Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOM MISSING: DAY 50

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SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOM MISSING: DAY 50 · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie missing.
0:10
Speaker 1: We learn one car in particular, taking center stage in
0:13
Speaker 1: the FBI's analysis, a white vehicle seen in the maze
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Speaker 1: of streets surrounding Nancy's home. What is the latest tonight?
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Speaker 1: We're also learning that this vacant home may have been
0:28
Speaker 1: used as a staging area for the kidnapper. Does that
0:34
Speaker 1: explain why we don't see the kidnapper entering or exiting
0:38
Speaker 1: from a vehicle. He's in no rush. The dog behind
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Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's home goes crazy at two am. Is it
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Speaker 1: because he didn't need a car because he has a
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Speaker 1: staging area near Nancy's home in her very own neighborhood. Also,
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Speaker 1: the FBI focusing on pharmaceutical records that are similar to
1:01
Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's medication. All of this happening while we learn
1:07
Speaker 1: that the casting attempts failed trying to get footprints or
1:12
Speaker 1: tracks outside the home. The FBI now apparently looking at
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Speaker 1: electro static lift prints from inside the home. And what
1:22
Speaker 1: is Nano's doing during all of this? He's going to
1:26
Speaker 1: the gym. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
1:31
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us. One
1:34
Speaker 1: vehicle in particular is taking center stage with the FBI
1:38
Speaker 1: search for Nancy Guthrie. It is a white vehicle straight
1:43
Speaker 1: out to Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter Dave mac
1:47
Speaker 1: It's curious. The Via Entrata is like a maze of
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Speaker 1: streets and intersections surrounding it's part of that anyway, surrounding
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Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's home. What can you tell me about Pma
2:00
Speaker 1: County Sheriffs requesting now surveillance footage, anything neighbors may have
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Speaker 1: of a vehicle. Tell me what you know.
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Speaker 2: Well, the law enforcement, we're talking the FBI and the
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Speaker 2: Sheriff's department asking all of the homes in the area,
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Speaker 2: if they have a camera pointed towards the street, to
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Speaker 2: go back and get that video for the law enforcement
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Speaker 2: because they don't want it being recorded over You're showing
2:25
Speaker 2: right there, at two two thirty eight in the morning,
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Speaker 2: we've got a car within two and a half miles
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Speaker 2: of Nancy Guthrie's home seen on ring camera. This is
2:36
Speaker 2: a shocker because when the Sheriff's department first put up
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Speaker 2: their ring of area, they were confident in was about
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Speaker 2: two miles. This is at two and a half miles,
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Speaker 2: so they missed it. Now, this is becoming a huge
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Speaker 2: part of the investigation as law enforcement is trying to
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Speaker 2: identify what type of vehicle it is and anything else
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Speaker 2: they can find. So they're looking for any vehicles traveling
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Speaker 2: along these roads that match up with this vehicle, trying
3:02
Speaker 2: to identify it Nancy, and they're looking for every camera
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Speaker 2: they can find.
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Speaker 1: I'm going to go straight out to Scott Iiker joining us,
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Speaker 1: a founding member of the FBI's By the way, this
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Speaker 1: video is from our friends at Fox News, the FBI
3:15
Speaker 1: Cellular Analysis Survey team, but also homicide investigator in Norfolk
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Speaker 1: Police has worked so many missing people cases he can't
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Speaker 1: count them now at Precision Cellular Analysis. Scott Iiker, speaking
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Speaker 1: of the car, I think it's very telling that Pema
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Speaker 1: County Sheriffs is asking now for footage of vehicles in
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Speaker 1: the neighborhood and they ask for footage about a car
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Speaker 1: the morning ten a m. The morning of the kidnap
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Speaker 1: that would have been January thirty one.
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Speaker 3: What do you think, Well, this is the normal process
4:01
Speaker 3: of the investigation like this, you have breakout groups that
4:05
Speaker 3: are looking at different sections of the investigation. I'm sure
4:08
Speaker 3: there's one group of investigators that are saying, Okay, we're
4:12
Speaker 3: going to concentrate on trying to identify this car scene
4:15
Speaker 3: going by the cactuses, and we got to start working
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Speaker 3: on that. So they'll follow that path. They'll go out
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Speaker 3: and talk to the neighbors. They'll help the neighbors access
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Speaker 3: their cameras, because as we know, some people are not
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Speaker 3: very good at accessing their film and their footage. They'll
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Speaker 3: go to the businesses and they're going to keep asking
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Speaker 3: the public to provide anything they have that might help
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Speaker 3: identify vehicles that were in the area at that time.
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Speaker 3: We're doing the same thing with the cell phones, right
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Speaker 3: We're following cell phones. Hopefully we see a cell phone
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Speaker 3: follow that same track as that car went from Nancy's
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Speaker 3: neighborhood to that main street. Things like that will help
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Speaker 3: us clue and piece it together.
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Speaker 1: You know that significant. Right out to Joe Scott Morgan
5:01
Speaker 1: joining US Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood
5:05
Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of the hitting
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Speaker 1: new series Body Bags. With Joseph Scott Morgan, we're showing
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Speaker 1: you some photos from our friends at Fox, Joe Scott,
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Speaker 1: he just brought up something really interesting. Well, among many
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Speaker 1: things tonight focus on a vehicle Joe Scott at ten
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Speaker 1: a M ten a m jan thirty one, January thirty one,
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Speaker 1: which tells me they believe the perp was in broad
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Speaker 1: daylight January thirty one. And before I lose the thought,
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, what I could just said, remember in Alex
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Speaker 1: Murdogg's trial that you and I investigated ourselves. We see
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Speaker 1: Murdog's huge hank and suv traveling the night of the
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Speaker 1: murders when he murdered Paul and Maggie, his wife and son,
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Speaker 1: with his cell phone scratching off from the scene, and
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Speaker 1: he had Maggie's cell phone with him the info the
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Speaker 1: black box, so to speak, inside his suv shows him
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Speaker 1: stopping the car, lowering the passenger side window. That is
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Speaker 1: where we find Maggie's cell phone thrown out the window
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Speaker 1: right there. So very often we see cell phones traveling
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Speaker 1: with a car. And my point is that if we
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Speaker 1: get a cell phone traveling with the car at ten
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Speaker 1: am January thirty one, now we've got a cell number,
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Speaker 1: because even if the perp turned off a sell the
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Speaker 1: night of the kidnapping. I guarantee you he didn't turn
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Speaker 1: it off the morning of the kidnapping ten am.
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Speaker 4: See where I'm going, Yeah, yeah, why would you? And again,
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Speaker 4: this is another one of these benchmarks relative to benchmarking
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Speaker 4: that immediate point in time. And this goes back to
7:08
Speaker 4: a theory that I've held on and other people have
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Speaker 4: held on two over the time, and that's the idea
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Speaker 4: of casing this area, just going back and making sure
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Speaker 4: that everything is as they perceive it to be, maybe
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Speaker 4: taking one last glance at the area before they go
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Speaker 4: in to do whatever it is that they're going to do,
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Speaker 4: and assessing the area. I think that this is very
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Speaker 4: very critical piece of information, Nancy, because if they can
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Speaker 4: tie that back to a suspect here, this is going
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Speaker 4: to be critical moving forward with the case.
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Speaker 1: Specifically, on day one, Bryan Fitzgibbons joining us USP, a
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Speaker 1: nationwide security let me just say again, leading a team
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Speaker 1: of investigators that do nothing but find missing people and
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Speaker 1: extract them. Former Marine Iraqi war Ves Gibbons. Day one,
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Speaker 1: you and I said, Carr car, you've got Brian Coburger
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Speaker 1: cracked with a car. Yes, we hear about the DNA analysis,
8:05
Speaker 1: which was amazing. But it all started with a clerk
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Speaker 1: at a gas station seeing his white Ilauncha speeding by
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Speaker 1: around four a m. The morning of the murders, right,
8:18
Speaker 1: and she gave that to police, and the alarm went
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Speaker 1: out to all law enforcement, including campus police, about a
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Speaker 1: white Elantra. A campus cop at WSU Washington State University says, oh,
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Speaker 1: who's registered on campus for a parking spot with a
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Speaker 1: white Elantra. Oh, Brian Coburger. That's where his name came
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Speaker 1: from because of his car. And then I like to
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Speaker 1: use the case of glam yoga instructor Caitlin Armstrong. She
8:45
Speaker 1: murdered her love rival, a world class dirt bike champion,
8:51
Speaker 1: because of over a man really, and her SUV is
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Speaker 1: seen circling and circling and circling the murder, saying, and
9:01
Speaker 1: then of course there's Molly Tibbets. She goes out for
9:04
Speaker 1: a jog after studying all afternoon and over and there
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Speaker 1: she is. There's Molly, and this guy keeps approaching her
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Speaker 1: because of distinctive markings on his vehicle. He's tracked through
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Speaker 1: a vehicle. Day one, Fitzgibbons, we said, car and I'm
9:22
Speaker 1: not giving you or myself a pal on the back.
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Speaker 1: I'm saying, if this is the car, if this is
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Speaker 1: the car at ten am Jan thirty one, that they're
9:29
Speaker 1: interested in jackpot? Maybe yeah.
9:33
Speaker 5: And you know, hey, you can go to great lengths
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Speaker 5: to hide a cell phone. You could not take it.
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Speaker 5: You could put it in a airplane mode, it could
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Speaker 5: be in a Faraday bag to try to keep Scott
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Speaker 5: Aiker from finding you. But you can't hide a car.
