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Emma Grae | The Christian Reeve Podcast #186 · The Christian Reeve Podcast

• 0:00
  Hello and welcome to another episode of the Christian Reef
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  podcast. Today's guest is an author and
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  journalist hailing all the way from Glasgow Scotland.
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  Her name is emigres, welcome to the show.
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  How you doing? I'm good.
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  Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure.
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  We were just talking about this off-camera, like trying to put
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  this together. Has been a challenge challenging
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  sometimes, it happens. But we're finally here with
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  finally here and I just yeah, I'm just going to jump straight
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  into it. How did you actually get into
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  writing like talk us through your journey of?
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  I suppose where it sort of started where you were kind of
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  initially inspired to sort of start writing and then sort of
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  lead us up to where we are now sure.
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  So, in school really, I've been waiting for, since I was a
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  teenager basically on a website called.
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  I think the first time I tried to do and she'll people was on a
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  site called livejournal, which no longer exists as would have
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  been about 2007-2008. I'd been about 14, 13 at that
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  time. No, I've been 14 or 15, I'm not
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  that young. Yeah.
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  So yeah, early early. Not.
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  He's as when I was doing it. And yeah, I just kept doing it
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  since then was very lucky and I did an English degree, which was
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  largely not necessarily a waste of time, but it's not those
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  degrees. Don't get you jobs and you kind
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  of, have to learn that the hard way.
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  I did a master's in rating, which again, was great.
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  Very useful for what I ended up doing.
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  But again, not very useful job by.
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  So, I basically had to kind of fight my way into a job that
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  paid the bills. It's an interesting one.
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  A journalist because I tried to be an English teacher and it, I
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  respect everyone that can do it, but I personally wasn't going to
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  be able to be an English teacher.
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  It takes up so much time, all of your weekends or spent planning
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  lessons. So you know, the errors are in
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  that bad. The actual I might have had men
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  around. It is insane.
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  And the you use when you train to be a teacher teaching as your
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  life and I was not prepared to give up my books so that didn't
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  last very long. That's interesting.
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  Yes. Never knew that like there was
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  an expectation to sort of work on weekends.
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  Like, I always assumed with teaching that, you know, you'd
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  have like dedicated hours intended for that sort of stuff
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  because I was, you're not teaching all the time so you.
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  Yeah, no, really. I think, I think from what I've
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  heard is easier when should be done the job for a couple of
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  years, but when I was doing it, it was very much.
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  Like, when you're training is your entire weekends and like
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  one of the teachers sort of, she knew I was working on a book.
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  So I went straight into it from a rating Masters and she sort of
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  said it all. So when do you think you're
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  going to finish it? And I knew she meant to add a
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  bit to you. We it wasn't even.
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  Are you going to get this published?
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  Are you even going to finish it? And I am, I was like, oh yeah.
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  She she was just like you're never gonna do this like it's
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  impossible and she was right in the sense that she did me a
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  favor because it pushed me out and I was just like, I'm not
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  prepared to do this. So when I was supposed to be
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  doing lesson plans, I was writing a book which is probably
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  why teaching didn't work out very well for me.
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  I just want to pick up on something there.
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  That person saying that to you like like she did me a favor
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  like I understand where she was coming from, but yeah they tell
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  him it was like, oh so if I'm a teacher I'm just a teacher.
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  I it's not possible to do other things when in fiery doing what
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  I've done and doing what I know do I know get to talk to school
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  children and tell them about. It's kind of weird that it was
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  discouraged from within the profession itself.
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  I thought like it's more than that though.
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  Like, I remember years ago, I was living abroad and there was
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  a person who was supposed to be my friend by, and I at the time
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  was, so I'd given up on creativity and stuff.
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  I was just working in, like, marketing, whatever.
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  And just, you know, soul-crushing stuff, right?
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  And kind of just wondering what the hell I was doing with my
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  life. And I remember, I was sitting at
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  friend's house and I mentioned that I, you know, I could sing
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  and write music. I've done it for many years and
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  they sort of turned and looked at me and was like, oh, you
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  could, you can be a singer and I don't know what it is about me
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  as a human being, but when someone tells me I can't do
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  something it just like lights of fire up my ass, and I'm just
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  like, no, no, no. I'm gonna prove you wrong and I
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  feel like, I feel like it's that that's been the theme in my life
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  personally, but bringing it back to yourself, like, I feel like
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  when people like maybe that person didn't mean that maybe
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  she was just like, oh, what are you going to have more time to
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  teaching, or I don't know, whatever.
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  But like, this kind of mentality of either being annoyed that
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  someone's doing something other than the main Or like not
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  getting it or whatever. Like, right now in my life, I'm
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  juggling a 50, 60, our bar job with this podcast stuff that
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  don't patreon acting music, a bunch of different things.
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  I'm trying to do and is it a lot?
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  Yes. Is it smart?
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  Probably not but, you know, still going to do it because I
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  have that dream and it's like what I never quite understand
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  when people pick at that. Glyco, but why would you choose
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  to do that? Why not just settle for this?
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  And it's like because this is what I want to do.
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  Like this is my thing. Yes.
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  As you know it's difficult to explain that somebody doesn't
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  necessarily have the same hash value and a lot of quiet work.
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  People don't necessarily understand like I've been in
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  situations where certain things I've not had the chance to do,
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  with my life purely, because of what I've chosen to do with the
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  books and stuff, and I don't think people are people.
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  People get very confused about my age and stuff like, That they
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  don't like it either. Send the, I'm incredibly young,
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  but I'm like, why the fuck did I sorry?
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  I like to swear that guy Hello's, I have done this, if I
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  wasn't, if I was 21 to start with, that would be literally
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  impossible. I wouldn't have had the time.
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  I would have been like, out of school.
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  I'd be like first year. Like before like a 50,000 word
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  manuscript. That's just not possible or, you
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  know, yeah, it's bizarre. Like it's bizarre it.
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  Or people that the least one, I guess, people assume that I
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  didn't like them at that. I'm not the person that wrote
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  the books. I just promote them all and
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  stuff like that. Yeah, which is weird.
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  Oh, yeah. Well, they call it Ghost Writer
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  or something. It's the world even though I'm
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  the ghost. I don't even know what they
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  think. Like, I think people just sort
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  of sometimes assume that like, oh yeah, cause it's something a
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  lot of people want to do and not many people do it.
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  I'm aware that I was lucky and I was aware that the stars are
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  aligned in a lot of ways and have continued to, but yeah,
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  people just don't understand or they don't.
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  Don't get it like they're like, oh but how how do you actually
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  do that if you're not a celebrity things like that and
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  it's about like it's a lot of hard work.
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  And once if you can tell people that if people have been a
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  melee, if not managed to meet the cart for a huge amount of
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  time and it's purely because they've just not understood my
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  life and what it involves, and the amount of sacrifice that
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  involves because it's a lot. What would you say?
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  I'd like the biggest things you had to sacrifice for this.
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  And relationships for sure. Like I have a very specific
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  schedule and it's not that I can't.
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  It's like if someone wanted a lot of my time on.
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  No. I'm not going to be able to give
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  them it and I wouldn't lie to them about that.
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  But also the fact that if I'm thinking about writing and I've
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  and I've got stuff in my head, I prefer someone who I can talk it
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  through with or he's going to have a degree of Sympathy for
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  the kind of pressure that I'm under and if they don't that can
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  be problem, especially if they themselves are just As someone
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  who goes to work and when they're off work, that's their
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  free time and it's not like that for me because I'm basically
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  juggling two technically free careers.
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  If you include the stuff, I do a Scots language.
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  So it's like I don't have that luxury.
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  Like I had like the week I've been off for four days and like
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  yesterday was the first day, you know, this, it was a Friday
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  evening, it was the second day and I luckily, my friend was
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  super understanding, thankfully, but he was staying in London for
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  the weekend and I feel really bad because he wanted me to go
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  to a concert. And I just Don't have the energy
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  and I was like, I'm sorry I can go for dinner.
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  Thankfully, he still had a nice time, he'd abandon they went for
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  a pain and it was all good. It was fine.
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  But I felt really, really guilty because I was like, for
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  self-care reasons. I cannot go out to this gag and
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  be out to 11:00 because I need an evening to just sort of
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  unwind. If I'm going to get any work
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  done on Monday and Tuesday. I 100% know where you're coming
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  from with this. Like, it's weird how much I can
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  relate to this. Like, I had this conversation
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  with someone recently. Lee and I said, like
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  straight-up. Look if I'm ever going to be in
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  a relationship that person has to just get that.
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  Like most of my time is going to be dedicated to this stuff and
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  like maybe you can come together.
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  I thought I feel like this is different types of people in it.
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  It's like if you're a type of person that is really heavily
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  invested in their work and it takes a lot of their time, you
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  just need someone who's going to get those going to be similar
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  mind and maybe even doing something similar or completely
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  different profession, but they get it.
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  But like, when it's someone that doesn't, it's like It's a damn.
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  It might seem like unfair, like you're being selfish like you,
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  you know, you not caring about them but it's like the end of
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  the day as you knew what you signed up for.
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  Like for me I'm very upfront about it and stuff and I'm like,
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  this is my life. This is the schedule that I'm on
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  and you're gonna have to appreciate is not necessarily
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  someone needs to do something similar like him.
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  I think that's probably not a good thing to be honest.
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  If someone was doing something similar because you don't want
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  to feel like you're in competition with somebody else.
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  More like just even from a friend point of view like I
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  found it but there are people who like one of my closest
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  friends is like has been a colleague before we worked
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  together and we work together on some more stuff featured.
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  My book launch it was great but he has a very similar schedule
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  to me and it's good because it's like, okay, cool like sometimes
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  it motivates me to get more stuff done because he's like
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  he's doing like a second PhD right now.
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  He's insanely just done so much as mad but it's good because
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  it's like okay cool. You get y on.
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  But like, 2:00 in the morning for no apparent reason, which is
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  most. Thanks.
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  Yeah. It's, that's the thing as well.
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  Like I've been saying this to my livestream audience, lately,
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  that like, because there's so little time that I have now,
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  it's like, if anything, it away weirdly, it's kind of been a
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  good things. It kind of makes you appreciate
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  the time you do have and you try to make it work.
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  So it's like, okay, I've only got half an hour here, I'll do
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  this or I've got an hour here, I'll do this or as you put it
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  earlier, sometimes you just have to take a moment for self-care,
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  it's black. I'm just going to sit and Just
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  do nothing for like an hour and then, they'll be like my rest
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  period before I have to go do all this stuff because it is
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  like a second job. Like, as you put it like you
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  working several jobs and then you come home and it's upright,
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  I got work on this stuff but obviously writing, you've got to
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  be in like the right headspace for it, that you can't just go.
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  Okay, I'm just going to sit down and write.
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  Like it's not doesn't work that way.
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  Especially if you got like inspiration, like that just
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  hits. You like 3:00 a.m. your shit.
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  Gotta write this down just a little bit.
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  And then it's like even that much does There's that much
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  rating like the actual process of writing a manuscript is like,
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  it's tiring. Yes.
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  And it's a lot of it's the editing it.
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  That makes it difficult and it's promoting it and stuff.
