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Throwback Thursday: Flipping Properties And Momentum Investing With Peter Mare · The Property Unleashed Podcast

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Property Unleashed podcast with me, mark Fitzgerald, and today I have a guest joining me here.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: They are a duo, but I've only got one half of the duo today and it's Monica and Peter, who have a company called Keys to Doors.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: They specialize in JVs buy to sales, property sourcing and property staging in their business.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Monica is the creative one.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: She likes to make the properties look beautiful and she does a lot of the dressing.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: She runs the staging arm of the business, dressing HMOs, serviced accommodations and the properties that they flip.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: So they are all top quality and they get really good deals.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Peter focuses more on sourcing the deals and the numbers.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: So the nitty-gritty of it all.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: They operate in Sheffield and Manchester and have been investing since 2017.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: I have known them since 2018, when I met Peter at a property networking event, and we've stayed in touch and been friends ever since.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: So welcome to the show, peter.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: It's great to have you joining me here.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: It's such a privilege to be on your show, mark.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Like you say, we've met in 2018 and I think we were quite on the same boat fairly new to property investing at that time and we're very much peers and learning from each other.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Brilliant, brilliant.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: So I mean obviously I know a bit about you and everything I've given the listeners and the people watching this a bit of a high-level overview, but if you can just share a little bit about yourself, where you've come from your corporate life onto your property world, I grew up in South Africa.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: Monica grew up in Poland.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: We met in America where we lived for five years.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: There we went into hospitality and I worked as an area manager in Pizza Hut and then transferred over to England and since 2014, I've been since 2009,.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: We've been living in England and for the first 10 years of being here, we've been just working in the corporate world Monica within HR and myself within the hospitality sector as well as project management.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: Hospitality sector as well as project management, so a lot of interface with customers and also building new shops.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Work for companies such as starbucks and subway and pizza hut.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: And it's really been since 2017 where, like so many people, picked up that little book reach that word that when we went on to a holiday in Spain, you know just that couple of weeks that you get off in the year, take a small break, otherwise just grind and thinking that you will work until you are retired one day.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: But that really opened up a new field and a whole new world for us.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: And first we opened a coffee business, an online e-commerce coffee business but soon we started to learn about property investing and we just found that.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: we immediately saw that property investing is really the vehicle that will be able to get us to where we want to be Brilliant.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: I didn't know about a coffee thing, but I know you are quite a connoisseur of coffee, aren't you?
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I like my good cup of coffee.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: That's good, that's good.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: So I mean, when you started then coming out of the corporate world or looking at getting into property, what was your first thoughts and strategy behind it?
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: the first thing that I learned from um, from reading the book rich that poor, that is the importance of education and first educating yourself.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: I thought I knew about property investing but my golly, I can't believe how much there is to it People completely underestimate.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: So I think what we did was spend a good year to first just educate ourselves as much as possible.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: We paid for courses and read a lot of books and got to know the different strategies that's out there, and we soon realized that the buy refurb refinance strategy is quite a good way for us, especially that we had a little bit of equity in our home, so it made sense for us to put an offset mortgage.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: A little bit of equity in our home, so it made sense for us to put an offset mortgage to withdraw some funds out of our home to then go on and buy our first buy-to-let, and that was back in 2018.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: And was that just a flip, or did you convert that into anything?
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: That was a single let.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: So that's up in Preston and I still remember where we bought it for 68,000.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: It was just a two up, two down.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: We spent 14K on the refurb and it revalued for 100,000.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: So we left about 8,000 in the deal but getting a solid rent of 540.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: The mortgage is just over 200.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: So a nice 300 pound profit and obviously the beauty of the strategy is that a person we could take that funds and go and invest into our next property.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: And that's pretty much what you guys did, isn't it?
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: You sort of did the old momentum investing thing, keeping some properties for cash flow and things like that and obviously flipping other properties.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: And I mean, obviously I know a lot more about you from 2019, where we even looked at a few properties together and things like that around the Sheffield area.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: So I mean, that was quite a busy year for you, wasn't it?
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: Because you were still working full time as well, weren't?
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: you?
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was quite a busy year for you, wasn't it?
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: Because you were still working full time as well, weren't you?
