Latest / The Shed Organics Show / #21 - Fermentation & Living Soil Biology | Cam [Organic Ferments]

Transcript

#21 - Fermentation & Living Soil Biology | Cam [Organic Ferments] · The Shed Organics Show

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Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode
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of The Shed Organic Show. My name is Jordan and today we
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have an absolute legend in the game, Cam from
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organicferments.com. He is joining us today to talk
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all about ferments, fermentation and the incredible benefits that
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you can get out of doing ferments at home yourself.
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And if you can't do that, please reach out to Cam.
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He'll be more than happy to help you out and get started in that
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journey. Now in today's conversation, you
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will hear all sorts of different things about soil biology,
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making plant available nutrients through both liquid form and
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obviously breaking down through mulch layer, composting, organic
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amendments like the number one blend and all of this in
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relation to organic living soil. Now, Cam and I both share the
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same passion for organic living, soil, being able to grow in any
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size container, whether you're growing in a small pot or
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container on your balcony, all the way out to acreage where you
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can have huge permaculture style gardens as well to cultivate
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your own food. And ultimately stop relying on
1:16
our systems, our food chains, our supermarkets and things like
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this. We're trying to empower and
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bring the knowledge back into ourselves and into the local
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communities so that we know exactly how to do the things
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that we need to do to grow healthy food for ourselves, our
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families, and our communities. Now, I'm a huge fan of Cam and
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everything that he has to offer, and I'm sure by the end of this
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conversation you will be too. So please sit back, relax, and
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let's dive into the world of organic living soil with Cam
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from Organic Ferments. Tell me a little bit about like
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ferments in general and why ferments are something that
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either is important or it's something that people are now
2:24
becoming more aware of is important.
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Jordy, I think they're important because one, it's a probiotic.
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Now we know probiotics are good for us.
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They're good for our gut health. There's so much research to
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suggest our gut health is pretty much the same as soil health.
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You know what I mean? It works the same things are
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breaking down organic matter, taking the nutrients and
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expelling the waste. So I think the look, a lot of
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people are getting into it as a way of being more
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self-sufficient. And especially if you're closing
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the loop. So you're growing say your own
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comfrey, which I know you would any, like anyone who's into
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organics and sort of permaculture would be doing
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that. So if you're growing your own
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comfrey and you're using it like as a chop and drop, well, why
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not take some of it, Chuck it in a fermentor with some an 1 or
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some labs and some rainwater and some molasses and then have that
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availability immediately, You know what I mean?
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So when you're chopping and dropping, you've got to wait for
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the worms and everything to break it down, whereas when you
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ferment it, you can then fold your spray so your plants will
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uptake it within minutes. You know what I mean?
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And you'll see the benefits. That's wicked.
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So tell me. It feels good, plus it feels
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good growing things, fermenting it, chopping and dropping like
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you're closing the loop so and having your fingers in soil is
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brilliant. Totally agree, bro.
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And the, the big thing there that you said like about the,
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the relationship between our own microbiome in our gut and then
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the soil microbiome, it's we're essentially trying to bring in
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more of these microbes into the soil to be able to do the work
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for us. And I was speaking about it
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yesterday at the, at the garden share and we're talking about
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how microbes are the key to everything really into the key
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to soil health. Well, not only just the
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microbes, the whole soil system, but if you've got a soil that's
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microbe depleted and it's just sort of it's dead, it's not a
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living soil, then you're not going to have a healthy plant
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and therefore not healthy food or we're not going to be healthy
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in turn. So can you touch on a little bit
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about that like the reason why ferments are developing all of
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these microbes and you mentioned like the LAB or the EM1 and
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things like this. Can you just go into a little
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bit about the process maybe of fermentation and why, why that
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is like generating such plant available nutrients?
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Yeah, for sure. So when you, you, you chop your,
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your plants down, we take the, the sort of the 1st 4 inches of
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growth. So the apical growth where all
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of the enzymes and, and growth hormones are in the plant.
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And we do this when the plants are respiring.
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So first thing in the morning, we're coming out and we're
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chopping all of the good stuff out of the plant before it's
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transpiring, before it's actively using it's it's own
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reserves to grow. So we're cutting it down.
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We're we're trapping that, we're throwing it in a fermenter,
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we're adding AM one and labs. So that's essentially effective
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microorganisms, which is different types of yeast.
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There's a couple of different sort of Lactobacillus in there
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as well. Then we're adding in the the
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homemade labs that we make, which has got Lactobacillus
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plantarum and fermentum in it as well.
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Then you're adding a sugar source.
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So molasses is the a great one because the less refined the
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better. Right Now when you add your
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microbes and your molasses in, they consume the molasses first.
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It's easy to digest once they've proliferated enough and they go
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to work on the plant matter that you've added.
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So they chew down on the plant matter, they take all of the
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nutrients out and they store it in aph stable acidic solution.
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So the pH, once it's digested, the plant material sits at
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around 3 to 3.5 pH. Now that's shelf stable too.
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So you can keep it in a cool dark place.
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Some will die off right? But when you're you're
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rehydrating it, so you're diluting it.
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When you're ready to use it, you're diluting it and then
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adding it into a, a living soil sort of system.
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So you're adding bacteria into the soil, which is the ideal
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space for it to go to work. It does what it does.
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Now we touched on it before, you know, phosphorus being the most
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available or the most prolific nutrient in all of our soils,
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but it's the most locked out. So when we're adding lactic acid
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bacteria or ferments, you know, an acidic solution to our soils
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where we're liberating the phosphorus out of these bound up
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molecules because the lactic acid bacteria loves to eat rocks
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at the end of the day. So yeah, look, there's so much
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to be said about the way that we could improve our soils.
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And you know, one of the simplest ways is to prevent your
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soil from being hydrophobic. Trail layer of mulch down.
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Start there, start with mulch, start with a bit of top dress
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mulch and then dump some firmaments on there and just
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watch your soil help improve. I certainly saw that when I was
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using some of your products on the chili experiment that I was
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doing and still am doing on YouTube.
