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BONE-CHILLING BRYAN KOHBERGER DETAILS EMERGE Part 1 · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, bone chilling Brian Coburger.
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Speaker 2: Details emerge.
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Speaker 1: Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank
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Speaker 1: you for being with us.
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Speaker 3: Bombshell, a new tell old book reveals a bone chilling
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Speaker 3: theory on Idaho murder suspect Brian Coberger. Author Howard Bloom
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Speaker 3: joins Crime Stories for an exclusive interview.
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Speaker 1: Howard Bloom is joining us right now from Manhattan along
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Speaker 1: with an all star panel to dissect what we know
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Speaker 1: and what we are learning from Howard Bloom, you know
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Speaker 1: I have poured over every document, every search warrant, every return,
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Speaker 1: every witness statement.
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Speaker 2: That I could get my mits on.
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Speaker 1: I have flown to Idaho, to Moscow, Idaho, in the
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Speaker 1: midst of winter and shruws through the snow to look
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Speaker 1: at the scene as best as I could to drive
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Speaker 1: the route I believe, oh yeah, good times freezing, then
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Speaker 1: got in an suv at night in the pitch dark
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Speaker 1: at the time I believe Brian Coberger left that crime
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Speaker 1: scene and started his securitiest route. Oh the word hour's
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Speaker 1: drive to his apartment at nearby Washington State University of Pullman,
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Speaker 1: which should have been about an eight minute drive and
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Speaker 1: somewhere along the way, he turns his cell phone by
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Speaker 1: con that said, after all that, I still learned so
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Speaker 1: much from reading Howard Bloom's book The Name when the
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Speaker 1: Night Comes Falling a Requiem for the Idaho student murders.
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Speaker 2: Wow, even the title made me stop.
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Speaker 1: And in the midst of everything we all do in
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Speaker 1: regular life, working your children, your cat, your dog, your mom,
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Speaker 1: I managed to finish this book in one day. I
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Speaker 1: practically could not put it down. I had it in
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Speaker 1: two forms. I printed out what I had and had
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Speaker 1: it on my iPad so I could look at it
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Speaker 1: no matter where I was. Howard Bloom, it's amazing you
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Speaker 1: had me sitting in the Costco parking lot in the
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Speaker 1: heat reading your book, trying to get to the next
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Speaker 1: chapter before I came back home.
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Speaker 4: Well, I appreciate that. It's very kind. You're sitting in
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Speaker 4: a room as an author, and you wonder if anyone
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Speaker 4: will read what you write. Meant to hear someone talk
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Speaker 4: about it so graciously. I'm very flat of it. So
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Speaker 4: thank you.
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Speaker 1: Well, I've never been accused of being kind before, so
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Speaker 1: I will take that with a box of salt. I
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Speaker 1: want to get right to it. There's so much in
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Speaker 1: your book. I had to take copious notes, so I'll
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Speaker 1: just started at the beginning. It was an amazing intro,
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Speaker 1: and I was struck by the fact that you start
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Speaker 1: your book from Coburger's father's point of view, and what
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Speaker 1: I learned about his father really touched my heart. How
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Speaker 1: he never got to go to college, and he was
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Speaker 1: so proud of Brian Coburger and was already referring to
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Speaker 1: him as doctor Coburger amongst his coworkers. And it reminded
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Speaker 1: me so much, howard of my father, how he didn't
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Speaker 1: get we're first generation college and when I got through
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Speaker 1: law school, in his mind, it was the most amazing
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Speaker 1: thing ever, so proud. Right Now, here's my question with
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Speaker 1: that lead up. Almost at the beginning, his father and
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Speaker 1: his family, Coburger's family suspected him of being the killer.
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Speaker 2: I found that just.
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Speaker 1: I was dumbstruck, because you know, when I read about
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Speaker 1: a crime, I don't immediately think, oh, my son did that.
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Speaker 1: In fact, I've never thought that. Tell me you're thinking,
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Speaker 1: and why you say.
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Speaker 4: That Michael Koberger makes this trip out to see his son,
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Speaker 4: to make the ride back with him. You know, this
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Speaker 4: is a twenty eight year old man and his father
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Speaker 4: is worried about him. He's making this trip, it's fatiguing,
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Speaker 4: it's expensive, but he's worried about his son. He's sitting
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Speaker 4: next to him in this car, shoulder to shoulder. He
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Speaker 4: knows the police are looking for a white hand. And
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Speaker 4: one of the first things he realizes when he meets
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Speaker 4: his son is that his son's mood is volatile. That's
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Speaker 4: his first sign that Brian is in a state. He
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Speaker 4: goes out to meet his son in Washington State, and
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Speaker 4: he doesn't know which Brian and He's going to encounter,
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Speaker 4: but that's his first sign. And he begins to see
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Speaker 4: has the moods change and become deeper and more acerbic.
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Speaker 4: He begins to wonder, oh, my gosh, he begins to
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Speaker 4: think the unthinkable. He begins to consider that his son
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Speaker 4: could in fact be a murderer. And all this is
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Speaker 4: building building in his mind, and he's afraid to go there,
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Speaker 4: as any father would. But he's getting these clues as
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Speaker 4: if he were following footsteps in the snow, and the
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Speaker 4: footsteps are becoming bloodier and bloodier, and he now realizes
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Speaker 4: could this really be true? And then all of a sudden,
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Speaker 4: they're driving along in Indiana and they see police sirens
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Speaker 4: in the back and the car has to pull over,
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Speaker 4: and he begins to feel what is going to happen next?
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Speaker 1: Well, guys with me, Howard Bloom, who has literally written
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Speaker 1: the book the name of the book, When the Night
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Speaker 1: Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murder. And
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Speaker 1: I have learned so much more than we the public,
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Speaker 1: have learned, more than my sources have told me, by
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Speaker 1: exhaustive research by Howard Bloom.
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Speaker 2: You're looking right at him, Howard.
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Speaker 1: You stated that these aren't your words, that you discovered
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Speaker 1: this from what Coburger's father stated to other people. What
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Speaker 1: did he state about immediately suspecting here's his son was
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Speaker 1: the killer.
