Latest / Your Estate Matters / Episode 41 - How Do You Settle an Insolvent Estate? With Holly Palmer

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Episode 41 - How Do You Settle an Insolvent Estate? With Holly Palmer · Your Estate Matters

• 0:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: Hello, and welcome to your estate matters with your hosts, my colleague Greg Bernand, and myself Nicole Garton of Heritage Trust.
• 0:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: Your estate matters is a podcast dedicated to everything a state, including building and preserving your legacy.
• 0:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: If it's a state related, we'll be talking about it.
• 0:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: We're having the conversations today that will help Canadians protect their families, their assets, and their legacies tomorrow.
• 0:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: With us today on your estate matters is Holly Palmer, a partner with Viars Norris Penny's corporate recovery and restructuring group in Vancouver.
• 0:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: Always been with MNP since two thousand nine.
• 0:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: Always act that is a financial advisor providing strategy and transaction solutions to businesses in various jurisdictions.
• 0:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: All these specializes in providing solutions to distress companies by way of informal restructuring and acting and informal capacity in administering proposals.
• 1:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: Receiverships, bankruptcies, liquidations, and business reviews primarily in the forestry, cannabis, hospitality, real estate, and mining and metal sector.
• 1:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: All it is a chartered accountant, a chartered professional accountant, a chartered insolvency and restructuring professional, a license and solvency trustee, and has a certificate of insolvency from the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales.
• 1:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: And as a member in the insolvency Institute of Canada.
• 1:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: So Holly, tell us what yourself and your journey to your current role is a partner with MMP.
• 1:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, thanks so much, Nicole.
• 1:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really excited to be here.
• 1:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is my first podcast, so looking forward to it.
• 1:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: In Solvency is a very unique profession.
• 1:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think everybody that I've talked to that is an insolvency, kind of fell into it one way or another, which is exactly what happened to me.
• 1:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: I started out my career during my when I was take in university.
• 2:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: I started out my career as a controller for my uncle's company.
• 2:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then decided I wanted to be a real account.
• 2:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I started at a professional services firm in public practice.
• 2:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: They started us in the audit group, which is audit.
• 2:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's necessary, but it was the two thousand and eight, two thousand, nine financial crisis.
• 2:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: So lots of businesses were needing restructuring help.
• 2:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they pushed me into the Insolvency team right away.
• 2:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was out at a company by myself, basically running a distressed company.
• 2:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it was exciting to me.
• 2:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: We had to figure out whether or not to continue it, the business, whether or not you needed to continue with certain employees or work in process and really just really like the insolvency aspect of it.
• 2:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: So continuing on with that.
• 2:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then I lived in the UK for about six years doing large scale cross border insolvencies.
• 2:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: which was interesting, got to spend some time in Bramida and came in and then came back to Vancouver in twenty seventeen.
• 2:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would work at a as a partner at a big four firm for a number of years and then started with M&P last November.
• 3:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: So what happens when somebody passes away with more debts than assets?
• 3:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: Could you walk us through that process of settling and dissolving to a state?
• 3:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, so in the will, there will be an executor.
• 3:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: If there's no one's executor, then there will be an administrator that's appointed.
• 3:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: In the court, if it's an insolvent estate, usually that administrator, it could be a family or a friend, or it could be a license and solvency trustee, which is what I am, what M&P is.
• 3:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: So when the administrator is appointed, they'll go out, identify all of the assets, assign values to them, run sales processes, bring all of the money and the proceeds from those sales into the estate.
• 3:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then they will call for credit or claim, so we know to file of the creditors that there is the deceased and to let us know if the administrator know, if there's any amounts due to them.
• 3:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then we would pay out the predators based on a priority under either provincial or federal law, depending upon if it's bankrupt or not.
• 4:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then the administrator would pay the amounts out through the tax returns and apply for discharge.
• 4:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: So tell us exactly how do predators get paid and how do you decide what the priority is of who gets paid for a Southern people?
• 4:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's based on a legal priority.
• 4:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: If it's an administrator working under the Wills and a state succession act, it is one set of priorities that's a provincial act.
• 4:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the BC provincial act and then if the estate is bankrupt, then it's actually the priorities come under the bankruptcy and insolvency act, which is a federal statute.
• 4:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Those two priorities are hierarchies of payment.
• 4:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're mere they're pretty much the same under both act.
• 4:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: So
• 4:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Normally, and just to summarize that it's, you know, funeral costs, reasonable funeral costs, probate fees, administration fees, legal costs are paid out first.
• 5:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then there's secured creditors.
• 5:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if there's bank loans, that's that truth, the secured creditors will either seize their assets, realize upon them themselves, or receive or will.
• 5:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or the administrator can realize upon the assets, pay the secured creditors.
