Latest / Martyr's Row / Ep. 56 - Was Caleb the Giant Killer a Giant?

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Ep. 56 - Was Caleb the Giant Killer a Giant? · Martyr's Row

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This week on Martyrs Row. Did the Heaven's Gate
0:03
cult invent the internet or was it Al Gore? Was
0:06
Caleb the Giant Killer actually a giant himself?
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When did Bob Lazar become Bob Bazaar? Is your
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granny a witch? I don't know. Let's find out.
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This week on Martyrs Row. Three, two, one. Saint
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Boetius, a man of noble Roman birth and singular
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learning, served in high office under Theodoric
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the Ostrogoth, yet set his heart more upon wisdom
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and the fear of God than upon earthly favor.
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In his writings he labored to reconcile philosophy
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with the providence of the Almighty, teaching
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that no earthly fortune can overthrow the counsel
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of heaven. Yet, Through envy and false accusation,
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he fell into the displeasure of the king and
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was cast into prison at Pavia. Stripped of his
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honors and condemned as a traitor, there in bonds
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and affliction, he wrote his book of consolation,
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strengthening his own soul with the remembrance
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that all worldly prosperity is but a shadow.
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Anno Domini, 524. Hey, Paul. Hey, Steve. Welcome
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back to WQRS Martyrs Row Radio .com. That actually
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sounds kind of cool. Thursday, Thursday morning.
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Wake up, everybody. It's 4 a .m. We are here
2:10
waiting for you. Now we get all smooth. Now let
2:15
me ask you. Okay. Sorry, hold on. I messed that
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up. Wait, now let me ask. Hey, let me ask you.
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Okay, I like that better. Yeah. What would you
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like to ask me, Paul? Do you know what the internet
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is? Yeah. You talking about Al Gore's baby? Yeah.
2:37
The super information highway? Yes. Super information
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highway. Is that what he called it? S -I -H?
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Something like that. I don't know. I guess. I
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think you called it the information superhighway.
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The information superhighway? Yeah. That makes
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sense. I think that's what it was. Are you Al
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Gore? Did you invent the internet superhighway?
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Did you invent the internet? International. Yeah.
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Are you Al Gore? Did you invent the internet?
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Welcome. This podcast is for you. Drop a comment.
3:06
Let us know about it. If you're not Al Gore,
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please turn the channel. You need to stop watching
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now. This is only for Al Gores. So, so Paul,
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what do you got for us? Well, so you know how
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like the internet has changed a lot. Yes. So
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I don't know if you, I'm sure you, I don't know.
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I love how I was like, I don't think you remember
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this. You definitely, if I remember this, you
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remember this. Or we are being exposed more to
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the internet every day. That is true. In a different
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kind of internet. Okay. Because there actually
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is like different phases of the internet that
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they call it. Okay. It's like internet 1 .0 and
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2 .0. And I think we're heading into like 3 .0
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or something. Interesting. If we're not already.
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Is that like 5G? It's just like, I think it's
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how they define like, I don't even know how to
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define it. Phases? It's like we're moving further
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away. And like what it can do. Yeah. Oh boy.
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Because I mean. So before Google, there wasn't
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that really search engines. True. Which is, it's
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funny because even for me, because I remember
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surfing the web without a search engine. Okay.
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And I love how I'm like, I don't even know how
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I did that. Yeah, how did you do that? Like you
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just type in random websites and go there. Oh
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yeah, it was just, it would directly take you.
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You had to know the address. Yes. That's right.
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Like you had to know where you're going. The
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WW dot was important. Right, right, right. And
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you had to actually, yeah. So if you were searching
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for something, you had to guess the website.
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Yes. So you had to guess the address. Otherwise,
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you wouldn't get to anything. You'd never get
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there. Yeah. Yeah. Which makes sense if you're
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sending a letter. Right. You'd have to send it.
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You need to know the address. Yeah, you need
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to know the address. Yeah. Fair. And what's interesting
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about it too is because there was also what websites
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could do was very different. Yeah. So like in
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the very early stages of the internet, you couldn't
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click on links. Okay. And see anything. It was
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basically just like one page of text. Okay. Yeah.
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And so a lot of people would use it for like
5:08
flyers or stuff like that. And it's like, Hey,
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look, this is happening. Like, Oh, cool. Yeah.
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You're just like, how do I get junk mail directly
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to my computer? AOL .com. And then, you know,
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then it moved into like, oh, there's hyperlinks
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and you can have like images and stuff like that.
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Yeah. And that's when like it really started
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to like take off and whatnot. Yeah, that makes
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sense. And so there's a lot of old websites that
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have died. Okay. Like they've been here and they
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died off. Okay. And so there's a few though.
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Yeah. That have remained active to this day.
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But no one's updated them? No. I actually have
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never thought about that. Yeah. So there's like
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old, like there's old, like, I guess, what would
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it be like Linux or something? Like there's old,
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just like text only website landing pages, which
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is crazy to think about, but how would they be
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hosted? Someone's still paying for it. But who
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was hosting it? I have no clue. And so the one
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in particular that I want to bring to our attention
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today, it's not like a text only. It was in like
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that 2 .0 phase. Okay. So it has like some hyperlinks
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and like some videos and recordings, but it's
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very like early. Early internet. Internet website
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design. That's cool. And this. So you have to
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know the address to find it? You could just Google
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it now. Fair. Or Ask Jeeves. Ask Jeeves. I like
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that. It's classic. I like it. Yeah. That's the
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first time I got to cheat on my own work. Ask
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Jeeves. Just Ask Jeeves. That's hilarious. It
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did not get me a good grade. Fair. It didn't
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know what it was doing. No. Jesus wasn't the
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best butler. Even back then, people still lied
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on the internet. It started out that way. Yeah.
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Thanks, Al Gore. Thank you. Actually, on a total
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side point. Okay, yeah. It is amazing how many
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even GIFs back in the day were still fake. Do
7:17
you remember seeing the one of the penguin knocking
7:19
the other penguin into the ice? No. You've never
7:21
seen that one? Uh -uh. Yeah, it's a classic one.
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And by GIFs, you mean GIFs? I said what I said.
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No, I understand. But I think other people might
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think there's a T in there. Yeah, that's fair.
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And that's on me. So a penguin knocking another
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penguin? Yeah, totally fake. Is it just anime?
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Yeah, someone just made it up. Okay, fair. And
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everyone's like, this is real. Because it's on
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the internet. I like that people are saying that.
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They see a penguin, they don't go like, oh man,
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they go, this is real. This definitely happened.
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Facebook has never died. Oh boy, can you see
8:03
this? Oh boy, this is real. This is real. Did
8:05
you see this, Debra? Breaking news. Hey, Debra,
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in 1998, did you know that this was real? Imagine
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something on the internet. Could you believe
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it? The internet, the super highway of information.
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I can't stop watching it. Oh, I love my Uncle
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Al Gore. Is your granny a witch? Is your granny
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a witch? I don't know. It's got to be real. It's
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on the internet. It's got to be real. There's
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witchcraft here. So anyway. um there's a website
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okay called the heaven's gate the heaven's gate
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yeah okay and so why the the i guess they just
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really loved it fair it might just be heaven's
8:53
gate but i said the fair um so heaven's gate
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is just heaven's gate okay right my next line
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is it a portal um well Am I reading ahead? It
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is still online today and remains one of the
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oldest continuously maintained cult websites
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on the internet. Wait, aren't all those people
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dead? Not all of them. So you have heard of Heaven's
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Gate? I have, yeah. So it was originally launched
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in 1997, shortly before the group's death. Okay.
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Meaning it has now been online for nearly 30
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years. That's crazy. Yeah. Also that 97 was 30
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years ago. That's the wildest part. Yeah. Yeah.