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Speaker 4: He went out to Idaho Washington State at the beginning
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Speaker 4: with suspicions. You have to remember that, Michael, this is
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Speaker 4: not his first trip out there. He even took his
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Speaker 4: son out on the first trip in August when some
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Speaker 4: was just registering for school. He had real concerns about
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Speaker 4: his son. Some was a former heroin attic, his fun
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Speaker 4: son had psychological problems. At the same time, he wanted
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Speaker 4: to believe against gold hope that his son was changing,
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Speaker 4: that his son had reinvented himself. He had come in
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Speaker 4: a mediocre student, and now he was in an excellent
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Speaker 4: graduate program for criminology. And Michael wanted to believe that
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Speaker 4: his son was going to get a PhD. He was
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Speaker 4: going to be my doctor, Brian Coburger, and yet at
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Speaker 4: the same time, in the back of his mind trying,
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Speaker 4: he was thinking the unthinkable. And then things just fall
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Speaker 4: into place. There was a shooting at just blocks from
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Speaker 4: where Brian lived. As they were making this trip across country.
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Speaker 4: A man, a former veteran, went berserk and took hostages
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Speaker 4: in a student housing and a swat team had to
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Speaker 4: come in and they killed him. And Michael Colberger, as
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Speaker 4: he told people who spoke with me, began to feel
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Speaker 4: that there was something just in this part of the
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Speaker 4: world that were evil forces. That's how he put it
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Speaker 4: at work.
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Speaker 2: And his son was you know what.
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Speaker 1: I've read a lot and investigated a lot about the
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Speaker 1: family dynamics of Brian Coburger Listen.
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Speaker 5: Riyan Coberger's family members are concerned about Brian's behavior prior
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Speaker 5: to his arrest. Author Howard Bloom says one of Coberger's
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Speaker 5: sisters confronts their father about the possibility that Brian Coberger
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Speaker 5: is involved in the Moscow murders, but Michael Coberger apparently
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Speaker 5: brushes off their concerns. Bloom says Michael Coberger is on
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Speaker 5: edge when he picks up his son to drive back
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Speaker 5: from Washington to Pennsylvania, claiming the senior Coburger has seen
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Speaker 5: the headlines. He knows four students are killed twelve miles
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Speaker 5: from his son's house, and according to Bloom, Michael Koberger
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Speaker 5: knows what a troubled son he has.
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Speaker 1: Well, you know, joining me an all star panel. In
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Speaker 1: addition to this incredible author Howard Bloom, Howard, I noticed
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Speaker 1: that one of the points of contention was about the
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Speaker 1: route when I was driving that route from the King
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Speaker 1: Road murder scene back to his apartment in Pullman. At Pullman,
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Speaker 1: I was wondering why he did that, Why he drove
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Speaker 1: an hour in the middle of the night. And I'm
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Speaker 1: sure you know there's no street lights, it's incres pitched black,
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Speaker 1: and you only ran off the road a couple of
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Speaker 1: times when a semi would come by.
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Speaker 2: But he basically did the same thing with his dad.
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Speaker 1: The dad flies out, does a quick turnaround, he's exhausted,
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Speaker 1: he gets in the launcher with his son, and the
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Speaker 1: sun refuses to go the direct and much shorter route.
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Speaker 1: Do you think that had anything to do with Coburger
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Speaker 1: believing he was being followed or monitored.
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Speaker 4: I think Colberger, being a criminology student, was trying to
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Speaker 4: take precautions at this point. I don't think he had
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Speaker 4: any belief or any knowledge that he was being followed. However,
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Speaker 4: he was trying to be circumspect. He was trying to
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Speaker 4: be one step smarter than the authority.
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Speaker 2: Crime stories.
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Speaker 1: With Nancy Grace, I want to go out to Chris
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Speaker 1: McDonough joining us, the director of the Cold Case Foundation,
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Speaker 1: former homicide detective, host on the Interview Room on YouTube,
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Speaker 1: who like me, like Howard, has seen the evidence, has
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Speaker 1: walked the scene, very familiar with the area. Chris mcdonnaugh,
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Speaker 1: You've had a lot of homicide cases and very often
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Speaker 1: family members know their son is a killer, but they
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Speaker 1: will never admit it. And I'm thinking about Coburger's dad,
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Speaker 1: who knew he had suspicions at the beginning his son
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Speaker 1: was a quadruple killer.
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Speaker 6: Yeah, and Nancy, I think what happens is write that
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Speaker 6: parental you know, tendency kicks in a relationship to they
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Speaker 6: want to believe it, but they don't necessarily want to
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Speaker 6: believe it, and so it's kind of a you know,
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Speaker 6: a tug and pull from a parental physician. However, in
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Speaker 6: this particular case, it's obvious dad had his radar was
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Speaker 6: way up and had taken that trip to go out
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Speaker 6: and pick up his son.
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Speaker 1: Well, you know, think about it, Chris, and let me
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Speaker 1: throw this to doctor Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrists joining us
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Speaker 1: Angela Arnold MD dot com. Have you ever seen parents
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Speaker 1: a tiptoe around their child all the time that they're
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Speaker 1: just waiting for an explosion? And when I was reading
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Speaker 1: the first chapter in Howard's book, When the Night Comes Falling,
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Speaker 1: you could feel the tension of the father in the
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Speaker 1: car with Coburger on this long drive, just waiting for
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Speaker 1: an explosion. But we got to keep in mind the dad,
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Speaker 1: Michael Coburger, has spent his whole life trying to prop
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Speaker 1: up support help Brian Coburger, so he knew it was
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Speaker 1: like walking through a minefield.
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Speaker 2: Anything can make him explode.
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Speaker 1: And when Coburger insisted on this secuitous route, which to
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Speaker 1: hours and hours longer than I direct route. He went, Okay, fine,
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Speaker 1: you're the boss. Those are the words the father used
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Speaker 1: to Coburger.
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Speaker 7: Well, sure, because Nancy, the last thing he was going
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Speaker 7: to do was confront this guy. Because I have to
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Speaker 7: wonder if the father, if the father knew all of this.
