Latest / Tiger Territory: A Detroit Tigers Podcast / Have the Tigers raised the white flag on their season?

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Have the Tigers raised the white flag on their season? · Tiger Territory: A Detroit Tigers Podcast

0:09
Speaker 1: And welcome in to another episode of Tiger Territory, part
0:12
Speaker 1: of the Fowl Territory Network, Detroit Tigers podcast. I'm Kieran Seckley.
0:16
Speaker 1: With me, as always, a man who is not, nor
0:19
Speaker 1: has he ever claimed to be, a member of the
0:22
Speaker 1: San Francisco 49ers. He is Cody Stavenhagen. How are we doing?
0:26
Speaker 2: Doing all right. I'm glad I don't have to practice
0:28
Speaker 2: next to a nuclear substation either. Speaking of, I don't know,
0:35
Speaker 2: is the Tigers dealing with something radioactive? Because what a
0:38
Speaker 2: weird year this has been we've said that a million
0:40
Speaker 2: times with a lot of ups and downs and peaks
0:45
Speaker 2: and valleys and somehow after all we have been through
0:48
Speaker 2: it feels like we've hit a new low the past
0:51
Speaker 2: two nights because you look up and here we are
0:54
Speaker 2: the tigers have lost 14 of 17 they got thumped
0:56
Speaker 2: 11 to 1 and 15 to 2 a season that
1:02
Speaker 2: was already hanging by a thread, now is starting to
1:05
Speaker 2: feel a lot more like all but officially over, you're
1:08
Speaker 2: playing the most rookies you've played since 2010, in terms
1:13
Speaker 2: of position players, it's getting weird, it's getting bad, again,
1:18
Speaker 2: maybe it's a little too reactionary recording right after a
1:22
Speaker 2: 15-2 game that was sloppy on a lot of different levels,
1:25
Speaker 2: but I just keep coming back to, I don't know, man, like,
1:28
Speaker 2: there are going to be some silver linings and all that,
1:31
Speaker 2: but the season was just not supposed to be this way,
1:34
Speaker 2: it's not fun going into September feeling like this is
1:37
Speaker 2: complete development mode, feeling like this is a wash, feeling
1:41
Speaker 2: like you're looking for silver linings, this was supposed to
1:44
Speaker 2: be a competitive season, and sometimes I wonder, I don't know,
1:47
Speaker 2: did we overrate the Tigers, right, the projection system still
1:50
Speaker 2: had them as what, an 84-ish win team or something
1:54
Speaker 2: like that before they signed Fromber, and They signed one guy,
1:57
Speaker 2: and we all, myself included, I think maybe went a
2:00
Speaker 2: little too far with that. But I still would have
2:04
Speaker 2: said I didn't ever picture the bottom falling out the
2:08
Speaker 2: way it has. With a team with some good talent,
2:12
Speaker 2: coming off back-to-back playoff runs, playing in a weak division,
2:15
Speaker 2: having spent some money, I didn't see a world where
2:18
Speaker 2: they entered September starting John Peck at shortstop. But that's
2:23
Speaker 2: where we're at.
2:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's difficult, and we're going to do our best
2:29
Speaker 1: here to get as much of a big-picture lens across
2:36
Speaker 1: while still reacting to the micro, which was just like...
2:40
Speaker 1: I don't know. Can I use the word pathetic? Of
2:44
Speaker 1: course you can use the word pathetic.
2:46
Speaker 2: It was terrible.
2:47
Speaker 1: Because you said a lot of analogies with roller coasters
2:52
Speaker 1: and hills and valleys, and one of the things that
2:54
Speaker 1: I've always maintained... is that, you know, eventually, with those
2:59
Speaker 1: hills and those valleys, the other metaphor is water tends
3:02
Speaker 1: to find its level. And I don't, I mean, obviously
3:06
Speaker 1: it will at some point, but I don't know what
3:08
Speaker 1: that level is. And even at my worst thoughts, I
3:11
Speaker 1: thought it was something better than just kind of... I
3:18
Speaker 1: don't want to say laying down, Cody. I don't want
3:20
Speaker 1: to say that, but I don't know, like, with the
3:23
Speaker 1: mental errors that we saw these past two days, it's
3:28
Speaker 1: obviously not a cohesive element showing of baseball that we
3:35
Speaker 1: saw these past two days. And the thing is, you
3:39
Speaker 1: can bring up injuries, you can bring up rookies and
3:41
Speaker 1: all this stuff, but now that stuff is starting to
3:45
Speaker 1: triculate into the dudes that were supposed to be the
3:49
Speaker 1: most reliable. So let's just go to Tuesday. Dylan Dingler has...
3:55
Speaker 1: a day one of spring training throwing error right on the,
4:01
Speaker 1: you know, on the rundown there. All right.
4:02
Speaker 2: That's not day one of spring training. That's day one
4:04
Speaker 2: of third grade.
4:08
Speaker 1: There you go. And then, and then, you know, Gleyber Torres,
4:11
Speaker 1: I don't think they were either called as errors, but
4:13
Speaker 1: he did let two, he had let two balls go
4:16
Speaker 1: underneath his glove. And then obviously like, you know, there
4:19
Speaker 1: was a, a ball up the middle there. It's also
4:21
Speaker 1: not an error, but clearly an instant, instant of, Peck
4:25
Speaker 1: and him not having ever played together about, you know,
4:28
Speaker 1: whose ball is what and, you know, blah, blah, blah.
