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Fosun Pharma’s Drive Beyond China · Vanguards of Healthcare by Bloomberg Intelligence

0:14
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Bloomberg Intelligence Vanguards of Healthcare podcast,
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Speaker 1: where we speak with the leaders at the forefront of
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Speaker 1: change in the healthcare industry. My name is Sam Fazelli
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Speaker 1: and I'm a senior pharmaceuticals analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence, the
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Speaker 1: in house research arm of Bloomberg. I'm thrilled to welcome
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Speaker 1: doctor Shinglee Wang, co president of Folson Pharma, the parent
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Speaker 1: company of Henlius. He also serves as CEO of the
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Speaker 1: Global R and D Center of folks and Pharma, where
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Speaker 1: he leads programs spanning from early development right up to
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Speaker 1: a late stage development for NDA submissions. Doctor Wang is
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Speaker 1: a physician with a strong academic background in China, Australia
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Speaker 1: and the US. SO I wanted to just give you everybody,
0:54
Speaker 1: our listeners a little data set for the companies that
0:57
Speaker 1: Shinklee is involved in. SO First On Farmer has been
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Speaker 1: independently listed in the Hong Kong Stock Exchange since twenty thirteen.
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Speaker 1: Market cap currently is around ten billion dollars, revenues of
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Speaker 1: around five point seven billion dollars in twenty twenty four
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Speaker 1: and performance has been very strong seventy percent in the
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Speaker 1: past twelve months in terms of share price. The company
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Speaker 1: also has a meaningful shareholding in Henlius. This has been
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Speaker 1: listed on HK Index Hong Kong Index since twenty nineteen,
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Speaker 1: market cap just shy of five billion dollars and twenty
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Speaker 1: twenty four revenues of seven hundred and ninety five million dollars.
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Speaker 1: Now Helius has significantly outperformed the hs BIO the Hong
1:40
Speaker 1: Kong Hanks Saying Bio Index, and is up three hundred
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Speaker 1: percent in the past twelve months versus the seventy percent
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Speaker 1: for the index itself, which is quite a wonderful thing
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Speaker 1: to see. We will get to talk a little bit
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Speaker 1: about the performance of the China Bright text, but without
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Speaker 1: further ado, I want to welcome Hinkly to the podcast,
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Speaker 1: and maybe if I could ask you to just tell
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Speaker 1: us a little bit about your own history. What's your background?
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Speaker 1: What brought you to sit in the seat that and
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Speaker 1: I'll see you sitting in right now.
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Speaker 2: Sure, Thank you very much, Sam, and I really appreciate
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Speaker 2: you give me an opportunity to talk with you about food,
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Speaker 2: sound and about myself. I started my clinical training in
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Speaker 2: Australia Sydney, Australia and they ended up as a cardiologist.
2:21
Speaker 2: That's where I also started my academic career in Cardavasca medicine,
2:25
Speaker 2: and then by nineteen nine I went to Baylor College
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Speaker 2: Medicine and continue on my academic career pursuit until I
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Speaker 2: became as Henry Professor and running the caadavascar research in
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Speaker 2: cardiastrastic surgery, mainly in the carney disease and as well
2:41
Speaker 2: as aortic disease as well. And by two thousand and
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Speaker 2: eight I joined the industrial career by joining Sharon Plow
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Speaker 2: and then shifted to Merk and then gone to a
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Speaker 2: artist in New Jersey, and most of this time or
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Speaker 2: on the caadamascular late stage trials, mostly corner disease at
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Speaker 2: coregulations and all these aspects. And by twenty nineteen I
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Speaker 2: was on international assignment. Came over to China really for
3:11
Speaker 2: that to develop the global strategy for Novaratas, to try
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Speaker 2: to make China as part of the global strategic development
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Speaker 2: center and mainly in the clinical aspect. So I was
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Speaker 2: as an R and D head in China for Novartis
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Speaker 2: until twenty twenty two. So at that time my international
3:30
Speaker 2: assignment started to expire and I was at a crossroad
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Speaker 2: to either return to US or stay in China for
3:37
Speaker 2: a few more years to really experience or explore how
3:41
Speaker 2: the Chinese from zoo companies are really working on. So
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Speaker 2: at that time I chosen fus Pharma because it's one
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Speaker 2: of the most globalized farm zoue companies. I see from
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Speaker 2: most of the Chinese from two companies, and so I
3:55
Speaker 2: started my career in FUS and Pharma from the January
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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three. My responsibility is really to oversee or
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Speaker 2: running the enough of the medicine business unit as well
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Speaker 2: as directly running the global R and D center to
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Speaker 2: keep the whole thing going. I think that is where
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Speaker 2: your question is how I landed in its seat over
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Speaker 2: its long term careers. So it's been very long for
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Speaker 2: more than thirty years in this area.
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Speaker 1: That's wonderful to hear. I have to say, I think
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Speaker 1: we're going to focus probably a lot more around ecology today,
4:27
Speaker 1: as Shinkley knows that we have a very deep effort
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Speaker 1: in oncology. But clearly your background in cardio metabolic would
4:33
Speaker 1: also be a fantastic conversation to have whenever we get
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Speaker 1: to that point. Given all the interest and the sudden
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Speaker 1: resurgence of interest in cardio metabolic having been shunned by
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Speaker 1: the world of pharma for a decade or two, and
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Speaker 1: now of course with the advent of jlp ones and obesity,
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Speaker 1: and of course jlp ones also seem to have a
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Speaker 1: role to play in preventing cancer or one day, I'm
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Speaker 1: sure when we get some more data that's useful to
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Speaker 1: talk about, we can talk about that. So that's actually
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Speaker 1: a really good segue to go and moving to Fulson
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Speaker 1: Farma first, and farma is you know, I did say
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Speaker 1: five point seven billion dollars of revenue in twenty twenty four.
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Speaker 1: I mean, a lot of that's coming from I don't
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Speaker 1: want to, I don't know how what to call it
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Speaker 1: legacy business, legacy product or standard pharmaceutical products. And then
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Speaker 1: of course there is the innovative therapies that I think
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Speaker 1: is what the company wants to be more focused on
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Speaker 1: or as focused on going forward. So do you want
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Speaker 1: to give us a little bit of a breakdown of
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Speaker 1: how the company businesses are structured in terms of segments,
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Speaker 1: et cetera.
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Speaker 2: Sure, I mean the full some pharma is like most
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Speaker 2: of the Chinese from two companies has relatively short history
5:33
Speaker 2: started about thirty years ago. We started with diagnostic business
5:37
Speaker 2: development and with the deniskate on the hepatitis C and
5:42
Speaker 2: then we move on to the generic drugs business by
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Speaker 2: acquiring several different existing farmer companies which are making generic drugs.