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Speaker 7: Was the father a little bit terrified of what could
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Speaker 7: set Brian off? And possibly was the father's life in
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Speaker 7: danger at this point because apparently Brian was agitated at
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Speaker 7: this time. I wonder if the circuitous route had anything
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Speaker 7: to do with some sort of OCD kind of disorder
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Speaker 7: that this guy has.
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Speaker 2: Bloom.
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Speaker 1: You also described Brian Koberger his Heroin habit, how he
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Speaker 1: got into Heroin and when he managed to kick Heroin
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Speaker 1: after his father turned him in for stealing the sister's
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Speaker 1: poae and he had to go into some sort of
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Speaker 1: a rehabit treatment to get his life straight. He kicked
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Speaker 1: Heroin and decided his body was a temple. And that
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Speaker 1: is when he became a vegetarian. And I had wondered
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Speaker 1: where that started, because now he's demanding certain types of
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Speaker 1: meals behind bars and he's getting them. And I remember
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Speaker 1: an anecdote where the family couldn't cook with certain pots
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Speaker 1: and pants because they had once cooked meat.
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Speaker 2: I'm working up to it.
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Speaker 1: You reveal that Coburger had two types of plastic surgery
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Speaker 1: after he loses one hundred pounds.
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Speaker 4: What were they Well, Brian Colberger is intent, and this
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Speaker 4: is the admirable part. He's trying to reinvent himself. He
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Speaker 4: comes out of this depressing, hard scrabble existence, a family
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Speaker 4: with two bankruptcies. He's going to hard scrabble high school.
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Speaker 4: His father is a janitor at the high school. He's
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Speaker 4: sort of embarrassed by that. He becomes a heroin addict,
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Speaker 4: and yet, to his credit, he works himself out of this.
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Speaker 4: He then wants to he's trying to approach girls at
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Speaker 4: high school. They're ignoring him. He loses the weight and
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Speaker 4: he still has this sort of flesh that's going over
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Speaker 4: his midsection, and it's just not the sort of guy
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Speaker 4: he wants to be. He wants to be a player,
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Speaker 4: he wants to be one of the cool guys, and
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Speaker 4: he thinks so he has this surgery. These two surgeries
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Speaker 4: are covered by insurance, and he reinvents himself. He's in
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Speaker 4: good shape, as you can see him in the photographs.
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Speaker 4: He works out he does martial arts, and he still
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Speaker 4: tries to become the man he wants to be.
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Speaker 2: The plastic surgeries.
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Speaker 4: He has these two plastic surgeries to get over his midsection.
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Speaker 4: So there's not this sort of envelope.
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Speaker 1: Powered you're so polite. Okay, you outline it in your book.
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Speaker 1: He had two surgeries, one of them being an abdominoplasty
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Speaker 1: and the other you know what they're long. Let me
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Speaker 1: rephrase list. You described two plastic surgeries that Brian Koberger has.
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Speaker 1: Both of them, I believe were a were related to
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Speaker 1: removing flaps of skin left over from the one hundred
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Speaker 1: plus pound weight loss, a flap of skin and tissue
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Speaker 1: that went down over his private parts and his lower stomach.
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Speaker 1: He wanted to get rid of that, and when he
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Speaker 1: did get rid of that through plastic surgery, he had
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Speaker 1: a serious buff body. Is the way I take it
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Speaker 1: from your book is that what happened.
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Speaker 4: That's exactly what happened. He had this vision that he
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Speaker 4: would become a new Brian Coburger, and the tragedy is
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Speaker 4: he almost succeeded. He gets out to Washington State a
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Speaker 4: new man, and he's trying to live a new life
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Speaker 4: and yet he's pulled back in to what he always is,
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Speaker 4: to his aspens, I believe.
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Speaker 5: Brian Coberger allegedly enters the home and walks past the
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Speaker 5: first rooms he sees coming into the Moscow, Idaho house,
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Speaker 5: and goes straight up a narrow staircase and turns directly
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Speaker 5: into the room of his target, Madison Mogan. Author Howard
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Speaker 5: Bloom says investigators believe Matti Mogan is the target. Inter
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Speaker 5: best friend Kaylegan's office is killed because she's in the
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Speaker 5: room with Mogan.
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Speaker 3: Did Brian Cooberger's parents suspect their son? An explosive new
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Speaker 3: book suggests family knew more than they ever let on
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Speaker 3: about their troubled son. Author Howard Bloom tells us more.
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Speaker 1: Guys joining me is the author Howard Bloom, author of
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Speaker 1: When the Night Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho
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Speaker 1: student murders. Howard Bloom has gone where many have not
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Speaker 1: tediously investigating everything about this case, and the book is
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Speaker 1: full of revelations. We were just describing how Coberger's own
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Speaker 1: family thought at the get go, before he was ever
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Speaker 1: named a suspect or even a POY person of interest,
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Speaker 1: that he committed the quadruple murders. And in this vein,
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Speaker 1: can you imagine Coburger's father so proud of his son
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Speaker 1: getting his PhD, flies out to Washington to drive Coburger.
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Speaker 2: Back home to the Poconos area for.
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Speaker 1: Thanksgiving, and he's sitting there for all these hours in
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Speaker 1: this white Elantra, which of course he knows has been
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Speaker 1: named in the case, and looking over at his son
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Speaker 1: who was acting more and more volatile.
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Speaker 2: But I want to move on to the next point. Listen.
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Speaker 5: In a shocking revelation, author Howard Bloom claims Brian Coberger
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Speaker 5: is not a random spree killer. He had one target
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Speaker 5: in mind the night he allegedly killed four college students
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Speaker 5: in their home off campus in Moscow, Idaho. Bloom says
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Speaker 5: investigators believe in a non targeted attack, the killer would
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Speaker 5: have stopped at the first door inside the house. It
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Speaker 5: would have been instinctive to go into the first rooms
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Speaker 5: after gaining entry, But that isn't what happened. Investigators point
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Speaker 5: to the two surviving roommates, Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk,
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Speaker 5: as proof Coburger is after a specific target.
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Speaker 1: You know, you really back your theory up with a
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Speaker 1: lot of facts and the way they're laid out, it
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Speaker 1: makes perfect sense. But all along it has been believed,
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Speaker 1: it has been accepted that killing Goldsolves was the target,
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Speaker 1: the original target, and the others were just collateral damage.