4:30
Speaker 1: And even Javi playing in right field. Is that, was
4:33
Speaker 1: that his first start in right field? Is that?
4:35
Speaker 2: Yes.
4:36
Speaker 1: First, first start in right field. So again, I'm not
4:39
Speaker 1: killing them or whatever, but that, you know, has a
4:41
Speaker 1: sliding catch opportunity that ball goes underneath his glove. You know,
4:45
Speaker 1: like these are, these are mental mistakes and, and, and
4:48
Speaker 1: plays that we expect these guys to make. And then
4:52
Speaker 1: you can throw in Kevin McGonigal on Monday and, having,
4:55
Speaker 1: I believe, two errors. I don't know if he was
4:57
Speaker 1: called for two errors, but he basically had two errors.
5:00
Speaker 1: And Ha-Yoo Lee having an error as well. Now, obviously,
5:02
Speaker 1: Lee's not in the category of those guys. I understand that. But, like,
5:06
Speaker 1: it just felt like a very tired Detroit Tigers team.
5:11
Speaker 1: And I think, to just throw out another analogy, as
5:15
Speaker 1: we're recording this late on a Tuesday night, like, we
5:20
Speaker 1: use the word hangover. on our last episode in regards
5:25
Speaker 1: to the school thing and like just the lead up and,
5:28
Speaker 1: and you know, everything like that. And to further that,
5:33
Speaker 1: it's like back in the day, the hangovers used to
5:35
Speaker 1: last a couple hours. Then you bounce back, have some
5:37
Speaker 1: McDonald's and you're good to go. I mean, I can't
5:40
Speaker 1: speak for everybody, but that's how your boy used to
5:41
Speaker 1: do it. Now it takes me about half a day,
5:45
Speaker 1: maybe more to get to that same level. And that's
5:47
Speaker 1: what we saw.
5:48
Speaker 2: I'm already on to like day and.
5:52
Speaker 1: A half. That's what we're seeing right now. This almost
5:54
Speaker 1: feels like an extension of the emotional hangover that we've
5:58
Speaker 1: seen from this team as they tried to climb out
6:00
Speaker 1: of that May hole. And maybe we should have foreseen
6:05
Speaker 1: this a little bit more and not gotten caught up
6:07
Speaker 1: in the rise of what we saw June 1 and on.
6:12
Speaker 1: Maybe that's it. I don't know.
6:14
Speaker 2: No, I don't think it was crazy to, like the A.J.
6:17
Speaker 2: Hinch thing he said 80 times, we're a good team
6:19
Speaker 2: with a bad record. I don't think that was ever
6:22
Speaker 2: factually wrong. But the team the Tigers are playing now
6:26
Speaker 2: is not the team they were playing even in July.
6:31
Speaker 2: I've heard this from some people in the game. You
6:35
Speaker 2: can't fool the players. The players know what's going on
6:38
Speaker 2: and there's an emotional impact to the things that happen.
6:40
Speaker 2: So the Tigers made the decision to trade Casey Mize
6:44
Speaker 2: and Tarek Scooble, which is fine. And, and actually in
6:48
Speaker 2: my opinion, that was the correct choice. And they kind
6:51
Speaker 2: of said at the time, Hey, we're not raising the
6:53
Speaker 2: white flag, but the day you traded Scooble and especially
6:57
Speaker 2: then trading anyone else on top of that, because Scooble
6:59
Speaker 2: was kind of his own thing. You were kind of,
7:02
Speaker 2: you were kind of hooking up the flag to the flagpole, right?
7:04
Speaker 2: You were getting ready to hoist it up there. Um,
7:07
Speaker 2: and then you have, you know, Riley green gets injured
7:09
Speaker 2: and Dylan Zingler goes cold and a couple of things
7:11
Speaker 2: go against you. And, You start calling up kids left
7:15
Speaker 2: and right, and it feels to me like they have
7:18
Speaker 2: raised the white flag now. And so what is the
7:21
Speaker 2: impact of that on the clubhouse? Well, look, clearly the
7:25
Speaker 2: front office isn't going all in trying to win. Not
7:28
Speaker 2: only did they trade Scooble, they got no help, not
7:31
Speaker 2: even little bullpen acquisitions or whatever. So the players know that.
7:34
Speaker 2: They see that.
7:35
Speaker 1: They feel that.
7:36
Speaker 2: That has some sort of impact. And now the guys
7:39
Speaker 2: who are still there look around the room, and they're like, oh,
7:43
Speaker 2: We're kind of playing the Toledo Mudhens a little bit
7:45
Speaker 2: right now. That doesn't make you feel great when you're
7:48
Speaker 2: going out on the field. So how do you explain Dingler?
7:51
Speaker 2: I mean, not only did he make a poor throw,
7:53
Speaker 2: he probably shouldn't have thrown the ball in the first place.
7:55
Speaker 2: He probably should have ran the guy all the way back.
