Latest / Dubious Creatures Presents / The Dubious Book Club Podcast Ep 10 - Daggermouth Part 2

Transcript

The Dubious Book Club Podcast Ep 10 - Daggermouth Part 2 · Dubious Creatures Presents

0:00
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Dubious Book Club
0:03
podcast. I'm one of your dubious
0:05
creatures. Opry and say hi other dubious
0:07
creature. There's someone operating a
0:10
jackhammer outside of my apartment and I don't know where
0:14
exactly they are, but it's driving me absolutely crazy.
0:20
Well, it's not picking up on the mic, luckily.
0:23
Also Hi. We are back discussing the
0:30
second-half of Dagger Mouth. I got it correct that time 0.
0:36
God, I don't even. Before we get into our actual
0:42
thoughts, I will mention the content warnings for this book
0:45
are graphic violence, misogyny, abuse, death, grief, torture,
0:48
substance abuse, mentions of child abuse.
0:52
It's. Sexual assault.
0:55
Yes, that too. Yeah, a lot of that.
0:59
Yeah. Yeah.
1:03
So you know where we left things off at the end of the first
1:09
half? We literally ended right after
1:11
family dinner. Yeah, which I refer you back to
1:18
Lord Dad. Lord Dad as to how well that
1:25
potentially went. Sorry I'm some bullshit's coming
1:34
up and I'm still trying to figure out how to parse it.
1:39
No, it's this fair. I finished reading it like a
1:41
week ago so I've had like a week to sit on it.
1:44
Yeah. Yeah, we have the aftermath, the
1:51
dinner where Grayson takes his sister to Callum.
1:59
We got a lot more yearning between the two of them.
2:05
We have Lord Dad's torture dungeon because seriously it's
2:12
just. So I checked it and we only get
2:17
2 sections in the book that are from Maximus's POV And was the
2:26
author like worried that I I somehow get confused about what
2:32
his role in the story is because ignoring the fact that the
2:37
fucker's name is Maximus I I know I was already pretty sure
2:41
he was just stone cold evil. Like there wasn't much doubt of
2:44
that. We didn't need to.
2:46
Normally I'm an advocate for, you know, showing rather than
2:51
telling. But when you devote an entire
2:53
couple of pages to showing off the evil dictator's wifely
2:56
torture dungeon? Yeah, I, I'd say the, the first
3:01
Maximus section works better than the second because that,
3:06
that, that kind of sets out our, because it's, that's him being
3:10
like, we have to have a plan. We're going to do this about a
3:14
thing. The first one works better.
3:15
The second one, second one at least I feel like could have
3:18
been shorter or something else. Or from someone else's
3:21
perspective. I mean, like, yeah, no, we get
3:26
it. He's not.
3:27
He's so he's almost competitively misogynistic,
3:32
like, you know. It's also a Chekhov's Gun for
3:37
having the torture dungeon used later in the book.
3:41
I know, but like we're getting in the Snidely Whiplash levels
3:46
of just like there is a point where a person becomes such a
3:51
caricature that they just cease to be threatening.
3:55
And we were. We were already there with
3:58
Maximus Sorrell and now we are in full baby harp seal clubbing
4:03
territory. Is it do and like again, like I,
4:10
I get what this I I get that he's not meant to be redeemable
4:13
in the slightest. I get what this book is about.
4:17
It's just I get the people like this exist.
4:21
But The thing is, there's a difference between what's
4:24
realistic and what's good fiction, because at a certain
4:28
point it just becomes torture. Porn, yeah.
4:32
Like you didn't I have to show us brutalizing his wife?
4:38
He chose to do that. We already knew he was a
4:41
certified bad dude. Yeah, we already knew he had
4:45
some kind of private rumpus room full of chains and whips, and
4:48
not in the fun way. It could have been in a side or
4:53
something he threatened Grayson with, I think.
4:57
I think something like that would work better than the
4:59
section, like the section itself is.
5:01
It's it's well written, it's good.
5:03
He does a bit much. I will agree with you in that.
5:05
I'm gonna be real. I'd stopped taking him seriously
5:08
after that section. It kind of had the opposite
5:12
intended effect for me. I was like, OK, yeah, but
5:17
there's no. He's just so fucking mustache
5:21
twirlingly bad. Like I don't know what else to
5:24
say about Lord Dad here. Yeah, sometimes having a
5:29
mustache twirling villain is fun.
5:31
But yes, I mean, it's it is. It is one of those things where
5:37
I probably might, if I wasn't around a thing, I probably would
5:40
have noted to either like shorten it quite a bit or cut it
5:43
completely, or include like references to it in a
5:48
conversation between Maximus and Grayson.
5:51
Yeah, it's, I'm harping on this because legitimately the rest of
5:58
the the the rest of the third act genuinely does not matter
6:02
right up until maybe the last couple of chapters.
6:05
Yeah, yeah, I know. And I have.
6:07
I have thoughts about like the third act and like how I would
6:10
have done things differently. Like I'm going to read the
6:13
sequel because I want to know how everything ends.
6:16
But yeah, there there's certain ways I would have done the third
6:20
act a little differently. I know you're not going to read
6:23
it. I know you're not.
6:24
I I do, I didn't. I wasn't particularly invested
6:29
before. I before they introduced us to
6:34
Pee Wee Herman's dungeon. I'm good.
6:39
But moving back, moving away from Lord Dad, we we get back in
6:43
Jameson's shoes for a little bit.
6:46
Right, he still exists. Yes, he does.
6:50
Yeah, you know, the revolution brewing things are terrible.
6:58
They're they're. But there's allusions to the
7:02
Veyra planning to do what all dictators in dystopian fiction
7:06
do, which is nuke the poor. For some reason.
7:12
We're not giving it quite yet, but trust me, it's still dumb.
7:18
Well, thus it's it's a pretty standard dystopian fiction
7:21
reason. I know, but that doesn't make it
7:25
any less head scratchingly baffling.
7:30
I get it. Like, again, I get it.
7:32
You're it's the fucking Galactic Empire problem, right?
7:36
Like you want, you want to make them, you know, competent so
7:42
that they're a threat, but you don't want to make them too
7:43
competent. So that way the, you know,
7:46
heroes actually feel like they have a challenge to strive
7:48
against. Yeah, they feel like they're
7:50
actually punching upwards. But the problem is what ends up
7:53
happening more often than not is that they just come off as being
7:58
simultaneously grossly incompetent and yet strangely
8:02
ultra competent only when the plot demands it.