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Speaker 2: But you say no, why.
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Speaker 4: Well, at this point, Haley is not even really living
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Speaker 4: in the house. She's living up north with her family.
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Speaker 4: She's going to graduate at the end of the term
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Speaker 4: in December. And Brian really wouldn't have come in contact
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Speaker 4: with her necessarily. But he did go to the Mad
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Speaker 4: Greek restaurant in downtown Moscow, is sort of vegan food
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Speaker 4: which he liked, which he was here to strictly, and
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Speaker 4: Maddie was a waitress there, And my belief is that
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Speaker 4: they encountered one another in the restaurant any words said,
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Speaker 4: did they have a conversation? I don't think that was necessary.
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Speaker 4: You know, both the prosecution and the defense have said
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Speaker 4: for the record that there was no interaction between Brian
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Speaker 4: Coburger and any of the victims. They did not follow
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Speaker 4: any of them on social media to their knowledge, never
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Speaker 4: had any real conversations with them. But Brian was a
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Speaker 4: man whose life was sort of determined by obsessions, determined
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Speaker 4: such as being addicted to heroin, such as losing one
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Speaker 4: hundred pounds, such as deciding to become the best student
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Speaker 4: after being a mediocre student. And I think once he
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Speaker 4: saw Maddie for whatever reasons, I mean, she's an attractive,
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Speaker 4: blonde woman, charming, vivacious, at juliant, he becomes interested in her,
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Speaker 4: and I think his fixation. He would see the parties
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Speaker 4: he would be I believe, on the periphery of events,
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Speaker 4: as parties were hosted at this house on King Road,
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Speaker 4: a party house, and he would look at that and
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Speaker 4: he felt it was in some ways a constant rebuke
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Speaker 4: to the life that he was leading and the life
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Speaker 4: he wanted to live. He could never be a part
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Speaker 4: of that. And he decided, in his rage and I believe,
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Speaker 4: to do something about it. And when he entered the
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Speaker 4: house that night, and he goes in through the kitchen,
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Speaker 4: he passes two bedrooms, the bedroom where Xana is with
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Speaker 4: Ethan and also the bedroom where Villain is. He doesn't stop.
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Speaker 4: He goes up up a flight, which isn't your natural inclination,
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Speaker 4: into Maddie's room and he finds her, but he's surprised
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Speaker 4: to see that Kaylee is there. He had no idea
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Speaker 4: that as she's sleeping over that she's staying for the weekend.
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Speaker 4: She'd come to town to show up her new car.
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Speaker 4: She's just gotten a used range Rover, and she was
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Speaker 4: very proud of it and excited by it, and she
21:41
Speaker 4: wanted to share that with her friends. And he discovers
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Speaker 4: Maddie and then kills her. Cayley fights back, climbs out
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Speaker 4: of the bed that's pressed against the wall, and he
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Speaker 4: kills her, and Cayley is collateral damage when he goes downstairs.
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Speaker 4: The two other victims are collateral damage too.
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Speaker 1: Joining me is a now famous professor of forensics, Joe
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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood
22:13
Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet on Amazon, a star of a hit
22:17
Speaker 1: series Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. But for my purposes,
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Speaker 1: and most importantly, he is a quote death investigator who
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Speaker 1: has investigated over one thousand deaths. Joe Scott Morgan, you
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Speaker 1: and I have gone over the evidence, both on air
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Speaker 1: and off, trying to determine who was the target. First
22:42
Speaker 1: of all, doesn't matter who was the target, because they
22:44
Speaker 1: were all for murdered. But the reason we were looking
22:48
Speaker 1: for this needle in a haystack is to determine if
22:52
Speaker 1: we knew the target, we could better figure out who
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Speaker 1: was the perpetrator. Right, So you're hearing what Howard Bloom
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Speaker 1: outlines in his chapter fifteen, and I think this may
23:05
Speaker 1: be dispositive from your point of view. The attacks on
23:10
Speaker 1: Ghost Solvice versus Mattie Mogan, they are very revealing.
23:17
Speaker 8: Explain, They're very revealing because of the level of violence
23:22
Speaker 8: I think that's involved here. You've got these two victims
23:26
Speaker 8: that are contained in that bedroom up there. And I
23:28
Speaker 8: got to tell you, based upon what Howard is saying,
23:33
Speaker 8: the idea that this individual Coberger allegedly knew where to
23:38
Speaker 8: go in this house because as you well know, you
23:41
Speaker 8: stood outside that house, Nancy, it's a very confusing layout.
23:47
Speaker 8: You would have to have specific knowledge of where her
23:50
Speaker 8: room would be at that particular time. Now, the fact
23:54
Speaker 8: that there was another occupant in there, maybe that's the
23:57
Speaker 8: case and he was surprised by that. But it goes
24:00
Speaker 8: to this idea of I would like to try to
24:04
Speaker 8: understand if he had scoped this place out for a
24:06
Speaker 8: particular period of time. Also, this kind of dovetails with
24:10
Speaker 8: what Howard had said as well, that he saw parties
24:15
Speaker 8: going on, and that this is kind of a projection.
24:18
Speaker 8: He understands the life in there. There was a real
24:21
Speaker 8: chilling video that came up, I don't know about a
24:24
Speaker 8: year ago. I don't know if you guys recall this
24:26
Speaker 8: of them the occupants of that house, actually giving internal
24:31
Speaker 8: views of that in a TikTok video. It made my
24:35
Speaker 8: skin crawl as a dad and as a college professor,
24:38
Speaker 8: because the individual that's seeing this can see the layout
24:41
Speaker 8: inside of that, inside of that structure, which I think
24:45
Speaker 8: that we can all agree is kind of peculiar, to
24:47
Speaker 8: say the very least.
24:48
Speaker 1: Okay, you can't have it both ways, Joscott Morgan or
24:51
Speaker 1: you Howard Bloom, do I dare to call you on
24:54
Speaker 1: the carpet after you've literally written the book we can't
24:57
Speaker 1: have He's full of ray age and goes after these
25:02
Speaker 1: girls because he can't have them. He can't have the
25:05
Speaker 1: party life, the popularity, the thing he's been seeking since
25:09
Speaker 1: he lost that one hundred pounds and had those two
25:10
Speaker 1: plastic surgeries.