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Speaker 5: You can't hide a vehicle. So the hope is that
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Speaker 5: if we can identify this vehicle and start to piece
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Speaker 5: together some of the video evidence from the surrounding area.
10:00
Speaker 5: And you know, experts on this case have gone to
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Speaker 5: great lengths, including Douglas McGregor, who's been on this show,
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Speaker 5: to map out the potential avenues of egress from Missus
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Speaker 5: Guthrie's home. So that's got to be the focus, is
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Speaker 5: getting the description of that vehicle and trying to find
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Speaker 5: some video evidence of it to tie it back to him.
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Speaker 1: Okay, Scott Iker, how do you trace a car once
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Speaker 1: we have the picture? If we get the picture at
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Speaker 1: ten am, they've got to have a reason that they're
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Speaker 1: saying ten am the morning of the kidnap Jan thirty one,
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Speaker 1: she's kidnapped. Go through the clock the next morning around
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Speaker 1: two am. Why are they saying ten a m. Jan
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Speaker 1: thirty one. They've got to have a reason for saying that.
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Speaker 1: Was there an eye witness? Remember early on a neighbor
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Speaker 1: said they had seen a strange car that didn't belong
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Speaker 1: to anybody sitting out on the street for an extended
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Speaker 1: period of time near Nancy's sum Is it that car
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Speaker 1: or we finally tying something together tonight. So let's just
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Speaker 1: pretend argument say it is the car. They've got a time,
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Speaker 1: they have a time, they must know about a car.
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Speaker 1: So how do we track it?
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Speaker 6: Well, there are several different ways.
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Speaker 3: One, we've talked about the videos, and they've got to
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Speaker 3: really push that to get that from all the neighbors,
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Speaker 3: all the businesses. Two is looking at the cell phones
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Speaker 3: embedded in cars. If it's a newer type vehicle, we
11:32
Speaker 3: can narrow that down through the tower dumps of that area,
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Speaker 3: identifying the type of cars that are there. Hopefully it'll
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Speaker 3: match the types of cars, and then we can track
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Speaker 3: those cars and the cell phones that are traveling with
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Speaker 3: those cars at those specific times. So that would help
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Speaker 3: us get to those points of hopefully identifying who that
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Speaker 3: is and what kind of car there is, and then
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Speaker 3: where they went to after they were in the area
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Speaker 3: around the time of the reception.
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Speaker 1: So here's another question out to you, Joseph Scott Morgan.
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Speaker 1: Can they trace the car's movements? Which way was it going?
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Speaker 1: Does it match potentially one of the cars caught two
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Speaker 1: point five miles away the night of the kidnapping that
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Speaker 1: we see on video. Is it one of those cars?
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Speaker 1: Can we connect that? Can we connect it to the
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Speaker 1: car that's been sitting out in the neighborhood surveiling. Can
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Speaker 1: we connect it to the car that was spotted at
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Speaker 1: a gas station seven to eleven type store that night?
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Speaker 1: I mean there's cars out the ying yang. A white
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Speaker 1: vehicle was spotted on ring cam seven minutes away from
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Speaker 1: Nancy's home. Are the pieces of the puzzle finally fitting
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Speaker 1: together regarding a vehicle because now we know, Joe Scott,
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Speaker 1: they're looking at a specific vehicle. We think it's a
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Speaker 1: white vehicle the morning she's taken. There's zeroing in on that,
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, what else is your analysis?
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Speaker 4: Well, going to my esteem colleague, mister Iker, I think
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Speaker 4: that the most critical bit to this is trying to
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Speaker 4: get that videography from all these other locations and they
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Speaker 4: can kind of create what I would call a mosaic
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Speaker 4: of this imagery of the car moving past, moving forward,
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Speaker 4: going about. And also if they are able, because you
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Speaker 4: had mentioned earlier about the cell phone, if the scene
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Speaker 4: is pinging in there and they're capturing this, particularly in
13:36
Speaker 4: the approximately ten am run that you're talking about, if
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Speaker 4: they can zero that in, then you've got two points
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Speaker 4: of connectivity at that moment in time. Where is this
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Speaker 4: scene moving to? Can you see it moving in front
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Speaker 4: of other cameras and also out and about away from
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Speaker 4: this kind of as it's been described as maze in
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Speaker 4: this neighborhood. Is there anything out on the periphery they've
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Speaker 4: been able to piece together local businesses that is going
14:02
Speaker 4: to match this up. I think that that's going to
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Speaker 4: be critical. I'm very interested still with this area that
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Speaker 4: is adjacent to the construction area that was there and
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Speaker 4: this unoccupied home. I want to know has that car
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Speaker 4: ever settled there, has it stopped, has it paused? Because
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Speaker 4: you're looking at a couple of locations where it could
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Speaker 4: have paused. So where is the interest here, you know,
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Speaker 4: going back to this idea of the profile of the individual,
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Speaker 4: where they vested time wise, where they vested location wise,
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Speaker 4: And that's that's going to be a big, big part
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Speaker 4: of this thread, Nancy.
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Speaker 1: Dave mac specifically, we understand the FEDS are interested in
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Speaker 1: vehicles along Via in Trota. Where is Via in Trota?
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Speaker 1: What is it?
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Speaker 2: It's the main residential road entering the neighborhood where Nancy
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Speaker 2: Guthrie lives. It is referred to as amaze like road.
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Speaker 2: It serves as the main residential road into the Catalina
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Speaker 2: Foothills neighborhood. And you mentioned this earlier. It forms part
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Speaker 2: of a maze like residential area that is poorly lit
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Speaker 2: at night that comes into play. You have to know
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Speaker 2: the roads and where you're going at night to be
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Speaker 2: able to function in this area along Via Intrada.
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Speaker 1: So once we have a date, once we have a
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Speaker 1: time ten am, we can go from there. And Scott Eiker,
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Speaker 1: wouldn't it be possible if we're going with a white
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Speaker 1: car ten am J thirty one to try. I'm sure
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Speaker 1: you would call the potus Dulo's case, Jennifer Dulo's Connecticut
15:37
Speaker 1: mom of five body never found the law enforcement there
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Speaker 1: in Connecticut put together an incredible video montage from businesses, homes.
15:49
Speaker 1: Even at one point a public bus opened up and
15:52
Speaker 1: you see the perp driving by tracking his movements. I've
15:56
Speaker 1: got a time, I've got a potential vehicle, I've got
15:59
Speaker 1: a street. Isn't it possible now to look at the cams,
16:03
Speaker 1: look at Wi Fi along the routes and see where
16:07
Speaker 1: the car went? I know it's going to be difficult,
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Speaker 1: but is it possible?
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Speaker 3: It is difficult, and there's a lot of different databases
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Speaker 3: that we can pull from. One is the videos from
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Speaker 3: the area, as you mentioned, the choke points coming from
16:20
Speaker 3: that point. Where would a car have to go from
16:23
Speaker 3: that point to get to other areas? The main avenues,
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Speaker 3: the stoplights, the business cameras, is all important stuff. But
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Speaker 3: when we look at the cellular aspect of it, we
16:34
Speaker 3: can look at Google, we can look at Facebook, we
16:37
Speaker 3: can look at just tower dumps, same stuff. We do
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Speaker 3: another tower dump into that area because it's going to
16:44
Speaker 3: be possibly different towers that are used around Miscuthriy's residents,
16:48
Speaker 3: and we see, all right, is that that those devices
16:53
Speaker 3: in that tower dump also in Nancy Guthrie's area, tower dump.
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Speaker 3: So now we put that same in two important areas.
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Speaker 3: That helps us a lot to do and narrow down
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Speaker 3: the amount of different devices that we have to sort
17:07
Speaker 3: through to figure out which ones were.
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Speaker 1: Important crime stores with Nancy Grace. Also tonight, a vacant
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Speaker 1: home used as a staging area. Dave Matt What.
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Speaker 2: Does that mean, you know, Nancy, It is a home
17:31
Speaker 2: that sits off the backyard of Nancy Guthrie's home. It's vacant,
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Speaker 2: and you mentioned it earlier. The purp walks up to
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Speaker 2: the front door. We don't see a car dropping them off.
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Speaker 2: We don't see a car picking them up in the
17:47
Speaker 2: neighborhood right there. But if they were staging, meaning if
17:51
Speaker 2: the perpetrators were in i that is vacant, they could
17:54
Speaker 2: be in that house for days. They could be watching
17:57
Speaker 2: the comings and goings at Nancy Guthrie's home, and when
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Speaker 2: they decide it's time to go, walk across the backyard area.
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Speaker 2: Now this is at the time we're talking two to
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Speaker 2: two thirty in the morning, when Nancy Guthrie's neighbor facing
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Speaker 2: her backyard, facing Nancy Guthrie's backyard, the dog went crazy
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Speaker 2: and the two video cameras facing the backyard of Nancy
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Speaker 2: Guthrie went silently, could not connect to Wi Fi. The
18:23
Speaker 2: vacant home is near there, so if it's used by
18:27
Speaker 2: the perpetrators as a place to make their plan to stage,
18:31
Speaker 2: well there you go. You've got a clear shot walking
18:34
Speaker 2: into Nancy Guthrie's home and we've got a dog going crazy.
