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Dr. Franscisco Aboitiz – A History of Bodies, Brains, and Minds · Vox Novus with Victor Fuhrman

0:05
Speaker 1: Vox Novus, the New Voice, Vox Novus, the New Dimension,
0:14
Speaker 1: Vox Novus thought and movement leaders who will share from
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Speaker 1: their experience and offer tools to help us navigate our
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Speaker 1: rapidly changing world. My name is Victor Furman. Welcome to
0:28
Speaker 1: Vox Novus, the New Voice. What is consciousness and how
0:37
Speaker 1: did it emerge? How has our understanding of consciousness changed
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Speaker 1: over the years, and is there evidence of consciousness non locality?
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Speaker 1: My guest this week on Vox Novus, Doctor Francisco Abodes
0:53
Speaker 1: is the director of the Interdisciplinary Center for Neuroscience and
0:57
Speaker 1: Professor of Psychiatry at the Antifica Universidad Katolica de Chile.
1:04
Speaker 1: His research includes the evolution of the brain and cognition
1:08
Speaker 1: and the neurocognitive underpinnings of conditions such as ADHD, autism,
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Speaker 1: multiple sclerosis, and epilepsy. He joins me this week to
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Speaker 1: share his research and new book, A History of Bodies,
1:23
Speaker 1: Brains and Minds, The Evolution of Life and Consciousness. Please
1:28
Speaker 1: join me in welcoming to Vox Novus, doctor Francisco Aboites.
1:34
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Victor for this invitation.
1:37
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us and sharing your study, your
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Speaker 1: research and all of your wonderful work. Please share with
1:42
Speaker 1: our listeners your path and what inspired your career in
1:47
Speaker 1: neuroscience and the study of consciousness.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you very much for this question. Is actually
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Speaker 2: my latest book is pretty autobiographical in this sense. I
2:01
Speaker 2: started just as as a kid, just just I was
2:05
Speaker 2: just wondered by about the the how could life be?
2:10
Speaker 2: You know? And I was really really interested in animals
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Speaker 2: and plants and in how life could be, you know,
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Speaker 2: the way it is. And then I then then I
2:23
Speaker 2: it passed through me in a class in a high
2:28
Speaker 2: school work we had to do, I started reading about
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Speaker 2: Charles Darwin, and I found that illuminating, you know, a
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Speaker 2: very simple theory that could explain the whole diversity of life.
2:41
Speaker 2: Really really blew my head. And uh, from then on,
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Speaker 2: I just decided to go into biology. My family was really,
2:51
Speaker 2: you know, uh hesitant about this because you know, they
2:55
Speaker 2: wanted to be they wanted me to be a doctor,
2:58
Speaker 2: a medical doctor. But but when anyhow, I ended up
3:01
Speaker 2: studying biology. And when I studied biology, I began to
3:06
Speaker 2: wonder about what mind is. Well it's not that I
3:10
Speaker 2: understand what life is, but this this new question what
3:15
Speaker 2: mind is? What? What what is consciousness came out as
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Speaker 2: a very very important question, and it's of course very
3:24
Speaker 2: related to what life is, but it's a different level
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Speaker 2: of of of of understanding.
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Speaker 1: Prior to your latest book, A History of Bodies, Brains
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Speaker 1: and Minds, The Evolution of Life and Consciousness, you authored
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Speaker 1: A Brain for Speech and A View from Evolutionary Neuroanatomy.
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Speaker 1: What inspired those books and what do you share with
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Speaker 1: readers in them?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the first book, A Brain for Speech, actually
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Speaker 2: it's the same book, A Brain for Speech. I View
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Speaker 2: from Evolutionary in ner Anatomy is related to to a
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Speaker 2: longstanding uh question I have had is which is how
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Speaker 2: did how are we the only animals who can speak?
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Speaker 2: What happened in evolution that we acquired language? Actually, linguists,
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Speaker 2: usually traditional linguists usually think, you know, that language is
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Speaker 2: something totally different from biology. Many linguists think like this,
4:29
Speaker 2: or used to think like this. So I was really,
4:34
Speaker 2: you know, motivated to know how language evolved through the
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Speaker 2: rules of natural selection, And the first book has to
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Speaker 2: do with this, to put a context of historical biology
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Speaker 2: about language, about how we you know, almost appiens or
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Speaker 2: our ancestors from orectors or whatever, you know, became able
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Speaker 2: to communicate with each other with symbols that making reference
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Speaker 2: to things, et cetera. So to me, it actually the
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Speaker 2: origin of language is one of the one of the
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Speaker 2: great questions in biology, just like the origin of mind,
5:21
Speaker 2: just like the origin of life.
5:23
Speaker 1: What inspired your new book, A History of Bodies, Brains
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Speaker 1: and minds, the evolution of life and consciousness?
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Speaker 2: Actually this is this is the the result. Actually, I
5:38
Speaker 2: attempted to make a synthesis of all my work and
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Speaker 2: all my ideas about about the evolution of life in
5:46
Speaker 2: this planet. I have been working on this for a
5:51
Speaker 2: long time. I studied the the the brains of of reptiles,
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Speaker 2: of mammals, of humans, and my, my, my, my main
6:04
Speaker 2: question is how is the process of evolution governing this
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Speaker 2: increasing complexity in brain structure and behavior. And what I
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Speaker 2: found in incredible is that the Winnian the Winian notion
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Speaker 2: of natural selection can account for this, which is probably
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Speaker 2: the most the most challenging of all questions in structural biology.