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  So, right now for example, I'm not waiting till we got a hug me
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  like New Year's Eve. Oh, I can go back to my first
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  book then because I've got half of it written.
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  But I from now till then I've got like admin to do and it's
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  like it's it needs to be done properly because it's going to
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  make my life easier. Down the line.
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  If I know where all my stuff is and it sounds like such a small
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  job but it's really nice. Actually a massive job and cause
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  I do quite a specific type of rating and I get asked to talk
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  about it quite a bit. It's like sort of catch up on, I
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  guess other bits of reading and stuff like that, which is some
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  sort of dedicating, the next five weeks to that.
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  In Philly, I love broken the back of it.
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  Within two weeks in theory, all of got rid of the worst of it
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  but like him is important to give myself.
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  Self time to do that. And a lot of this year, you
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  know, that I've done another book this year.
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  I've I could finish the manuscript or at least, a first
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  draft by last Nee year. And then it was It was kind of
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  early to share this summer where it was kind of like a kind of
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  expanded the book and worked on it.
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  I was quite lucky with the way, the publisher worked and stuff
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  with that one but I was sort of like editing that book writing
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  that book and then I had loads of admin for the first book to
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  do which was a weird situation to be in, but we got there and
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  it seems to have worked out. So, it's all good.
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  Yeah, so, your self publish your work Through a Publishers that
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  right? Leg is a deal range.
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  Minore you? Yes a deal.
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  Yeah, okay, yeah. So what would you say about the
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  benefits of working? With the publisher?
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  For example, you can't get nominated for a lot of literary
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  prizes. If you don't have a publisher,
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  know, that far, as I'm aware, if you get a few self-published you
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  could occasionally get into water stones but it's not
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  common. If you've got a publisher of the
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  old, I put it into water stones for you.
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  They will contact book. Review, yours the well, get you
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  press coverage. Like I'm quite good in that
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  anyway because I'm a journalist so I can kind of, I've been
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  quite at least the second time, it's been helpful for them to
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  know that I can do it. Anyway.
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  First, when I was a wee bit more on my own even though I had a
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  publisher this time right now, thankfully had backup, which has
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  been very helpful because it's been nice to sort of be like,
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  oh, there's a, there's an article about the book and I
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  didn't have to like Chase down the journalists to actually get
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  it done. And so now they've been really,
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  has been really helpful and Yeah, just for literary prizes
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  and stuff like that and even just connections I guess within
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  the world and things they can sort of point you in the right
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  direction and they can also give you deadlines for example, which
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  is, which is very helpful. So obviously you mentioned that
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  you're working on your third book.
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  Now as I can see, right now your first book is the tongue she
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  speaks is that correct? That's the second one.
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  The second one also. I'm sorry.
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  So that's the second one. The first one is be good, too.
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  Yay, I can't. I can't pronounce your mommy be
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  good to you about. Yeah.
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  So when was your first one published this closed in August
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  22, 21, 33, wow, this is working fast and then write them that
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  quickly. This is like 10 over a decade's
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  work just like like quickly. Okay, okay, so it's been, it's
• 14:18
  been a long time in the process, right?
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  Suppose. My next question to you is what
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  would be your kind of Key takeaways from publishing these
• 14:28
  books and sort of them, the after map thereafter because
• 14:31
  I've always wondered, you know, once an author publishes A Book
• 14:34
  Like obviously you know you have your press run.
• 14:36
  You talk about the book, you know.
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  You get interviewed about it, you hopefully enjoy some good
• 14:41
  sales from it as well. But like what would you say were
• 14:44
  the main takeaways from those books?
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  They've been like good confidence, boost, I guess,
• 14:51
  because Mommy did very well but um, she speaks is only been out
• 14:53
  for like a month or so. It's doing well, as far as I'm
• 14:56
  aware button, it'll be interesting to see sort of what
• 14:58
  comes out of it. Usually, you don't really know
• 15:01
  how well a bit stunned, tell Lake it's been a.
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  Well if that makes sense. Like Mommy, never got any like
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  accolades until over a year after it came out because of the
• 15:11
  way the process works and like I'm going up to Edinboro.
• 15:15
  Like, an eight days, seven days. Seven days I'm going up before
• 15:19
  because I have to work some good luck.
• 15:21
  Getting the side of the entry, not from London, and my chef
• 15:23
  starts at 12:30. So have to get to in bruh and
• 15:26
  get to a coffee shop to work so that I can do this.
• 15:30
  But yeah. So mommy did really well and
• 15:33
  it's been a good confidence boost and if Mary hadn't done so
• 15:36
  well the second book wouldn't have existed.
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  The reason the second book came out really quickly was because
• 15:40
  Mary did well and they were sort of I had the second book, it was
• 15:45
  partially commissioned by the Scots Language Center as part of
• 15:48
  like a research project and to the thing and then I was like oh
• 15:51
  this is a young adult novel. I'm just going to write it as 1
• 15:54
  and then I mentioned it on Twitter and a lady who's already
• 15:59
  with that publisher contacted them and said, hey she's got a
• 16:02
  book to and they got in touch with me.
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  So I was really, really lucky that they sort of reached out.
• 16:07
  So yeah, I was very lucky that the second one I wouldn't have
• 16:09
  expected it to. I don't expect to do the third
• 16:12
  one. I don't know what publisher I'm
• 16:14
  going to go with, it's going to depend on various things, but
• 16:19
  with the third book is going to be probably 20, 24, I reckon you
• 16:25
  go. There you go.
• 16:27
  Obviously, and your books are written in Scots language if I
• 16:31
  understand this correctly. So there there that primary form
• 16:34
  is written in the Scots language and then you have like
• 16:36
  translations to other languages as well.
• 16:39
  No ice is purely and Scott's that's interest.
• 16:41
  Well, the first books, Never mix that.
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  There's a character whose chapters are told for a diary
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  and they're like, what they're in English.
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  Basically. It depends on the character
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  depends. There's like English-speaking
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  characters in the books and so yeah but they're entirely in
• 16:54
  Scotts. There's not many books like that
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  at their yeah I was gonna say based on that D, do you know
• 17:02
  what I sometimes maybe about the accessibility for a wider
• 17:04
  audience like I get that. It's targeted for people that
• 17:07
  know Scott's recovery Scots and stuff but like do you not worry
• 17:11
  sometimes? Maybe you might not be able to
• 17:12
  reach. The wider audience because of
• 17:14
  that and I think it's what I'm doing.
• 17:17
  Has worked out much better for me than if I'd written English
• 17:19
  books, because English books. What I should rephrase my
• 17:24
  question. So I don't mean like, only
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  writing in English, what I meant is like having the translations
• 17:29
  as well. So like obviously still in
• 17:31
  Scotts but then having, you know, like, for instance, if
• 17:35
  Luke's would lose a lot, if I did that, like, I think that
• 17:37
  they would work. Okay.
• 17:39
  If someone sold the film rights, then it would work in
• 17:41
  potentially, more of An accessible form of Scott's, but
• 17:44
  I think that it would be losing a lot of what made the books
• 17:48
  good. And also the fact that by
• 17:51
  publishing is very, very, very, very hard.
• 17:53
  Like, I know people who've had agents and stuff and who've on
• 17:56
  the surface being so, so close to like a big deal and it's just
• 17:59
  not materialize because it is really, really hard and Boot and
• 18:04
  it costs a lot of money to publish a book at Cost thousands
• 18:06
  and they don't want to put money behind a book that they don't
• 18:08
  think is going to sell. And so it's sort of You have to
• 18:13
  have your, they do one, like, I met an agent.
• 18:16
  Once he told me that he wouldn't touch anyone with less than
• 18:20
  10,000 followers on like a single social media platform
• 18:23
  because he just said that there's no one that's going to
• 18:25
  know who they are or by the books and that's before he gets
• 18:28
  involved, I've had people pulled out on me, but I do, I do get
• 18:31
  it, I did get it. Like, I've tried to get sponsors
• 18:33
  for this show, for instance, and it's, that's always what I get
• 18:36
  phone with is, well, how many followers do you have?
• 18:38
  How many listeners do you have it?
• 18:39
  It's like we're getting there were getting there.
• 18:41
  Give me a chance. Yeah, it's true.
• 18:46
  Like you got to look ahead just like, oh, if I pump the load of
• 18:49
  money into this, this is where it will be over this time.
• 18:51
  Is this going to be return on investment?
• 18:53
  And it's like, that's, that's, that's just a pure business side
• 18:56
  of it, which is harsh reality, isn't it?
• 18:58
  But you mentioned something interesting.
• 19:00
  You said that, like, obviously, if these novels were then turned
• 19:04
  into films, there would be an argument there, which I could
• 19:06
  totally see, you can cut like subtitles than stuff which would
• 19:09
  be awesome which means you could keep it authentic.
• 19:12
  We in the Scots language. Is that like a goal of you, have
• 19:17
  you spoken to people? Is that?
• 19:19
  So I'd like to, I'd like to, but I don't, it's going to depend on
• 19:23
  the book said, more than I thought they would do.
• 19:25
  But whether that far, I don't know because like someone said,
• 19:28
  oh yeah, there's no Scots language, like, you've got
• 19:30
  trend-spotting, and you've got a couple of others before a huge
• 19:33
  amount of that sort of thing having made it that far.
• 19:36
  I would love if it did but I'm not, I always said I would be
• 19:40
  happy if I publish one book in my life and then I ended up
• 19:42
  somehow doing to before Fair, 80, which is awesome.
• 19:45
  But now I'm like, okay, what's next?
• 19:47
  And I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and if something like
• 19:50
  that materializes that would be great.
• 19:52
  If it doesn't, I'm not going to be crying about it but it would
• 19:55
  be good to sort of. I think the stories that I tell
• 19:57
  her important from like that ghost was like I saw associate
• 20:00
  societal point of view. They have stuff to say and I
• 20:04
  think that my stories aren't necessarily.
• 20:06
  My story is, I'm like very much an observer Observer.
• 20:09
  Like, my first book, I used to work in a nursing home when I
• 20:12
  was at Uni. So a lot of people told me
• 20:14
  Stories and they became characters and stuff and all
• 20:17
  these people are dead now. So it's sort of important to me
• 20:19
  that, you know, I was, I was a vessel for a lot of these
• 20:22
  stories to come into the world. That was in the right place at
• 20:25
  the right time to hear them but you know, it would be nice if
• 20:28
  they reached just beg an audience and as they could, but
• 20:32
  it's not like you don't make money being an offer even when
• 20:35
  you're like signed and stuff like that, unless you're like JK
• 20:38
  Rowling, it's realistically not going to pay the bills.
• 20:41
  Like I've been told by some people who've done really,
• 20:43
  really well. I like how they've done it like
• 20:46
  for example, they make self-published e-book but
• 20:48
  properly publish like the main novel so that they can get Phil,
• 20:52
  Phil, e-book sales because no one's taking a cut things like
• 20:55
  that. So there's there's ways around F
• 20:57
  in the call it being a hybrid offer or like like I said if
• 21:01
  people sell the foam rates and that's going to make them a lot
• 21:03
  more money. Sure.