25:12
Speaker 2: It's not happening for him. You can't have the rage.
25:15
Speaker 1: Plus, I really like the way you laid this out
25:19
Speaker 1: and trying to ah, here we go.
25:22
Speaker 2: Near the beginning of your.
25:23
Speaker 1: Book, you talk about Brian Coberger delving into quote the
25:30
Speaker 1: criminal mind and will be a quote scientist exploring why
25:35
Speaker 1: criminals do what they do. It's been kicked around that
25:40
Speaker 1: his motive, not that the state needs to prove a motive.
25:43
Speaker 2: They don't, but jury's like to hear it.
25:45
Speaker 1: So practically speaking, you better hand one over on a
25:48
Speaker 1: silver platter on top of the Christmas tree.
25:51
Speaker 2: You can't have him.
25:52
Speaker 1: Full of rage and methodically trying to carry out the
25:58
Speaker 1: perfect murder and get away with that very calmly and methodically.
26:03
Speaker 2: So which one is it? What about it? Bloom?
26:07
Speaker 4: He was filled with mania, which is not the same
26:10
Speaker 4: thing as rage, And you're trying to understand make a
26:13
Speaker 4: rational explanation for completely irrational acts. What Brian Coburger tried
26:19
Speaker 4: to do that night is to commit I believe the
26:22
Speaker 4: perfect crime. I believe he wanted to get Maddie, he
26:26
Speaker 4: wanted to kill her, and then once he gets into
26:29
Speaker 4: the house, once he finds another girl there, all his
26:32
Speaker 4: plans fall apart. That's why he leaves the knife sheet behind.
26:38
Speaker 4: He did think things out, as the police well know.
26:42
Speaker 4: There wasn't any blood, a trail of blood left by
26:46
Speaker 4: the perpetrator in the house. All they had was the
26:49
Speaker 4: touch DNA on the knife sheet. There was no trail
26:53
Speaker 4: of blood going up the hill or where a car
26:57
Speaker 4: was parked. To this day, hey, they have not found
27:01
Speaker 4: the murder weapon. To this day, they have not found
27:03
Speaker 4: any clothes covered with blood from that house. And the
27:07
Speaker 4: house was filled with blood. We've all seen the pictures
27:09
Speaker 4: of the rivulets of blood leaking out from the foundation
27:13
Speaker 4: of the house. So he did have some planning. New
27:16
Speaker 4: enough he thought to turn off his phone from two
27:19
Speaker 4: forty seven to four forty eight for those two hours
27:22
Speaker 4: when the murders were taking place, and he was getting say.
27:25
Speaker 1: Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, Howard Bloom, you're the fire hydrant.
27:30
Speaker 1: You're giving me the information faster than I can take
27:32
Speaker 1: it in I can't drink from a fire hydrant. You've
27:34
Speaker 1: got to give it to me teaspoon by teaspoon. And
27:37
Speaker 1: I'm telling you this book amazing. But Brian C. Stewart
27:43
Speaker 1: joining me, high profile lawyer joining us who practices in
27:47
Speaker 1: this jurisdiction as well as in Utah. Brian, I hear
27:52
Speaker 1: what Howard is saying. I hear what Joe Scott Morgan
27:54
Speaker 1: is saying, and I've got to agree, I empathize, I
27:59
Speaker 1: get both the theories. The reality is the state never
28:04
Speaker 1: has to prove a motive, but your ours want to
28:10
Speaker 1: hear a motive. So do you believe that in this
28:14
Speaker 1: case Joseic's trial, which it is, despite the defense dragging
28:18
Speaker 1: their feet and dragging the judge along with them, he's
28:22
Speaker 1: going along with it.
28:24
Speaker 2: Do you believe the.
28:25
Speaker 1: State has to pick a theory as to motive because
28:29
Speaker 1: these two were not consistent, or are they rage versus method?
28:33
Speaker 9: Well, motive can be an important part of the circumstantial
28:37
Speaker 9: evidence that leads a jury to understand why a perpetrator
28:41
Speaker 9: commits a crime, But as you said, it's not necessary
28:45
Speaker 9: to prove that they committed the crime. Here, you know
28:49
Speaker 9: where Brian Colberger seems like somebody who's studying criminal justice
28:53
Speaker 9: and perhaps sees himself as the smartest person in the
28:56
Speaker 9: room or a narcissist.
28:58
Speaker 3: His motivation may.
28:59
Speaker 9: Be to commit the perfect crime, and he would know
29:02
Speaker 9: that choosing someone in another city who he doesn't have
29:06
Speaker 9: a relationship with would create a lot of distance between
29:10
Speaker 9: him and the potential victim.
29:11
Speaker 8: That's the first thing that police look for.
29:13
Speaker 9: His relationships in a murder, and he might have chosen
29:18
Speaker 9: Maddie as someone who's young and blonde and beautiful and
29:22
Speaker 9: might get him a lot of notoriety as he evades justice.
29:27
Speaker 9: And so if that's his motivation, that could certainly be
29:32
Speaker 9: the reason why he chose somebody and doesn't have necessarily
29:35
Speaker 9: rage for Maddie, but has rage for the system, or mania,
29:40
Speaker 9: as Harold says, to beat the system.
29:44
Speaker 3: What happened the Faithful Night of the University of Idaho
29:48
Speaker 3: for Murderous New Theories revealed in a special episode with
29:53
Speaker 3: author Howard Bloom.
29:54
Speaker 2: And joining us.
29:56
Speaker 1: Howard Bloom has meticulously investigated so many facts of the
30:01
Speaker 1: case that we didn't know about, including Coburger's past, how
30:06
Speaker 1: he lost one hundred pounds and had two different plastic
30:12
Speaker 1: surgeries to remove a flap of skin from his stomach
30:17
Speaker 1: that went down over his genitals.
30:20
Speaker 2: He didn't want that look.
30:21
Speaker 1: He lost one hundred pounds on his own, had two
30:24
Speaker 1: plastic surgeries to reinvent himself as a modern day Adonis.