18:39
Speaker 1: This aerial v from our friends at twelve knees and
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Speaker 1: I'm going to ask a control room to play showing
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Speaker 1: the aerial view of the FEDS coming through her side entrance,
18:48
Speaker 1: coming from this same direction, going past the pool and
18:52
Speaker 1: actually taking photos of the gate the pool gate. Remember this,
18:56
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, after Nana's said, oh there's nothing to
19:00
Speaker 1: see here. We see the Feds coming through that side area.
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Speaker 1: They're going through the pool area and they're gonna pause
19:09
Speaker 1: and take photos when they go out the gate. This
19:13
Speaker 1: would be consistent with the coming from a staging area
19:18
Speaker 1: or parked elsewhere, coming through the backyard neighbors lawn, going
19:26
Speaker 1: into Nancy Guffree's property and going past the pool and
19:29
Speaker 1: coming through that gate. This is from our friends at
19:32
Speaker 1: Fox News. But let's see the twelve video again. The
19:37
Speaker 1: aerial video where would the vacant home be there, you
19:43
Speaker 1: see the neighbor's house. Did he come around and go
19:46
Speaker 1: through the pool area and down that side portion of
19:50
Speaker 1: Nancy's home. This is from our friends at twelve News,
19:54
Speaker 1: So to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, let's just go with
19:59
Speaker 1: the theory. Have to pursue every avenue that a vacant
20:03
Speaker 1: home was used as a staging area. What should they
20:06
Speaker 1: be doing right now as far as processing the staging area, Well,
20:11
Speaker 1: I hope.
20:11
Speaker 4: That it's completely locked down and if they've got the
20:15
Speaker 4: right personnel that are out there that could potentially process this.
20:20
Speaker 4: Thinking about anybody that might be in dwelling and just
20:22
Speaker 4: like Date said, just a moment ago where they hanging
20:25
Speaker 4: out there for an extended period of time. And that's
20:30
Speaker 4: key because the longer you hang out in a location
20:33
Speaker 4: relative to say trace evidence as it applies to forensics,
20:39
Speaker 4: the higher the probability is that you're going to leave
20:42
Speaker 4: something behind, just like la Carte's principle. So if you're
20:45
Speaker 4: in that space, whether it be footprints or whatever, the
20:48
Speaker 4: case might be, maybe discarded wrappers, if you're surveilling an area,
20:53
Speaker 4: things that you might not think of that we would
20:55
Speaker 4: go in because we've got all the time in the
20:57
Speaker 4: world as forensics folks to go in there and pick
21:00
Speaker 4: that place apart. My biggest concern, Nancy, is that they
21:05
Speaker 4: haven't gotten to this soon enough, because we've got a
21:08
Speaker 4: lot of time that has elapsed. Has anything degraded in there,
21:11
Speaker 4: has anything been rubbed up against and obliterated? All these
21:16
Speaker 4: sorts of things. So this is a time critical area,
21:19
Speaker 4: and given the proximity, I think that it's significant. I
21:22
Speaker 4: hope that they're processing this accurately, looking for things like fingerprints, footprints,
21:27
Speaker 4: anything that can tie back to perhaps Missus Guthrie's location,
21:32
Speaker 4: maybe even that car that we are talking about. The
21:35
Speaker 4: phone points of Ingress and Egress. You think about that
21:40
Speaker 4: gate back there in the backside. Did they always take
21:44
Speaker 4: care if they were surveilling the area to walk through
21:46
Speaker 4: that gate? Did they touch it? Had they left anything behind?
21:49
Speaker 4: So all of this stuff is still on the table,
21:51
Speaker 4: my friend.
21:52
Speaker 1: This could explain why we don't see a car that night,
21:55
Speaker 1: why the porch guy approached on foot. Is a vacant
21:59
Speaker 1: house behind Guthrie's home? Does it require the purp to
22:02
Speaker 1: come through the yard where the dog barked? Is the
22:05
Speaker 1: vacant home being processed for prints DNA evidence question? Were
22:10
Speaker 1: people squatting there? Did they have a lease? Did they rent?
22:16
Speaker 1: We see the fads walking the trail. Is this why
22:20
Speaker 1: so many cases that I have covered and investigated and
22:25
Speaker 1: prosecuted involved use of a vacant home, Scott, While I've
22:31
Speaker 1: got you, We now know that the cast prints that
22:36
Speaker 1: were attempted outdoors likely yielded nothing, probably because it was
22:41
Speaker 1: a gravel walkway for any number of reasons. But there's
22:45
Speaker 1: still hope of electrostatic lifts. What's that?
22:50
Speaker 6: Okay?
22:50
Speaker 4: So when you think about electrostatic lifts, we all know
22:53
Speaker 4: about magnetism, right, We learned about that in physical science
22:56
Speaker 4: back in junior high school. So negatives attract paused. So
23:00
Speaker 4: what we do with electrostatic lift? You see an example
23:03
Speaker 4: of one here that we did at Jack State. That's
23:06
Speaker 4: a milar sheet. It's kind of like vinyl. You lay
23:09
Speaker 4: it over a suspected area where you have taken on
23:13
Speaker 4: an a blique light. You see how we're lighting that
23:15
Speaker 4: kind of obliquely like that, and we try to raise
23:18
Speaker 4: that print by electrostatic a charge. So you place the
23:22
Speaker 4: milar sheet over it, you add an electrical charge. The
23:27
Speaker 4: charge on the paper on the my lar is actually
23:30
Speaker 4: negative and everything at the ground level is positive. So
23:32
Speaker 4: what happens is this is lifted and captured and we
23:36
Speaker 4: have that for you know, as long as we treat it,
23:39
Speaker 4: you know, with respect the bit of evidence, so that
23:42
Speaker 4: we don't ruin it. We can go back to the
23:45
Speaker 4: lab and we can have a footprint expert that can
23:48
Speaker 4: assess it. And you're going to look for all kinds
23:50
Speaker 4: of little anomalies in there. And here's a thought. Here's
23:53
Speaker 4: a thought as well, back to that vacant house. Okay,
23:57
Speaker 4: are there any footprints over there that they could have
24:00
Speaker 4: have actually assessed relative to electro magnetic lifts that could
24:05
Speaker 4: be tied back to anything that they might find on
24:08
Speaker 4: the floors inside of.
24:09
Speaker 1: Her house if the scene wasn't destroyed by crime scene
24:13
Speaker 1: investigator Scott Iiker. We're also learning that the FEDS are
24:17
Speaker 1: searching for pharmaceutical records similar to meds used by Nancy Guthrie.
24:24
Speaker 1: How do you do that? Clearly they're trying to find
24:27
Speaker 1: someone filling prescriptions or getting meds for Nancy Guthrie. So
24:32
Speaker 1: how do you go about finding that information?
24:36
Speaker 3: Well, you got to first jump the hurdle of privacy
24:40
Speaker 3: regarding medical records. That's going to be a tough one
24:42
Speaker 3: to get past. One of the things that you think
24:45
Speaker 3: about is that if they abducted Nancy and they wanted
24:49
Speaker 3: to keep her alive, did they refill her prescription somehow? Okay,
24:55
Speaker 3: maybe they didn't do that, But can we find other people,
25:00
Speaker 3: newer people that just started the same type of prescriptions
25:05
Speaker 3: that Nancy was on. So, I mean, that's an avenue
25:08
Speaker 3: to go, but I think it's going to be hard.
25:10
Speaker 3: It's not like you can do a tower dunpump prescriptions.
25:13
Speaker 3: You're going to have to find a way to get
25:15
Speaker 3: into the privacy aspect of getting people's medical histories.
25:20
Speaker 1: Well, if there's a way, I guarantee the FEDS will
25:23
Speaker 1: find it. Tonight, we're also learning the FEDS are expanding
25:26
Speaker 1: their questioning to people that don't necessarily live in the neighborhood.
25:30
Speaker 1: They are now questioning landscapers, construction workers, gardeners, you name it.
25:36
Speaker 1: Maybe the pool crew that Nana is allowed to come
25:38
Speaker 1: clean the pool after the kidnapping. Question to you, Dave
25:44
Speaker 1: mac is it true that in the midst of all this,
25:47
Speaker 1: with the FEDS doing the heavy lifting, Nana's is spending
25:50
Speaker 1: quality time at the gym.
25:52
Speaker 2: Nancy, he is under a microscope and it doesn't seem
25:55
Speaker 2: to bother him in the least bit. Just to give
25:57
Speaker 2: you an idea, he has gone to the four out
26:00
Speaker 2: of five days. He's spending ninety plus minutes inside the gym.
26:06
Speaker 2: And by the way, he's being followed by the media,
26:10
Speaker 2: because again, this is a guy that's got to recall
26:12
Speaker 2: out on him right now. He lives in an eight
26:15
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty thousand dollars gaety community. His home is
26:18
Speaker 2: a mini mansion. He's driving a fairly new Corvet convertible
26:23
Speaker 2: and they follow him to the gym.
26:26
Speaker 1: Joining us tonight, former FBI Special Agent, chief of the
26:31
Speaker 1: FBI Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program, author of Sizing People Up,
26:37
Speaker 1: a veteran FBI agent's manual for behavior prediction. He's got
26:42
Speaker 1: a second book, Unbreakable Alliances, a spy recruiter's authoritative guide
26:47
Speaker 1: to cultivating powerful and lasting connections. Robin Drake is joining us,
26:54
Speaker 1: and Robin, you got me at former FBI Special Agent
26:58
Speaker 1: and chief of the FBI counter Intelligence Behavioral Analysis Program.