• 21:06
  I like Intel from now. It's not really like the only
• 21:09
  about the money for you. That's like clearly there's a
• 21:11
  lot more. Yeah.
• 21:12
  If it was if I was doing this I would be doing something else,
• 21:15
  right? Yeah.
• 21:17
  I mean II, read it, like, I know, like authors I've had
• 21:20
  quite a few offers on this show and you could tell like, how
• 21:23
  much time and effort goes into it.
• 21:25
  And, you know, even just the fact that he put the whole
• 21:27
  process can take like a year at a time.
• 21:29
  Maybe even two years at a time, just to put something together,
• 21:32
  shows you everything you need to know early.
• 21:37
  I suppose my net, my next question to you would be just
• 21:42
  talk us through like your passion for the Scots language
• 21:46
  and literature and everything like it clearly booms through we
• 21:50
  can hear a bit more about that but I just kind of want to hear
• 21:52
  in your own words like why is this so important to you?
• 21:56
  I think as I grew up getting told like, the way I spoke was
• 21:59
  wrong, let alone even considered rating and I spent a long time
• 22:02
  trying to write in English and I wasn't not that it was bad at
• 22:05
  English. I wasn't I got an English
• 22:06
  degree, but I was much better at writing in Scotts and I didn't
• 22:10
  come to that realization until I was a Mayor Lee.
• 22:13
  Well late teens early twenties, when it on it, when it even
• 22:16
  occurred to me that that was a thing that you could do.
• 22:18
  It's not something that's encouraged and even know that I
• 22:22
  do, I do get quite a bit of backlash like right on Nana's.
• 22:26
  And basically, all in there, bad reviews are fake reviews from
• 22:29
  people that hate Scots Who Clue. And I would be fine with it if
• 22:32
  they bought the book, but they clearly haven't, which is
• 22:35
  annoying. They're just like, why is she
• 22:36
  doing this? This is a waste of time.
• 22:39
  Like, like, even like there is a guy who I don't know if he's
• 22:43
  still got the job, but he was the head of communications at
• 22:45
  the Tory, party and Scotland and like, said to take like personal
• 22:49
  Digs at me and stuff like that. And it's like, okay, well, I
• 22:52
  guess this is the hell that I'm gonna die on.
• 22:54
  SOL, fine. Do you know, I mean, it's
• 22:59
  difficult to really try and decipher I suppose.
• 23:02
  Idiocy, but, do you know why? There is a backpack?
• 23:07
  I mean, because, okay, from an outsider's perspective, looking
• 23:09
  in, this is what I see. I see a language with where is
• 23:12
  still spoken quite quite commonly in Scotland?
• 23:16
  Maybe not like in all areas. Maybe, you know, I know is okay.
• 23:20
  Forgive my ignorance here, is Scott's different from Scottish
• 23:24
  Gaelic. Yes.
• 23:26
  Okay. All right.
• 23:27
  So that again, there's more of you I've seen entire TV programs
• 23:31
  spoken only and in that language before.
• 23:33
  So I know that there are people region, speaking it, whatever,
• 23:36
  maybe it's still sorting schools, you know, it's clearly
• 23:39
  still like a need for a want for it.
• 23:43
  But then there will always be those so much time skills.
• 23:45
  Basically, Scott's has a sister language to English, so it's
• 23:49
  like a Dutch in Africans are kind of two, similar examples
• 23:52
  were. If you can speak English, you're
• 23:54
  going to understand a lot. Scott's, but that doesn't make
• 23:57
  the same language like Scott's has its own grammar, has its own
• 24:01
  syntax that has. There's loads of words in Scotts
• 24:04
  that mean absolutely nothing to English speakers, but because
• 24:08
  there are, there's Crossovers and there's different ways of,
• 24:11
  like, like the English word for awful is awful, but all fee is
• 24:16
  the Scots word. So there's a similarity to the
• 24:18
  point where an English speaker could sort of understand what
• 24:20
  was going on. And that's where the contention
• 24:23
  comes from, because Scotland's Politically divided right now,
• 24:27
  between unionism, nationalism. And despite the fact that I
• 24:31
  wrote in Scotts, and I I've been almost like people have forced a
• 24:34
  lot of politics on to me. When that was never, my
• 24:36
  intention when I started writing these books, I just wrote them
• 24:40
  because I wanted to say something important from a
• 24:42
  social point of view. Not because I was saying
• 24:44
  anything political, it was never a political nothing.
• 24:46
  I've written apart from taking a dig at Donald Trump in the first
• 24:49
  group. Like I've never actually said in
• 24:51
  different political beliefs, not within the UK point of view.
• 24:55
  But yet, Was the Scots language is a tool of divisionism with
• 24:58
  the rest of the UK and it's sort of like people in school and
• 25:00
  trying to see all the different bits like, but we are like
• 25:03
  whether you want to admit it or not.
• 25:05
  Like I tried to use a ten pound note, from Scotland and Kosta
• 25:09
  and London in the laughter. Well, they don't laugh at me but
• 25:11
  they were like, we can't accept this.
• 25:12
  This is foreign currency and I'm like, you can look is Scotland's
• 25:15
  and the union but they just wouldn't they like we can't take
• 25:17
  this money, okay? I just I just stopped that like
• 25:20
  the bar that I work in here. Manchester we get our Irish and
• 25:24
  as in Northern, Of money and Scottish money all the time.
• 25:27
  And we always accept its legal tender.
• 25:29
  So whoever you are, if you ever see this, which I doubt you
• 25:32
  will, but you're an idiot. Yeah.
• 25:35
  Sorry, that just pisses me off like yeah.
• 25:39
  It's is our I mean, it is kind of that a joke in the UK of
• 25:43
  like, oh, Scottish money, haha. But he is actually legal tender.
• 25:46
  It always has been. So, I don't know.
• 25:49
  I just don't understand because they don't see them like he
• 25:51
  looked at it and they really are.
• 25:52
  This isn't, this is for of money.
• 25:53
  And I'm what? Yeah, but it's not.
• 25:55
  They will accept it. And the guy was just like, I'm
• 25:58
  sorry, we can't, and I'm like, it's saying like, I don't really
• 26:01
  carry cash anyway, but I was just like trying to get rid of
• 26:04
  it in a more, right? Well, I guess I'm going to get
• 26:05
  rid of this when I'm in Edinburgh and not when I'm here.
• 26:08
  I like it's interesting to look at that note.
• 26:10
  That's different from standard ones.
• 26:12
  I know that's just me but yeah. Anyway let's talk a bit more
• 26:20
  about your journalism. How did you get into journalism
• 26:24
  took us for your journey? Any from the beginning to you,
• 26:27
  still doing it now? Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay,
• 26:32
  accidental like I didn't, I didn't do it during ilysm degree
• 26:35
  at Uni. I didn't really plan on being a
• 26:37
  journalist, I just sort of made it out one, which is so
• 26:41
  basically I moved to London after I stopped doing teaching
• 26:45
  and I needed a job and writing and the job.
• 26:48
  I got wanted someone who could write it length.
• 26:50
  That was why they hired me because they knew I had a
• 26:52
  background, whatever, I had a clear rate in Continue.
• 26:55
  I was writing a novel and stuff so they were like, okay.
• 26:57
  She could probably write the kind of content that we want
• 27:01
  which I did, but then the needs of the internet was like the
• 27:05
  wacky Wild West. When it came to advertising and
• 27:07
  2017, it was very, very different.
• 27:10
  The stuff you could get away with back.
• 27:11
  Then from a Content rating point of view you would not get away
• 27:14
  with no. Like there's been a big lick.
• 27:17
  You like long stories of like three or four thousand words.
• 27:21
  People we're beating them before whereas now they don't and So,
• 27:25
  then things changed quite quickly after I started doing
• 27:28
  that. And then, there was a move
• 27:29
  towards, like more traditional journalism, cool.
• 27:32
  Uncle, it wasn't traditional, it was still very much a specific
• 27:35
  type of Journalism, and so I did that.
• 27:38
  And then am basically learned on the job, like my first like, and
• 27:42
  I give us 2017. Yeah, we'd be noticed that the
• 27:45
  summer. Remember having to write a book
• 27:47
  like politics and I like had no concept of impartiality.
• 27:50
  Because I was just someone who wrote novels, like I didn't like
• 27:53
  I was not a journalist but You are not quite quickly.
• 27:56
  Like, if you're on the job and you're doing it for like nine
• 27:58
  hours a day, you learn it quite quickly and so I did learn and
• 28:02
  then so I basically got taught by doing and then am.
• 28:06
  I was told that I wouldn't be able to progress as a journalist
• 28:09
  because I only had an English degree in there.
• 28:11
  Like you don't have any media lot of training so you're not
• 28:13
  going to get anywhere regardless of the fact that you've got tons
• 28:15
  of experience. So I am during lockdown, I did
• 28:20
  like an n ctg in journalism. So I've got all my papers.
• 28:23
  No, thankfully and it was a pea Pain in the bum.
• 28:26
  It was expensive but I've got it.
• 28:28
  No sir no one can talk. But now I'm in the fortunate
• 28:30
  position because a lot of people go to UNI, do a journalism
• 28:32
  degree in. Can't get any experience to the
• 28:34
  degrees worthless. You can only both, trust me mad.
• 28:39
  It's that whole fucking Catch-22 thing about why did the
• 28:42
  experience? But I haven't got the degree or
• 28:44
  got the degree with no experience.
• 28:45
  It's like it was the same when I finished my degree in marketing,
• 28:48
  like, you know, obviously I didn't have any expert.
• 28:51
  I like maybe two to three months to my name and they're like, oh
• 28:54
  well, you need three to five years.
• 28:55
  Like, I've just finished my degree.
• 28:57
  How the fuck am I gonna get free 25 years?
• 28:59
  Yeah and I feel really bad about it too, because like, I was very
• 29:02
  lucky that I was in my first job in journalism for like five
• 29:06
  years and then I was lucky that I left.
• 29:09
  And again, my writing does open doors even with in journalism,
• 29:12
  which is awesome. So I worked in an archive for
• 29:15
  about a year. Oh, wow.
• 29:16
  And about what's working television?
• 29:18
  Which was cool. I would name them, but it was
• 29:20
  like, it was an archive, which was cool and that that for about
• 29:23
  a year. So they taught me how to videos.
• 29:25
  Edit. So I can, like, I can I can
• 29:27
  produce, which is cool. Not saying I'm an expert
• 29:30
  addicts. I'm not but I don't get taught
• 29:31
  by the right people and the right place which was really
• 29:34
  cool and that was handy. So I was very lucky that I got
• 29:37
  like the right training on site and I feel really really bad for
• 29:40
  people that just can't get older Ken because you know, that you
• 29:43
  were very much in the right place at the right time to get
• 29:46
  that training. That's enabled me to do what I
• 29:48
  do. But I also feel answers a
• 29:50
  journalist. So I've written for like cause
• 29:52
  more refinery29 Huffington Post. I did a lot of that during
• 29:57
  lockdown, but before a lot, Dana was trying to freelance because
• 30:00
  I realized I could make Quail the quite nice like money on top
• 30:03
  of my normal job. Like like if you're lucky you're
• 30:06
  not that you get this all the time.