7:58
Speaker 2: How much of that is just a psychological trickle down
8:00
Speaker 2: from all they have gone through? That would be the
8:03
Speaker 2: closest I could come to explaining the poor play, the
8:07
Speaker 2: mental mistakes, you know, that they Have they quit on
8:10
Speaker 2: the manager? Has AJ lost the clubhouse? I don't know.
8:14
Speaker 2: I would say it's kind of amazing this team ever
8:19
Speaker 2: clawed back from May at all at the time. I
8:21
Speaker 2: was like, a lesser manager, a lesser coaching staff, that
8:24
Speaker 2: might have really snowballed. This team might have lost 100 games.
8:29
Speaker 2: And this is just kind of thinking out loud. One
8:31
Speaker 2: of the weird things about this season, Kieran, is it
8:33
Speaker 2: does feel like, at least today, September 1st, Tigers are
8:38
Speaker 2: on track for a massively disappointing season, and probably no
8:41
Speaker 2: one is going to take the fall. Scott Harris, for
8:44
Speaker 2: all his flaws and mistakes, has constructed a good farm system,
8:48
Speaker 2: and there's more talent on the way, and Chris Illich
8:50
Speaker 2: is known as very patient. If you want to know
8:53
Speaker 2: what he thinks of the people running the Tigers, well,
8:55
Speaker 2: he's interviewing them to run the Red Wings, so I
8:58
Speaker 2: don't think anyone's getting fired.
8:59
Speaker 1: A.J.
9:00
Speaker 2: Hinch, again, signed a contract extension last year. He hasn't
9:05
Speaker 2: had the great year. I can't really... like defend him
9:08
Speaker 2: a lot given how things have gone on the field,
9:11
Speaker 2: but I just don't think he's going anywhere, and if
9:15
Speaker 2: he does, do you really think you're bringing in someone better?
9:17
Speaker 2: Then you look at the coaching staff. Because of some
9:20
Speaker 2: of these front office decisions, the pitching coaches have had
9:23
Speaker 2: almost nothing to work with, and they entered this series
9:27
Speaker 2: fifth in ERA. They've actually done some good work. They
9:30
Speaker 2: can develop starters at the major league level, relievers they
9:32
Speaker 2: haven't had as much success with. I don't think they're
9:35
Speaker 2: getting fired. You know, could you move one hitting coach
9:37
Speaker 2: or I, you already fired the third base coach, but
9:40
Speaker 2: I don't think that, you know, that, that pound of
9:42
Speaker 2: flesh that people want right now today, I don't see
9:46
Speaker 2: that coming. And that's just, that's just kind of a
9:48
Speaker 2: weird thing about an already weird season. A lot of
9:53
Speaker 2: times when something like this happens, someone takes the fall,
9:56
Speaker 2: whether they deserve it or not. And with these tigers,
9:58
Speaker 2: I am kind of like, all right, uh, call that
10:02
Speaker 2: an outlier. Hope next year is better.
10:06
Speaker 1: Yeah. So that's where I'm juggling the, the, the two,
10:11
Speaker 1: the Mac, the macro and the micros is I do
10:14
Speaker 1: agree with you. I don't believe there will be a
10:16
Speaker 1: huge pound of flesh, nor, uh, Do I think right now, again,
10:21
Speaker 1: September 1st, a little bit after 11 p.m. Eastern Time,
10:26
Speaker 1: is that warranted? I still think that there's a process
10:29
Speaker 1: here that has proven to have some success. And you're
10:33
Speaker 1: going to be able to talk yourself into a lot
10:36
Speaker 1: of stuff after this season regarding coaches and even some
10:40
Speaker 1: players and decisions or whatever. AJ is not shy about
10:44
Speaker 1: shuffling things. So there will be some sort of moves like,
10:47
Speaker 1: you know, hitting coach reassigned or fired or, you know, whatever,
10:50
Speaker 1: like something like that will happen. Unfortunately, because we don't
10:53
Speaker 1: know much about these guys because they're not available or
10:55
Speaker 1: what the process is, blah, blah, blah. Like we're not,
10:58
Speaker 1: it can't be like, Oh, this guy definitely is the
11:00
Speaker 1: fault here. You know what I mean? Like it just,
11:02
Speaker 1: we just don't know, but so there will be some change,
11:05
Speaker 1: but overall philosophically and sort of like the voices of
11:09
Speaker 1: the team being Scott being, uh, being Greenberg, being AJ,
11:14
Speaker 1: being Federer, although I know Federer doesn't talk, that's not
11:17
Speaker 1: going to change. And to be honest, no, I don't
11:19
Speaker 1: want that to change either. As much as this sucked
11:23
Speaker 1: to watch these past two days, I do think a
11:25
Speaker 1: broader perspective is needed there. So that's all I'm almost
11:31
Speaker 1: comfortable saying right now without being too reactionary and sort
11:34
Speaker 1: of putting my you know, I don't really feel like
11:37
Speaker 1: pounding the table about anything right now because we're going
11:39
Speaker 1: to have plenty of time to talk about it. And
11:41
Speaker 1: obviously these two games were, let's just call them outlier
11:45
Speaker 1: about liars, I think is a, is hopefully a good
11:48
Speaker 1: way to put it. All right, Cody, there's not much
11:52
Speaker 1: to look forward to right now, but I tell you,
11:55
Speaker 1: I am looking forward to eventually Max Anderson making his
11:59
Speaker 1: major league debut. I'm putting in the call. Which is
12:06
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13:09
Speaker 1: all right well obviously well i hope we will have
13:13
Speaker 1: time to talk about max anderson and you know him
13:15
Speaker 1: getting his shot here if you're gonna have all these
13:17
Speaker 1: toledo mud hens playing major league baseball uh we did
13:20
Speaker 1: see john peck he you know let's talk about welcome
13:24
Speaker 1: to the big leagues uh he's not not great run
13:28
Speaker 1: differential in his major league career obviously nothing uh Nothing
13:32
Speaker 1: to do with him. Nice to see a Major League
13:34
Speaker 1: debut in the family and all that stuff. As much
13:36
Speaker 1: as the games suck, those moments are still priceless. Did
13:39
Speaker 1: get on base. I was wondering if they were going
13:41
Speaker 1: to just kind of gift him the Major League hit there,
13:45
Speaker 1: but not to be. But we did get clarity on
13:50
Speaker 1: why Cody, he got the call. And I think we
13:53
Speaker 1: sort of anticipated this, but now we can say it
13:55
Speaker 1: with more certainty. It's a shortstop thing. It's a help
14:00
Speaker 1: Kevin McGonigal get off his feet a little bit thing. And,
14:04
Speaker 1: and that's why Peck gets the, the jolt, I guess.