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, by 2019, we've had our second property in the beginning of 2019.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: So it was very much a step approach.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: We first started with single leads and then do mini-mo's, and then we went on to larger HMO's onto larger HMOs.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: But what you will get to know about us is that everything is about systems and procedures and having a very methodical approach to things and our way.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: What we found was good is to raise funds from investors and add it to our funds to buy assets that we will keep, and we continuously did the buy refurb, refinance strategy.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: That just allows us to refinance and pay back investors and then have funds to continue on to the next deal.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: The trouble is that in each one that you keep, you may leave in a little bit of money, so your own capital pot dwindles in a little bit of money, so your own capital pot dwindles.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: So we very much or at least in my head I see it as there's two arms to it.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: We've got asset acquisition and we've got trading income.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: So the whole purpose of the trading income is to build back that capital pot to continue, for you to be able to invest, and the best way that I found for building that capital pot is by doing joint venture buy to sell.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: So this was where we team up with an investor with funds.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: They may not have necessarily the knowledge and the experience, but what they will do is they will fund the purchase and the refurbishment.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: What we will do is we will find a deal, we will manage the builders and we will also dress it up with the staging, make it all nice and then sell it.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: We love it because it's a nice in-out joint venture.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: We keep the investors safe by having the property being bought in their name and we do all the work.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: And then we've just had a really good experience in that year 2019, we've done three of these flip projects.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: So that just allows us to maintain our capital pot and obviously helped us to continue and to invest that's really good.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: That's really, and the way you way you've set it up as well.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: You know that you've got two arms to it, so you know one can support the other one, which is what it's all about, and I think you know, we know Monica she loves to dress things.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: I know you do all the lugging of the big things, don't you, and stuff like that, but she's very good at being creative and dressing the properties and making them look absolutely, absolutely phenomenal.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: I think it was an HMO that I came and had a look at the one that was on the corner and the way she dressed that and made that look, it looked absolutely gorgeous.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: So I mean, that makes all the world a difference, particularly when you're coming to do the resale and things, doesn't it?
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: But obviously, I mean, is it now more about keeping the assets or are you still very much along the lines of flipping?
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Because we're talking about?
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: 2019 was a pretty good time for getting into property.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: It wasn't a booming market.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: Of course, since we've had COVID in the last couple of years, we've had a mini boom, so has that really affected that strategy for you?
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: It has, mark.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: We managed to build it up to such a point to where both Monica and myself could go full-time into property.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: Of course, it was first Monica and then myself.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: Since the end of COVID I also now focus full-time on property.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: But what we found is that the market has just become so hot.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: As a person got out of COVID, it was really difficult to find heavily discounted properties like before.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: So we had to pivot a little bit At that point.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: Flip projects didn't quite work for us because we saw it as a little bit of a gamble with the end value.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: It was really difficult to get what we usually aim for 20% below market value.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: It was really difficult to get those deals.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: It was even difficult to just get a viewing on something, nevermind getting it so discounted.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: So what we decided to do was to pivot and go more towards supported living properties.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: So this is where I have to also say that with the HMOs, as we are building our HMO portfolio because we still self-manage time is really important to us, and as you build a HMO portfolio, your time becomes less and less and less.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: So the combination of the difficulty to find below market value properties, as well as our time aspects pointed us towards supported living.
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: The reason why we do so is because a person can especially if a person turned into a HMO, that becomes a supported living, because it's still a high cash flowing property.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: But a person can sign it with a supported living provider for five years, they manage it, they pay all the bills and so and the numbers stack, even if we buy it more, towards market value.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: So we have really started over the last year to specialize in sourcing investors these type of deals as well as buying for ourselves.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: But now the market is changing again, it's softening and it actually brings back flip projects.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: So we'll be looking to add flip projects to our strategy as well.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: So you're going to do sort of three arms now.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: Yes, you can say so.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: Of course you know that last year we did two commercial conversions.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: So a commercial conversion up in sheffield, in manchester by trafford center.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: We turned a mixed commercial unit into three flats and that's currently rented on a single eight and two on service accommodation.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: And then we also converted a commercial unit in Sheffield from just a ground floor commercial into ground floor commercial in a six bedroom all on suite HMO.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: So this year really our target is to look to with our asset acquisition to acquire another commercial unit that we will turn into flats and keep.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: But the next year is much more about trading income.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: So that's why we'll be focusing on sourcing the properties for supported living and also doing joint venture flip projects.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Wow, you're going to be a busy man.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: Busy, but we love it, Mark yeah.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: Wow, you're going to be a busy man.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: Busy, but we love it, mark yeah.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: And what I must do is indicate to you our very much within our goal setting.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: It's also about relaxing.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: So what we want to do is we want to, every quarter, go on a one-week holiday abroad somewhere and also take a weekend off each quarter, maybe go to the Lake District or something similar.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: So it will very much be a time of working hard but then relaxing and recovering, because property investing is really hard.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: There's so many aspects to it and it can be quite stalling if you don't take care of yourself, both mentally and physically.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: Definitely, definitely.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: We all hear the great stories I've got properties, I've flipped properties, I'm doing this, but it is hard work.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: You know there is blood, sweat and tears that go into these sort of things and, yes, the profits and the gains are there.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: But again, I think the balance you've got to get that balance, haven't you?
