Latest / The Science Diplomat / S1E7: Brando Okolo on science diplomacy, African innovation, and building scientific power

Transcript

S1E7: Brando Okolo on science diplomacy, African innovation, and building scientific power · The Science Diplomat

0:05
SPEAKER_02: For decades, International
0:06
SPEAKER_02: Scientific Cooperation has focused
0:08
SPEAKER_02: on one central question.
0:10
SPEAKER_02: How do we produce more knowledge?
0:12
SPEAKER_02: But what really happens after
0:15
SPEAKER_02: we do produce this knowledge?
0:17
SPEAKER_02: Who can turn research into
0:18
SPEAKER_02: technology, who's building the
0:20
SPEAKER_02: companies, who's manufacturing,
0:22
SPEAKER_02: who owns the intellectual property,
0:24
SPEAKER_02: and who shapes the standards that
0:26
SPEAKER_02: can define the future?
1:02
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
1:05
SPEAKER_02: Well, you've spent close to three
1:07
SPEAKER_02: decades building your career as
1:09
SPEAKER_02: a scientist, professor,
1:12
SPEAKER_02: entrepreneur, and a technology
1:13
SPEAKER_02: executive.
1:14
SPEAKER_02: That's quite a lot of things that
1:15
SPEAKER_02: you've been working on.
1:16
SPEAKER_02: And today, you're helping shape
1:18
SPEAKER_02: science, technology, and innovation
1:20
SPEAKER_02: policy.
1:21
SPEAKER_02: Looking back, was there maybe a
1:23
SPEAKER_02: point where you realized that your
1:25
SPEAKER_02: largest contribution might not be
1:27
SPEAKER_02: in making discoveries, but building
1:29
SPEAKER_02: systems that can allow people
1:31
SPEAKER_02: to turn science into development?
1:32
SPEAKER_00: Well, frankly, I have to say that
1:34
SPEAKER_00: the thought about shaping
1:36
SPEAKER_00: scientific policy never
1:39
SPEAKER_00: occurred to me until about three
1:40
SPEAKER_00: years ago when I started working in
1:42
SPEAKER_00: the field of hydrogen.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: And I got a chance to
1:45
SPEAKER_00: be part of a consortium of
1:47
SPEAKER_00: a team working on green hydrogen
1:49
SPEAKER_00: across the African continent.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: And we worked with the
1:53
SPEAKER_00: GIZ, the German Development
1:55
SPEAKER_00: Agency, you probably know them, to
1:57
SPEAKER_00: do a feasibility
1:59
SPEAKER_00: study on Nigeria,
2:01
SPEAKER_00: on how the green
2:03
SPEAKER_00: hydrogen landscape looks
2:05
SPEAKER_00: like and what the
2:07
SPEAKER_00: off-tick market for green hydrogen
2:09
SPEAKER_00: within Nigeria would look like.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: For me, that was a critical
2:13
SPEAKER_00: starting point in terms of thinking
2:15
SPEAKER_00: about policy and going beyond
2:17
SPEAKER_00: Nigeria to think about what
2:19
SPEAKER_00: policy looks like
2:21
SPEAKER_00: and who's making policy
2:23
SPEAKER_00: for Africa in terms of science,
2:25
SPEAKER_00: technology and innovation.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: And then came the opportunity last
2:28
SPEAKER_00: year to join the Africa Union.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
2:32
SPEAKER_03: You've talked about stepping into
2:34
SPEAKER_03: policy the past three years.
2:36
SPEAKER_03: So the Africa Union and the European
2:38
SPEAKER_03: Union Innovation Agenda is one
2:40
SPEAKER_03: of the clearest current frameworks.
2:43
SPEAKER_03: What would have to change before you
2:45
SPEAKER_03: would describe an Africa-Europe
2:47
SPEAKER_03: scientific partnership as
2:50
SPEAKER_03: genuinely equal?
2:51
SPEAKER_03: What does equality look like
2:53
SPEAKER_03: from both ends?
2:56
SPEAKER_00: Well, for me, equality would
2:58
SPEAKER_00: mean that you have an equal flow
3:00
SPEAKER_00: of scientific assets,
3:03
SPEAKER_00: both from the African side
3:05
SPEAKER_00: to the European side.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: The mobility of scientists has to
3:08
SPEAKER_00: be friction-free both ways,
3:10
SPEAKER_00: in my opinion, and the buildup of
3:13
SPEAKER_00: science infrastructure has to
3:15
SPEAKER_00: be equal as well.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: It means if Europe says
3:18
SPEAKER_00: that we'd like to engage Africa
3:21
SPEAKER_00: in the health sector, for instance,
3:23
SPEAKER_00: europe should also invest in
3:25
SPEAKER_00: the demand end of that market,
3:28
SPEAKER_00: in this case, the African end of it,
3:29
SPEAKER_00: to build up infrastructure that
3:31
SPEAKER_00: helps support research in the health
3:33
SPEAKER_00: sector.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: I also think that we
3:35
SPEAKER_00: currently have a unique opportunity
3:37
SPEAKER_00: for Europe to project
3:38
SPEAKER_00: into the future, a future
3:40
SPEAKER_00: where one out of every
3:42
SPEAKER_00: three workers globally
3:45
SPEAKER_00: will be African.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: About 25 years from now, I think
3:48
SPEAKER_00: Europe to start building up the
3:50
SPEAKER_00: architecture, the relationship,
3:52
SPEAKER_00: the infrastructure that
3:54
SPEAKER_00: would allow it engage with
3:56
SPEAKER_00: that kind of demographic dividend
3:59
SPEAKER_00: 25 years from now.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: So for me that is what
4:02
SPEAKER_00: science or equity within science
4:04
SPEAKER_00: based on the relationship with
4:06
SPEAKER_00: Europe and Africa,
4:08
SPEAKER_00: there's a lot to be done, but we
4:09
SPEAKER_00: need to start somewhere and we need
4:11
SPEAKER_00: to be very deliberate in how we
4:13
SPEAKER_00: mold that relationship.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: The AU-EU Innovation Agenda
4:19
SPEAKER_00: is only one instrument out
4:21
SPEAKER_00: of a multitude of instruments where
4:23
SPEAKER_00: Europe has science-based
4:25
SPEAKER_00: contact points with Africa.
4:27
SPEAKER_00: We also have, as you probably know,
4:29
SPEAKER_00: we have the Science Granting
4:32
SPEAKER_00: Council Initiative.