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Speaker 2: I think for that has been this major pillar for
5:54
Speaker 2: full some pharma in relation to the drug development for
5:58
Speaker 2: that about almost spanning for almost two decades. During the
6:02
Speaker 2: same time, we also acquired or established the medical devices
6:07
Speaker 2: and also hospitals and the vaccines, so that really made
6:11
Speaker 2: up the whole full songs five business units including established medicine,
6:15
Speaker 2: in other medicines and of course in the medtech, healthcare
6:19
Speaker 2: and vaccines. But back to how we started on the
6:23
Speaker 2: enother medicine side, back to about ten fifteen years ago
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Speaker 2: when we really realized in the innovation it is a
6:31
Speaker 2: way to go for the long term growing and we
6:34
Speaker 2: can't just copy and do the generics. So that's how
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Speaker 2: we started the first of the hellias. You know, we
6:41
Speaker 2: recruited a few US based the scientists and came back
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Speaker 2: to China to start the hellias has been but you know,
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Speaker 2: the last fifteen years became very successful. The bio pharma
6:53
Speaker 2: in relation to the antibodies related and then also we
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Speaker 2: established a small molecule business unit. I mean they I
7:00
Speaker 2: always say brownch or arm of the activities and that
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Speaker 2: one has been on the rocky road for a little
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Speaker 2: bit until last a few years, and we mostly on followers,
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Speaker 2: I mean some of the fastest, some of the slower
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Speaker 2: in relation to the Northern medicine aspect, the novel drugs,
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Speaker 2: and it was eighty percent has been on oncology, as
7:23
Speaker 2: you're going to talk about oncology. And here you know,
7:26
Speaker 2: we've been focusing on oncology for quite a long time
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Speaker 2: and from a small molecule perspective, we started to produce
7:33
Speaker 2: nbas started to have the fruits from last couple of years.
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Speaker 2: But we also are businesses, you know, like most of
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Speaker 2: the from companies with internal development plus the BD external
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Speaker 2: innovation with normally call and we also marketed a few
7:50
Speaker 2: licensed in assets to the market and again mostly on
7:55
Speaker 2: the oncology side. That's how we end up today. But
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Speaker 2: from last year we have done a major shakeup of
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Speaker 2: our you know, the new drug development and we reduced
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Speaker 2: a bit of efforts on the generic drug development, but
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Speaker 2: shifted most of our resources onto the inot medicine side
8:14
Speaker 2: by focusing on oncology continuously. At the same time we
8:19
Speaker 2: put a lot morehasis emphasis on the autommune disease as
8:23
Speaker 2: well as the degenerative neurodegmative disease like the Alzheimer's and Parkinson's.
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Speaker 2: And at the same time we'll also pay attention to
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Speaker 2: metabolic aspect including the JP one. We're also looking into
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Speaker 2: the small molecule for oural formulation and also the cardiovascular
8:41
Speaker 2: in the en region to the aspect. So it's a
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Speaker 2: focused strategy with the coordinated portfolio technical modality platform among
8:52
Speaker 2: different entities of the FUTSAL pharma either in headquarters as
8:56
Speaker 2: well as the subsidiaries of the different companies and by
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Speaker 2: moving towards the larger i would say high value drugs
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Speaker 2: as well as the global rich towards the US and
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Speaker 2: the European markets, and including we are might be slightly
9:12
Speaker 2: different from other especially big farmers. We're looking also into
9:17
Speaker 2: Middle Eastern countries as well as Southeastern Asian countries of
9:21
Speaker 2: expanding our global rich and business.
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Speaker 1: Now, so that's interesting. I mean, I have a friend
9:27
Speaker 1: of mine who is a well known immunologist who tells
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Speaker 1: me that there isn't a single disease that you can
9:35
Speaker 1: point to that doesn't have the immune system involved in it. So,
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Speaker 1: of course that is I think a very good segue
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Speaker 1: to or any of these indications cardio metabolic, chronic inflammation,
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Speaker 1: neurodegenerative diseases, and of course oncology. I think the company
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Speaker 1: has a very interesting approach to the way that it
9:51
Speaker 1: operates in other countries outside of China and even within China.
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Speaker 1: But do you want to tell us about the various
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Speaker 1: subsidiaries that you form and what the objective of those is.
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Speaker 1: Does that also help you if at some future time
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Speaker 1: political tensions became difficult to manage, to manage that aspect,
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Speaker 1: maybe talk to us about how you think about structuring
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Speaker 1: the X China businesses.
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Speaker 2: Sure you have a lot of questions buried within one question,
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Speaker 2: I will try to address it a little bit. Our
10:21
Speaker 2: grand scheme of having so many subsidiaries. We have a
10:25
Speaker 2: lot of subsidiaries is really because of our ability or competence.
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Speaker 2: At the time when we started drug development business, we
10:34
Speaker 2: were not experienced. We did not have much knowledge expertise
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Speaker 2: in the novel medicine drug development. So in the way
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Speaker 2: we starting small by starting small. The best way to
10:44
Speaker 2: do that is to start up a ball tech subsidiary
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Speaker 2: subsidiary companies with a focus on one technical platform. That's
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Speaker 2: how we started the helleuts. We start with also in
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Speaker 2: more low risk environment, we start with the bar similars.
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Speaker 2: As you know, the highest risk we developed new drug
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Speaker 2: is developed on a target which is never being developed
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Speaker 2: because you don't know what outcome is. But similars that
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Speaker 2: are different, they are proven, they're proven by the original drug.
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Speaker 2: But obviously bart similar in China. At the time when
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Speaker 2: Pelliats started, it was still as the first ever bar
11:20
Speaker 2: similar in China, so it was new in China, but
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Speaker 2: not new globally. That's how we as a grand scheme
11:27
Speaker 2: our concept to start small as part of the overall
11:31
Speaker 2: build up. The same thing as we start as a
11:33
Speaker 2: small company and then was absorbed into the headquarter becoming
11:38
Speaker 2: part of the headquarter activities. But otherwise we started with
11:41
Speaker 2: a small startup as well. At the same time, as
11:43
Speaker 2: you know, we also have our car Ti therapy that
11:46
Speaker 2: was by joint venture with the Gilead Kite and again
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Speaker 2: it's a learning process. We knew what we do not know,
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Speaker 2: so with that reason were using subsidiaries strategy to mitigate
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Speaker 2: the risk of unknowns at the same time a gradually
12:06
Speaker 2: build up. When it's becoming as matured, we will trying
12:10
Speaker 2: to absorb in like last year, you must know, we're
12:13
Speaker 2: trying to privatize Hellius. Obviously it was not very successful
12:17
Speaker 2: in that way, but that's what a part of the strategy.
