underwater, you can make a shield out
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: of the dock.
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: You can you can it's just a weave.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know again, it even says in the
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: paragraph like he used his newfound skill to go chasing
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: after a super dangerous character. It's like, yeah, he's not practicing.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: This is why he does the training with the nightmares
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: is so that way those kinds of thoughts are second
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: nature rather than a fully cognated process in his brain.
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: Right right, Yeah, He's he's like that person who takes
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: intro to psych and thinks they know everything about a
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: human psychology. He's like, I can photo, I can analyze everybody,
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: and then the second they start getting into actual people
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: are like, oh, I'm in over my head. Yeah.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: It's like when you take mushrooms for the first time
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: and you're like, everyone needs to take mushrooms. I'll just
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: put LSD in the water all the world's problems and
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: then you like actually pay any attention to like the
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: history of the hippie movement or how psychedelics have affected society,
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: and you're like, hmm, maybe not. Maybe I should just
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: start a hippie jam band and just try to like
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: do that instead.
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: I definitely heard people be like, dude, if we just
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: legalize marijuana, like all of our problems are going to
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: go away, because everyone's going to be stoned and they're
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: all going to get along and like everything's going to
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: be great, like and the only times I heard that,
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: and then I've heard that so many times. It turns
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: out people are still assholes.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: Well, it turns out because it fixes a lot of
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: problems of criminalization. To decriminalize the thing that people are
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: going to do anyway, but likely they I refer you
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: to all the problems in the world that existed before
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: marijuana prohibition.
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: There were no problems in the world back then. That's
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: why we want to make America great again.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: I will flip this table. I'm going to reach through
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: your computer and flip your table.
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's my favorite one. What year exactly, would you
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: like call the good old days? And would you like
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: all the policies yeah, that we're enacted back then, Because
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: the further back you go, the more you're like, well,
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: I don't want these policies. I want those policies and
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: it's like, hm hmm, yeah, I'm just going to you
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: just say the quiet part a little bit louder for
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: the people sitting right next to you, so that they
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: know what a piece of shit you are.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, seriously, who gave you a credit card? Anyway? God?
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: Anyway?
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: Hopper scolds Parent much like Brigida scolded a Lane, and
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: then says, Okay, fine, maybe I'll train you later, but
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: tonight we need to mourn the fact that a wolf
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: has been murdered by that asshole. And so Paren decides
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: that he needs to go think about all of that
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: in the real world, and we pov switched to him
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: in the Waking world.
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: I would say, Hopper decides Parent needs to think about
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: it in the real world, get the fuck out.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, for sure. But Paren you know, deliberately gets
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: out of bed and goes off to think about it
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: and talks to Alias, which is nice. It makes for
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: a good you know, debrief after this intense wolf session.
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: Totally totally Yeah, that's sort of the human perspective on
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: what the wolves are teaching him.
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because Elias has been there for longer, like he
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: hasn't engaged with the wolf dream as much, but he
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: has engaged with the being a wolf brother thing, and
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: paren just got a big level up. It would help
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: to talk through some of it with someone who gets it.
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: And Gall's following parent around and Parent's like, yeah, that's
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: probably because he's trying to avoid Bandon Chiad because they're
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: living in this tent now, which is yeah, but it's
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: a little bit of like Boomer my wife humor right
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: with my wife. Right, He's like, he finally got what
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: he wanted and now he's avoiding them.
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I can't tell if Baine and Chiad are like,
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: actually really annoying, or if Sanderson and Jordan just thought
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: they were, like, I'm really like, I want I don't
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: know how I'm trying to feel about the Gall situation,
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: because I really like Gall. I want him to be
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: a cool guy in a cool situation. And I can't
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: tell if Bane and Chiod are like actually making his
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: life worse or if the authors of the books just
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: thought it would be funnier to make it seem that way.