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: And strike that balance, and it's very easy.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: Did you find yourself?
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: I know I did.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: It's very easy to get caught up in this sort of wave of property and you stop looking after yourself, you stop having that time off, you're just sort of 24-7 in it because you're thinking to yourself I want to grow this, I want to make this happen and some aspects of it you are enjoying it.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: But you forget to have that sort of downtime where you just go off and relax and rest.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: And did you?
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: Did you find that for yourself then?
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: That was probably the biggest lesson for me in 2022.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: For the first six months, I was so good.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: I was playing sport four times a week.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: I was going on two hour walks each day.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: I was doing yoga five times, five days a week, it was.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: I was doing my journaling every day.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: But then, for the last part of the year, it all started to slip as we started to work more and more.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Work just completely replaced everything, up to the point where we almost didn't do anything but work.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: And, my goodness, over the last um, I would say october, november I would uh, I would say that it really started to take a toll.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: And I come, I came to realize that this is a long game.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: A person must be careful for pushing yourself too hard in the short term.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: It's it's better to be steady and methodical and have a good balance of taking care of yourself.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, definitely.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: I think it's good, but it just sometimes takes you a bit of time to see it for yourself, doesn't it?
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: It does, yep.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: So I mean going from you know your first couple of flips and stuff like that what would you say some of your biggest learnings it's a broad question, some of your biggest learnings, but particularly taking them from your commercial conversions and stuff like that.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: What have been sort of learnings that you don't necessarily get educated in Because, as I always say to people, properties you can have two properties that look the same, but they're never going to be completely the same.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: They are living and breathing sort of beasts themselves and there's always little issues that one property might have over another property.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: But for yourself, with the experience that you've got now, if you could go back to you know, peter of 2017, and as he's stepping into the property world, what sort of challenges would you say?
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: You need to get ready to expect these sort of things, because they're going to happen.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: The best example I can give was if we compare the two commercial conversions that we have done so, first the one in Sheffield, which was the HMO mixed commercial unit this was the good one because we found the right type of builder for the project and then compare that one to the three flat conversion by the Trafford Centre, by Manchester, where we did not assign the right builder.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: Just the contrast between the two it just well.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: I should first say that the builder in Manchester was much cheaper.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: So maybe there's some truth in you get what you pay for.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: Because we just had the hardest time with this builder and this project.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: It required me to be there almost every day, whereas the Sheffield one I only had to be there once a week.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: We were too focused on bringing the project into or watching the money rather than finding the appropriate builder for the project.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: So it was just a continuous struggle and it even led to us losing about £25,000 because we ended up having to get rid of the builder and it was super stressful and very much a challenge.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: So we ended up having to.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: I actually used their subcontractors to complete the project and self-manage it just to get it through.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: It took a lot from me.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: But, my goodness, we learned a lot.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: And compare that to the Sheffield project where literally, I just had to go there once a week and just do the valuation, answer a few questions with the builder, we walk her out, and his professionalism and knowledge saved me on the end because there was hardly any additional work cost.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: So for me, the biggest lesson I want to give is to be very careful who a person assigned to different things.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: If this is within lettings or within your bookkeeper or your solicitor, that team is critical for you to have an easy or a difficult time definitely, definitely.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: I know trades and builders and things.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: They can be an allure unto themselves, which is unfortunate because and we always say, if you find a good one, look after them at the end of the day.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: But I mean, I know the projects were different and of course prices would have been different and things.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: And I'm not expecting to go into figures or anything, but was there a vast difference in, so to speak, the price of the builders, or was one a lot cheaper than the other one in context, or was it not that big a step up?