4:33
SPEAKER_00: We have European entities within
4:35
SPEAKER_00: that initiative.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: It is driven by Africans,
4:38
SPEAKER_00: but Europe has a seat within
4:40
SPEAKER_00: that initiative.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: Of course, we also have energy
4:45
SPEAKER_00: partnerships between Europe and
4:46
SPEAKER_00: Africa.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: We have
4:48
SPEAKER_00: climate-based partnerships between
4:50
SPEAKER_00: Europe an Africa.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: And these contact points should be
4:53
SPEAKER_00: deliberately developed to
4:55
SPEAKER_00: signify equity in the relationship.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of curious how your
5:01
SPEAKER_01: personal geography shapes your
5:03
SPEAKER_01: job now, because you were
5:05
SPEAKER_01: talking about going from Nigeria to
5:07
SPEAKER_01: the UK and now
5:10
SPEAKER_01: Germany for 26 years,
5:12
SPEAKER_01: and now you split your time between
5:13
SPEAKER_01: Johannesburg and Karlsruhe.
5:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering, how does that affect
5:17
SPEAKER_01: your role?
5:18
SPEAKER_01: What insights, what things have you
5:19
SPEAKER_01: learned that you wouldn't have known
5:22
SPEAKER_01: in terms of your role now.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay, probably what doesn't
5:26
SPEAKER_00: appear in my resume is that
5:28
SPEAKER_00: I actually spent five years in
5:29
SPEAKER_00: Egypt.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I spent five years in Egypt at
5:34
SPEAKER_00: the German university in Cairo
5:35
SPEAKER_00: building up faculty.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: And that was also an experience
5:39
SPEAKER_00: which has come in handy today,
5:40
SPEAKER_00: especially in terms of how I engage
5:43
SPEAKER_00: the northern countries, the northern
5:44
SPEAKER_00: African countries in terms of
5:46
SPEAKER_00: science, technology and innovation.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: My stay in Leeds is critical,
5:50
SPEAKER_00: critical because it gave me an
5:52
SPEAKER_00: insight into how
5:54
SPEAKER_00: that was my first insight into how
5:56
SPEAKER_00: European science architecture
5:58
SPEAKER_00: is designed and how
6:00
SPEAKER_00: Europe does science.
6:01
SPEAKER_00: Then moving into Germany and
6:03
SPEAKER_00: at the Max Planck Institute where
6:06
SPEAKER_00: the definition
6:07
SPEAKER_00: of science in my opinion cannot be
6:10
SPEAKER_00: purer than that.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: And so it is so far the
6:13
SPEAKER_00: cumulative value of these
6:15
SPEAKER_00: experiences helps me
6:17
SPEAKER_00: in no little way to
6:19
SPEAKER_00: to do my job.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: And that job requires being
6:22
SPEAKER_00: both a scientist and
6:24
SPEAKER_00: acting in a certain diplomatic
6:26
SPEAKER_00: fashion when I engage
6:27
SPEAKER_00: with Africa's partners, not just
6:29
SPEAKER_00: the European partners, but also
6:31
SPEAKER_00: the Asian partners, the North
6:33
SPEAKER_00: American partners, the Middle
6:35
SPEAKER_00: Eastern partners, and the
6:37
SPEAKER_00: partners that we find in the Far
6:39
SPEAKER_00: East.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: These experiences are
6:40
SPEAKER_00: critical.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: Without the experiences
6:42
SPEAKER_00: I've had so far, in my opinion,
6:44
SPEAKER_00: the barrier to execution
6:47
SPEAKER_00: would be a lot higher than I have
6:48
SPEAKER_00: now.
6:51
SPEAKER_02: In many places, science diplomacy
6:52
SPEAKER_02: is still talked about mainly
6:54
SPEAKER_02: as cooperation,
6:57
SPEAKER_02: dialogue, and trust.
6:59
SPEAKER_02: From your perspective,
7:01
SPEAKER_02: do you think it also
7:04
SPEAKER_02: has to include development,
7:06
SPEAKER_02: industrial capacity, and
7:08
SPEAKER_02: influence over global decisions?
7:11
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I think the current definition
7:14
SPEAKER_00: of science diplomacy is a bit
7:15
SPEAKER_00: narrow.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure if you've read
7:18
SPEAKER_00: the European position on
7:19
SPEAKER_00: science diplomacy.
7:21
SPEAKER_00: It was published last year and
7:23
SPEAKER_00: that document carefully articulates
7:25
SPEAKER_00: what science diplomacy does mean for
7:27
SPEAKER_00: Europe.
7:27
SPEAKER_00: Africa does at the moment,
7:29
SPEAKER_00: we're still building up our
7:30
SPEAKER_00: definition of what science diplomacy
7:32
SPEAKER_00: is.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: And that definition
7:34
SPEAKER_00: is really broad.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: Covers some of the things you've
7:38
SPEAKER_00: mentioned, industrial cooperation,
7:41
SPEAKER_00: covers cooperation in the
7:42
SPEAKER_00: communication sector, in the health
7:44
SPEAKER_00: sector, in the energy sector.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: Everywhere where you can find
7:49
SPEAKER_00: a dot representing science,
7:51
SPEAKER_00: diplomacy should be in a position
7:54
SPEAKER_00: to choreograph relationships
7:56
SPEAKER_00: around that dot.
7:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure if you know about the
8:00
SPEAKER_00: Single Kilometre Array based
8:02
SPEAKER_00: in South Africa, in the Karoo region
8:04
SPEAKER_00: of South Africa.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: That region houses the
8:07
SPEAKER_00: world's biggest radio
8:09
SPEAKER_00: telescope and it required
8:11
SPEAKER_00: science diplomacy to be able to
8:13
SPEAKER_00: set up that facility.
8:15
SPEAKER_00: We have 15 countries that are part
8:17
SPEAKER_00: of it, both African countries and
8:19
SPEAKER_00: non-African countries that are a
8:20
SPEAKER_00: part of it.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: And it's not something
8:22
SPEAKER_00: that happens with the snap of a
8:24
SPEAKER_00: finger.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: It's something that happens with
8:27
SPEAKER_00: intense negotiations.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: It's something that happens with
8:30
SPEAKER_00: being able to identify who the
8:33
SPEAKER_00: strategic stakeholders are,
8:36
SPEAKER_00: you know, attract them to it, the
8:37
SPEAKER_00: conversation table and then
8:40
SPEAKER_00: do the brokering work and then the
8:42
SPEAKER_00: physical things begin to happen.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: And I see that as a
8:46
SPEAKER_00: triumph of science diplomacy and
8:48
SPEAKER_00: we should be able to take
8:50
SPEAKER_00: that blueprint and
8:52
SPEAKER_00: apply that to a host of other
8:54
SPEAKER_00: things that we do, which I believe
8:56
SPEAKER_00: science diplomacy could play
8:58
SPEAKER_00: a role, including immigration.
9:02
SPEAKER_03: Amazing.
9:03
SPEAKER_03: Just to pull you back to, you've
9:05
SPEAKER_03: just mentioned your work across
9:08
SPEAKER_03: Germany, talking about your time
9:09
SPEAKER_03: in Egypt.