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: I think that's it just feels to me this whole like, oh,
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: it's worse than one wife, two wives, you know, and
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: it's just it's yeah, please. I hope I get proved
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: wrong at some point. But that's to me, the feeling
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: I get from this whole Band and Chiad situation. I
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: don't like it, no, because there was this whole thing
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: where he's pursuing one of them and he is willing
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: to get together the other one, and I would have
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: liked to see that sort of love grow between all
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: three of them in a way that was a little
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: more organic rather than yeah, I love this one and
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: I'm putting up with that one. You know, I love Chiod,
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: but I'm putting up with Bain. Seems to be sort
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: of the feeling I'm getting from his actions here.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: And it also feels like Bane and Chiad just want
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: to be together and they're like playing this game to
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: have Gall like as a piece of infrastructure or furniture
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: and always as like a second class citizen to their relationship.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: And again, I would yeah, like to see it develop
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: from a couple with a third wheel to a full
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: blown throttle where like they have a household. I don't know,
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: there's just no sense of household. There's like Bane and
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: Chiod and then there's this annoying guy Gall that I
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: guess they have to let live in the garage or whatever.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: I don't know, it's weird.
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: Well, and they don't forget they are now guy Shine
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: because they got captured and so he they're his guy Shine.
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: But then, like I think he's trying to go back
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: to that whole situation where you know, you hear these
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: stories about clan chiefs who take these women guys shine
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: and then end up kind of like being bullied into
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: marrying them within the air and stuff like that, and
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: I think he's trying to reference that kind of stuff.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: But Gall is supposed to become a clan chief in
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: the fourth age, that is from Aviander's visions and comments
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: made by wise One's way back in the day. That
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: does seem to be in his future. So yeah, I.
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: Guess, but he basically seems to take Rark's place when
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: Rark is mindfuld.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, exactly, Gall is going to be Ruark two
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: point zero. Yeah, I think you're right about it, just
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: being the boomer hummer blah.
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: A lot more of this chapter is Paren talking about
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: how he's dogged on projects. You know, it's just he's
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: rewriting stuff that we know about Paren that was written
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: back in either world he's slow to speak, he likes
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: to consider things from all the angles. He likes to
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: finish everything he starts. He doesn't like it when people
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: can't finish things. He basically he's the opposite of Adhd.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: He even has this thought like, why is it that
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: his mind works so much better when he's doing something.
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: It's like, because that's how a lot of human minds work.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: It's it's it's almost phrase like it's a failing. It's like, parent,
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: You're not a failure, You're just autistic. It's okay, but yeah,
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: it's all good thoughts, reiterated ad nauseum in a regressed voice,
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: good thoughts at their core.
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: And Chad is pointing out that like, Gall is not
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: part of the same clan as Roark, so he you know,
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: he's he's a shur Ad and Rock is a tard Ad.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: So I thought we meant replaced him in our hearts. Yes,
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: yeahs as ieo clan chief Daddy. I didn't think we
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: meant like literally in the because obviously they're from different clans.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, obviously obviously.
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: Now now the Chad has looked up and researched it
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: and put it in chat obviously obvious.
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: Now, thank you chat for keeping us honest, But in
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: my mind, I was saying like replacement urk, like in
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: our hearts, as like the ideal daddy with two wives
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: as everyone wants. You know, that's just the ideal a
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: ial clan chief situation.
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: See. And again this conversation then between Parent and Elias,
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: which to me feels like something they should have had
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: ages ago. Right, This feels like one of those things
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: that again Sanderson's going back and being like, I feel
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: like I need to fix some of the communication between
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: these characters. So I need Parent and Alias to have
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: this conversation about the wolves because they've never had it,
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: and it's so dumb that they haven't had it.
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: He's switching from saying something that's been said too many times,
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: so switching is something that should have been said a
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: long time ago. Without missing a beat, he just goes
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: from like ad nauseum to finally.
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: And topics go from gnome where he's like, you know,
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: I found a balance this moment where he says I
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: found a balance, right, which I think is the key point.
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: But essentially he's saying I found a balance. You have
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: to as well. I don't know how you're going to
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: find the balance. I don't know how I found the balance.
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: I just did find your own balance. And like the
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: fact that he says that, and then it takes Parent
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: another like huge chunk of this book to be like,
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: oh need to find a balance, and I'm just like,
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: oh my god, Like that's his big realization at the end.
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: And they literally have the exchange. So Elia says, I
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: left my life for the wolves. That doesn't mean you
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: have to. Gnome had to did he have to?