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Speaker 2: In the biology of structure. Structural biology I mean by
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Speaker 2: by the anatomy, the physiology, et cetera. The concept of
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Speaker 2: mind to me is something else but but but regarding biology, itself.
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Speaker 2: M hm. Evolution accounts for the aston astondingly complexity of
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Speaker 2: our brain. Mm hm.
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Speaker 1: How do you personally define consciousness?
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Speaker 2: There are so many different definitions of consciousness, and that's
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Speaker 2: that's the main problem with its study. H I think
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Speaker 2: that it depends so much on how you do you
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Speaker 2: understand what consciousness is, on the explanations that that that
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Speaker 2: that you will make. H to me, there's there's an
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Speaker 2: issue about consciousness that is that is very difficult or
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Speaker 2: impossible to solve. Which is the the qualitative subjective experience
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Speaker 2: of us being conscious? I think it's it's we We
7:52
Speaker 2: we cannot grasp this. The only the only people who
7:56
Speaker 2: can grasp this sensation is the people who is living
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Speaker 2: it also, I mean ourselves. I am fully conscious that
8:05
Speaker 2: I'm conscious, but I I am really extending this my
8:16
Speaker 2: consciousness into other people. I'm not able to see the
8:20
Speaker 2: consciousness of other people. And that is a problem to
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Speaker 2: study it because I'm Consciousness is not an observable object
8:30
Speaker 2: for scientists, only for one person, which is the one
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Speaker 2: who lives it. I don't know if I made myself clear, yes.
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Speaker 1: You did, but there's no way of someone using, for example,
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Speaker 1: neuro tools to track consciousness. There's no way of doing
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Speaker 1: that at all.
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Speaker 2: What you can have is what is called naral correlates
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Speaker 2: to consciousness, which is, I have this physiological activity and
9:03
Speaker 2: this fits with this subjective experience of some people. You know, yes,
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Speaker 2: But how this psisiological activity becomes a subjective a subjective
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Speaker 2: experience is not explained.
9:19
Speaker 1: Okay, so seeing the seeing the needles.
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Speaker 2: So it's it's like two realms of phenomenology, you.
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Speaker 1: Know, understood, understood. What is the earliest evidence for consciousness
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Speaker 1: in the evolution of life?
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Speaker 2: Oh, that's that's probably the hardest question of all, you know. Uh,
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Speaker 2: there's a word that has been very used these days,
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Speaker 2: which is sentienced, which is the ability to the capacity
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Speaker 2: to feel, which is very closely related to my idea
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Speaker 2: of this deep consciousness subjective consciousness. And which animals are
10:04
Speaker 2: in fact sentient, it's a big question. I am pretty
10:07
Speaker 2: sure my dog and my cat are sentient, but this
10:11
Speaker 2: is something that I project into them. H I am
10:15
Speaker 2: not positive of that. I am positive that, for example,
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Speaker 2: you are conscious and my kids are conscious because we
10:24
Speaker 2: talk and and and we are we have evolved to
10:29
Speaker 2: make these assumptions. But with animals it's different, and the
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Speaker 2: lower you go in the scale, the more difficult becomes
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Speaker 2: to assert that the animal is or not conscious. Some
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Speaker 2: people now say that even plants are conscious. Some people
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Speaker 2: claim that that that cells are conscious. Some people even
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Speaker 2: say that that consciousness is related to the uncertainty principle.
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Speaker 2: I mean to to quantum mechanics, the to the collapse
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Speaker 2: of the wave function h when the observer alter the
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Speaker 2: the the the wave function. Actually, I think the the
11:14
Speaker 2: the diversity of ideas about this, about the the when
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Speaker 2: does consciousness appear is a sign of the difficulty of
11:24
Speaker 2: the problem. We have no idea, so to speak, you know,
11:28
Speaker 2: we we don't have a notion about when a subjective
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Speaker 2: experience appears in nature.
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Speaker 1: So, for example, anthropologists looking at ancient chromagnut and Homo sapiens,
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Speaker 1: can they determine at what point drawing and language were
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Speaker 1: implied replied, and then determine the origin of consciousness in
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Speaker 1: human beings.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean in in a way
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Speaker 2: that's correct. If if if if, if, if you have
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Speaker 2: language I have, I have good reason to suppose that
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Speaker 2: you are conscious. But you see, now we have artificial
12:13
Speaker 2: intelligence that are pretty good at language and and uh,
12:17
Speaker 2: and personally, I don't think they are really conscious. Uh,
12:21
Speaker 2: some people do think they are conscious. I don't think so.
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Speaker 2: But the problem is a language by itself. It's not
12:29
Speaker 2: it's not proof of consciousness. And yeah, probably our our
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Speaker 2: our relatives, the Neanderthals, and they did have a degree
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Speaker 2: of consciousness. I would tend to think that way. But
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Speaker 2: the point is that we cannot prove that.
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Speaker 1: What are the leading theories of consciousness and where do
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Speaker 1: they fall short.
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Speaker 2: That? I think there are two main leading theories of consciousness.