12:21
Speaker 2: Same we talk about going global. I mean obviously in
12:24
Speaker 2: the current world of relatively instable environment, what we do
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Speaker 2: you know, reflected as our DNA is start on safeground
12:31
Speaker 2: and we start with bar similar again in our global
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Speaker 2: trip by collaborating with local players with you know, licensing
12:39
Speaker 2: to them or co developer, co marketing with them, and
12:43
Speaker 2: in that way we probably would avoid you know, what
12:45
Speaker 2: you call the political issues because we are making the
12:49
Speaker 2: product as a local product and there will also for
12:52
Speaker 2: example making the manufacturing site in you know, in in Saudi.
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Speaker 2: It is not saying we're not going to do in
12:58
Speaker 2: the long term in US, but we normally say we
13:02
Speaker 2: walk fast with small steps. In that way we don't fall.
13:05
Speaker 2: And by the same planning our new drug product INNO
13:10
Speaker 2: the medicine side, when the product is strong like the
13:15
Speaker 2: PD one, the subolital map. We are just completing our
13:19
Speaker 2: US bridging trial and that one we're going to market
13:23
Speaker 2: ourselves in US by our US subsidiaries. So as you
13:27
Speaker 2: can see that our strategy is not like high level
13:31
Speaker 2: approach and top down approach. We gradually building up so
13:35
Speaker 2: we don't fall understood.
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Speaker 1: Now thinking about if I think over the past ten years,
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Speaker 1: I think you've told us a little bit about the
13:42
Speaker 1: strategy over the next ten years. But if you wanted
13:44
Speaker 1: to tell me, obviously it's a crystal ball stuff. There's
13:47
Speaker 1: so much volatility in the world at the minute that's
13:50
Speaker 1: very difficult to project even three months down the road,
13:53
Speaker 1: let alone ten years down the road. But in your
13:55
Speaker 1: best hopes, where would you think Folson Pharma would be
14:00
Speaker 1: in five or ten years time with regards to split
14:02
Speaker 1: of business from say the innovative medicines versus the generic.
14:06
Speaker 1: Even by similar I mean I think in some instances
14:09
Speaker 1: by similars can sometimes be better than because they can't
14:12
Speaker 1: be by definition, But it's possible to make by similar
14:15
Speaker 1: of a drug that's or similar of a drug that's
14:17
Speaker 1: that's better but bio better. Where do you see the
14:21
Speaker 1: company in whiche a form of shape you want to
14:24
Speaker 1: refer to it in five to ten years time.
14:26
Speaker 2: This is a crystalbal question right whether five or ten years.
14:30
Speaker 2: But our strategy for future is very clear. First, we
14:34
Speaker 2: will put most of our attention on drug development. You know,
14:38
Speaker 2: we have other business. For example, we have healthcare, which
14:41
Speaker 2: our goal is to spin it off to be an
14:44
Speaker 2: independent business. We have vaccines. It's also goal to spend
14:48
Speaker 2: it off. So we're going to focus for some pharma
14:51
Speaker 2: on pharmaceutical development. That first. Second, we're going to shift
14:55
Speaker 2: ninety more than ninety percent of our resource novel drugs
14:58
Speaker 2: rather than established drugs. But when we do the normal drugs,
15:02
Speaker 2: we also, as I mentioned to you, we appreciate also
15:05
Speaker 2: understand our capabilities, so we don't want to overstretch ourselves.
15:09
Speaker 2: So our first strategy is looking into bettering class follow others,
15:14
Speaker 2: but trying to make our products somewhat distinct or differentiate
15:18
Speaker 2: from existing assets. And that one again is on safeground.
15:22
Speaker 2: Obviously you will say most others do the same. That's true,
15:26
Speaker 2: but at the same time, we don't let alone of
15:29
Speaker 2: the original research, original target development. We do this by
15:35
Speaker 2: collaborating with the colleges and universities and research institute in China.
15:40
Speaker 2: We do now have a designated fund to do this
15:45
Speaker 2: by we could hand in hand working model to work
15:50
Speaker 2: with university professors or the researchers who have been working
15:56
Speaker 2: on a novel target. Yet their capability to try late
16:01
Speaker 2: into a product it's not as good as we are,
16:04
Speaker 2: but our scientific strengths not as good as they are.
16:08
Speaker 2: So the best way is to combine both together by sharing,
16:12
Speaker 2: you know, the knowledge sharing, profit sharing the future together.
16:16
Speaker 2: And you're talking about five or ten years what we
16:19
Speaker 2: can see ourselves. We're going to be fewer product with
16:23
Speaker 2: more blockbuster potentials. We're going to be majority. I mean
16:27
Speaker 2: a large proportion can be better in class, but one
16:29
Speaker 2: or two going to be the we look into first
16:32
Speaker 2: in class potentials. So and also we're not going to
16:35
Speaker 2: be only in China. We're going to be part of
16:38
Speaker 2: global This is our second strategy is globalization. First, it's
16:43
Speaker 2: innovation globalization. And the are you know big Boss always
16:48
Speaker 2: told us is if you're not going overseas, you're going out.
16:51
Speaker 2: So which which is you know, the way how we
16:54
Speaker 2: drive our business towards two and going to I mean
17:00
Speaker 2: it's a major market Europeans and all the other countries
17:03
Speaker 2: and we're going to choose the highest value best product
17:09
Speaker 2: as our step wise approach to the you know, the
17:14
Speaker 2: market outside China. We may be initially by collaborating as
17:18
Speaker 2: you also aware, you know, our co development and establishment
17:23
Speaker 2: with the US and UK about tech as well as
17:27
Speaker 2: the big companies like Tata, and then by collaborating with them,
17:32
Speaker 2: we're not only gaining the competency and knowledge of the
17:36
Speaker 2: local market, we're also to getting you know, the abilities
17:41
Speaker 2: or good product development, good assets together and then by
17:45
Speaker 2: then we became well become a global player. It's also
17:50
Speaker 2: as my personal ambition by staying China for the time
17:53
Speaker 2: being is to see whether my experience will help one
17:57
Speaker 2: of the Chinese companies to become a true sense of
18:02
Speaker 2: M and cs like Takida from Japan, which had the
18:06
Speaker 2: same journey. My feeling is as a matter of time
18:10
Speaker 2: when you know, obviously Beijing is one of the M
18:13
Speaker 2: and c's, but Beijing is different. It's more like I
18:16
Speaker 2: normally call it this ABC the Chimes born American because
18:20
Speaker 2: you know, the CEOs, all the half of the team
18:22
Speaker 2: are based in US and we are as full a
18:26
Speaker 2: local grown China old local grown from companies. We need
18:30
Speaker 2: go the similar pattern ways as companies like Takida in
18:34
Speaker 2: Japan several decades ago. But we're all only going to
18:37
Speaker 2: go a little faster. So my confidence is in five
18:41
Speaker 2: to ten years we will be noted. I wouldn't be
18:44
Speaker 2: so ambitious ambitious that we're going to be ranked the
18:47
Speaker 2: top whatever twenty thirty or fifty, but at least we
18:50
Speaker 2: will be noted as one of the major players in
18:53
Speaker 2: on collegy field and hopefully in the you know, the
18:57
Speaker 2: autommune disease. If we do come across with a good
19:00
Speaker 2: part of but oncology will certainly well will be noted. Great.