• 30:08
  But like if you if you have good ideas and you sell them to the
• 30:11
  right place, you can get like 800 know so you can get 250
• 30:15
  pounds for 800 words, if you can feel as well.
• 30:17
  So that's like a really good read for like 45 to 50 hours
• 30:21
  work, which is awesome. So I've No, not been
• 30:26
  freelancing. I've acted at that still.
• 30:28
  I actually don't want this year, but I don't do very much last
• 30:30
  year but I kind of write about Scots language.
• 30:34
  No, that's sort of turned into things.
• 30:35
  So it's sort of merging the two and I do that quite regularly
• 30:38
  which is nice and top of my normal job, which is like just
• 30:42
  like standard news standard features kind of thing.
• 30:46
  But yes, it's a difficult industry because a lot of people
• 30:49
  in it and it kind of like me, I guess, sort of gotten to it kind
• 30:54
  of backdoor which meant that I guess had lots of experience
• 30:57
  which and then they maybe got the qualifications once they
• 31:00
  were already in the door because like I get a lot of emails from
• 31:03
  people saying, oh, can we come for work experience?
• 31:05
  And I feel like a I've had people contact me on Twitter and
• 31:08
  I've just sort of given them. My best advice which is
• 31:12
  freelance. If you can't get actual work
• 31:14
  experience, if your ideas are good enough and editor, make
• 31:17
  commission them. But in terms of like, getting
• 31:21
  into like big media companies and stuff, like I wouldn't even
• 31:24
  know. we're to begin suggesting it because I know it's like a
• 31:28
  it's like a big metal door that you can't see the back off
• 31:31
  because I went to One of the big companies in Belfast, when I
• 31:36
  lived in Ireland and him, this was before, I had any
• 31:39
  experience. And within five minutes of going
• 31:41
  for the interview, I knew I wasn't gonna get it because I
• 31:43
  was like, I'm not going to get this.
• 31:45
  I know I'm not because there's like 400 people.
• 31:47
  Will it was something like 400 people for like 20 jobs.
• 31:50
  I was like, there's no point, like what's the point in there.
• 31:52
  So I'm just not going to get a look in and I did and I was
• 31:55
  right. I was just lucky that I got the
• 31:57
  job. I got in London when I got it
• 31:59
  and I was lucky that I was able to make money through other
• 32:03
  sources. Verses to pay for the
• 32:04
  journalism, the journalism and qualification because that was
• 32:09
  expensive. That was like an extra four
• 32:10
  grand, which is like That wasn't ideal because I didn't want to
• 32:15
  be taken on that kind of that. But I did manage to get get a
• 32:18
  paid off for that was locked and and a lot of hard work because
• 32:23
  drink orbit, I was basically working three jobs as well.
• 32:28
  How did you find the time? How did you do it without just
• 32:32
  losing your mind? There is anything else.
• 32:35
  I dream, covid-19 better to do with my time.
• 32:37
  I realized the journalism school on a Saturday, right?
• 32:43
  And now on a Wednesday at 8:00, but I wasn't doing anything
• 32:46
  else. I was stuck in the house.
• 32:47
  So I was like, okay, fine. And cause I'd already done two
• 32:50
  degrees. I already knew I could study
• 32:52
  quite well and already done a master.
• 32:54
  So for me it was like okay I'm just going to wing this one and
• 32:58
  I was lucky that but there was a portfolio for example that you
• 33:01
  had to do as part of the master's degree but I already
• 33:03
  had not. It's not a master's degree.
• 33:05
  It's like a postgraduate. It's not technically a master's.
• 33:07
  It's a weird feeling that if you've done it you'll know what
• 33:10
  I'm talking about but I already could I could use stuff.
• 33:12
  Already written at work because my portfolio, which meant I
• 33:14
  didn't really need to worry too much about that part of the
• 33:16
  course already kind of had what I needed, as long as it been
• 33:19
  written and published within the past year, we do.
• 33:22
  Some people were coming straight from uni, so they didn't have
• 33:24
  any journalism experience. So for people, that me, it was
• 33:26
  about easier to sort of just get the papers but it's horribly
• 33:30
  unfair. It's horribly.
• 33:32
  Unfair is not nice and I feel really bad for people coming out
• 33:37
  of uni because all of the companies have gone remote know.
• 33:40
  So how are you supposed to get? It was bad enough.
• 33:42
  Going to get experienced before. How are you meant to get it?
• 33:45
  When the office is empty, who's going to teach you?
• 33:48
  Yeah, like I can relate to this somewhat like I feel like
• 33:52
  sometimes in certain industries, certain places.
• 33:54
  It is just a case of like, do they like you?
• 33:57
  Or they wouldn't spend the time on you if they do, they let you
• 33:59
  in Happy Days. You know, it's the beginning of
• 34:02
  something very special potentially, and you can get a
• 34:04
  lot of opportunities that way, but sometimes you just don't get
• 34:07
  that and it's like you're just relying on other people and The
• 34:13
  Goodwill of other people. It is just what eat a what he
• 34:16
  did. How do you do that?
• 34:17
  I guess you just keep trying, keep throwing yourself into
• 34:20
  situations and just seeing horrible.
• 34:22
  If people I know who won't attend and I was able to get the
• 34:25
  moment, I felt really, really bad because when in certain
• 34:28
  places when they're her and see if you got friend, that wants to
• 34:31
  do journalism, who wants in, because they're going to get 300
• 34:34
  CDs and they're all going to there's going to be like 40 or
• 34:38
  50 of them. They are probably old perfectly
• 34:40
  able candidate so then they'll be Library.
• 34:41
  Do you know this person Person in real life.
• 34:43
  Are they defending be a good fit, would be a get on with
• 34:47
  them? And then they kind of take it
• 34:49
  from there and it isn't fair. It's not like I've seen it and
• 34:53
  it's, it's crap that like people who know people get further, if
• 34:57
  they know the right people, that mean that's not necessarily
• 35:00
  true. In the sense that what the job I
• 35:01
  had in television. I didn't know anybody like that.
• 35:05
  All I got that. Just because of the books and
• 35:07
  stuff and they thought, well, she's probably going to be able
• 35:10
  to do this but it was and I was lucky.
• 35:12
  That they it was such a bad company that they paid for.
• 35:14
  Like I think if I'd paid for the training, it would have been
• 35:18
  something that would have been well over a Grands worth of
• 35:20
  training, just got just to be able to do the job.
• 35:22
  So I got sent away to a slow course and it sucks because it's
• 35:26
  like, how are people supposed to have that kind of money
• 35:28
  especially as it came straight from uni.
• 35:30
  Because obviously in England you have to pay for your degree or
• 35:32
  not realistically going to have that kind of money to pay for
• 35:35
  it. So you rely on the company
• 35:36
  paying for it, not every company is prepared to train you because
• 35:41
  they may not get their investment.
• 35:42
  Because it's bring it back to being a journalist for a second.
• 35:47
  What's the strangest or craziest story you've ever covered your
• 35:51
  time as a journalist? Oh God.
• 35:54
  Where to start? Not everything.
• 35:57
  Like literally everything. Like I'm like sexier than
• 35:59
  though. I think you name it.
• 36:01
  I've written about it. You can think is the weirdest
• 36:02
  shit ever. And I've done it, like the
• 36:06
  weirdest of the weird. I have done it.
• 36:08
  So anything in particular that stands out to you that maybe
• 36:10
  just you a lot. What if I don't write about
• 36:13
  this? I've done everything, I've done
• 36:18
  cannibalism. I've done, I've done stuff on
• 36:22
  with the stuff on death loads. Like, literally, you name it,
• 36:26
  I've done it at this point. I've done it all, been there,
• 36:29
  done that one and got the T-shirt.
• 36:30
  I've done a pandemic of done, like us elections of done it
• 36:32
  all, and I don't understand it especially where that, like, in
• 36:36
  the time that I've been a journalist, like you think it's
• 36:39
  done and it's not on the queen dying was definitely everyone.
• 36:43
  Like, we all said it was going to be a big deal and everyone
• 36:45
  was kind of Paired and, like, I'd done like we called it
• 36:48
  London, Bridge. Like we were all really really
• 36:50
  prepared for it. And the reality of it was the
• 36:54
  actual day of the funeral wasn't actually, that interesting.
• 36:57
  Hmm. But I was expecting the actual
• 36:59
  day of the announcement. Like, we were old.
• 37:00
  I knew she'd died at like, 2:00 in the afternoon because of my
• 37:03
  job, which was weird, though. It looks like we hadn't died
• 37:06
  then they don't called it was the BBC went to ruling coverage,
• 37:09
  which meant that they knew she died.
• 37:11
  Yeah. Because they get a message ahead
• 37:14
  of time and then they have to get everything prepared.
• 37:16
  Like media companies knew ahead of time, they had sources in the
• 37:18
  palace, so they would have probably imagine.
• 37:21
  I wasn't on TV at the time I was just I was just threatened
• 37:23
  journalism, bit like him when the the plan was always, it
• 37:29
  wasn't even like a very like, well secret plan.
• 37:31
  Like, there's news articles about it, but the idea was that
• 37:33
  the moment that she died that they would switch to ruling
• 37:36
  coverage. So everyone using to BBC
• 37:37
  presenters were in like black ties.
• 37:39
  As she was Dead or dying. And it's quite funny because I
• 37:42
  was in Costa was supposed to be my day off.
• 37:44
  And of course, I never get a day off and there were all their
• 37:48
  people in the coffee shop. And they really ought to think
• 37:50
  she's dead. She's dead Eternal.
• 37:51
  I'm a journalist. She said, sorry, it really an
• 37:55
  instant and then I was like, can you guys look after my laptop
• 38:00
  belly run to the toilet? Please.
• 38:01
  Because I need to this is going to.
• 38:03
  Yeah. So yeah, that was fun and I got
• 38:05
  to do like a cool piece. Unlike her, the queen spoke
• 38:07
  Scott's which was fun. So I got to do like I got like a
• 38:09
  big cool neutral A week which was cool and Scotland.
• 38:12
  So that was nice to actually have something to show for that
• 38:15
  week. That's like a proper.
• 38:17
  I don't, I don't do that much print journalism.
• 38:19
  So it's nice when I get to do it because it's nice to feel like
• 38:21
  you're in a newspaper. Yeah, coincidentally, she was
• 38:25
  actually in Scotland, believe about the time of her tomorrow.
• 38:29
  Yeah. This is interesting.
• 38:31
  And it was a unicorn on London Bridge.
• 38:34
  I believe if I remember correctly it's like is it.
• 38:37
  I remember I was working at the bar, she got tangled The called
• 38:40
  a unicorn when she died in Scotland, right?
• 38:44
  As it is, interested in light. Just, just watching, because,
• 38:48
  okay, I was at the bar where he got announced.
• 38:52
  I don't want this whole shift to do and you know, and the day of
• 38:54
  the funeral and everything, both very weird days.
• 38:57
  But I remember just wrote the role in coverage of just like
• 39:01
  seeing a car driving down the motorway.