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Speaker 2: When the integrated information theory, which asserts that consciousness is
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Speaker 2: a very mathematical theory, asserts that consciousness results from uh,
13:18
Speaker 2: I'm going to say, it's simple from very very high complexity,
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Speaker 2: and it's a matter of complexity and where actually the
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Speaker 2: system is so complex that it depends totally on its
13:35
Speaker 2: on the dynamicals of its own part. It's like a
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Speaker 2: closed system. I mean, this is an interesting theory to
13:44
Speaker 2: think about it. But then again, you cannot prove this,
13:49
Speaker 2: you know, you cannot prove you can say, well, uh, yeah,
13:53
Speaker 2: I mean we do have this level of consciousness, so
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Speaker 2: this system should be conscious. For example, the I T
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Speaker 2: the integrated information theory claims that that computers cannot be
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Speaker 2: conscious because they lack the sufficient complexity. Okay hm. But
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Speaker 2: then again, like I said, if you have something that conscious,
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Speaker 2: how can you prove that it is in fact conscious
14:22
Speaker 2: or you just assume it is conscious Because it is complex,
14:28
Speaker 2: you cannot demonstrate its consciousness. And the other theory is
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Speaker 2: the global workspace theory, which actually this theory refers more
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Speaker 2: to the cognitive aspects of consciousness, like our capacity to plan,
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Speaker 2: to to make autobiographical memory, to to think about ourselves,
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Speaker 2: to see the world as a unified h system, et cetera.
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Speaker 2: But this theory is more related to cognition than than
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Speaker 2: to the real deep aspects of subjective consciousness. In my way, m.
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Speaker 1: Our emotions evidence of consciousness.
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Speaker 2: The subjective the subjective experience of emotions. Yes, in my view, yes,
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Speaker 2: they are related to to to sentence. Uh, the an emotion.
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Speaker 2: You can you can have see a physiological reaction that
15:40
Speaker 2: you can attribute to an emotion. M hmm. This physiological
15:45
Speaker 2: reaction is about the same as the neurophysiological correlate of
15:55
Speaker 2: of me seeing the color red. For example, I mean
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Speaker 2: I can, I can I can look at the brain
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Speaker 2: and see when I see red, I mean this this,
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Speaker 2: this part of the brain will act be active. So
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Speaker 2: on huh, Well, emotions are the same. There's a physiological
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Speaker 2: process that we we we correlate this physiological cross process
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Speaker 2: with a subjective experience of that is an emotion. H
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Speaker 2: but but but it's again we can't. We'll come again
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Speaker 2: to the same question. It is not the same the
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Speaker 2: the the the the physical process than the subjective experience.
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Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm not experienced in life and I touch
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Speaker 1: something that's hot and I burn myself. I withdraw my
16:45
Speaker 1: hand and I'm in pain, and I recognize that I'm
16:49
Speaker 1: never going to do that again because by touching that
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Speaker 1: I'm going to get burned. Is that a form of
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Speaker 1: learning consciousness?
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Speaker 2: I mean in a way. Yeah. But but see you
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Speaker 2: can see that that that that snail can do this too, mhm,
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Speaker 2: and and that probably a cell does it. Actually, there's
17:11
Speaker 2: there's a recent article that shows that health show cells
17:14
Speaker 2: show the basic not neurance cells, just cells show the
17:19
Speaker 2: basic learning capacities, as as as brain is like habituation
17:27
Speaker 2: for example, so that your ability to learn doesn't necessarily
17:33
Speaker 2: imply again that you're conscious.
17:37
Speaker 1: There are some arguments as to whether newborn infants have
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Speaker 1: consciousness or does it developed later on in them. What's
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Speaker 1: your experience with that?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that's that's that's that's another another important question.
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Speaker 2: Some viewers think that consciousness is acquired in the one. Actually,
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Speaker 2: the integrated information theory considers that the brain becomes sufficiently
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Speaker 2: complex inside could becoming in sufficiently complex inside the one
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Speaker 2: before birth, so there could be consciousness even without sensory input.
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Speaker 2: That's another point of interests of the integrated information theory.
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Speaker 2: This theory does not require sensory input for consciousness to exist. Personally,
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Speaker 2: I do think it requires and I think babies this
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Speaker 2: is this is my view and could be totally wrong,
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Speaker 2: but I think babies slowly acquire consciousness as they interact
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Speaker 2: with the environment.
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Speaker 1: That's I think that's an important question, the question of
18:51
Speaker 1: interacting with environment, because all life interacts with its environment. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: does all life? You talked about some people thinking that
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Speaker 1: single cellular organisms have a form of consciousness. Is consciousness
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Speaker 1: something that's available to all forms of life?
19:08
Speaker 2: Ah? Well, I mean in principle yes, but I think
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Speaker 2: that in order to have sentence you need a level
19:18
Speaker 2: of complexity. But in principle, you're right. That's the notion
19:24
Speaker 2: of the pan consciousness, that everything you know, every living
19:27
Speaker 2: being disconscious, you know, and some some some people even
19:31
Speaker 2: say that that even matter is consciousness conscious. I would
19:35
Speaker 2: say that there is some point in which subjective experience
19:41
Speaker 2: appear in the scale of evolution, but I am not
19:45
Speaker 2: sure where that is, or in the scale or in
19:48
Speaker 2: the in the life of an individual. Mhm.
19:52
Speaker 1: There was a Japanese scientist who conducted experiments with water.
19:57
Speaker 1: Are you familiar with those with those experiments?
20:00
Speaker 2: No? No, just let me know.
20:01
Speaker 1: He did experiments with water. And when he spoke to
20:06
Speaker 1: the water with a nice voice, when he had good
20:10
Speaker 1: thoughts towards the water, when he did positive things around
20:13
Speaker 1: the water, the formation that he could see under a
20:17
Speaker 1: microscope of the individual atoms that make up the water
20:22
Speaker 1: had a beautiful pattern. And then when he was negative,
20:27
Speaker 1: they changed the pattern completely and they looked painful, actually,
20:31
Speaker 1: some of the images that came out. And this was
20:33
Speaker 1: done with water and with ice. What do you think
20:35
Speaker 1: about it?