19:05
Speaker 1: So just one last question before we move on to
19:07
Speaker 1: some specific product discussions. Obviously, this all then requires spending
19:12
Speaker 1: money on R and D. When I look at First
19:14
Speaker 1: and Farmers R and D, it was about eight to
19:16
Speaker 1: nine percent of revenues five hundred million dollars. Now that's
19:20
Speaker 1: a good R and D spend, especially in China, but
19:23
Speaker 1: your ambitions suggest that you're going to have to raise
19:26
Speaker 1: R and D spending. It's already at the lower end
19:29
Speaker 1: of what some of your colleagues in other companies in
19:32
Speaker 1: China are spending. So is the company prepared to provide
19:36
Speaker 1: that investment obviously that that's required, or are the net
19:42
Speaker 1: and ABIT DUB margin sacracent, which is always a fight
19:45
Speaker 1: between those two sides.
19:46
Speaker 2: Right, sure, obviously maybe the number you obtained might be
19:51
Speaker 2: slightly different from this source. We always have our current
19:55
Speaker 2: investment on the R and D is about this morning.
19:58
Speaker 2: We just reviewed it around thirteen percent. Our goal is
20:02
Speaker 2: actually to have a stepwise increase every year, but you know,
20:06
Speaker 2: one to two percent every year, so in kind of
20:09
Speaker 2: like on the top side, maybe anywhere between sixteen to
20:13
Speaker 2: twenty percent. We see how it goes. That's twenty percent
20:17
Speaker 2: will be our ultimate goal to be part of it.
20:19
Speaker 2: And this is the holding or the total understanding from
20:24
Speaker 2: every level of the management, from the top to mid
20:28
Speaker 2: level manage. Everybody knows this is our direction, this is
20:30
Speaker 2: our commitment. So you know, if you want to leave
20:34
Speaker 2: the big you have to invest. I mean, if you
20:37
Speaker 2: see the history of all the pharmaceuticals, the linear relationship
20:40
Speaker 2: between investment and paradaps outcome and the revenue. It's even
20:44
Speaker 2: though there are big, you know, variations, but in general
20:47
Speaker 2: there's a linear relationship.
20:48
Speaker 1: Apologies if I got my number wrong, I hope it's
20:50
Speaker 1: the only thing I get wrong this morning.
20:52
Speaker 2: So no, I mean everybody has there's a different source
20:56
Speaker 2: of the numbers.
20:57
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, no, no, So okay, let's talk about some
20:59
Speaker 1: specific products now. One of my favorite in the henliest
21:02
Speaker 1: Folkson pharma world is sur PLULYMAP, and I learned a
21:06
Speaker 1: lot more about this at the latest WCLC conference World
21:09
Speaker 1: Conference on Lung Cancer.
21:10
Speaker 2: And then before.
21:12
Speaker 1: The first thing I learned also is that it is
21:14
Speaker 1: the highest ranked product for small cell lung cancer in
21:16
Speaker 1: Europe by ESMO. And this is completely home developed, if
21:21
Speaker 1: I'm not wrong, right, So I'm interested in the story
21:24
Speaker 1: of sur plulymap. It is a PD one checkpoint inhibitor,
21:28
Speaker 1: and I've seen head to head data that looks really
21:30
Speaker 1: exciting and interesting. And of course you've got this bridging
21:32
Speaker 1: study that you already spoke about in small cell lung
21:35
Speaker 1: cancer in the US, it's literally going up against the
21:37
Speaker 1: standard of care, which is decentric plus chemo. So I'm
21:40
Speaker 1: interested in the story of this molecule and what your
21:43
Speaker 1: ambitious for it are. When I searched around, I didn't
21:46
Speaker 1: find too many other indications being tested out, But just
21:48
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about this and when we
21:50
Speaker 1: should expect data and what its history is because it
21:53
Speaker 1: is one of those situations where a molecule was discovered
21:55
Speaker 1: that it's better than what's at least in this indication.
21:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if you know the history of the
22:02
Speaker 2: PD one inhibitors, I mean there are plenty of them around.
22:06
Speaker 2: Obviously the leading ones is the contruder or the old drug,
22:10
Speaker 2: but the contruder is probably leading the whole path. It
22:13
Speaker 2: covers all different indications, probably up to forty now when
22:17
Speaker 2: we started r PD one. Obviously we're looking into it
22:22
Speaker 2: of what's put our PD one different from others. I
22:26
Speaker 2: think what the winning of the current PD one we
22:30
Speaker 2: have is the clinical developed strategy. The wind was originally developed.
22:35
Speaker 2: You know this monocular antibody. Obviously, when you do monoclonal drugs,
22:39
Speaker 2: you're also were even though we all anti the same molecule,
22:43
Speaker 2: but we are different. Every monoculon antibody is, if you develop,
22:47
Speaker 2: are different, unless you're doing about similars. You know it's
22:49
Speaker 2: a protein. You have multiple epitopes. Each of the epitopes
22:53
Speaker 2: have different functions maybe in general, I mean some of
22:57
Speaker 2: the non even non functional, and this one I don't.
23:00
Speaker 2: I would not say by choice of when you did
23:04
Speaker 2: when we designed the Separari map. It was just you know,
23:07
Speaker 2: developed one of the mono anybody's. But we looked into
23:11
Speaker 2: all the indications we were seeing small cell lung cancer
23:15
Speaker 2: wasn't successful by you know, the kutruda and also others,
23:21
Speaker 2: so we started to look into this type of different indications.
23:25
Speaker 2: So we by looking into the pre clinical data, by
23:29
Speaker 2: looking into the phase one we we kind of felt
23:33
Speaker 2: this would be the one we can better. And obviously,
23:37
Speaker 2: you know, when we do the drug development, sometimes the
23:39
Speaker 2: luck comes with it. As a biology is biology is
23:43
Speaker 2: not solid science. Often it's a it's a human, you know,
23:46
Speaker 2: it's a it's a living living organ, living cells. Sometimes
23:50
Speaker 2: depending on the right moment and the right mixture, and
23:53
Speaker 2: particularly do the clinical trials. So that's how we end
23:57
Speaker 2: up winning on small cell lung cancer and also comes
24:01
Speaker 2: out better even than the PDL one the two pl
24:05
Speaker 2: one's being approved and this was the you know, the
24:09
Speaker 2: only one I think really as a PDA one drug
24:13
Speaker 2: working so well on small cell lung cancer and apart
24:17
Speaker 2: from others. We also early next year and during the
24:22
Speaker 2: escal you will hear this big news will change the practice.