27:04
Speaker 1: The books are just gravy. Thank you for being with us. Robin,
27:08
Speaker 1: I want you to look at something that's come to
27:11
Speaker 1: our attention, and that is the behavior of the porch
27:14
Speaker 1: guy Robin Drake. He seems extremely casual and not at
27:21
Speaker 1: all in a hurry on what we now know to
27:25
Speaker 1: be January eleven. What do you make of it?
27:30
Speaker 7: Yeah, So, anytime we're doing behavioral analysis, what we really
27:33
Speaker 7: want to do is put ourselves in their shoes to
27:35
Speaker 7: the best of our ability, obviously because we're not broken
27:38
Speaker 7: people like this, but we want to literally think about
27:41
Speaker 7: what they're doing, what they're seeing, and what their motive
27:44
Speaker 7: is for doing these things. What's the goal? And so
27:47
Speaker 7: being so casual says he has reps. A lot of
27:49
Speaker 7: people have said he's done this before. It's not unusual
27:52
Speaker 7: for him because he's so casual about it. But also,
27:55
Speaker 7: what do people do? I mean, all of Ausden listening
27:58
Speaker 7: and tune in can actually think of this. When we
28:00
Speaker 7: show up on someone's doorstep and they have a ring
28:02
Speaker 7: camera or nest cam or something, what do we typically hear.
28:04
Speaker 7: We hear the alarm, we hear the thing going off
28:06
Speaker 7: inside and so and up to eighty percent of home invasions,
28:10
Speaker 7: whether targeting an individual or targeting property inside, they're doing
28:15
Speaker 7: scouting and reconnaissance, testing security systems, testing for things in
28:19
Speaker 7: the area, and also lingering.
28:21
Speaker 1: On the doorstep.
28:22
Speaker 7: A large number of elderly people when they live at
28:25
Speaker 7: home alone and they're trying to get back in the house,
28:27
Speaker 7: they will hide and secrete ways to get in, keys
28:30
Speaker 7: and bushes, keys under things, and so this individual most
28:33
Speaker 7: likely definitely was scouting ahead of time and most likely
28:36
Speaker 7: testing a security system and seeing who responds, how long
28:40
Speaker 7: it takes, and what their reaction will be.
28:42
Speaker 1: Now we're also showing fab one the early morning hours
28:46
Speaker 1: when Nancy was kidnapped January eleven says a lot to me.
28:53
Speaker 1: You mentioned casual, calm, lingering on the doorstep. He's not
29:00
Speaker 1: at all concerned about being caught. He seems to know
29:04
Speaker 1: what he's doing. You stated that at the get go
29:08
Speaker 1: it was surmised he had taken part in this kind
29:12
Speaker 1: of behavior before in general. But this is telling me, Robin,
29:17
Speaker 1: that he has been on her porch before, he has
29:20
Speaker 1: seen her home before. He's not worried. I think of here,
29:25
Speaker 1: here's a great example, Robin Drake, John Binna Ramsey. That's
29:29
Speaker 1: someone everyone can recall. The culprit was not worried at all.
29:36
Speaker 1: About getting caught. The culprit took their time to kick
29:42
Speaker 1: back in the family home and write about a three
29:45
Speaker 1: page ransom note and then go I like it. I'm
29:48
Speaker 1: going to sit right here and write another one, not
29:52
Speaker 1: at all concerned they're going to be caught or apprehended.
29:57
Speaker 1: Why So, this guy's behavior, he's just like standing there
30:03
Speaker 1: looking at the front door. We never see him and
30:07
Speaker 1: on either day run to the street, sneak up. Nothing
30:12
Speaker 1: like that is telling me he's been here and cased
30:17
Speaker 1: her home many times before.
30:20
Speaker 4: Yeah, I totally agree.
30:21
Speaker 7: Either whether it was in daytime because he was part
30:24
Speaker 7: of some work crew or maintenance crew, or even just
30:26
Speaker 7: casually in a neighborhood at another neighbor's house, or whether
30:29
Speaker 7: this was not his first time on her front step
30:32
Speaker 7: testing this location so that casualness. Either that or his
30:36
Speaker 7: brain is completely disengaging, he's completely compartmentalization because you know,
30:40
Speaker 7: you've got to take in all the potentialities. But yeah,
30:42
Speaker 7: I'm with you. I think he's been here before in
30:46
Speaker 7: some capacity, either daylight or nighttime.
30:48
Speaker 1: What is it about his demeanor? I mean, you're the
30:50
Speaker 1: FBI specialist in behavioral analysis, Robin Drake, what is it
30:55
Speaker 1: about his behavior that tells you this ain't his first
31:00
Speaker 1: I'm at the rodeo.
31:01
Speaker 7: Nothing startles him. If you just look at the fluidity
31:04
Speaker 7: of his movement, there's no change in the tempo. There's
31:07
Speaker 7: no change in absolutely anything. And so think about this,
31:11
Speaker 7: Like we just said, if he heard an internal doorbell
31:14
Speaker 7: going off and alarm, a chime or something, you would
31:16
Speaker 7: have seen a pause. You would have seen a startle.
31:18
Speaker 7: If there's someone out in the driveway, if there's something
31:20
Speaker 7: else going on, there would have been a pause. And also,
31:23
Speaker 7: if this was his first time at this door, there'd
31:26
Speaker 7: be apprehension, there'd be pauses, there'd be looking around, there'd
31:29
Speaker 7: be scoping things out. He seemed very fluid in all
31:32
Speaker 7: his motions and everything he was executing, even when bowing
31:36
Speaker 7: down to get a branch, which was like the dumbest
31:39
Speaker 7: looking thing I've ever seen. But he just seemed on mission,
31:42
Speaker 7: very very methodical too. So this is actually planned out.
31:46
Speaker 1: Okay, Robin Drake, here is the leap. Let's follow through
31:53
Speaker 1: your reasoning to its logical conclusion. What can I learned?
32:00
Speaker 1: What can I prove from what you're telling me? Who
32:05
Speaker 1: is he?
32:06
Speaker 7: So he's someone that I believe is at least one
32:08
Speaker 7: degree of separation from Nancy in some capacity of whatsoever.
32:12
Speaker 7: The other thing that I think that law enforcement's doing,
32:14
Speaker 7: based on these observations of his fluidity in this environment,
32:19
Speaker 7: is that go to the other houses that I'm sure
32:21
Speaker 7: they're doing this canvassing other houses, and I would do
32:23
Speaker 7: it within a one to three hundred mile radius of
32:25
Speaker 7: this house of this dwelling, because other ring camps should
32:29
Speaker 7: have picked up on this, because if he's done this before,
32:31
Speaker 7: it's going to be on someone else's ring cam, nestcam,
32:34
Speaker 7: or something like that. People need to check. When you
32:37
Speaker 7: wake up in the morning, you should be checking those
32:38
Speaker 7: things to see what happened the night before, because those
32:41
Speaker 7: are going to be the other leads. And that's how
32:42
Speaker 7: they're piecing these data points together behind the scenes that
32:45
Speaker 7: we're not seeing right now. And again, going and going,
32:48
Speaker 7: he is definitely targeting something or someone in that house.
32:52
Speaker 7: It is targeted. Well, what that is is what we
32:55
Speaker 7: don't know. I'm just analyzing the sheriffs for all the
32:58
Speaker 7: controversies going around. He's been saying lot of things and
33:00
Speaker 7: the last thing he says that people need to be
33:02
Speaker 7: on the lookout and aware, believe it or not. You
33:04
Speaker 7: mentioned Ramsey as well as you know, if you want
33:08
Speaker 7: to even look at Elizabeth Smart. When the sheriffs are
33:10
Speaker 7: saying people need to be on the lookout, they were
33:12
Speaker 7: actually using different language than he was when being on
33:15
Speaker 7: the look at for things. He was actually using language
33:17
Speaker 7: of a targeted burglary, typically not a home, not a
33:20
Speaker 7: home invasion for abduction. So it's just interesting. Again, he
33:23
Speaker 7: could be way off on the things he's saying, as
33:25
Speaker 7: he has been sometimes, but it's an interesting tell.
33:28
Speaker 1: Robin Drake, you are mentioning that this suggests the purp
33:32
Speaker 1: has broken in or home invaded before. What I'm asking
33:37
Speaker 1: you now, a more refined question is what does his
33:42
Speaker 1: behavior tell you as it relates to Nancy Guthrie, not
33:47
Speaker 1: other instances, maybe three hundred miles away. But is this
33:52
Speaker 1: a neighbor, is this a day laborer? Is it somebody
33:55
Speaker 1: off that construction crew? They're not in a hurry. Does
33:59
Speaker 1: this suggest to you it's possible that vacant home was
34:04
Speaker 1: used as a staging area. He doesn't need a car
34:07
Speaker 1: parked out in front, he doesn't need to jump in
34:10
Speaker 1: with the wingman the getaway driver, because he's gonna walk
34:15
Speaker 1: through that backyard. We don't see him walking up the front,
34:19
Speaker 1: So where did he come from? Did he walk through
34:22
Speaker 1: that backyard or backstore neighbor where the dog went crazy
34:26
Speaker 1: around two am? Where is the vacant home? Is that
34:30
Speaker 1: why he's not in a hurry. He doesn't have to
34:33
Speaker 1: run into a waiting car. He can go right across
34:36
Speaker 1: the street and through the backyard. What do you make
34:39
Speaker 1: of that?
