Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / The Girl Before Underbelly

Transcript

The Girl Before Underbelly · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Adam Shand. I love a mystery and a challenge, especially
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: if it involves trying to find a loved one. They
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: may not be a victim of crime, but someone who
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: through circumstances loses track of someone important to them. I
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: don't always succeed, but when I do... It's one of
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: the most satisfying parts of this job. So when Lee
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: McIntosh contacted me to say she was looking for her
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: long-lost father, whom she'd never met, I couldn't resist. Lee
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: also came with another set of stories that seemed to
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: mesh into hers. She'd been a youth worker in the
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Frankston area of Melbourne, and she understood the impact of
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: family breakdown and tragedy on a young person's life, because
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: she experienced the same thing. Among the many kids she'd
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: worked with was a name that became synonymous with the
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: underbelly story. She was known as Roberta Williams in that story.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: But when Lee knew her, she was a rebellious and
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: defiant 15-year-old named Roberta Merziker. We talked about Roberta's prequel
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: story and the search for Lee's lost father in a
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: recent interview. Lee McIntosh, welcome to Real Crime.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Absolute pleasure. We're going to talk about finding your dad,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: but also I wanted to touch on some of your
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: work with troubled youth and the Frankston area and Frankston generally.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: We'll get to that down the track and some names
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: that people will know, as I said in the intro,
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: and we'll talk about your insights, which is really great
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: to share. But let's start with your mission, why you're
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: here today. How can I help?
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: So my mother had me when she was 19. She'd been...
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: in Daylesford convent since she was five and they released
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: her when she was 18. When she got out she
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: found this really cool guy on a motorcycle, fell in
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: love with him, jumped on the back of the cycle
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: and they rode into the sunset. She told her family
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: that she was pregnant and had to marry him so
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: she married him. They gave her permission to marry. She
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: actually wasn't pregnant at the time but A short time later,
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: she became pregnant with me and he had already nicked off.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Why? I'm not sure why. I think he was, well,
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: I know that he was a bit naughty as a
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: teenager and I know that he'd done some car bergs
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: and stuff like that. He was on the IBR with
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: the police.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: IBR? What's IBR?
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: It's their record system.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: Where they keep all the records of offenders.
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: So he was on that and then he just disappeared.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: Nobody knew where he was. This is in the 50s
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: and so she took herself to hospital on the train
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: to have me, had me, was a single mum. There
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: was no single parent benefit at that point in time.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: So she had to work and that sort of was
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: her life for many years. I didn't start looking for
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: him properly until a couple of years ago.
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: Why?
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Because I had done a little bit of a dabble around,
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: you know, the voting register, all that kind. And I
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: could never, never find anything. And I just kind of thought, oh, well,
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: that's it. I had a stepfather. I asked my mother
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: to tell me about my father because I don't look
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: like anybody else in my family. So I said to her,
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: can you tell me anything about him? And she just said,
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: she dismissed it and said, oh, that was so long ago.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: I can't remember any of that. So that kind of
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: shut me down. What year was this roughly? That would
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: have been in the 80s. Right.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: In the 70s, when I was just a kid, I
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: got a letter one day from some bloke who told
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: me that my grandmother had passed away. So she was my...
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: natural father's mother but he was adopted so so you
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: know life went on and then a couple of years
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: ago I've got a friend who's really into family history
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: genetics all that kind of stuff and she said oh
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: I can we'll find him I'll just do my thing
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: and we'll find him well she's nearly torn her hair
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: out because she's actually used to finding people and she
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: can't find anything about him nothing.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: So the DNA has been done, family tree, building and
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: so forth, come up with nothing?
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: Nothing, absolutely nothing. Loads of information about my mother's side
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: of the family, but nothing about my natural father. He
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: was born in 36. He was born to a 17-year-old
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: mum who had an affair with a 27-year-old married man.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: Of course, he didn't want to know anything about it.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: And so she put him up for adoption when she
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: had him.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: And how did you learn all this?