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It's now as the temperatures dropped, chilies are kind of,
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you know, coming back and I've had a few issues with the
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possums coming in and just wiping out all of the the leaf
8:21
material on there. But I saw some some amazing
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growth from just throwing some of these ferments on.
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And as you say, it's pretty immediate.
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It comes in and just does the job exactly how we wanted to do
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it. Yeah, you touched on so many
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cool things in there that like even just the lactic acid
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bacteria and the and is it effective microbes, the EM1?
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Effective microorganisms. Microorganisms.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's brilliant stuff developed
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in Japan, I think originally. Wow, actually I've just released
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what we use. So we've released a product
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that's a, it's a lactic acid bacteria or inoculant for like a
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probiotic starter for your ferments as well as a KNF
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inoculant as well. So a lot of a lot of what we do
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is, you know, based around sort of the, the holistic way of
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doing things. And I take a lot of inspiration
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from people like Chris Trump. And firstly, I'd like to give a
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massive shout out to Malls Philippelli from Fermented Plant
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Extracts, the the Probiotic Pioneer that that sort of
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started me on this journey anyway, and a lot of other
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people I know of as well, as well as Jeremy from Builder Soil
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and AJ from Growing Organic. All great people, great
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teachers, great educators in that space.
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Sorry, I forgot where I was going.
9:49
No, that's OK. That's all good.
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I was just talking like I wanted to kind of jump into the you,
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you mentioned you've got these two new products, the starters
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and things like that. So how would how would someone
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use those if I was to purchase them from you?
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And why do we use those? Well, Geordie, the the, the way
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you would use it, all the directions are on the label, but
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you'd use the ratio is sort of 1 to 1 to 1 to 100.
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So 1 cup of our inoculate or microbe solution or starter,
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whatever you want to call it, a cup of molasses for.
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For the feed. Microbes.
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Yeah. 100 parts rainwater. Yes, and rainwater is important,
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isn't it? As opposed to town water.
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Yeah, look, you can use whatever water you want at the end of the
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day, as long as it's got no chlorine or chloramines in it.
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If you're using town water, let it sit or put a bubbler in it.
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Aerator. Stick your head in it.
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Sorry. What about like demineralized
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water or your kind of reverse osmosis kind of water?
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Is that where it's completely free of everything?
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Is that still good? Look, I believe it would be just
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because it's got no microbes in it is irrelevant because we're
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adding our own anyway. The only the only thing you may
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get from using rainwater is a tiny little bit of atmospheric
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nitrogen that it captures on the way here.
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Which is could be a good thing I guess.
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Yeah, rainwater's good, you know what I mean?
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It's probably not as good these days as it once was with all of
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you know what's going on, but. Absolutely no, I don't what you
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mean cool. So then you've got your
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rainwater, you've got your molasses, your food, you got
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your starter, which contains all of the the bacteria and the
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microbes, right that you're going to be dumping in there.
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And then you're adding all this plus your plant material, I
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guess, which either for you is you come free, you've got the is
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it, do you do Peach as well? No, Miles.
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Well, when our orchard starts fruiting, I will.
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Yeah, for sure. After, after we feed ourselves
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first, We'll we'll use what we've got leftover or bits of
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waste, you know. But yeah, we will be,
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definitely. That's awesome.
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And then you do that's. That's the miles for the moment,
12:15
but we will be. Yeah, cool, cool.
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And you do. The other one is beetroot,
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carrot, pumpkin combo. Yeah.
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And you do an alfalfa. Yeah, and then an insect Brass.
12:26
And stinging nettle. And stinging nettle.
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Oh, I didn't know. OK, cool.
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Stinging nettle's brilliant. It's a lot like comfrey in that
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it's a dynamic accumulator. Sends down a a massive root
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system that that sort of grabs onto hard to reach nutrients
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that are deep in the soil profile, brings them up, stores
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it in the foliage, Then your boy comes along, drops it, drops it
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into the fermenter and away we go.
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That's brilliant. And then, yeah, so all of these
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different, like you say, the difference between something
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like a comfrey versus maybe even the insect frass, they're very
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well, maybe not hugely different, but they do have
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their different uses and their different properties that will
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add into the soil, right. Even though, so like what I'm
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trying to wrap my head around is that you have these microbes,
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microorganisms, bacteria that are going in there and doing
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their job in the ferment to breakdown whatever it is that
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you're adding in. Are they then making those
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nutrients that were in that material available in the liquid
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that you are then in a plant available form that you're then
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putting onto your plants in a folio spray or a soil drainage
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or something like that, right? That's the that's the thought
13:44
behind it, yeah. Cool, does the, do the microbes
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change or are they all the same microbes that break it, break it
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down and or is it the, the plant material itself that has the
14:00
different properties? So then therefore, whether
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you're fermenting a comfrey versus an insect frass, your
14:05
comfrey might have a higher, you know, amount of say whatever a
14:11
nutrient it is versus your insect frass might have some
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other swing of, of nutrients and, or balance.
14:17
Is that the idea? Yeah, definitely, definitely.
14:20
So like the, the thought behind it is fruiting and flowering
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plants have what fruiting and flowering plants need.
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So that's phosphorus and potassium.
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Beetroot has boron, which is essential for for pollen tube
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development, potassium for for setting flowers and and you
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still need nitrogen in there for growth as well.
14:41
So yeah, absolutely. The, the thought behind the
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insect frass in particular, going back to what we were
14:48
saying about the top dressing thing is top dressing is great
14:52
in like a no till situation. But like anecdotally, if, if
14:57
that's all you're doing, you're missing out on 30% of plant
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available nutrition by not folio feeding a probiotic or some sort
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of compost tea or whatever it is you're making.
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The science behind it is, you know, top dressing insect press
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is great, but you've got to wait for the microbes to break that
15:18
down and then for that to be available in the soil profile
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where in the Fermenta we've already done that.