8:06
And the rest of their evil plan is so much stuff like it.
8:13
Is the IT is a balancing act? Yeah, and it's hard to pull off.
8:20
Like the thing with Daggermouth specifically is like they have
8:26
some sort of genocidal plan to kill off a bunch of people on
8:32
the boundary and replace them with.
8:36
It's a month thing. Yeah, which because apparently,
8:40
and we learned this at like the 11th hour, there are other city
8:43
states in this world and they've all collapsed and.
8:47
Feel like there are references to there being other city states
8:49
early on to the book, but it's like a line or two.
8:52
Yeah, I I completely missed that bit, to be perfectly honest.
8:59
Anyway, so that they're apparently these refugee rich
9:04
people are flooding into New Haven and apparently they're
9:09
going to make room in the fucking that they're going to
9:14
gentrify the slums or something. I don't know it.
9:18
Unfortunately, gentrification is still something that we have to
9:21
deal with in real life. I, I know, but again, just
9:25
because it's I refer you back to the whole just because it's
9:28
realistic doesn't mean it makes for a good story.
9:32
Real life. Real life is frustratingly banal
9:35
and shit just happens for no goddamn reason.
9:38
One of the benefits of writing a book is that you can actually
9:40
give people a semblance of a domino effect.
9:44
And also one of the big things with Jameson is tonight's the
9:47
night they're going to get shade out.
9:52
Right, because that's going to work.
9:54
Of course, we still have so much of a book left.
9:59
He's so spoiler warning it doesn't work.
10:03
I mean, shade drug gets a firm lesson from Grayson about the
10:09
type of frankly, ultra competitive misogynist Olympics
10:13
they're playing here in the here in the heart, because why not?
10:20
How she's basically the moment she takes the vow she's
10:22
basically going to be considered property on Dimes and his this
10:32
fucking wet puppies only idea of even slightly commiserating is
10:37
going out to the red light district so he can hook up with
10:40
this side piece. And I don't know.
10:44
Shader can get day drunk to be honest.
10:46
They just needed an excuse to get them away from the ultra
10:48
fortified security. It's depressing when the plot is
10:52
happening purely because the author has a scene in mind that
10:57
there's no actual reason for them to do 90% of what happens
11:03
except because there needs to be some kind of confrontation, and
11:08
it's the inevitable confrontation of the love
11:11
triangle nobody asked for but we are forced to endure.
11:16
We should state both. You know, I'd be down for
11:20
polyamory if anybody had the fucking balls to do it, but
11:25
that's not the kind of book we're reading.
11:28
I mean, I'll let you know if it happens.
11:30
Book 2. I just yeah, I so we have our
11:36
Jacob and Edward moment. We also learned that's a very, a
11:40
very big thing is that Captain Mikel is a traitor.
11:44
Yeah, and if you wonder why we didn't mention Captain Mikel in
11:49
the previous recording, it's because up until this point he
11:53
was just kind of a miscellaneous goon.
11:55
He was kind of a miscellaneous goon.
11:57
He had like a couple of moments, but like nothing big.
12:02
But he was always there and always mentioned.
12:05
So like, I definitely remembered who he was.
12:07
Like as soon as like they said who he was, I was like, Oh yeah,
12:10
that guy, that guy who's just been there and been by been by
12:14
the, you know, Lord Dad's side this whole time.
12:19
Yeah, no, the the Darth Vader to his Emperor Palpatine.
12:23
Exactly. Except not even a tenth of the
12:26
charisma. Yeah.
12:28
So OK, that's bit cool. Again, it what does this do for
12:39
the story? Like actually.
12:42
It pushes us like towards stuff and it also makes shade make a
12:46
choice. Right.
12:50
And that's the problem. It does nothing except to get
12:52
the plot where it needs to go. Again, there's a lot of that
12:57
here, because clearly they're ramping up to some sort of final
13:00
climax. And if you think that this twist
13:02
is at out of left field, oh boy, you ain't seen nothing yet.
13:08
Yeah, I I tore through the second-half of this book in
13:11
about 2 1/2 days. I read it really fast.
13:16
I just read it in a like an afternoon.
13:19
We can't all be like speed readers like you.
13:22
I'm sorry, I don't, I don't know what's physically wrong with me.
13:29
I, I, I go through books really quickly.
13:32
I don't know why. I've always been like a speed
13:34
reader and honestly, it drives me crazy because it means every
13:37
time I get a new book, every time I get a new book, I'm
13:42
always done with the I can always finish the book in like a
13:44
day or two Max. Yeah, I always thought I was.
13:47
A really fast reader. And then I met you.
13:50
Yeah, I don't. I think the problem is I read
13:53
too many scholastic novellas as a kid.
13:56
I heard a bunch of those too. Like I, I was the, I was the kid
13:59
always in the back of class, like reading a book.
14:03
Like I, I went through like all sorts of books that I honestly
14:08
probably shouldn't have in high school because my parents are
14:12
like, oh, you're reading. That's fine.
14:14
We're not really going to check what you're actually reading,
14:16
but you're reading. That's the important part.
14:18
So that that that's how I read this.
14:23
This is the series of vampire books when I was in high school.
14:26
And then she was. Changed forever trying.
14:31
To remember the title because it's always like stuck with me
14:36
because I was not expecting them to be what they are.
14:42
No, I'm, I'm fascinated. What exactly?
14:46
I remember the title, but I I couldn't remember the author.
14:49
Yeah, we're, we're learning the deep Aubrey lore here, folks.
14:55
All right, well, you ponder that for a second while I redirect us
14:59
towards what we're actually supposed to be doing here.
15:02
It's fine. I you you're not really missing
15:05
out on much. So they have the inevitable
15:09
confrontation, which given that at this point in the book Shadra
15:18
and Grayson haven't so much as hate fucked.
15:22
Whereas let's face it, it's really only and Jameson is at
15:28
best of friends with benefits that Shadra can't grow
15:31
emotionally close to because it takes time away from her busy
15:35
brooding schedule. The, the, the energy is tepid.
15:41
And again, I, I, I go back to the familiar refrain of I
15:44
understand I'm not the target audience.