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Through getting in touch with the state government. As a
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: person of an adopted person, you are able to access
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: their records through the state government. So I went there
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: and I had a fantastic woman helping me and she
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: discovered quite a bit of stuff, but nothing that led
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: to now so I learned about I've got lots of
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: information about his natural mother his natural father his father's
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: side of the family got a little bit of information
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: about his mother but not a lot so he was
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: born Vance Leroy Barnes I think that is such a
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: cool name it is I think it's such a cool name.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: Vance Leroy Barnes is a great name what happened next.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: He went to a children's home. She actually went to
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: a home for unwed mothers during her pregnancy and stayed
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: there until she had him. When she had him, she
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: put him up for adoption. He went to a children's home.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: I think he may have gone to two children's homes.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: I'm not exactly sure. And he was eight months old
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: before he became adopted. So that was the beginning for him.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: And he got another name at that point?
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: James David Palmer, which was then changed to James David Goss.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: But as a young person and adult, he went by Dave.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: How do you know this?
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: Because my auntie told me.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: So she knew a little bit about you.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: She did, and she told me he was very creative,
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: and I'm quite creative. She told me that he was left-handed.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: I'm the only person in my family who's left-handed, and
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: now a couple of my grandchildren are. But she couldn't
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: really remember much else. She also told me that the
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: story was that he ran away with the bridesmaid. Uh-oh.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: Whether that's actual or not, I don't know, but it's
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: a great story. So I've tried to find her, but
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: I don't actually really know her. I think her last
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: name was May. I'm not sure. And then.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: And this is all taking place in the Frankston area?
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: No, it was actually in Bentley.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: In Bentley.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: And I remember the address, 47 Nicholson Street, Bentley, because
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: I used to go to my Nana's place a lot.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: So I don't know how I remember that. But, yeah,
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: they lived in Bentley.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: So.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: He had got in trouble as a 14-year-old for pinching
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: cars and, you know, a bit of joy, riding, all
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: of that kind of stuff. And then, as I said,
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: he disappeared after the marriage. I wasn't born yet. So
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: I don't think he knows that he has a daughter.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: And he could still be alive.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: He could be, but he'd be well into his 80s.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: In 1936, 2026, that would make him 90. Yeah. What
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: if someone knows him, though, or did he have other children?
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: Look, I kind of feel certain that he's got other children.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, he was very young, 21, when he ran away.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: I think that he probably got into another relationship. Maybe
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: he got married again. They did get divorced, so maybe
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: he married again or not. I'm sure he would have
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: had children.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: I also wonder whether he committed more criminal offences, maybe
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: in other states, even overseas.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: Have you done that kind of a search? Have you
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: contacted with all these people? You've got three or four
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: different names to use. And a pretty decent criminal alias,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: Vance Leroy Barnes.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: Don't you love it?
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: Sounds like a big bad Leroy Brown.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And for her to have been 17 and given
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: him that name, I just think, How cool. That's a
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: really cool name. And so he could be using Vance
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: Leroy Barnes, or he could be using James David Palmer,
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: or he could be using David James Goss. I mean,
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: so many variables in it. That's what makes it hard
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: to follow up.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: It is. And you've done everything.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: As much as I can do or know how to do,
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: no one has given me any other ideas around more
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: that I could do. But I thought, I really thought
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: that the DNA thing would bring up some people.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: Well, yes. absolutely. And the database is getting so big
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: now that even if it's not direct relatives, you get
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: the third and fourth and fifth cousins popping up and
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: you can work your way, build a family tree. And
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: this is how crimes are being solved as well. And
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: people are being identified. I guess it probably, I mean,
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: I'd love to say I've got a suggestion for you,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: but I think you have to put it out to
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: the universe, which you're kind of doing today.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: Which is fantastic.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'd love to see what happens. We don't
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: know what we don't know at this moment, but I
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: think there's probably somebody out there who does know.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: There must be, mustn't there? Like how does a person
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: just disappear into the ether for like 70 years? It's crazy.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: The answer is they don't. You've just got to find
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: the trail. And I think you're dealing obviously with an
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: era of paper records and often things get lost and
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: destroyed and things and they're slowly being digitised. And that's
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: the interesting thing is mysteries that were in an analogue
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: form five or ten years ago are now being digitised.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: And so it's quite possible that the answer will come.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: And I'll put it out to the audience now that
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: if you knew a Vance Leroy Barnes or the other
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: name's David.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: James David. palmer james david goss yeah there's three names
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: that he was given when he was little yeah so
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: it's tough like i don't have like i see some
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: people on tv shows and they're or in my life
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: that are absolutely desperate and torn apart because they've been
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: adopted or they don't know a natural parent i don't
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: feel that way i don't feel like absolutely need to
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: know It's more of it would be nice to know.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: It would be nice to know if I belonged to
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: another family. It would be nice to know what he did.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: What happened to him?