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I heard something the other day that like any,
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like Gen Z considers anybody that was born before
9:44
the year 2000 as old. And it's like, okay, okay.
9:49
We've entered, we've entered the phase where
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we're just all old. We're all old. Which honestly
9:54
makes sense though. Cause I remember like even
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my parents talking about like the eighties. Yeah.
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And it's the early two thousands. And I was like,
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you guys are old. Yeah. Fair. And it's like,
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Oh, that was only 20 years ago. Yeah. So it makes
10:07
sense. We're all just perpetually old. Yes. It
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is funny that we don't realize we're old until
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the next generation tells us we are. And they
10:19
can say it whenever they want. And they do. Oh,
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Granny's a witch. She's an old witch. It's like,
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Granny's only 35. She's old. Also, how is she
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35? That's the most shocking part to you. Technology.
10:44
Okay, so Heaven's Gate. I was going to go on
10:47
that a little bit longer. I need to stop. So,
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the site still contains... Okay. The group's
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teachings, audio recordings, recruitment materials,
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archived videos, and statements written by members
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before their deaths. Oh, that's so creepy. Which
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is, it's eerie. Yeah, that's weird. Yeah. So
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visually, it still looks almost exactly as it
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did in the late 1990s with basic HTML formatting
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and very little modernization. I bet they paid
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like 50 grand for it. Oh, yeah. And now it's
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like $15. Like a better version costs nothing.
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Oh, it's almost nothing. Yeah, that's wild. And
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so for those that don't know, because to be honest,
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I've heard of Heaven's Gate, but I didn't really
11:37
know anything about them. So Heaven's Gate, you
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could just say Nike's and Purple Kool -Aid. Right?
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I mean, pretty close. Like that's that in my
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mind, that's what like Heaven's Gate was like
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the the like, I don't remember it when it was
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happening. I mean, I was child. Yeah, same. So
12:00
like that would have been something where it
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would have been like later on. It was just like
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there was a cult called Heaven's Gate. Yes. And
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they all died drinking purple Kool -Aid. And
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it was like they all had the same Nikes on when
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they died. Yeah. Just like, I mean, cool way
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to die. But there were some that stayed behind.
12:18
because they had to make sure that the message
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got through oh and so what's what's weird about
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it because there's some interesting things so
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like just this quick summary yeah because i mean
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you summarize it very beautifully thanks so uh
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it was founded in the 1970s okay by marshall
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applewhite and bonnie nettles And so the group
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believed that Earth was about to undergo destruction
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or recycling. Human bodies were temporary vehicles.
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Salvation meant leaving the human condition behind.
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And extraterrestrial beings represented a higher
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evolutionary kingdom called the next level. And
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so they combined Christian terminology, apocalyptic
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ideas, UFO beliefs, strict communal living. and
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heavy self -denial and separation from society.
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And members believed that Jesus was a missionary
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from the next level and that they themselves
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could evolve into higher beings through obedience
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and rejection of worldly attachment. Interesting.
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There's like so many different... just like colliding
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ideas yeah like yeah what because i don't even
13:36
know really what i guess like some yeah because
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it's not like one category of things right it's
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like like did they like where did um like that's
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like the the belief in like anunnaki stuff too
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right but that's that's really old that's a very
13:55
very old idea yeah but it would be like a yeah
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i think i forget sometimes i think because of
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like we are in an age of disclosure yes and we're
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in this place right now where like it seems like
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we are normalizing extraterrestrial uh organic
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life yeah but yes but none of us really know
14:19
if it's actually real or not and it's and to
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what extent And because so much stuff is fake
14:25
now, you don't know what is and what isn't. Yeah,
14:28
so very well could be that there's an increase
14:32
right now in the concept of the reality of extraterrestrial
14:38
biologics and them never actually having to produce
14:44
a real one because it can all be AI and eventually
14:48
holograms and... Like there could just be people
14:54
that create alien life and we all just accept
14:59
it. Like cool. But there may not be alien life
15:02
in the way that they would describe it. Right.
15:05
That's really trippy. I haven't really thought
15:07
about that. It's trippy. We're kind of emerging
15:09
into this moment where the technology is there
15:12
for it to be created. Yeah. At the same time
15:15
that we're in an age of disclosure as if these
15:18
things have always been real. Yeah. But then
15:22
from a biblical standpoint, we know like things
15:24
like angels and demonic spirits and like there
15:28
are all these beings that exist that aren't created
15:31
on the earth. So technically alien. Yes. But
15:34
that's different from like what they're talking
15:39
about. Correct. Like governments are talking
15:41
about. But yes. And I forget sometimes that cults
15:45
of the 70s. were engaging with like big into
15:50
this yeah and that makes sense because really
15:52
it's like 50s and 60s was that's when the whistleblower
15:55
yeah right era was happening yeah especially
15:58
in the 70s because then you yes um what's the
16:01
main guy uh applewhite no no no but but yeah
16:07
this uh bob lazar oh bob lazar yes like that
16:11
he was like the original whistleblower yes yeah
16:14
but um But yeah, okay. So then is there any self
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-proclaimed people that we know of that are still
16:24
part of Heaven's Gate? There are people that
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still go on podcasts to this day. I can't think
16:30
of their names off the top of my head. Who were
16:31
part of it. Who were part of it. Weird. Who actually
16:34
were given the mission of staying behind. Okay.
16:37
And there's actually a big thing that's happening
16:40
that we'll get to in a minute here of how it
16:43
actually ended. Oh. Because it wasn't as simple
16:46
as like, they just, was like a, you know, mass
16:49
Kool -Aid drinking sesh. Well, yeah, I know that
16:52
like, a lot of people tried to bail at the end.
16:56
Well, they were trying to get to something, and
16:59
there was a reason they picked like, when they
17:00
did it. Oh. But, before we do that. Okay. Here's
17:04
some interesting facts about that. Okay. Is this
17:09
a mini episode? This is a mini episode. Okay.
17:11
Just because it was so fascinating. Yeah, yeah,
17:13
yeah. So I was like, this is, Bazaar. Okay. Bob
17:16
Bazaar. Bob Bazaar. Wait, did we just solve it?
17:20
What? Was Bob Lazar actually Bob Bazaar? So the
17:30
members of the Heaven's Gate cult often abandoned
17:34
their families, careers, possessions, and even
17:38
their original names. So the group assigned new
17:41
names ending in O -D -Y such as R -K -K -O -D
17:48
-Y. I don't even know how to pronounce that.
17:51
And L -V -V -O -D -Y to reflect separation from
17:58
their former human identity. Right, so they're
18:01
like... Taking on what they perceive as like
18:03
alien names. Like a Christian name. Yeah. Or
18:05
an alien name. Not Christian. Well, I mean, it's
18:07
the same idea, but it's like, yeah. Extraterrestrial
18:10
names. Yes. They're like, this is bizarre and
18:12
crazy. That's my name. So is Elon Musk part of
18:15
the - I mean, has he already named his son? That's
18:18
what I'm saying. Yeah. He's a heaven's gate guy.
18:22
And so the group also practiced extreme discipline.
18:27
Life inside the group was highly structured.
18:29
Members followed strict rules involving diet,
18:32
behavior, celibacy, uniform clothing, and limited
18:37
personal expression. Several male members, including
18:41
Marshall Affaway, voluntarily underwent castration
18:45
as part of the group's rejection of human sexuality.
18:49
Okay. Which is like, that's extreme. It is, but
18:53
it's also characteristic of every cult. That's
18:55
correct, yeah. That there's either a denial of
18:59
or an abuse of sexual relations, orientations,
19:07
all of those things. Yeah, expression. Yeah.
19:09
Yeah, that's true. And so the other one is they
19:14
were early internet users. Oh, that's interesting.