34:40
Speaker 7: Yeah, I definitely think that's a possibility, and that new
34:43
Speaker 7: evidence and ideas being out there is definitely something they
34:46
Speaker 7: must look at. I know it's challenging that environment because
34:49
Speaker 7: the hard pack ground and the nature of the desert,
34:52
Speaker 7: and I definitely, as we've been saying, there's some sort
34:55
Speaker 7: of connection, a personal maybe not personal with Nancy yourself,
34:58
Speaker 7: but personal with the dwell in itself that he's been
35:01
Speaker 7: there without having that need to flee, and because there's
35:05
Speaker 7: no panic here, and that's what we're not seeing. We're
35:06
Speaker 7: not seeing any sort of panic or rushed movement. And
35:10
Speaker 7: it's just very telling.
35:18
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie
35:24
Speaker 1: missing this As we learn that construction site dumps are
35:30
Speaker 1: being searched for what we also learn more about the
35:36
Speaker 1: process that nanos in the FBI is employing to get
35:41
Speaker 1: a DNA match. Is it possible? Also tonight, careful analysis
35:47
Speaker 1: of blood on Nancy Guthrie's porch is telling us a
35:51
Speaker 1: very different story. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is
35:56
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.
36:09
Speaker 1: P MC County Sheriffs is asking now for footage of
36:14
Speaker 1: vehicles in the neighborhood, a white vehicle seen in the
36:19
Speaker 1: maze of streets surrounding Nancy's.
36:22
Speaker 4: Home, because if they can tie that back to a
36:25
Speaker 4: suspect here, this is going to be critical moving forward
36:28
Speaker 4: with the case, specifically.
36:30
Speaker 8: To whoever has her or knows where she is. But
36:41
Speaker 8: it's never too late, and you're not lost or alone,
36:53
Speaker 8: and it is never too late to do the right thing.
36:58
Speaker 8: And we are here. We believe, and we believe in
37:06
Speaker 8: the essential goodness of every human being.
37:11
Speaker 1: Straight out to Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter, we
37:16
Speaker 1: know that the fans are now trying to question work
37:19
Speaker 1: crews on a construction site, one in particular, and maybe
37:23
Speaker 1: more in Nancy Guthrie's neighborhood. We now know that dump
37:28
Speaker 1: sites used by construction crews are being searched. What do
37:34
Speaker 1: you know? What can you tell me?
37:36
Speaker 2: We know that the investigation has really gotten into these
37:40
Speaker 2: construction sites Nancy to identify all personnel, including daily contractors
37:46
Speaker 2: who have come in. They're trying to identify not just people,
37:49
Speaker 2: but you wouldn't mentioned the trash. They're trying to determine
37:53
Speaker 2: where trash is being taken. Where are the dump sites
37:56
Speaker 2: for these individual homes that are being under construction. Is
38:00
Speaker 2: there one place in particular that it's being taken or
38:04
Speaker 2: are there multiple? They're identifying places that they can look
38:08
Speaker 2: into dump sites from the construction sites.
38:11
Speaker 1: Okay, that is a very very difficult task. I have
38:16
Speaker 1: worked on dump site searches. You have to break it
38:20
Speaker 1: down into grid searches. It's really really hard to do
38:25
Speaker 1: with me. Professor Forensic Sjacksonville State University, Joseph Scott Morgan,
38:29
Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star
38:32
Speaker 1: of a hit podcast Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan, but
38:36
Speaker 1: more important, death investigator with over ten thousand death inquiries
38:41
Speaker 1: under his belt. A dump site grid search. I'm not
38:48
Speaker 1: saying we're looking for Nancy Guthrie's body that's not what
38:51
Speaker 1: I'm saying. I think they're looking for something else. How
38:55
Speaker 1: do you go about a grid search if they are
38:58
Speaker 1: looking at construction crew sites?
39:01
Speaker 4: Okay, understand this when you're talking about searching any kind
39:06
Speaker 4: of landfill, all right, And it all works on the
39:09
Speaker 4: same principle, whether it's household debris or whether it is construction.
39:14
Speaker 4: People just don't go in there and randomly dump stuff.
39:16
Speaker 4: They do have the thing broken up into grids and Nancy,
39:20
Speaker 4: here's something else. And this is always a clue that
39:23
Speaker 4: we look for when we're searching these kinds of locations.
39:26
Speaker 4: Did you know that those grids have specific dates like
39:29
Speaker 4: when these things would have been picked up where they
39:31
Speaker 4: were deposited, Because you cannot continue to deposit things in
39:35
Speaker 4: the same location over and over again. It has to
39:38
Speaker 4: be it has to be organized in order to facilitate this.
39:42
Speaker 4: The one difficult part that I have always found in
39:45
Speaker 4: any of these things I've ever searched is that you
39:48
Speaker 4: have equipment that runs over over the stuff to kind
39:53
Speaker 4: of pack it down, and that creates an absolute nightmare
39:56
Speaker 4: for investigators when they go out there to begin to search.
40:00
Speaker 1: Well, there's all sorts of issues with a construction site search.
40:05
Speaker 1: I'm curious about what they could be looking for. When
40:10
Speaker 1: you hear a search of a dump or a landfill,
40:13
Speaker 1: you immediately think they're looking for a body. That is
40:16
Speaker 1: not necessarily true. Joe's God, no it's not.
40:20
Speaker 4: And you know, listen, if somebody has been involved in
40:23
Speaker 4: some kind of nefarious activity and they have one of
40:26
Speaker 4: these big dumpsters, all right that you see at construction sites,
40:29
Speaker 4: and they're putting things in there specifically, and look, it
40:32
Speaker 4: could be biological material, something organic that's going to break down.
40:36
Speaker 4: That's one of the problems that you run into with
40:38
Speaker 4: these sites is because this is an aerobic environment, which
40:42
Speaker 4: means it's oxygenated, and that means that anything that's in
40:46
Speaker 4: there that is organic breaks down very very quickly, and
40:50
Speaker 4: it compromises evidence. But if there's other things, say, for instance,
40:54
Speaker 4: if there's any kind of tools, any bits of wood
40:58
Speaker 4: that may have been associated with something that was involved
41:00
Speaker 4: in a crime, that's going to be there as way
41:03
Speaker 4: there as well. And here's one of the problems that
41:05
Speaker 4: you run into. It's something called co mingling. So you
41:09
Speaker 4: get evidence that's kind of tied up together, and it
41:12
Speaker 4: can come from other sites because on the day that
41:16
Speaker 4: a specific grid has stuff dumped from location A and
41:20
Speaker 4: B and C. You're confined to that spot, but that
41:23
Speaker 4: stuff gets co mingled, mashed down and kind of turned around.
41:28
Speaker 1: Joining us in Ullstar Panel in addition to Joseph Scott
41:31
Speaker 1: Morgan joining US from Jacksonville State University. Brian Fitzgibbons is
41:35
Speaker 1: with us Director Operations USPA Nationwide Security, leading a team
41:39
Speaker 1: of experts to find missing people around the world. Former
41:44
Speaker 1: Marine Iraqi Warvette now at USPA Nationwide Security. The search
41:49
Speaker 1: of landfills. It's horrible, very often the searchers have to
41:54
Speaker 1: use hazmat outfits. They can be out there in the sun, sweating, sweltering,
41:59
Speaker 1: and those as matt outfits. What could they be searching for?
42:02
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons Brian I say I don't
42:05
Speaker 1: think it's a search for her body is because we've
42:10
Speaker 1: heard nothing about the use of cadaver dogs.
42:12
Speaker 6: Yes, spot on.
42:13
Speaker 5: I believe here that they'd be searching for pieces of
42:17
Speaker 5: any pieces of physical evidence that could have been removed
42:20
Speaker 5: from the scene. And what's important to remember about these
42:23
Speaker 5: landfill searches is that authorities will have a very good
42:27
Speaker 5: idea from the landfill on where this trash was deposited
42:34
Speaker 5: based on a specific timeline. So as they're going around
42:37
Speaker 5: looking at these contractor bins, they're going to have to
42:42
Speaker 5: research that differently than residential service. So they're going to find,
42:47
Speaker 5: you know, what contractors had large trash receptacles in the area,
42:53
Speaker 5: what the schedule was for pickup where they were bringing.
42:56
Speaker 6: Them, and that could vary.
42:58
Speaker 5: It may not be the same location the same transfer
43:02
Speaker 5: centers that the residential trash.
43:05
Speaker 6: Would be going.
43:06
Speaker 1: Dave mac Another theory emerging and I just want to
43:11
Speaker 1: bat this down immediately, that Nancy Guthrie is missing because
43:17
Speaker 1: Savannah Guthrie had a stalker. Okay, so what is the
43:24
Speaker 1: report on Savannah Guthrie's stalker? Did she have a stalker?
43:28
Speaker 1: What do we know?
43:30
Speaker 2: No, there is no confirmed idea that Savannah Guthrie has
43:33
Speaker 2: or had a stalker. This is another part of the
43:39
Speaker 2: armchair detectives that are prevalent when a main story like
43:43
Speaker 2: this goes out and people try to find a working
43:46
Speaker 2: idea of how it could be solved and what could
43:49
Speaker 2: have been the motive. But no, this is not something
43:52
Speaker 2: that has been brought about by legitimate investigation.