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. It would just be nice to know. And
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: also I've had some really serious illnesses. No one else
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: in my family, my mother's side of the family, no
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: one has had the things that I've had. And so...
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: Does that come from him? I don't know.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Well, that's really important now because these are now being
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: used as markers for future illnesses in children.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: You've got your children and grandchildren, so that's an important
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: aspect to know as well. But, I mean, what would happen, though, if,
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: for chance, he is alive and he turns up? How
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: would that be for you now? I'm curious.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: Oh, my God. I think it would be really, really emotional.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: A few years ago, I went to the church that
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: my mother and father were married in, which is St.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: Finbar's in Brighton. I wanted to access their marriage certificate
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: because I thought maybe the bridesmaid's name would be on
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: that certificate and then I could go down that path.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: When I went there, the priest went through, because I
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: know the date that they were married. So I told him,
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: he looked through a great big book full of papyrus
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: certificates marriage certificates and he found their certificate when he
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: found it he said is this it and I looked
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: at it and yep right names I just fell apart
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: I cried and cried and cried and he put his
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: arms around me and I thought oh my god is
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: he going to do something.
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: To me while I'm vulnerable and fragile but he didn't
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: yeah so I you know it's I find it really
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: interesting that have I got all that emotion that I've
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: just pushed down, pushed down, pushed down all my life.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: And if I met him, would all of that come out?
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: I kind of think it might. I kind of think
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: it might.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: I'm sure it would. I'm sure it would. And I've
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: been through this before. Listeners may remember the episode with
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Kelly Carter-Bell we did earlier this year where she'd had
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: a very tragic upbringing. Her father was a police officer
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: who had moved in on her mother when Her mother's
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: criminal partner was taken to jail by this police officer.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: And when the crook got out of jail, the policeman
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: scarpered to Western Australia, as it turned out. And she
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: hadn't seen or heard from him for 40 plus years.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: I did the interview with her and she said, I'd
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: like to find my father. And I was lucky enough
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: to find him within about an hour.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: To old contacts, you know. So I'm greedy for more
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: experiences like that. But I don't know where to point
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: you at this moment other than to say the universe
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: might provide an answer. And I think for your grandchildren
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: and for you, these questions of identity are really, really important.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: And you had a great relationship with your stepfather.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: No, I didn't, actually. I thought he was a bastard
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: while I was a kid.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: I should have done more research on that one.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: So I didn't get on with my stepfather when I
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: was a kid and a teenager. I was actually a
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: neglected child and lived in a really, really disadvantaged situation.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: My mother married my stepfather because she was desperate to
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: be a legitimate person in society because she'd been a
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: single mum in the late 50s And that was frowned upon,
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: you know. So she really wanted to become legitimate. So
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: she went on a big hunt for a husband and
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: she got him. So, yeah, as a teenager I hated him.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: But when my mother and father separated, I was pregnant
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: with my first child and he was devastated and he
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: was just drinking himself to death.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: Why was he devastated? Oh, part of the breakup. Yeah.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: And I had an empathy for him. And so I
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: started spending time with him. And then we got on
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: really well. I suppose I had a different attitude. He
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: was just himself. And we got on really well, which
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: is really nice because he died at 65. Really?
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: So you managed to forgive him? Mm-hmm.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: I had to because I could see what my mother
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: had done to him and I just thought, I just
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: felt for him. And I would go around to the
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: place that he was living just to drop in and
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: say hello and find him passed out in a puddle
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: of vomit because he just drank and drank and drank
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: and drank.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: Flagons.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: Flagons. flagons of red wine, you know, back in the
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: day when there were flagons. And I just felt for him.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: And I was having my first child. I wanted him
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: to know that. I wanted him to be with my kids.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: And I suppose I was a little bit more mature
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: as well. And yeah, we had a really nice relationship.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: He actually moved to the Philippines later.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: Did he?