9:11
SPEAKER_03: And I think it was just so
9:12
SPEAKER_03: interesting that you, you know, you
9:13
SPEAKER_03: talk about Egypt and you talk about
9:15
SPEAKER_03: architecture and just what you've
9:17
SPEAKER_03: been able to, you know to
9:18
SPEAKER_03: do across working with the Planck
9:21
SPEAKER_03: Institute.
9:21
SPEAKER_03: So my question is, our and
9:23
SPEAKER_03: viewers who have listened to your
9:25
SPEAKER_03: TED talk, and listened to you talk
9:27
SPEAKER_03: about 3D printed houses and
9:29
SPEAKER_03: everything you said about how
9:31
SPEAKER_03: customizable they are and how
9:33
SPEAKER_03: durable.
9:34
SPEAKER_03: What becomes possible
9:35
SPEAKER_03: when additive manufacturing is
9:38
SPEAKER_03: combined with AI?
9:41
SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: Well, about three years ago,
9:44
SPEAKER_00: two and a half years ago roughly,
9:46
SPEAKER_00: I personally started experimenting
9:48
SPEAKER_00: with AI in the design space,
9:50
SPEAKER_00: typically in engineering design,
9:53
SPEAKER_00: leverage and computational tools,
9:55
SPEAKER_00: tools that help
9:57
SPEAKER_00: you
10:00
SPEAKER_00: define all kinds of
10:01
SPEAKER_00: specifications, edit design, as
10:03
SPEAKER_00: we call them.
10:06
SPEAKER_00: And those tools rely
10:08
SPEAKER_00: on the fact that you have a certain
10:10
SPEAKER_00: level of engineering insight.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: Now, here comes AI,
10:14
SPEAKER_00: where all you have to do is
10:15
SPEAKER_00: basically prompt what you
10:17
SPEAKER_00: think a
10:19
SPEAKER_00: certain engineering part should look
10:21
SPEAKER_00: like.
10:22
SPEAKER_00: And you see in
10:24
SPEAKER_00: real time the translation of
10:26
SPEAKER_00: a script prompt into a
10:28
SPEAKER_00: physical design.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: In my opinion, that is
10:33
SPEAKER_00: a powerful transition.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: And if we can take
10:36
SPEAKER_00: that power of being able
10:38
SPEAKER_00: to design, being able
10:41
SPEAKER_00: to, you know, via software
10:44
SPEAKER_00: refined designs and
10:46
SPEAKER_00: via software interact with
10:47
SPEAKER_00: hardware and something physical
10:49
SPEAKER_00: comes out.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: I think especially for Africa
10:52
SPEAKER_00: where industrialization
10:55
SPEAKER_00: is an important topic
10:56
SPEAKER_00: and I think AI
10:58
SPEAKER_00: tools in combination with 3D
11:00
SPEAKER_00: printing would offer
11:02
SPEAKER_00: developers and industrialists
11:04
SPEAKER_00: across Africa an opportunity to,
11:08
SPEAKER_00: I hate to use the word leapfrog, but
11:10
SPEAKER_00: to design a much
11:12
SPEAKER_00: shorter path from
11:14
SPEAKER_00: non-industrialization to
11:15
SPEAKER_00: industrialization, in my
11:17
SPEAKER_00: opinion.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: And it's something which
11:19
SPEAKER_00: I'm also advocating for
11:21
SPEAKER_00: in my current work.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: In my current work, I'm
11:25
SPEAKER_00: very vocal about how
11:27
SPEAKER_00: developers and people involved
11:29
SPEAKER_00: in production, people involved in
11:31
SPEAKER_00: manufacturing across
11:33
SPEAKER_00: the African continent should
11:35
SPEAKER_00: really leverage on
11:37
SPEAKER_00: what AI and
11:39
SPEAKER_00: 3D printing and other manufacturing
11:41
SPEAKER_00: processes like high-speed machining.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: Africa has a unique opportunity, in
11:44
SPEAKER_00: my opinion, an opportunity
11:47
SPEAKER_00: that is significantly
11:49
SPEAKER_00: different from what you would find
11:51
SPEAKER_00: in the Global North and
11:52
SPEAKER_00: in industrialized countries where
11:54
SPEAKER_00: investment into really heavy
11:56
SPEAKER_00: machinery is heavy.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: Africa doesn't have to go through
12:00
SPEAKER_00: that.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: So, software takes
12:03
SPEAKER_00: care of a lot of things in
12:04
SPEAKER_00: your manufacturing process.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: And today we have machinery that
12:08
SPEAKER_00: are easy to acquire,
12:10
SPEAKER_00: easy to maintain, easy to operate.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: And some of those machinery, with
12:14
SPEAKER_00: the right engineering background,
12:16
SPEAKER_00: you can actually design
12:19
SPEAKER_00: new functionalities into those
12:20
SPEAKER_00: machineries.
12:22
SPEAKER_00: It sounds complicated,
12:23
SPEAKER_00: but it's not.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: Until you start doing it, you
12:25
SPEAKER_00: actually see that it's not
12:27
SPEAKER_00: complicated.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: I watched the same Ted talk that you
12:29
SPEAKER_01: gave, and it was striking
12:31
SPEAKER_01: just how excited you were.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: And I caught some of that excitement
12:35
SPEAKER_01: as you were talking, and I wondered
12:38
SPEAKER_01: what got you excited
12:39
SPEAKER_01: about this?
12:40
SPEAKER_01: Are you still as excited as you
12:42
SPEAKER_01: seem to be about 3D printing?
12:45
SPEAKER_01: And you started to talk about making
12:47
SPEAKER_01: this technology accessible, but
12:49
SPEAKER_01: how realistic is it
12:51
SPEAKER_01: that you could get to
12:53
SPEAKER_01: this vision that you see for
12:55
SPEAKER_01: the advent of 3D printing around
12:57
SPEAKER_01: the continent.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: I think globally, the kind of
13:01
SPEAKER_00: uptake we had expected in
13:03
SPEAKER_00: the 3D printing world from industry,
13:05
SPEAKER_00: we're not there yet.
13:07
SPEAKER_00: But there are quite a number of
13:08
SPEAKER_00: things which 3D printing already
13:10
SPEAKER_00: completely takes care of.