14:09
Speaker 1: I don't want to say he jumped anybody, but the
14:11
Speaker 1: jolt to, to get the call. So is that, is
14:13
Speaker 1: that like the way we're looking at things now?
14:15
Speaker 2: I mean, that's how we're looking at it. I still
14:19
Speaker 2: don't understand it. And again, congratulations to John Peck. Again,
14:23
Speaker 2: deserve this played really well this year. Even as strange
14:28
Speaker 2: as those games were, you know, Family makes the trip,
14:31
Speaker 2: gets to play in the Big Lease. Congrats to John Peck.
14:33
Speaker 2: Hope he goes on to have a long career. Now,
14:35
Speaker 2: in terms of this, I still don't really get it.
14:37
Speaker 2: He's here because he can play shortstop, and A.J. Hinch said, well,
14:41
Speaker 2: Max Anderson plays on the right side of the infield,
14:44
Speaker 2: which is 75% true. He plays about roughly 75% of
14:48
Speaker 2: his games there, and another 25% at third base. You know,
14:53
Speaker 2: and A.J. talked about, hey, we have Lee, we have
14:55
Speaker 2: Glaber at second. Well, you also have Devin McGonigal and
14:58
Speaker 2: Javi Baez at shortstop. So, like, is it really that
15:02
Speaker 2: much better?
15:03
Speaker 1: I don't know.
15:04
Speaker 2: Maybe they just like the construction of that better, and
15:07
Speaker 2: Peck is, again, regarded as a very good defender. So
15:11
Speaker 2: maybe that helps things, but it seems like part of
15:13
Speaker 2: the explanation was, well, Glaber and Javi might play less
15:18
Speaker 2: because now Kevin's going to be playing third, and that's
15:22
Speaker 2: going to push Howie Lee almost to second base, and,
15:25
Speaker 2: you know, Javi... I guess if he's not playing left
15:27
Speaker 2: or right field, that doesn't really leave many places for
15:30
Speaker 2: him to play. And I don't like that.
15:33
Speaker 1: Cole Keith works in that equation as well.
15:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, gosh, Cole Keith, yeah. And it does seem like
15:38
Speaker 2: there's something, maybe a little more of a timeshare with
15:40
Speaker 2: the first base at Torque. We'll keep an eye on that.
15:43
Speaker 2: But I don't like the idea of not playing Gleyber
15:46
Speaker 2: Torres as much at any point before you are mathematically eliminated.
15:50
Speaker 2: Talking about raising the white flag, that seems like you're
15:53
Speaker 2: raising the white flag. You're not going to play this
15:55
Speaker 2: veteran guy who, Sure, he's not perfect. Maybe not aging well,
16:00
Speaker 2: but still one of your most consistent, productive, reliable hitters.
16:04
Speaker 2: You're talking you're not going to play him more so
16:06
Speaker 2: that John Peck can play? I don't really understand that.
16:12
Speaker 2: And again, I don't think that sends a good message. Clearly,
16:16
Speaker 2: you're not worried about the message you're sending. If this
16:18
Speaker 2: is what you're doing, you're flipping the page and saying, hey,
16:20
Speaker 2: we're going to get these guys to submit bats. Because
16:23
Speaker 2: we're kind of worried about 2027 now. But that feels
16:26
Speaker 2: like an aggressive page turn this early in September when
16:31
Speaker 2: technically you are not yet eliminated.
16:35
Speaker 1: Well, again, it was a blowout game, so we're not
16:37
Speaker 1: going to, like, microanalyze a lot of the moves toward
16:41
Speaker 1: the end. But Torres was lifted in this game on Tuesday. And,
16:47
Speaker 1: you know, just naturally, like, when you see that, it's like, could, like,
16:52
Speaker 1: could this be like a, a page turn? Like you said,
16:55
Speaker 1: like that was like something that kind of crossed my mind.