• 5:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then the preferred creditors.
• 5:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: So once they're paid and full, the preferred creditors are next.
• 5:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And those are people like source deductions outstanding per CRA or GST outstanding.
• 5:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: If there's businesses involved, sometimes there's employee amounts and some other preferred amounts.
• 5:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then you've got your unsecured creditors.
• 5:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they're getting, if it's an insolvent estate, there's not enough assets to go around.
• 5:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they are getting sent on the dollar effectively, being paid prorata, percentage of their claim based on the other creditors.
• 5:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: How is it governed by provincial or federal legislation?
• 5:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: If it is the administrator or the executor that is administering those assets and paying them out, then it would be under the provincial west act.
• 5:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then if the estate had filed for bankruptcy or the executor had signed it into bankruptcy, then it would be a trustee would be appointed and the trustee administers it under the bankruptcy and in solvency act, which is the federal statute.
• 6:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: So how does an executor know if they should be in bankruptcy?
• 6:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: First of all, in order to sign into bankruptcy, it does need to be insolvent.
• 6:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if the estate's insolvent, the executor does have some liability.
• 6:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: They need to make sure that they're realizing upon the assets for their maximum value, which when it's insolvent, there's already not very many assets.
• 6:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you need to make sure you're getting all the money you can for them.
• 6:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So selling them and probably could get them in trouble.
• 6:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Also, if you don't follow that priority when you're paying out the dense, that could also get them in trouble.
• 6:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if an executor doesn't want a stress, maybe they're a family member, and it's a lot, or there's a lot of contentious litigious creditors that are knocking down their door, being really difficult.
• 7:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: It might be better to assign it into bankruptcy and have a, like a license and solve and see trust you that kind of deals with the types of creditors and negotiations every day.
• 7:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Come in.
• 7:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: and take zession of the assets of the estate, realize upon them and distribute them, and that actually moves the liability from the executor for those activities onto the trustee, and then there's a very limited role, really, for the executor at that stage.
• 7:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what is in solitude, exactly?
• 7:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: All it means is that your assets are less than your liabilities.
• 7:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's just a factual thing rather than being a legal processor or anything like that.
• 7:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what insolvency is.
• 7:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or you're not paying your debt in under the Bankruptcy and Solvency Act.
• 7:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can simply not be paying your debts as they come do.
• 7:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that can mean your insolvency.
• 7:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you do have enough assets to pay them, but you're just not paying your creditors.
• 7:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: The creditors can actually apply for your bankruptcy.
• 8:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's different than bankruptcy, which is a legal process where the estate or the executor will assign the estate into a bankruptcy, and then at the trustee gets appointed there, as all courts are revised.
• 8:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then the trustee or the lit, as we call them, a license and solve and see trustee, they are court appointment, so they are officers of the court and have to act independently.
• 8:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is a very common question.
• 8:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: Are family members ever responsible for the deaths of a deceased person?
• 8:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: And what should people know to protect themselves?
• 8:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, I don't think generally family members are responsible for deaths of a deceased person.
• 8:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think they're, if you're a co-signer of debt or if you hold that jointly with the deceased, then there is the possibility in both of those cases that you will be liable, especially in an insolvent estate because there's not enough money to pay back creditors.
• 8:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: So when the insolvent estate, which
• 9:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: is only going to be responsible for their portion of that joint debt or the guarantee debt of cosine debt.
• 9:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: If there's no money to pay that portion back, the entire rest of the portion owed is owed by the cosine.
• 9:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's where you could get some liability for debts of the deceased.
• 9:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: And the other place where liability could happen is if the family member is actually the executor, and then we talked about some of the risks that a executor might face if they don't administer,
• 9:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: properly.
• 9:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: So let's talk about that.
• 9:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: Someone passes away in the executor looks at it and it looks like either it's on the edge or clearly the dot succeed the assets.
• 9:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: How does the executor decide what to do next?
• 9:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: I guess it depends upon their appetite for risk and how sophisticated they are with actually dealing with these situations.
• 9:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they've dealt with it before an insolvency situation in their comfortable doing that.
• 10:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think the first step is they probably should call someone like me just for just a chat so that they can decide whether or not they're comfortable in that role.
• 10:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: or do they need to get some court supervision of the process?
• 10:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do they need to appoint an administrator, which could be an insolvency professional, or it could be another family member to administer for them, or do they need to assign it into bankruptcy so it can be under the production of the bankruptcy and so it's the act.
• 10:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it really depends upon how comfortably they feel and how litigious and contentious that the situation is with the other creditors.
• 10:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: So say somebody calls you to have a chat and they say like, what are the risks?
• 10:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think you referenced that before is that if they don't sell assets for a full market value or maybe they make a mistake with the order that could they be personally liable for?