15:50
I, I get that I'm not, I'm supposed to be turning my brain
15:54
off and just imagining them all naked, but I, I'm sorry I I have
16:01
this the fucking thing called a narrativizing brain and it tends
16:05
to try and work out stuff like character motivations.
16:10
I I apologize for thinking about things but.
16:14
I, I, I found the book that I read that like the series that I
16:18
was like, I was 14 and I read this book and that I was like, I
16:22
should not have read this book when I was 14.
16:25
The book The book is called Wounds by Jeremiah Jefferson.
16:30
Fuck. I know exactly what you're
16:32
talking. You know the book.
16:34
Yeah, yeah. Oh my God, I will want to talk
16:40
about edgy nonsense. It's.
16:41
Been fucking years and the final line of that book is still
16:45
seared in the back of my brain. Oh man, that is some that is
16:50
like that should be wounds should be held up as like
16:53
cultural artifact of 2000s vampire fiction.
16:58
You were literally the first person I've met who's actually
17:01
read that book. No, it is some, it is some fine,
17:07
doesn't afraid of anything type nonsense.
17:12
I kind of want to go back and read the, read the like read the
17:17
three of the books again. Can we just talk about?
17:19
Wounds, can we just talk about that?
17:21
We don't need to, we don't need to get into the rest of this,
17:24
but. We'll get back to it.
17:26
We can circle back. It's the same energy, it just,
17:29
you know, vampires. Look, look, if Misfit and I are
17:34
going to have a 20 minute side tangent about audio book
17:38
narrators, we can have a 20 minute side tangent about
17:41
wounds. Yeah, I listened to that whole
17:48
tangent, by the way, and it's like, I can't leave you 2 alone
17:51
for a second, can I? No, no you cannot.
17:57
Yeah, it so it is. God, how do I even.
18:05
How do I even describe this fucking book?
18:09
So it was very quickly like truly what PDSM was at 14.
18:15
Yeah, because so Wounds is a it's a book about a vampire and
18:22
noder named, I want to say, Daniel, Daniel Bloom.
18:30
Daniel Bloom. OK, right.
18:33
Who notable, among other things, for hunting down and eating
18:38
Nazis. Which already makes him pretty
18:41
OK in my book. Yeah, despite the many things
18:45
that are wrong with him. God, 2000 what's when was this?
18:51
It was the two. Thousands, right?
18:52
2000 and 2000 is when is when No Wounds was published in 2002.
18:57
The first book in the series, Voice of Blood, was 2001.
19:00
Yeah, it was a different time. You could just massacre Nazis in
19:03
fiction without people calling you woke.
19:06
Yes, this was during a time where we were like, yeah,
19:09
everyone was on board with this. Everyone said this was a good
19:12
idea. Yeah, let us kill more Nazis in
19:17
fiction. God damn.
19:19
Exactly, I need a new Wolfenstein gang.
19:22
Yeah, fuck sake. Like they're like the one group
19:26
of people you can do pretty much anything too because they're
19:30
Nazis. Yeah, exactly.
19:33
If you are advocating on behalf of Nazis at any stage in your
19:36
life, you should probably take a minute and consider what series
19:39
of events LED you to that truly ruinous decision.
19:43
Exactly, you know, but yes, so. Danny Boy Danny Boy living large
19:50
in New York City meets a stripper.
19:56
Name something ridiculous. Sybil Sybil.
20:01
And, well, things get progressively saucy from there.
20:10
Yes, this is a book I should not have been reading at 14 in the
20:15
back of my English class. No, this is a.
20:20
I think in the first couple of chapters there is gay sex and
20:23
then the lover tries to forcibly turn himself into a vampire and
20:27
just ends up as a dead husk in the bathtub.
20:30
I don't know why I remember so much of this book.
20:34
Because you were 14 and reading about chains and whips and it
20:41
clearly awakened something in you.
20:43
I really don't remember much else of my freshman year of high
20:45
school. I remember this book.
20:49
Yeah, apparently it's like part of a larger series, that's what.
20:54
I'm just learning. I only ever read this one.
20:56
I'd never read any of the other books.
20:59
Yeah. Yeah, it's like the whole book
21:07
is is around them deciding to put on this BDSM expedition
21:11
exhibition in and then at the end of the end of the book,
21:15
fucking civil, just like I always remember they did.
21:17
Like spoilers for the end of wounds skip before we're 10
21:20
seconds if you don't want to hear it.
21:21
Like the end of this book, she cuts off his head, presents it
21:28
to everyone, and says behold the the head of Daniel Bloom and
21:33
he's still fucking alive. Yeah, that I remember this book
21:40
because so I obviously was not 14 when Aubrey was 14 because I
21:50
am a fucking infant compared to most of my fellow cast mates.
21:56
I was born in 1999, so get all the zoomer jokes out now.
22:01
I've read the I found this at like I found this at a kid you
22:06
not, I think, a Public Library where it had been shelled under
22:10
supernatural fiction. I mean, it technically is.
22:13
I think I found my copy at at like Friends of the Library book
22:17
sale. I don't remember when exactly
22:21
this was, I just definitely know.
22:23
Well AI wasn't supposed to be reading the books, I was
22:25
supposed to be sorting them. So I lost that volunteer
22:28
position really fast. And I don't remember how old I
22:33
was exactly, but I'm guessing not old enough.
22:36
To read some of the things that are in that book, no.
22:42
To be honest, to that point, I didn't think you could get away
22:45
with writing some of that stuff in an actual published novel,
22:49
but shows a little I fucking knew.
22:52
I will say this for like the fiction, especially the vampire
22:56
fiction around that time, it really came in two forms.
23:03
It was either Twilight or this. Yeah, this was also like during
23:10
pop easy brights like heyday. And I kind of miss it.
23:16
Yeah, no, there's something about this era of vampire books
23:20
that I, I definitely, I definitely do miss.
23:22
Like, I, I like, I, I like books on both ends of the spectrum.
23:26
But yeah, sometimes I'm just like, you know, I just really
23:30
want an unhugged vampire novel with a lot of sex and just very
23:38
just characters doing not good things.
23:41
And I know some smart asses about to say, isn't that
23:44
basically just the plot of loving of vampires?
23:47
Total chaos. It's like look.