43:56
Speaker 1: Okay, the question is being banded about out. Could Nancy
44:01
Speaker 1: Guthrie have been targeted by a Savannah Guthrie stalker? I
44:07
Speaker 1: find that extremely fantastical. I want to go out to
44:11
Speaker 1: Scott Iiker, founding member of the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team.
44:17
Speaker 1: He was in robbery homicide over a decade in Norfolk, Virginia, PD.
44:22
Speaker 1: He is now with Precision Cellular Analysis. Scott fantastical. No again,
44:30
Speaker 1: my favorite phrase sounds like a fifth grade girl's novel.
44:34
Speaker 1: When you have a stalker, they go after you. They
44:37
Speaker 1: don't find your eighty four year old grandma in the
44:40
Speaker 1: middle of the desert and cart her away in the
44:43
Speaker 1: middle of the night. That's not how stalkers operate. And
44:49
Speaker 1: in my mind, throwing out theories like this and calling
44:52
Speaker 1: them into the nine one one tip line is wasting
44:57
Speaker 1: valuable time.
45:00
Speaker 6: I agree that's wasting time to an extent.
45:03
Speaker 3: You know, as we know stalker's they want to be
45:06
Speaker 3: seen by the person they're stalking, right, They want the
45:08
Speaker 3: attention by that person.
45:11
Speaker 6: So in that.
45:13
Speaker 3: Vein there might be an indication that hey, if I
45:16
Speaker 3: mess with the family, I'll get the attention. But you
45:19
Speaker 3: hardly ever see that happening. It's usually against the primary victim.
45:24
Speaker 3: You know in this case, if she had a stalker,
45:26
Speaker 3: it would be Savannah.
45:28
Speaker 6: If if we.
45:31
Speaker 3: Had information, concrete information about a stalker, I'm sure we
45:35
Speaker 3: would have heard about it by now.
45:43
Speaker 1: The idea that Savannah had a stalker that nobody knows
45:47
Speaker 1: about and they carried through their twisted ideas and then
45:53
Speaker 1: executed them upon her mother. Okay, Karen Stark joining us,
45:58
Speaker 1: you know her well, forensic psycho, just renown TV radio
46:01
Speaker 1: trauma expert at Karenstalk dot com. That's Karen with the Sea.
46:06
Speaker 1: You and I have had to deal with a lot
46:08
Speaker 1: of stalkers with all of your patients, with cases that
46:13
Speaker 1: I prosecuted with my own stalkers. This is not how
46:17
Speaker 1: they operate, Karen Stark. Definitely not Nancy.
46:20
Speaker 9: And it just doesn't make sense to me that there
46:22
Speaker 9: would actually be a stalker who's after Savannah and somehow
46:28
Speaker 9: they wind up with Nancy. And there have been so
46:31
Speaker 9: many theories that have been thrown out that to me,
46:34
Speaker 9: this just looks like one more. Stalkers do not behave
46:37
Speaker 9: like this. They follow the person that they're interested in,
46:42
Speaker 9: and it's endless and difficult to catch them actually doing it.
46:47
Speaker 9: But this is not that that kind of a case.
46:51
Speaker 9: This is her mother. I really believe that whatever this
46:55
Speaker 9: was about, it's about Nancy got Thrie, not Savannah.
47:00
Speaker 1: Happening in the search for Nancy Guthrie as construction site
47:05
Speaker 1: dumps are being reviewed, the stalker theory emerging. In addition
47:12
Speaker 1: to all of that, A careful analysis of Nancy Guthrie's porch,
47:19
Speaker 1: when you pull back and look at it, is very revealing.
47:23
Speaker 1: Take a look at this, Joe Scott Morgan. The video
47:26
Speaker 1: you're seeing now from our friends at Fox News gives
47:30
Speaker 1: us a better look than just a few drops. At
47:33
Speaker 1: the very beginning. You're seeing right now why a cast
47:38
Speaker 1: mold was not possible with the walkway. But we're seeing
47:43
Speaker 1: a longer stretch more information about the blood trail. What
47:50
Speaker 1: do you see, Joe Scott Morgan.
47:52
Speaker 4: Well, I see what I would interpret is passive passive
47:56
Speaker 4: blood deposition. And what that means is we're talking about
47:59
Speaker 4: gravitation blood drop where it falls to the earth. You
48:02
Speaker 4: don't have any projected blood. Okay, So with projected blood,
48:07
Speaker 4: you'll see these little tails that come off of the
48:10
Speaker 4: actual blood droplet itself as it's flying through the air,
48:14
Speaker 4: and it gives you an idea of direction, Nancy, this
48:16
Speaker 4: is something. These blood droplets that you're seeing here are
48:19
Speaker 4: something that probably have fallen from a reasonable height, maybe
48:25
Speaker 4: in the three foot range, and they're dropping straight down
48:28
Speaker 4: and impacting the ground. Do you see this area right
48:32
Speaker 4: here that we're looking at right now with this walkway,
48:35
Speaker 4: those blood droplets appear very uneven. Those can be easily misinterpreted. Well,
48:41
Speaker 4: the reason they're uneven is because that's not a smooth surface.
48:44
Speaker 4: But you get up onto the stoop there and you've
48:47
Speaker 4: got this area where you have this kind of ceramic
48:50
Speaker 4: tile where it's a very kind of even surface. There's
48:54
Speaker 4: a lot to be interpreted here. So we know that
48:57
Speaker 4: that's her blood. They've commented on that. So what would
49:01
Speaker 4: have to happen is she must be moving all right,
49:05
Speaker 4: or her body her person is being moved. Let me
49:07
Speaker 4: rephrase that at at least a three foot height, and
49:10
Speaker 4: this blood is free flowing through the air. That's what
49:14
Speaker 4: we call gravitational drop, and it's deposited right there. This
49:18
Speaker 4: is not like when we think about classic blood spatter.
49:21
Speaker 4: You know, you and I have talked extensively about things
49:24
Speaker 4: like cast off and all these things. That's dynamic. That's
49:26
Speaker 4: not what you're seeing here. This is not something that
49:29
Speaker 4: has tremendous velocity behind it. This is something that is
49:33
Speaker 4: issuing forth from an injury. I still hold based upon
49:38
Speaker 4: some of those blood droplets that I saw, particularly adjacent
49:42
Speaker 4: to the doorway.
49:43
Speaker 1: Oh, hold on, hold on, hold on, Joe Scott. Guys,
49:46
Speaker 1: the video you were seeing was from Fox News. But
49:48
Speaker 1: I want to put up the steel so our viewers
49:51
Speaker 1: can see what Joe Scott is talking about, because as
49:56
Speaker 1: you look at it, what he's saying makes a lot
49:58
Speaker 1: of sense. The video doesn't really show it as well
50:01
Speaker 1: as the still photo of that blood.
50:04
Speaker 4: So as you see it right here, it's depositing in
50:08
Speaker 4: kind of a linear fashion here, and you can't really
50:12
Speaker 4: interpret which way movement is going. Are they moving toward
50:16
Speaker 4: the door away from the door. All we know is
50:18
Speaker 4: that there's blood deposition. Now, you can look at the
50:21
Speaker 4: margins of it to say, okay, it never extended beyond
50:24
Speaker 4: about two or three feet in width, so you can
50:27
Speaker 4: kind of superimpose a path over that if you will.
50:30
Speaker 4: But directionality is very hard to determine with this because
50:34
Speaker 4: you don't have any indication of flight of the blood.
50:37
Speaker 4: You know, that it's dropping straight down. Okay, and these
50:41
Speaker 4: don't really vary in height, Nancy. So the higher the blood,
50:45
Speaker 4: the greater the deposition of blood or when that spherical
50:48
Speaker 4: because blood people don't know this. Blood actually falls through
50:51
Speaker 4: the air in a perfect sphere. Many people don't understand that,
50:55
Speaker 4: and as it strikes that dynamicism of it kind of
50:58
Speaker 4: spreads it out. Well, these are not spread like greatly.
51:01
Speaker 4: Like if you're talking about blood dropping from I don't know,
51:04
Speaker 4: a height of like ten feet, the droplets are going
51:07
Speaker 4: to look different than that. That's why I'm saying this
51:10
Speaker 4: is within about a three foot range, maybe four feet.
51:12
Speaker 4: It's dropping straight down. So what could happen? Is she
51:15
Speaker 4: being carried at this point in time? And a lot
51:18
Speaker 4: of people have talked about what she wrapped in anything.
51:21
Speaker 4: I think that she's bleeding rather significantly here. But if
51:26
Speaker 4: she was wrapped in anything.
51:27
Speaker 1: New hold on, hold on, you're saying she's bleeding significantly.
51:30
Speaker 1: And just recently another forensic scientist has thrown out the
51:34
Speaker 1: theory that she was quote it doesn't really sound scientific,
51:39
Speaker 1: but I get what the expert is saying, was quote
51:42
Speaker 1: bleeding pretty badly. Yeah, but earlier you had told me.
51:48
Speaker 1: You thought this looked as if it were a nose
51:51
Speaker 1: bleed and there's a little bit of aspiration on it
51:54
Speaker 1: from the nose or the mouth.
51:55
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah.
51:56
Speaker 4: And when you see the tiny little droplets contained in there,
51:59
Speaker 4: there's one curl cluster shot that they have there, these
52:04
Speaker 4: tiny little droplets that looks like called expiated blood because
52:08
Speaker 4: you're expiating it, you know, think Travis Alexander. Okay, so
52:12
Speaker 4: that's expiated blood. You don't see that in any of
52:15
Speaker 4: these other droplets. That deposition that's like where we're looking at,
52:19
Speaker 4: like the one o'clock position in that that's almost like
52:21
Speaker 4: a sneeze or a cough or something, and then it's
52:24
Speaker 4: moving away.