• 10:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: products.
• 10:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: If they're acting with due diligence and care and they are not doing anything that's negligent, they may not face consequence, but they have to be doing their best efforts to maximize on those assets, right?
• 11:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: So instead of just selling an asset to your friend,
• 11:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you would need to, if it was a house, you need to get a appraisal and make sure you were selling it for the maximum value.
• 11:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or if it was a corporation or a company that was owned, you would have to get that value and run a sales process potentially.
• 11:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there's certain ways you can get the most value out of the assets that you're selling.
• 11:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: So simply inquiring to a professional, like, what can I do here to make sure that I'm maximizing?
• 11:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because they might not know if they're not in the business of buying and selling assets.
• 11:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: Right, and that leads to, you know, what's the standard that would be measured of a person doing it versus a company or a trustee bankruptcy doing it.
• 11:51
  [SPEAKER_03]: So if they've made perhaps an error.
• 11:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, they're not going to be just held to a high standard probably.
• 11:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, goodness.
• 11:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, yes.
• 11:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they certainly wouldn't be, I think as long as you're acting, prudently, and you are acting with due diligence in good faith, I think that you would be fine as an executor.
• 12:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: We are certainly held to a very high standard, a lot of what we do.
• 12:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: The bankruptcy and insolments, the act is a trustee is also approved by the court.
• 12:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there's all sorts of precedent in the courts as to what constitutes appropriate sales processes for certain assets.
• 12:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we're definitely held to a higher standard, which makes sense because this is our profession.
• 12:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: So.
• 12:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: And in this type of process, is there any way to shield certain assets from being claimed by creditors after death, such as trusts or beneficiary designations?
• 12:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a few things.
• 12:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: So basically, designating beneficiaries.
• 12:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if you have rfsp or life insurance policies, TFSAs, appointing a beneficiary to those as important.
• 12:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if we were to come in as an insolvency trustee or an administrator,
• 12:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: The first thing we check is, is this an asset of the estate?
• 13:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do we need to take it?
• 13:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: If it's a beneficiary and it's a properly set up trust, that is just not an asset of the estate.
• 13:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we wouldn't collect it in for the benefit of the crudders and say it was life insurance, that would be paid directly to the beneficiary.
• 13:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's also trusts that you can set up the interview, those trusts where the living trusts were, while the deceased person is still alive can transfer assets to.
• 13:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: the to somebody else.
• 13:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then those are seen as in a trust and held outside of the bankruptcy system or outside of the estate.
• 13:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And the only thing that you may get pushed back and you might get for more push back from a trustee is if that was act, if that trust was put up with the intention to defraud or defeat particular creditors.
• 13:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's set up kind of right before the person dies in order to defeat a creditor, then it could get unwound.
• 13:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: But for the most part, that's a good way to
• 13:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Protect assets.
• 13:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, there was a recent case where a widow was in litigation with the CRE for many years, and that she was the beneficiary of a RSP, but the deceased husband passed away with a large debt to the CRE, and the CRE took the position that it should be entitled to the RSP.
• 14:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think she lost in court, but one on appeal.
• 14:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: So that was interesting.
• 14:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: That was just a case that came out of a few months ago.
• 14:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, CRA has actually been very unusually present in lots of these situations where they weren't before, so especially in an insolvency situations, we're seeing them show up in court, try to realize on guarantees that they weren't before, try to go after certain deaths that they perceive to be, you know, they're trusts not someone else, so I'm not surprised to hear that.
• 14:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: So what about interfamily loans?
• 14:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: So there's, you know, a parent has loaned funds to a child or between siblings.
• 14:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: Are those with those fit the unsecured creditors or how does that factor in when you've got more debts than us?
• 15:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, if a parent who is deceased has lent to a child, so if a parent's a deceased has lent to a child and there's no agreements in place for it and it's a minor child, it would probably be determined to be a gift and therefore it wouldn't be a state asset.
• 15:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: If the parent has lent to an adult child, it would be assumed to be property of the estate unless there was some documentation that said it was a gift or that it was forgiven or the will had said that.
• 15:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: So unless those are there, then I would assume an administrator or a trustee would probably pursue the asset and try to collect it into the estate.
• 15:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's very important to have
• 15:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: How all of those loans and writing all the way know they never are?
• 15:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or they very rarely are?
• 15:57
  [UNKNOWN]: Right.
• 15:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: So what happens if somebody dies, owing money to a family business?
• 16:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: Can the business claim against the estate?
• 16:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
• 16:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the business is a creditor, like anybody else.
• 16:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: If the state owes the business money, then during the claims process in either under WESA or under the Bankruptcy and Solvency Act, they would call for claims.
• 16:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: The business would put the claim in.
• 16:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's very important that there's documents for that because the trustee or the administrators not going to accept.