19:18
So Heaven's Gate embraced technology unusually
19:20
early for a religious movement in the 1990s.
19:23
Well, they were becoming aliens. Yes. So of course
19:26
they would embrace technology. Of course. They
19:27
loved technology. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so members
19:29
built websites professionally, offered web design
19:32
services, used the internet to spread teachings,
19:35
and saw digital communication as useful for reaching
19:39
potential followers. Huh. So the website became
19:42
one of their primary public outreach tools near
19:45
the end of the movement. So then was Al Gore
19:48
in Heaven's Gates? That's a great question. He's
19:54
like, we need to spread the message. I'm going
19:56
to invent the internet real quick. Hey guys,
20:00
real quick. I've got something for this. And
20:04
so actually the two main members of Heaven's
20:07
Gate believed they were the two witnesses mentioned
20:10
in Revelation. Oh, I did know that. Okay. Yeah.
20:12
And the other one that I just think is. amazing
20:16
yeah yeah is they also loved star trek believe
20:19
it or not sure and believed there was there were
20:22
hidden messaging or messages behind the episodes
20:25
that they could learn from which there probably
20:27
are which is like that's awesome yeah and so
20:31
the question how it ended well does that also
20:35
mean that heaven's gate uh cult members early
20:41
on in the internet planted things in the internet
20:45
that have grown over time. They started viruses?
20:51
Well, just like the idea that the earlier you
20:55
teach a kid something, the more exponential it
20:58
becomes in their life. That's fascinating. Right?
21:01
So I wonder if there are things affected now
21:04
by things that they implanted into websites that
21:06
they built. They built stuff into the original
21:09
HTML. Yeah. That like, yeah, that affect us now
21:12
as far as like how we're. That would be kind
21:14
of fascinating. Yeah. I don't know if there's
21:16
any way to trace that, but yeah, I don't know.
21:19
Maybe some deep research. Yeah. You'd have to
21:20
go back to origins of. That's true. Of like maybe
21:24
internet language, maybe origins of the etymology
21:27
of internet language. We'll even see like what
21:29
sites did they build and where did those go?
21:31
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Especially if they were building
21:33
other people's websites. Yes. That's kind of
21:36
my thought. Because that's kind of how they made
21:37
their money. Well, then they. I mean, they definitely
21:39
had to have put stuff in that. Oh, I would imagine.
21:42
That would be interesting. So how did it end?
21:44
So in 1997, the group became focused on the appearance
21:50
of the comet Hale -Bopp appearance. Hale -Bopp?
21:56
Hale -Bopp. Nice. They came to believe that a
22:01
spacecraft was traveling behind the comet and
22:04
that leaving their physical bodies would allow
22:07
them to board it and enter the next level. Oh,
22:10
cool. So they're trying to get on the spaceship.
22:12
Yeah, makes sense. That was supposedly hiding
22:14
behind this comet. Okay. And so between March
22:17
22nd and March 26th, 1997, 39 members died in
22:23
a coordinated mass suicide at a rented mansion
22:26
in Rancho Santa Fe. which you'd hate to be the
22:29
guy who owns that mansion. And so the deaths
22:35
were carried out in stages over several days
22:38
using a mixture of that crazy drug, phenobarbital.
22:44
Fentanyl? Probably. Alcohol in plastic bags placed
22:49
over the head. So that event became... Phenobarbital.
22:53
Oh, thank you. Fino Barbie doll. Barbie dolls?
22:58
Fino Barbie dolls. They use Barbie dolls? Mixed
23:00
with alcohol. Feral Barbie dolls? Fino Barbie
23:03
dolls. And so the event became one of the most
23:08
widely known cult tragedies in American history.
23:11
And so the website still remains online. That's
23:16
weird. Because former members who did not participate
23:20
in the... in the incident, have continued maintaining
23:24
it. And so two longtime associates of the movement
23:28
reportedly preserved the site. and its materials
23:31
after 1997. Their stated purpose has been to
23:35
keep the group's teachings publicly available
23:38
exactly as they were left. As a result, the website
23:41
functions as an archive of the movement, a historical
23:45
artifact of the early internet, and one of the
23:48
most unusual surviving remnants of a modern religious
23:51
cult. Weird. It's an eerie sight too when you
23:55
go on it because you're like, where am I? Yeah,
23:57
that's creepy. And it has Hail Bop written right
24:00
in the front. Like right in the head. Hail Bop?
24:03
Yeah, the comet. That's so weird. Yeah. That's
24:07
weird. It's bizarre. Bob Bizarre. It's like Bob
24:14
Laser Bizarre. Bob Laser Bean Bizarre. Bob Laser's
24:22
Bizarre's. I need to watch Star Trek now. Heaven's
24:27
Gate. Oldest website. Yeah. Maybe not. One of
24:32
the oldest. One of the oldest websites. Still
24:34
remaining. Huh. And so if you are one of the
24:38
guys maintaining that website. Hit us up. Hit
24:41
us up. We need a website. We do. Make our website.
24:47
That would be awesome. That would be awesome.
24:49
I would love that. Yeah. But I'm going to double
24:52
check the HTML. Yeah. Check on Al Gore. Check
24:56
on Bob Bazar. And see what's going on with Heaven's
24:59
Gates. Three, two, one. The world forgot to know.
25:31
On the road where the tall pines grow. Faded
25:37
voices still call us home. Maps and memories.
25:46
Ash and bone. Falling trails. That time. has
25:57
overcome Walk the road where the fire still glows
26:11
Truth runs deeper than anybody knows Saints and
26:24
sinners So, Paul. Talk to me. We haven't done
26:58
this for a while. We're going to do an exploratory
27:01
episode. Oh, I love it. We've been pretty like,
27:05
this is exactly what we're going to talk about.
27:08
Yes. Or like, here's a question and then let's
27:10
expand on it. And we probably kind of know where
27:13
we're going. There's usually a little bit more
27:15
direction behind it. Yes. But I have a general
27:18
question that I don't... I have not been able
27:23
to find anybody answering this question. Okay.
27:26
Now, people have said things definitively. Yeah.
27:30
But they aren't universally common. And there
27:37
are traditions that people follow, but we all
27:40
know that's... Ancestral. Yeah. Traditions aren't
27:45
always based in reality. Yeah. Yeah. But there
27:47
is something that I feel like I do all the time
27:50
and that I feel like is a common mistake, which
27:53
is basically reading something in the Bible.
27:57
And particularly when it comes to like relationships
28:00
and genealogies. And we look at the genealogy
28:03
and we skip over everything. Yeah. And we forget
28:08
that like there are things not hidden. but I
28:11
guess hidden in plain sight. Yeah. Like if you
28:13
don't know who is who, you don't, you miss some
28:17
of the, like the play that's going on underneath.
28:20
Yeah. Yeah. And not just the play, but potential
28:22
stories of redemption, potential stories of grace
28:26
that exist just simply in the genealogies. Yeah,
28:30
that's true. So there's one that as I was like,
28:35
huh, I hadn't thought about this before. There's
28:38
one that I was like, um didn't realize was so
28:41
contentious and apparently is like a big a big
28:45
deal particularly in the rabbinic tradition oh
28:48
but there's a guy that like we all kind of know
28:52
like if you if you've read the old testament
28:55
so we've knocked out half of the people fair
29:00
uh you should read the old testament yeah well
29:04
you probably at least know the these guys but
29:08
you may not know their names but yeah anyways
29:10
how about we just jump right into it okay let's
29:13
do it i love it okay so it's a very contentious
29:17
question you're about to ask yeah well okay let
29:19
me set the scene okay so okay we have um we have
29:26
This story through Genesis where God is commuting
29:30
with his people, giving them the things that
29:33
he wants them to do on the earth, and they keep
29:35
going and doing their own things, they gain knowledge,
29:38
and they kind of like do whatever they want in
29:40
their own way, and God keeps trying to tell them
29:42
like, hey, I designed you in this way to do it
29:45
this way, do these things like this. If you don't
29:48
do that, then it's just going to be hard for
29:50
you. Yeah, yeah. Like you can do whatever you
29:53
want, but... I'm just telling you. This is where
29:55
it goes. I'm not making it hard on you. Literally,
29:58
it's just going, like, don't do that. Yes. I've
30:02
told you what you need to do. Yeah. You just
30:04
have to do it. Right. So then we come upon this
30:07
guy, Abraham. And Abraham is seen to be righteous.