13:12
SPEAKER_00: An example is the hearing aid.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: In the hearing aid industry,
13:16
SPEAKER_00: we almost have a 100% translation
13:19
SPEAKER_00: of 3D printing,
13:21
SPEAKER_00: where with a
13:22
SPEAKER_00: scanning device, you're able to get
13:24
SPEAKER_00: information about the contour
13:26
SPEAKER_00: of the patient's ears and you use
13:28
SPEAKER_00: that information to design
13:31
SPEAKER_00: the casing, and
13:33
SPEAKER_00: then do the electronic embedding
13:35
SPEAKER_00: that goes into hearing aids.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm still very much excited about
13:39
SPEAKER_00: the 3D printing.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: I firmly believe that the
13:43
SPEAKER_00: attempt to decentralize
13:45
SPEAKER_00: manufacturing would especially
13:48
SPEAKER_00: be driven by tools like 3D
13:50
SPEAKER_00: printing.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: It
13:53
SPEAKER_00: allows you to define the
13:55
SPEAKER_00: specifications of a product and
13:57
SPEAKER_00: send that information to
13:59
SPEAKER_00: a 3D printer anywhere in
14:01
SPEAKER_00: the world via some kind of
14:03
SPEAKER_00: a digital transmission and
14:05
SPEAKER_00: the hardware software starts
14:06
SPEAKER_00: producing that part.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: Just think about the phenomenal
14:09
SPEAKER_00: nature of that, that
14:12
SPEAKER_00: I could be designing for
14:14
SPEAKER_00: clients that are based in
14:16
SPEAKER_00: India and a
14:17
SPEAKER_00: machine somewhere in India starts
14:19
SPEAKER_00: producing that exact
14:21
SPEAKER_00: component for that client.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: It's again, it's a field where
14:27
SPEAKER_00: essentially every endeavor,
14:29
SPEAKER_00: both in the medical sector, the
14:31
SPEAKER_00: agricultural sector,
14:33
SPEAKER_00: the information technology sector,
14:35
SPEAKER_00: the energy sector, climate and
14:37
SPEAKER_00: environment sector, can easily
14:39
SPEAKER_00: benefit from this
14:41
SPEAKER_00: technology to do all kinds
14:43
SPEAKER_00: of things.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: Just imagine the
14:45
SPEAKER_00: Airbus A350 XWB has over
14:47
SPEAKER_00: 1,000 parts that are 3D printed,
14:49
SPEAKER_00: and those parts are airworthy.
14:52
SPEAKER_00: Think about it.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: Wow, I didn't know that.
14:55
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if
14:57
SPEAKER_02: you've noticed, but many countries
14:59
SPEAKER_02: seem to celebrate scientific output
15:02
SPEAKER_02: but are still dependent on
15:04
SPEAKER_02: others for manufacturing IP
15:06
SPEAKER_02: and the rules that are
15:09
SPEAKER_02: governing these emerging
15:10
SPEAKER_02: technologies.
15:11
SPEAKER_02: What do you think separates systems
15:14
SPEAKER_02: that can produce knowledge from
15:16
SPEAKER_02: systems that can actually convert
15:19
SPEAKER_02: that knowledge into
15:21
SPEAKER_02: lasting technology.
15:24
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think investment in research
15:26
SPEAKER_00: is critical, really.
15:28
SPEAKER_00: If you look very well,
15:30
SPEAKER_00: those countries globally that
15:32
SPEAKER_00: invest in research are
15:34
SPEAKER_00: top-tier players in terms of
15:36
SPEAKER_00: innovation.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: There's a correlation there
15:40
SPEAKER_00: that if you invest more in research,
15:43
SPEAKER_00: one of the key dividends of that is
15:45
SPEAKER_00: being able to be a technology
15:47
SPEAKER_00: champion.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: The United States, as an example.
15:50
SPEAKER_00: Historically, the U.S.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: has invested heavily in
15:54
SPEAKER_00: R&D.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: And we see the dividends, not just
15:57
SPEAKER_00: based on what's coming out of
15:58
SPEAKER_00: Silicon Valley, but across
16:00
SPEAKER_00: different labs around the
16:02
SPEAKER_00: United States, where
16:05
SPEAKER_00: the assets
16:07
SPEAKER_00: of IP is leveraged
16:08
SPEAKER_00: on, to come up with new
16:10
SPEAKER_00: products in the market.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: And we see that in China as well.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: If you look at the publication
16:16
SPEAKER_00: history of China,
16:18
SPEAKER_00: I just give an example.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: In the electric
16:22
SPEAKER_00: battery sector for EVs, so
16:24
SPEAKER_00: batteries for EVs.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: In the late '90s,
16:27
SPEAKER_00: when you look at the
16:29
SPEAKER_00: two dimensional plot of
16:32
SPEAKER_00: the number of publications over
16:34
SPEAKER_00: time for
16:36
SPEAKER_00: China in the batteries
16:38
SPEAKER_00: for EVs sector, in the
16:39
SPEAKER_00: 90s there was almost nothing on
16:41
SPEAKER_00: that plot.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: Then somewhere between 2003-2005
16:46
SPEAKER_00: we began to see a lot
16:48
SPEAKER_00: of researchers publishing in
16:51
SPEAKER_00: field of batteries for EVs coming
16:54
SPEAKER_00: out of Chinese labs.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: China has the largest
16:58
SPEAKER_00: research output in
17:00
SPEAKER_00: batteries, and
17:02
SPEAKER_00: also makes most of the batteries
17:04
SPEAKER_00: we use around the world for our EVs,
17:07
SPEAKER_00: just so you see the correlation
17:08
SPEAKER_00: there.
17:09
SPEAKER_00: And it's the same for a
17:11
SPEAKER_00: whole lot of other applications
17:13
SPEAKER_00: where there is a correlation
17:15
SPEAKER_00: between your investment
17:17
SPEAKER_00: in research and the ability
17:19
SPEAKER_00: to be a global champion
17:21
SPEAKER_00: for a certain technology.
17:24
SPEAKER_03: I think you've had such a unique
17:25
SPEAKER_03: perspective working across,
17:28
SPEAKER_03: you know, China, Africa,
17:30
SPEAKER_03: and I think there are just so
17:31
SPEAKER_03: many different correlations.
17:34
SPEAKER_03: And what most people would
17:36
SPEAKER_03: want to know is what do
17:38
SPEAKER_03: Europe and China still misunderstand
17:40
SPEAKER_03: about Africa's
17:42
SPEAKER_03: scientific and technological
17:44
SPEAKER_03: ambitions?
17:45
SPEAKER_03: And what do institutions
17:47
SPEAKER_03: sometimes misunderstand
17:49
SPEAKER_03: about how the European
17:51
SPEAKER_03: and maybe Chinese science
17:52
SPEAKER_03: and industry actually function
17:54
SPEAKER_03: on the ground.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: So, you probably
17:58
SPEAKER_00: know that from
18:00
SPEAKER_00: early 2000, the Chinese
18:02
SPEAKER_00: have deliberately started building
18:04
SPEAKER_00: up a very unique type of
18:06
SPEAKER_00: relationship with Africa.