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: And you think to yourself you know what I mean, I'll go for that biggest step up every time.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: Now I had a number in mind, so if we can use this as a space mark, the property in Ermston by Manchester was the quote came five percent underneath what I think it should have been and the project in sheffield came five percent more than what I thought would have been.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: But at the end of the day I probably overpaid about 15 percent for the manchester one yeah.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: So what you thought you were saving in the long run came back and bit you anyway, didn't it?
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: It's horrible that sort of thing, but that's a good learning.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's a good.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: There's always a challenge.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: So you know, if you're looking at a property now and you're going around, you've got a good idea about what you're looking for, what you want to do with things.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: I've walked around properties with you.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: I've seen you quite systematically going through, doing your checks and stuff like that, which is always good to see and learn from.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: Is there specific criterias that you know yourself?
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: When you go in there and you look at something and you think to yourself, yep, yep, that's all right, or we're going to knock this down, we're going to do all of this, you know when you actually go.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: If somebody's looking at going in and starting to flip properties is what I'm trying to say what would you sort of recommend, the certain things that they should be looking for?
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: I think that it first starts by determining your area, and what I would say about areas is that for flip projects, it's probably it's better in my experience to look for a little bit nicer areas, let's say medium to nicer areas.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: I will avoid picking up things in council estates and really run down areas for flip projects specifically.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: So that's the first thing Get the area right.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: And it's always best to do a flip project in a bigger town rather than in small, out of town, small towns.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: So, first area.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: The second thing is to set up all your alerts and such kind of things so that you are fast Calling agents asking them if they've got any deals.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: This is very much a game of speed Once you get that viewing in the area that you like and the type of property that you want.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: So that's probably another point is that you need to establish what type of property that you want.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: So that's probably another point is that you need to establish what type of property that you want.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: But in my experience you can flip.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: You can even flip a flat, but terrace, semi-detached, they all really work when a person go and view the property.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: It's one of the three things that a person needs to find out.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: The three things are to know what the end value is.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: The second thing is to know what the refurbishment is, and the third is to know what margin you're looking for.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: So obviously we're now talking about the second thing, which is the refurb costs.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: So what you want to know is how much is it going to cost me to bring this property up to an A1 standard where I can sell it?
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: And a person can only effectively do so if you have a really good process of viewing the properties.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: So what we do is we use Trello, where we've got a checklist.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: So when we go view the property we go down the checklist and we mark any, everything that needs to be done to it.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: We don't just go in and like, walk around the place and don't really have a a clear approach.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: Um, so we'll check the windows, we'll check for subsidence, we'll check the flooring, we'll check the joist if maybe they are rotten.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: You know the list is quite expansive and obviously you only get 10 minutes.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: So a person do need to be quite systematic in your approach.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: But the whole point is that you want to be able to capture everything that you will need to do to bring that up to standard, take your photos, take your videos.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: Maybe when you're first starting you want to show the videos to a builder or invite a builder around with you just to help you to determine the cost.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: But to be honest, you can even find costs out of different things by just doing a little bit of internet research.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: Then it goes on to having a really good calculator spreadsheet to do your numbers and this is where you want to collate the total refurb cost.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: Then, once you're really confident with the refurb cost, you can move on to your margin as well as what the end value will be.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Brilliant.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: That's really good.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: That's really helpful.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much for that.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: And obviously I mean have you had any projects where you've got to the end valuation?
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: It's not been what you thought, or have they all pretty much been on a ticket?