52:25
Speaker 6: Nancy.
52:25
Speaker 4: Do you see those little white areas in the larger droplet, Yeah?
52:29
Speaker 1: I did.
52:29
Speaker 4: That implies to me, Nancy, that this is a rated blood.
52:34
Speaker 4: In other words, it's coming from the naso fairnecks area. Okay.
52:37
Speaker 4: So if you've got some kind of trauma to your nose,
52:40
Speaker 4: your mouth, that sort of thing, it's it's got air
52:43
Speaker 4: in it. It's just it's not like cutting over it
52:46
Speaker 4: like a mist Yeah, it.
52:49
Speaker 1: Kind of Okay. Hey, I want you to look at
52:51
Speaker 1: something else, and I want ker and Karen Stark, Bryfhus Gibbons.
52:55
Speaker 1: Everybody look at this. We've also got Tammy Ballard, DN expert.
52:59
Speaker 1: Can I see that photo you were just showing you
53:02
Speaker 1: see the disturbance of the gravel on top of the blood?
53:09
Speaker 1: Scott Iker, let me go back to you, formerly with
53:12
Speaker 1: the FBI, now a precision cellular analysis. I recalled distinctly
53:17
Speaker 1: a case I prosecuted and investigated at the special behest
53:21
Speaker 1: of the elected district Attorney. And I was very worried
53:26
Speaker 1: because it was originally deemed a suicide and my boss
53:33
Speaker 1: wanted me to make sure it wasn't a homicide. Well,
53:38
Speaker 1: long story short, cher the victim was found naked. A
53:44
Speaker 1: female was found naked in her bed. Number one statistics
53:49
Speaker 1: say that doesn't happen that a female commits while naked.
53:55
Speaker 1: Why don't know. I just know that it's true. She's
53:58
Speaker 1: lying in bed right and head on pillow takes the gun. Bam.
54:03
Speaker 1: That's the working theory. But with a blood expert like
54:09
Speaker 1: Joe scott Man, who was awesome too, we put the
54:12
Speaker 1: sheets up with light behind it, and we found blood
54:16
Speaker 1: spatter under her pillow, which means her a lying there
54:23
Speaker 1: like that and going bam could never have happened, right,
54:28
Speaker 1: So it's not rocket science. You just have to know
54:30
Speaker 1: what you're looking for. And this is telling me something
54:33
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what. Let's see the picture again, Icher
54:36
Speaker 1: that the rocks in the gravel are distributed on top
54:40
Speaker 1: of the blood. What does that mean? Are they helping
54:44
Speaker 1: her out? Do they have their hands under her armpits
54:48
Speaker 1: and they're you know, hitting the gravel as they're walking
54:51
Speaker 1: and she's already come out, she's bleeding, and the gravel
54:54
Speaker 1: gets on top of the blood as they're futzing around
54:57
Speaker 1: trying to hold her up. What do you read into it? Iker?
55:01
Speaker 3: I agree with just Scott Morgan. This is definitely a
55:06
Speaker 3: pool of blood that looks like it was spit out
55:09
Speaker 3: or you know, sneezed out. What I also see is
55:13
Speaker 3: not only some of the rocks, is parts of that
55:15
Speaker 3: bush or the branch that is still at the front
55:18
Speaker 3: of the door there, and that's stuck in some of
55:22
Speaker 3: the blood droplets there. So you know, we know that
55:27
Speaker 3: all kind of occurred around the same time he goes
55:29
Speaker 3: to the front door, he gets the branch. How how
55:34
Speaker 3: he got her out through that security door, we don't know,
55:38
Speaker 3: but it appears to me that that's happening all at
55:41
Speaker 3: the same time. That's why some of that branch is
55:44
Speaker 3: stuck into the blood area.
55:46
Speaker 1: Okay, hold on just a moment. We're looking at the
55:49
Speaker 1: gravel and that's the security door. We're going to talk
55:52
Speaker 1: about in just a few moments. Guys. But that said, Scott,
55:55
Speaker 1: what do you make about the gravel being on top
55:57
Speaker 1: of the blood.
55:59
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've had my own opinions about this. For me,
56:04
Speaker 4: part of it goes to lack of security at the scene.
56:08
Speaker 4: You've got everybody in their brother walking up to this door,
56:11
Speaker 4: and so anytime you do that, that's why we take
56:14
Speaker 4: great care at crime scenes, Nancy, because you don't know
56:17
Speaker 4: what you're going to be kicking about and not taking
56:20
Speaker 4: your time. You're talking about people showing up at the door.
56:23
Speaker 4: Of course, this is keep in mind thanks to Fox
56:26
Speaker 4: for providing this. However, this is not a crime scene
56:29
Speaker 4: image we're looking at. This is media personnel that have
56:32
Speaker 4: generated this and this should not be happening. Somebody had
56:35
Speaker 4: access to it.
56:36
Speaker 1: Oh, I am so angry right now. I'm so angry.
56:40
Speaker 1: Ryan Fitzgibbons, you and I have gone over and over
56:43
Speaker 1: and over what Joe Scott is saying the scene was
56:47
Speaker 1: not secured. Pizza delivery guys were going up there. Journalists, journalists,
56:54
Speaker 1: we're going up there. So now, if the gravel on
56:59
Speaker 1: top of the blow did mean something, we can never
57:04
Speaker 1: prove it now. It could have meant all sorts of things.
57:09
Speaker 1: It could have told us how she was maneuvered out,
57:13
Speaker 1: how she may have been falling backwards, back and forth
57:18
Speaker 1: and getting over in that gravel, or the purp had
57:22
Speaker 1: kicked it over in his effort to carry her or
57:26
Speaker 1: get her out of the home. But we can't prove
57:30
Speaker 1: anything now because the scene was destroyed because Nano's released it.
57:35
Speaker 1: He released the scene.
57:38
Speaker 5: Yeah, there was a span of I believe it was
57:41
Speaker 5: twenty four to forty eight hours where that scene was
57:44
Speaker 5: not held initially released. You had door dash drivers walking
57:51
Speaker 5: up to the front, journalists and you'll even notice Nancy
57:55
Speaker 5: in that photo. The foliage that the porch inspect used
58:01
Speaker 5: is still lying on the ground. That wasn't even collected
58:05
Speaker 5: initially as evidence. It's still lying there on the ground.
58:09
Speaker 5: So you know what EVIDENTI evidentiary value in court are
58:15
Speaker 5: those rocks?
58:17
Speaker 1: I don't know, well done if it's brought up by
58:20
Speaker 1: the state. The defense can shoot it down because the
58:23
Speaker 1: scene was not kept secure. There's no chain of custody,
58:27
Speaker 1: so to speak, so it could have had those rocks
58:30
Speaker 1: could have gotten there in any way. If they ever
58:32
Speaker 1: did prove anything, it won't be worth anything in court
58:36
Speaker 1: because it will be attacked on. Cross guys joining me
58:39
Speaker 1: right now. Tammy Ballard, DNA crime scene consultant, crime scene
58:43
Speaker 1: investigation reconstructionist, former DNA criminalist for the San Diego Police
58:49
Speaker 1: Department Crime Lab. Tammy, thank you for being with us.
58:54
Speaker 1: I'd like to understand, regardless of what Nanos is saying
58:58
Speaker 1: about how analysis could take up to a year not true.
59:03
Speaker 1: I'd like to understand what you believe is happening right
59:07
Speaker 1: now with the stranger DNA that was absolutely found in
59:12
Speaker 1: the home. We do know it did not match up
59:15
Speaker 1: to missus Guthrie, her family, or any of the workers
59:19
Speaker 1: in the home. Let's just go with genetic genealogy is
59:24
Speaker 1: being conducted right now. What's happening.
59:29
Speaker 10: They are dealing with mixtures again. The goal is to
59:32
Speaker 10: find a DNA sample that is going to be suitable
59:36
Speaker 10: to do genealogy. That's your first hurdle. So the limitations
59:41
Speaker 10: with forensic genealogy happen to be related mostly on the
59:45
Speaker 10: front end with this type of scenario as far as
59:50
Speaker 10: mixtures go. So if they have a complex mixture three
59:54
Speaker 10: four contributors, that's going to be something that they have
59:57
Speaker 10: to overcome with genealogy, which is definitely a limitation. Let's
1:00:02
Speaker 10: assume they develop a profile suitable for genealogy. Next you've
1:00:06
Speaker 10: got to figure out starting the tree building. You've got
1:00:10
Speaker 10: to start getting the sample into databases. You're only as
1:00:13
Speaker 10: good as who's in your database, how many people are
1:00:16
Speaker 10: in your database, and working from there, then you have
1:00:20
Speaker 10: the populations. If you have a Hispanic population, a Hispanic
1:00:25
Speaker 10: genealogy search that you're going to have to do, maybe
1:00:29
Speaker 10: that's going to put in some additional hurdles into your search.
1:00:33
Speaker 10: So you know that I always highlight the successes of
1:00:37
Speaker 10: the cases like the Rachel Marin case, you know, sad
1:00:41
Speaker 10: tragic murder case where her perpetrator was from El Salvador.