18:08
SPEAKER_00: That relationship started off
18:10
SPEAKER_00: from sales of
18:11
SPEAKER_00: all kinds of consumer products,
18:14
SPEAKER_00: toys,
18:17
SPEAKER_00: and then transitioned into
18:19
SPEAKER_00: sales of industrial
18:21
SPEAKER_00: components, power tools
18:24
SPEAKER_00: used in manufacturing and all
18:26
SPEAKER_00: that.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: And then somewhere around
18:30
SPEAKER_00: 2010-2015,
18:32
SPEAKER_00: we began to see China
18:34
SPEAKER_00: giving scholarships to
18:36
SPEAKER_00: Africans to come to China
18:39
SPEAKER_00: to do science
18:41
SPEAKER_00: and be co-publishers
18:43
SPEAKER_00: within China's scientific
18:45
SPEAKER_00: enterprise.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: And the dividends are being seen.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: When you look at
18:49
SPEAKER_00: Africa's
18:53
SPEAKER_00: publication output or research
18:55
SPEAKER_00: and innovation position
18:57
SPEAKER_00: with respect to the rest of the
18:59
SPEAKER_00: world, in the '90s,
19:01
SPEAKER_00: the epicenter of that relationship
19:03
SPEAKER_00: was somewhere around
19:05
SPEAKER_00: Spain.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: And being somewhere around Spain, it
19:09
SPEAKER_00: spreads out to the relationship with
19:11
SPEAKER_00: North America, with the U.K., and
19:12
SPEAKER_00: all that, somewhere.
19:14
SPEAKER_00: But that epicenter, as we speak
19:15
SPEAKER_00: today, has moved eastwards
19:18
SPEAKER_00: significantly.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: We're beginning to see a lot of
19:21
SPEAKER_00: publications coming out of Chinese
19:23
SPEAKER_00: labs with Africans as
19:24
SPEAKER_00: co-authors.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: We're beginning to see publications
19:28
SPEAKER_00: coming out of South Korea, from
19:30
SPEAKER_00: Japan, from India,
19:32
SPEAKER_00: with Africans as co
19:34
SPEAKER_00: authors.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: And what this means is
19:36
SPEAKER_00: that Africa has
19:38
SPEAKER_00: more options.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: That's what it means.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: Not that Africa's relationship
19:44
SPEAKER_00: with Europe
19:47
SPEAKER_00: or with North America has
19:49
SPEAKER_00: been diluted.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: No.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: It means that Africa has
19:52
SPEAKER_00: more options.
19:53
SPEAKER_00: And I especially think in
19:55
SPEAKER_00: terms of its relationship with
19:57
SPEAKER_00: Europe, that
19:59
SPEAKER_00: Europe should begin to see Africa
20:01
SPEAKER_00: as an investment,
20:03
SPEAKER_00: and Africa should see Europe as
20:05
SPEAKER_00: an investment as well.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: If Europe fails, it's
20:09
SPEAKER_00: not in Africa's interest.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: And if Africa fails,
20:12
SPEAKER_00: it's not in Europe's interest.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: Now, with that, it's
20:18
SPEAKER_00: left for both parties to
20:20
SPEAKER_00: deliberately think about how
20:22
SPEAKER_00: they can work on their co-existence
20:25
SPEAKER_00: without one feeling cheated,
20:28
SPEAKER_00: so to say, by the other.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: I just want again to transport us
20:33
SPEAKER_00: to 25 years from now.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: Twenty-five years from now,
20:37
SPEAKER_00: we're going to have a
20:40
SPEAKER_00: world order where
20:43
SPEAKER_00: one out of eveory three workers
20:45
SPEAKER_00: is going to be an African.
20:47
SPEAKER_00: One out of every fourth
20:49
SPEAKER_00: youth in this world will
20:51
SPEAKER_00: be an African, but even more
20:53
SPEAKER_00: importantly, we're going to
20:55
SPEAKER_00: have a completely
20:57
SPEAKER_00: new trade bloc consisting of
20:59
SPEAKER_00: China, India,
21:01
SPEAKER_00: and Africa.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: There's a certain imminency to that
21:05
SPEAKER_00: and it's something which even policy
21:07
SPEAKER_00: cannot eliminate.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: You could slow it down, but you
21:11
SPEAKER_00: might not stop it completely simply
21:13
SPEAKER_00: because of the size.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: Twenty-five years from now you're
21:16
SPEAKER_00: going to have a new market size of
21:18
SPEAKER_00: about 5.5 billion people
21:21
SPEAKER_00: within an India, China and
21:22
SPEAKER_00: Africa market space, and
21:24
SPEAKER_00: it's an attractive market space.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: Europe has to see itself being
21:31
SPEAKER_00: in that market, either through its
21:32
SPEAKER_00: relationship with Africa or
21:34
SPEAKER_00: through its relationship with India.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: This is really, really interesting
21:37
SPEAKER_01: to me, and the things that you're
21:39
SPEAKER_01: saying make
21:41
SPEAKER_01: me wonder exactly based
21:43
SPEAKER_01: on what you just said, how
21:44
SPEAKER_01: that influences your view of science
21:46
SPEAKER_01: diplomacy at this point.
21:48
SPEAKER_01: Because you've sat inside
21:51
SPEAKER_01: both the AU system and
21:52
SPEAKER_01: Europe's research and industrial
21:54
SPEAKER_01: world.
21:54
SPEAKER_01: And, but as you said,
21:58
SPEAKER_01: there's huge changes underfoot
22:00
SPEAKER_01: especially in Africa.
22:01
SPEAKER_01: So you gave a class, a master class,
22:03
SPEAKER_01: I noticed, toward the end of last
22:04
SPEAKER_01: year on science diplomacy.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: And so I wonder, how
22:08
SPEAKER_01: does this change your view of
22:09
SPEAKER_01: science diplomacy?