16:58
Speaker 1: And you know, like a lot, like a lot of times, dude,
17:01
Speaker 1: like I'm, when I'm looking at the tigers, I'm looking
17:05
Speaker 1: to see like, does, do things make sense? And do
17:09
Speaker 1: they seem to be going in a certain direction? Now
17:12
Speaker 1: you can love or hate what that, that direction is,
17:14
Speaker 1: but I still like to see like going in a
17:17
Speaker 1: certain direction. That's why, like, I didn't, And I'm not
17:21
Speaker 1: going to sit here and go back on my word
17:23
Speaker 1: of what happened at the trade deadline. I was okay
17:25
Speaker 1: with not trading Labor Taurus at that time. So I'm
17:28
Speaker 1: not going to Monday morning quarterback myself there. But times
17:32
Speaker 1: are different now than they were then. Obviously, you've lost,
17:35
Speaker 1: what was it, 14 of 17. So I'm okay with
17:40
Speaker 1: turning that page if you want to get some guys
17:44
Speaker 1: some looks and And just kind of like say like, hey,
17:49
Speaker 1: our direction now is 2027. One could argue it's already there,
17:55
Speaker 1: given the lineups that the Tigers are putting out and
17:58
Speaker 1: the lack of, I would say, urgency with some veterans
18:01
Speaker 1: on the injured list to come back. So that's my
18:08
Speaker 1: point there. Like if we're going to be doing this,
18:10
Speaker 1: like I just– If the conversation was brought to me,
18:14
Speaker 1: here's how I'll sum it up. If the conversation was
18:16
Speaker 1: brought to me and they said, hey, we're going to
18:18
Speaker 1: call up John Peck. Be like, okay, so does that
18:22
Speaker 1: mean that we're going to be doing XYZ and we're
18:25
Speaker 1: going to kind of do this youth thing and just
18:27
Speaker 1: kind of like see what happens, have some teaching moments, blah, blah, blah.
18:30
Speaker 1: It's like, no, we're still going to keep Max Anderson
18:33
Speaker 1: in Toledo. Hell, we're still going to keep Jace Young
18:37
Speaker 1: in Toledo and we're just going to kind of ride
18:41
Speaker 1: this middle ground just because I would be like, I
18:47
Speaker 1: don't know. Like I would say pick a lane. And
18:49
Speaker 1: as of right now, I'm kind of cool with the
18:51
Speaker 1: youth lane because I, I see that as I, as
18:54
Speaker 1: a direction. And, and right now I just don't feel
18:58
Speaker 1: like that. This is a synchronized direction to, to have
19:01
Speaker 1: this roster construction as is right now. So that's, that's,
19:04
Speaker 1: that's my.
19:05
Speaker 2: My thing is the trade deadline, even though I was
19:07
Speaker 2: okay with them making the trades, it still felt a
19:10
Speaker 2: little bit, like a half, like, all right, well, if
19:13
Speaker 2: you're going to trade Mize, why not trade Glaber? Why
19:16
Speaker 2: not trade Kinley? Clearly, they weren't going to get a
19:18
Speaker 2: lot for those guys, and that is part of why,
19:20
Speaker 2: but that now leads you in a scenario where you
19:23
Speaker 2: have Glaber blocking a player like Max Anderson, and now
19:25
Speaker 2: you're saying, well, we may not just, we might not
19:28
Speaker 2: play him as much so John Peck can play, like,
19:31
Speaker 2: that feels like an inconsistent process to me, and Those
19:37
Speaker 2: are things that bother me when it feels like there's
19:39
Speaker 2: maybe inconsistent thought patterns at play.
19:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't try to juggle too many things, especially when, like, the,
19:50
Speaker 1: the writing is on the wall for what this team is.
19:53
Speaker 1: I don't think you're not sacrificing this season anymore. I
19:57
Speaker 1: feel like, like the season has been sacrificed. So that's
20:01
Speaker 1: all I'll say right there. All right. Let's get to the,
20:05
Speaker 1: the pitching performances, Cody. So, you know, I know how
20:10
Speaker 1: this writing game works. You talk to some guys, you
20:14
Speaker 1: figure out some things that are going on, and you
20:17
Speaker 1: sort of anticipate what might happen next. And you try
20:21
Speaker 1: to get ahead of it, and you try to see
20:25
Speaker 1: if you can better understand it, and all these things.
20:28
Speaker 1: And that's what you did with your Jackson Jobe article.
20:30
Speaker 1: You teased it on our last episode and talked a lot.
20:33
Speaker 1: And credit to Jobe for talking about what he's going through,
20:37
Speaker 1: because he... I think we probably take it for granted
20:40
Speaker 1: a little bit. He is going through like a unique
20:44
Speaker 1: circumstance to the rest of the guys where he is
20:47
Speaker 1: the high draft pick who just came off Tommy John,
20:49
Speaker 1: who has been looked at as part of the solution
20:53
Speaker 1: for a long time in this organization, including this year.
20:56
Speaker 1: Like you talk about priors to this season. He was
20:59
Speaker 1: looked at as somebody who was going to come in
21:01
Speaker 1: and aid this pitching staff like later in the year,
21:04
Speaker 1: potentially for a playoff run. Right. That was that was
21:07
Speaker 1: what the expectation. A lot of things have gone wrong,
21:10
Speaker 1: and not a lot went right for him on Monday night.