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: And that question is treated by Paren like it's rhetorical,
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: but I'm like no, but really, that is actually the
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: answer that Boundless is going to give you is that
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: he did not have to. That was a choice, Like
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: everyone's got their own balance. And Elias is literally telling
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: you that now you should wake up in the morning
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: with this revelation. You should go to sleep thinking about
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: this and wake up in the morning having finally put
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: it all together. Like that's how this should have gone.
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we didn't need the whole null confrontation thing that
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: he ended up doing, or we.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: Just needed him to have a conversation with Boundless a
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: little bit sooner under slightly less Dire circumstances. Yeah, we
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: just needed him to interrogate Elias one more time about
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: what makes that balance feel? Right? Okay, let me just
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: approach this as an autism coach. Okay, how do you
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: find the balance you feel where there's relief in your body,
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: where the tension drops out of your chest, and that
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: is the accommodation that you need to live your life? Paren, Okay,
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: everyone else can take that advice too, But like literally,
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: that's what parent needs to learn, is that, like, the
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: thing that makes you feel good is what will be
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: balanced for you. You can't fight it. You can't change
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: what makes a balance. You just need to discover it.
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: And I wish that Elias had some insight on that,
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: but I do Paren listen.
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: To me, Well, thanks, I guess that means I'm quitting
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: my job.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, that is generally what that advice will get you
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: is unrealistic decisions that don't actually work up because capitalism
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: is a bitch, But it really would have worked here
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: for Paren trying to figure out this whole how to
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: not go insane thing. It's like it's right there. The
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: thing that makes you tense up is not balance, and
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: the thing that makes you relax is.
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: Balance Unlis, how the whole time, you could have asked
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: him from the very beginning instead of talking to an,
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: I said, I talk to the other wolf brother, who's
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: clearly doing fine. And I think there is a moment
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: where he talks to him and Alies basically says, I
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: don't know back in the early books.
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: But yeah, then he just reiterates it here, and he
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: also reiterates here that the I said, I tried to
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: gentle him and that was kind of what made him snap.
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: And I just don't understand why that would be a
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: problem for a man who can't channel. Like, they throw
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: some weaves on you, nothing happens, You laugh at them, like,
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: I don't see why you have to kill wards and
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: run away.
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: Because when the police arrest you, you run away, even
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: if you don't think that. I don't know. It's just
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: he didn't want to be taken, he didn't want to
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: be detained. He's a sovereign citizen, okay.
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: I just I feel like killing Warters when what they
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: were going to try to do to you was empirically
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: not going to hurt you, is just not in scale.
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: He said he didn't think it would, but at the time.
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: He didn't know.
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: You know, I wish that there was a little bit
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: more conversation about that instead of just reiterating it.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: In my head canon, there was some dark friendery going on,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: and if he'd been taken, they would have made sure
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: he didn't survive.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, this was in the period of the vileness, wasn't it.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: This is like specifically like right around that period, right,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: because we see him before, we see him before, and
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: that's like a year or less before the vileness of
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: Oh no, yeah, so he would have had a sense that,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: like any man taken into their custody isn't coming out alive. Okay, no,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: fair enough, fair enough, that's reasonable.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: And they're taking down lucky people, they're taking down special people,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: right that they're taking that because the dragon has been
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: reborn and they're trying to And the only hint that
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: they have is channelers are considered lucky or special or different.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: Right, so the odds of dying, regardless of your channeling ability,
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: were higher than ever before in the last three thousand
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: years of a questionable track record. Oh okay, no, that's fair,
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: that's fair. He did not know that then dealing with
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: him was going to be it because if it had
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: been a definitely non lethal, like we just need to
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: like take you in and like do an interview and
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: like try to apply some wads for you, it'll be
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: like a two hour in and out doctor appointment. There's
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: no need to kill anyone over that. But that's not
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: what they were. That was not the landscape that he
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: was looking at. Now that's it. I never actually thought
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: about the timeline against the vileness, but he probably knew
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: something was up. So hmm hmm. Interesting, good good catch.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: Get mars Pan's sort of drawing an analogy here between
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 3: Warders and Elias and the White Cloaks and paren the
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: people you had to slay when you discovered your powers