• 39:04
  We're just, this is so weird. But like something out of one of
• 39:08
  those like u.s. cop shows except there's like, no one chasing
• 39:11
  them. It's just the car.
• 39:12
  Yeah. This really odd.
• 39:14
  And then you and also just it kind of reminds you just how far
• 39:17
  it is between Scotland and England.
• 39:19
  Like, if you drive, it's just takes forever about more or
• 39:22
  less. I was like really far out like
• 39:24
  it's far like I mean I was in the highlands like two weeks ago
• 39:30
  to get from the Halen's to get from classical to the very top
• 39:33
  of Scotland is farther from Glasgow to London.
• 39:36
  That's how big it is. Like, if you, if you go right up
• 39:38
  the top, it can take you longer. Yeah.
• 39:40
  Because I was right at the top and it took like it's five and a
• 39:44
  half hours from Glasgow, but you can get from London to Glasgow
• 39:47
  in like four and a half. Damn impressive.
• 39:51
  Can you get to the lip gloss coat while by train?
• 39:54
  No no. But call me if I train is four
• 39:57
  and a half. Yeah, yeah.
• 39:58
  I was gonna say, yeah, nobody called a half on the train.
• 40:01
  It's not by driving longer for sure.
• 40:04
  Yeah, I remember because my, my family, on my dad's side of the
• 40:11
  Scottish and it's funny like, whatever they tell me like going
• 40:14
  to Scotland. It's like tasting, like 12, 13
• 40:17
  hours. If you go by coach.
• 40:18
  I might like it's bad enough when I take the coach down to
• 40:21
  London just to see family for five hours.
• 40:23
  So I kind of Imagine sitting on the couch for like 13 hours,
• 40:25
  like I do all the time, doing it and like 2:30, it's like 13
• 40:30
  pounds 13. Yeah, if you look at an
• 40:33
  advantage, you can get from Glasgow to London for 13 quid.
• 40:37
  Whereas if the training is last minute, you're talking like a
• 40:41
  hundred quid. So for me, it's like if I have
• 40:44
  to do it regularly, I don't like it, but I'm not peeing.
• 40:46
  I refuse to pay that kind of money on the If you picture
• 40:50
  yourself in advance, you can get it for like between like 30 and
• 40:52
  60, which is like, okay, maybe? But like, if you're doing it but
• 40:57
  also, like, I want to, for example, next Friday.
• 41:00
  See, my friend and I either big a hotel and stay an extra day,
• 41:05
  or I get the bus back to London at 11:30 at night after a few
• 41:08
  drinks. So I'm going to get the bus back
• 41:10
  after a few drinks. It's just easier, just fall
• 41:13
  asleep. It's good idea.
• 41:18
  It's frustrating, isn't it? I've had the same thing because
• 41:21
  every time I get to coach because remember one time
• 41:25
  weighing out but I'd either pay 40 pounds as in 20 pounds each
• 41:29
  way the coach, so 40-pound in total or pay, I think it was 124
• 41:37
  the train One Way, possibly or 144 playing Softly playing as an
• 41:43
  option that, you know, my sister's not even that far.
• 41:48
  No. It's not, it's really not but it
• 41:50
  just. Yeah, that just straight.
• 41:53
  I've done the bus so many times at Manchester's like not even
• 41:56
  the half way point. That's like that's like get this
• 41:58
  is facing other day. I just I I've never been in a
• 42:02
  position where I can afford the train.
• 42:03
  Unfortunately I would love to I've nothing done the journey on
• 42:06
  the train so that would be nice to just experience that one.
• 42:09
  Anyway, I went up to Manchester like two months ago and for a
• 42:13
  work trip that I didn't even get to see most of the way.
• 42:16
  The train was. So oversubscribed that was
• 42:17
  sitting in the The luggage rack. Well, my little sister, which
• 42:21
  was crap because somebody says, well, they were like go to
• 42:25
  yourself. Yeah, the train service is a
• 42:27
  nightmare. So even if you've got a train
• 42:29
  ticket, doesn't necessarily mean you're going to get seat right
• 42:31
  now. Hmm, maybe Co may be coaching so
• 42:36
  bad. It's not so bad.
• 42:38
  If you can't get a seat on the tree and got to stand from
• 42:40
  London, to Manchester it's awful.
• 42:43
  I can't be dude. That could be did what's the
• 42:48
  most inspiring story you've ever covered in your journalism
• 42:51
  career? Again it's really hard to like
• 42:56
  pick like one like specific thing because you interview a
• 43:00
  lot of interesting people. Sounds like I don't have but
• 43:06
  I've not done anything. I have I've done so much that
• 43:08
  it's really really hard to pick. I get it.
• 43:14
  There was a thing on Netflix that committee last year called
• 43:16
  cease Pharisee, like about how we need to stop eating fish and
• 43:20
  there was a guy in it called George.
• 43:22
  I can't say his name. And b or whatever his name is,
• 43:25
  it really really big environmentalist and him I got
• 43:27
  in touch like Street after the not the Netflix documentary came
• 43:30
  out and he gave me like an hour and a half of his time, which
• 43:32
  was so kind of him because I don't think, I even realized I
• 43:34
  could make a deal, he was and then he spoke about the
• 43:37
  documentary and like such amazing detail and he'd written
• 43:41
  all these books like about just like how bad things are going
• 43:44
  for the planet and stuff like that and him.
• 43:47
  Yeah, the stuff he said, was amazing.
• 43:48
  That was like, such a good feature and him.
• 43:51
  He spoke about her, the rspca like, Actually kills seals
• 43:56
  sometimes, which like, nobody would like, even know because
• 44:00
  they see it as like a culling issue with regards to fish or
• 44:02
  something. I believe.
• 44:03
  I'm don't quote me on that one. If you want to look it up, it's
• 44:07
  a, it would be my name again, is Soiree journalism under and if
• 44:10
  you look up, seeks, variceal come up.
• 44:13
  And I know that was fascinating to just sort of see like that.
• 44:16
  Not all these organizations are quite what they have.
• 44:19
  I'm sure the rspca does do good work.
• 44:21
  But in certain sectors, they don't and him.
• 44:24
  Yeah, it was it was certainly like like I didn't even realize
• 44:27
  it, like fish have a specific type of chlamydia.
• 44:30
  So if you're eating fish or just eating chlamydia and then in my
• 44:33
  verified, this with an offer that I know who's a vet, he's
• 44:36
  likes, not the same as human comedy about.
• 44:38
  There is like a fly fish, come idea.
• 44:39
  And my dad worked in a fish farm.
• 44:41
  He's like, yeah. All the salmon have chlamydia.
• 44:42
  This is like a fact and I'm like, well it's a good thing
• 44:45
  I've been vegetarian for 10 years because I don't fancy
• 44:48
  that. Would that give you like
• 44:51
  symptoms or is it not the same way?
• 44:54
  Safe to consume as far as I'm aware of it.
• 44:56
  Like it's like these, I mean, when you think about it, like
• 44:59
  it's 24 right now to buy a hamburger than it is to buy, a
• 45:02
  veggie burger. So what kind of Life did that
• 45:05
  animal lead to purchase for a pound?
• 45:08
  Like realistically it's going to have had a pretty crap life and
• 45:11
  all these animals that are getting treated like really
• 45:14
  badly or realistically. By the time they get cold,
• 45:16
  they're going to be filled with cancer, all sorts of stuff and
• 45:18
  you're consuming that willingly. It's like it's and it's a shame
• 45:23
  as well because people People often, I don't, like, I don't
• 45:26
  like peachy vegans, quote, unquote, I'm not a vegan.
• 45:29
  Get any better? I would find it difficult to
• 45:31
  check food packets because I have OCD and I don't want to, I
• 45:36
  don't want to be, I tried to be vegan.
• 45:39
  I won't eat vegan if it's an option, but I don't want to put
• 45:42
  myself in a situation where I'm constantly checking labels
• 45:44
  because I know that's not good for me.
• 45:46
  And but yeah, there was like, I had a vegan ones who basically
• 45:50
  imply. There was an asshole for having
• 45:52
  a cat. And I'm like, what?
• 45:55
  Yeah, because she eats meat and he's like he sort of said to me,
• 45:58
  I know someone who's got a cat that's vegan and I'm where I'm
• 46:00
  not doing that. Like, she's a cat.
• 46:02
  She's getting cat food. Oh, I see.
• 46:07
  Okay, we're like this idea that animals is somehow inherently
• 46:11
  cruel. Like, if you get into a really
• 46:12
  extreme veganism, that's what that's what they believe like.
• 46:14
  I mean, I've got pets who I've, I've kept rodents know for a for
• 46:18
  15 years. I have spent thousands of
• 46:21
  pounds, keeping these animals alive And they all came from
• 46:24
  rescues and they would have, almost certainly not had very
• 46:27
  good lives if they'd gone to people who didn't know how to
• 46:29
  look after them because all the time, they don't especially if
• 46:31
  it's like a rat, they're like, oh, it's just a rat who gives a
• 46:34
  shit what happens to it, you know?
• 46:36
  But like I looked after properly, it can be, it's very
• 46:39
  expensive because the class does exotic animals which people
• 46:42
  don't realize same of hamsters their exotic animals.
• 46:45
  And if it's not a cat or a dog as far as its concerned as an
• 46:48
  exotic animal, I think as well like with cats and dogs.
• 46:51
  I think what people forget To realize it because I've seen
• 46:54
  this a lot like, in other countries, I remember when I
• 46:56
  went to Bulgaria for the first time seeing like stray cats and
• 47:00
  dogs and it was, it was depressing.
• 47:02
  Like I remember thinking like, this is awful, like, surely, we
• 47:04
  could find a home for them, like they wouldn't necessarily
• 47:09
  survive in the wild. Like, obviously, you can, you
• 47:11
  see like cats? So, pretty proactive.
• 47:13
  And they're able to look after themselves, but they still will
• 47:16
  probably have a home to go to. That's the thing and it's like,
• 47:21
  if you actually put them into the wild wild, They won't
• 47:23
  survive for real. They just want their lazy like
• 47:28
  they're really lazy like very immediate.
• 47:30
  My cat like one send cries and she was, I she cries and I'm
• 47:33
  like, make up your mind please. She knows what she wants.
• 47:37
  But yeah, she's like, I got her as a kitten purely and I was I
• 47:41
  would have liked to have adopt a kitten.
• 47:43
  The reason I didn't was because I've got rats and I needed a cat
• 47:47
  that would not see them as dinner, and thankfully, she
• 47:50
  doesn't she's not, she doesn't really know what they are.
• 47:52
  Like, she doesn't She's met them before some cats and rats.
• 47:55
  People have had instances where they've befriended each other
• 47:57
  like a proper Tom and Jerry situation.
• 47:59
  Cool. He's just grown up around them
• 48:01
  so she doesn't see them as food. She doesn't get to interact with
• 48:04
  them. But she she sleeps in my bedroom
• 48:06
  and the cat, their acts are here as well.
• 48:09
  And she to never approved products, some reports of our
• 48:12
  fathers with them. They, she doesn't care and they
• 48:14
  don't really care about her either.