21:14
Speaker 1: So he finishes. He does complete five innings. He gives
21:17
Speaker 1: up four earned. It was five total. Four Ks, two walks,
21:21
Speaker 1: two home runs given up, which was funny because he
21:25
Speaker 1: had a quote in there. What was it? The White
21:27
Speaker 1: Sox start? He's like, I had Ks to the home runs.
21:29
Speaker 1: I was like, well. A little bit of a case
21:32
Speaker 1: there too on Monday. So when, when, so you do
21:35
Speaker 1: all this work and you, you talk to Jackson and
21:39
Speaker 1: you talk to AJ and, and you're researching you and
21:42
Speaker 1: you're better, you're, you're pitching education. Cause you can never,
21:45
Speaker 1: you know, learn enough. And then you see like what's
21:48
Speaker 1: going on on Monday night. What's kind of going through
21:50
Speaker 1: your head. Yeah.
21:53
Speaker 2: I almost feel like you're paying as like, I wrote
21:55
Speaker 2: that cause I thought Jackson, Joe was going to go
21:57
Speaker 2: out and dominate. And that's not entirely true. I think I,
22:02
Speaker 2: you can turn your head one way and be like, man,
22:04
Speaker 2: he might put it all together. And I could just
22:06
Speaker 2: as easily have turned my head and say, this is
22:08
Speaker 2: going to continue to be a process. And it's the
22:12
Speaker 2: process that I think was most interesting to me. Like
22:15
Speaker 2: here is this uber talented pitcher tinkering with his stuff,
22:20
Speaker 2: still figuring out the right pitch mix, basically figuring out
22:22
Speaker 2: what he wants his arsenal to be. And it seems
22:26
Speaker 2: like one day it might click, but I'm not sure
22:28
Speaker 2: any of us, including Jackson Jobe, know when that day
22:33
Speaker 2: is going to be. It obviously was not Monday. In fact,
22:36
Speaker 2: we saw a lot more of the same. Didn't miss
22:40
Speaker 2: a ton of bats, 19% whiff rate overall. He did
22:43
Speaker 2: throw some nice breaking balls, but he wasn't in a
22:46
Speaker 2: lot of good counts, which it seems like hurts his
22:48
Speaker 2: breaking balls. Five innings, still walked a couple guys, 92 pitches.
22:53
Speaker 2: He wasn't pitch efficient. So I think that goes back
22:55
Speaker 2: to maybe what A.J. Hinch has kind of been trying
22:58
Speaker 2: to say, like you can tinker all you want with
22:59
Speaker 2: your stuff, you got to be in the strike zone
23:02
Speaker 2: and ahead of hitters for any of it to matter.
23:04
Speaker 2: I think after watching that outing Monday, that, that crystallized
23:08
Speaker 2: even more. And Job did talk about, you know, throwing
23:12
Speaker 2: a sinker more, hoping that can become kind of a
23:14
Speaker 2: solution to get hitters off the four seam. Well, four
23:17
Speaker 2: balls in playoff is sinker. The average exit VLO was 94.1.
23:21
Speaker 2: So even the sinker, that was a great solution. Got
23:24
Speaker 2: batted around a little bit. It goes back to kind
23:28
Speaker 2: of the original point. Like, there are two competing things
23:32
Speaker 2: happening here, and one is that it's a little bit
23:35
Speaker 2: frustrating to watch some of these Jackson-Jobe outings, mostly because
23:39
Speaker 2: he is capable of being so much better. And it's
23:43
Speaker 2: still like, I don't know, it's probably kind of remarkable
23:46
Speaker 2: that he's even pitching and going five innings right now.
23:49
Speaker 2: That is pretty close to the best case scenario of
23:52
Speaker 2: outcomes the Tigers could have hoped for when they were
23:55
Speaker 2: talking about Jobe contributing this year. He's already made what,
23:59
Speaker 2: five starts. He is pitching, and he's capable of going five,
24:03
Speaker 2: six innings, and he's doing it, and he's learning, and
24:06
Speaker 2: he's figuring things out. There is part of watching Jobe
24:09
Speaker 2: right now that does remind me of a young, right-handed
24:12
Speaker 2: version of Tarek Skrubel. The stuff is there. The execution
24:16
Speaker 2: is not. The pitch mix probably needs some more work,
24:19
Speaker 2: and we'll see what it ends up looking like. But
24:22
Speaker 2: I do think some of A.J. Hinch's comments, both before
24:24
Speaker 2: and after that outing, have been interesting. He's basically said,
24:27
Speaker 2: you know, it's a fine line between learning and improving
24:31
Speaker 2: and tinkering too much. So that's a worry with Job too,
24:35
Speaker 2: even as he learns. Because I've been around pitchers, man.