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: to get away and live your life.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: It's just if a group source with wheel slightly wolfy
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: be on your guard.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, you don't want to get the ww involved,
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: because then you know, then you get the WWE the
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 3: ww F. Yeah, you don't want that. You don't want that.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: That's the world wide Life so bad they just lose
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: you and junk mail with cute animals on it, like.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: The wolf Pack. I mean, I don't know, this is
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: all sorts of things going.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: On, And yeah, We sort of end the chapter with
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: Elias and Paren reiterating for the umpteenth time that Paren
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: feels weird about this whole White Cloak situation, and he's
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: having weird visions in his dreams that make him feel
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: like this is extra wrong and extra bad.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: Which is what the visions are for, right, The visions
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: are warning him to save the White Cloaks basically.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, he even has this great thought which I
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: think shows his leadership earlier, where he's just like, we
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: need those swords from both sides for the battle. It
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: is like he's already thinking of the White Cloaks as
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: his own, you know.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: And also he doesn't want to lose the people he's
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: going to lose if he confronts them, right, He's like that,
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: no matter how minor it is, and how like, honestly,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: I think with the long Bows and the Channelers it
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: would be almost they might like lose one person to
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: a straight arrow. Like, I really just don't think the
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: White Cloaks are a threat in any way, shape or
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: form to Parent's army.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: Not with unhidden channelers.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. But that's why parents. One of the
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: reasons that Parent's a good leader is that he considers
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: unnecessary risk to even one of his people to be
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: a thing worth avoiding. He's like, is it necessary that
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: I risk anyone at all? And he doesn't really think so.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: But also, the White Cloaks are insisting, so we're going
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: to spend another fourteen thousand fucking chapters worrying about it
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: before we ultimately don't actually attack them.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: And attack the Trollis and the other you know, yeah, it.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: Hey, how long there is between here and there? There's
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: so much back and forth, and then we still have
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: the trial to get through. And it's just like the
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: battle itself is great and that that is going to
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: be fun.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: But like, and the idea of the trial of having
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 3: more gasee be discovered and be the person who moderates
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: it fantastic. Love that idea.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: Do it in like a chapter, maybe two. I'll give
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: you two chapters. You can have one chapter break as
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: a treat not seventy five chapter breaks.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: I just the parents stuff could have been edited way
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: down and included way earlier. That's my opinion on it.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: I don't necessarily think we needed three books, sacrileged to
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: say or not even that we didn't need three books
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: as like so much as we could have spent more
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: time on other things in those three books.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah we needed we needed three books.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 3: We needed three books, but the parents stuff took up
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 3: way too much of it. And yeah, just the repetition, right,
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: Like there was there's more side characters, there's more more
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 3: low gained stuff, more forsaken stuff. Right. I would have
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 3: loved to see more of what the Dark Friends are doing. Right,
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: I feel like we were in this critical stage where
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: we're finally getting to see the battle between the two sides,
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 3: and both sides are out and existing, and like, I
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: feel like we as the books go on, we get
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 3: more and more and more dark Friend povs, because in
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: the first few books, dark Friends are this mysterious thing
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: that like could or could not exist, right, But as
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: we go on, we're getting much more forsaken povs, dark
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 3: friend povs, and I just don't feel like we get
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: a lot of that in these books. It's just like
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 3: I almost think a better way to build tension would
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: have been and show what's happening on the other side.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: You know, we're building up these armies, Show where the
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 3: Trock Armies are building up. Show is Shamael putting together
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: his forces. Show more of you know, Millie Skin and
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: the Dreadlords, you know, like that would have been great
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 3: page filler stuff.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: No, we need parent naval gazing to the point of
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: literally driving us all bonkers, you.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 3: Know, and if anything else, a little more shan Chan content.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 3: I never thought I'd ask for that, But like you know,
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: I would have loved to see Matt and Tuon have
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 3: a little more, you know, when he goes back and
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: he gets up in the robes and everything. I would
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: have loved to see him maybe make more changes the
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 3: empire in order to get them to bring them to battle.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: Yep. But these are the books we got.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 3: These are the books we got. Yeah. No, And as
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 3: much as we are complaining about them, I am infinitely
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 3: grateful that he sat down and wrote them. I think