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And he married a Filipino woman. And when I
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: told people that back then, they were like, oh my God,
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: And I used to say, don't worry, she wasn't 12.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: She was actually 50 when they got married.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: I see.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: And she was a principal of a school when he
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: moved to the Philippines and lived the rest of his
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: life out there.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: As brief as it was, only 65. Gee, you're a
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: good person, deserves a break.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Thank you. It'd be nice.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why I decided to do this. And I'm
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: not a finder of lost souls generally, although I do
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: like a challenge. And I think the answer is going
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: to be out there because I think when we talk
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: about identity and what happens to children from disadvantaged backgrounds
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: where there's not a sense of security and safety and stability,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: you understand that because you worked in this space down
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: in the Frankston area, which is a bit notorious. It
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: certainly is. As a breeding ground for crime and sort
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: of thing. How did you get involved in that sort
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: of work?
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: I actually trained when I was 14. I got kicked
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: out of school when I was 14 and I thought,
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: you can all get stuffed, I'm going to get a
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: job before my parents get home from work because they're
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: going to kill me. So I went into Frankston, went
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: around all hairdressing salons and got myself a hairdressing apprenticeship.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: So I did that until I was about 21 and
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: then I got sick of doing people's hair and I
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: saw an ad in the paper at a women's refuge
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: and it said, childcare coordinator. And I thought, I've got
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: a child, I can coordinate. That's a good job for me.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: So I kind of faked it till I made it.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: I got the job. in the women's refuge. And from that,
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: I thought, I want to do this stuff. You know,
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: the women that we had in the refuge would be
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: battered beyond recognition. Their faces would be black and blue
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: when they came in. They had children. The children were
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: often little brats, particularly when they came from European families.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: So I worked in in the ref for a couple
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: of years and it was highly feminist um so I
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: became highly feminist and I was you know in my
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: blue bib and brace kind of kind of gear and
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: I didn't wear a bra and I had posters all
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: up around my house about feminist things and I really
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: took it on board but I actually left the refuge
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: because it got too much they were real men haters
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: and I I'm not a men hater So from there,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: I went to do some voluntary work in a service
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: that was called the Family Aid Program. They worked with
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: vulnerable families. And because I was only like 23, I
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: was much, much younger than any of the other volunteers.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: And so they used to give me the young women
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: who had babies. And I loved working with those young women.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: And I had Lots, lots of young women that were
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: messed up.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: Lots.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: I remember one woman, she was pregnant and she had
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: a little girl who was about four and she came
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: into the office one day and she had cut with
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: some scissors just chunks out of her kid's hair. And
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: she'd taken the child off its epilepsy medication to see
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: if it really needed the medication. Then when she went
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: into hospital to have the baby, I went in to
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: visit her and she said, there's snakes, there's snakes all
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: over me and there's snakes in my belly and the
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: snakes are my baby. So she was obviously in psychosis.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: And we had to remove the children, which was horrible
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: because back in those days, the workers, me, removed the children.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: There was no child protection. There was the women police
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: and they were called the Mickey Mouse police by the
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: men police. So just get the Mickey Mouse police to
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: go and look at that family, you know. They were
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: so not respected and valued. So I worked very closely
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: with the women police during that time. And then I
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: went on to become a youth worker. I went for
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: a job at a place which was called Bayside... Bayside
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: Youth Supervision Unit. And it was a time of deinstitutionalisation.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: They were getting kids out of Wynlaton, out of Tarana,
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: out of all the children's homes. And the staff of
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: those places were coming into community work. They were institutionalised,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: the staff. They had no idea how to work with
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: kids in the community. We had the toughest kids that
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: the system had because we wanted to be able to
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: integrate them back into the community. So we needed to
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: get them out of the institutions, but they were institutionalised
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: as well. So they're pretty wild. And their offences were
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: really serious, like murders, assaults, theft. I had one kid
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: who buried the kittens of his cat He buried them
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: in the backyard and mowed their heads off with a lawnmower.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: Jeez.