15:24
So it's immediately available. Now when you folia spray, you
15:29
know the anatomy of the leaf is on the bottom side is you've got
15:32
stomata, which are the mouth that that breathe.
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They take in and release oxygen and whatnot.
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They transport nutrients as well.
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So when you're folio feeding your probiotics, especially the
15:43
frass, it goes down through the stomata, down the floam layer
15:48
into the roots and proliferates that way through your soil, your
15:52
plants. Thinking for one of a better
15:55
term. It's it's like black soldier fly
15:57
larvae shit and like super worm shit.
16:01
Your plants hate those, you know what I mean?
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They're like, I'm being attacked, I need to do
16:08
something, you know, and that's by way of systemic acquired
16:12
resistance. Your plant thinks it's under
16:14
attack, So what it knows how to do is either release essential
16:18
oils or terpenes in an attempt to protect itself from attack.
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Now the good thing is when we're folic cockatoos want them to be
16:30
fed, when we're folia feeding the frass instead of waiting,
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you know, a week, 10 days, two weeks for to see the benefit.
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It happens within minutes when you folia feed.
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I've had reports of people using fermented frass in, you know,
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various different herbal or, you know, medicinal herbal flour
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applications and the terpenes and smells and essential oils
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increase within three days. Wow.
17:01
OK. So is there a, is there an is
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there a time when this plant defense mechanism that it's
17:12
going through is a bad thing? I wouldn't imagine so.
17:18
So it's building the resilience, right.
17:20
So it's kind of like putting the plant under a, a manageable or
17:23
necessary stress that gives it like a, in the same way that we
17:28
might be pruning certain things to build the resilience and to
17:33
promote stronger growth when it comes back, same as when we go
17:37
to the gym and we lift weights, we're trying to put ourselves
17:39
under the optimum amount of stress to be able to then grow
17:43
and get better. So that's, that's essentially
17:45
what's happening here. We're we're building the plant
17:47
resilience, especially with the frass like it's going, I don't
17:50
like this. Like I don't necessarily like
17:52
lifting heavy weights sometimes, but it's like, I don't like
17:55
this, but it's going to build me stronger and I'm going to be
17:58
more resilient to pests. So I'm going to be, you know, as
18:01
you say, it's going to be releasing some more of these
18:04
medicinal compounds where where necessary.
18:07
Is that the idea? Is that like so you don't think
18:09
that there's any necessary bad thing or like can you overdo it
18:13
with with this? Look, you probably could if you
18:17
were artificially growing things.
18:19
So if you were doing hard drive backs and you know, your, your
18:25
lighting intensity was too high, you know, and it, it was a
18:29
perfect recipe or a perfect storm for disaster, then you
18:33
probably wouldn't do it. You'd, you'd get your
18:35
environment right? You'd get your plant healthy.
18:38
And then, you know, you'd, you'd make your additions to, to sort
18:42
of crops, deer if you will. Yeah.
18:47
So you wouldn't sort of do it all at once and you wouldn't put
18:50
it under, you wouldn't put any sort of plant in any sort of
18:54
undue stress, like multiple in multiple different ways.
18:59
Do you know what I mean? So yeah, you'd get your plant,
19:03
your plants healthy. And then you'd apply the frass
19:05
just to improve the overall plant health vitality.
19:09
And it will, like the silica in the plants that it's grabbing
19:13
from the soil will, will make the the cell walls impenetrable
19:16
to, to any sort of pest. They'll go, Oh no, that plant's
19:20
too strong. I'll go for the weaker one over
19:22
here. You know if it's wilting or
19:23
already got pest damage on it. That's really interesting.
19:27
Well, I spoke yesterday about IPM and the the pest management
19:31
cycle. And I've been reading this book
19:33
called Tuning into Nature by Doctor Philip Callahan and it
19:37
talks about, it was written in the 70s and it talks about how
19:40
plants under stress, in this case growing in the wrong
19:45
conditions, growing out of season, not having the optimum
19:49
soil buffet for us to to have healthy plants.
19:53
They send off this infrared signal and it actually attracts
19:59
the insects and the pests and bugs to come in and take it out.
20:03
Because insects and, and, and bugs in most parts are the ones
20:07
that are nature's decomposers. In that instance, they're coming
20:10
in because it doesn't align with what's going on in nature and
20:13
it'll wipe it out. But if you've got a really
20:16
healthy plant that has high Brix levels, it's in a really
20:20
nutrient rich living soil that has everything it needs, it's
20:24
not giving off these same signals to the insects.
20:27
It's not going, hey, you know, I'm over here.
20:30
I need taken out. So there's been instances where
20:33
there's crops in one row that are untouched and crops in
20:37
another row that aren't nowhere near as healthy.
20:39
Same crop, same even, same treatment climate, all of that
20:44
kind of thing. But they're going for the ones
20:46
that are unhealthy, the ones that are signalling distress.
20:50
So it was really interesting to talk about that.
20:52
So you're right, if there's a plant that has everything it
20:55
needs, it's not going to get attacked and it's the the
20:58
attackers or decomposers are going to see it and go, Nah,
21:01
this one, this one's too resilient.
21:03
It's too strong and and won't go for it.
21:07
Nature always finds a way look you could have the the
21:11
healthiest flowers like I had some cosmos growing right here
21:17
and you know where we are. It sort of touches 7° at night
21:20
time at, at the time of this recording, you know, so it, the
21:25
soil temperatures dropping, you know what I mean?
21:28
And you know, it's holding on to moisture at night time.
21:31
And it, while the flowers are beautiful, you can see aphids
21:35
and whatnot underneath the flowers.
21:37
I'm like if you're if if bugs aren't attracted to your some of
21:43
your plants, then you know you're out of balance somewhere.
21:48
You need manageable populations of each thing so that you've got
21:52
something like for I, I use the example of aphids and ladybugs.
21:57
Ladybugs need to come in and eat the aphids.
21:59
And if you don't have any aphids, you're not going to have
22:01
very many ladybugs. You know what I mean?