22:13
SPEAKER_00: Well, I see science diplomacy at
22:15
SPEAKER_00: the end of the day as relationship
22:17
SPEAKER_00: building, really, because it
22:19
SPEAKER_00: takes a relationship for you to
22:21
SPEAKER_00: broker, for you reach
22:23
SPEAKER_00: an agreement.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: And most scientists
22:27
SPEAKER_00: are undiplomatic, and most
22:29
SPEAKER_00: diplomats are not scientific.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: This is a fact.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: And so I think
22:34
SPEAKER_00: that in,
22:37
SPEAKER_00: I think we have an opportunity to
22:39
SPEAKER_00: begin to look at science diplomacy
22:41
SPEAKER_00: as
22:44
SPEAKER_00: a standalone discipline where
22:47
SPEAKER_00: we build curriculum that
22:48
SPEAKER_00: fully represents what
22:50
SPEAKER_00: a science diplomat should be doing.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: There is no university, there is
22:54
SPEAKER_00: no high school where you're taught
22:56
SPEAKER_00: how to be a science diplomat.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: So, but we've seen what science
23:01
SPEAKER_00: diplomacy can achieve.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: So why don't we deliberately
23:05
SPEAKER_00: structure curriculum that
23:07
SPEAKER_00: would allow us begin to train more
23:09
SPEAKER_00: human beings, more people, on
23:11
SPEAKER_00: how to be science diplomats.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: If you recall, I mentioned to
23:15
SPEAKER_00: you, John, that in
23:17
SPEAKER_00: my work over the last one year
23:19
SPEAKER_00: and three months with the
23:21
SPEAKER_00: African Union, there is even a
23:23
SPEAKER_00: much bigger component I'm beginning
23:24
SPEAKER_00: to see, especially for Africa,
23:27
SPEAKER_00: where if you look at the continent,
23:29
SPEAKER_00: what this continent needs is cash
23:31
SPEAKER_00: flow.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: And cash flow means that the
23:35
SPEAKER_00: innovation hubs across Africa,
23:38
SPEAKER_00: the start-up world of
23:40
SPEAKER_00: Africa, which today attracted
23:42
SPEAKER_00: in 2025, about
23:44
SPEAKER_00: five billion U.S. dollars.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: We do have African unicorns
23:48
SPEAKER_00: that were once startups, but
23:50
SPEAKER_00: the valuation has gone beyond
23:52
SPEAKER_00: a billion U.S. dollars.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: The continent needs to see itself
23:56
SPEAKER_00: in a position where the
23:58
SPEAKER_00: entrepreneurial component of
24:00
SPEAKER_00: pursuing the scientific enterprise
24:02
SPEAKER_00: should be highlighted.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: So I'm beginning to see a science
24:05
SPEAKER_00: diplomat who has an
24:07
SPEAKER_00: understanding of
24:09
SPEAKER_00: entrepreneurship.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: Because those fantastic
24:13
SPEAKER_00: research outputs
24:15
SPEAKER_00: need to be driven by an
24:16
SPEAKER_00: entrepreneur.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: It really has to be driven by
24:19
SPEAKER_00: entrepreneur.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: So you're either creating them in
24:21
SPEAKER_00: scientific classrooms or you're
24:23
SPEAKER_00: creating them somewhere
24:25
SPEAKER_00: within innovation hubs.
24:27
SPEAKER_00: This is one area where we're
24:29
SPEAKER_00: currently deliberately trying to
24:31
SPEAKER_00: develop programs that would
24:33
SPEAKER_00: emphasize the role
24:35
SPEAKER_00: of entrepreneurship in
24:37
SPEAKER_00: how Africa does science.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
24:43
SPEAKER_01: A follow on that.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: Do you consider - this is The
24:45
SPEAKER_01: Science Diplomat Podcast - do you
24:47
SPEAKER_01: consider yourself a science
24:48
SPEAKER_01: diplomat?
24:51
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know I was one until the
24:52
SPEAKER_00: beginning of this year, yeah, I
24:54
SPEAKER_00: never did until the beginning of the
24:55
SPEAKER_00: year.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: And you mentioned the
24:56
SPEAKER_00: masterclass.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: In preparing for that
24:58
SPEAKER_00: masterclass, I basically had to
25:00
SPEAKER_00: do a lot of background work,
25:02
SPEAKER_00: you know, to be able to begin to see
25:04
SPEAKER_00: myself in that role,
25:06
SPEAKER_00: that as a lead
25:08
SPEAKER_00: person within Africa's
25:10
SPEAKER_00: scientific governance system,
25:12
SPEAKER_00: that I have also an obligation
25:15
SPEAKER_00: to be diplomatic
25:17
SPEAKER_00: in how I discharge my
25:19
SPEAKER_00: role as head of science, technology
25:21
SPEAKER_00: and innovation at the continental
25:22
SPEAKER_00: level.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: And so since beginning of this year,
25:27
SPEAKER_00: it's kind of got planted
25:28
SPEAKER_00: in my consciousness that you're
25:30
SPEAKER_00: actually a science diplomat.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
25:34
SPEAKER_03: It's like coming from Zambia
25:36
SPEAKER_03: and having worked in
25:39
SPEAKER_03: innovation, you're speaking about
25:41
SPEAKER_03: innovation hubs and
25:43
SPEAKER_03: the future projections as
25:44
SPEAKER_03: well as anticipations for Africa,
25:47
SPEAKER_03: I find that so fascinating,
25:49
SPEAKER_03: having run innovation
25:51
SPEAKER_03: hubs in my country and
25:53
SPEAKER_03: knowing what things look like there.
25:56
SPEAKER_03: So linking this as well to science
25:58
SPEAKER_03: diplomacy, I like that
26:00
SPEAKER_03: you say you're a science diplomat,
26:02
SPEAKER_03: because I think some people are
26:03
SPEAKER_03: like, no, I'm a scientist.
26:04
SPEAKER_03: And some people will be like, no,
26:06
SPEAKER_03: I'm actually just a diplomat.
26:08
SPEAKER_03: But it's very interesting that
26:10
SPEAKER_03: you're sitting perfectly there.
26:12
SPEAKER_03: So my question is, has Africa's
26:15
SPEAKER_03: experience changed the definition
26:17
SPEAKER_03: of science diplomacy?
26:19
SPEAKER_03: And should science diplomacy today
26:21
SPEAKER_03: also be measured by whether it
26:23
SPEAKER_03: creates manufacturing capacity
26:25
SPEAKER_03: or stronger institutions or
26:27
SPEAKER_03: economic resilience, just tying
26:29
SPEAKER_03: everything from innovations
26:32
SPEAKER_03: and future anticipations
26:33
SPEAKER_03: for Africa back to science
26:35
SPEAKER_03: diplomacy.
26:38
SPEAKER_00: So I think so, that Africa's
26:40
SPEAKER_00: current situation should actually
26:42
SPEAKER_00: change the entire concept of
26:44
SPEAKER_00: science diplomacy.
26:46
SPEAKER_00: For instance, we're currently
26:47
SPEAKER_00: pushing African countries
26:50
SPEAKER_00: to make sure that they have science
26:51
SPEAKER_00: attaches at their embassies
26:54
SPEAKER_00: around the world.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: It's important, it's important
26:56
SPEAKER_00: because there are science-based
26:59
SPEAKER_00: opportunities that are
27:01
SPEAKER_00: existing in host countries,
27:03
SPEAKER_00: but it would require somebody
27:05
SPEAKER_00: with a certain level, a diplomat
27:07
SPEAKER_00: with a set level of scientific
27:08
SPEAKER_00: appreciation to leverage
27:10
SPEAKER_00: on those opportunities to build
27:12
SPEAKER_00: relationships with the host country.