30:11
And Abraham gets called out of his family lineage
30:14
and walks into this. kind of this communion and
30:18
he begins this uh he becomes the pillar of the
30:21
faith of the family that would ultimately be
30:24
israel yes right and through his descendants
30:27
you have abraham isaac and then jacob and jacob
30:32
wrestles with the angel of the lord and then
30:35
he eventually takes his whole household and he
30:38
goes up to the well at bethel which was abraham's
30:41
well yes and he he brings it all back to life.
30:45
We joked about that. Like the ingredients were
30:48
already there. He just kind of put it back together.
30:50
Yes. Like Abraham built the well, but Jacob just
30:54
kind of put it back together. Yes. But it's remembered
30:56
as Jacob's well. Yeah. It's like the grandson's
31:00
always getting all the credit. You know what
31:03
I sacrificed for that well? yeah i brought that
31:06
wood up here um yeah yeah but i bought the the
31:11
you know the cleaner so yeah well and i brought
31:14
everybody back to the lord you know fair enough
31:17
like you're abraham i'm jacob strong point yeah
31:23
but fair um but acknowledge both thank you um
31:27
but so yeah so there's this there's So we get
31:30
to Jacob. Jacob becomes Israel. And then we have
31:34
the 12 sons of Jacob who become the 12 tribes
31:37
of Israel. Yeah. So you get this lineage that
31:39
kind of all comes out from that. And then in
31:43
the process of that, there's these exiles. Everybody
31:47
seems to constantly end up back in Egypt. We
31:50
just keep... We keep trying to go up, and then
31:52
we just land back in Egypt. We've joked they
31:55
just keep missing the promised land. They're
31:57
just like, let's start here. Oops. Yeah, it's
31:59
a little bit like gravity. Oops. They just keep
32:02
falling to the bottom. So they end up in Egypt.
32:07
As the story goes on, I'm jumping huge steps.
32:10
But they end up in Egypt. Moses, their little
32:15
trickery, all the Israelite. Firstborn, Moses
32:20
grows up with no peers that are Jewish, which
32:23
is interesting. Yes. But he grows up in the palace,
32:28
and he goes out. He flees. He comes back. He
32:33
let my people go, takes the Israelites to the
32:36
Red Sea, not on his own doing, but God splitting
32:39
the Red Sea. They go out into the wilderness.
32:42
They go to Sinai, and they get the law of the
32:45
Lord. The Israelites are saved by Yahweh and
32:49
then they get the instruction to follow so that
32:52
they can stay in communion with Yahweh, right?
32:54
Yeah, yeah. And the intention at this point is
32:57
that they're about to go up into the land of
33:00
Canaan. And the land of Canaan is the land that's
33:03
flowing with milk and honey. And the land that's
33:05
flowing with milk and honey was the land that
33:08
Abraham came through. And when Abraham made the
33:12
well in the first place, God said, descendants
33:17
will take this land. But then he prophesied it's
33:20
going to be a couple hundred years. It'll be
33:22
a while. Yeah. So now we're a couple hundred
33:26
years later. Moses and the Israelites are in
33:29
the desert and they're on the east side coming
33:32
out of Egypt. And they're about to go into the
33:35
promised land, right? And it's not been very
33:38
long that they've come out. they get up to the
33:43
promised land and they look over the edge. Um,
33:46
and they're kind of in the Jericho area, right?
33:48
Yes. They look over the edge of the mountain
33:50
and the Jordan Valley. Um, I just imagine I'm
33:54
like, crawl it like army crawling up. Cause you
33:57
actually can do that. Like the way that the,
33:59
yeah. Oh, that's kind of cool. Yeah. I love that
34:03
you're actually picturing it. I know. And I'm
34:05
just creating a new image. Yeah. Well, it's very
34:08
much like the Jordan Valley is very much like
34:11
it's a cliffside. Okay. So like you're not like
34:17
when you stand in the Jordan Basin near the Jordan
34:21
River and you look up, it's like 10 stories.
34:25
Oh, wow. Like it's a cliffside. Okay. Yeah. So
34:29
like they're like looking over. the edge. And
34:32
when you're down in the Jordan Valley and you
34:34
look up, you can't really see what's on the other
34:36
side of the, the top of the mountain. Yeah. But
34:40
it's not really a mountain. It's really flat
34:42
land once you get up there. So that's why it's
34:44
like kind of a long way to get there. Yeah. Um,
34:47
so anyways, they, uh, army crawl up and they
34:50
look over and what they do is they go, all right,
34:53
let's choose 12 individuals from that would represent
35:00
the 12 tribes of Israel. Let's send them into
35:03
the land of Canaan to spy out, to scout out the
35:06
land and see what we need to do in order to prepare
35:09
ourselves to enter the land. Yeah. Now Yahweh
35:12
has already said, I'm going to deliver this land
35:15
to you. So they don't, arguably they don't even
35:19
really need to send spies. They just need to
35:21
go. Yeah. Yeah. Which. It's something we don't
35:24
really question. It's like, yeah, of course you
35:26
send spies. And you go like, yeah, that's fine.
35:28
Like you always probably like define whatever.
35:31
There's some spies in there. I told you you can
35:33
go, but if you want to send guys, whatever. So
35:38
they go in. I actually don't even really remember
35:40
though. It may be that they were told to send
35:43
the spies. I can't remember off the top of my
35:46
head. No, we'll just jump over that. If you know,
35:48
let us know. Not important to the story. No.
35:52
Or what we were trying to say in the story. Right.
35:55
But what we do see is the 12 tribes represented
35:58
by an individual for each tribe. Yeah. And so
36:02
that's all listed out, right? And so these spies
36:05
go in and they go through a bunch of different
36:08
areas and it accounts for that. And there's actually
36:11
different stories about that, which is kind of
36:13
interesting in the rabbinic tradition. But they
36:15
go through and they basically come back and they
36:18
go, it's better than you thought. Like, it's
36:21
better than you imagine. Like, there's just way
36:27
more milk and honey than you can imagine. They
36:30
go, but there's giants in the land, right? There's
36:33
the sons of Anik. Do you want the good news or
36:36
the bad news? The grapes are as big as your head,
36:39
but... So are the people. Well, bigger. Wait,
36:45
they're tiny. Wait, hold on. Yeah, so... So they
36:51
come back and it specifically says that 10 of
36:53
the 12 say like, we can't do this. They're going
36:59
to kill us. They're going to smush us, right?
37:01
And then two guys go, no, we surely can take
37:05
the land. Yahweh is going to give this into our
37:07
hands. He said he would. Yeah. Once again, yeah,
37:10
like listen to those guys. Yeah, they get it.
37:13
Now the two guys are kind of interesting because
37:15
one of them is Joshua. And Joshua is the son
37:21
of Nun. And if I recall correctly, Joshua, as
37:27
the son of Nun, is... Drumroll, please. Let me
37:34
find it. Find it, find it. Son of Nun. Goes back
37:38
to Ephraim. Son of a Nun. He goes back to Ephraim.
37:42
So Ephraim is one of the 12 tribes of Israel.