23:49
Yeah, that one was closer to Twilight.
23:51
I yeah, First of all, it was nowhere near the level of like
24:00
Xavier. Xavier would be eternally a
24:04
holding Daniel Bloom's fucking beer.
24:07
OK, let's get one thing clear. Like, no, that's a real fucking
24:15
vampire over there. All right, You should be taking
24:17
notes, Seth. But like, more to the point, I
24:22
didn't hate it because it was gory and full of sex.
24:25
I hated it because it was very badly written, like to the point
24:30
where I just couldn't get through it.
24:33
That's valid. Yeah, because the editors are
24:38
might as well. Editors are apparently also
24:40
fictive creatures. Yeah, but I get, I don't know.
24:43
I mean, there's definitely a market for edgy nonsense, but I
24:45
don't know with stuff like Wounds especially there's.
24:48
Wounds is a very specific product of its time.
24:52
Well, it's not only that, but it's like, I guess, and I guess
24:55
since I got to link this into what we're currently talking
24:57
about, not to say that it's like some unspoken masterpiece.
25:03
It isn't, but I don't know it's there's something to be said for
25:10
not taking yourself so seriously.
25:15
You know the author's thinly veiled kinks meme right here.
25:19
Yeah, but like, that's kind of it, isn't it?
25:22
Like I didn't really mind stuff. We've read, you know, for all my
25:27
for all my whinging, which is just me, really.
25:30
I will complain bitterly, even as I'm being fed feet first into
25:35
a wood chipper. That's just the sort of person
25:37
that I am. Because also my first like
25:40
exposure to like bisexuality 'cause like I was 14 and like, I
25:46
think I had to learn. Like I just started watching
25:49
Buffy like the year before and I could just like seed Spike.
25:53
And I was like, this is awakening things in me and I
25:55
wasn't sure what that was yet. Yeah, we're gonna What?
26:03
What? I'm just gonna gloss into that
26:04
because I don't have time to go into the waves.
26:07
You are current. You are.
26:09
I don't have time to go into the waves.
26:11
You somehow managed to work fucking Spike into every
26:13
conversation we have about vampires.
26:15
I don't know. He's Yeah, you will.
26:18
You will get over him eventually.
26:21
I believe in you. One day, one day they'll they'll
26:24
come up with a come out with a better vampire than Spike.
26:28
Yeah, one day, but I don't know. But what was I even saying?
26:36
I like stuff like wounds. Because to be perfectly honest,
26:41
it just is what it is. You know what I mean?
26:44
It's not trying to be anything else.
26:46
And a lot of the books that we've reviewed, reviewed, just
26:52
imagine the largest air quotes are under reviewed.
26:57
I don't know there is, especially with the dagger
27:01
mouth. It takes itself so seriously to
27:05
the point where I am incapable of taking it seriously because I
27:10
get that. I get what's trying to do, and I
27:14
get that what it's trying to do and the themes it's trying to
27:17
discuss are very topical to, you know, stuff going on.
27:23
And there's definitely a place for that sort of fiction.
27:25
And that sort of fiction is definitely necessary.
27:29
The problem, at least that I find, is that this sort of
27:37
dystopian fiction is so fundamentally joyless that it
27:46
becomes hard to connect with any of the people that are currently
27:54
being ground down by the dystopia that you're portraying.
28:00
Because the fact of the matter is, and as frustrating as this
28:04
can be, people don't really connect to broader themes about
28:07
the state of the world. 90% of the time.
28:13
They're either connecting with characters personally or they're
28:16
just waiting for them to bone. And there is boning in
28:20
Daggermouth. To be fair, I keep wanting to
28:23
say Daggerheart. That's not something else.
28:27
Yeah, it also really doesn't help that I'm about to play on a
28:30
Daggerheart game, so that the game itself has been on my mind
28:33
quite a bit. Yeah, well, so we still get no
28:36
explanation for why the fuck they're called daggermouth like
28:39
again. Just want a little bit more.
28:42
We're building. Like you don't need to be.
28:47
You don't need to graduate from The Hunger Games School of World
28:53
Building, guys. It's it's fine.
28:58
Yeah, just I imagine you as the Oliver Twist meme of please can
29:02
I have some more world building? Yeah, like fuck man.
29:08
Some context would be delightful.
29:12
No, I understand there there is like I would.
29:15
I would love to know the history behind more of these things.
29:20
Like how did things get this bad?
29:22
That's what I want to know. Like because.
29:24
Very interesting to know. Horrifying dictatorships rarely
29:28
just spring out of a vacuum. Yeah, yeah.
29:32
No, there is that. Or it's just like, OK, things
29:35
had to get this bad. Like why?
29:39
Is how? Why?
29:40
How? Did the world fall to an
29:43
apocalypse? Yeah.
29:46
We and again we get like we get like little hints, but it again
29:51
it it's a very much blink and you miss it, you know, like I
29:54
genuinely missed the fact that there was war to this world
29:57
outside of the new Heart Foundation, the New Haven found.
30:01
Fuck no, the heart is the heart is the fucking is the fucking
30:08
tower of Babel in the center of it all and the found it.
30:13
Why is it called that? Why?
30:15
Is it called the New Haven Newfound Haven like?
30:19
That is a great question. Yeah.
30:22
I don't have an answer for you. Why are things called things?
30:27
Would be my first question. It didn't need to be answered
30:29
immediately, but it's getting answered never.
30:34
Names are important. I I already went on a tangent
30:38
about that and the last one I'm pretty sure I don't.
30:41
Really need to. Rehash that.
30:43
And again, if it feels like I'm procrastinating getting to the
30:48
final act of this book, it's because I I, I don't want to,
30:55
man. I don't want to untangle this
30:58
Gordian knot of Uno reverse cards.
31:02
There's a little bit and I definitely have ideas like,
31:05
yeah, how there's certain elements that I'm like, I would
31:10
have nixed because they just, they add nothing to the plot.
31:14
Like I understand what the author is doing and maybe they
31:16
pay off later, but in this book right now they don't really do
31:22
much. Yeah.
31:26
I think the main thing is that like since this is very much
31:31
feels like and alumnus of the Game of Thrones school of fuck
31:38
you, we're having a third act twist.
31:43
I knew from the get go there's no way this plan that the
31:47
rebellions plan is not going to work.