• 16:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: And note that says that says they owe me money so there needs to be contracts in place.
• 16:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so there's proof that that money is owed by the or by the estate to to the business.
• 16:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's also the businesses are actually kind of interesting because there's
• 16:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Also, this whole other component, if the estate actually owns, so the person in the state say the own fifty percent of a bunch of operating companies.
• 16:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's also the estate could have a claim in that company and it becomes very complex and difficult if there's directors of those underlying companies.
• 17:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: the state don't say fifty percent so they maybe don't have controlling control over those entities but they want to know what's going on to them because there's a portion of those dividends that should be coming back to the estate.
• 17:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there is ways to appoint an administrator and within that order to give the administrator
• 17:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: powers to go in and look at the books and records that's a company and figure out whether or not it is in salt that maybe the companies are in salt and they need to be wound up and so that the estate, executor and those beneficiaries can figure out what's the best course of action to get some of those assets back into the estate.
• 17:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: So what I'm hearing you say is the importance to document attention, get out of things, even if it's within family or maybe even more important.
• 17:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: that things are clearly documented in case somebody passes away or becomes incapable.
• 17:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
• 17:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: And the more documented the better, obviously, you can have loan agreements that can be quite complex, that have all of the terms repayment terms, etc.
• 18:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: in them.
• 18:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: But even things, anything like a promissory note or a credit or a demand note, anything that is in writing that says the intention of what those funds are is better than not having anything.
• 18:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: Are there ways to structure the loans particularly between family members?
• 18:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: They would maybe make it an easier or a professional to look at and accept at the production.
• 18:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I think if you have an act like the actual contract in place that says, I'm going to lend my adult child X amount of money for this period of time, I do not expect them to pay it back.
• 18:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: So having those terms in there or saying this is a gift,
• 18:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you might not normally think of that, right?
• 18:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: You might just give your child a gift, right?
• 18:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And not think of formalizing that gift.
• 18:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: But if you don't, you run the risk of the trustier administrator needing to claw that back.
• 19:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: So even if it's, so the way to structure it definitely is by way of some sort of loan document with the intention, the intention is the big part that you want to make sure that's in there.
• 19:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: So we're using terms, I guess we're throwing terms around that our listeners might not know.
• 19:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: So we're using words like secure debt, unsecured debt, joint debt guarantee debt.
• 19:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: Can you help us understand what those different terms mean?
• 19:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sure.
• 19:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: So secured debt is when usually it's going to be a loan from a bank or something or a big creditor where they lent you money and they've secured against your ad.
• 19:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they've used your assets of your of the person or the company as collateral and they've registered that security under the relevant act with the PPSA.
• 19:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: or they've got security over the PPSA, the personal property security.
• 19:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, personal property security is that.
• 19:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's secured.
• 20:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And once you've secured and you've registered it properly, you're just security that lender then gets priority.
• 20:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's why I was saying apart from funeral costs and admin costs, those secured creditors get paid back first.
• 20:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: even over, say, life insurance proceeds that have beneficiaries.
• 20:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, the secure creditors really do take a priority.
• 20:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Unsecured creditors, we talked about those are the ones that are kind of don't have any security.
• 20:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if there's some money left over, then they might get some.
• 20:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And in some mistake, beneficiaries don't get anything because there's no assets left after you paid the creditors.
• 20:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Joint that is just when two people
• 20:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: take out or jointly liable for the deaths and co-signing is when you've co-signed with someone else on a debt guaranteeing as you've guaranteed someone else's debt.
• 20:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: So in all of those circumstances and we previously mentioned is the deceased obviously has the responsibility for their own debt, but let's just take guarantee if you've guaranteed that debt.
• 21:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: the states in solvent, and there's not enough money to pay for the deceased person to pay back their loan, then that guarantor is on the hook for the whole thing.
• 21:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, a lot of parents and adult children, co-sign loans, there's joint credit cards, and so if there's not enough in the estate than the surviving borrowers, are they often on the hook?
• 21:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, they are on the hook and it's especially in installments of states, but yeah, they're on the hook for all of those charges.
• 21:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes it's as easy as a yeah sure else I'm that, but you know, you want to be careful and make sure that you know what you're signing and your responsibilities and liability should somebody be deceased.
• 21:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: What I've seen in practice from doing a state administration for years is some of the larger financial institutions I've noticed have not, I think, for PR purposes, or maybe they feel like their expenses will exceed the return.
• 22:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: But I have seen some people, particularly, with some of the, well, so many people have died in this midlife of fentanyl and things, they're not like extremely tragic.