24:27
Speaker 2: We won't be able to tell you the actual results,
24:30
Speaker 2: but it's going to be big and the agement therapy
24:33
Speaker 2: on the gastrict cancer during the operation, and it could
24:38
Speaker 2: remove the needs of chemotherapy in these type of patients,
24:43
Speaker 2: and it could end up I can only tell you
24:48
Speaker 2: it could change the guideline.
24:49
Speaker 1: But that's that's a good ambition to have, right Yeah.
24:52
Speaker 1: I think maybe your other ambition should be to get
24:53
Speaker 1: the standing ovation when you present the data. That's one
24:56
Speaker 1: of the things that companies seem to to obviously enjoy.
25:00
Speaker 1: Now that what's interesting, of course, is that PD one inhibitors,
25:03
Speaker 1: as you said, have not succeeded in small cell lung
25:06
Speaker 1: cancer PDL one, which is not usually the stories. Usually
25:10
Speaker 1: PDL ones tend to beat out the PDL ones inhibitors.
25:13
Speaker 1: And part of the argument is, although I've not really
25:16
Speaker 1: being able to one hundred percent verify this or I
25:19
Speaker 1: don't think anybody can put their hand on their heart
25:21
Speaker 1: and say it's absolutely because the PD one inhibitor inhibits
25:25
Speaker 1: both PDL one and PDL two, and then of course
25:27
Speaker 1: in small cell lung cancer to centric and development, both
25:30
Speaker 1: of them have done better than PD ones. And yet
25:33
Speaker 1: you have a PD one here that seems to be
25:35
Speaker 1: doing fine so that's going to be interesting. And it
25:38
Speaker 1: does seem to me that you don't want to go
25:40
Speaker 1: and take on the king as if you want to
25:43
Speaker 1: call it kid truda, but to go at it in
25:46
Speaker 1: a very measured way rather than going into a non
25:48
Speaker 1: small cell lung cancer Keynote one eight one head to head.
25:51
Speaker 1: So but but I'm looking forward to that. I did
25:53
Speaker 1: just see the press sories from Hellllias. In fact, my
25:55
Speaker 1: colleagues are thinking a little bit more about it, and
25:57
Speaker 1: so maybe when we speak again, maybe there or just after,
26:01
Speaker 1: as we can, we can have a little bit more
26:03
Speaker 1: understanding of how that data is potentially going to look
26:06
Speaker 1: what at least the bar is. But be very excited
26:09
Speaker 1: by that. So congratulations on that news too.
26:11
Speaker 2: Oh thank you.
26:12
Speaker 1: No, no, I'm really intrigued by this molecule, as you
26:14
Speaker 1: can tell. The next one I thought we could touch
26:17
Speaker 1: on is the city K four six. Now where would
26:20
Speaker 1: you put that? Which bucket would you put that in?
26:22
Speaker 1: I know it's not a bio but is it a
26:24
Speaker 1: better or the same or how would you classify that drug?
26:28
Speaker 2: I mean, this is a tough one because I would
26:31
Speaker 2: say in general it would be the similar, maybe slightly
26:35
Speaker 2: better in safety wise from the effocacy point of view,
26:40
Speaker 2: which is not that much different from the Kiskali of
26:44
Speaker 2: no maders, and it's not that much different from you know,
26:48
Speaker 2: the other but it does have some a slightly different
26:52
Speaker 2: uniqueness as one as passing through the blackbrain barrier. Seems
26:57
Speaker 2: a little bit more because the Clinker results does indicate
27:02
Speaker 2: I mean it was approved for first line and second
27:04
Speaker 2: line the therapy on the lung cancer. I mean also
27:07
Speaker 2: it is the safety profiles. It also appears to be
27:11
Speaker 2: less aggressive than the current existing drugs, So I would
27:15
Speaker 2: say it was this a ralevant mild safety profile with
27:20
Speaker 2: similar or in certain aspects prove the better efficacy. I
27:24
Speaker 2: think this drug on the market or either world achieve
27:28
Speaker 2: its value.
27:28
Speaker 1: In terms of potential outside of China. Of course, the
27:33
Speaker 1: complication potentially is that Ibrands is heading for genericization, and
27:39
Speaker 1: you've also got two pretty hefty competitors in the forms
27:42
Speaker 1: of Kiskli and publicyclib so we have publicyic lipsyclib et cetera.
27:47
Speaker 1: So anyway, we're in a world that's complicated. But I
27:50
Speaker 1: often find that drugs that do have better CNS penetration
27:54
Speaker 1: do have an opportunity to really take hold when you've
27:56
Speaker 1: got a disease where CNS metastasis is a significant part
28:01
Speaker 1: of it. So let's hope that that's the case now.
28:03
Speaker 1: In another area that's also breast cancer, potentially not focused
28:07
Speaker 1: but also impacts breast cancer is the HLX twenty twenty two,
28:10
Speaker 1: which is a HER two targeting antibody with non overlapping
28:14
Speaker 1: epitopes with other drugs, particularly trustuosumap. So just interested in
28:19
Speaker 1: your thinking about where that fits in the what is
28:21
Speaker 1: the target product profile here? How do you feel that
28:24
Speaker 1: would fit with the evolving competition from drugs, legs, any
28:28
Speaker 1: data map, alpha maps, kN O twenty six of course,
28:31
Speaker 1: and her two which is an ADC and remagen which
28:33
Speaker 1: is also an ADC decittemapt. What's your thinking there?
28:37
Speaker 2: Sure you know, as I mentioned Mona Klana, anybody is
28:39
Speaker 2: are this hurt who is different from the other her tools.
28:42
Speaker 2: It's also working on the domain four but same as
28:47
Speaker 2: you know the trash, but the at the same time
28:51
Speaker 2: is a different epitope of the same domain, so it
28:54
Speaker 2: comes with slightly different function. When it works together, it
28:59
Speaker 2: end up as a little bit better outcomes or in
29:02
Speaker 2: much better outcomes, and for the hr X twenty two,
29:06
Speaker 2: we also adopt the similar strategy as when we did
29:09
Speaker 2: the PD one drug and we started with GATS strict
29:12
Speaker 2: cancer metastic gat strict cancer the first indication to develop
29:16
Speaker 2: rather than breast cancer, but breast cancer currently is also
29:19
Speaker 2: on phase two. And this gastric cancer, what we have
29:22
Speaker 2: shown by giving patients together with tres Tuto map from
29:27
Speaker 2: phase two results, it really has dramatic outcome and if
29:31
Speaker 2: you talk about the target product profile, it has at
29:36
Speaker 2: least in the HR somewhere around point six in the
29:39
Speaker 2: PFS and for the OS is somewhere around point seven.
29:44
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously when we come to the phase three
29:47
Speaker 2: data hasn't come out, I mean hasn't completed yet, but
29:50
Speaker 2: it's going to be twenty twenty seven, and it's currently
29:53
Speaker 2: conducting the US led by the PI from MD Anderson,
29:58
Speaker 2: and this one again by phase two data showed really
30:04
Speaker 2: far better profile than you threw the other herto alone.