31:51
And the reason I knew that was going to happen was about when a
31:55
certain someone came back from the dead.
31:58
Because of course he fucking did.
32:00
Yeah, that I I think that still works, but I would have tweaked
32:06
it a little bit. Yeah, so again, for context,
32:12
after the oh, Jacob Edward, don't make me choose bits where
32:19
Shadrid decides to stay for some fucking reason.
32:25
What ends up happening is well, OK, a couple things end up
32:28
happening. We do get one scene of a We do
32:31
get one scene of Grayson and Shadra having themselves a good
32:36
old post murder hate fuck. Yeah, because battle we get them
32:42
as a battle couple, which was fun.
32:44
I think that was a good scene. That was like just a good scene
32:46
in general of them just massacring all the Vera.
32:51
For some people, sure. I have very specific tastes.
32:55
I know you do. And I'm running out of ways to
32:57
tell you to stop disappointing your father.
33:02
So I'm I'm just going to put this sign.
33:06
I'm just going to put this sign, the sign that says find other
33:08
ways to disappoint your father. I'm just going to hang this over
33:12
the entire conversation and I will tap it every time we come
33:16
up with one of those scenes. OK, OK, great.
33:18
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dear listener, please keep
33:21
count. Yeah, help me.
33:25
It's just this. Yeah, no.
33:28
There is murder, there's hate fucking.
33:31
And then there is there's. There's some truly horrifying
33:36
revelations about poor Lyra Cyril and that and like it.
33:42
Again, I knew Lord Dad was the bad guy.
33:47
I seem a little frustrating. It's all right that I'll I'll
33:55
let you finish your thought. I just want to say it's even
33:56
more frustrating, especially considering how the book ends.
34:00
Yeah, it is. I still, I think, I think Lira's
34:04
confession and everything that happened to her still, still
34:06
like, works as like back story, story beat and why she's doing
34:11
this. I wish it had come up earlier.
34:15
Yeah, I'm hesitant to describe it because I know that could
34:20
definitely serve as a trigger for some people, so.
34:23
It is bad. Let's.
34:25
Just say it is bad and I refer you back to the aforementioned
34:28
sexual assault warning. Yes, like especially because we
34:34
see stuff from her perspective. He could have even dropped in
34:38
one of those. Yeah, and Callum is also here.
34:46
Yes, he is. There's a scene where he
34:50
tortures a dude. A guy's got to have hobbies.
34:54
Yeah, I mean, we, we've seen him, the Godfather up into it.
34:59
I'm going to be I'm not a big fan of torture scenes.
35:03
No, that's fair. They're good for establishing.
35:05
I mean, like, they're good for establishing some things, but
35:08
like, my own personal feelings on the subject aside, the main
35:11
thing I've always struggled with is like, it's a level.
35:15
It's a level to which you got to really wonder at a certain
35:19
point. Are they?
35:25
It's a level that you got to wonder at a certain point if
35:28
like, the author isn't living out a very specific catharsis.
35:33
Yeah, I, I also, I have, I have my barometer on things like that
35:37
is so fucked because I'm just the weirdo who watches horror
35:40
movies for fun. I know, but in a horror movie,
35:45
you know, Chainsaw Jim is shoving spinning Blade up of
35:47
someone's asshole because that's just what he's there for, you
35:51
know? You don't really have to think
35:53
too hard about it. This is I got my own feelings
36:02
about the subjects that aren't really topical to it because it
36:05
doesn't even fucking matter in the end. 90% of the 90% of the
36:09
scenes up until, like the first, the last couple chapters of the
36:12
book are made entirely irrelevant by the bullshit that
36:15
is cascading our direction. Yeah, well, yeah.
36:20
Then essentially after they murder all of these people, hate
36:24
Pock, they're dragged to Lord Dad's personal prison chamber
36:28
and Shadra is tortured to torture Grayson.
36:32
Yeah, and it's like we learned that Shadra was the one that
36:36
killed his brother Booker. I felt like that could be cut
36:43
because it doesn't really add anything to them other than
36:47
giving them a little bit of tension for the next few
36:50
chapters. Oh no, I was so looking forward
36:54
to them getting together and. With what time?
36:59
Yeah, You know, I was. Yeah.
37:02
I'm so invested in these guys, this guy, these peoples who have
37:06
no fucking reason whatsoever to have any kind of relationship
37:11
despite it, except for the fact that the plot demands it.
37:15
Like, yeah, I am. I am.
37:19
I am, I am, I am so rapidly uninvested in the romance arc
37:27
here. I wasn't that news to begin
37:31
with, but I to be blunt, it adds nothing.
37:37
It adds absolutely nothing. Yeah.
37:40
So Alan and Lyra cannot find like they know kind of where
37:48
they are, but they can't get them out.
37:49
So that's when they're like bucket full speed ahead on the
37:52
plan. Yeah, so they go to the fucking
37:57
Jaegermeister, whatever his name was.
38:00
Just Jaeger. Right, because that's less
38:03
stupid and they're having their big no shit, somebody's watched
38:11
Pacific Rim. Someone took four years of
38:14
German in high school. And OK, I wasn't expecting.
38:20
I don't have a comeback for that.
38:24
I didn't know that, folks. I didn't know.
38:25
Like I said, I'm learning the deep Aubrey Lords.
38:28
I didn't know that. Yeah, my high school was like,
38:31
you want French, Spanish, German or Latin?
38:35
I shouldn't have done Latin. Yeah, tell me.
38:38
Yeah. And then you could tell me what
38:39
Hunter is in Latin. Yes, but also it's like I've
38:44
never used the German that I learned in four years.
38:47
I don't really remember most of it in my in my normal life.
38:50
So it's like Latin probably would have been.
38:53
How do you say bullshit in German?
38:55
Because what happens next at this fucking Revolutionary
38:58
Council meeting is some bullshit.
39:01
It certainly is something, yeah. It's so so.
39:07
Not only is Booker alive, not only has he basically been in
39:11
hiding in the boundary this entire time, but they come up
39:15
with some contrived fucking story full of people we've never
39:19
even heard of up until this point to explain why he's here.
39:24
And the moment his ass showed up, my immediate thought was
39:27
like, oh, you're a double agent aren't you?