22:03
Even though they have other food sources.
22:05
But yeah, tell me a little bit. To the green lace wing that
22:10
smashes far more aphids than ladybugs do.
22:13
They're just not as pretty. True, true.
22:15
That's such a good point. Yeah, yeah.
22:17
Massive, massive amounts more. Yeah, look out for those guys
22:21
and you can introduce those things in from like places like
22:24
bugs to bugs. They can.
22:25
Bugs to bugs for sure. Yeah, they're a great source of
22:29
beneficial bugs. Yeah, Yeah, that's wicked.
22:32
Tell me because you touched on the temperature change.
22:35
Now obviously like I'll give people a little bit of a back
22:38
story, but we were both once Redlands locals in in Southeast
22:44
Queensland. And for those that aren't
22:47
familiar with the Redlands, that's a coastal SE Queensland
22:51
area and can be subject to warmer temperatures.
22:55
And in our subtropical climate, we get some decent humidity.
23:00
Now you've moved out to Toowoomba up on top of the
23:03
ranges, and you know, you look nicely rugged up compared to me.
23:08
So tell me a little bit about your transition out there in
23:13
terms of your growing approaches and how the change in
23:17
temperature and humidity has affected your approach.
23:21
Great question, Geordie. And I'm still figuring it out.
23:25
So we've only been here sort of since since late December.
23:31
So while we've while we've been here sort of for nearly six
23:36
months, there's been a massive process before I could even get
23:39
into the garden. You know what I mean, with
23:41
everything that had to happen. So I'm still working all of that
23:44
out. So I do know we've have got some
23:48
stone fruits here. You know, the leaves are
23:52
dropping the the weather's chilling them off.
23:54
We're going to get some chilly hours.
23:56
So I do know we're going to get a whole lot of fruit in terms of
24:01
all of my outdoor sort of like foliage plants that that I love
24:06
feeding probiotics and I'm sort of really into growing
24:10
ornamental plants at the moment. I'm I'm loving it is a bit of a
24:14
challenge up here being a lot cooler.
24:17
I do have a greenhouse out the back that's sort of got the
24:20
overhead sprinklers, but it is it is getting a little bit too
24:25
cold at the moment. So I've had to bring them
24:26
indoors undercover with a little bit of supplemental lighting
24:30
here. I've got some monsters and
24:33
elephant ears and all sorts of stuff growing here.
24:35
But I do need to, I do need to throw a little humidifier out
24:40
here. But I don't want to be one of
24:41
those people that have a humidifier growing outdoor
24:47
plants, you know what I mean? But yeah, I don't know.
24:50
It's it's just a challenge that I'll have to have to work it out
24:54
as we go. Yeah, that's it.
24:56
I think that's really relatable too for everybody that has
24:59
changed climates or areas because you one way of doing
25:04
things even like in such, you know, Toowoomba is a what, 2
25:09
hour, hour and a half drive 2. 22 hours.
25:13
Something about around 2 hours. And like, yeah, that's a, a
25:16
decent distance in some, some cases, but it's almost a totally
25:20
different climate because as you say, you're going to hit, yeah,
25:24
you're going to hit negative degrees in the winter.
25:27
And we weren't over here and we're two hours, you know, out
25:31
towards the coast. So that's a really big shift to
25:35
have to, to consider. You mentioned to me earlier
25:40
nettles singing nettles. Is that something you were
25:44
growing out in the Redlands in the subtropics?
25:47
Because I've not heard of a huge amount of people that have had
25:50
success with nettles themselves. Like you see them in like
25:54
originally my family's from the UK, so we have nettles just
25:58
bloody everywhere, you know, over there.
26:00
And yeah. And it's something that's
26:02
prevalent. They use stinging nettle teas
26:04
and and ferments. So how do you go with the
26:07
nettles? And do you have any kind of
26:11
specific growing tips for for nettles?
26:15
Nettles have what nettles need, Geordie.
26:18
Yeah. Yeah, so like no, I had 0 issue
26:23
growing them in the Redlands 0. So I'll I'll send you some cuts.
26:29
Yeah, it's OK. I'll send you some cuts there
26:32
and just get them planted. You'll you'll smash it.
26:36
No, no, no issues. I mean, it's a, you know, it's
26:40
a, it's a prolific spreader. It it's just shoots pops up
26:47
everywhere. So out here it does really well
26:51
in the Redlands, it does really well.
26:54
Just keep your your soil moist and you'll be right.
26:57
I think that's probably the key then, because we do tend to have
27:01
these kind of dryer spells and, and people will have this soil
27:06
dry out quite quickly in the, in the hot summer heat.
27:09
So maybe that's part of the issue.
27:11
So if you've got nice balance in your soil, you've got mulch on
27:14
there, moisture retention, you're gonna not have as many
27:16
problems. I find that a bit with with the
27:19
comfrey as well. If that tends to dry out, then
27:23
you see a bit of problem starting to creep in.
27:27
Tell me about the alfalfa and your methods for growing that.
27:34
That seems to be relatively easy to grow, right and fairly
27:38
prolific. And you spoke a little bit
27:41
about, sorry for all the multiple part questions.
27:43
You spoke a bit about like the optimum time to be chopping
27:48
these plants because I know that when you've got the seed and the
27:53
first part of germination, that's why sprouted seed teas
27:57
and things like this do so well is because they're full of all
28:01
of that potential and the, the energy that's in there to
28:05
require to be building the plant.
28:06
Everything it needs is in that first seed.
28:09
So at what point are you chopping maybe say alfalfa
28:13
because we're, we're talking about it.
28:15
At what point are you thinking like, OK, this is the optimum
28:19
amount to take because versus amount of plant material versus
28:23
amount of nutrients? Look, it, it, it depends.
28:27
It's all going to work, right? It's just the the top 4 inches
28:33
of the apical growth of any plant is where all of the growth
28:36
hormones and enzymes are stored overnight.
28:39
When your plants are respiring, you know all of that energy,
28:42
energy is stored in that top 4 inches.