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: That's not a good start. They say that kids that
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: do that kind of thing often go on to all
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: kinds of things, including serial killing and stuff like that.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Another kid, we had a cat at the centre
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: because we thought it'd be nice to have an animal
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: around so that the kids could, you know, relate to
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: the animal, take care of it. But I got to
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: work one day and a kid was there and he'd
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: put the cat in the oven and turned the oven on.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: So yeah, we had some very trouble.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: So really in the current context where we have a
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: lot of talk about youth offending and like it's a
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: crime crisis and like they've been just dropped from outer
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: space and it's there were the good old days then
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: there's now i guess you'd say we've always had the
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: same issues maybe not so visible.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: A hundred percent back then there was no social media
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: there wasn't any internet oh geez i'm old So there
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: was no internet. There was no social media. If it
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: didn't get in the paper, then no one would know.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: No one would know what those kids were up to.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: So nowadays, the difference is we've got social media. We've got,
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: you know, the internet. Everybody gets information. They're reported all
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: the time on the news, on TV. That never happened
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: back then. And so I think the community has developed
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: a perception that probably all young people little shits. And
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, look at all the crime they're committing. However,
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: there's always another side.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: There's a backstory. And I think that's certainly seeing these
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: kids today being turned into political pawns. You know, politicians
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: love dividing us and saying there's the problem and the
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: government hasn't solved it or vice versa. But you've seen
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: into the backgrounds. I think One of the first people
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: that I met when I was doing crime reporting was
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: Roberta Williams with Carl Williams back in the day when
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Carl was in the middle of his murderous run. And
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: I guess the way Kath Pettingill was seen in an
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: earlier generation, I think Roberta's held in a similar regard
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: that she's bad to the bone and all this type
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: of thing. And I never really agreed with that. I
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: could see the background. She gave me snippets of her
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: background growing up in Frankston where you were working and
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: you dealt with Roberta. At what age was she when
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: you first met her?
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: So I supervised Roberta. I know her background very well.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: I know her pretty well. She was around, I'd say, 15,
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: maybe 16 when she came into our program. She had
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: had multiple stays at Wynne-Leighton, which no longer exists, but
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: for people who don't know about Wynne-Leighton, it was a
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: girl's facility where girls who were offending or difficult wards
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: of the state would be placed. Roberta was a ward
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: of the state. She was extremely difficult to engage. She
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: was a wild child, absolutely. And of course, she'd been offending.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: She was very physical, so she would bash people all
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: the time. Huge temper. Huge temper.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, I've seen that. Oh, my goodness. The amount of
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: times that she's given me the broad edge of her
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: tongue and threatened to bash me. But she never did,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: mind you. Hopefully that's never going to happen.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: I hope she doesn't find out and bash me either. But, yeah,
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: she was very, very... full on. She would come through
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: the door and not just walk through the door, she
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: would smash the door open. It's almost like an announcement,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: I have arrived. And then she would walk down the
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: corridor swearing and abusing people and telling everyone to get
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: fucked and all this sort of thing. And then I
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: was required to work with her. I remember one time
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: we set her and another young woman up in a
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: small flat in Frankston. And Roberta had absconded and we
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: didn't have mobile phones in those days either. And I
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: was looking for her high and low because we were
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: responsible for her as a ward. We were a government organisation.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: So we were responsible for her as a ward of
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: the state. and because of her offending. So I was
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: running around Frankston all over the place looking for her,
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: finding who she used to hang out with to see
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: if they knew where she was. And I got a
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: phone call one day and.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: After how long?
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, probably a week, about a week. I got this
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: phone call and she's like, it's Bertie. I'm like, where
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: the hell have you been? And she said, oh, I'm
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: in Perth. I'm like, you're what? what do you mean?