24:39
Speaker 2: Matt Boyd, Daniel Norris, some other guys who kind of
24:42
Speaker 2: always feel like they're one adjustment away. Even Casey Mize
24:45
Speaker 2: felt like that for a long time, finally kind of
24:47
Speaker 2: started to put things together. And sometimes it's just the
24:50
Speaker 2: dudes who are dogs, kind of the Scoobles, who just
24:55
Speaker 2: kind of stop thinking when they step on the mound
24:57
Speaker 2: and they go out and they let it rip. And
24:59
Speaker 2: Scooble finally learned to do that, and that's obviously what
25:02
Speaker 2: put him on another tier. So I don't know exactly
25:05
Speaker 2: what is ahead for Jackson Jobe. I can twist my
25:07
Speaker 2: head one way and be like, this guy might just
25:10
Speaker 2: lock it in one day and be an ace. And
25:11
Speaker 2: then it's like, what if he never quite gets it
25:14
Speaker 2: all together, and what does that mean? I'm not sure,
25:17
Speaker 2: but it's pretty interesting to follow the development of a
25:20
Speaker 2: guy as talented as him.
25:25
Speaker 1: Yesterday, Monday, was his 15th career start. So, like, it's
25:31
Speaker 1: not a lot. He just hasn't pitched that much in
25:32
Speaker 1: the major leagues.
25:33
Speaker 2: He's fresh off TJ. We always think these guys are
25:35
Speaker 2: going to come and be good right away, and most
25:38
Speaker 2: of the time, still, they are not.
25:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so, like, I... would almost prefer if there
25:44
Speaker 1: was a simpler menu around. If you were opening the
25:50
Speaker 1: Jackson Joe restaurant, you wouldn't have six entrees, in my opinion.
25:56
Speaker 1: You would probably try to have three. And then once
25:58
Speaker 1: you kind of get that down a little bit, maybe
26:00
Speaker 1: you can expand the menu a little bit, especially given
26:02
Speaker 1: the TJ, especially given the lack of experience, and really
26:06
Speaker 1: overall his importance to the long-term plan for this team. uh,
26:10
Speaker 1: that should not go understated.
26:12
Speaker 2: And it was interesting to hear him to talk about
26:13
Speaker 2: that too, though. Cause he's already like, yeah, I could
26:15
Speaker 2: probably add a cutter. And personally, I think a hard
26:18
Speaker 2: cutter might look real nice in that arsenal might be
26:21
Speaker 2: that thing. He can throw for it. Look at what
26:22
Speaker 2: it does for Troy Melton. He's like, yeah, I'm not
26:25
Speaker 2: going to do that yet. Cause I'm still trying to
26:26
Speaker 2: get the feel back for everything. And I know the importance,
26:29
Speaker 2: like my changeup has to be good. So yeah, the cutter,
26:33
Speaker 2: then he has six pitches. Does he need six pitches? I,
26:36
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not sure. Um, Most don't, by the way.
26:42
Speaker 2: Most don't. Until Tuesday, it's worked well for Milton. It
26:45
Speaker 2: didn't work too well for Troy on Tuesday.
26:50
Speaker 1: If you guys are watching on YouTube, over my left shoulder,
26:54
Speaker 1: there's a game-worn Tigers hat, Curtis Granderson. And on the bill,
26:59
Speaker 1: it says, don't think, have fun. I would say that
27:03
Speaker 1: that message could do Jackson Jobes some good. So, All right,
27:10
Speaker 1: let's wrap up here, Cody. It certainly feels like that
27:15
Speaker 1: Cody Clemens is a Tiger killer. Now, I went and
27:21
Speaker 1: looked it up. He's not. He actually does not have
27:24
Speaker 1: eye-popping numbers against the Tigers in his career. But when
27:27
Speaker 1: he was with the Phillies, he had a walk-off, right?
27:30
Speaker 1: And then he hit a home run each of the
27:32
Speaker 1: past two games. And obviously, like, you know, he got
27:35
Speaker 1: his start in the Tigers organization, his major league start
27:38
Speaker 1: in the Tigers organization. And good on him for finding
27:41
Speaker 1: a home. But I didn't think there was going to
27:44
Speaker 1: be a time where he had a 24-plus home run season.
27:49
Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily believe that. But he has, and credit
27:51
Speaker 1: to him. Is there a lesson there for some of
27:54
Speaker 1: these guys that have kind of become almost like the
27:58
Speaker 1: forgotten prospects? Like, good. Could this be like, hey, don't
28:03
Speaker 1: give up on Jace Young too soon? You know, Jace
28:06
Speaker 1: Young is 25, right? So, like, is there a Cody
28:11
Speaker 1: Clemons lesson to be had here?
28:14
Speaker 2: I guess it's a baseball lesson for anybody. I mean,
28:17
Speaker 2: this is why teams are hesitant to give up on players.
28:20
Speaker 2: I think that even applies to, like, the Spencer Torkelson
28:23
Speaker 2: conversations we've had. Like, you think Scott Harris is going
28:26
Speaker 2: to trade Colt Keefe? I would think twice. Cody Clemons
28:30
Speaker 2: can hit 24 homers in the big leagues. Colt Keith
28:33
Speaker 2: probably can too. I don't know that I'm trying to
28:36
Speaker 2: fully make us in the lane of Jace Young apologists,
28:40
Speaker 2: but it is interesting. There's some similarities in their, in
28:43
Speaker 2: their profiles, you know, lefty bats. There's some power in theory,
28:47
Speaker 2: the defense leaves a lot to be desired. Even go
28:50
Speaker 2: look at their triple a numbers when they were both 25,
28:53
Speaker 2: they're like pretty similar. So I, I, I don't know,
28:57
Speaker 2: but I think that's the lesson is sometimes it just
29:01
Speaker 2: takes a while. And sometimes you never quite know who's
29:04
Speaker 2: going to hit. And sometimes guys hit for one year
29:06
Speaker 2: and then never do anything again. And that's the maddening
29:12
Speaker 2: beauty of baseball at work. But also why front offices
29:16
Speaker 2: don't like to just cut ties with guys.