20:36
Speaker 2: I had no idea about this experiment, and I would
20:40
Speaker 2: have to see it, and I have I would have
20:42
Speaker 2: those to to to to read the work and and
20:45
Speaker 2: and and study that had I had no idea if
20:52
Speaker 2: if if these were were correct, if this was correct. Still,
20:57
Speaker 2: we don't know if this uh uh difference that you see,
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Speaker 2: this this effect that you see is the result of
21:06
Speaker 2: being conscious. I'm not I'm not sure that that you
21:10
Speaker 2: could infer this from this results.
21:14
Speaker 1: Well, I will find that information for you and I'll
21:16
Speaker 1: send it to you, sir, so you can refer to
21:18
Speaker 1: it in for opinion on that after our interview.
21:20
Speaker 2: That's interesting.
21:21
Speaker 1: My guest is doctor Francisco aboit Is. His book is
21:25
Speaker 1: called A History of Bodies, Brains and Minds, the Evolution
21:30
Speaker 1: of Life and Consciousness. Please share with our listeners where
21:33
Speaker 1: they can get your books and find out more about
21:35
Speaker 1: you and your work.
21:38
Speaker 2: Actually, you can follow me in in in Francisco. Avoid
21:42
Speaker 2: is that Instagram. That's my main page, and we published
21:46
Speaker 2: everything that that we do in there.
21:49
Speaker 1: And your books are available.
21:52
Speaker 2: My books are available in Amazon and uh in in
21:57
Speaker 2: any any electronic books. Actually, my second book is also
22:05
Speaker 2: available in mit Press store, and I think there's a
22:09
Speaker 2: discount rate.
22:11
Speaker 1: Wonderful And we'll be back with more after these words.
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Speaker 1: Back on Vox Novis, my guest this week is doctor
25:34
Speaker 1: Francisco Aboidis's book A History of Bodies, Brains and Minds,
25:40
Speaker 1: The Evolution of Life and Consciousness. Doctor Aboidis, what is
25:46
Speaker 1: the concept of pan psychism and how does it challenge
25:50
Speaker 1: our understanding of consciousness.
25:54
Speaker 2: Well, panpsychism is the notion that everything is conscious. It's
25:59
Speaker 2: not that just us and this is this This notion
26:03
Speaker 2: has come out because we we tend to I mean,
26:11
Speaker 2: first of all, we like Like I said before, we
26:13
Speaker 2: assume that others, other people is conscious because we speak
26:18
Speaker 2: with them, we share feelings, we share realities and everything.
26:24
Speaker 2: And then we assume that others are equally conscious as us.
26:29
Speaker 2: But then pets are also considered conscious in a way,
26:34
Speaker 2: you know, and other animals. There's people who think that
26:38
Speaker 2: that lizards are conscious, that fish are conscious, that octopuses
26:47
Speaker 2: are conscious, et cetera. When do we stop the line?
26:52
Speaker 2: Some people they say, there's just no stopping the line.
26:55
Speaker 2: Everybody is conscious. Consciousness is a property of matter. That's
26:59
Speaker 2: the most extreme understanding of pan consciousness, that consciousness, like energy,
27:06
Speaker 2: is a property of matter. The difference is how how
27:14
Speaker 2: developed these consciousnesses. And in complex structures like our brain,
27:19
Speaker 2: consciousness is very very strong, but in others, in other systems,
27:25
Speaker 2: it can be very low.
27:29
Speaker 1: I'm going to share a story with you about something
27:31
Speaker 1: that actually happened to me In nineteen seventy five. I
27:36
Speaker 1: was in the United States Air Force and I was
27:38
Speaker 1: stationed in Soul, Korea. One morning, I had a message
27:43
Speaker 1: in my head and I had no physical evidence, no
27:47
Speaker 1: phone calls, no letters from my mother back in New York,
27:50
Speaker 1: six thousand miles away, and the message was is that
27:54
Speaker 1: I needed to call her. She needed to hear from me.
27:56
Speaker 1: It was very important that I reach out to her.
28:00
Speaker 1: No clue whatsoever, no conscious clue whatsoever. I made the
28:05
Speaker 1: phone call, and in those days we had extension telephones,
28:08
Speaker 1: and my sister and my mother picked up the phone simultaneously,
28:12
Speaker 1: and I said, Mom, is there anything wrong? And my
28:15
Speaker 1: sister exclaimed, oh my god, how did he find out?
28:19
Speaker 1: And it turned out that she was scheduled for major
28:21
Speaker 1: surgery the next day. And instinctively, I said to her,
28:25
Speaker 1: the surgery would be a complete success. She'd have a
28:28
Speaker 1: complete healing, it would be very rapid, there would be
28:30
Speaker 1: no problems. She was going to be just fine. She
28:33
Speaker 1: needed to hear those words from me. Now, is there
28:37
Speaker 1: a quantum theory of consciousness? Is there a model in
28:41
Speaker 1: which thoughts display non locality?
28:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well, some people believe on this consciousness is
28:49
Speaker 2: related to the entanglement that is proposed for quantum mechanics.