37:48
So he's part of the tribe of Ephraim, which is
37:52
one of the sons of Jacob or Israel, right? And
37:56
so Joshua, part of the tribe of Ephraim. And
38:01
then it says Caleb is representing the tribe
38:04
of Judah, but it doesn't just say he's representing
38:08
the tribe of Judah. And if you know anything
38:10
about that, like the tribe of Ephraim, the tribe
38:15
of Ephraim that Joshua is representing. is a
38:19
good tribe, the best tribe. But the tribe that
38:25
Caleb is representing is the tribe of Judah,
38:28
which is the lineage and tribe through which
38:32
David comes, through which Solomon comes, through
38:36
which Jesus eventually comes. Yeah. So one of
38:40
the tribes that's represented saying that we
38:42
can take the land is through the tribe of Judah.
38:48
Yeah. Now, the tricky thing with that, though,
38:49
is it doesn't say that Caleb's dad is a Judite.
38:56
Hmm. It actually says that Caleb's dad is a Kennesite.
39:01
Oh. But he is representing the tribe of Judah.
39:07
So the question is... Oh, that's interesting.
39:10
Why is a non -Judite representing the tribe of
39:14
Judah? Going into the land of the spies. Yeah.
39:18
And how did that end up working out? And what
39:23
is a kinesite? That's fair. It's like a stalactite.
39:31
Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, many things here.
39:37
So what it actually says is. Yeah, that's interesting.
39:40
Like we go into it and in Numbers 32, 12, it
39:43
says. Well, let me recall a little bit of what,
39:47
so 30, number 32, verse 11. Surely none of the
39:52
men who came up out of Egypt from 20 years old
39:55
and upward shall see the land that I swore to
39:58
give to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, because
40:02
they have not wholly followed me. None except
40:05
Caleb, the son of Jephunneh, the Kinesite, and
40:09
Joshua, the son of Nun, for they have wholly
40:12
followed the Lord. So this says Caleb, the son
40:17
of Jephunneh, the Kinesite. But we know that
40:21
Caleb was actually representing the tribe of
40:24
Judah as a spy. Yeah. So that's weird. So how
40:29
did they get adopted into this? Correct. So we
40:33
know Caleb is introduced in this way. It says,
40:37
yeah, Jephunneh, the Kinesite. And the description
40:42
is repeated several times. It's repeated again
40:44
in Joshua 14 .6 and Joshua 14 .14. But the Bible
40:48
intentionally preserves the kinesite. So it's
40:52
intentionally telling you like his lineage is
40:55
different than you think it is. Yeah. Which is
40:57
interesting because... Yeah, that's fascinating.
41:01
So kinesite... All right. So Kenesai, what is
41:06
Kenesai? It literally in Hebrew would mean descendants
41:09
of Kenaz, K -E -N -A -Z, Kenaz, or member of
41:15
the clan of Kenaz. Okay. So then you go back
41:18
and you go, all right, well, who were they? Yeah.
41:21
So Kenaz, this is, so Kenaz, we would see, and
41:25
I'm definitely not saying that right, but Kenaz.
41:29
Kinez, Kinez, Kinez, Kinez. Kinez sounds nice.
41:32
Thanks. So, all right. So this is why this is
41:38
like an exploratory one because it's like - Now
41:40
you're tracing genealogies. Yes. So then we go
41:43
back and you go, all right, well, where do we
41:45
see Kinez? And one of the places where we see
41:52
it is in Genesis 12. which is kind of interesting.
41:59
Yeah, I think. Hang on. No, you're good. Let
42:06
me get there. It's interesting because I'm sure
42:09
it's going to come up here. It's like, because
42:12
at this point, it is interesting and worth noting,
42:16
I think, and you might get to this, where it's
42:20
like the, because we talk about Israel escaping.
42:25
Egypt. Yes. But what's interesting is we don't
42:28
talk about a lot is like, they weren't the only
42:30
ones to go. Oh, right. And so what I'm curious
42:35
about, and you might get to, or it might show
42:38
up here is like, there were a lot of people that
42:41
were non Hebrews or non Israelites that also
42:46
left with Israel and Egypt. And I guess they
42:51
would have to belong to some tribe. Yeah, exactly.
42:54
And part of it is like, I wonder if it's like,
42:57
is it another maybe Egyptian family that was
43:01
like, okay, we want to join the Israelites. Yeah.
43:04
Let's get adopted into a specific tribe. Well,
43:07
and we see that in Judges. Yeah, yeah. So we
43:10
see the family in Judges that was friends with
43:16
Moses' father -in -law. Yeah. And they end up
43:20
helping out the Israelite tribe. Yeah, yeah,
43:24
exactly. Which is interesting. All right, so
43:27
Genesis 36, verse 9. These are the generations
43:33
of Esau, the father of the Edomites in the hill
43:37
country of Sir. These are the names of Esau's
43:40
sons, Eliphaz, the son of Ada, the wife of Esau,
43:43
Raal, the son of Basemath. That sounds like a
43:49
cool name. The wife of Esau. The sons of Eliphaz
43:53
were Timon, Omar, Zepho, Gadam, and Kanaz. Oh,
43:58
there it is. So this is the sons of Eliphaz.
44:03
So it's supposedly the same Kanaz. This is where
44:08
we see Kanaz. And it lists it down here, the
44:12
sons of Eliphaz, the firstborn of Esau. So the
44:15
firstborn of Esau. his genealogy, like his kids,
44:22
the chief, the first born, sorry, the sons of
44:25
Eliphaz, the first born of Esau, the chiefs,
44:27
Teman, Omar, Zepho, Kanaz, Korah, Gadam, and
44:32
Amalek. These are the chiefs of Eliphaz in the
44:38
land of Edom. These are the sons of Ada. So yeah,
44:43
you have all of these pieces where Where when
44:48
you look through, you look at the Kenesites.
44:54
It sounds like it could be it. Yeah, and there's
45:01
this break off of Jacob and Esau. And Esau and
45:07
the Edomite tribe, there's this breakdown there
45:11
that the descendants there, like the grandson
45:14
of Esau. would have been Canaz. That's interesting.
45:21
Yeah, so it's almost like there's speculation
45:25
in this that as you look at the genealogies,
45:28
that the descendants of Esau end up tying back
45:34
in to the descendants of Jacob. That's fascinating.
45:39
Because they get assimilated within the tribes
45:42
over time. Because eventually Jacob and Esau
45:46
make up. Yes. They come back together. Yeah.
45:49
And when they come back together, you see this
45:51
merging of the families. Yeah. Right. So there's
45:54
an assumption in the rabbinic tradition that
45:56
that's what would happen. So the sons of Edom
46:00
would be from Esau, right? So yeah. So Genesis
46:05
36, 11, that's where this name appears, right?
46:09
So you have Esau, Eliphaz, and then Kanaz, and
46:12
then the Kinesites, which would be the actual
46:15
clan, right? So this is building on the possible
46:19
reconstruction of this would be Esau, Eliphaz,
46:24
Kenaz, the Kenazite clan from which Jephunneh,
46:29
the father of Caleb, would have come, right?
46:34
That's fascinating. Now, the Bible never explicitly
46:36
says that this is the genealogy. Yeah. But a
46:39
lot of this comes from the rabbinic tradition.
46:41
So what we know is Kenaz is an Edomite name.
46:45
Yeah. So Kenesite is someone who is a descendant
46:52
of Kenaz. And we know that Kenaz is a Edomite
46:56
name. Yes. Right? And Edomite is descendant of
46:59
Esau. Correct. Okay. And then Caleb is called
47:03
a Kenesite. Therefore, many scholars conclude
47:05
Caleb belongs to an Edomite or Kenesite clan.