29:20
Speaker 1: Until they have to yeah and and i liked what
29:23
Speaker 1: dan said on the radio because he went and talked
29:25
Speaker 1: to cody uh before before the series and just kind
29:29
Speaker 1: of like what his life had been like to get
29:31
Speaker 1: to this point where he's like an established you know
29:34
Speaker 1: everyday big leaguer and uh and cody said that when
29:38
Speaker 1: he got to the twins, he was like, Hey, look,
29:41
Speaker 1: just give me a run. Cause he just felt like
29:43
Speaker 1: he hadn't had a run yet. Just give me a run,
29:46
Speaker 1: a run. And if I stink, then cut me and
29:49
Speaker 1: it's all good. We'll, we'll both move on. And I
29:51
Speaker 1: think that's something that both you and I have at
29:54
Speaker 1: least wanted to see some sort of like extended run
29:58
Speaker 1: for Jace Young.
29:59
Speaker 2: Well, there's nowhere to play him now, so I don't
30:02
Speaker 2: think it's going to happen.
30:05
Speaker 1: Well, figure it out. Because there's a couple things that aren't...
30:10
Speaker 1: You're trying to.
30:11
Speaker 2: Put Jace Young and Max Anderson on this roster. Who
30:14
Speaker 2: are we... I don't know. Who are we taking off here?
30:19
Speaker 1: I mean, if we're going to do this, can you
30:23
Speaker 1: cut Glaber and just say, hey, maybe go find a.
30:26
Speaker 2: Not great practice, but you can do it.
30:28
Speaker 1: Could do it you know like like again that would
30:32
Speaker 1: be a direction but when i watched these past two
30:35
Speaker 1: nights was not direction so like so that would at
30:39
Speaker 1: least that would at least point me in in some
30:42
Speaker 1: in some some way so yeah i don't like so
30:47
Speaker 1: i don't want to do anything where like i can't
30:50
Speaker 1: believe i said that after that right you know 15
30:53
Speaker 1: to 2 uh you know game or whatever Uh, there's
30:56
Speaker 1: some positives there. Hi, you Lee had, you know, had
30:59
Speaker 1: a couple of highlights torque, you know, speaking of torque,
31:01
Speaker 1: he got himself an extra basic, good, good, good on him.
31:03
Speaker 1: You know, Riley comes back from injury and, you know,
31:06
Speaker 1: it's just a ground ball, but he gets an RBI
31:08
Speaker 1: there and it's, and it's first at bat. And, uh,
31:10
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot more to be seen about
31:14
Speaker 1: this tiger's team, regardless of the playoff race. And that's what,
31:17
Speaker 1: and that's really what we're, our focus is going to
31:19
Speaker 1: be on it. You know, there's a lot of stuff
31:21
Speaker 1: that we haven't gotten to and, We probably will over
31:23
Speaker 1: the next couple episodes, like Dylan Dingler's place, Colt Key's place,
31:28
Speaker 1: those kinds of things. So I don't want people to
31:30
Speaker 1: think that we're just overlooking that part of it. But
31:33
Speaker 1: sometimes we feel like we just want to give things
31:37
Speaker 1: the adequate space. And on Nightlight Tonight, I didn't feel
31:40
Speaker 1: like we could give a lot of those topics the
31:42
Speaker 1: adequate space, if that makes sense.
31:45
Speaker 2: I can still see an eight-game win streak incoming. Not
31:49
Speaker 2: because I think this roster is very good, just because...
31:52
Speaker 2: as we've talked about all year long. Like, I don't know.
31:54
Speaker 2: That's kind of how things tend to go.
31:56
Speaker 1: Well, again, in May, you remember this. In May, I
31:59
Speaker 1: was like, I mean, just as improbable as May was, like,
32:03
Speaker 1: there's nothing to say that the swing couldn't happen on
32:06
Speaker 1: the pendulum just as much. And for a while there,
32:08
Speaker 1: it did. So, like, yeah, we're not ruling anything out.
32:12
Speaker 1: That's why you got to keep fighting if you're on
32:14
Speaker 1: the team. And if you're one of those Toledo kids,
32:17
Speaker 1: you know what? Have some fun in the majors. See
32:20
Speaker 1: what happens. And we will be following it every step
32:24
Speaker 1: of the way. You can follow us on X, formerly
32:26
Speaker 1: known as Twitter, at Cody Stabenhagen. I am at Kieran
32:28
Speaker 1: underscore Steckley. Pod page at Tiger Territory underscore. YouTube, Apple, Spotify.
32:33
Speaker 1: You guys know what to do. We appreciate all of
32:35
Speaker 1: you so far. Cody Stabenhagen. I'm Kieran Steckley. Everybody have
32:39
Speaker 1: a great day.