27:14
SPEAKER_00: And also within Africa itself,
27:17
SPEAKER_00: you probably know that beyond
27:18
SPEAKER_00: Addis Ababa,
27:20
SPEAKER_00: Pretoria has the largest
27:22
SPEAKER_00: number of embassies and
27:24
SPEAKER_00: consular offices in the world
27:27
SPEAKER_00: beyond
27:28
SPEAKER_00: Addis Ababa.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: Pretoria has that.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: And we see the
27:33
SPEAKER_00: presence of Pretoria
27:36
SPEAKER_00: in South Africa,
27:37
SPEAKER_00: a fairly mature scientific
27:39
SPEAKER_00: environment, as being an opportunity
27:41
SPEAKER_00: for those that drive
27:43
SPEAKER_00: science in different
27:45
SPEAKER_00: parts of the world to come
27:47
SPEAKER_00: and engage with Africa.
27:50
SPEAKER_02: We've been talking a lot about
27:52
SPEAKER_02: preparing the next
27:54
SPEAKER_02: generation to some extent and
27:56
SPEAKER_02: the environment to support
27:59
SPEAKER_02: young people.
28:00
SPEAKER_02: I wanted to ask you as an aspiring
28:02
SPEAKER_02: young scientist myself,
28:05
SPEAKER_02: many students today seem
28:07
SPEAKER_02: to have an interest in impact
28:09
SPEAKER_02: beyond the lab, whether
28:11
SPEAKER_02: it's through entrepreneurship,
28:13
SPEAKER_02: international cooperation or policy.
28:15
SPEAKER_02: Looking back at your own journey,
28:17
SPEAKER_02: what experiences outside
28:20
SPEAKER_02: technical expertise were most
28:22
SPEAKER_02: important in preparing you for
28:24
SPEAKER_02: the leadership roles you've had so
28:25
SPEAKER_02: far.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: I did say that I spent five years in
28:29
SPEAKER_00: Egypt, right?
28:30
SPEAKER_00: So I had a professorship at the
28:32
SPEAKER_00: German university in Cairo and
28:34
SPEAKER_00: one day I was seated in my office.
28:36
SPEAKER_00: There I am, 42 years
28:38
SPEAKER_00: old, and I said to myself, I want to
28:40
SPEAKER_00: do something else with my life.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: So I have a conversation with
28:43
SPEAKER_00: my wife and the outcome
28:45
SPEAKER_00: was that I quit my professorship
28:47
SPEAKER_00: and moved back to Germany and
28:49
SPEAKER_00: then set up a firm.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: And I had a friend with whom
28:53
SPEAKER_00: we sat down and he said to
28:55
SPEAKER_00: me, Brando just get me something to
28:56
SPEAKER_00: sell.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: So I started working on
29:00
SPEAKER_00: developing a new generation of 3D
29:02
SPEAKER_00: printers that would focus
29:04
SPEAKER_00: on processing on high-performance
29:05
SPEAKER_00: polymers or high-temperature
29:07
SPEAKER_00: polymers.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, we set up this
29:09
SPEAKER_00: firm that was developing
29:11
SPEAKER_00: 3D printers, software for
29:12
SPEAKER_00: 3D printers and
29:14
SPEAKER_00: new materials that would
29:16
SPEAKER_00: drive new applications on
29:18
SPEAKER_00: the back of 3D printing.
29:20
SPEAKER_00: And that was really, really
29:21
SPEAKER_00: successful.
29:22
SPEAKER_00: I did that for five
29:23
SPEAKER_00: years.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: I then
29:25
SPEAKER_00: sold my shares and moved on to set
29:27
SPEAKER_00: up an institute for a
29:29
SPEAKER_00: foundation in Germany called the
29:31
SPEAKER_00: Steinbeis-Stiftung.
29:33
SPEAKER_00: That's what I did up until February
29:34
SPEAKER_00: last year when the African Union
29:36
SPEAKER_00: hired me.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: So for me, there was
29:39
SPEAKER_00: just no way I could have had that
29:41
SPEAKER_00: level and depth of experience
29:44
SPEAKER_00: as an entrepreneur,
29:46
SPEAKER_00: as a business owner, as somebody
29:48
SPEAKER_00: within the
29:50
SPEAKER_00: leadership of
29:52
SPEAKER_00: a tech startup.
29:54
SPEAKER_00: There was no way that could have
29:55
SPEAKER_00: happened if I was still domiciled
29:58
SPEAKER_00: within the university environment,
29:59
SPEAKER_00: there's just no way.
30:02
SPEAKER_00: And so for young
30:04
SPEAKER_00: researchers, for young scientists,
30:06
SPEAKER_00: I know that remaining within
30:07
SPEAKER_00: academia provides not just the
30:09
SPEAKER_00: satisfaction that comes from doing
30:11
SPEAKER_00: science, but also
30:13
SPEAKER_00: the security that comes with
30:15
SPEAKER_00: having a paycheck at the end
30:17
SPEAKER_00: of every month.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: But
30:19
SPEAKER_00: I encourage you to be bold enough,
30:22
SPEAKER_00: I encourage you to, you know, take
30:23
SPEAKER_00: the risk, especially if you're still
30:25
SPEAKER_00: relatively young.
30:27
SPEAKER_00: To see how to move
30:29
SPEAKER_00: your scientific idea,
30:30
SPEAKER_00: your scientific output
30:33
SPEAKER_00: from the
30:36
SPEAKER_00: publication print, to move that
30:38
SPEAKER_00: into a market.
30:40
SPEAKER_00: I encourage you to do that and it is
30:42
SPEAKER_00: possible to do that.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you need to
30:46
SPEAKER_00: understand where your strengths are.
30:49
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't hurt to
30:51
SPEAKER_00: have a business partner.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: In fact, without
30:55
SPEAKER_00: the business partner, the job is
30:57
SPEAKER_00: a lot tougher, in my opinion.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: It's important to have somebody
31:01
SPEAKER_00: whose skills complement
31:03
SPEAKER_00: the skills you have as you try to
31:05
SPEAKER_00: drive scientific work into an
31:07
SPEAKER_00: active market space.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: Following up on that and getting
31:13
SPEAKER_01: back to something you mentioned
31:15
SPEAKER_01: earlier about your research
31:17
SPEAKER_01: in green hydrogen,
31:19
SPEAKER_01: I was really intrigued by that.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: I remember being at a summit a
31:23
SPEAKER_01: few years back where the head of one
31:24
SPEAKER_01: of the biggest global shipping
31:26
SPEAKER_01: companies in the world stood
31:28
SPEAKER_01: up and said basically, we bought
31:30
SPEAKER_01: a bunch of ships, we don't have
31:32
SPEAKER_01: the fuel, but if somebody wants to
31:33
SPEAKER_01: create the green hydrogen fuel,
31:36
SPEAKER_01: we'll buy it.