30:30
Speaker 1: But according to his friends what I'm reading in When
30:33
Speaker 1: the Night Comes Falling, his friends didn't like how that
30:38
Speaker 1: transformation changed his personality. He became I know it all
30:43
Speaker 1: very aggressive, and that was born out at Washington State University.
30:50
Speaker 2: He treated his friends in high school that way. After
30:53
Speaker 2: he got his new look, he.
30:56
Speaker 1: Became in his mind the it guy, but somehow he
31:00
Speaker 1: couldn't pull it off.
31:02
Speaker 2: What if anything, did.
31:03
Speaker 1: That have to do with the murders of four beautiful
31:07
Speaker 1: University Idaho's students.
31:09
Speaker 2: Okay, you know, to this whole.
31:11
Speaker 1: Panel, including Howard Bloom joining us, I've got to have
31:17
Speaker 1: more than what Joe Scott Morgan is telling me that
31:20
Speaker 1: the attack on Kelly was much more savage than the
31:26
Speaker 1: attack on Matty Morgan. Why all four of them were
31:30
Speaker 1: brutally stabbed dead? I need to know who is my target?
31:36
Speaker 1: And in this book Bloom describes a blood trail.
31:41
Speaker 2: He also describes the blood literally leaking.
31:44
Speaker 1: Down the outside of the house, which I observed when
31:48
Speaker 1: I went to Idaho. But that said, let's talk about
31:52
Speaker 1: the blood evidence, Howard Bloom, What about the blood evidence
31:58
Speaker 1: convinces you to who the real target was?
32:02
Speaker 4: Well, one point that you've just made about the wounds
32:05
Speaker 4: on Kayley being so severe, Caylee bought back. She was not.
32:11
Speaker 4: She was originally in the bed with Maddie. She gets
32:14
Speaker 4: up from the bed. The room is very narrow. She
32:18
Speaker 4: tries to get towards the wall, but she's trapped by
32:22
Speaker 4: Coburger and she's fighting back, and she is not dying easily.
32:30
Speaker 4: It's a very violent death, and he's enraged that he
32:34
Speaker 4: even has to. I believe that he had to encounter her.
32:37
Speaker 4: He did not expect her, and to then find this
32:40
Speaker 4: woman fighting back like a tiger is putting him in
32:46
Speaker 4: his mania, is exacerbating the situation. He thought he would
32:50
Speaker 4: go in there and kill Maddie, who was her presence
32:54
Speaker 4: rebuked him. I think that's what was going on that
32:59
Speaker 4: night that house.
33:00
Speaker 2: Nancy.
33:01
Speaker 7: Yeah.
33:01
Speaker 6: In so there's a couple of things that you know,
33:04
Speaker 6: from my think thought process in this one is you
33:10
Speaker 6: know that Evening cobergers he's he's I don't think he's manic, depressive,
33:15
Speaker 6: or in a manic state in any way, shape or form.
33:18
Speaker 6: My personal opinion, I think he's very organized. He selected
33:22
Speaker 6: his target set on purpose. And the reason I feel
33:27
Speaker 6: that way, there's a couple of things. One is both
33:30
Speaker 6: Madison and Kayley they're attached at the him from you know,
33:36
Speaker 6: elementary school they go through, they select the same college.
33:40
Speaker 6: They have the same kind of birthday parties together. They're
33:43
Speaker 6: in the exact same house, and that evening, when Coburger
33:48
Speaker 6: pulls up, if he's our guy, they he's got to
33:52
Speaker 6: see her car. He's got to know based on the
33:55
Speaker 6: surveillance that he's been doing, that she potentially could be
33:59
Speaker 6: there as well. And so'll we have to now ask
34:03
Speaker 6: our shelves.
34:03
Speaker 2: Oh wha, No, I disagree.
34:05
Speaker 1: I disagree because I don't know that Coburger knew about
34:09
Speaker 1: her new car, Arrange Rover that was new and well,
34:14
Speaker 1: I mean it's a used vehicle.
34:16
Speaker 4: At this point, Kelly is not really living in the house.
34:19
Speaker 4: She's living at Courd Dealin. She just comes in for
34:22
Speaker 4: that weekend and he didn't know that. He didn't expect it.
34:26
Speaker 4: And when he's circling the house, he's I believe he's
34:30
Speaker 4: not really doing that night three times he comes and goes.
34:34
Speaker 4: I believe he's not doing surveillance. I believe he's trying
34:37
Speaker 4: to find the will inside himself to turn off the motor,
34:43
Speaker 4: to stop the car, to climb down the hill and
34:46
Speaker 4: commit this crime. Each time he circles the house, it
34:49
Speaker 4: is not to see what's going on. He doesn't even
34:52
Speaker 4: really notice the cars, but it's really an internal battle
34:55
Speaker 4: he's fighting. If he had seen the cars, if you'd
34:58
Speaker 4: even seen the door Dad delivery, there was a door
35:01
Speaker 4: Dass delivery at four am, he might have considered it.
35:05
Speaker 1: Howard Bloom, you were taking our program down a big path.
35:09
Speaker 1: Now I guess you're joining us from Manhattan that you
35:12
Speaker 1: have never been down a pig path.
35:14
Speaker 2: But what a pig path is?
35:16
Speaker 1: It is certainly not a direct line or goes in
35:18
Speaker 1: any organized manner.
35:21
Speaker 2: It just goes all over the place.
35:23
Speaker 1: But you know what, Howard Bloom, that's the way an
35:25
Speaker 1: investigation is. When I would sit around a table talking
35:29
Speaker 1: with investigators and witnesses other das one topic leads to
35:35
Speaker 1: another topic, leads to another topic, and it's hard to
35:39
Speaker 1: marshal your evidence, which you did a great job in
35:41
Speaker 1: your book doing.
35:42
Speaker 2: But guys, he brought up another thing. He brought up.
35:46
Speaker 1: Bloom brought up that coburger circles the house three times.
35:53
Speaker 2: And yes, I'm going to get.
35:54
Speaker 1: To that store clerk who, in my mind, helped crack
35:58
Speaker 1: this case.
35:58
Speaker 2: Who you say wants to main anonymous? I don't, Blamer.