• 22:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: often the parents have been guarantors of like a credit card or a thirty thousand dollar line of credit and it's been interesting the larger financial institutions I've noticed have not necessarily realized on that with a surviving parent and you know I think they must do some sort of analysis and and make a I guess a business decision that they don't want to do that but obviously there's no guarantee because legally that that surviving parent would be responsible
• 22:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we've actually, you know, always advising people you want to say, look, who are responsible.
• 22:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: They can come after you same thing with directors liability for CRA debt.
• 22:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Are they going to go after you?
• 22:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but they certainly can so that's always the advice, but.
• 22:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now more than ever, because of all of the social media and how easy it is for one wrong message to have a huge impact on companies.
• 23:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we have noticed as well that they're very careful on who they decide to go after for sure.
• 23:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so we've talked a lot about insolvency and bankruptcy, but can you help us understand how those are different or the same?
• 23:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: So in Solvency and bankruptcy are very different.
• 23:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: So in Solvency, you can be in Solvency and that's totally fine.
• 23:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Lots of people are probably in Solvency.
• 23:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: You've just got, you know, you've heavily leveraged it and you're working on your plan to go forward and you just don't have the assets there because you're working on it.
• 23:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or you've gone to school and you've taken out a big loan, right?
• 23:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's lots of people that are in Solvency or companies that are in Solvency.
• 23:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: But that's much different, just not being able to pay your debts or your assets being less than your liabilities, much different, actually than if you are bankrupt.
• 23:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: So bankruptcy can happen under the bankruptcy and solve and see act in Canada either by way of assigning your own self into bankruptcy.
• 24:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you engage a license, you have to engage a license and solve and see the trustee.
• 24:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we will help you assign yourself into bankruptcy.
• 24:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then we come in, take possession of the assets, and we administer the whole process.
• 24:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: The other way as if a creditor isn't getting paid, they can petition someone or a company into bankruptcy if they're owed more than a thousand dollars.
• 24:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then they would go to court and the court would appoint a trustee to do kind of the same things.
• 24:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a very, it's an actual legal process under the bankruptcy and insolvency act.
• 24:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a formal process that needs to be carried out in a ministered whereas in solvents, he's just a
• 24:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: a state of the person's financial affairs.
• 24:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: So what is I remember as a young lawyer, we used to talk about the CCW, what is that again, and how does that come into force?
• 24:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, so the CCW would be for companies.
• 24:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: The CCW is an act, companies creditors arrangement act.
• 25:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: There is a similar provision under the bankruptcy and silvency act, but what they're used is to restructure companies.
• 25:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: So a company that wants to continue on that needs some breathing room from its creditors.
• 25:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they need to disclaim some contracts or leases that are unfavorable in order to move forward.
• 25:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they need to sell a portion of the business, but they need some breathing room to do it because their creditors are banging down the door.
• 25:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the CCWA allows for
• 25:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: A, that's day of proceedings against creditors.
• 25:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: It allows for the company to stay in possession of its company management and place the court appoints.
• 25:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's all very court driven.
• 25:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: The court appoints a CCW monitor.
• 25:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we would be appointed as a monitor and we're kind of the eyes and ears of the court and the creditors.
• 25:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: We come in and assist the company in its restructuring efforts.
• 25:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: So whether that's running a sales process to sell the company to sell portion of the company, electing creditors claims, provide a plan to the creditors that says,
• 26:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to sell these assets.
• 26:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to get this much money for it.
• 26:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to pay back cents on the dollar to these unsecured creditors.
• 26:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to pay back our secured creditors.
• 26:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to refinance this portion over debt and then we're going to carry on.
• 26:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's kind of the plan that goes to the creditors creditors vote on it and then it gets implemented.
• 26:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's a really useful tool because it's so court driven and there aren't many actual
• 26:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: that the law, the CCWA law is short and it's very flexible.
• 26:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can basically go back to the court and ask for relief.
• 26:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or whatever you want within reason, and that's, it makes it a lot easier to restructure the business.
• 26:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: You have to have at least five million dollars in debt to use the CCWA.
• 26:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you have a less than five million dollars in debt, you can use this similar, it's called an NOI, or a division one proposal under the bankruptcy and insolvency act.
• 26:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: But that one is very driven by the rules and less court.
• 27:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's less flexibility.
• 27:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, Greg and I, as we were driving here and stuck on Georgia traffic, we were looking at the Bay Building and not wondering what's going on with the Bay.
• 27:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: What's happening with the Bay right now?
• 27:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Bay is in season overlay.
• 27:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so they were looking to try and figure out whether or not they could sell a portion of it sell the brand that the brands don't have value.
• 27:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think there was hope originally that it would be somebody that would come in and buy that.
• 27:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think they're still looking at options.
• 27:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: They have since decided to liquidate so they're liquidating their stores.
• 27:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then they have obviously approximately.
• 27:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, ten thousand employees, I think.