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: So far we and I think it's a little bit because of our approach where the end value.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: We would be very cautious with that.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: There's certain numbers where you are where you go a little.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: There's certain numbers where you go a little bit over and certain numbers that you go a little bit under.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: So when we first look at a project, when we think what it may be worth, we are quite pessimistic with that number.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: When it comes to the refurbishment cost, we like to add the contingency because maybe there's inevitably going to be something that you pick up which you't see at first.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: So that's actually a number that we like to go over a little bit.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: And our margin is our margin.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: So people have different, uh, profit margins they're looking for.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: For us it's 20 percent.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: Um, so when it each time, because of us being conservative with our end value, the property actually sold for more than what we thought, We've only had good experiences so far, thankfully.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: But I think one thing that really helps is the dressing of the properties as well.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: So when Monica goes in and she makes it look lovely, like a home and people can really imagine living there rather than just looking at the empty walls, we especially find that that helps to sell the property faster and for more than what you think.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, people buy on emotion at the end of the day, don't they?
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: If you can walk into somewhere you can envision yourself living there, you're on the right track, aren't you?
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: The more people you can get to do that, obviously, the more the price goes up, which is which is, always a brucy bonus at the end of the day, but hey mark.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, I just want to say on that it is.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: It's the funniest thing for me when a person looks at somebody that comes to look at a property, to buy it or to come to let it the kind of things that they look for they're so retail orientated.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: They will, you know, when you and I go around we look at the walls and the quality of the plaster finish and any cracks or issues or the boiler electric consumer unit.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: These are the kind of things we look at, but they will look at all the soft things and it's just a complete different world it's all of the things that can be easily replaced, isn't it, at the end of the day?
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: but probably you're going to take it out anyway when you and you actually sell the property.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: But, uh, yeah it is.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: It's like a consumer mindset, isn't it?
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Um, which, which is?
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Which is really really good.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: So I mean looking, I'm looking at the market going forward.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: You know, nobody's got a crystal ball or anything, but, as you said earlier, uh, the market's cooled off now.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Uh, at the end of the day, it's not the booming market that we had.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: Obviously interest rates have done that.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Obviously, doing doing flips in a market that potentially is dropping slightly can also come with its challenges and come with its risks.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: So what are the sort of things that you would look for in the market that maybe we're going to have the next 18 months to sort of get rid of those risks as much as possible?
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: I know there's always a risk involved, but what will you be looking for?
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: The way that I analyze the current market.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: I think it's especially important to buy things at the right price and the way that, because if you can buy a property at the right price and you can add value, that really keeps you safe.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: It's actually really difficult to lose money if you buy something at the right price and you're adding value.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: So the way to achieve that is all through activity.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: So it's all about going to view as many things as possible, to make as many estate agent phone calls as possible, to be really checking all the properties that come onto Rightmove and have your processes in place, because that activity makes you and having multiple options makes you less emotional about any one specific deal.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: And it's usually when a person gets caught up into the emotions of looking at a specific property that you may pay over the odds, and then, of course, you squeeze your safety margins and then any further drop in the market will push you into the negative and you can actually lose money.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: So it's all about activity, seeing lots of opportunities, because the more you do, the more opportunities will be presented to you and you can buy the things of the biggest margin in it and then add value and sell.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: Just one more thing that I personally think is that this is more a cash buyers market, because purchasing on this high interest rates can be quite difficult.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: I I think that, in combination with just how long mortgage purchases take, I think you put yourself at a big advantage if you can make yourself a cash buyer, and the way to do that in my experience, is if you are fortunate enough to have enough funds by yourself.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: But a person have to remember that there are so much funds out there, so many people that you can collaborate with and you can team up with somebody that can finance this cash purchases with yourself.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, brilliant, and you've.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: Obviously, you know, if you remove the mortgage companies and you are a cash purchaser obviously subject to solicitors and searches and things, you can speed up the whole process as well, can't you?
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: That's right, mark.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: I think there will be people that's desperate to sell.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: So if you can be a cash purchaser all that thing about finding motivated people to buy from so that is what we target and being a cash buyer is very advantageous for that.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: A person also have to remember that people will move in all markets.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: People want to move home, relocate, various reasons.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: So even in a recession, people will still be when it comes to selling the deal, selling the property.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: There will still be buyers out there and I think that will continue even over this next year.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, definitely.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: And, of course, you're like five, five, maybe five, six years in now.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: So you know what you've learned and what you're talking about here.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: You know the listeners might be thinking this is great, I want to flip some properties this year.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: You know it has it's.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: This isn't happened overnight, it's.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: It's a bit like the iceberg sort of illusion, isn't it?