• 48:16
  They don't They're more interested in getting food off
• 48:19
  of me like she stole all my cheese last night so I had to
• 48:21
  give them some his. Yeah, she all the cheese kind of
• 48:24
  CGI didn't know this cats. Eat cheese, what probably just
• 48:27
  my cat. She stole the sweater all ones.
• 48:29
  Like she really has weird. I love animals but as we wind it
• 48:37
  down I've got like a few sort of questions that I want to ask to
• 48:41
  you. What would you like your legacy
• 48:43
  to be? Don't know.
• 48:46
  I think, I think it would definitely be like, throwing
• 48:49
  issues around mental health. Awareness telling stories like
• 48:53
  telling something worthwhile about the world as it was when I
• 48:56
  lived in the world. Because I think that's really
• 48:58
  important. Like if you like don't try and
• 49:03
  write like I right about the time that I knew like my second
• 49:06
  book is say it. Like in 2007, it deals a lot
• 49:08
  with like email culture, which is like in like Bieber windows
• 49:14
  and it's been Kill to sort of write about that because I've
• 49:16
  spoken to younger and leaders who are like 10 years younger
• 49:18
  than me, and it's really weird because they don't know what I'm
• 49:20
  talking about. And I would even class 2007 is,
• 49:23
  like historical, orbit to people who are teenagers.
• 49:26
  Know that is historical because they were just kids when that
• 49:29
  happened. And so for me like a sense of
• 49:32
  the world as it was in certain places at certain times is
• 49:35
  really important but also seeing something worthwhile about you
• 49:39
  know about mental health about people about how they interact
• 49:42
  with each other that seems to sort of be The main themes and
• 49:45
  obviously it's not even Scots language but this idea of like
• 49:49
  how someone talks or their language or their we being and
• 49:53
  heard that that is still valid even if it's not seen as quote
• 49:57
  on quote proper and the way that, you know, the queen's
• 50:01
  English as like I grew up being told that.
• 50:03
  Like if you want to be a writer you have to write like
• 50:05
  Shakespeare which is not true. And I think that, you know, I'm
• 50:09
  very lucky. Like I imagine the more people
• 50:11
  that write this the types of books that I do the harder, it
• 50:13
  will be to publish because like right now Now, as a fairly niche
• 50:16
  market which I which gives me an advantage but it also gives me a
• 50:19
  better responsibility to do it in the right way.
• 50:22
  Which is, why Beyond like morals.
• 50:26
  Like I mean, oh no, the political landscape in the u.k.
• 50:28
  right now is a bit of a dumpster fire but like him for me it's
• 50:32
  important to be not political because I don't want that at
• 50:35
  all, my work to get mixed up and that and I think politics can be
• 50:38
  dangerous and a lot of ways. And I want to be especially
• 50:42
  around the subject of like Independence and stuff.
• 50:44
  I want to Non-political. And I think that that's
• 50:46
  important to sort of see this is writing stories set in a certain
• 50:50
  place or with people talking in a certain way, doesn't
• 50:54
  necessarily make them political even though people say their
• 50:57
  political and not necessarily know I get what you're saying,
• 51:01
  I'm the same like I don't I've had people on the show before
• 51:05
  that religious. I've had people who into
• 51:08
  politics. I sort of made the decision a
• 51:10
  long time ago that I wouldn't necessarily completely ignore
• 51:13
  those things, but I I would not like actively promote them per
• 51:18
  se Jen. I mean, like I would expect I
• 51:20
  wanted to share stories, people's stories, people's
• 51:23
  livelihoods and stuff like that. And I think for the most part,
• 51:25
  we've been able to what I've been able to achieve that on
• 51:28
  this show, but same as you. I don't want to get mixed in
• 51:31
  those things, because one of the biggest reasons is I'm not.
• 51:34
  I'm very like, on the fence with everything which I know people
• 51:37
  will find frustrating, but it's like, you know, you got to be
• 51:40
  true to what you believe in, you know what I mean?
• 51:43
  It's like and Like, I don't I think that also there's a
• 51:47
  freedom in not having to there's a freedom in like, for instance,
• 51:50
  I've never voted. Just let me know.
• 51:53
  No, I've not and, you know, maybe that will change one day,
• 51:56
  you know, it's probably will with the way things are going.
• 52:00
  But there's a freedom in being able to not choose to do these
• 52:04
  things. A freedom in not being forced to
• 52:06
  have to pick a side or put dueling.
• 52:08
  It's like, thank you, depends. I think if you're in a situation
• 52:11
  which I'm definitely in we're people Care about my opinion on
• 52:16
  certain subjects. It's important for me to not
• 52:19
  tell people what to do. I'd rather sort of not be that
• 52:22
  kind of person. I've spent like some of the
• 52:24
  worst people I've ever met in my life have been, especially with
• 52:26
  our religion and being. This is my view and anyone that
• 52:31
  disagrees, with this for anyone whose life still isn't any, we
• 52:34
  alternative to my view is a bad person, right?
• 52:37
  This is the view, that's, that's right.
• 52:39
  This is, this is the weirdest, is how you should be.
• 52:42
  And I think we're living in a world especially with Social
• 52:46
  media and with, you know, like peoples, for example, someone
• 52:50
  said that they were going to predict in the future, there's
• 52:52
  going to be a lot less children. A lot less people getting
• 52:54
  married a lot more alternative relationship Styles, things like
• 52:58
  that and that, you know, but you do have people who on the
• 53:02
  surface, may see that they're quite open-minded, but
• 53:04
  realistically when push comes to shove were actually still
• 53:07
  holding onto conservative values and it's sort of Sort of
• 53:13
  advocating for the choice I guess.
• 53:14
  And not and not and not judging people like that mean.
• 53:17
  Everyone is going to judge other people to an extent.
• 53:20
  I am judging these people for being judgey like I'm aware of
• 53:22
  that. Arguably makes me happy crap,
• 53:24
  but I would never, if I was interacting with them, I would
• 53:28
  still try and treat them with the same respect that.
• 53:30
  I would hope they'd shoot me but I have definitely been treated
• 53:35
  badly because of perceived political views because he
• 53:38
  perceived moral views. When a lot of the time these
• 53:40
  people who are Extreme money. Either sense aren't actually
• 53:43
  willing to have a conversation. They're just willing to assume
• 53:45
  and that's something that I deal with a bit in my second book as
• 53:49
  well because it's not, right? And it should, it will never be
• 53:52
  an ideal world, but it would be good if it was.
• 53:54
  I totally agree. I've got friends that are, you
• 53:56
  know, from various different religious backgrounds and I can
• 53:59
  have a conversation with him all day and it's great.
• 54:01
  And then there's other people where it's like, as you put it
• 54:04
  very preachy, kind of just shoving it down your throat.
• 54:06
  And it's like, I don't want to listen to that, you know, like I
• 54:09
  had someone funnily enough, I think, Was yesterday in my
• 54:13
  stream just kept just going on and on and on about like, oh,
• 54:17
  you have to believe this and you live a sinful life did and I was
• 54:20
  like, listen, you can just leave, it's okay, you know, you
• 54:23
  believe what you want to believe, but you don't have to
• 54:25
  be here and I don't personally share your views and they just
• 54:30
  wouldn't drop it. So, we just put them out the
• 54:32
  room and it's like, I don't understand, I don't understand
• 54:36
  this this mindset of like thinking that you should go
• 54:39
  around preaching. Do other people like I get like
• 54:43
  wanting to help other people and introduce people to new ideas
• 54:46
  and stuff. That's cool.
• 54:47
  That's awesome. But like you have to accept that
• 54:50
  like people sometimes ago be like, no, I don't want to, I
• 54:54
  don't appreciate that and it's like, just let it go.
• 54:56
  Yeah, it just let it go. I think that's a chef.
• 54:59
  And that's one of the reasons why I like, I guess with like
• 55:04
  like creative Pursuits and things that people do, but make
• 55:08
  it hard as because it fundamentally is an alternative
• 55:11
  lifestyle choice because you if you're going to do it and in and
• 55:16
  be able to sustain yourself financially and stuff, it's not
• 55:18
  necessarily going to be your main job unless you're extremely
• 55:22
  lucky and even then if has become, if I ever get into a
• 55:25
  situation where I'm relying more on my books and speaking about
• 55:29
  the books and things like that as a way to make money, You
• 55:32
  know, I'm still almost certainly going to have to do some form of
• 55:35
  Journalism. It's just going to be a
• 55:36
  different way of working what I'm already doing and and and
• 55:40
  sort of making that choice. Like a lot of people like the
• 55:43
  idea of, for example, having a podcast, they like the idea of
• 55:46
  making music but the actual reality of doing it is
• 55:49
  completely different. Like when you know, people that
• 55:52
  do it, you're like like I was just talking to like someone who
• 55:56
  is a musician and try to like work out, okay?
• 55:59
  Be cool to hang out, but like how are we actually going to
• 56:01
  like make time to hang out? It's gonna have to be during the
• 56:03
  day, it's not going to be an evening thing you know because
• 56:07
  if you're trying to do these things and like even like on I'm
• 56:10
  supposed to meet what my publisher of got to Publishers.
• 56:13
  It's a bit complicated right now but supposed to meet them on
• 56:16
  Friday. And I'm working a late shift, as
• 56:18
  a journalist on Friday. So I'm like, right, how am I
• 56:21
  going to work this? Do I go into Central London and
• 56:23
  sit in a cafe? And on my lunch break, do a
• 56:25
  meeting about the book or do I wait till the evening and meet
• 56:29
  them and go to the event that there are?
• 56:31
  I don't really know what I'm sorry.
• 56:32
  I took a half day, but it's exhausting and it's not
• 56:37
  something that everyone is going to understand, you can make it
• 56:40
  work. But there's, there's sacrifices
• 56:43
  that have to be made. I think this makes me even more
• 56:46
  appreciative that you agreed to do the show today.
• 56:48
  Thank you so much. Interesting some way by me.
• 56:53
  Good morning. It's not I'm not trying to more
• 56:55
  know my except that I've been incredibly lucky to do what I've
• 56:58
  like there's a lot of people who write books and work just as
• 57:01
  hard as me. And those books might not get
• 57:03
  out there. I'm very, very lucky that my
• 57:05
  books, that see the light of day.
• 57:07
  But, you know, I think any but can see the light of day it may
• 57:10
  not. It may just not be the time for
• 57:12
  it. I think every book, every song,
• 57:15
  you know, there's things that You know, like there's even like
• 57:21
  there's some fantastic stuff on Netflix right now, for example,
• 57:24
  and like, you know, for example, I think I believe it was squared
• 57:27
  game that came out last year and that was on a computer for about
• 57:29
  a decade before it actually got anywhere.
• 57:32
  I was like that and it was it was hugely successful with the
• 57:34
  guy. I think he saw that don't quote
• 57:36
  me on this because I don't worry about it at the time, but I
• 57:38
  believe he sold the film rights to two squared game for the
• 57:43
  equivalent of a Macbook because his computer was broken and in
• 57:47
  need New one. So when they've been taking that
• 57:50
  much money for it, for something, I ended up being like
• 57:52
  a think, it was number one around the world.