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: I said, I can, you know, I can breach you.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: I can breach you and you'll be back in Wynlaton.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: What are you doing in Perth? She said, I wanted
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: a holiday. So her and another girl had hitchhiked to Perth.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: The phone call was to request an airfare to get
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: back to Melbourne.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: Because she knew how the system worked. Correct.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: She knew we had to bring her back to Melbourne.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: So we set up a flight and she came back
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: to Melbourne and And she threatened me, if you breach me,
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: I'll hunt you down. I'll hunt you down. I'm like, okay, okay,
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: I won't breach you. But listen, you can't do that.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: Go back to the flat, you know, with your mate
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: and just get on with it. Report in when you're
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: meant to report in. Work with us and I won't
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: breach you. And off the radar again for a few days.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: So I went to the flat that they were living in.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: And I said to her, listen... this isn't on. I'm
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: going to breach you and you're going to go back
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: to Wynne-Leighton. You can't just keep doing this. Her and
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: the other girl smashed every piece of furniture in that flat.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: While I'm standing there ducking and weaving, not to get
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: hit by a chair or a couch or whatever, they
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: completely trashed the joint. And then she said, all right,
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: I'm ready now. So I took her back to Wynne-Leighton.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: She got locked up again. So it's interesting that she
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: was so volatile.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to ask you, what do you think
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: that outburst represented? What was she saying with that?
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: She was pissed off. She didn't want to get locked
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: up again. She just didn't want to get locked up again.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know any girl that was in Wynne-Leighton or
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: any boy that was in Tarana who was happy to
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: go back. It wasn't a very pleasant experience back then.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: And it was the state, again, punishing her.
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: So this was her way, I guess, of swearing up.
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: At least in a venting or something, you know.
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: Let's take a step back though. At that stage, she
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: was Roberta Merzica.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: And she'd grown up in the Frankston area, more in
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: the Frankston area. Her father was a truck driver, Maltese guy,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: I understand.
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: Manny Merzica. Her mother, Dorothy.
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: She was an Aussie. Yes. For want of a better phrase, term.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: And the way that I knew the story that she
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: told me going back 20 years was that her father
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: was in a truck accident and he was burnt to
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: death and slowly died over days and that was the
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: end of any security in her life that her mother,
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: and I think she was one of six children and
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: her mother then had a series of boyfriends and De facto's.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: And she clashed with them, I understand. And then at
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: a certain point, she's made a war to the state.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: And that's when you step in.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: And so I've got an affection for her. People find
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: that funny. I could see through some of the bravado.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: She's got a big heart. Yeah. And I think she
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: was very loyal to her friends. Many people weren't loyal
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: to her. But she'd grown up with this chip on
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: her shoulder, and you could see that.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: All, I would say, oh well, not all, most of
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: the kids that we worked with, I could see the child,
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: the hurt child in them. And I used to say
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: to them, I know you're only little, you're little inside,
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: you're a little kid in a bigger body and you're frustrated, angry, disappointed,
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: the world hasn't been good to you including your own
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: family I can see that in you and I can
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: help you get through that if you do the things
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: that you're meant to do and those things are absolutely
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: required because of where you've been locked up because of
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: the orders from the court that you're on and that
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: kind of set me in good stead with a lot
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: of those kids and it helped me develop a relationship
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: with them to hopefully steer them in the right direction.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: So during that time, I spent a lot of time
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: at court because we were always going back to, we
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: had to do reports for the court around the progress
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: of that young person and whether or not they were
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: going to stay in the community. So, you know, I
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: had a lot of responsibility. I could have easily breached
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: many kids' But I didn't want to because I thought
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: they were really worth putting in for.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: Because what happens after that, and I guess you left
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: with no choice with Roberta. She was breached and went
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: back to Wynne-Leighton. And I guess you lose track of
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: her after that? Yeah.
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: Except, so I knew her older brother, Mick. I knew
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: her older sister, Sharon.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: I knew Sharon as well. She was a great lady.
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: So Sharon was a ward also. She was a firecracker.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: She was a firecracker as well. So I kind of knew.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: them as well. And yeah, after Roberta finished her probation,
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: that's when I lost track of her. Apart from a
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: couple of social events that I went to where the
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: family was there, I tried to keep a really low
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: profile at those places. So it was very interesting for
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: me to see the path that she took with Carl
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: and all the stuff that she got into. Well, it's interesting,
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: isn't it?