28:56
Speaker 2: And I'm going to tell you another story which is
28:58
Speaker 2: very similar. Has Berger, who was the neurologist who invented
29:03
Speaker 2: the electroncephalogram. When you put the electrodes on in the
29:07
Speaker 2: skull in the scalp and record electrical activity through through
29:11
Speaker 2: the scalp, through the skull. He believed in telepathy. He
29:18
Speaker 2: actually he knew of some person who had a very
29:22
Speaker 2: similar experience as you had. That a mother who felt
29:29
Speaker 2: a message from his son who was in war and
29:33
Speaker 2: he had been wounded. Actually, and she didn't know, And
29:37
Speaker 2: she invented the electrincephalogram to show scientifically that waves from
29:43
Speaker 2: the brain could be transmitted across space. He himself found
29:50
Speaker 2: out that actually the waves that come out of the brain,
29:53
Speaker 2: but he he also acknowledged that these waves were so
30:00
Speaker 2: so small, so so so weak, that they couldn't be
30:05
Speaker 2: transmitted far away. So so it felt this is not
30:09
Speaker 2: the way telepathy works. But I mean, this is an
30:13
Speaker 2: open question.
30:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, have you done any studies on quantum physics and
30:18
Speaker 1: the relationship quantum entanglement, the relationship to consciousness. I have,
30:22
Speaker 1: I have.
30:23
Speaker 2: I have gone across these these these studies, I mean,
30:26
Speaker 2: not not really, not really in depth.
30:29
Speaker 8: I I think that, uh uh, this this is a
30:37
Speaker 8: very hard issue.
30:39
Speaker 2: First of all, and and and and I'm afraid I'm
30:42
Speaker 2: a little bit skeptical about this because at the end,
30:48
Speaker 2: I think, like other theories, they are and the most
30:53
Speaker 2: they're they're not possible to be demonstrated. I mean you
30:59
Speaker 2: can claim no, no consciousness comes in the wave function,
31:02
Speaker 2: conto whatever. Yeah, but can you see consciousness in a
31:06
Speaker 2: wave function? Can you detect it?
31:11
Speaker 1: That would also apply to what's known as remote viewing.
31:14
Speaker 1: Are you familiar with that?
31:16
Speaker 2: What is that?
31:17
Speaker 1: Remote viewing is where someone can be This is something
31:20
Speaker 1: that started back in the nineteen sixties when there was
31:25
Speaker 1: fear that there was the Soviet Union at the time
31:29
Speaker 1: was spying on the United States using what they call
31:32
Speaker 1: remote viewers, and then the Stanford Research Institute in California
31:37
Speaker 1: began their own experiments with remote viewing, where someone would
31:40
Speaker 1: basically be placed in a room and be given a
31:43
Speaker 1: series of coordinates and would be asked to project their
31:46
Speaker 1: consciousness to those coordinates and they either tell or draw
31:50
Speaker 1: what they were seeing. And some of the results were amazing.
31:55
Speaker 2: Oh I had no idea about this.
31:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, perhaps you research I.
32:01
Speaker 2: Would like I would like to see those experiments.
32:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, absolutely, I'll share. I'll share owre offline. I'll
32:07
Speaker 1: share the information with you. Okay, great. We had talked
32:11
Speaker 1: about this before. You had mentioned your cats and dogs
32:15
Speaker 1: and pets. There are those of us whose sense that
32:19
Speaker 1: our animal companions display or demonstrate emotions, and this extends
32:26
Speaker 1: to other non human animals. How do we measure consciousness
32:30
Speaker 1: in non human animals? And what are the the ethical
32:34
Speaker 1: implications that we have.
32:38
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that's a that's a good question. I think
32:40
Speaker 2: what we can do is to find good correlates. Again, correlates.
32:48
Speaker 2: It's a correlate. The correlate. Correlation does not mean causation.
32:53
Speaker 2: A correlate of an emotion. You can have a very
32:57
Speaker 2: good physiological correlate of emotion. And then if you see
33:03
Speaker 2: these correlates in an animal beat a crab, or be
33:09
Speaker 2: a mouse, or be a monkey, well you can safely
33:14
Speaker 2: conclude that this animal could be could be sentient, and
33:19
Speaker 2: then you should be careful about how you treat it.
33:23
Speaker 2: M But I don't think we can see the subjective
33:29
Speaker 2: experience of an animal.
33:33
Speaker 1: And ethically, how would this apply to the fact that
33:36
Speaker 1: many people consume animals for food.
33:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's well, yeah, but that's I mean, actually, plants
33:45
Speaker 2: are also alive. I mean, but we need to eat something.
33:52
Speaker 2: I think this this, this is going to be changing
33:55
Speaker 2: because the synthetic food is becoming a big industry these days.
34:08
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's going to replace natural food,
34:11
Speaker 2: but it is becoming a big industry, and probably people
34:15
Speaker 2: who have these concerns will have the possibility of eating
34:22
Speaker 2: things that are are not biological in a way.
34:29
Speaker 1: We have today. We have vegetarians and vegans who basically
34:33
Speaker 1: refrain from eating meat, and vegans refrain from dairy and
34:36
Speaker 1: eggs and all of that stuff. That type of ethic.
34:42
Speaker 1: Do you think that's an important ethic for us to examine.
34:46
Speaker 2: Well, I think as long as there's people who's concerned
34:49
Speaker 2: about it, it's important. M Personally, I do eat meat
34:54
Speaker 2: and I do it fish, but I understand people who doesn't.
35:02
Speaker 2: I have relatives who are began, and I respect them
35:06
Speaker 2: all the time. I mean, it's there's no problem, But
35:11
Speaker 2: I don't think this can be imposed as a rule.
35:17
Speaker 1: You had touched upon this before. You said that you
35:21
Speaker 1: do not think this is the case. But are there
35:24
Speaker 1: those who believe that consciousness can emerge in artificial systems
35:29
Speaker 1: such as AI, artificial intelligence and language models.