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: he did a better job, and that the kind of
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: book it was is better suited for his writing style, right,
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 3: because it's got the battles, it's got the like you said,
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: the majestic three D scenes where you get to see
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 3: it all. I think that's really really well done. But god,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: you know, part of me still wishes Jordan had been
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: there to finish them. Off. Yeah, and Knife of Dreams
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: is such a good book, right, and you can see
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: that he is gathering for the finish in Knife of Dreams.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: So I don't believe anyone who says, oh, he wouldn't
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: have finished it. He was just going to write more
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: and more and more. I was like, no, look at
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 3: what Knife of Dreams was doing. Like he was there,
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: he was ready to finish these books.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, he was not going to pull a Game
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: of Thrones, no Martin on us at all. He did
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: the thing he always said on the back of his
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: dust jacket was that he was going to continue writing
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: until they nailed his coffin shut. He did do that.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 3: He did do that. That was quite literally. I just
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 3: don't think that he thought that would be in his fifties.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: I think he thought that would be in his seventies, eighties, nineties, right.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: Which is what we all deserved.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I God, I would have killed for him
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 3: to finish this ending and then write a bunch of
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 3: sequels that I thought were terrible and could criticize. To
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: live in that world, that world where Robert Jordan is
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 3: still pumping out terrible, terrible outrigger.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: I want that world. I want to be mad at
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: him for not just letting a dead horse lie already,
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: let it go it I got as much as I
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: do love these books and what Sanderson did with them.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: If I could switch worlds, I would, oh, well, I.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 3: Just want to reach into the bookstore in the other
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: world and just be like ooint, let me get those
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 3: finished copies and all right.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: But Alas, do you want to do a readout?
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: Hya? You? I guess I can read this hut. Also,
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 3: this is Alias quote. I'll start with his list quote
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: that makes absolutely what okay? You don't understand the Lias.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 3: It's nothing, Elias said, I had forgotten that it could
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: be nice to be around people for a change. I
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: don't know how long I can stay though. The last
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: hunt is almost here. But Elias, you don't want to
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 3: be around people ever? You hate people?
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: I miss beer. Yeah, that definitely feels like it Isn't
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: civilization's a nice you weird feral people. Don't you want
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: to come back to good civilization where we have clean,
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: tucked in shirts. Don't you feel bad having an untrimmed beard?
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: You fucking weirdo feral people. That is kind of how
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: that line feels to me.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 3: It does.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: As a feral person, I resent it.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 3: But he's a wolf. He feels uncomfortable around people that
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 3: is well established.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe if he said, like, your camp is easier
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: to be around than any other collection of two legs
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: I've been in in twenty years, then I would be like, okay, cool.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: Paren can even make friendly with the wolf brothers. But yeah,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: just oh I miss peopils. No he doesn't.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 3: No, Well, Elias is the same uncomfortable civilization that a
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: wolf is. Right, he is a wild creature in that way.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: That's his his balance is much wilder than parents.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's really close to the wolves that thought maybe
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: hanging out with people would be worth their time. Like
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: that's about his balance is the wolf that was like, eh,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: maybe I'll take some snacks, Maybe I'll allow a few headpets.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: Paren looked up at the sky again that it is
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: passed the word on to Tam and the others. For me,
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 3: I've made my decision. The White Cloaks have picked a
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 3: place to fight. I've decided to go ahead and meet
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 3: them tomorrow. All right, Elias said, you don't smell like
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 3: you want to do it, though it needs to be done.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 3: Paren said, and that's that everyone wants him to be
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 3: a lord. Well, this was the sort of thing lords did,
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: make decisions that nobody wanted to make. It would still
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 3: sicken him to give the order. He'd seen a vision
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 3: of those wolves running sheep toward a beast. It seemed
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 3: to him that maybe that's what he was doing, running
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 3: the white cloaks towards destruction. They certainly wore the color
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 3: of sheep's wool. But what to make of the vision
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 3: of Fayel and the others approaching a cliff? Elias moved off,
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 3: leaving Paren with the axe still on his shoulder. He
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 3: felt as if he hadn't been chopping logs but bodies. Also,
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 3: can we just talk about the fact that he fucking
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 3: picks up an axe and starts using it to chop wood,
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 3: and like, it's not really a dress, it's.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: A different ex design.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 3: No, he threw away the fucking axe. You cannot have
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 3: him pick up another axe just to do chores because
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 3: you want him to tropple it. Oh my god, I
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 3: forgot to make a big thing about this earlier. But no, no,