47:09
That's fascinating. So this is the merging of
47:11
these two things. Yeah. Which is reasonable.
47:14
But it's not explicitly biblical. But you have
47:17
to remember that the Bible does keep saying that
47:23
Caleb is the son of a non -Judah. Yeah. Like
47:30
a non -Judite. So why does it keep saying that?
47:33
Which would put him as kind of like an outsider.
47:35
It would. Yeah. But he's representing the tribe
47:38
of Judah. Yeah, which is where it gets murky.
47:40
It's interesting. Yeah. So the blending of these
47:43
two things. So then another Kenaz appears in
47:46
Joshua 15, 17 with Othniel, who is one of the
47:50
judges. Oh, yeah. And Othniel, the son of Kenaz.
47:54
Wasn't he the first judge? He was the first judge.
47:57
That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And actually,
47:58
that's a pretty critical piece, too, because
48:00
in Joshua 15, 17, it says, Othniel, the son of
48:04
Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother. Oh, interesting.
48:08
So Othniel, the first judge of Israel, is the
48:12
younger brother of Caleb. So he would also be
48:15
an Edomite. Or a Kenizzite. He would be a Kenizzite.
48:19
Yeah. That would be more appropriate. His father
48:21
also would be Jenutha. I need to figure out how
48:26
to say his name. It's a weird name. So what that
48:28
means is the first judge of Israel, Othniel,
48:32
is technically not part of the 12 tribes. But
48:35
he's represented in the tribe of Judah. Yeah.
48:38
So he would be the first judge comes from the
48:41
tribe of Judah, but his lineage is not blood.
48:47
Yeah. No. But if he's an Edomite, his blood still
48:51
technically goes back to Isaac. Yes. Which is
48:55
weird. That's so interesting. Yeah. Right. Because
49:00
as an Edomite, he would be. the grandson still
49:04
of Isaac. Yes. So it's like this merging back.
49:07
But not from the line of Jacob. No, from the
49:10
line of Esau. Yes. Yeah. So it's like this tricky
49:14
play here. So then, okay, so then Judges 1 .13
49:19
restates it. Othniel, the son of Canaz, Caleb's
49:23
younger brother. This creates another interesting,
49:26
was Caleb's family already using the name Canaz
49:29
instead of Judah? So, like, were they calling
49:33
themselves Kinasites after being Judites? Yeah,
49:39
that's interesting. So, one of the options presented
49:42
in the scholarly discussion is, is Kinas simply
49:47
Caleb's younger brother? Like, is that simply
49:52
just someone's name? Like, is that... But that
49:55
doesn't really make sense in how it's used. So
49:58
the Kinesite is an inherited family clan name
50:01
preserved from earlier Kinesite ancestry. I think
50:06
the interesting part for me here is if they represent
50:11
the tribe of Judah, why does the Bible keep saying
50:15
they're not from the tribe of Judah? Correct.
50:18
Well, so Numbers 13, 6. Numbers 13, chapter...
50:24
Chapter 13, verse 6 says, Caleb, the son of Jephunneh,
50:31
but it doesn't say the genocide here. So as it's
50:37
listing all of the individuals, like when it
50:40
lists the spies being sent, in that passage,
50:43
in Numbers 13, it just says who his dad is. But
50:46
then later it does distinguish him. Right, so
50:50
like in this, like Numbers chapter 13, it says,
50:53
and these were their names, from the tribe of
50:57
Reuben, Shammuah, the son of Sakaar, from the
51:01
tribe of Simeon, Saphat, the son of Horai, from
51:04
the tribe of Judah, Caleb, the son of Zephunah.
51:07
So if you read it, like that's what I was getting
51:09
back to, is like if you just read it like this,
51:12
it's like, well, they're just naming the tribe,
51:15
the guy, and his dad. And you go, yeah, but why
51:19
would they name his dad? And you go, well, there
51:22
must be some importance there. Like if we look
51:24
to what that means. So what that would mean is
51:28
like by the time we get to number 13, by the
51:31
time Moses sends the spies, Caleb is already
51:34
a tribal leader and he's representing Judah and
51:37
he's accepted without any... Without any disqualification.
51:42
Like he's accepted as a tribal leader of Judah.
51:47
Yes. So there's not really a hint at that point
51:51
that he's considered an outsider. Right. But,
51:55
okay. So then the 12 spies, they enter Canaan
51:58
and they see fortified cities, Anakim and giants.
52:02
10 return, like we said, only Joshua and Cable.
52:06
Caleb trusted God. Yeah. So. The giants in Numbers
52:12
13 .22, it says they came to Hebron where Haman,
52:17
I'm so bad at these names. There's some weird
52:20
names. Sheshai and Talmai, the descendants of
52:23
Anak were there. And then Numbers 13 .33, we
52:28
also saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak are part
52:30
of the Nephilim, right? Yeah. So whether, well,
52:34
you can get into our conversations about that.
52:36
There's a lot with that. Yes. It's not that straightforward.
52:39
but they're very much similar. Yeah. So here's
52:43
something that is kind of interesting is when
52:46
we get into the tribes that come out of Esau
52:50
and their relationship to the Anakim and the
52:56
sons of Anak. Yeah. The descendants of Esau move
53:01
also into the land of Canaan. Yeah. And there's
53:05
some overlap there with giant blood. Yes. So
53:10
the Edomites, there's this overlap there with
53:14
the giants in the land of Canaan. So you have
53:18
this potential overlap of these two things. And
53:23
there's an interesting piece that I didn't really
53:25
realize until looking into this. But in Joshua
53:28
14, 12, Caleb says, give me this hill country.
53:34
For you heard on that day that Anakim were there
53:37
with great fortified cities. So when Caleb is
53:41
85 years old, he specifically asked for the land
53:44
that's occupied by the giants. Interesting. So
53:49
in Joshua 15, 13 through 14, Caleb drove out
53:53
from there the three sons of Anak. The very giants
53:57
he once spied became the enemies he defeats.
54:01
That's cool. So Caleb goes in and spies these
54:04
and then he asks for the hill country that he
54:08
might then go in and take that for himself. Yeah.
54:11
Okay. That's kind of cool. So there's absolutely
54:16
no biblical evidence that Caleb descended from
54:19
Anak or the Nephilim. Okay. Yes. Let's just say
54:23
that. However, if Caleb descended from Edom and
54:28
Edom descended from Esau, And Esau married Canaanite
54:32
women. Genesis 26, 34, Esau took Judith and Basmath.
54:39
Basmath. Basmath. Basmath. And these were Hittite
54:46
women. Genesis 36 adds Horites and other local
54:50
people in Esau's family. So could Edomite bloodlines
54:55
have... intermixed with Canaanite clans where
54:58
giants once lived. Yes. But could Caleb therefore
55:07
have had distant Canaanite ancestry? And that's
55:12
where I feel like it would depend on which line.
55:15
Right. Yeah. That's where we don't really have...
55:17
Because that's where it's like we don't know
55:18
that every line did or... I mean, technically,
55:21
yeah. We don't know that every line followed
55:24
that same path. No. To have that kind of bloodline.
55:27
Correct. And so it would be a leap to say they
55:30
all do. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like right
55:37
now we can't definitively say he didn't. Sure.
55:41
But the fact that he was accepted into the tribe
55:43
of Judah and they cared a lot about bloodlines,
55:46
it would seem to say that he wasn't. Right. So
55:51
if Caleb... is a Kenesite, and the Kenesites
55:55
are descendants of Canaan. Yeah. Kenan? Kenaz?
56:02
Kenaz. Thank you. I'm almost saying Canaan. Yeah,
56:07
I was like, wait, wait. Kenaz. And Kenaz is the
56:13
Kenesite tribe that comes from Edom. Yeah. Or
56:17
Esau. Then potentially Caleb. And the Kenesites
56:23
would have been more closely related to the cultural
56:26
understandings and the lineage of the Canaanites.