39:32
I definitely thought that and I was like, I Mia was like, please
39:36
don't forget double agent. Because there's no goddamn way
39:40
good things happen to the protagonists and their best laid
39:44
plans in a fucking book like this.
39:46
Yeah, that's when I know there's a sequel.
39:51
Yeah. This was just one book.
39:55
It might have been. So yeah, the wedding is
40:00
happening essentially at gunpoint.
40:05
Situation spirals. I'm out of control when it turns
40:09
out Booker has been feeding Lord Dad the rebellion's plans.
40:16
Literally literally everything. Mickle remember him jumps in
40:22
front of a bullet for Grayson so I I guess he's fulfilled his
40:27
purpose. Goodbye dude.
40:30
I hate to see you go, but no, no, I, I literally.
40:38
I literally didn't really know literally too well.
40:41
Yeah, I can't come up with a quip because I know nothing
40:44
about this fucker other than apparently he's.
40:47
Grayson. 'S dad.
40:49
He's Grayson's dad, and now he's dead.
40:53
He. Had he had two chances at dad
40:56
and both of them ended at in not dad.
41:00
I thematically like Lyra's plan because it's very, very visually
41:07
striking and I think sends a good message.
41:11
Yeah, and the plan folks, essentially like the the the
41:15
wedding is actually being live streamed and she basically shows
41:19
off the essentially layers of scar tissue she has all of her
41:24
body from years of abuse to the, you know, the entire world.
41:30
But again. Many of the women in the crowd
41:33
do as well. Yeah, but as powerful and
41:36
affirming as you might think that is, it means absolutely
41:39
nothing in the long run because. Because Lord Dad pulls a just as
41:44
planned, and everybody gets dragged off.
41:50
And then we get to the final chapter.
41:57
Yeah. And I, again, I get what the
42:03
author is about here. I do.
42:08
I understand it. I understand the sentiment.
42:11
I understand the sheer fucking catharsis of it all.
42:13
But you've been building up this dude.
42:18
You've been building up Lord Dad.
42:20
It's just irredeemable prick. We've been waiting for Grayson
42:27
to do the protagonistly thing and fight his dad in an epic
42:31
confrontation, or for Shadra who was a very real personal stake
42:35
because Maximus was the one who'd fucking executed her
42:39
parents or fucked Lyra to. Has it also very good reason?
42:47
Because you know, we've been spending time or fuck even
42:50
Callum, honestly, because of what he found out what he did to
42:54
Lyra. You got pretty much all of our
42:58
POV characters are very good reasons to want this dude
43:03
absolutely obliterated. And the fact that it's a Laura
43:08
Sarol who gets the final the the final like victory lap.
43:17
So not only is it like a, not only is it like the third act
43:22
twist to crown all third act twists.
43:26
Well, to be blunt, I'm sorry but I just don't care about Alara.
43:33
Her only purpose in the narrative up until this point is
43:35
to show just what an absolute bastard man Lord Dead is.
43:40
And it's tragic what happened to her.
43:44
And I get that her situation is unfortunately, I mean, maybe not
43:48
to this degree, I hope, but it's still, you know, it's definitely
43:54
something that has quite a few real world parallels, let's just
43:59
say. But again, and I'm going to keep
44:05
tapping this sign, it seems just because it is realistic doesn't
44:10
mean it makes for a good story. We get maybe one hint that she
44:16
was secretly planning this the whole time.
44:19
We get we get a name, I think it's Python or something.
44:22
It's a code name that's a but we don't know who that is or who
44:27
that. We don't really get any real
44:29
hint that is her specifically because there's no time.
44:35
And yeah, she fucking she shoots Maximus unless he pulls out his
44:43
everything proof shield in the 1st chapter of the second book,
44:47
which honestly would not surprise me at this point
44:50
because dude is. Dude has stacked the fucking Uno
44:54
deck. Yeah, he's making every other
44:58
fucker here draw 5 to the point where it's honestly a little
45:03
comical. Yeah.
45:09
So it is so deeply narratively unsatisfying.
45:15
Yeah, I. And.
45:17
I I agree and disagree, but yeah, we'll definitely get into
45:21
it. And the fact that all of the
45:23
people that we OK hesitate to say care about but have been
45:28
writing along with for the better part of like 500 pages
45:32
get dragged out to fuck knows where.
45:34
Mostly I think just for the set, the the Red Wedding of it all.
45:39
Because I'll be honest, that's kind of what it felt like.
45:42
Yeah. God, the why is it that's OK
45:49
viewing public. Sincerely, I I need you to
45:53
actually fucking read the The Song of Ice and Fire books.
45:58
I I need you to actually like read them.
46:02
Because there's a reason. Why your your opinions on R
46:06
Martin is inability to finish it aside, there's a reason why so
46:09
many people die in those books and it's not just fucking shock
46:14
value I I feel. Like I admit I've never read the
46:21
books or watched the TV show. Yeah, well, I feel like a lot of
46:25
people watch the TV show and then immediately took all the
46:28
long rest, all the but turning into fucking.
46:32
I'm so, so steamed. I'm turning into scooby-doo rut
46:35
ro like fuck Scoob. Yeah, just like there is a
46:48
reason why so many people die in Game of Thrones and the
46:53
associated sequels. And it has nothing to do with
46:58
shock value or even really just fucking cynicism.
47:05
Not saying that it's necessarily a magnum opus, but it is.
47:12
I feel like there's a trend of just going fuck you to your main
47:17
characters in the final act of name a thing purely for the oh
47:22
shit moment of it all. And it is.
47:27
I'm tired y'all, I'm, I'm tired. Oh, too many.
47:31
I'm bad. Yeah, I'm tired of it, Grandpa.
47:40
Yeah, it's, it's the vicious cycle of movies influencing TV,
47:46
which influence, you know, books, which movies, which
47:49
includes TV. You know, it's like the vicious
47:52
cycle. It's not good.
47:55
I mean, OK, the vicious cycle is nothing, but I mean like more
47:58
just the whole like making your characters suffer purely for the
48:02
sense of making the audience gasp is not actually narratively
48:05
competent. It it's barely even qualifies as
48:09
character development. It's mostly just like, well,
48:12
this will definitely be trending.
48:16
I just occasionally pick up an old draft for a book I was
48:22
writing and because it's either the first draft is done.