35:33
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yes, And then again, since these theories are not demonstrable,
35:42
Speaker 2: they are not I mean, they cannot be proved, they
35:46
Speaker 2: cannot be wrong. Either. So if somebody says a large
35:51
Speaker 2: language model is in fact conscious, there's no way to
35:58
Speaker 2: reject that hypot This is That's why it's I think
36:02
Speaker 2: it's not scientific because in science you need to propose
36:07
Speaker 2: hypothesis that are rejectable mm hm, A scientific through truth
36:13
Speaker 2: truth in quotes. It is a statement that can in
36:18
Speaker 2: principle be wrong. Like newtona mechanics. Mechanics works pretty well
36:26
Speaker 2: until you go into other scale in in in in
36:32
Speaker 2: cosmic uh, in cosmology, whatever you know, and then NEWTONA
36:38
Speaker 2: mechanics doesn't work anymore. Hm. It's the same for consciousness.
36:43
Speaker 2: You know, you need to show that this theory you
36:49
Speaker 2: know works, and and and and by assuming that that
36:54
Speaker 2: that that that a computer is or is not conscious,
36:59
Speaker 2: you're not proving any think you're just assuming.
37:03
Speaker 1: And tell us a little more about this concept, these
37:06
Speaker 1: large language models and what has been said about them.
37:11
Speaker 2: I think, I think, I think I'm not I'm not
37:15
Speaker 2: an expert on a on a I but I think
37:18
Speaker 2: that large language models are are are an impressive tool
37:23
Speaker 2: for us. We can do many many things with them,
37:27
Speaker 2: and and and they will expand our our our knowledge
37:32
Speaker 2: and our capabilities way beyond what we can do now hm.
37:40
Speaker 2: Whether they post a thread for us, it depends on
37:44
Speaker 2: who manages them. I think I think that the main,
37:48
Speaker 2: the main issue about the development of AI is that
37:53
Speaker 2: it may lead to inequalities, for example, to two people
37:59
Speaker 2: having an excess of power over the other people, uh,
38:04
Speaker 2: et cetera. I think I think this is this is
38:07
Speaker 2: the main concern to me, rather than than than that
38:11
Speaker 2: language models are going to control us. Now there's there's
38:14
Speaker 2: I think I think there's always going to be someone
38:16
Speaker 2: controlling this, uh, either the state or a big corporation,
38:21
Speaker 2: et cetera.
38:23
Speaker 1: And I think the the implication is like any tool.
38:26
Speaker 1: You can take a tool, you can take a hammer,
38:29
Speaker 1: and when used properly, a hammer is used for construction
38:32
Speaker 1: and for building, but if used improperly, it could hurt someone.
38:35
Speaker 1: So that's what we're talking about.
38:37
Speaker 2: Here, exactly exactly. I think I think that uh uh
38:40
Speaker 2: uh a I should be regulated in some way. The
38:45
Speaker 2: problem is, how do you regulate something that that changes
38:50
Speaker 2: practically every day. I mean, you make a rule and
38:53
Speaker 2: then and then it results that that the rule is
38:57
Speaker 2: it becomes obsolete for some reason. So this is this
39:00
Speaker 2: is uh an important tissue. Yes, I mean some some
39:06
Speaker 2: very big exponents of a I have already claimed that
39:11
Speaker 2: that uh, thebras for AI should be should be stopped
39:17
Speaker 2: and everything, but but they keep doing it anyway.
39:19
Speaker 1: So I think AI, if used properly, could be a
39:24
Speaker 1: wonderful tool, especially in education.
39:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, and not only in education, in science. Actually, an
39:30
Speaker 2: overprice in chemistry is the use of UH uh an
39:33
Speaker 2: a I to predict and and and uh even to
39:38
Speaker 2: design protein structures. So so yes, yes, a I can
39:43
Speaker 2: be of great benefit for for us.
39:47
Speaker 1: Ultimate and ultimately AI for medical diagnostics.
39:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure of that. And uh I
39:57
Speaker 2: I even think that a AI can be creative. I
40:04
Speaker 2: think I can can become to write good musical pieces,
40:10
Speaker 2: m to write good model loved novels. I mean, in
40:17
Speaker 2: the future. This is a possible. This is a possibility,
40:20
Speaker 2: and why not. What's a problem about it?
40:23
Speaker 1: Well, I write poetry. When I write poetry, it's my
40:27
Speaker 1: creative process, and my emotions come to play. If they
40:31
Speaker 1: I have emotions, I don't know if.
40:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, but but they they may know, they may
40:36
Speaker 2: know how to how to trigger an emotion in you.
40:45
Speaker 1: I think we should keep poets for the poets and
40:47
Speaker 1: composing composers.
40:49
Speaker 2: All right, all right, all right.
40:52
Speaker 1: My guest is doctor Francisco Aboids his book A History
40:55
Speaker 1: of Bodies, Brains and Minds, The Evolution of Life and Consciousness.
41:00
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more after these words on the
41:02
Speaker 1: Olden Times Radio Network.
41:05
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43:21
Speaker 1: Back on Vox Novus. My guest this week, doctor Francisco Aboitis.
43:25
Speaker 1: We're talking about his new book, A History of Bodies,
43:28
Speaker 1: Brains and Minds, The Evolution of Life and Consciousness. Doctor
43:35
Speaker 1: boys to humans who suffer brain damage manifest differences in consciousness.