28:45
When the sun rises, the dew hits the VPDS good man, it's bang
28:50
off. So the thought is before that
28:54
happens, before that plant wants to explode with growth for the
28:58
day. You come in and you and you get
29:00
it all down. So yet either with KNF or
29:04
fermented plant extracts, the thought is the same.
29:07
The top 4 inches is where all of the goodness is.
29:11
But with alpha loosen, we call it here in Australia for, for
29:17
those playing at home, it, it's a legume plant, right?
29:23
Then like all legumes, it will capture atmospheric nitrogen N1
29:28
store it in nodules on its root system, which is N 3.
29:34
When you chop the drop as above, so below it dies off, it
29:37
releases plant available nitrogen back into the soil.
29:41
So what we're doing here is we're, we're, we're, we're
29:47
taking the top 4 inches of the growth.
29:48
We're fermenting that. I'm, I'm working on a on a new
29:52
release of an FPGA blend that I'm not going to go too much
29:57
into detail, but I'm going to, we're going to incorporate the
30:01
N3 root nodules out of the soil into that as well.
30:07
So yeah, keep your eyes peeled. It's going to be a it's going to
30:10
be a multi plant FPGA so that you nettle your comfrey out,
30:16
your loosen and some N3. What do you just just for
30:21
curiosity, FPGA stands for. Fermented plant juice.
30:25
It's a It's a Korean natural farming prep.
30:29
It's essentially using osmotic pressure to draw out the
30:33
nutrients of your plant material or fruit.
30:35
Whatever you're fermenting pulls it out so rapidly that the cells
30:39
explode and you're left with a liquid solution, which is Mickey
30:44
Mouse. Mickey Mouse, love it.
30:46
That's cool. I know that you've taken a lot
30:47
of inspiration from the KNF and the Jadam styles as well.
30:53
Like they've been pretty pioneer, pretty big pioneers of
30:58
this type of technology, right? And it's ultimately it's so
31:02
simple, like it's really simple. You're just letting nature do
31:05
the work for you to to create these processes.
31:08
You're just making the best environment for them so that
31:11
they can go and do their thing. Just being a good custodian.
31:14
Yeah, that's it. That's exactly right.
31:17
So is that something that you like?
31:22
Yes, take a lot of inspiration from and then use their
31:25
techniques and you sort of adapt them based on where you are and
31:30
what you can grow. Because for like we have a few
31:34
listeners that are in the US, we've got a few listeners over
31:38
in Europe, which is cool, but they might not have the same
31:42
growing conditions or they might grow different plants.
31:46
So when you're thinking about choices of plant material and
31:51
things like this, are you going off specifically proven recipes
31:58
worldwide like KNF, Jadam, things like this?
32:01
Or would you more come from it from a perspective like you said
32:06
before, about if you want to be developing flowers and fruits on
32:10
your plant, have flowering and fruiting material that goes into
32:14
your ferments? Yeah, exactly.
32:18
Like grow, like start with what you can grow.
32:22
Do you know what I mean? Like as long as it's not toxic
32:26
and it's not poisonous in any sort of aspect or scenario,
32:32
start with what you've got. Like you can ferment grass
32:34
clippings, you know what I mean? If you're, if you've got nothing
32:38
around, start with that. Start building compost.
32:41
You know what? It's, it's a holistic way of, of
32:45
doing it, but I think you'll feel better about it and a more
32:49
of a sense of accomplishment if you're growing what you're
32:53
fermenting as well. True.
32:55
And yeah, actually, like flowers have what flowers need fruit.
32:59
Fruit has all of the potassium and the phosphorus that you need
33:02
to grow flowers and more stone fruits as well.
33:07
And that comes from, in my mind, the fact that in nature, for
33:11
example, if you had a fruit tree, it would drop all its
33:14
fruit onto the ground and then that would therefore be worked
33:17
into the ground and then feeding the tree.
33:20
And it's creates this perfect cycle of needing exactly what it
33:23
needs from itself, which. Is not rocket kinds.
33:27
And I tell you what if you go to anywhere that sort of got like a
33:32
an undisturbed sort of like a mango tree somewhere, you know
33:37
the possums get in and they chew down the fruit, then it rots.
33:41
If you do dig in that soil, it will be some of the most carbon
33:45
rich black humus filled soil that you would ever hope to try
33:51
and find or or make. And all you've got to do is
33:55
think, well, that why is that like that?
33:58
Oh, well, it's carbon based, you know, it's all carbon that's
34:01
rotting into into the soil. Well, let's replicate that here
34:06
by composting. You know, we'll come.
34:08
And it just gets people thinking.
34:10
That's such a good point. I'm going to go and I know where
34:13
a few mango trees are. I'm going to go suss them out
34:16
and steal. Maybe steal a bit.
34:18
Yeah, definitely have a look and you'll you'll be bringing in in
34:21
like indigenous microorganisms from from that area or into your
34:24
garden, which is only going to be a good thing.
34:26
Yeah, that's really, that's really true.
34:30
Sorry for jumping around a little bit, but I want to go
34:32
back to the you mentioned, if we're not using FP or any kind
34:41
of ferment, how are we missing out on 30% of soil nutrition
34:47
because? Anecdotal, right?
34:51
Yeah, it hasn't been scientifically proven that you
34:55
are that plants can absorb 30% of their nutrients through folia
35:01
feeding. Right.
35:03
OK. So it's, it's through the Folia
35:05
feed that they are getting a 30% boost for example, roughly with
35:11
that, OK. Because as you say, with the
35:15
locked out phosphorus in the ground, like if you don't have
35:20
all of the right microorganisms and bacteria and microbes in the
35:25
soil, you're not going to have access to the full nutrition
35:30
profile that the plant needs, right?
35:34
So how all you would have would be dirt and it would just be an
35:38
anchor system for the roots? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
35:41
Because I've found that using well, specifically your
35:44
products, I guess initially because that's, that's something
35:48
that I found worked really, really well.