36:02
Speaker 1: Long story short, how did you confirm, Howard Bloom that
36:07
Speaker 1: a white Elantra. Our car similar to a white Elantra,
36:12
Speaker 1: circled the King wrote address three times leading up to
36:18
Speaker 1: the quadruple murder.
36:20
Speaker 2: How did you confirm that?
36:21
Speaker 4: Well, part of it is in court documents and the
36:24
Speaker 4: public affidavits, but I also spoke with the gas station
36:28
Speaker 4: attendant who gave the surveillance video to the police too,
36:33
Speaker 4: So a lot of that is public record. What is
36:36
Speaker 4: not public record, clearly, is what was in the driver's
36:41
Speaker 4: mind at that time as he was circling. Something you
36:44
Speaker 4: have to remember, in all the surveillance videos, there's not
36:48
Speaker 4: one photograph of the license plate of the car. There's
36:51
Speaker 4: not one photograph of the driver. You can't see who
36:55
Speaker 4: it is holding the steering wheel. The FBI has tried
36:58
Speaker 4: everything to try to pully a picture from inside the
37:03
Speaker 4: car of who was driving that night, and they couldn't.
37:06
Speaker 4: So Colburger I believe was the man in that in
37:10
Speaker 4: that honde a Lantra, and he was trying to find
37:14
Speaker 4: the will to cross over into the man who was
37:18
Speaker 4: thinking about this horrific crime, to becoming the sort of
37:22
Speaker 4: man who could commit it. And it was a difficult,
37:25
Speaker 4: difficult journey he was taking internally that.
37:28
Speaker 3: Night families of the slain Idaho four victims await justice
37:33
Speaker 3: as a judge sets a date for trial.
37:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that judge, many argue, is cow telling to
37:39
Speaker 1: the defense. When are these families going to get justice?
37:43
Speaker 1: That's a whole other can of worms with me. Howard Bloom,
37:46
Speaker 1: the author of an incredible new book, When the Night
37:48
Speaker 1: Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders. Okay,
37:53
Speaker 1: all hands on deck to analyze what Howard Blome was
37:56
Speaker 1: telling us. Now, Howard Bloom, you crossed over into the
38:01
Speaker 1: gas station video, which is later when I believe Coburger.
38:05
Speaker 2: Is leaving the scene.
38:07
Speaker 1: I only to go back to you stating in your
38:10
Speaker 1: book that you believe Coburger a white Elantra circles the
38:15
Speaker 1: crime scene three times that we know of before the
38:20
Speaker 1: murders occur. Now, not the gas station video you are
38:25
Speaker 1: telling me that's caught on video?
38:27
Speaker 2: Is it?
38:28
Speaker 1: As you described at the end near the end of
38:31
Speaker 1: chapter twenty, a guy who owns a rental complex, I
38:37
Speaker 1: think three apartments a rental complex nearby, and he's got
38:42
Speaker 1: a camera on top of the rental complex looking down.
38:47
Speaker 1: Did his video catch the launcher circling three times before
38:53
Speaker 1: the murders.
38:54
Speaker 4: Yes, and in this video too, they still can't make
38:58
Speaker 4: out a license plate, still can't make out in the
39:01
Speaker 4: darkness the driver, but they are able to make out
39:04
Speaker 4: the car. When the FBI in Quantico is trying to
39:07
Speaker 4: figure out from these videos what kind of car is,
39:09
Speaker 4: they try three different times until they finally come up
39:13
Speaker 4: with a Hondai Elanka from twenty eleven to twenty fifteen.
39:17
Speaker 4: At first they thought it was just twenty eleven to
39:20
Speaker 4: twenty thirteen. And that's one of the reasons why Brian
39:24
Speaker 4: Colberger takes so long to find him, because they were
39:28
Speaker 4: the authorities in Washington State were really looking for the
39:31
Speaker 4: wrong car.
39:39
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace just got Morgan and everybody
39:47
Speaker 1: jump in. I'm going to circle back to you, Brian
39:49
Speaker 1: Stewart about Mensrea about intent.
39:54
Speaker 2: Is it even needed?
39:56
Speaker 1: Do we need explicit intent or is it implicit by
40:00
Speaker 1: the number of the killings that we have murder ones,
40:04
Speaker 1: of course we do, But I want to talk to
40:05
Speaker 1: you about the legal theory before that, Joe Scott Morgan.
40:08
Speaker 1: You hear Howard Bloom describing three times he circled that
40:13
Speaker 1: we know of, and it's caught.
40:16
Speaker 2: I believe on the top of that rental facility.
40:19
Speaker 1: There's a camera up on the roofs and I looked everywhere.
40:23
Speaker 2: When I was out there, Joe Scott Morgan.
40:25
Speaker 1: I went very slowly, and it was slippery and icy,
40:29
Speaker 1: and I fell more than once. I looked all the
40:32
Speaker 1: way up and down the street for surveillance videos.
40:35
Speaker 2: It's very narrow. I've told you this story.
40:39
Speaker 1: I could sand on one side of the street, look
40:41
Speaker 1: into the kitchen window across the street and tell you
40:44
Speaker 1: what kind of liquid soap they had sitting on their
40:48
Speaker 1: sink at the kitchen window.
40:50
Speaker 2: It's that close.
40:51
Speaker 1: I did not see the overhead surveillance camera on that rental.
40:57
Speaker 2: It's on the roof. It's incredible.
41:00
Speaker 1: Now he was talking about the FBI tried everything to
41:04
Speaker 1: enhance the tag and the driver.
41:07
Speaker 2: How what do they do doing ants?
41:09
Speaker 8: They're washing this thing through various programs that they have Nancy,
41:13
Speaker 8: in order to try to tighten down the image because
41:15
Speaker 8: it's I'm sure that it's very granulated, particularly given the
41:21
Speaker 8: nighttime status of this, where you're not going to be
41:24
Speaker 8: able to pick up you know, without some kind of
41:27
Speaker 8: light enhancement like an infrared or something like this, that'll
41:30
Speaker 8: be able to give you finer detail. So it's going
41:33
Speaker 8: to be greatly compromised. And look, you know, you have
41:37
Speaker 8: to think about the house itself. This house is kind
41:40
Speaker 8: of shaded in darkness from the rear. You're not going
41:43
Speaker 8: to see a lot there. There's not a lot. It's
41:45
Speaker 8: not like being in a huge city where you've got
41:47
Speaker 8: street lights that are all over the place that'll be
41:50
Speaker 8: illuminating this environment. So it's going to be a tough
41:53
Speaker 8: ask if you're thinking about attempting to get an image
41:57
Speaker 8: that's that's capturable so that they can do what they
42:01
Speaker 8: need to do in order to identify this individual.