30:09
Speaker 2: And obviously when we do also looking at the breast
30:13
Speaker 2: cancer currently on phase two, as I mentioned, is also
30:17
Speaker 2: going to be like you do together. Our current belief
30:20
Speaker 2: is a duel the her to inhibitor by working together
30:24
Speaker 2: or giving patients together with TOOMAP, you will have a
30:29
Speaker 2: much better outcome. I mean, I would say this again
30:33
Speaker 2: reflected when we choose which indication to develop first as
30:38
Speaker 2: a clinical development strategy, this is another winning example. And
30:43
Speaker 2: when I remember when I was in the artists, we
30:45
Speaker 2: talk about the capabilities of a clinical development one of
30:50
Speaker 2: the keys is how do you design your clinical development
30:53
Speaker 2: proposal of the plan. It's a strategy which indications start first,
30:58
Speaker 2: which often determines whether you're ale to secure enough resource
31:02
Speaker 2: to continue the development of the asset. So this again reflecting.
31:06
Speaker 1: That, thank you for that. So there is I think
31:09
Speaker 1: maybe is it an obvious question, is this something that
31:12
Speaker 1: you would you could use as a backbone from ADC also,
31:15
Speaker 1: and then if not, could you see it as a
31:19
Speaker 1: combo with a this is about valotine or an her too.
31:23
Speaker 2: I mean obviously when we come to ADC, ADC is
31:27
Speaker 2: probably currently most popular ones and the shortcomings, I mean
31:31
Speaker 2: the shortfall of ADC is also obvious because of the
31:34
Speaker 2: potential toxicity. I think with this hurtle together with unhurtle,
31:39
Speaker 2: with ADC combined, you probably would be able to have
31:44
Speaker 2: a less toxic effect by reducing those a bit of
31:47
Speaker 2: the ADCs. Because this particularly effect, and I do see
31:51
Speaker 2: the potential combination, but need to be touch trated well
31:55
Speaker 2: the of the dose in order to reduce the ADC
31:58
Speaker 2: side effect and at the same time improved or materennial
32:02
Speaker 2: improve the efficacy together.
32:04
Speaker 1: And you don't see a risk of interference between the
32:07
Speaker 1: two antibodies because they have different epitopes quite different.
32:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, so far we have not seen. We have tested
32:12
Speaker 2: quite a few different you know, the hurt to anybody
32:15
Speaker 2: hasn't been overlapping. Again, we developed the monoclonels. Sometimes you
32:20
Speaker 2: don't do that by design because you don't really know
32:23
Speaker 2: when you design the monol and often you by screening
32:28
Speaker 2: out the ones you fail be standing up or unique
32:32
Speaker 2: of which ipoitope are working on. So right, interesting biology.
32:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Now in terms of the drug that
32:40
Speaker 1: I forgot, it's Verzennio of course, So we have Vergennio,
32:43
Speaker 1: Ibrands and Kiskelle and in the city k for six
32:46
Speaker 1: inhibitors and that the is Lily's. Kiskally is the artists
32:50
Speaker 1: and Ibrands is Pizer. Yes we we.
32:54
Speaker 2: When I was in the market, who called Kiskalli.
32:56
Speaker 1: Yes, that's right. Oh yeah, well, you know I'm in England,
32:59
Speaker 1: so I come up with my own pronunciation for stuff
33:02
Speaker 1: for sure.
33:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one of the interesting side of pharma companies.
33:07
Speaker 2: They always making the name which difficult struggling to pronounce well.
33:12
Speaker 1: And they've been becoming very good at it, even better
33:15
Speaker 1: at recently making it major tongue twisters. And so let's
33:19
Speaker 1: touch on very quickly on HLX forty three. We saw
33:22
Speaker 1: some data at w c LC for this agent, which
33:26
Speaker 1: is a antibody drug contricate targeting PDL one. I am
33:29
Speaker 1: slightly biased towards drug that use drugs that use PDL
33:33
Speaker 1: one for a targeting a methodology which, of course from
33:39
Speaker 1: it you get kind of a double whammy. You get
33:43
Speaker 1: potentially tumor targeting, but of course PDL one is not
33:46
Speaker 1: just tumor cell expressed, and you also get inhibition of
33:51
Speaker 1: PDL one, so you get a you get a double
33:53
Speaker 1: wammy in there, whereas if you just use a pd one,
33:56
Speaker 1: in fact, you clearly risk killing the t cells. Talk
33:59
Speaker 1: to us a little bit about this agent and what
34:01
Speaker 1: your hopes are here. You're in a slightly different setup
34:04
Speaker 1: recording metaesthetic as a virginial garcinoma scream is garcinoma and
34:08
Speaker 1: actually advance non small cell lung cancer. So talk to
34:12
Speaker 1: us a little bit about where this is going and
34:14
Speaker 1: where your hopes are.
34:16
Speaker 2: I mean, currently we have over about thirteen different indications
34:19
Speaker 2: we are working on almost like trying to make it,
34:23
Speaker 2: you know, anticipating as a fundamental therapies for most of
34:28
Speaker 2: the solid tumor of the pl one expressing solid tumor.
34:33
Speaker 2: Obviously you need to for the tumors we anticipate to
34:36
Speaker 2: respond well as we currently observe the non cell lung
34:40
Speaker 2: cancer responding very well. Some of the cancers not responding
34:44
Speaker 2: well as we test it in our phase two. Of
34:48
Speaker 2: the thirteen different you know, the solid tumors is the
34:53
Speaker 2: ones we're anticipating or as also expected is the PDO
34:59
Speaker 2: one rich tumors, and that would be the patients we
35:04
Speaker 2: will feel will get most benefit of and as a
35:08
Speaker 2: part of development strategy and we have a good drug
35:11
Speaker 2: like this, we like full on, all in type of approach.
35:16
Speaker 2: In our face two were just screening almost like screening
35:19
Speaker 2: out each group. You may have like eighty patients, sixty
35:23
Speaker 2: patients depending on the prevalence, depending on severity, and to
35:27
Speaker 2: see how it go. It's almost like screening and at
35:31
Speaker 2: the moment, we're for sure will go to phase three.