56:30
Yes. Because the Canaanites, the Canaanite women
56:35
married into the line of Esau. Yeah. So then
56:40
Caleb's ancestry would have included Canaanite
56:46
blood. Yeah, true. Necessarily. Yes. So if the
56:50
Kenesites... were actually who Jephunneh, the
56:57
father of Caleb, if that's his bloodline, then
57:02
that means Caleb's bloodline is partially Canaanite.
57:05
Yeah, there would be Canaanite blood in there.
57:08
Which is interesting because that puts Caleb
57:10
in this position where he's leading from the
57:14
tribe of Judah, which eventually the Messiah
57:16
comes, and he's taking them into the land of
57:20
Canaan. And he's going, guys, it's fine. Yeah.
57:25
His ancestral memories may be different than
57:29
the rest of the Israelites. I mean, that's fair.
57:33
Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, that makes
57:35
sense. So he could have had stories from his
57:38
great grandmothers, right? Yeah. Of the Canaanite
57:42
tribes. Oh, Uncle Anik. He's quite a guy. Uncle
57:46
Anik. But, like, that's, yeah. So then, like,
57:53
the wild speculative idea would be, like, maybe
57:58
Caleb is going in and going, like, let's trap
58:02
this guy Joshua, right? But obviously that's
58:06
not what he's doing because what he eventually
58:07
does is he goes, hey, give me the hill country.
58:11
I'm going to go in and take out the giants. And
58:13
he does. So he essentially. If you look at it,
58:17
so if you look at it in what the actual actions
58:19
are in a biblical standpoint, it means that through
58:24
the line of Esau, eventually you get Kinesite
58:28
women or Kinesite leaders who then are adopted
58:33
into the ancestry of Judah. Yeah. And they lead
58:37
and where their bloodline was tainted, even though
58:41
that blood is in their veins. they are able to
58:45
help lead and get rid of the giants in the land.
58:50
And not only that, but also be the first judge
58:52
to rule Israel. Yes. Right, because it's Caleb's
58:56
brother. Yeah. Right. So Othniel would have been
58:59
bloodline partially Canaanite. Yeah, which is
59:03
weird to think about. Very weird to think about.
59:05
It doesn't seem like it should go together. No,
59:07
it doesn't. But at the same time, it... makes
59:10
sense that it would. It does. Even if we think
59:13
about Jew versus Gentile. Exactly. It's a Gentile
59:17
adopted into the Jewish tribes and then set in
59:23
a place of leadership and then going back and
59:27
making right the things that the Gentiles had
59:30
done wrong. Yeah, that's fascinating. It is kind
59:32
of crazy. And you don't expect to see that kind
59:35
of story in the Old Testament. Correct. Yeah,
59:37
that's really interesting. Yeah, and then there's
59:40
this... Okay, so... Apparently, rabbis love Caleb.
59:50
So in the... There are posters of Caleb in there?
59:52
Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the Babylonian Talmud, Sotah
59:57
34b... Caleb, Caleb. The synagogue goes wild.
1:00:08
So Caleb secretly separates from the spies and
1:00:12
goes to Hebron in the Babylonian Talmud, right?
1:00:16
He prays at the cave of Machpelah, which is a
1:00:21
cave where Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob went, asking
1:00:24
God to preserve him from the conspiracy of the
1:00:27
other spies. This is now rabbinic tradition.
1:00:30
This is not Bible. Yeah. So this is the Babylonian
1:00:34
Talmud, which really wasn't finished being compiled
1:00:37
until a couple hundred years A .D. Okay. Wow.
1:00:41
So the Babylonian Talmud. So this is part of
1:00:44
the rabbinic tradition that when they entered
1:00:49
the land of Canaan, Caleb separated himself from
1:00:51
the other spies, went to this cave. and prayed
1:00:55
that the Lord would preserve him from the conspiracy
1:00:58
of the other spies, meaning... The conspiracy
1:01:00
of not entering. Correct. Okay. So praying in
1:01:05
a place where he knew Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
1:01:07
had prayed. Oh, that's interesting. In order
1:01:09
that he might have the strength when he gets
1:01:11
back to represent well what the Lord has called
1:01:14
them to do, right? Which makes sense. It's speculative,
1:01:17
but... Absolutely. But... Numbers 13 never says
1:01:25
this happened. It simply notes that they came
1:01:27
to Hebron, right? We read that a little bit earlier.
1:01:30
Yes. Now, another Jewish tradition that's not
1:01:33
biblical is that Caleb married Miriam. And you
1:01:40
might be like, who's Miriam? Wait, I think I
1:01:43
know who it is, but... Yeah. So the rabbis identify
1:01:48
Miriam with Azuba and... Ephrath in 1 Chronicles.
1:01:56
Miriam is the sister of Moses. Okay, that's who
1:01:59
I thought it was. I just didn't want to sound
1:02:01
stupid and say it out loud. I was like, no, I
1:02:04
know that name. I think it's related to Moses.
1:02:07
Yeah. So in 1 Chronicles 2, it contains complicated
1:02:11
genealogies. It never explicitly says that Miriam
1:02:15
married Caleb. This is a rabbinic interpretation.
1:02:18
So these are just like rabbinic traditions around
1:02:21
Caleb. So they're just like, we love Caleb. How
1:02:23
do we get him into Moses? Yeah. Because he's
1:02:26
a top dog. Their tradition is that he married
1:02:30
Moses' sister. I mean, which I guess in a way
1:02:35
would put him kind of like he's up with the big
1:02:38
dogs. Right. Yeah. Which, I mean, to be fair,
1:02:41
he and Joshua led. I mean, it's like not. Yeah.
1:02:45
Yeah. And then his younger brother becomes the
1:02:48
first judge of Israel. It's like oatmeal. Like
1:02:50
guy did great, great work. Yeah. It's awesome
1:02:54
though. That is cool. I just love the fanfic
1:02:58
about it. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.
1:03:02
So the early church largely ignores Caleb's ancestry.
1:03:08
As one does. Sounds about right. Because they
1:03:12
also don't like talking about giants. Yeah. It's
1:03:14
hard not to when you're going to bring up ancestry.
1:03:16
Right. So they look at Joshua as leading everyone
1:03:21
into rest, and Caleb as the faithful believer
1:03:25
inheriting the promises. So his genealogy kind
1:03:28
of becomes secondary, which is why we don't really
1:03:30
talk about it very much. It makes sense, yeah.
1:03:33
It doesn't, yeah. Even though it's like genealogies
1:03:36
were clearly very important to... like all of
1:03:41
ancient Israel. Yeah, and the Bible like repeatedly
1:03:44
preserves the idea that Caleb is the son of Jephunneh,
1:03:48
the Kenesite. It never really hides that background.
1:03:51
So if Caleb was indeed descended from Edom and
1:03:54
incorporated into Judah, then one of Israel's
1:03:57
greatest heroes was likely not ethnically descended
1:04:00
from Jacob. Yeah, that's interesting. Which is
1:04:03
wild. But scripture celebrates him because...
1:04:07
Joshua 14 .8 says, he has followed the Lord my
1:04:10
God fully. And Joshua 14 .14, because he wholly
1:04:15
followed the Lord, the God of Israel. So the
1:04:18
story moves from bloodline to covenant. It moves
1:04:22
from like what potentially could have been his
1:04:25
bloodline and elevates the covenant because of
1:04:29
his righteousness in following Yahweh's commands.