35:49
It's just like not only folio feeding, but kind of just
35:53
drenching the soil like putting some in with some of my watering
35:57
and and putting it through the soil.
36:01
It seemed to be a lot quicker at developing that living soil kind
36:07
of approach where you can kind of pull the soil apart and you
36:11
see all of these moving things and it's got this beautiful
36:14
consistency to it. And I noticed the mulch layer,
36:18
whether it's my chop and drop, it's my the number one blend
36:21
with all the organic commandments, they're being
36:23
worked into the soil a lot quicker than if you were just
36:27
leaving it without using these ferments and things.
36:31
So that's, that's essentially what we're doing, isn't it?
36:33
We're increasing the population in the soil to allow that mulch
36:37
layer to start going the soil biology to keep up with the
36:40
plants and just to to fire up that system completely.
36:45
Yeah, definitely. When when you're adding, like
36:48
when you're soil drenching in particular alfalfa, just by
36:52
default it's 30,000 PPM saponins.
36:56
So people spend all this money on Yucca and sapon and this and
37:00
sapon and that. Just grow it, loosen and ferment
37:04
it. Like when you spray that on, you
37:06
can see it foaming and all that is keeping those microbes in
37:11
that soil profile for longer so they can breed, you know, and
37:16
generate more microbes that are going to improve the tilt of
37:21
your soil. Add in a mulch layer, you know,
37:26
sorry, take that away and you've got UV from the sun that's just
37:30
belting on that, you know, top 6 inches of soil and your microbes
37:34
are going fuck that down here. That's how you end up with the
37:39
dry layer of soil plus the evaporation.
37:43
Get some mulch on there, hit it with firm ants and just watch
37:46
your soil profile. Improve the tilt of your soil,
37:50
the the humic content of your soil.
37:53
It'll get darker, like your number one blend, you know what
37:57
I mean? Add that in top dress that heat
38:00
it with some ferments and and let's liberate the phosphates
38:04
out of there and get it into the soil and into our plants and
38:07
into our fruit. That's wicked, man.
38:09
I really like that. And talking about the natural
38:11
saponins, as you say, like just to have this kind of soapiness,
38:17
right, that comes into it. I used to use things like soap
38:22
nuts. I just kind of, you know, Chuck
38:25
them in and shake it up a little bit, get a little bit of a soap
38:29
nut in there, get some soapiness to it.
38:31
And that, like as you said, it kind of helps it stick right
38:35
into the soil and, and maintain a little bit of the moisture
38:39
without it being completely drained straight through and
38:42
ripped out. Is that the idea?
38:44
Yeah, it just breaks the water tension and like you can do you
38:47
can achieve the same results with, pardon me, a like a drop
38:53
of dishwasher soap if you've got nothing else or Castile soap.
38:59
Castile soap. Yeah, Yeah, exactly.
39:01
Look, shout out Doctor Bronner, the the peppermint Castile soap
39:05
is. That's that's exactly the one
39:07
that I use the peppermint. Castile, Yeah, that's the one,
39:12
yeah, look it the peppermint one especially, it's it's brilliant.
39:17
And look in replacement of of the alfalfa ferment if or if
39:21
you're not growing it or fermenting it.
39:24
Everyone uses soap, so make a good choice and get a good
39:28
quality Castile. And you know, it's all derived
39:30
from plants. So it's a it's, it's brilliant
39:34
pasta. Peppermint essential oil helps
39:36
to tear bugs as well. Right, you're taking this right
39:39
out of my mouth. The the peppermint one also
39:44
like, sorry, the soap in general, it helps it kind of
39:49
stick to the leaves a little bit too, right?
39:50
Is that the idea? So what's the benefit of, I
39:56
mean, you touched on this a little bit before, but the
39:58
benefit of it sticking to the leaf is it gives it longer time
40:02
for that plant to absorb it through the leaf and send it
40:05
down. Is that the idea?
40:07
Yeah, I mean, yes, when we're talking about a folia feed, Yep,
40:11
definitely. When we're talking about trying
40:13
to suffocate soft bodied insects, that comes in handy as
40:17
well. You know what I mean?
40:18
So the more time that they're covered, the more likelihood you
40:21
are of suffocating them and getting rid of them.
40:23
For example, I had I had some mealy bugs on a fiddle leaf that
40:29
I've got quick hit of Doctor Bronner, you know, at the
40:34
correct dilution, not straight soap, but and overnight gone,
40:40
not gone, but, you know, dead, dead and just stuck to the leaf.
40:44
Yeah, yeah, powerful stuff. It's great, isn't it?
40:47
And I think with the to Folia sprays, for example, is there a
40:58
optimum time to be spraying these?
41:02
I think I might know the answer to this, but but why are we
41:05
doing that at an optimum time and what's the benefit?
41:09
Look there. Yes and no.
41:12
With organics, especially Fpas, they are acidic, but we're
41:17
diluting them to to neutral anyway.
41:21
So no there there really isn't a a perfect time to be doing it.
41:25
Obviously in the morning when your plant plants respiring,
41:29
they will respond better to a folio fade.
41:32
Would definitely avoid spraying any sort of eco name oil, white
41:37
oil, horticultural oil, anything like that in the middle of the
41:40
day. I'd sort of be doing that in the
41:42
afternoon. So it's got overnight to to
41:45
absorb, but but yeah, no with with Fermans, man, you're,
41:49
you're pretty well good to go. That's cool because as you say,
41:52
like I do think about it from that maybe pest prevention
41:58
mindset where we don't want to be spraying any kind of oil
42:02
that's going to burn the leaf material in that hot sun.
42:08
But I my first thought was that, OK, if the plants in the morning
42:13
are ready to fire and they're engaging all of those processes
42:17
to respire and, and, you know, shoot up with growth, that might
42:23
be the best time to be putting those on this the folio feeds so
42:27
that then they can really utilize that quickly.
42:30
But if it's sitting, say if you but if you do it at any time,
42:34
it's still going to use it the next day or, or something.