• 27:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think there's a lot of work that's going to have to happen on that claim side of things.
• 27:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: So employees obviously are also creditors.
• 27:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're owed money.
• 27:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's going to be a whole exercise where that someone's going to have to figure out who all the creditors as well as the employees are who's owed what money.
• 27:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's going to be huge exercise.
• 27:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then the Bay will either sell its brand.
• 28:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it will probably just continue to liquidate the rest of the actual inventory.
• 28:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And call it a day.
• 28:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it will be a liquidating CCWA.
• 28:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Usually the company goes on.
• 28:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Someone buys it and it goes on.
• 28:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: But in this case, I think the intentions to be liquidating proposal, although unless you're intimately, unless you're the actual monitor, you don't really know what's going on or the company.
• 28:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think the difference would be in the case, like in America, especially airlines go bankrupt all the time because of cash flow issues.
• 28:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 28:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: You're not allowed to fly for five days.
• 28:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Jim.
• 28:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Jim.
• 28:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Jim.
• 28:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Jim.
• 28:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Jim.
• 28:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: You were COVID and they all just filed and all their creditors need to keep them in business because we're also going to sell their land fuel, too.
• 28:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
• 28:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a huge incentive for creditors or other investors to make sure that it's funded.
• 28:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 28:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: So another big benefit of a CCWA is someone can come in and fund and the court can order that that funding has priority above secured creditors.
• 28:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they get paid back first out of any sales.
• 29:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a benefit of a CCWA.
• 29:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's called interim funding or dip veteran possession funding.
• 29:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so which is what, yeah, an airline or the bay or anybody that puts money into an insolvent entity in a CCW would get that charge.
• 29:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, so can you explain a right of survivorship in joint accounts and how it interacts with state debts?
• 29:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: So a rate of survivorship is one to people jointly own a property.
• 29:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: If one person dies, that property automatically vests with the surviving person.
• 29:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 29:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's the, I think that's the right of survivorship.
• 29:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Those assets obviously don't form part of the deceased estate.
• 29:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then I think it really matters to whether it's adult child or whether it's a minor child.
• 29:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think if it's a minor child, so we'll say it's a joint bank account, I think if it's a minor child, it's assumed that that is a gift and that's fine.
• 29:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think if it's a adult child, and I think there's case president on this, if it's an adult child, unless there's some sort of proof that that was a gift, then it's actually part of the estate.
• 30:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: So it's exactly right.
• 30:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: There's a, it's called the core, but it's a Supreme Court of Canada case, because there are so many disputes and
• 30:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: Conflicts about that, so that's exactly what it is.
• 30:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: If it's a spouse, it's deemed to be an asset of the spouse, but if it's an adult child, they're deemed to hold it in trust for the estate, unless there's documentation.
• 30:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right, and that peckor was where the father put the assets in the, in the daughter's name, and then, yeah, then it was a determined that that wasn't actually, that wasn't asset of the estate.
• 30:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: So just like you mentioned, then, the importance of documenting everything, so in the estate, so we administer,
• 30:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: so many disputes come out of joint accounts where they haven't documented their intention.
• 30:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: And there's not just creditor issues, there's toxic issues and allocating evasits.
• 31:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: I was going to ask you a question.
• 31:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: So you go in as a monitor or a receiver.
• 31:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: What's that like when you knock on the door of a distressed company?
• 31:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: Is that a friendly feeling?
• 31:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: What does that feel like when you have to?
• 31:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: When you have to go in and be that quote, the eyes and ears of the current.
• 31:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so it really depends upon the situation.
• 31:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: It depends if the management in places is happy to have us there as advising them and they really want to get through this.
• 31:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's different if it's a receivership.
• 31:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: So monitor your probably working with the company just before any way to help them through and understand their options.
• 31:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's better if you are a receiver.
• 31:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you're coming in to take over the company on behalf of the lender.
• 31:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: If the owner had doesn't want that to happen, say the owner has been telling the bank, I'm getting refinance.
• 31:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Please leave my company with me.
• 31:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Don't worry, you're getting your money, but they're forbeared.
• 31:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's been a year.
• 31:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: The bank decides to put in a receiver that's the last form of a welcome.
• 32:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: So at that time, you have to come in in your taking possession.
• 32:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what we have to do is put a notice on the door that says the companies in receivership, we have a court order that says that we now own your company.
• 32:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we go in and you have to get all of the employees together, let them know you're going to assess whether the company should continue or not.
• 32:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that brings a lot of uncertainty to them.
• 32:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they get in a lot of the time they hadn't been paid for the last two weeks too.
• 32:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they get there rightfully very concerned.
• 32:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's always kind of the worst part of it is around the employees and then management.
• 32:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they usually don't lie in there.