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: Because the I remember talking to her about Carl, obviously,
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: who was this fearsome character who was eventually gangland serial killer,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: if you like. And she said, well, he's the most
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: gentle person I've been with. And it was the first
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: time she felt a sense of security. A, because there
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: was material comfort, there was money and there was a
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: place for her kids. And she'd been in abusive relationships
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: where she'd suffered a lot of domestic violence, a lot.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: So again, I mean, I'm not, I don't rush to
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: judge people. It's so easy just to label them and
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: say they're bad to the bone and so on and
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: so forth, but it's just not really helpful. And I
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: think we were talking before the interview about people should
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: rehabilitate themselves and they need to be better and they
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: find some model to work against. But if they've never
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: been habilitated, then how on earth do they rehabilitate themselves?
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: It's a new education. It's a new process. And I'm
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: sure Roberta fits into that category because she'd never known
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: any security, never known any safety.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: No, that's right. And having been in the system from
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: such a young age, you know, when she, I think
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: she was about 12 when she was made a ward
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: because she was just out of control. Like she just
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: did whatever the hell she wanted and her mother couldn't
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: deal with her. And that's when she entered the system.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: So when you think about a young person who's been
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: in that system since they were like 12 and then,
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: and experienced a lot of incarceration, which she had, They're
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: going to be institutionalised. They're not used to people caring
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: about them. They're not used to any affection or anybody
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: believing in them. And that's where that service was so amazing.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: It was the first of its kind in Australia. And
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: it was a bit of a trial run to see
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: if we could work with these kids and send them
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: back out into the community to live useful, happy lives.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: That worked with some, and obviously it didn't work with others.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: Well, I hope that she's found some peace in her
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: life these days because she's not in the headlines anymore.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: She had a couple of, you know, diversions back into
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: the justice system, but I think she's through all that
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: now and you would hope that she does find some
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: peace in her life because I don't think anyone who
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: thinks her life has been glamorous is off their heads.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: This is not anything to emulate and she would be
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: the first one to say that.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I think so. Like, Even though
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: she's done a lot of crazy stuff, she actually tells
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: it as it is, which is one of the things
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: I kind of liked about her. And a lot of
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: the kids that I worked with were like that. I
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: remember one kid I worked with, he was 13, and
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: the coppers hated him, hated him because he was a smartass,
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: he wasn't afraid of anything, and he had done... Back then,
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: in the 80s, he had done $ 500, 000 worth of damage
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: to trains because he was a graffiti artist. So he
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: got sent to me. By then, I was a youth
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: outreach worker, actually. And I used to spend a lot
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: of time on the streets talking to kids or chasing
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: kids or whatever. This kid was referred to me from
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: the court. They were going to incarcerate him. And they
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: gave him a stay and said, we'll send you to
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: Lee and we'll get her to do a report on
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: how well you've managed yourself since these issues. He, I
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: would have to say, was the hardest kid that I've
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: ever worked with to try and engage with. Usually I
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: engage with young people easily, really well. But this kid,
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: I'd have him in my room and he just wouldn't engage. Anyway,
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: he didn't get incarcerated. So I finished my work with
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: him and life goes on. About, I don't know, maybe
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: 10 years ago, I was actually working with the Salvos
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: in St Kilda. And I got a phone call from
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: my PA one day saying, There's someone on the phone
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: who wants to talk to you. I'm like, okay, who
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: is it? And she said his name, which is a very,
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: very unusual name. And I thought, I only know one
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: person with that name. So she put him through and
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: he said, hello, is that Lee McIntosh? I'm like, yeah.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: He said, were you a social worker back in the day?
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: I go, yeah. And he said, it's me. And he
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: said his name. It's me. And I'm like, what?
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: What? What?
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: And it was like 25 years since I'd worked with him.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: And I said, how on earth did you find me?
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: And he said, I just dug and dug and dug
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: until I found you. I said, that's amazing. What are
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: you doing with yourself? He said, I live in the Bahamas.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: I'm a really well-known artist. I've got three kids. My
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: paintings go for 300 grand at a time in New York.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: I'm in New York a lot because of selling my art.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: And I'm doing really well. And I just wanted to
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: tell you, I was thinking about people who made a
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: difference in my life as a kid. He said, you're
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: the only person that really took an interest in me.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: And I said to him, you know what? You were
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: the hardest kid I've ever had to work with. And
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: I said to him, and going to court with you,
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: I really took a bet, you know, like I wasn't
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: sure that you were going to clean up, but I
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: didn't want to see you incarcerated. What turned you around?