42:36
The microbes aren't going to die off or anything, are they?
42:39
Like no. No, no, no, especially if
42:42
you're, I just want to touch on if you're spraying during the
42:46
day or in the morning, say it's all well and good to be spraying
42:50
your, your oil. You can your name oil or your
42:53
horticultural oil. But if one of your parameters is
42:57
out, say you've got a really hot and dry day forecast, then
43:03
you're adding another element that can go wrong.
43:07
So, you know, I'd be sort of inclined to do it at night time
43:12
just to sort of safeguard, you know, any sort of potential
43:16
compound effects from a shit storm that could happen.
43:19
So, you know, hot, hot climate, no humidity, spraying oil on
43:25
your plants in the mid in the morning to last all day.
43:28
It could have a more negative effect and invite pests in
43:32
rather than preventing them. So it's just sort of being
43:36
mindful of what you're spraying when and sort of eliminating
43:39
unnecessary risks, yeah. That's a really good point
43:44
because yeah, you don't want to add an extra layer of stress to
43:46
something that's already stressed out from environmental
43:49
conditions. So yeah.
43:52
Or pest. So maybe, yeah, night time
43:53
sprays anyways, probably if you just aim for that, then you're
43:56
going to be all good for your pest stuff.
43:58
Especially with your name, like any sort of oil, I'd be doing
44:01
it, you know, as close to night time as possible, late
44:04
afternoon. Like frass is sort of your,
44:08
your, your maintenance sort of solution.
44:10
It's going to activate your systemic acquired resistance.
44:12
So there's no sort of real, real issue with that unless you're
44:16
spraying at a higher dilution and and your plants are
44:19
sensitive to sort of a more acidic solution.
44:22
Yeah, cool. Let's talk about the frass a
44:25
little bit. Now you have this incredibly
44:30
stinky frass solution, which is, you know, obviously when they
44:36
say that good stink goes in, then you're going to get good
44:40
flavour, for example, coming out.
44:44
Tell me about the the frass and why that can be really useful
44:51
aside from that sort of plant defence things, because we have
44:56
the frass that gets broken down naturally from insects dying in
45:00
the soil. That's essentially what we're
45:02
trying to mimic here, right? And what insects are you using?
45:06
And how would we acquire insects ourselves to be able to make one
45:11
if we wanted to make one at home?
45:14
You could make a black soldier fly lava bin like an echo pod
45:21
type thing. They it's brilliant if you've
45:23
got chooks. So you, you set it up, fill it
45:26
with coffee and they sort of eat all the coffee.
45:28
And once that once they're grown, they'll climb up and
45:30
they'll harvest themselves. So you can set it up so they
45:33
harvest themselves straight into your chook pen once they've
45:37
finished eating all of that food and turned all of that substrate
45:40
into frass. You can take that and ferment it
45:43
or top dress it. Do what you like.
45:45
Or you can approach a company like southern no till I know
45:49
they make a a a frass or bardy frass or lavalicious on the
45:55
north side of Brizzy. They're a great small business
45:58
that are incorporating diverting waste streams into getting
46:04
broken down organically. So so they're another great
46:07
company. And if you're after worm
46:10
castings in the loop is a great deal.
46:12
Mitch, shout out Mitch. He's an awesome bloke and a a
46:16
massive advocate for organic and syntropic production or
46:20
cultivation. So yeah, there's a lot of great
46:23
people out there that you can you can look to and support or
46:26
do it yourself. Yeah.
46:28
And what are you using primarily for your ferment?
46:32
What insects are you using, Black soldier?
46:35
Black soldier fly frass. Yeah, and this, this so
46:39
prevalent and easy to to do here.
46:42
And I've seen mealworm frass advertised a fair bit as well,
46:47
like people trying to, you know, get rid of that and repurpose it
46:50
out. So there's a whole bunch of
46:52
benefits to using anything like that, that you can repurpose
46:55
waste streams, as you say, and the the worm castings like, you
47:02
know, black gold essentially really isn't it these and we see
47:09
often, I know, like we, this is relatively common knowledge, I
47:13
guess, but I'd like to touch on it again.
47:16
When we see worms in our soil, most of the time they're
47:19
earthworms, right? They're coming up in they're not
47:22
necessarily our composting worms, which tend to give us a
47:26
higher quality press, right? And if you're feeding them the
47:31
right ingredients, like for instance, I feed them the number
47:36
one blend my worm so that they are breaking down this already
47:40
and it's in that nutrient rich casting that I can then use make
47:45
a tea out of blah, blah, blah. Are you using worms and like
47:52
which? Sorry, how?
47:56
How do I phrase this? Which like which worms are we
47:58
looking out for in terms of ones to use red wigglers?
48:01
Things like this for an example. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
48:05
So while I'm I've I've got a continuous flow through worm bin
48:12
and I use red wigglers, African night crawlers and there's AI
48:19
think there's a blue, there's a blue type as well.
48:23
I'm not too sure, but as much food as I could load into it.
48:29
We're out here on the Darling Downs, you know, there's a lot
48:31
of agriculture around, a lot of seed, which means there's a lot
48:34
of mice. So they've, they've gotten into
48:38
where I harvest, they've chewed through about that much
48:42
cardboard and they're nesting in my worm bin.
48:46
So like the, the, the type that you're after for composting is
48:51
definitely the red wigglers that they stay in the top 6 inches of
48:54
your top soil. Look, if you could incorporate a
48:57
handful of that into your in into your top dresses, into your
49:02
garden beds, you'd be doing yourself a great a great
49:05
service. This is what I was getting at
49:07
too. Yeah, yeah.
49:08
Yeah, yeah, so but you they do get out competed with all of
49:11
those Asian jumping worms. Have you seen those they they
49:16
get to this big and they go mental when you.
49:20
Touch them, they're like, yeah. Bounce around like a 2 Bob
49:23
watch. Yeah, I've seen those for sure.
49:27
They're really interesting characters.