31:37
SPEAKER_01: It was an amazing market signal
31:39
SPEAKER_01: and I wondered where we're
31:40
SPEAKER_01: at now in that, and what you've
31:42
SPEAKER_01: learned and
31:45
SPEAKER_01: what you can say about
31:46
SPEAKER_01: that very act of standing up
31:49
SPEAKER_01: and telling markets
31:50
SPEAKER_01: that if somebody creates
31:52
SPEAKER_01: this, I'll buy.
31:57
SPEAKER_00: You know, we have more ocean liners
31:58
SPEAKER_00: running on green hydrogen
32:00
SPEAKER_00: and green ammonia today than
32:02
SPEAKER_00: we had five years ago.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: And for me, that's a major success.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: The transition to cleaner energies,
32:09
SPEAKER_00: we need to keep in mind, is
32:11
SPEAKER_00: driven by climate concerns,
32:13
SPEAKER_00: not by economic concerns.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: So, the economics
32:17
SPEAKER_00: that argues for green
32:19
SPEAKER_00: transition is
32:20
SPEAKER_00: really weak economics.
32:22
SPEAKER_00: The climate argument that
32:24
SPEAKER_00: argues for the green transition is
32:26
SPEAKER_00: very strong.
32:28
SPEAKER_00: So we need to find where the balance
32:30
SPEAKER_00: is.
32:30
SPEAKER_00: The ocean lining industry
32:32
SPEAKER_00: and the cement industry
32:34
SPEAKER_00: are two of the most biggest
32:36
SPEAKER_00: polluters of our environment
32:38
SPEAKER_00: in terms of the release
32:40
SPEAKER_00: of carbon-based molecules
32:42
SPEAKER_00: into the atmosphere.
32:44
SPEAKER_00: That's where this transition ideally
32:46
SPEAKER_00: should start from.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: They are cars today,
32:50
SPEAKER_00: cars that run on green hydrogen,
32:52
SPEAKER_00: and the fact is that petrol
32:56
SPEAKER_00: from hydrocarbons
32:59
SPEAKER_00: are still competitive in
33:00
SPEAKER_00: the market.
33:01
SPEAKER_00: This is a fact, and that
33:02
SPEAKER_00: competition is not being driven by
33:05
SPEAKER_00: the oil and gas companies.
33:07
SPEAKER_00: The competition that drives that
33:09
SPEAKER_00: is really science.
33:11
SPEAKER_00: The competition that drives the
33:14
SPEAKER_00: preference for hydrocarbons
33:16
SPEAKER_00: in machinery than the
33:18
SPEAKER_00: preference for hydrogen molecules
33:20
SPEAKER_00: in machinery is
33:22
SPEAKER_00: a scientific argument.
33:24
SPEAKER_00: So with
33:27
SPEAKER_00: a firm understanding of
33:29
SPEAKER_00: all this, the science behind
33:31
SPEAKER_00: energy transition, and where you
33:32
SPEAKER_00: should be transitioning, and
33:35
SPEAKER_00: the economics behind
33:38
SPEAKER_00: energy sufficiency and
33:39
SPEAKER_00: energy transition, should
33:41
SPEAKER_00: guide the decisions we
33:43
SPEAKER_00: make.
33:45
SPEAKER_03: So you've spoken about the
33:47
SPEAKER_03: anticipations for Africa and how
33:49
SPEAKER_03: a huge population of the world
33:51
SPEAKER_03: is going to be African youth
33:53
SPEAKER_03: within the next couple of years.
33:55
SPEAKER_03: So I want you to speak to
33:57
SPEAKER_03: that young person who's listening
33:59
SPEAKER_03: to this.
34:00
SPEAKER_03: If a young scientist came
34:01
SPEAKER_03: to you today with an ambitious
34:04
SPEAKER_03: idea, especially in
34:05
SPEAKER_03: manufacturing or 3D printing,
34:08
SPEAKER_03: what kind of ecosystem would you
34:10
SPEAKER_03: want surrounding that person to
34:11
SPEAKER_03: give them the greatest chance of
34:13
SPEAKER_03: success?
34:15
SPEAKER_00: For you to be successful, you
34:18
SPEAKER_00: should not wait for the
34:20
SPEAKER_00: circumstances to be perfect.
34:22
SPEAKER_00: Just do it and measure
34:24
SPEAKER_00: progress if you can.
34:27
SPEAKER_00: Whether the ecosystem is ready or
34:29
SPEAKER_00: not, just do it.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: If you can influence ecosystem
34:32
SPEAKER_00: readiness, do it.
34:34
SPEAKER_00: But if it's not there, just
34:37
SPEAKER_00: do it.
34:37
SPEAKER_00: Because once
34:39
SPEAKER_00: that journey starts, and you're
34:40
SPEAKER_00: persistent in that
34:42
SPEAKER_00: journey, a lot of
34:44
SPEAKER_00: things will begin to come together
34:45
SPEAKER_00: for you.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: It might not happen immediately,
34:48
SPEAKER_00: but if you're persistent and if
34:50
SPEAKER_00: you have the right convictions,
34:52
SPEAKER_00: a lot of things will come together
34:54
SPEAKER_00: for you.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: So, and also this is the message I
34:57
SPEAKER_00: have when I go around the continent,
34:59
SPEAKER_00: speaking to young people.
35:01
SPEAKER_00: Have it in your mind that the
35:03
SPEAKER_00: drive should not be for perfection,
35:06
SPEAKER_00: but for progress.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: Just see progress and then
35:09
SPEAKER_00: you know you're making the right
35:10
SPEAKER_00: impact.
35:12
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Professor Okolo,
35:14
SPEAKER_02: for joining us on the Science
35:15
SPEAKER_02: Diplomatic Podcast.
35:17
SPEAKER_02: Today's conversation has really
35:19
SPEAKER_02: brought us back to the fundamental
35:21
SPEAKER_02: question, what happens after we
35:23
SPEAKER_02: produce knowledge?
35:24
SPEAKER_02: Because scientific progress isn't
35:26
SPEAKER_02: just about the discoveries we make,
35:29
SPEAKER_02: but about whether we're building the
35:31
SPEAKER_02: institutions, the industries, and
35:33
SPEAKER_02: partnerships that can be capable of
35:35
SPEAKER_02: turning these discoveries into
35:36
SPEAKER_02: lasting change.
35:38
SPEAKER_02: And your work reminds us that
35:39
SPEAKER_02: building an innovation ecosystem is
35:41
SPEAKER_02: a process that will take patience,
35:43
SPEAKER_02: investment, and perhaps most
35:44
SPEAKER_02: importantly, the belief that
35:47
SPEAKER_02: scientific capacity is in itself
35:49
SPEAKER_02: a form of power.
35:51
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for helping us understand
35:52
SPEAKER_02: what that can look like and what it
35:54
SPEAKER_02: could mean for
35:56
SPEAKER_02: Africa's role in shaping the future
35:57
SPEAKER_02: of global science and technology.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
36:06
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.