• 32:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: If they could be helpful if they care about making sure the employees have information, but they usually just run out of the back door and then you got to change locks.
• 32:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's get computer passwords.
• 32:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: I have a personal experience with this.
• 32:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: going to a friend's birthday in May, maybe two decades ago, celebrating at a well-known Mexican restaurant food chain.
• 32:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: The receiver showed up and said, everybody out.
• 33:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: So it wasn't the whole chain, but one owner owned five or six between Winnipeg, Calgary and such.
• 33:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: We were allowed to finish whatever beverage you had on the table, but that was it.
• 33:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: That was it.
• 33:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Happy birthday.
• 33:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: It was dramatic.
• 33:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: It is dramatic and I guess maybe we're we're used to doing it, but nonetheless, we we do recognize it's dramatic.
• 33:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: We just took possession of a place the other day and there was one employee in there.
• 33:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: The director hadn't told them that this was going to happen and she was like, oh, that's my personal laptop.
• 33:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Can I keep this that it's like, no, you have to leave absolutely everything and leave.
• 33:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's very confusing to them and lots of uncertainty.
• 33:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if that was her laptop, obviously, we'll determine that and give it back to her if it is.
• 33:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it's a scary process.
• 33:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: And even let you weren't even an employee or just a customer.
• 33:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's awfully intrusive.
• 33:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: Many people assume that life insurance automatically pays off debts.
• 33:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: What's the reality?
• 33:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: And what should people check to ensure financial security for beneficiaries?
• 34:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so life insurance definitely doesn't automatically pay off the debts if there has been beneficiaries.
• 34:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they're you have to make sure that there are beneficiaries assigned under that life insurance policy.
• 34:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: If there are great, those aren't assets of the estate and they insurance company will just pay out the beneficiary themselves.
• 34:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: If the beneficiary is the company or is just payable to the company, then those that the life insurance will come into.
• 34:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: be a state and then it pays off, especially in insulment state, you're paying off all of those secured creditors, et cetera.
• 34:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the beneficiaries who generally life insurance, you'd think it was for the beneficiaries or the errors, it's not actually ever going to get to them.
• 34:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's very important to make sure you're.
• 34:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: And even that insurance may be insufficient to pay off the debt.
• 34:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, absolutely.
• 34:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 34:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: So there's a lot of economic uncertainty and, you know, tariffs are going to put a huge pressure on businesses and costs are living in housing as exceeding what people make.
• 35:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I think there's a lot of quietly distressed businesses and individuals.
• 35:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: Do you have tips for them if they're struggling with debt?
• 35:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: What do you think they could do?
• 35:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: Could they come speak to someone like you or
• 35:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
• 35:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: So your first step should be to talk to someone, just call us.
• 35:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: We've got, um, so if you're an individual, I do corporate insolvency, um, but we have a, he, the biggest practice in the country, MNP is, um, has consumer practice as well.
• 35:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: So come talk to us because you're most important things to understand your options now.
• 35:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a short call and we just explain to you whether you do need our services or you don't need our services or whether there's something else you can do in the meantime a lot of the time informally you can restructure your debts.
• 35:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there's also either you can call your own banks and try to refinance or consolidate debts or there's lots of services that can do that.
• 36:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I would say that conversation is really key because the longer you wait
• 36:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: until you are really, really insolvent.
• 36:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: The more likely it is that you'll go bankrupt.
• 36:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you talk to us when you think there might be an issue, but there's still some runway.
• 36:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's so many more options to help you.
• 36:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you're a individual or if you're an individual with a small business, there's so many more options that we can walk you through and try to
• 36:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Preferably informally because going into any process costs money, but informally just to try and help you restructure.
• 36:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, M&P.ca is a great resource for that.
• 36:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: What is the typical timelines for personal bankruptcy versus a commercial bankruptcy?
• 36:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: Like a personal one is relatively quick.
• 36:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: Is it not in general?
• 36:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now you're really testing my knowledge because I don't practice consumer insolvency.
• 36:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: But yes, it's faster.
• 36:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you can be automatically discharged after nine months as a personal consumer insolvent.
• 37:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: So as long as you haven't been bankrupt before and you don't have any surplus income.
• 37:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you're not making a whole bunch of money that should be paid back to your creditors.
• 37:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can get discharged pretty quickly.
• 37:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then all of the debts that you have provided, there's some debts.
• 37:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: If they were created fraudulently, et cetera, that that aren't discharged before the most part, your debts will be discharged and you can go on your way.
• 37:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Bankruptcy for a corporation is a much longer process because a corporation will own assets that you need to run these sales processes in order to realize upon
• 37:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: they might have tons more creditors than an individual it have.
• 37:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, I've got to pay out those creditors and hold creditors meetings and all of these things, so it just takes a little bit longer to do the corporate one.