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Where we can see the peak, but the actual whole iceberg's under the water.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: It's taken time to get yourself into the position where you are now.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: It's taken a lot of work and, like I say, you've done this alongside a full-time job as well and those things you should pat yourself on the back.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: You know the pair of you have worked tirelessly and have done a superb job in what you're doing.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: But again, I just like to alliterate to people, or just say to people realistically, in my own simple terms, that it does take a bit of time as well.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: You know you're not going to make all of these great decisions.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: You're not going to do all of this overnight.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: We're talking about, you know, 2017, you sort of started getting into this 2018 and things it was progressing on the knowledge, of course, as well, and I always say to people it is about the knowledge.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, we've done some training courses together as well and we've done some events.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: We've been to events together.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: We never planned to events together, we never planned to go together.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: We just ended up in the same sort of circles and things.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: But it is about who you surround yourself with and it's taking action on what you're learning as well.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: But I also believe massively it's about having a passion for what you're doing and I think you've got that.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: You know, you've found it there that maybe potentially managing properties isn't a passion and it's not a passion for many people.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: But buying properties, getting the work done on properties, dressing the properties, it's something that you both really enjoy and it's something I think you'll both see for the foreseeable future if you tell me, if I'm wrong, that this is what you're going to be doing, this is your life now and getting that balance in there as well of looking after yourself, going and having breaks and holidays.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: It wasn't until last year myself that you know, every three months now I have a weekend, at least a weekend away with probably the family, but we're definitely with the wife and we have sort of date nights.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: I know it sounds silly, but you get so caught up in life that you just forget to go out and have a meal together and just chill out and just forget about property, forget about everything and just have fun.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: And I think now, hearing that you're doing stuff like that is brilliant and you're off tomorrow.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Where are you going tomorrow?
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is actually we're going to Costa Rica and we are renting a four by four the type where you can put the tent on top of the roof, and we're just going to explore the beaches and the volcanoes and the forests around that lovely country.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: Not that we've been before, but the picture sure looks nice.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: Well, be careful around those volcanoes, but that's what it's all about Work hard, go and enjoy yourselves and then.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: Have you got any other sort of getaways planned already, or are you just seeing seeing how the year pans out?
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: Well it's, we don't have anything planned, but we've got firm intention to book something for the next quarter.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: So this is going to be a.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Really, our approach is to take a break every quarter.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's brilliant every quarter.
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's brilliant, that's brilliant.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: So, just going back, obviously, as you were going through the years and you're doing what you're doing and everything you've got yourself educated, which I always think you know people should do that.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: They should get themselves out, they get the knowledge, specialist knowledge in what you want to do as well, because you'll never learn everything.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: So you might as well have the base foundations and then you can learn the rest, so to speak, on the job.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: But again, I always think communities as well are a massive part, because you can get the education, you can take the actions.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: But when the chips are down and things are hard, it's about, really I always think, having a community that you can turn to and talk to people who maybe been there and done that or got an idea and a suggestion to help you.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: So have you been in a community?
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Have you had that sort of structure around you?
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: So it's interesting that you talk about education and community, and what I find is often you can combine the two.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: So what it might be is that you go join a course, maybe a year-long course, with a group of people.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: That's what we did.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: I did that for a couple of years and I know that you also did that.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: If I'm not mistaken, you even won the whole thing.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: I think they do some competition on yours, but that was really game changing.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: First of all, the education, and what I found about education is that it takes away fear.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: It significantly reduces fear.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: It significantly reduces risk, because the more you know, when you do see something that works, you will, with much more confidence, go for it.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: And this is one of the biggest problems I see people just new to property is that they're filled with fear.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: They really want to make it work, but they just don't want to make any mistakes, lose money and that type of thing.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: It's also so against the grain of what we tend to be taught.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: So putting a lot of effort towards your education goes miles and miles.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Then, on the community side, this is actually where I found almost all of my joint venture partners.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: I've done various things with people that I went on this course with.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: We did flip projects together.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: There's somebody that helped source those deals.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: We raised money over there.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: So that whole community and I personally just really like attending these courses where a person can see somebody once a month and build on a relationship, because I'm not the kind of person that can walk into a network group and straightaway easily speak with people.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: I can speak with people, but to build relationships is really what I'm more about.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think it's finding that balance that works for you.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: You know, I think with anything, it's about doing the research but making sure that you're going to gain from it and you're going to be able to take action on what you're actually being taught and shown.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: But I think it definitely helps and, like you say, the money that you've spent learning and getting educated the community that was involved with it has probably been priceless in effect of helping you source deals.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: You know the people will have been showing you ways that you won't have known, because we don't know what we don't know.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: And that's what I love from it.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: I love getting in a room with people and having a discussion.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: What are you up to?