35:34
Speaker 2: It's a non cell lung cancer. And back to your question,
35:37
Speaker 2: you have two concerns. Obviously, one is other teasues. Some
35:41
Speaker 2: of the other teases also express PDL ones, so this
35:44
Speaker 2: is had to be carefully touchrated in relation to the
35:46
Speaker 2: e And you know, for most of the current immunotherapies,
35:52
Speaker 2: and you always come across that type of risk. That's
35:55
Speaker 2: why sometimes you think about it. It's eighty s can
35:59
Speaker 2: solve the problem, will not? You know, you can have
36:02
Speaker 2: you know, the T cell engage or double antibodies might
36:06
Speaker 2: have a better profile eventually. And also even with PDL
36:11
Speaker 2: one inhibitor adiocies, you're hoping it not only killed PDL
36:15
Speaker 2: one cancer cells expressing can cells, also the the neighbors,
36:20
Speaker 2: the ones bystanders, but that do not or PL one
36:25
Speaker 2: low And as interesting as you said PD one, you
36:30
Speaker 2: you block it to make sure it does as active
36:35
Speaker 2: T cells towards cancer cells, you don't get muted by
36:39
Speaker 2: the PD one. But it's the same thing. It's only
36:42
Speaker 2: about forty two around forty fifty of patients responding to
36:47
Speaker 2: PD one, so which clearly indicate you know, some of
36:52
Speaker 2: the solid tumors is not really expressing all cells expressing
36:57
Speaker 2: the PDL one. And even you kill these expression ones,
37:03
Speaker 2: you're still going to be like P one nective cancer
37:06
Speaker 2: cells get become dominant. So these are still the issue
37:11
Speaker 2: to be resolved. The p ON one or the forty three.
37:15
Speaker 2: It will be major breakthrough, but it's certainly not to
37:19
Speaker 2: be the end of story is to resolve all the issues.
37:23
Speaker 2: But we do feel this p D this a d
37:26
Speaker 2: C again, Sam, you know it's bad first for as
37:33
Speaker 2: a scientist to say that this. Sometimes you design drug
37:37
Speaker 2: and also playing a bit on on on the lock
37:41
Speaker 2: and as a d C looking at which star will
37:45
Speaker 2: give you the best outcome, the balance of risk benefit
37:48
Speaker 2: the benefit, you really don't know until you test it.
37:52
Speaker 2: So we sometimes also, you know, why we try all
37:55
Speaker 2: different solid tumors. This is one of the reasons I
37:59
Speaker 2: think we have very high hope on this truck to make,
38:02
Speaker 2: you know, to become a blockbuster.
38:04
Speaker 1: Well, we're certainly watching it. And you know, as you
38:06
Speaker 1: talk about luck, I don't think any scientists would put
38:10
Speaker 1: luck aside ever as a major factor in their own
38:13
Speaker 1: success and the success of their science, and even companies.
38:17
Speaker 1: You know, I've just finished reading a completely unrelated autobiography
38:20
Speaker 1: of Bill Gates, and when we are together for the
38:24
Speaker 1: new or I can talk to you about the one
38:26
Speaker 1: event that I think happened, which was luck that enabled
38:30
Speaker 1: I mean, it's my view. So anyway, just before we
38:33
Speaker 1: move on to the broader topic of China, is there
38:35
Speaker 1: you obviously have done new co with for Beyond recently
38:38
Speaker 1: announced in August. I do you want to talk to
38:40
Speaker 1: us a little bit about that? And then we move
38:42
Speaker 1: on to China? What is is that it? Should we
38:44
Speaker 1: expect more? How does that all come together for.
38:48
Speaker 2: The next three to five years. They saw what become
38:51
Speaker 2: a regular normal practice. It's not only the model is
38:56
Speaker 2: not only we have our early asset good asset by
39:01
Speaker 2: license ol we co license OEU the general term, but
39:04
Speaker 2: more or less as a code development, we're also working
39:07
Speaker 2: on with some of the US very big capital fund
39:12
Speaker 2: of the order to make type of collaboration they nominate target,
39:18
Speaker 2: we produce. There's another way as a reverse type of collaboration.
39:22
Speaker 2: We use the strength of our efficiency productivity. They use
39:27
Speaker 2: their knowledge. Again, this is not going to be a
39:30
Speaker 2: kind of like overwhelming strategy. This is gonna be like
39:34
Speaker 2: somewhat transient strategy of one you get some access to
39:39
Speaker 2: the global or international fund. Two you get access to
39:43
Speaker 2: global talents and they do you know, we must admit
39:47
Speaker 2: our team drug development competence or the ability is not
39:52
Speaker 2: as good an upper part of our international colleagues. And
39:56
Speaker 2: three the market and standing. As you know, the healthcare
40:01
Speaker 2: so often local for local even though we have a
40:03
Speaker 2: global guidelines, but still the local practice are different. When
40:08
Speaker 2: you come to clinical trials of m RCTs, that has
40:12
Speaker 2: to be part of your major designs. When I was
40:16
Speaker 2: running global trials in a marta is one of the
40:19
Speaker 2: main learnings is some of the country to country differences
40:23
Speaker 2: in clinical practice which can often affect your clinical trial outcome.
40:29
Speaker 2: So all this as part of our overall strategy of
40:32
Speaker 2: become a global player.
40:34
Speaker 1: Great now I'm going to move on to China quickly.
40:36
Speaker 1: I wish we had more time. There's so many interesting
40:39
Speaker 1: So another drug that I was quite keen on it
40:41
Speaker 1: was PD one targeted dial to fusion protein. And it's
40:44
Speaker 1: funny I just saw a paper in published yesterday or
40:48
Speaker 1: two days ago to thirteen from Kevin Barry's lab OIL
40:51
Speaker 1: two signaling induces in K cell production of FLIT three
40:55
Speaker 1: LG augmenting ANTIPD one immune therapy. There's a lot of
40:59
Speaker 1: interest in these small cytokinds, et cetera, but we don't
41:02
Speaker 1: have much time for that. Maybe that's the reason for
41:05
Speaker 1: you to accept another invitation from me in the future.
41:08
Speaker 1: We'll think about it. But I want to talk about
41:11
Speaker 1: China biotech. Going by the HS bio Index is up
41:16
Speaker 1: seventy percent in the past twelve months, versus five percent
41:19
Speaker 1: for the US XBI, which is the S and P
41:21
Speaker 1: five hundred biotech ETF index. What's been do you think
41:25
Speaker 1: behind this? I do remember about this time last year
41:28
Speaker 1: I was in China. We had an event in our
41:31
Speaker 1: Hong Kong office, and there wasn't as much positivity. I
41:35
Speaker 1: mean it was there, but not as much, and people
41:37
Speaker 1: were nagging about two or three months years of vcs
41:42
Speaker 1: have pulled back a little bit, et cetera. So it
41:44
Speaker 1: sounded the same as I'm hearing in US Europe. But
41:47
Speaker 1: obviously then everything changed and moved up. So how is
41:52
Speaker 1: what's been driving that? From your perspective. I know you're
41:54
Speaker 1: not necessarily a you know, a banking space, but at
41:58
Speaker 1: least you know the industry. And then as you answered that,
42:01
Speaker 1: please tell us a little bit about what you think
42:03
Speaker 1: is the most what are the most misunderstood aspects of
42:06
Speaker 1: China biotech farma because the Western friends of mine love
42:11
Speaker 1: to question the quality of data, et cetera, et cetera.
42:15
Speaker 1: Maybe you can set that straight.