1:04:32
Yeah. So again, it goes back to that idea, that
1:04:36
simple idea of like, there's a potential that
1:04:39
Caleb is an Edomite. Yeah. Which means that he's
1:04:43
closer to the, he's like partially from the Canaanites
1:04:48
out of the sinfulness of Esau. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
1:04:54
He marries into the Hittite women and descendants
1:04:58
of Canaanites. And so you have this, where all
1:05:03
of a sudden later on, as there's reconciliation
1:05:05
between Esau and Jacob, you have the Kinesites
1:05:09
being incorporated into the tribe of Judah. Yeah.
1:05:14
To the point where descendants later, you have
1:05:18
Caleb, who is the leader of the tribe of Judah,
1:05:22
going in to represent the spies. Now, that doesn't
1:05:25
necessarily mean that Caleb is the head person
1:05:29
of the tribe of Judah. He was just the chosen
1:05:32
representative for that task. Correct. So he
1:05:34
was a leader. Yeah. But that would mean that
1:05:37
his bloodline was not pure in the way that the
1:05:41
other tribes would have been pure. Right. And
1:05:44
that he would have been grafted into covenant
1:05:46
through faithfulness and righteousness of his
1:05:49
ability to follow the letter of the law. Yeah.
1:05:53
And then that brings him into a place where he's
1:05:55
in leadership over the tribe from which the Messiah
1:05:59
comes. Which is pretty cool. It is, and it's
1:06:02
also true to the Old Testament. Yes. That the
1:06:06
line by which the Messiah comes includes women.
1:06:10
Yeah. In the genealogy. It includes kind of the
1:06:14
least of these. It includes a bunch of things
1:06:17
where it's like, this is pure, but it also is
1:06:20
like, I don't think that that's not a lineage
1:06:25
of kings. Yeah. Like the line of the Savior.
1:06:30
is not a lineage of kings. No. Which is kind
1:06:34
of cool. I think it's, yeah, it's pretty sweet.
1:06:36
So Caleb would be represented similar in this
1:06:38
if we chase down that idea of his genealogy and
1:06:42
the representation that Kenesite goes back to
1:06:44
Kenaz, which would be a descendant of Edom in
1:06:49
the line of Esau. Yeah. So then Caleb, one of
1:06:54
the two, which oddly enough too is like, you
1:06:57
know, jesus the name jesus and the name joshua
1:07:01
yeah same name are the same name yeah yeah yeah
1:07:06
which is funny it's kind of funny so if you look
1:07:09
at it that way it's like there's two guys that
1:07:12
come in and one of them's name is basically jesus
1:07:15
yeah and then the other guy um is potentially
1:07:19
has blood mixed with the canaanites Right, yeah.
1:07:25
But he's leading the tribe of Judah from which
1:07:27
the next Jesus will come, right? So yeah, getting
1:07:32
these two guys together. So then you kind of
1:07:34
go like, all right, so was one of the guys who
1:07:38
helped lead the Israelites into the land of the
1:07:40
giants also blood related to the giants? And
1:07:44
the answer is - Possibly, yeah. Maybe. And a
1:07:49
cooler story. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting
1:07:52
because I feel like, It is kind of, my brain
1:07:55
goes in two different ways. On one of them, it's
1:07:57
like, when you say it that way, it's kind of
1:08:00
the similar symbolism in a much faster pace we
1:08:03
get of like the thief on the cross with Jesus.
1:08:06
Right. Where it's kind of like, all right, here's
1:08:08
this guy who's got a whole different history,
1:08:11
but he recognizes the truth. Yeah. And he accepts
1:08:14
it and he's grafted into it. Yes. But then on
1:08:17
the other side, I think of. Just the idea of
1:08:20
bloodlines, because that's such a big deal. I
1:08:22
know. And I think what's cool about seeing the
1:08:25
story with Caleb is, and even just like the speculative
1:08:32
nature of like, there's a very good chance that
1:08:36
his blood was tainted. Yeah. And actually that
1:08:38
makes the story much cooler. Yeah. And even for
1:08:41
us today, because it's like... Where it's like,
1:08:45
okay, yeah, the sins of the father will go down
1:08:46
to the third and fourth generation. Right, right,
1:08:48
right. And so what I'm saying with that is like,
1:08:51
yeah, the decisions that we make affects our
1:08:54
kids, kids, kids. Sure. And the decisions that
1:08:58
our grandparents made affect us. Yeah. And so
1:09:03
in one, it's a call to be like, yeah, you need
1:09:05
to make sure you make good choices. Yeah. But
1:09:07
if you're caught in a bloodline, to use that
1:09:10
language, of like, oh, that person, like my great
1:09:14
grandmother was a witch. I'm not saying that's
1:09:18
true. But maybe that's someone's story. And it's
1:09:22
like, yeah, but looking at Caleb, you're not
1:09:24
trapped in that condemnation or that grasp in
1:09:29
a bloodline. But Christ, even in the Old Testament,
1:09:33
is like, no, I'll free you from that. Yeah, for
1:09:35
sure. Yeah. Pretty cool. It's pretty awesome.
1:09:38
And also this whole conversation is extremely
1:09:42
speculative. Yeah. And we never said it wasn't.
1:09:48
So everything we just talked about may or may
1:09:51
not be true. Yeah. And it really doesn't matter.
1:09:54
Because it's fun. But what is true is that people
1:10:00
have talked about this idea for a long time.
1:10:02
Yeah. So it's that concept of like... Hey, if
1:10:07
you ever hear anybody be like, hey, you know,
1:10:10
Caleb, the guy with Joshua who led people, the
1:10:12
people of Israel, the children of Israel. And
1:10:15
he was a Canaanite, by the way. It's like, well,
1:10:18
maybe descended. But he also like he wasn't a
1:10:24
spy for the other side. Right. Well, I think
1:10:28
that's the cool thing about it, because even
1:10:30
like theologically, it's like it doesn't matter
1:10:33
one way or the other. Correct. It's almost cooler
1:10:37
that he could have been descendant of Canaanites.
1:10:40
Yes. But at the same time, it doesn't change
1:10:42
the story. No. And it's still like a beautiful
1:10:45
redemption. Yes. Regardless. Yes. It's like,
1:10:48
yeah, someone's like, oh, yeah, you know, his
1:10:49
great grandfather was a giant. It's like, okay.
1:10:52
Right. It also represents the idea that like
1:10:55
when we think of the 12 tribes of Israel. Yeah.
1:10:58
I think a lot of times we think of like. like
1:11:01
a close -knit family. Like the tribe of Judah
1:11:05
was like, you know, like six or seven brothers
1:11:10
that all had like 10 kids each or something like
1:11:14
that. It's like, no, a tribe was like sometimes
1:11:18
100 ,000 people. Yes, it's massive. Which is
1:11:21
insane. Yeah. So like then you go within that
1:11:24
and you go, okay, well, within that larger tribe,
1:11:26
there's smaller groupings. Yeah. So that's where
1:11:28
you get things like the Kinesites, right? So
1:11:31
you get stuff like that. There actually could
1:11:34
have been more incorporated genealogies like
1:11:38
that that aren't even necessarily talked about.
1:11:41
I mean, even with what I mentioned earlier with
1:11:44
the Exodus, it's like, yeah, Egyptians joined
1:11:47
the Israelites. For sure. And it's just like,
1:11:50
well, hold on, that's a whole other mixture.
1:11:52
Yeah, but those are probably the ones that were
1:11:54
killed off when they did the golden calf. Very
1:11:58
possible. they were probably purified yeah yes
1:12:03
who knows side point so i mean even like all
1:12:06
that to say it's like there is this accepting
1:12:08
of other people yeah into it it's not like hey
1:12:11
sorry you're not yeah you're not one of john's
1:12:14
kids yeah get out of here yeah get john's kids
1:12:19
out of here yeah it's true though yeah so then
1:12:23
i guess the question would be was caleb a giant
1:12:30
No. Three, two, one.