• 57:54
  People were willing to watching. It was crazy and I think it was
• 57:56
  yeah much and Korean and English like that was how popular it
• 57:59
  was. And the guy who wrote it, he
• 58:01
  wrote a long time ago, I believe it was like a bit 10 years that
• 58:05
  it was just sitting there. This is why you should never go
• 58:07
  give up on your dreams. Just never just do it.
• 58:11
  Just do it people. There's my, how old you are, do
• 58:13
  it. What's the best advice you've
• 58:16
  ever received? Be authentic.
• 58:21
  Hmm. I don't try to be anything or
• 58:22
  not if you try and do something that's portable creatively.
• 58:26
  If you try and do something that's popular, it's almost
• 58:29
  certainly not going to be popular.
• 58:31
  And if you try and mold yourself to what other and it's hard,
• 58:36
  don't get me wrong. Like my life would have been
• 58:38
  easier if I'd chosen not to do what I'm doing.
• 58:41
  Like my life would be easier if I to even that even from a
• 58:43
  rating point of view and the subjects that I deal with and
• 58:46
  the The causes that I Champion. It would have been easier to not
• 58:51
  do what I've had to do. Like, it's been, it's been a
• 58:54
  hard road to serve to travel the, the hard, left Road, and,
• 58:59
  you know, you lose friends and stuff like that.
• 59:01
  But you sort of expect that those people weren't for you.
• 59:04
  Long term, doesn't make them bad people but, you know, just be a
• 59:08
  Fanta can sort of accept that, that authenticity might come
• 59:11
  across, but it may also pay off in the end.
• 59:13
  Like I certainly if you told me in like 20:19 like the iOS have
• 59:19
  two books are in 2021. I'll be like, what?
• 59:22
  Like it was just not on the cards.
• 59:25
  Like, as far as I didn't even know this time last year, mommy,
• 59:28
  he came out and mommy had done fairly well.
• 59:30
  It was getting good reviews and stuff, but you told me that I
• 59:33
  would have to out, I'd have been like, what, how, how is that
• 59:35
  going to happen but you just don't know where opportunities
• 59:38
  are going to come from. I would also say rely on the
• 59:40
  kindness of strangers because some of the most amazing
• 59:42
  opportunities I've had in my life of being from someone who's
• 59:45
  been a bigger. Fish than I'll ever be turning
• 59:48
  around and showed me at any better kindness and it really
• 59:50
  does go a long way. Oh, that's very profound.
• 59:55
  So yeah this they take it of it. I I've said this a million
• 59:59
  times. I'm sure my audience get sick of
• 1:00:01
  me saying this now but I love doing the show and I love
• 1:00:05
  speaking to people such as yourself and hearing people's
• 1:00:07
  stories and their life lessons and everything.
• 1:00:09
  And it's continues to inspire me.
• 1:00:11
  And I just you know, if I remember when I first started
• 1:00:14
  this show I didn't really have an exact plan of what it was
• 1:00:18
  going to be and I sort of figure it out as I went along and I
• 1:00:21
  think Sure. Yeah, you know, I would love to
• 1:00:25
  get it to do this properly and, you know, have the studio have
• 1:00:28
  everything, right? But probably right now, I've
• 1:00:32
  been doing the show for two years, it's like over 180
• 1:00:36
  episodes or something. And every time I do this, I look
• 1:00:40
  forward to doing it every single time, and I look forward to the
• 1:00:43
  process, you know, everything. And it's because of things like
• 1:00:48
  that. And it's and it's amazing like
• 1:00:49
  meeting someone like yourself where we've got like similar.
• 1:00:52
  Has difficulty different backgrounds, completely
• 1:00:54
  different lives. But like similar things like
• 1:00:57
  this idea of authenticity. Like I found it very important
• 1:01:01
  when I started doing stuff online.
• 1:01:03
  A few years back because I didn't really know how to be
• 1:01:06
  that, what to do, how to present myself.
• 1:01:08
  And then I was just like okay I'll just be me and see what
• 1:01:12
  happens and yeah I suppose to some extent you're always
• 1:01:15
  performing somewhat Life's a play.
• 1:01:17
  You know, you're trying to kind of but There's something in
• 1:01:21
  being true to yourself. I think that putting on a
• 1:01:26
  character just doesn't allow you to do.
• 1:01:29
  You know it's like you if you're not true to yourself it just
• 1:01:34
  comes back to bite you of think. Generally speaking you should
• 1:01:38
  never do something that's like for the wrong reasons.
• 1:01:41
  Are trying like I've seen so many creators try and mimic
• 1:01:46
  other creators and it's so obvious than that.
• 1:01:48
  That's what they're trying to do.
• 1:01:49
  And it's like, Ignore, you would be much better if you stop doing
• 1:01:52
  this. Because I've done this myself,
• 1:01:53
  like, when I started writing, I was trying to be everyone apart
• 1:01:56
  from myself is not like I'm not talking from her point of view
• 1:01:59
  of not having the experience of done it.
• 1:02:01
  I did it and it didn't work out in the moment that I started
• 1:02:04
  actually being a fan. Take to the stories that I knew
• 1:02:07
  I got somewhere. It was literally like a complete
• 1:02:10
  sweatshirt or almost immediately from from that.
• 1:02:12
  And it says it's difficult, they don't get me wrong, it's
• 1:02:16
  brittle, it's difficult. Like it's a hard world that
• 1:02:20
  we're living and like, it's hard to make money.
• 1:02:23
  It's hard to survive. Like right now, like food is
• 1:02:26
  extortion. It like I have a decent job and
• 1:02:29
  I'm just like, I mean, don't drink blue spark from Tesco
• 1:02:33
  because it's not a good idea, really?
• 1:02:35
  Let me do just by right bill, by proper red Bill, don't buy the
• 1:02:37
  cheap crap because it's going to like, why are you to the men?
• 1:02:41
  So, what I've learned don't save the two cones.
• 1:02:43
  Just spend the two pounds to spend the money, guys.
• 1:02:48
  What's the biggest life lesson you've learned so far?
• 1:02:57
  I guess don't trust people until the very end your trust.
• 1:03:00
  And even if they have an injury or trust, always be reviewing
• 1:03:04
  whether or not they're trustworthy.
• 1:03:06
  I think, I think it's important too.
• 1:03:11
  Not take people on their words and take them on what they show
• 1:03:14
  you. And it was like so cliched but
• 1:03:15
  like having people can put on a face very easily and people
• 1:03:19
  change as well as people. I've known who at one point in
• 1:03:23
  our lives we were very very aligned and then and then life
• 1:03:26
  happened and we've no longer been aligned.
• 1:03:29
  So it's important to have that process of review but just sort
• 1:03:31
  of accept that, you know, but also appreciate people, I think
• 1:03:35
  as well on that note of like trusting bowls or trusting that,
• 1:03:39
  you know, there's some people that you'll meet her Who you may
• 1:03:41
  not appreciate the time. But then, like 12 years later,
• 1:03:44
  I'll be like flipping. Heck, you were like the real MVP
• 1:03:47
  and I maybe didn't appreciate that entirely it's time, but I
• 1:03:51
  guess that's also like a an age thing from like at least for me
• 1:03:56
  anyway, like I mean, the older, I get the when I was in my early
• 1:04:00
  20s if it, when I was a teenager I was my most confident which is
• 1:04:04
  bizarre for literally no reason because I guess all teenagers
• 1:04:06
  are confident cause you don't know anything about life and
• 1:04:09
  then you get older and you like one Thing.
• 1:04:12
  Yeah, yeah. I think, I think just be careful
• 1:04:15
  who you trust, be careful, what you invest your energy and
• 1:04:19
  because you're not going to get that feedback and like that
• 1:04:22
  importance of of it authenticity.
• 1:04:25
  Like I think it's so valuable to know who you are.
• 1:04:28
  I think you can deal with life a lot better.
• 1:04:30
  Even if things are absolutely horrendous, if you know who you
• 1:04:34
  are, you can you can cope with it more.
• 1:04:36
  If you don't know, I wouldn't like to live my life.
• 1:04:38
  Not knowing who I was or getting my validation from other people
• 1:04:44
  and quite good at giving it to not necessarily giving it to
• 1:04:46
  myself, but I'm good at finding it through other outlets, and
• 1:04:49
  even if it's something as simple as an animal, I'm still doing
• 1:04:54
  something worthwhile. It's not relying on other
• 1:04:56
  people. I don't think it's a good idea
• 1:04:58
  to be heavily relying on other people, for whether it's
• 1:05:01
  entertainment or love or affection, it's important, and
• 1:05:05
  it's great when you have those things.
• 1:05:07
  But if you're completely relying on other people for those
• 1:05:09
  things, it's not hot. Going to end well, I don't
• 1:05:11
  think. Yeah.
• 1:05:13
  No, I completely agree with you. I've been thinking about this a
• 1:05:15
  lot lately, especially in the last couple of years trying to
• 1:05:19
  understand myself, who I am, you know, I don't get me wrong, I
• 1:05:22
  adore the company of others, but most of the time, I find myself
• 1:05:25
  on my own and I feel like sometimes I used to punish
• 1:05:29
  myself for that and think like, oh, maybe there's something
• 1:05:31
  wrong with me and it's like, there's nothing wrong with me.
• 1:05:33
  It's just that. I am a Solitude type of person.
• 1:05:38
  And I didn't ever think I would be like that and it's ironic.
• 1:05:43
  Like, I remember because my mom is like that and we're very
• 1:05:48
  different people, but when it comes to that, that's something
• 1:05:51
  I can relate to her on and I never forget because my mom is a
• 1:05:54
  type of person like she'd sit there, reading a book, a history
• 1:05:58
  vehicle, whatever literature we have a share of history and art
• 1:06:02
  and culture, whatever. Like that's what we bonded on
• 1:06:05
  and I remember one time I probably was About 14, 15 years
• 1:06:09
  old. I standing in the doorway and
• 1:06:10
  she's sitting there reading her book and I'm bear going out to
• 1:06:14
  see friends or something and she's just sitting there in the
• 1:06:16
  book and I might aren't you gonna go out and you get to do
• 1:06:19
  anything and she's like, I'm very happy just doing this and
• 1:06:22
  you know, and I'm like okay I'm like but you know I'm gonna go
• 1:06:26
  see all these people like, you know, and she's like I guarantee
• 1:06:29
  one day. You'll be exactly like me and
• 1:06:31
  I'm like, what? No never.
• 1:06:33
  I never be like that. She's like you.
• 1:06:34
  Wait, you watch and then lo and behold.
• 1:06:38
  As I get older, I find that being in your own company with
• 1:06:42
  an important caveat, to this being happy in your own company
• 1:06:46
  and comfortable with your own company is key.
• 1:06:50
  And so then company becomes like a Optional I guess but you know
• 1:06:56
  as you put it like rely on other people for your own happiness
• 1:06:59
  and joy in life because I also think that money is comes and
• 1:07:06
  goes, there was a women who am I was coming back to London?
• 1:07:08
  I hadn't traveled a, we hadn't left the key in like, with date.
• 1:07:11
  With what I'd be on a plane to travel to a funeral because it
• 1:07:14
  was cool, the but I hadn't left the UK.