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: What are you doing?
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, how are you doing that?
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: Them asking me the questions and it's just what goes around, comes around.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: You know, by helping and supporting others, you turn, get that help yourself, and that's really what it is all about.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: So I do say to people, if you are going to invest in yourself, make sure that you do your homework.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: It's with somebody who is doing what you want to do, but there's also a community element to it as well, so that you can be a part of something because we are sort of herd creatures, I think you know being a part of something gives you that sort of safe environment to be, to be a part of, but it's still very difficult and property can be lonely and very, very difficult and you can spend a lot of time really on your own.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, you'll know yourself.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: You're around builders and you're around you know, uh, other people are you talking to solicitors, you're talking to aging?
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: But they're not your mates, they're not.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: They're not people you can fight, they're just.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: It's just part of the business thing.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: And I found this particularly coming from my corporate background where I was in charge of a lot of teams and a lot of people.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: All of a a sudden, I would talk to people, but it wasn't really social, it wasn't like a social chat or it wasn't.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: I couldn't say I've got this problem.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: Have you come across this?
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: It was different, isn't it?
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: It's a different sort of community.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: So by putting yourself in, that, I think it's really really good and I think what you as I say I keep saying it again but what you've done you need to follow um, you need to follow peter and monica on instagram, that's for sure, at keys for doors.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: I think is your.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: Is that your instagram handle?
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: Uh, keys to doors, keys to doors, sorry, keys to doors, because they do reels.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: Uh, and they put on their projects and I'll show you around their projects and I watch them.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: I and you can learn a lot from them as well.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: There there's just some great stuff, so keep those going.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: It's always always good.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: I'm always conscious of time, but there's a part of this podcast episode where I like to ask some questions and just find out what people are into and the different answers.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: So, if that's all right with you, can I do a little quick fire quiz with you, or is that a quiz Go?
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: So, if that's all right with you, can I do a little quickfire quiz with you, or is that a quiz?
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: Go for it, mark.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: Brilliant, brilliant.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: So what's the best advice you've been given?
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: To acquire cash flow producing assets, and that will get you freedoms in time.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: I like it, I like it and it has, it has.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: If you were still in the corporate world and you weren't doing property, what job would be your chosen profession?
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: If I was still in the corporate world, I will still be stuck working within the hospitality business.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: Just because I didn't.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: It was something that I was doing for over 10 years and I probably would just carry on until I retire one day and not have nearly as exciting life as what I'm now hoping for nice, nice answer.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: I like that.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: I like that if you could sit down and have a meal with three people, dead or alive, who would you like to sit down and have dinner with, to chat?
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: to John D Rockefeller because he's got the same personality than me, same personality traits.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: So that's the first one.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: I would like to speak with my father again.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: I think he was quite a businessman and I didn't have much opportunity to speak with him.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: I'm sure I could learn a lot from asking him.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: And, um, I don't really have a third.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: That's good enough okay, though.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: Well, monica can be the third there you go.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're all sorted.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: You're all sorted um what's your top three?
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: sort of go-to podcasts um, I listen to your podcast.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: I find you especially good for people that want to learn how to do things properly, how to start a property business, how to source properties, how to make cash flow.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: I think that you're a really good step for people that want to move from corporate into property investing.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: I like Mark Homer's podcast, mark my Words.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Again, I find that that is quite good value.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Somebody that thinks similar than myself.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: And then I listen to Property Hub.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: So I think they have been going for over 10 years and they've had maybe 600 or 500 episodes and I've listened to every single one.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: Oh, very good, you should get a badge.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: If you've listened to all of mine, I'll send you a badge.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: That's great, that's great.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: And lastly but not least, what are top three books that you'd recommend?