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 3: bad Sanderson, you do not get him to pick up
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: an axe and not deal with the emotional trauma of
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 3: cutting off a man's hand with an axe, and really, well,
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: it's a tool, it's not a battle axe. Therefore no, Yeah,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 3: that's the whole point of his thing is the hammer
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 3: is a tool, and the axe is a weapon, and
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 3: only a weapon. And the second you use an axe
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 3: as a tool, you're undercutting the whole point of the drug.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 3: I don't like it.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: Yep, I am nodding so hard. I'm nodding so hard.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: It's so disrespectful to how much tortured agonizing you forced
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: us to read about how important the axe is for
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: him to just say, oh, it's a different design act,
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: so I have no trauma at all. It's like what what? Yeah? No,
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: much nodding, much nodding, very annoy much nod Also, I
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: kind of liked the line about he hadn't you know,
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: the hadn't been chopping logs but bodies, but also some
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: of whose chopped logs? I just didn't I get stuck
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: in the literalism of that, and like, I don't think
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: chopping meat is at all like chopping cured firewood. It's
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: just me, but I want this line to be a banger.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: But instead of just get really.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 3: Stuck bodies and logs don't chop the same way.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: They really don't. I've only ever chopped the one, to
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: be clear, but like I can extrapolate the different textures.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 3: I gutted a fish for the first time the other
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: day yesterday. Yeah, I had a friend of mine say
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: they got to basically were free whole fish someone gave them,
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 3: which was a giant salmon, and so they were like,
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 3: I do not know how to gut this. I do
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 3: not know what to do with it or how to
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 3: cook it and how to break it down. So I
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 3: was like, well, I can watch a YouTube video and
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: figure it out. So yeah, and I just like the
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: cutting into the body of the fish was actually a
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 3: little bit of a first, Like making that initial slit
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: very much felt like cutting into a body, and that
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: was probably the most out of all the grossness. And
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: like the pulling out the guts and chopping off the
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 3: head and undoing the gills and butterflying the fish, none
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 3: of that bothered me, except the initial cut into the
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: body cavity, because it very much felt like cutting into
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 3: a body cavity.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: It hadn't been broken down into something recognizable as like
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: a kitchen thing. It was still like a nature thing
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: and animal.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 3: It was still an animal that I was cutting off,
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 3: you know, and shocking. I was shocked by how much
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 3: force it took to actually open up that body cavity
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 3: as well, you know how much the muscle resisted.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, it looks one way in brief cutaway in
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: movie type situations. It's very much a different thing to
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: actually deal with that sort of thing in real life.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: I have not done it much myself, but I've been
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: present for it several times and seeing people go through that, like, wow,
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: this is way harder than I thought. Like, I've seen
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: the look on someone's face a couple of times going
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: through that thought process.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 3: And yeah, but then once you penetrate, like how then
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 3: easy it is to then continue to cut right and
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 3: how Yeah, it's.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: It's nothing like whittling. I have done a lot of whittling.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: It's nothing like that.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's soft and squishy until you're into it, and
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 3: then it's fairly easy to tear through. But then there
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 3: are bones, right, and so then there's this whole other
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 3: structure whereas woods just would it's all pretty much throughout.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 3: Usually some what is.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: More splintery and ridiculous to work with than others. But yeah,
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: it's not nearly as variable as a meat suit. Well
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: with do you live in the Pacific Northwest life land
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: at Pool? You know, pretty wild and fairly out here.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 3: I mean I did live also on the border of
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 3: West Virginia and Virginia, and there was a lot of
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 3: hunting going on out there, but I did not. I
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 3: do not have the hunter's experience of cutting open deer
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: and gutting deer and sort of that. That's something that's
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 3: never been on my plate, which I'm kind of happy about.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 3: But I'm sure anyone out there who's hunting is like
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 3: rolling their eyes.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: In my experience here, most of the experience I have
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: is in helping people deal with butchering backyard chickens. That's
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: most of the experience. I have not actually done the work,
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: but I have been handing tools and providing water and
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: just being the support person around that process. But those
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: were chickens we had raised, rather than wild animals we
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: had acquired.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 3: I had a job where I had to put chickens
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 3: to sleep at two weeks old. Mmmm. They were being
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 3: used for testing and so they were exposed, you know, blind.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 3: It was a blind study. So some of them were
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 3: exposed to lead in the egg and some of them weren't.