1:00:48
Speaker 10: That's a very difficult search for genealogy, but that happened
1:00:52
Speaker 10: in record time because it was a great group of
1:00:56
Speaker 10: genealogists that we're able to determine who this individual was.
1:01:00
Speaker 10: So that's the hope for this case is you get
1:01:03
Speaker 10: a good, solid profile and you're able to get that
1:01:06
Speaker 10: into the databases.
1:01:07
Speaker 1: You're building your.
1:01:08
Speaker 10: Trees, and you've got a great team of genealogists assisting.
1:01:15
Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here, please join us on Crime
1:01:18
Speaker 1: Stories and stream it first on Fox One. When breaking
1:01:22
Speaker 1: crime news develops, we investigate it and bring it to
1:01:25
Speaker 1: you bombshell updates, answers to unanswered questions from cases making
1:01:31
Speaker 1: the headlines, and cases you may never have heard of
1:01:36
Speaker 1: until Crime Stories. We go inside investigations with exclusive interviews
1:01:41
Speaker 1: crime victims, families seeking justice, investigators, experts, and sources from
1:01:47
Speaker 1: within the case itself. Stay on top of the nation's
1:01:51
Speaker 1: biggest trials with us including Gavel to Gavel coverage with
1:01:56
Speaker 1: real time analysis. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace stream it
1:02:01
Speaker 1: first on Fox One. I hope to see you there
1:02:04
Speaker 1: and thank you friend. Right now, the blood is being
1:02:10
Speaker 1: subjected to genetic genealogy testing. We believe it's a blood
1:02:15
Speaker 1: DNA sample out of the home. How long will it
1:02:18
Speaker 1: take will it work? That we don't know, but the
1:02:23
Speaker 1: cutting edge technology of genetic genealogy is ongoing. Was the
1:02:29
Speaker 1: ransom ever paid?
1:02:32
Speaker 11: Listen Harvey Levin, we received an alleged ransom note that
1:02:37
Speaker 11: we forwarded on to the authorities, to the sheriff's department.
1:02:42
Speaker 11: The FBI called us a few hours later, wanted to
1:02:45
Speaker 11: had a bunch of questions about that note. There are deadlines,
1:02:50
Speaker 11: I say plural deadlines in this letter, and one is
1:02:56
Speaker 11: looming right when the family is reaching out to say
1:02:59
Speaker 11: we're ready to talk. This letter suggests no talk.
1:03:06
Speaker 7: That right.
1:03:08
Speaker 6: That was made clear right at the beginning.
1:03:10
Speaker 8: We received your message and we understand. We beg you
1:03:16
Speaker 8: now to return our mother to us so that we
1:03:19
Speaker 8: can celebrate with her. This is the only way we
1:03:22
Speaker 8: will have peace. This is very valuable to us, and
1:03:27
Speaker 8: we will pay.
1:03:29
Speaker 1: Many people question was the ransom ever paid and if not, why,
1:03:36
Speaker 1: to a special guest joining us, Scott Iiker as well
1:03:41
Speaker 1: as Brian fitz Gibbons. Let me first start with you, Fitz.
1:03:45
Speaker 1: You go around the world with your team trying to
1:03:48
Speaker 1: find missing people. Oh, by the way, that video is
1:03:51
Speaker 1: from our friend Harvey Levin at TMZ. We heard Savannah
1:03:54
Speaker 1: stating over and over, we're listening, we're here. We will pay.
1:04:01
Speaker 1: I don't believe a ransom was ever paid. See I
1:04:03
Speaker 1: would have rushed in immediately and paid the ransom, and
1:04:08
Speaker 1: as it turned out, I highly doubt that that ransom
1:04:12
Speaker 1: note was legit.
1:04:13
Speaker 5: Fence, I agree it was missing two essential things, proprietary
1:04:19
Speaker 5: information and proof of life. Those are two things that
1:04:23
Speaker 5: in a typical kidnap and ransom case will immediately be delivered.
1:04:28
Speaker 5: The second thing is it wasn't delivered to the family, right.
1:04:32
Speaker 5: This went to a media outlet, so of course the
1:04:35
Speaker 5: family and law enforcement had to take this very seriously
1:04:38
Speaker 5: at the time. But I think as we sit here,
1:04:42
Speaker 5: you know, on day forty eight, it's pretty clear that
1:04:45
Speaker 5: these were not authentic.
1:04:48
Speaker 1: Well, there was another issue to you, Scott Eiker. Well,
1:04:51
Speaker 1: I agree with what you said, Fitz, but a there
1:04:54
Speaker 1: was never proof of life ever presented, be they never
1:05:01
Speaker 1: contacted the family directly, as Fitz just told you. But
1:05:06
Speaker 1: Scott Iiker, another issue I have is the delay, because
1:05:11
Speaker 1: obviously this is not a this is not a burglary,
1:05:13
Speaker 1: this is not a robbery. None of that happened. When
1:05:17
Speaker 1: you go in to commit a burglary, you don't go, oh,
1:05:19
Speaker 1: my stars, are somebody home. I think I'll take her
1:05:22
Speaker 1: with me. That No, that's not how it works. So
1:05:27
Speaker 1: obviously one of the only choices left is ransom. But
1:05:33
Speaker 1: typically ransom requests happened immediately so the victim's family can
1:05:39
Speaker 1: get the money together and start the negotiation. There was
1:05:43
Speaker 1: never a negotiation. All there was was a bitcoin manner
1:05:48
Speaker 1: of payment, and without any proof of life, and with
1:05:53
Speaker 1: the delay in submitting the ransom, I just don't believe
1:05:58
Speaker 1: it was valid.
1:06:00
Speaker 6: I totally agree.
1:06:01
Speaker 3: And that last point you made that it needs to
1:06:03
Speaker 3: be immediate after the kidnapping and directly to the family
1:06:07
Speaker 3: I think are some of the most important parts of it.
1:06:10
Speaker 6: I mean proof of life.
1:06:11
Speaker 3: That's obviously something that Savannah initially wanted, but if you
1:06:15
Speaker 3: remember in some of the later videos, she was just
1:06:18
Speaker 3: kind of more leaning towards hey, we want our mom back,
1:06:21
Speaker 3: whatever condition she's in. Either way, I think the law enforcement,
1:06:27
Speaker 3: the FBI, and the Sheriff's office evaluated those with the
1:06:31
Speaker 3: Behavioral Analysis unit analyzing the wording A analyzing whether it's
1:06:37
Speaker 3: real or not, and I don't think any of it
1:06:39
Speaker 3: was real. I think that I don't think the ransom
1:06:42
Speaker 3: was paid, and that's why we still are in this
1:06:45
Speaker 3: type of situation and had nothing to go on at
1:06:48
Speaker 3: this point.
1:06:49
Speaker 1: Also tonight, I want to look at the security door
1:06:52
Speaker 1: on Nancy Gathery's front porch. Let's see that. Now. According
1:06:56
Speaker 1: to a neighbor, this was practically burglar proof. What about
1:07:00
Speaker 1: Dave mac You're exactly right, Nancy.
1:07:03
Speaker 2: A neighbor came forward to say, they have the same
1:07:05
Speaker 2: security door and they are impenetrable. You cannot break in
1:07:09
Speaker 2: through the front door with that security door there.
1:07:13
Speaker 1: That was what she said.
1:07:14
Speaker 2: He that there's no way anybody got through that front door.
1:07:18
Speaker 1: Hmmm, I don't know if I agree with that. Could
1:07:21
Speaker 1: it be could it be subjected to a lock pick?
1:07:27
Speaker 1: Joe Scott? Would that work? I mean, I'm not saying
1:07:31
Speaker 1: break the door down, I'm saying a lock pick.
1:07:34
Speaker 6: Yeah.
1:07:34
Speaker 4: But okay, here's the deal, particularly with tool marks. If
1:07:38
Speaker 4: you look at that dead bolt that's at the top,
1:07:41
Speaker 4: hopefully they've documented that very very well. If they suspected
1:07:46
Speaker 4: that you could see pick marks there, and also you
1:07:49
Speaker 4: would look for any other tool marks. That's a great
1:07:52
Speaker 4: shot right there. Do you see that guard that's on
1:07:54
Speaker 4: the right. One of the things here. When you think
1:07:56
Speaker 4: about the preventative nature of this, can it defeat Can
1:07:59
Speaker 4: a fryebar.
1:08:02
Speaker 1: Defeat that?
1:08:03
Speaker 4: I would say probably not. Without raising a huge ruckus
1:08:07
Speaker 4: in this area, and just looking at that, it doesn't
1:08:09
Speaker 4: look like there's any kind of insult to that margin
1:08:13
Speaker 4: there but the Locke themselves. I suppose that somebody was
1:08:16
Speaker 4: skilled enough they could probably pick it, but it would
1:08:18
Speaker 4: take some time to do that. Nancy.
1:08:21
Speaker 1: Guys, if you know or think you know anything about
1:08:24
Speaker 1: the disappearance of Missus Guthrie, please dial toll free eight
1:08:27
Speaker 1: hundred two two five five three two four, or if
1:08:31
Speaker 1: you wish to remain anonymous five two zero eight eight
1:08:35
Speaker 1: two seven four sixty three. There is a one point
1:08:39
Speaker 1: two plus million dollar reward. Thank you to our guest,
1:08:44
Speaker 1: but especially to you for being with us tonight. Nancy
1:08:47
Speaker 1: Gray signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night,
1:08:50
Speaker 1: and until then, good night friend,