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: They don't have to be property related, but they can be mindset business, whatever.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: Whatever three books that you've read that you think, oh, these are go-to ones.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: I think, for first of all, if you've not read, reach that Word At.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: I think that's a book to read first of all.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: The next book I would recommend is um the millionaire next door.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: I think that um, that book, uh, has got a lot of fundamental rules and and um could, um, I think it exactly teach you how you should be um, if you want to become wealthy one day.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: And then the last one is the e-myth If you want to build a really structured business.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: I think that that book has got really good foundational things.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: And if I could throw in one more, probably my best book for mindset is the Magic of Thinking Big, so that one is really great.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: And I'll just say I hope you don't mind, but you and I we share a Trello board and we keep track of each other's books that we read over there and I have to say it's really hard to keep up with you, mark.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: I'm amazed by how many books you crack through I know I do read quite a quite a few.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: Um, now, that's great.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: What book are you reading at the moment?
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: um, I'm reading titan.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: Uh, that is a john d rockefeller book.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: It's 36 hours of podcast listening it's.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: It's quite a marathon, but enjoying it thoroughly.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: Excellent, excellent, well done, well done.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: And I know you're an avid journaler.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: You like your journals and everything like that.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: I do as well.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: Has that been something you've done through getting into property, or have you always journaled?
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: No, I think my life can be explained in two halves.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: So this was before property and after property, and I can't believe the things I'm doing now.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: Um, I I never like.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: Until the age of about 30, I only read.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: I read less than 10 books because I went to a technical school, and after the age of like at the moment, we read about 20 to 30 books a year.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: So such a change.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: Doing yoga now, but also journaling.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: I never thought I would be doing journaling, but, my goodness, it's so much about mindset, right, mark?
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely it's powerful, isn't it?
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: I have three journals.
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: I do one for revelations if I'm reading books or anything.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: I do one for business and planning and I do one for my own personal as well.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: And I don't do them every day, not all of them, but different days I'll pick up a different one, depending on what I'm doing.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: But I find going back and reading them is phenomenal, because some of the targets I've said this before but some of the targets you're set maybe I set in 2018, 2019, I laugh about now, but it was funny there was three main targets that I set the beginning.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: Well, on the first day of last year that I wanted to achieve, and on the first day this year, I just hopped back to have another look and I achieved them all, and it's just nice to put a little tick by them all.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: I just thought you know what I mean.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: When I set those targets, I didn't think I'd achieve them.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: I thought I might get close, but I didn't actually think that I would achieve them.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: So it's those little things.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: That's massive.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: That's massive, and I think you know you need to be able to look back, review what you've done, but it's gone badly to be able to help you progress in the future.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: But it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on my friend and I appreciate your time and coming on here and sharing your nuggets.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: I mean absolute gold, which is great for people that are looking at getting into property, flipping property, commercial properties and things.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: Do check out Monica and Peter on Instagram and, of course, if anybody wants to reach out to you, what's the best ways to do that?
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: I would refer them to our website, which is keystodoorscouk.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: That is spelled K-E-Y-S-T-O-D-O-O-R-S.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: On there you can see a little bit about the projects that we have done.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: My contact details are also on there and it will be lovely to speak with anybody.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: Brilliant, brilliant.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: Well, we'll put a link in the show notes.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: If you've got show notes, wherever you're listening or watching this and, of course, do check it out, because and do check Amout on social media as well, because you can learn a lot just by watching the reels and things like that.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: They are good.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, you do a lot of walking around as well, which shows the projects and you talk people through it and stuff like that.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: So if you're interested in those sort of things or you're interested in getting into property and you've got a bit of money and you want to do some flips, you know these guys are fantastic to get involved with.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: So you know, have you got anything else that you'd like to say to the listeners before we wrap this one up?
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: No, I just want to thank you for inviting me.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: It is such an honour and I'm such a big fan of you, Mark, and I'm so impressed by everything that you have achieved over the last few years as well.
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: Well, it'd be great in, you know, maybe the back end of this year, to be able to get you back on and see how your year's gone with your plans and everything like that, if that's all right with you.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: Happy to Thank you so much.
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: So that just leaves me to basically say to everybody thank you very much for joining us.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: It's been great to have you.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: I hope you've enjoyed this episode.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: If you have, please feel free to share it like it, subscribe to it, leave a five-star review if you want to, but keep focusing on your vision, Keep chasing those goals and bye for now.