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 3: And then they hatched, and we did some tests on
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 3: them for the first two weeks, and then they were
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 3: full of lead or not depending on which ones you
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 3: didn't know. So they basically had to be put to
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 3: sleep and disposed of as biomedical toxic waste full of
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 3: heavy metals.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 3: And so I had a protocol where I basically would
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 3: inject a poison of some kind into the livers of
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 3: the baby of the two weeks old baby chicks to
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 3: put them down.
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's nicer than the meat grinder method that
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: they use for other parts of chicken industrial stuff.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, I mean it was lab protocol rather than
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 3: industrial protocol. Right, so it had a lot of you know,
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 3: ethical oversight and stuff like that, yet no lead and
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 3: chickens they did not get through. They they were killed
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 3: at two weeks old. None of them lived longer than that.
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 3: I think maybe we had I think we had a
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 3: smaller group that lived the six weeks old for some
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 3: follow up studies. But they were very carefully disposed of
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 3: animal testing then raised very you know, they had a
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 3: nice life for the two weeks, but.
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: The ones that weren't full of lead anyway was having
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: a better time.
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 3: I would imagine, Yeah, it's interesting, I can go into
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 3: the study a little bit, but it's chickens. Baby chickens
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 3: peep at a very predictable rate, so you can actually
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 3: measure the frequency at which baby chickens peep just like
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 3: genetically their program to essentially be little homing beacons for
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 3: their mother. They just peep, peep, peep, peep, and then
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 3: you can distract them and they'll stop peeping for a
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 3: second and look at what you're distracting them with. Right,
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 3: So you usually just play noise or you do something,
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 3: flash something at them, and they'll stop peeping and look
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 3: around and be like, what the what the fuck was that?
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 3: And when they forget about it, they'll go back to peeping.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 3: Chickens with ADHD and exposure to lead basically have symptoms
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 3: of ADHD and they will stop looking around and they
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 3: will go back to peeping much faster. And so you
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 3: can actually very easily quantify the level of exposure with
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 3: the level of ADHD based on the peep frequency.
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: Wow, that makes sense, And.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 3: Then that was used to correlate like what level of
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 3: exposure actually causes changes and then you can sort of
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 3: create laws around exposure levels in right public, you know.
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 3: And the longer I worked on that, the more I
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 3: realized that there is no safe leisure. Basically, the lower
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 3: level they would test, the more effect they would find. Right,
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 3: there is just no safe level of lead exposure. Like,
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 3: it's bad for you. Lead is bad.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: The less there was, the more of an effect.
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 3: No, the less there, it didn't matter how low you went,
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 3: there was always an effect.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: Okay, okay, yeah, I was just like, it's not like
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: a homeopathy.
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 3: No no, no, no no no no no, no no no.
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 3: But it didn't really matter how low you went with
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 3: the lead exposure. There was always some measurable effect.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's one of those things that has, as far
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: as we can tell, literally no redeeming qualities or neutral effects.
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 2: It's just bad in a way that most things are complicated,
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: Most things have context and facets and compounding. Fact. No,
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: lead is just bad. It's just bad. That's it. That's
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: the end of the statement. It's bad.
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 3: And essentially to say levels are set by these the
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 3: levels at which we're able to detect changes in behavior, right,
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 3: Like it's the level of our testing that affects the
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 3: amount that we have, not necessarily the amount that it affects.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 2: Us, right, right, every time we refine our sensitivity, we
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: continue to discover that there's a problem.
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 3: There's still a problem even at that level. Yeah. So, yeah,
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 3: it's leads bad. And we exposed an entire generation to it,
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 3: or multiple generations to it through leaded gasoline and leaded
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 3: paint and leaded pipes.
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, far too much lead for comfort. And I mean,
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: in fairness, we've been doing this for a long time,
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: because you're a weekly reminder that I can never stop
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: thinking about the Roman Empire. They knew that lead pipes
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: were not great. They knew that lead powder in their
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: wine was not great. They knew that lead in their
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: cosmetics was not great. They associated the symptoms of lead
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 2: poisoning with the God who was associated with lead, like
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 2: they knew, But wine tasted like shit, and let is sweet,
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: and makeup didn't have anti caking agents or whatever, and
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: lead is a good binding agent. And you know so,
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: in fairness, our civilization has for thousands of years been
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 2: affected by powerful people with far too much lead in
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: their blood.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 3: Well, and wasn't there the whole thing where you have
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 3: like pewter plates and pewters made with lead, and so
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 3: people would you know, only rich people had pewter plates
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 3: and or silver plates. I don't remember exactly what the
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 3: combination was, but they and then which was fine until
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 3: tomatoes were imported in England and tomatoes are and all
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 3: of a sudden, all this city is eating away at
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 3: the lead and it's getting into the food and people
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 3: who were eating safely off these plates are getting lead poisoning. Right.