42:17
Speaker 2: Sure, I mean there's multi factors coming into it. You know,
42:22
Speaker 2: why is your original question or Hong Kong market sector
42:27
Speaker 2: seventy percent or US is five percent? I think this
42:31
Speaker 2: is probably is in relative term, the Hong Kong or
42:35
Speaker 2: Asian or China related about bow tech sector was disproportionally
42:40
Speaker 2: suppressed over the last few years. So this rebounds more
42:44
Speaker 2: US in certain propulsion was regaining its right positioning rather
42:50
Speaker 2: than only because of the bow tech activities, which is
42:53
Speaker 2: coming to the second US is always on the high side,
42:57
Speaker 2: you know, they may be overvalued before. And on the
43:02
Speaker 2: second aspect or the major driver of the China bootech's output.
43:08
Speaker 2: This has been over the last ten years. I would
43:10
Speaker 2: say the China bootech started to become growing, to become established,
43:15
Speaker 2: to become a player like today is accumulation of the
43:19
Speaker 2: time of why it comes. You know, you might or
43:24
Speaker 2: Western must say it's all of sudden, it's not all
43:26
Speaker 2: of sudden. There were two major factors. The Chinese academic
43:31
Speaker 2: development growth is spanning for the last forty years, and
43:35
Speaker 2: that's why the publications in the top journals like Sales, Science,
43:40
Speaker 2: Nature from Chinese institutions nowadays numberwise similar to US, but
43:46
Speaker 2: that provided a lot of talents. The second is US.
43:50
Speaker 2: You know Returney is Repatrick Farm US. Most of this,
43:54
Speaker 2: if you're looking at the bottotech of the startup farm China,
43:59
Speaker 2: either came return from US Big Pharma or return from
44:03
Speaker 2: US as a graduate student. And most of these technologies
44:09
Speaker 2: and talents are more or less had gained the US
44:14
Speaker 2: learning US experiences, and which is the reason why their
44:19
Speaker 2: standards are similar to what US standards are. And if
44:25
Speaker 2: you look at any industry development in the early time,
44:28
Speaker 2: you may talk about the quality is an issue because
44:31
Speaker 2: when they are learning, but these people often are veterans,
44:36
Speaker 2: mature in the druct developers. And when you come to
44:40
Speaker 2: drugt development, you know your money your dollar in it.
44:45
Speaker 2: It's not like we only do academic research. Your outcome
44:49
Speaker 2: is publications. This is real silver and gold. So nobody
44:55
Speaker 2: in general term, I'm not saying maybe a few exceptions
44:59
Speaker 2: well come from their quality. So I currently very trusting.
45:03
Speaker 2: Obviously you need to do very nice due diligence and
45:06
Speaker 2: the last two license out deals I experienced how US
45:10
Speaker 2: and the UK do their due diligence and even long
45:14
Speaker 2: due diligence, they still pass their scrutiny, which means that
45:17
Speaker 2: most of the chals you know, the biotech companies the
45:21
Speaker 2: current term, it would in general trust their quality. But
45:24
Speaker 2: once you come to clinical trial again, nobody at this stage,
45:28
Speaker 2: or I would say nobody, very majority of the clinical
45:32
Speaker 2: trial trialists are try their best, but some of their
45:36
Speaker 2: experience is not there yet. That's why the poor Sometimes
45:41
Speaker 2: you do notice the poor quality of the clinical trials.
45:44
Speaker 2: It's not intentional, I see, it's just the lack of experience.
45:48
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's a part of a growing process. Is if
45:52
Speaker 2: you're look in at the back of US companies say
45:55
Speaker 2: fifty years ago, do the same thing.
45:57
Speaker 1: And so the last thing I wanted to ask you
45:59
Speaker 1: about what are the key advantages of START. I mean
46:02
Speaker 1: phase three is at the end of the day and
46:04
Speaker 1: bridging studies have to be done in the country that
46:07
Speaker 1: or at least you know if you want if you
46:08
Speaker 1: wanted a US product wanting to come to China. I
46:11
Speaker 1: have to show that they work in Chinese population because
46:14
Speaker 1: of the obvious differences in genetics and environment, et cetera.
46:18
Speaker 1: But in the earlier stages, would you say, I don't
46:21
Speaker 1: want to put words in your mouth? What do you say?
46:23
Speaker 1: I think is the one of the key advantages of
46:26
Speaker 1: Facility Incorporated wants to bring this drug to development into
46:32
Speaker 1: phase one? What is What is the advantage that China
46:34
Speaker 1: offers specifically?
46:36
Speaker 2: I would say the main ones is productivity, second is
46:42
Speaker 2: access to the talents, and third one is access to
46:46
Speaker 2: the services and patients, particularly for phase one. Face. Most
46:51
Speaker 2: of teaching hospitals in China have Phase one units. Nowadays
46:55
Speaker 2: they're designated. Some of them have even forty beds, which
47:00
Speaker 2: is almost impossible in US. You don't designate your best
47:05
Speaker 2: into as a phase one staty unit, but in China
47:07
Speaker 2: you do. That's why for phase one is.
47:10
Speaker 1: Going to be very quick, right, And that's probably where
47:12
Speaker 1: at least the proof of concept is there.
47:13
Speaker 2: Yeah.
47:13
Speaker 1: And of course in terms of development, are you telling
47:17
Speaker 1: me that that Chinese Your Chinese colleagues work twenty four
47:21
Speaker 1: to seven, therefore their productivities higher.
47:25
Speaker 2: At least twelve hours a day and seven or five
47:29
Speaker 2: or six or six half days a week.
47:31
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I'm glad. I'm glad I didn't have to
47:33
Speaker 1: work there anyway, shinkly. This has been fantastic. Thank you
47:37
Speaker 1: very much. Any final words from you.
47:40
Speaker 2: I would just say, you know, for the audience, should
47:43
Speaker 2: not be putting a colored glasses on when you look
47:47
Speaker 2: at China. Agree, and we're just part of part of
47:50
Speaker 2: the world. Were saying, we same people used to work
47:54
Speaker 2: together with you.
47:54
Speaker 1: People are scared of the speed with which China has evolved.
47:58
Speaker 1: I know that in bio perhaps is more catching up
48:00
Speaker 1: to do, but if you look at some of the
48:01
Speaker 1: analysis people do in the materials engineering, I mean, China leads.
48:07
Speaker 1: It's not a question of how much longer do they
48:10
Speaker 1: have before they catch up. It's others that have to
48:12
Speaker 1: catch up. So we shouldn't We shouldn't punish hard work, right.
48:16
Speaker 2: Of course, I totally agree with you that, Sam.
48:18
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Glee. It's been fantastic and I'll
48:21
Speaker 1: really look forward to seeing you soon and thank you
48:24
Speaker 1: for joining us well.
48:25
Speaker 2: Thank you so much Sam for giving opportunities and thanks
48:28
Speaker 2: thank you again as usages