48:25
So I occasionally just go in and it just be like fuck it.
48:29
I have the weird. I have the the very focused ADHD
48:32
today. So I'm going to try and edit
48:34
another couple of pages. And I wrote it like 6 or seven
48:37
years ago. And it's very interesting going
48:41
back and like reading this and like the way I wrote it and what
48:47
I wanted to do with it was, is, is very interesting.
48:50
And I, I've been so buried, buried in it for so long.
48:55
I've just been like, well, I really hope that I've shown that
48:58
this character is rather sinister throughout the the
49:02
chapters they've appeared in, so that when they do come in and
49:05
finally, like show that they are a villain and have been
49:08
masterminding things for a little bit, it makes fucking
49:11
sense. Yeah, like, twists like that
49:17
really only work if if the audience can draw a Direct Line
49:24
between that and OK, here's where the here's where, you
49:30
know, the dominoes started to fall.
49:33
Yeah, yeah, 'cause I was in in this this book, it was, it just
49:41
falls into the genre of new adult romance.
49:44
And it is very much just like I wanted to try and write a story
49:50
where it's not either of the two main characters, like personal
49:54
flaws that like drive them apart.
49:57
It's choices that they've both made in their past that come
50:01
back to lock them. Yeah, like, again, it's all
50:04
about, it's all about a good twist is all about consequences.
50:09
Like in fucking Game of Thrones, the reason why Ned gets his head
50:12
chopped off is because he will not shut the fuck up.
50:15
Yeah. In fucking I don't know what's a
50:19
good example in Red Rising. The reason why Darrow gets
50:22
absolutely slimed in the second book is because everybody keeps
50:25
telling him don't trust this dude, he's a psychopath and lo
50:31
and behold, he. Was a psychopath.
50:33
He trusts the dude and he was a psychopath about it.
50:38
Like it that there's a difference between there's a
50:44
difference between making your characters incompetent and
50:47
making your characters culpable. Yeah.
50:51
I don't want our main characters to be these ultra competent
50:54
badasses because, well, we have no control over our own lives.
51:00
But it doesn't really make for a good story is the problem.
51:05
Yeah. I mean like related to this,
51:08
this draft of where you're at because like I don't know if
51:09
I'll publish it. So the like, it's hard to spoil
51:13
something that I don't know if I'll ever like actually release,
51:15
but it's just like creating flood characters who you know,
51:20
their, their downfall is because of their own choices, because
51:24
the the mailman character blackmailed this person years
51:28
years ago to essentially because he ran a tech company.
51:32
And so it's really blackmailed this person to sell the shares
51:36
because he had compromising information on them.
51:39
And so that comes back to taunt him in this.
51:44
And you know, and I wanted to show that like, because the, the
51:48
female main characters kind of spends the entire book building
51:51
up the male main character in her mind as this very just like
51:55
I, I, I refer to it in the text as like building him up like an
51:59
Olympian God, like he cannot do any wrong.
52:01
He's so great. And then sees the moment where
52:04
it's like, oh, the sins of the past have come to root.
52:07
And that's when she's like, no, I can't do this.
52:09
I'm breaking up with you. Yeah, See that?
52:13
That's good. That's a, that's good fiction
52:16
right there. Whereas Daggermouth, Shadra and
52:20
Grayson have no agency. And one could make the argument
52:23
that's kind of the point. But I would argue that it also
52:28
makes it so they're just kind of, they're not really
52:31
protagonists, they're just kind of here.
52:34
Stuff just happens to them. They're not allowed to make the
52:39
choice because choices are made for them and I.
52:44
Know that's it's I know that's part of it.
52:47
That's kind of the point, you know?
52:50
But again, there's there's realism and then there's some
52:59
form of fucking for similitude, which I think a lot of people
53:05
forget because I think one of the smartest things I've ever
53:08
heard is that the main characters or whatever you're
53:11
writing don't know what genre they're in.
53:14
Exactly. So they're not going to.
53:21
And if you go from there, then it's pretty then.
53:25
And given just how fucking irrational humans are generally,
53:28
it's not a stretch to make your characters do things that, yeah,
53:32
are definitely not the smartest given the situation.
53:37
Characters will make suboptimal decisions based on information
53:42
they have, and no character has all information.
53:45
And a lot of people think very emotionally or they like no one.
53:50
Not everyone thinks logically like a lot of people think of
53:54
very emotionally. And you could argue that Shadra
53:59
can't really do anything because she is literally being kept
54:02
prisoner. You could argue that Grayson
54:04
doesn't really try to do anything because he's so
54:07
traumatized and like, OK, sure, but how is that interesting to
54:15
read? Yeah, like there there are.
54:18
There are moments. I think the dagger mouse just
54:21
needed like one more pass of the editor to tighten things up and
54:26
change a few things, tweak a few things.
54:29
And I think it would be a really, really good book.
54:31
I think it's almost there. I'm really good book, but I'm
54:36
not saying it's like 5 stars best book I've ever read, but
54:39
like a really good book and I think it just is tightening up
54:42
and. They were so much nicer than I
54:45
am. Generally, yes.
54:50
I just, yeah. The only time I've ever mean is
54:53
when I'm running a game. Yeah, this ain't it, guys Like
54:59
this is. I do not find this.
55:06
I do not find this worth an afternoon.
55:11
Yeah, it took you 2 afternoons. Yeah, and that was only because
55:15
I waited literally to the day before recording.
55:17
I'm like, fuck, OK, I guess I'll finish it.
55:20
Yeah. No, I think there are there are
55:23
good examples of books out there that have sort of the same
55:26
similar of two characters who are spending the the majority of
55:31
the like at least partially, like at least half of the book
55:35
imprisoned and unable to do things.
55:38
And you know it's it is possible to do this.
55:44
My own disinterest with romance, outside which my own
55:50
disinterest. I'm married.
55:54
Yeah. How the fuck did that happen?
55:58
I don't know, maybe we should have Alex on the show.
56:00
Yeah, maybe we should get my wife in here and like, hey, what
56:07
the fuck's going on? Yeah, my own, but I don't know,
56:11
my own disinterest with romantic subplots aside is probably a
56:16
better. I'm not I'm.
56:18
I'm just maladjusted. I'm not completely fucking
56:21
unfeeling. OK, yeah, sure.