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: People even can get lead poisoning from game that has
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: too much lead like bullets in it. Like vultures can
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: die of lead poisoning if they eat too much carrion
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: that has lead bullets in it. Like we're just dumping
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: lead in the water as fishing sinkers and in the
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 2: ground as bullets, and just it's fine, it's fine, We're fine.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 3: Well, but lead in a way is such a useful metal, right,
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 3: that's the problem, because it is it is very non corrosive. Right,
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 3: it's as almost as stable as something like gold, while
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 3: being far far more common in terms of like it's
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 3: you can use it for pipes and it's not going
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 3: to erode away.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, easy to work, long lasting.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, easily malluable. Right. Yeah.
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: It doesn't really react with a lot of things. It's
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: not like it does. All it reacts with is life. Right,
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: It's very bad for biological materials, but it works fine
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: with whatever building materials you want to put it with.
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: Lead is like legos, fun to use, just don't eat it,
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: except you have to use gloves like with lead in
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: a way that you don't have to with legos.
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 3: Same thing with asbestos, where it's like asbestos is incredibly
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 3: helpful at fireproofing things, and like it has all these
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 3: useful properties. That's why it was you so widespread. It
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 3: just also gets in your lungs and causes you to
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 3: die a horrible, horrible.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: Death, right right. Yeah, it's about use case, it's about context.
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 2: It's about keeping things in their lane and being safe
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: about your risk assessment and what happens in fifty years
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 2: when we pull these walls apart.
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 3: It's why stuff like it's in a lot of ways
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 3: why progress in society has to be slow. It's like,
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 3: we want to be faster than this, but you have
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 3: to do the testing, you have to check things out,
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 3: you have to find out the long term effects. Right,
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 3: what happens when you make everything out of plastic? Will
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 3: you end up with microplastics and all of your food
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 3: and fish and animals and body tissue? And what does
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 3: that mean?
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: We don't know yet, right, And it's like there's that
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 2: fun little aphorism. You know, regulations are written in blood,
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: which is, you know, on the one hand, as searing
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: indictment of you know, our capitalist mofest break through society,
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: but also you don't know what you don't know, Like
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: sometimes regulations are written in blood because we just didn't
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: know that that was a thing we needed to like
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: figure out until a bunch of people died. I was like, oh,
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: that's bad.
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: Actually, yeah, apparently the handedness of a certain drug can
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 3: affect babies in uterow.
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: Right, right, that was not necessary. I mean, you know,
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: there's usually capitalismst of. I'm not letting capitalism off the hook.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying, like, we've discovered a lot of things
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: the hard way, like genuinely discovered things the hard way,
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 2: not because we were deliberately cutting corners, but just because
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: we didn't know what we didn't know. Marie Curie I know, right, like, yeah,
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: capitalism didn't drive her to be saturated in radioactive dust, right,
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: Like that was her scientific curiosity and lack of knowing
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: about how radiation worked.
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 3: That Yeah, all right, well, and I think on that
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 3: happy note, we are done with this chapter. Is there
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 3: anything else you wanted to cover?
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 2: I think you said we had patreons, but clearly we
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: did not prepare for that.
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 3: We did not prepare for that. Yeah, maybe we can
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 3: get that on the next next episode.
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 3: I've seen a few names come through, so I wanted
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 3: to get out and get out there and thank folks
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 3: before they had to wait too long.
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't think I've got anything else. I don't
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: have any notes. I do know that I have notes
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: for our other project that we're about to go record.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: So yeah, let's turn this recording off and get the
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: hell out of here.
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 3: Bye bye, everybody.
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 1:23:57
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• 1:23:59
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• 1:24:03
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• 1:24:07
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• 1:24:09
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