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: And he said, can I swear?
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: He said to me, I was in your office one day.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: It was just before I went to court. And he said,
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: I think you lost your temper with me. And you
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: said to me, listen to me, you little shit. If
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: you don't fucking pick yourself up, you're going to be fucked.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: You're going to jail and I won't be there for
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: you then. And you're going to be with the big
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: boys and you don't want to do that. Let me
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: tell you, you don't want to do that. And he said,
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: at that point, I thought, oh, she must be all right.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: She's telling me how it is. So I'll do what
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: she tells me to do. And I thought, like, as
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: a youth worker, it's a thankless job because you do
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: the work with the kids and off they go. And
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: you never know whether your work has worked, whether they're
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: out of trouble, in trouble. You just don't know.
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: So....
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: To get a phone call 25 years after I'd worked
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: with a kid was pretty amazing.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: Very gratifying.
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: Very.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: And I'm sure there are probably more than just this
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: guy out there. So if you do recognise the name,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Lee McIntosh, you worked with her back in the day
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: in the Frankston area, the Pines in particular, why don't
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: you get in touch? We can make some magic here.
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: Adam Shander, writer at gmail.com. I might even switch up
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: with Roberta again. This is a moment of reunions.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: That would be hilarious.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: Would it?
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: That would be so funny.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: Now, Bert, if you listen to this, please don't arc up.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: We do this in a good way. This is all
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: with a good heart involved. So please, you can get
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: in touch with me as well and we'll set this up.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: But I really want to reiterate this. The reason why
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: you're here today is to look for your dad and
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: I think the way these stories have meshed, I think
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: I understand very clearly why you at this age want
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: to resolve this. You've seen the issues with the lack
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: of resolution in people's lives, what that looks like, and
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: you had a terrific functional life and I thank you
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: for the work you've done with kids and you're still
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: working with young people. You're involved in a local women's
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: football league as a welfare officer.
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: So you're still doing your gig, which is fantastic.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: It's amazing, really.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: So let's just quickly summarise the names that we're looking
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: for again so people can jot them down if they
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: haven't already. And really, if you're out there, just at
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: least ask somebody else. If you live in the Frankston
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: area or in the other area. Bentley. Bentley area in Melbourne,
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: we can make the little stones that get us across
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: the pond here. So ask a friend. Let's see if
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: we can get this one done. So give me those
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: names again.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: Vance Leroy Barnes. James David Palmer. James David Goss, but
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: he called himself Dave.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: Okay. Hopefully that's enough. I'll put that out there, people.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: I want to thank you today, Lee, for coming in.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: I'm really glad it took you. You sent me a
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: little message and I thought, oh, that's interesting. And I always,
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: that's the thing about this podcast now, guys, is it's
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: evolving from these sort of contacts. So don't be afraid
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: to contact me. We're not just doing the high-profile crimes
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: and glorifying people. the bad guys. There's a lot of
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: other things we're doing here, so please get in touch.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: And so if you know anything about this case, please
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: let me know and we'll see if we can help Lee.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: She deserves it. And I'm just bloody curious to know
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: what's happened to Vance Leroy Barnes. I hope he's kept
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: that name somewhere in the mix. And if you do know,
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: please get in touch. If you want to report a crime,
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: please call Crime Stoppers 1-800-333-000. You can also contact me,
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: as I said, adamshandwriter at gmail.com. You can also join
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: our rapidly evolving community on Facebook. I'm going to put
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: my link in the show notes. So please get in touch,
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: be a part of this. There's something happening with this
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: podcast and I'm really enjoying it. And today's a good
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: example of it. Thank you, Lee. And thank you to everyone.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: This has been Adam Shan for Real Crime. Thanks for listening.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode and supporting this story.
• 42:42
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• 42:45
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• 42:48
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• 42:52
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• 43:01
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