43:43
Speaker 2: Well, in a way, yes, some of them do. Some
43:47
Speaker 2: of them become unaware of things. For example, there's there's
43:52
Speaker 2: a condition which usually happens with a stroke in the
43:56
Speaker 2: barietal in the in the the front or parietal load
43:59
Speaker 2: in the room left side of the brain. That is
44:04
Speaker 2: called neglect. People see, can see, they have no perceptual
44:09
Speaker 2: problem of whatever is going on. Mh to their left,
44:13
Speaker 2: to their right, to the right side, sorry, to their
44:16
Speaker 2: left side. Sorry. And despite they can perceive it, they
44:24
Speaker 2: don't pay attention to it and they're not conscious of it.
44:28
Speaker 2: So so so the half of the world is in
44:32
Speaker 2: existence to them. Of course, this is this is a
44:34
Speaker 2: problem of consciousness. And there are many other instances of that.
44:40
Speaker 2: For example, uh uh, well, psychedelic drugs, psychedelic drugs or
44:47
Speaker 2: there's no question that they alter our level of consciousness.
44:55
Speaker 2: The point is, I mean, all this, all these u
45:00
Speaker 2: uh alterations of consciousness make something very clear that consciousness
45:08
Speaker 2: requires a brain to work. Without a brain, we don't
45:13
Speaker 2: have consciousness. Whether we have consciousness just with the brain
45:19
Speaker 2: and not the rest of the body, well, that's an
45:23
Speaker 2: open question, and there's there's a big discussion about that.
45:27
Speaker 2: Whether just the brain is sufficient to generate consciousness. I
45:33
Speaker 2: think the brain has to be embedded in a body.
45:36
Speaker 2: But that's that's those those are very important questions.
45:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've read and seen stories about people who have
45:47
Speaker 1: suffered brain injuries and all of a sudden become savant
45:51
Speaker 1: in a specific area. Some become musical savants where they're
45:54
Speaker 1: playing piano, they had never played piano before, speaking different languages.
45:58
Speaker 1: Are you familiar with any.
45:59
Speaker 14: Of these some of it, some of it some Sometimes
46:04
Speaker 14: what happens is that, I mean with a lesions, some
46:09
Speaker 14: some areas become disinhibited mhm.
46:13
Speaker 2: And then people show some behaviors that they didn't do,
46:20
Speaker 2: or some some some capacities that they didn't show before.
46:26
Speaker 2: That that that may happen. It's very unlikely, very unlikely.
46:31
Speaker 2: Mostly brain damage produces a decreasing function rather than increasing function,
46:37
Speaker 2: But that may happen.
46:40
Speaker 1: What are the evolutionary benefits of consciousness, if any?
46:47
Speaker 2: We don't know. We don't know. Actually what what what
46:50
Speaker 2: if we weren't all automata but behave like like we do,
46:55
Speaker 2: but being automata, we could have survived, you could have
46:58
Speaker 2: done everything. Why does consciousness arise in these things? Actually?
47:04
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think, and this is the I
47:07
Speaker 2: think this is the most important question of all. And
47:10
Speaker 2: I don't think science by itself will solve this question,
47:15
Speaker 2: because why are we consciousness? Like lightnings? Ask why there's
47:21
Speaker 2: something instead of nothing? Why? Why do we have these
47:28
Speaker 2: vivid experiences of things?
47:32
Speaker 1: What is the consciousness pyramid?
47:36
Speaker 2: The consciousness pyramid is my view of consciousness in the
47:40
Speaker 2: sense that consciousness is ground on biological processes. First of
47:45
Speaker 2: olders there are some basic processes like self maintenance, for example.
47:53
Speaker 2: Then you come to learning capacities, Then you come to
47:57
Speaker 2: making wrath models of the world, and then you come
48:01
Speaker 2: to have language and an autobiographical memory and a description
48:08
Speaker 2: of the world and all that is. It's the compression
48:12
Speaker 2: of all these different levels that actually make consciousness. In
48:19
Speaker 2: my view, uh, how does how do they do it?
48:23
Speaker 2: I have no idea, but but I think it consciousness
48:28
Speaker 2: emerges on this, on the on this, on this multi
48:31
Speaker 2: level interaction. Yeah. Uh. The point is that actually the
48:37
Speaker 2: higher levels of consciousness like like for example, like like
48:40
Speaker 2: you were talking about speaking, or or or or making
48:46
Speaker 2: judgments or whatever, you know, well, artificial intelligence is doing
48:51
Speaker 2: them right now, but not necessarily these artificial intelligence are conscious.
48:58
Speaker 1: So I'm sorry, go ahead, I'm sorry.
49:00
Speaker 2: So so that's why I think the biology has to
49:02
Speaker 2: be behind mm hmmm.
49:06
Speaker 1: Are there spiritual ramifications of consciousness in terms of faith
49:11
Speaker 1: and religion?
49:14
Speaker 2: I think faith, But I think I think the human
49:17
Speaker 2: being will always have faith and religion. I think it's
49:20
Speaker 2: it's it. And this is because there are things we
49:23
Speaker 2: cannot explain, not even science can explain them. So what
49:27
Speaker 2: else do you have?
49:29
Speaker 1: Do you see these though, as a connection with consciousness?
49:33
Speaker 2: Well, I think consciousness is is a great mystery of life.
49:38
Speaker 2: And and if that has to do with something supernatural
49:42
Speaker 2: or or or with God whatever, I I am not
49:48
Speaker 2: sure of that, but I think at least the window
49:51
Speaker 2: is open in this, in this direction.
49:54
Speaker 1: What do you see as the future study of consciousness.