56:26
Yeah, I I don't like this. It's so very, very joyless, and
56:37
the only purpose of the romance arc, as far as I can tell, is to
56:41
provide adequate masturbation material.
56:44
Which I mean, is fine, but then could you please stop building a
56:48
plot around it? You want?
56:52
How much plot do you want with your porn?
56:54
I none. I don't watch it for the plot.
56:59
I'm here for one reason and one reason only, and it ain't to
57:02
find out the motivation of the pizza man.
57:06
Stop trying to give the pizza man a tragic back story I guess
57:09
is what I'm trying to say. Yeah.
57:11
Some people just like extra sausage, yeah.
57:14
Exactly. You know, I think this this
57:17
takes us pretty good into like wrapping up our thoughts on the
57:20
book and giving it a. Blood bag rating?
57:25
God I don't know, like 2 blood bags if I'm being generous.
57:32
Give it somewhere between like 3 1/2 and 4.
57:37
I think the main thing for me is just like the final act was just
57:40
such a confusing mess that pretty much killed any potential
57:45
enthusiasm I might have had. Hell, we don't even Lord Dad I'm
57:49
pretty sure just gets murked off screen so I don't even get that.
57:54
Come on, I wanted to see them kill Emperor Palpatine.
57:57
Why couldn't we just have had that?
58:01
Is that? Really asking for?
58:02
Is that really asking for too much?
58:05
Apparently. Man, somebody just really got to
58:11
somebody like really got to just, we got to fucking find a
58:15
better way of portraying rebellions in fiction.
58:19
No wonder everybody thinks rebellion against the powers
58:21
that be so fucking hopeless. I mean, look at the media
58:23
examples we've got of it. We have Andor.
58:29
Andor's good, but Andor's also Andor's realistic.
58:34
Yeah, Andores is about as realistic as Star Wars could get
58:36
without having, well, the dagger mouth problem.
58:41
No, I mean, like as somebody who's actively running a
58:44
campaign that is all built around rebellion, and that it
58:50
is, it is a very, very fine line to walk.
58:53
Yeah, like you're allowed to have the underdogs win, you
59:01
know, exactly that. That is kind of the whole reason
59:07
for these sort of plots. Yeah, it feels like maybe this
59:13
is just. Yeah, and maybe this is just my
59:16
cynical ass, but it feels like, I don't know, man.
59:21
It feels like hope has just become a dirty word.
59:25
No, I could see that. Like just, I don't know, but
59:28
just based on like media portrayals especially, it just
59:31
feels like if you have the audacity, the nerve to suggest
59:35
that things might get better, have that man tarred and
59:41
feathered immediately. But yes, getting into our book
59:46
for next month we will be reading House of Rain by Harley
59:51
LaRue. Good The return of the
59:55
prehensile demon penis. This one I don't think has
59:58
monster fucking. God damn it.
1:00:04
Well, what the fuck else am I going to be reading Harley LaRue
1:00:07
for? This one has saphicness that's.
1:00:15
Good too, but I. I said I don't think, I don't
1:00:20
know, I have not read this book yet.
1:00:23
I just. One of them could be a monster,
1:00:27
one of them could be a demon in disguise.
1:00:29
Who the fuck knows. Look my.
1:00:31
Problem with her first book was that there was too much plot
1:00:35
getting in the way of the monster.
1:00:36
Fucking OK, according to. Raw according to Romance dot IO
1:00:44
for For House of Rain, they have rated it on their spice scale 5
1:00:50
Explicit and plentiful. I'll be the fucking judge of
1:00:54
that. Yep.
1:00:57
But yes, a gothic sapphic romance meets supernatural
1:01:01
suspense on a remote island of the Pacific Northwest as a night
1:01:05
of forbidden passion opens a Pandora's box of dangerous
1:01:07
secrets and magic in the sinfully spicy standalone novel
1:01:10
by Harley LaRue, the. Pacific West.
1:01:15
Yeah, I mean, I think Harley lives at the specific Northwest,
1:01:18
so I think it's just right. What you know content warnings
1:01:24
for this book just before you get in.
1:01:27
We have graphic violence, mental trauma, queer phobia, religious
1:01:30
trauma, death, slash grief, animal death, mental illness,
1:01:33
slut shaming, and torture. Is that all?
1:01:39
Yes, I believe so. OK.
1:01:43
And no, no elongated sex rope, huh?
1:01:51
Not that we're aware of yet. Not even like a comically large
1:01:55
strap on. There might be.
1:02:00
I just, I miss. I'm so depressed after this
1:02:05
fucking book man. I just want some good old
1:02:07
fashioned bullshit romance to tide me over.
1:02:13
This feels, this feels like it. And the fun twist for all of you
1:02:18
audiences once we get to June. June is my birthday month, so it
1:02:22
means I get to pick the book and I've chosen a doozy.
1:02:29
Why did MASFID have to be away at fucking award season?
1:02:32
I thought. She's clearly better equipped to
1:02:34
handle this than I am. I think Miss Sid will be back,
1:02:38
maybe not next month, but I think in June maybe we'll have
1:02:43
other other, other victims. Please I need a buffer.
1:02:48
This. This woman is so fucking down.
1:02:51
Horrendous. I swear to God when we get to
1:02:56
August I'm going to make you fuckers read Ulysses or
1:02:59
something just to get back at you.
1:03:03
I look forward to it. I'm probably not going to
1:03:07
subject anybody to that. I don't know, man.
1:03:10
You. Said Red Rising.
1:03:11
I'll read Red Rising I. Like Red Rising, it's, I mean,
1:03:15
OK honestly I have my problems with the first book, but it it
1:03:19
does get better later. Good space opera.
1:03:23
Eventually. Eventually.
1:03:26
We will see. I am also a massive fucking
1:03:30
hypocrite so. Yeah, I mean, I, I look forward
1:03:35
to reading House of Rain. I have the the nice fancy book
1:03:41
from when it launched last year. I have not read it yet.
1:03:43
I've read some of our other stuff.
1:03:48
But yeah, certainly see everybody in two weeks for the
1:03:52
first half of House of Rain and hopefully we have some victims.
1:04:00
At least some buffers. So yeah, we will see everybody
1:04:09
then. See ya, just rewatch and or
1:04:14
it'll probably make you feel better about the state of
1:04:16
things.