• 37:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: But in that sense, the creditors are waiting to get paid out, but the director's not involved anymore, because we come in as a, and run the company.
• 37:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: So we hear the word consumer proposal.
• 37:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: How's that different than a bankruptcy?
• 38:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so maybe we, it's not exactly the same, but you can kind of equate it under the bankruptcy and insolvency act to that division one proposal I was talking about or the CCWA is just for a consumer.
• 38:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what it does is it again, the consumer.
• 38:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: stays in possession of all of their assets, but it gives them some breathing room from creditors.
• 38:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they can figure out, how do I propose a plan to my creditors where, you know, in the plan might say, I'm going to continue to work.
• 38:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: I make X amount of money.
• 38:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to be able to pay back these creditors sent these, you know, seventy five cents on the dollar over a period of five years.
• 38:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is going to be my payment plan.
• 38:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it allows you to structure that proposal to your creditors.
• 38:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the creditors then vote on it.
• 38:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if they approve it, which hopefully they will, because the alternative is the bankruptcy and they probably creditors aren't going to get more in a bankruptcy.
• 38:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then they can implement that plan and kind of go on their way.
• 38:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: So then you keep your company.
• 38:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to file for bankruptcy.
• 38:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Less stigma is generally attached to a restructuring rather than bankruptcy.
• 39:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: So we're hearing a lot
• 39:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: in the community about like housing and the disability crisis, but is it, is it true that a lot of developers are having difficulty with a cost of land development costs and borrowing costs?
• 39:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like the word is that developers are struggling, is that true?
• 39:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, they were by far the number one industry in Vancouver.
• 39:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: That is failing.
• 39:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: M&P, we do a lot of work, probably the most work in real estate in the city and restructuring.
• 39:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So developers are definitely struggling.
• 39:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a number of reasons why.
• 39:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the market is softening.
• 39:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of the time, there's pre-sales that have happened.
• 39:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So as those pre-sales need to complete, if the interest rates are too high and people don't have any money to actually get the mortgage out or the lender won't lend them the money, you can't complete on the remainder of the sales.
• 40:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: That means that you're not going to be able to have that money to continue with the build.
• 40:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: In addition, costs are rising, so you, all with pre sails, you've locked yourself into those pre sails amounts, whereas costs have been rising.
• 40:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you're not getting the profit that you would have otherwise.
• 40:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: So developers are finding themselves in a situation where either there's no available people to work on in construction, because they're working on other projects.
• 40:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or they just don't have the funds to the project doesn't economically make sense anymore because they the cost have risen too much compared to the sales price of the units.
• 40:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they're struggling with that.
• 40:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: At that point, you kind of have to build it out because your alternative is to sell the unit unfinished and there's huge discounts that come with that.
• 40:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we are generally engaged as a.
• 40:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: a financial advisor to either the lender or to the developer to help them walk through.
• 41:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Should you continue?
• 41:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Should you redesign if you can depending upon the stage you're in and see if you get some more units out of it or some additional funds?
• 41:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then should you continue on?
• 41:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Should you cut your losses and sell it now?
• 41:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then go from there and you can also use the CCWN receiverships et cetera with respect to developers as well.
• 41:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: But that's a, that could be a whole podcast.
• 41:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, is there any final tips for listeners?
• 41:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I think if you're an executor.
• 41:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's a complex in solvent estate.
• 41:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: There are liabilities.
• 41:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: And there's a lot more scrutiny if you are in solvent.
• 41:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I would have a good think about whether you want that role or do you want to point an administrator.
• 41:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would reach out to either in a state lawyer or licensed in solvency trustee to just discuss your options, your potential risks just so that you're aware.
• 41:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you do take the role on, I would say make sure you're maximizing those realizations.
• 41:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Make sure that you're paying out in accordance with whatever priority you need to.
• 42:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then I would just document everything.
• 42:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Make sure you're really keeping a lot of records of what you've what you've done.
• 42:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 42:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you so much.
• 42:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: How is this been amazing and we really appreciate your expertise.
• 42:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: No problem.
• 42:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you very much.
• 42:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
• 42:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered individual legal, financial, or tax advice.
• 42:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: Make sure to consult the advisor of your choice to advise you on your own circumstances.
• 42:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for joining us for this episode of Your State Matters.
• 42:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: If you like this podcast, make sure to follow it on your podcast platform of choice.
• 42:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: Whether you are planning your own estate or you're acting as executive for somebody else's heritage trust can help.
• 42:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: Partner with heritage trust to protect your family, your assets, and your legacy.
• 42:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: If you'd like more information about heritage trust, please visit our website at heritagetrustcompany.ca.
• 43:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: This podcast is produced by PawnFather Creative.