49:58
Speaker 2: Well, I think we will become very good at detecting
50:04
Speaker 2: distinct consciousness states. We will be able to to develop
50:11
Speaker 2: very sophisticated neuro correlates of consciousness using AI especially m hm,
50:18
Speaker 2: so we can be we will be able to to
50:21
Speaker 2: to record brain activity and and and uh and uh
50:28
Speaker 2: see what people is thinking about for example. Mhm. But actually,
50:33
Speaker 2: this is done already. There are several experiments, very recent
50:37
Speaker 2: experiments that show this can be done. And and and
50:41
Speaker 2: actually there's there's a recent paper in the journal Neuron
50:45
Speaker 2: where where researchers communicated directly to human beings through their
50:52
Speaker 2: uh electric electro physiological recordings without need to talk between themselves. Uh.
51:01
Speaker 2: But this, I mean this, this detection of our thoughts
51:07
Speaker 2: will not is not the same as the subjective experience
51:17
Speaker 2: of having the thought.
51:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fascinating that there have been many science fiction
51:23
Speaker 1: works in which the beings have evolved to a very
51:27
Speaker 1: high state and there's no longer a need for speech,
51:30
Speaker 1: that everything is transmitted through thought.
51:33
Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh oh, let's see, let's see about it. I'm
51:38
Speaker 2: not sure. I'm not sure this this, this will work
51:41
Speaker 2: for us as humans.
51:43
Speaker 15: But but, but I have to say that today progress
51:53
Speaker 15: is really really interesting in this direction.
51:59
Speaker 2: They're they're very, very, very interesting and amazing things that
52:02
Speaker 2: are that are being done these days.
52:05
Speaker 1: The philosopher Reneeda Kart famously said coguito orgosum, translated as
52:12
Speaker 1: I think therefore I am from the standpoint of neuroscience,
52:17
Speaker 1: does thought imply existence?
52:21
Speaker 2: From my own standpoint, yes, I think scientists tend to.
52:31
Speaker 2: In general, they tend to they try to to to
52:36
Speaker 2: to get away with this assuming objectivity in the sense
52:42
Speaker 2: that everything, every scientific statement, and every scientific observation needs
52:51
Speaker 2: the presence of at least two independent observers. That that
52:56
Speaker 2: I agree that whatever is being observed is the same thing.
53:01
Speaker 2: But with consciousness, that doesn't work because consciousness there is
53:05
Speaker 2: only one person who experiences it. So that's why I
53:11
Speaker 2: think at the end the cards is correct.
53:13
Speaker 4: Mm.
53:14
Speaker 2: Hm. Is I think therefore I am that's every That's
53:18
Speaker 2: where everything starts.
53:19
Speaker 12: Hmm.
53:21
Speaker 1: What would you like readers to take away from a
53:24
Speaker 1: history of bodies, brains and minds, the evolution of life
53:28
Speaker 1: and consciousness?
53:31
Speaker 2: Well, I I want I want them to to first
53:34
Speaker 2: of all, gets a sense of the of of the
53:38
Speaker 2: miracle of of biological evolution, and how biological evolution is
53:44
Speaker 2: able to generate all that we see on Earth particularly
53:48
Speaker 2: are very complex brains, and that and that consciousness emerges
53:54
Speaker 2: from all this processes, although we may not know how
53:57
Speaker 2: that how how it works.
54:01
Speaker 1: And what else.
54:03
Speaker 2: And what else? Well, that's there's a sense of continuity,
54:08
Speaker 2: you know, between even pretty biotic line life. You know,
54:14
Speaker 2: before life was cons constituted as a first sell until us.
54:23
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a history in this. There's a history,
54:28
Speaker 2: and and this history is bound by the process of
54:33
Speaker 2: natural selection. M hmm. I think even language, which is
54:38
Speaker 2: one of the great mysteries, I think is the result
54:43
Speaker 2: of biological evolution.
54:45
Speaker 1: My guest, doctor Francisco Avoides his book A History of Bodies,
54:50
Speaker 1: Brains and Minds, the Evolution of Life and Consciousness. And
54:54
Speaker 1: I must say to our listeners, especially those who are
54:57
Speaker 1: not trained in science or have a background in science,
55:00
Speaker 1: this is a very fascinating and easy to read book
55:03
Speaker 1: for non scientists. He really lays it out in a
55:06
Speaker 1: way that you will thoroughly understand everything he's sharing. And
55:09
Speaker 1: I'm grateful to doctor Francisco Boids for writing it this way.
55:12
Speaker 1: So please share with our listeners where they can get
55:14
Speaker 1: your book and find out more about you.
55:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, they can. They can get this book on Amazon,
55:19
Speaker 2: on m T press Bookstore, and in any any internet bookshelf.
55:34
Speaker 2: The book is also available for free if you want
55:41
Speaker 2: to just download it in in in in m T press.
55:46
Speaker 2: But but but you can buy a hard copy from
55:49
Speaker 2: m T press to or from Amazon from wherever you
55:53
Speaker 2: want to choose.
55:53
Speaker 1: It and your web page there.
55:56
Speaker 2: My web page is Francisco avoid is dot neuroscience.
56:03
Speaker 1: Doctor Boorters. Thank you so much for joining us and
56:06
Speaker 1: sharing this amazing and wonderful work that you do.
56:09
Speaker 2: Thank you Victor, and thank you for.
56:12
Speaker 1: Joining us on Vox Novis. I'm Victor the Voice Furman.
56:17
Speaker 1: Have a wonderful week