42:03
Speaker 2: Okay, Joe Scott, just please stop. You know what I
42:06
Speaker 2: can see.
42:07
Speaker 1: I can see a tiny little crater on the moon,
42:12
Speaker 1: but I can't get the tag number.
42:14
Speaker 2: Or the visage of Coburger's face.
42:18
Speaker 8: Why. Because these houses don't have the Hubble telescope on them.
42:21
Speaker 1: Nobody likes a smart alec or I know what all,
42:24
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, Well.
42:26
Speaker 2: You're right.
42:27
Speaker 8: The cameras that you're talking about, they're not the highest
42:30
Speaker 8: of quality. I mean, look, I mean he are turned
42:32
Speaker 8: out every single day. They're in shops all over the place.
42:35
Speaker 8: It doesn't mean that it's going to be a great quality.
42:38
Speaker 3: Did Brian Coberger's parents suspect their son? An explosive new
42:43
Speaker 3: book suggests family knew more than they ever let on
42:47
Speaker 3: about their troubled son.
42:48
Speaker 2: Howard Bloom.
42:50
Speaker 1: His book is so talk full of evidence and facts
42:54
Speaker 1: supporting what many of us have been thinking and pondering.
43:00
Speaker 2: So much more. When the night comes.
43:01
Speaker 1: Falling my Howard to Bloom, Howard, we were just talking
43:04
Speaker 1: to Joe Scott Morgan about why the FBI could not
43:08
Speaker 1: enhance that video.
43:11
Speaker 2: Better than it did? I get it? But I heard
43:13
Speaker 2: you saying something in the background. What was that?
43:15
Speaker 4: Well, not only couldn't they enhance the video, the FBI
43:19
Speaker 4: has this program that they developed really for anti terrorism activities,
43:24
Speaker 4: and they tried three different times to analyze the car,
43:29
Speaker 4: and they got three different years. Originally they had the
43:32
Speaker 4: car was not a Hondai, a Lantra. They made a
43:35
Speaker 4: Nissan CenTra, and then finally there was a twenty eleven,
43:40
Speaker 4: and then it's twenty thirteen, and then they finally play
43:42
Speaker 4: at the end said twenty eleven to twenty fifteen. I
43:46
Speaker 4: can assure you the FBI's fumblings will come up in court.
43:50
Speaker 4: I'm sure your fins will raise this and try to
43:53
Speaker 4: impugne the identification of the car.
43:56
Speaker 1: Okay, wait a minute, Wait a minute, Wait a minute.
43:58
Speaker 1: The FBI fumbling. I don't see them fumbling here. What
44:03
Speaker 1: do you mean by that?
44:03
Speaker 4: Well, fumbling in the sense that their technology was just
44:07
Speaker 4: not up to snuff and they gave declarations. The first
44:10
Speaker 4: original be on the lookout notice was not for a
44:14
Speaker 4: twenty to fifteen HONDEI Alantra, It was for a twenty
44:18
Speaker 4: eleven honde Alandra.
44:20
Speaker 1: Hold On, Howard Bloom, you mentioned a detail, and I'm
44:24
Speaker 1: not sure if you thought I was just gonna ignore
44:26
Speaker 1: it or didn't catch it, but you said the FBI
44:33
Speaker 1: was trying to enhance They tried it three times, I
44:36
Speaker 1: believe you said. But are you referring to the type
44:42
Speaker 1: of video surveillance that was ultimately introduced in the Kyle
44:48
Speaker 1: Rittenhouse case, where we had satellite surveillance from nearly nine
44:55
Speaker 1: thousand feet in the air to figure out what really
45:00
Speaker 1: happened and there was video, did the FBI go to
45:06
Speaker 1: the extent of grabbing SAT video?
45:09
Speaker 4: So this was much more rudimentary. What they had was
45:13
Speaker 4: the surveillance photograph, and they tried to enhance it. These
45:17
Speaker 4: were grainy photographs and they thought they run them through
45:20
Speaker 4: this machine, this process, this computer program that was developed
45:25
Speaker 4: at vast expense by the Department of Defense, Defense and
45:28
Speaker 4: Homeland Security, originally for terrorism activities, and they thought they
45:32
Speaker 4: could get the identity of the car, and then they
45:34
Speaker 4: passed it out in their original be on the lookout
45:37
Speaker 4: at the Moscow police sent nationwide for a twenty eleven
45:43
Speaker 4: to twenty thirteen Conde a Lantra that was a mistake.
45:47
Speaker 4: That wasn't the year of the car they ultimately decided
45:50
Speaker 4: was Coburg.
45:51
Speaker 1: Guys, we are speaking to an all star panel, including
45:56
Speaker 1: author Howard Bloom, who has just finished book When the
46:00
Speaker 1: Night Comes Falling a Requiem for the Idaho student murders.
46:05
Speaker 1: To my panel, I want to thank you for kindly
46:09
Speaker 1: agreeing to join us again, because we've barely scratched the
46:14
Speaker 1: surface of the evidence, how it was accumulated and what
46:18
Speaker 1: does it mean with Howard Bloom, for instance, have we
46:23
Speaker 1: found a receipt for the outfit Brian Coburger purchased in
46:29
Speaker 1: war during the murders.
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Speaker 2: There's so much more. Please join us.
46:35
Speaker 1: With the same all star panel, including Howard Bloom, as we,
46:40
Speaker 1: like the investigators comb through the coburger evidence. Thank you
46:45
Speaker 1: to our guests for being with us tonight and illuminating
46:50
Speaker 1: the mysterious facts surrounding a quadruple murder of four beautiful students.
47:00
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us as we search for the
47:03
Speaker 1: truth that will hopefully result in a true verdict.
47:08
Speaker 2: Nancy Gray signing off, goodbye friend,