• 1:07:16
  Then I was coming back to the UK and my phone wouldn't work on
• 1:07:19
  the plane. I know I was really unwell
• 1:07:21
  because I hadn't traveled in a long time.
• 1:07:23
  So my head hurt. art and this woman like just paid for my
• 1:07:25
  stuff, she was about my age and then we started chatting and
• 1:07:28
  she's like, I don't worry, it's like a couple of quid and she's
• 1:07:30
  like, money comes and goes and she was like, it's so true like
• 1:07:33
  it, just, it's not, I've seen so many people like Chase money and
• 1:07:39
  like, corporate jobs and be like, Oh, I'm marrying such and
• 1:07:42
  such and always like, okay, you make you might be earning that
• 1:07:45
  money. But you know when you're all
• 1:07:47
  does that really, are you going to be happy?
• 1:07:50
  That all you ever chased was money and material things?
• 1:07:54
  Like for some people that does make them happy but you know,
• 1:07:58
  I've known a lot of people have been incredibly successful in
• 1:08:01
  business and stuff like that, and a lot of the time they've
• 1:08:03
  actually stepped back from it and they've sort of gone and
• 1:08:06
  traveled and done other things like their time.
• 1:08:08
  Like I think money isn't fulfilling and there is like
• 1:08:12
  these like like high-powered like corporate jobs and and
• 1:08:16
  chasing it and stuff. And even in.
• 1:08:19
  Yeah, I just like, I think, like, whether you're like, if,
• 1:08:21
  maybe you're an artist and you're helping people, maybe
• 1:08:23
  your I just don't know about these this like, We live in such
• 1:08:28
  a consumer Society reference so fast-paced and I think money is
• 1:08:32
  just it's worthless. Really?
• 1:08:35
  Because? Ironically enough, it's
• 1:08:38
  brilliant. Yeah.
• 1:08:39
  See ultimate irony in a sense. I mean, because I think people
• 1:08:41
  often forget because they're too caught up in the value of it,
• 1:08:45
  what it can, what it can give to you like for me?
• 1:08:48
  Yeah, I mean like that I'll never get like, I couldn't care
• 1:08:51
  less like if I had the money right now to do the things that
• 1:08:54
  I wanted to do, I would just be investing in Jack's traveling,
• 1:08:58
  the world doing so many different things.
• 1:09:00
  Like I think about, when I look at money, I think it's
• 1:09:03
  opportunity. It's you can do this, it can do
• 1:09:05
  that. Like when I look at people and
• 1:09:09
  again this is not a criticism. I'm just it's an observation.
• 1:09:13
  People will spend all their money on.
• 1:09:15
  I don't know the latest Balenciaga stuff or whatever and
• 1:09:17
  it's like hundreds of thousands of thousands and I just don't
• 1:09:21
  get it. Like when it's explained to me
• 1:09:23
  that, oh, it's fashion though, it's stay here.
• 1:09:25
  So, it's this. It's that it's like, Do I look
• 1:09:28
  at it very differently. I'm like, if I was walking down
• 1:09:29
  the street dressed in that, firstly, I mean, you're going to
• 1:09:34
  get dropped, that's number one. Number two, who care who is it
• 1:09:39
  for? I don't get it, is it just to go
• 1:09:41
  to parties and then everyone Compares me, like, oh look, I've
• 1:09:44
  got this, I've got that, like, I don't know, I guess it's just a
• 1:09:47
  test certain type of person. It's different mindsets,
• 1:09:50
  different people, but I mean, there's nothing wrong with,
• 1:09:52
  like, nice things, I just should bring wealth, and certainly like
• 1:09:57
  bragging. But I think like, I've known
• 1:09:59
  some people in my life would be incredibly rich in to be
• 1:10:01
  incredibly like humble and nice about it.
• 1:10:03
  But I also think that it causes a lot of corruption in terms of
• 1:10:06
  like some people don't understand that, not everyone is
• 1:10:08
  going to have the opportunities you have or not, you know,
• 1:10:10
  everyone's going to necessarily write except generational wealth
• 1:10:14
  like some people I know like there was a girl.
• 1:10:17
  I no longer take anything to do with and then you know she was
• 1:10:21
  very much of the opinion that like it was her father's job to
• 1:10:24
  look after her for the rest of her life until she got a
• 1:10:27
  husband. And it was like toxic because
• 1:10:31
  it's like, it's like, okay cool. But then but then this idea of
• 1:10:35
  like couldn't understand that other people like have to make
• 1:10:38
  their way in the world and have to like and when I first was in
• 1:10:42
  my early twenties like I like struggled and like I don't think
• 1:10:45
  I even wanted to admit to myself that I was struggling because I
• 1:10:50
  I don't want to like admit that I didn't have like I would
• 1:10:52
  borrow like from my parents I hated and I paid them back every
• 1:10:56
  time but I don't like this idea of being relying on other
• 1:10:58
  people. Like if I ever have to and I'm
• 1:11:01
  sure they'll be times where I'll have to borrow again or whatever
• 1:11:03
  but you know, I try and be sensible known save and stuff
• 1:11:06
  like that. But like for example, when I was
• 1:11:07
  in my early 20s, I earned enough to live in London to exist in
• 1:11:11
  London but when something went wrong like I had to get quite a
• 1:11:14
  lot of dental work done, I didn't have the money for it and
• 1:11:17
  like the dentist I remember she said something really Horrible
• 1:11:20
  to me, she was like, you know, if this gets any worse, it's
• 1:11:22
  like a cost of like, heart surgery, you know, to get it
• 1:11:25
  fixed and stuff. If you go private, Danny Chase
• 1:11:27
  won't do it. And it was just the way she said
• 1:11:29
  it. And I was like, where the heck
• 1:11:31
  do you think I'm getting this money from?
• 1:11:33
  Yeah, I don't have it and and, you know, and I don't think, I
• 1:11:37
  think people who are wealthy, don't understand that struggle
• 1:11:41
  and they certainly and then it gets to the point.
• 1:11:43
  I think, when people do start to earn a bit more money that it
• 1:11:46
  becomes like bragging rights, like someone Who again, I
• 1:11:52
  reasons why I never replied to this person, but he'd like
• 1:11:54
  emailed me earlier, and not that long ago, it had sort of said,
• 1:11:58
  oh yeah, I have a job. And it's to the tune of x amount
• 1:12:00
  of pounds and I'm like, Doing a clap on the back.
• 1:12:04
  Yeah, like what why do I care like?
• 1:12:06
  Well, I do I hear about your salary like and I know it was
• 1:12:09
  done to sort of say, hey I'm making a lot more money than,
• 1:12:13
  you know, it wasn't even that much more.
• 1:12:14
  I was like, right, kill me. Well done.
• 1:12:16
  Congratulations. You sold your soul to the devil
• 1:12:18
  for a more money? Cool.
• 1:12:20
  Enjoy, like it was just like, it's not, it could it, maybe I
• 1:12:26
  hope it made them happy, like maybe it did, but I don't, I
• 1:12:31
  felt that money comes out cost. And even, even even me, like, I
• 1:12:35
  get tired all the time. Like I, like in order to do I'm
• 1:12:38
  doing, like, I could arguably have a, I don't know if I could
• 1:12:41
  have an easier job to be honest, like I think everything's just
• 1:12:43
  so expensive. Yeah.
• 1:12:46
  Like like owning a house is just like, unless you accept huge
• 1:12:50
  amounts of generational, wealth, like realistically, how are you
• 1:12:53
  supposed to do it unless you work in corporate?
• 1:12:56
  I don't know how your men like because even in Aden Braddock
• 1:12:59
  houses, is it, is it expensive to live in Denver knows?
• 1:13:02
  I still haven't. London.
• 1:13:03
  Wow yeah it's really change the laws that yeah yeah, I mean, I
• 1:13:08
  know Manchester's expensive as well actually get in the yeah
• 1:13:11
  it's getting kind of getting like to the savings or of the
• 1:13:14
  rich-poor Gap is getting bigger, which I think I guess is why
• 1:13:17
  it's important to sort of see. I guess it's really not going to
• 1:13:22
  make you happy. You can be totally measurable in
• 1:13:24
  yourself and being like the nicest hotel in the world, it's
• 1:13:27
  not going to be happy. As we draw things to a close
• 1:13:31
  today, do you have any upcoming projects or some final thoughts
• 1:13:34
  that you'd like to share with our listeners for a books called
• 1:13:38
  Kathy? Get your dancing shoes on and
• 1:13:40
  I'm going to go back to it at the end of the year but not
• 1:13:44
  specifically. Like as I'm going to have maybe
• 1:13:45
  like few hours to work on it this year.
• 1:13:49
  I'm going to finish it next year and hopefully it will see the
• 1:13:53
  light of day sometime, in 2024, not entirely sure.
• 1:13:57
  It could be before After that it won't be it won't be next year.
• 1:14:01
  I've there's no way it's going to be next year because I have I
• 1:14:05
  cannot do this to myself. I need to be kinder to myself
• 1:14:08
  and as much as people can read a book in a couple of weeks, I
• 1:14:11
  certainly can't write one that correctly and yeah, going to
• 1:14:14
  have that. That's like my next big project.
• 1:14:18
  I'm going to be doing more Scots language stuff over the next
• 1:14:21
  year. So, just doing more of the same
• 1:14:22
  really would like to be hopefully doing an audio book if
• 1:14:25
  not for one of my books for both of them that that's most likely.
• 1:14:29
  Lee was, well, I'll get to do at some point next year, which
• 1:14:32
  should be fun and yeah, it just keeping up.
• 1:14:35
  I just want to do more of the same, basically bless you.
• 1:14:39
  I hope it goes well and I best of luck with your podcast and
• 1:14:42
  your music. Thank you so much.
• 1:14:44
  Yeah. I just, this has been a real
• 1:14:47
  inspiration of one for me personally because obviously I
• 1:14:50
  put to you before about it, but for my listeners, they'll know
• 1:14:52
  that I've sort of juggling many different things at the moment
• 1:14:55
  trying to desperately pursue those goals.
• 1:14:58
  And it's Great to hear someone in a similar situation that's
• 1:15:02
  making it work for them and hopefully, you know, I really
• 1:15:06
  hope it works out for you to and and hey, that I mean it I mean
• 1:15:08
  it is your on to your third book and it's getting a lot of
• 1:15:11
  traction and who knows where this could go, you know?
• 1:15:15
  No, I think anything's possible. It's just the case of and I
• 1:15:19
  guess don't underestimate the power of that like half an hour
• 1:15:21
  doing something that you like or a bigger dream can can do.
• 1:15:25
  Even if you're not necessarily doing what you want to do all
• 1:15:27
  the time, like half an hour makes a difference.
• 1:15:29
  Still pain. Absolutely.
• 1:15:32
  Thank you so much for for being on the show.
• 1:15:34
  Thank you for your time. I appreciate you, man.
• 1:15:37
  Thanks, awfully. No, it's brilliant.
• 1:15:40
  Brilliant. Thank you so much and to the
• 1:15:42
  listeners of the Christian re podcast.
• 1:15:44
  I hope you enjoyed Today's Show. Be safe.
• 1:15:46
  Be well, and I'll see you in the next one.