49:29
They but they but they can also be beneficial right then.
49:31
But I mean, as far as like worms go, we'd love to have some of
49:35
those, those red wigglers. I find obviously if you're
49:39
growing in the ground, a lot of this is going to naturally
49:41
occur. If you're using your own
49:45
harvested worm castings and putting them on, there might be
49:48
a few eggs and things in there that you're going to then hatch
49:51
and, and do that sort of thing. So that's really wicked.
49:54
But primarily focusing on container gardening and growing
50:00
in pots. Like I try and advocate a lot
50:03
for small scale gardening because a lot of us are on
50:07
smaller properties and as the cost of living goes up, more of
50:10
us having to downsize and growing on a balcony or
50:13
something like this. And I'm trying to, I know you're
50:18
all over this, but like trying to encourage the living soil
50:21
system on a small scale in a container or something like
50:25
that. Now I've seen the benefits of
50:29
using worms and using, I guess cover crops and living mulches
50:36
and then the the ferments as well on these small scales in in
50:41
pots and things like that. And as the container size gets
50:44
smaller, the more, more tending you have to do to that soil.
50:50
Can you talk to me a little bit about small scale and how the
50:57
difference you've seen between, say, growing in a small
51:00
container versus growing in the ground?
51:02
And how much work you have to put in to each one?
51:07
And how much benefit you can get out of using a ferment on a
51:10
smaller scale because of what we were talking about earlier about
51:14
the outpacing of the biology and that kind of thing.
51:17
Yeah, for sure. It's look the I'd encourage
51:21
anyone to get into gardening however you can.
51:25
Now, whether you've got 500 acres out here in a paddock or
51:30
you've you, you've got a three by three space to to grow as
51:35
much stuff of or produce as you can.
51:38
I'm a a massive believer in organics and the the holistic
51:45
way of encouraging people to make their own soil.
51:48
Or you know, at at the very least go and buy some good
51:52
quality living soil from either high-powered organics.
51:57
Easy as organics, organic gardening solutions.
52:01
They all make great soils. Now that you, you, you keep
52:06
feeding your, your soil as your plants are growing, right?
52:10
You're, you're increasing the bricks levels of your whatever
52:14
you're growing because you're adding organic material in
52:17
whether it's compost, you know, fruit scraps or you know,
52:21
ferments. FPGA is a a sugar based, so you
52:25
know you're going to have richer fruit or flowers or whatever
52:30
you're growing in terms of trying to to to keep it matched,
52:37
I'd sort of outpacing is what you were saying you want to be
52:41
growing. If you're not growing in the
52:43
ground, you want to be growing in the in as big a container as
52:47
you can sort of afford. Now instead of trying to grow
52:52
something that's outpacing that soil battery, grow what you can,
52:57
you know what I mean? Like grow an annual herb or grow
53:01
some perennials or whatever. You can grow something that's
53:05
going to give you a bit of satisfaction, whether it's a
53:08
sunflower or or something. Sorry bro I just I'm lost now.
53:14
No, that's exactly what I was I was hoping for.
53:17
It's just a little bit of, you know, just trying to generate
53:20
support for those that are worried about the fact that
53:25
they're thinking I've only got a balcony or I've only got a
53:28
couple of containers or pots that I can even manage during
53:31
their busy weeks and things like this.
53:33
That's all you need. That's all you need.
53:35
Like you don't need massive amounts of acres.
53:39
Use what you've got. Use a good quality organic
53:42
living soil. Use something like the number
53:45
one blend. Incorporate worm castings in it
53:49
that you get, you know, whenever you're adding dry stuff, try and
53:52
add something that's wet. That's the way I like to look at
53:56
it. So if I'm adding a #1 blend, I'm
53:58
adding two or three times the amount of worm castings.
54:02
So you know, I'm, I'm coating all of the blend in biology.
54:06
So I'm initiating that breakdown on top dressing that I'm hitting
54:10
that with ferments, which is going to accelerate that even
54:12
more. You're going to watch your plant
54:15
grow and you're going to watch the gap between the top of your
54:18
mulch and the top of your pot get bigger as your meter router
54:23
smashing all of your top dress and whatnot, your, your pots
54:26
shrinking. So you've got to keep adding
54:28
more. Whereas if you'd start with, you
54:30
know, a bigger sort of container size where you won't need to do
54:33
that quite as much and you'll have a bigger soil battery.
54:37
But grow what what you can, grow what you can in in whatever
54:41
space you can, and you'll feel a sense of fulfilment, I guarantee
54:46
it. So give me a couple of places
54:49
where people can start to go and reach out to to some companies
54:53
and things, especially if they're in the local area.
54:55
Where can we go and start this whole living soil journey?
54:59
Google, YouTube, Google or YouTube the Jeremy or the
55:04
Builder Soil 10 by 10 series that'll really get your mind
55:08
working into living soils. There's producers here locally,
55:14
HBOOGS. Easy as organics, great living
55:18
soil companies are yourself. You make a really good dry, dry
55:22
mineral amendment blend. Thank you very much.
55:24
I want to give a quick shout out to Recky Bowls Art Gallery down
55:28
in Victoria. Another shout out goes to Timmy
55:32
from the Blazing Trail who is importing all these little seed
55:37
sprout starters. Now, A lot of people have
55:41
difficulty germinating seeds, especially if you're at
55:44
somewhere like here in a cool climate.
55:47
I think these things keep them moist, humid and warm.
55:50
So yeah, for for those struggling to germinate, seeds
55:54
hit up the blazing trail. That's cool, man.
55:56
I really like that and the, as we spoke about before, the
55:59
genetic potential in those seeds and having a sprouted seed tea.
56:02
I've used, you know, I used the malted barley in the mix, but
56:06
also things like I might even just use wheat grass seeds or
56:10
something and just sprout them so the little tail comes out,
56:14
blitz them up at them into some water and then straight in as a,
56:17
as a feed as well. They can give you some huge
56:20
benefits. Another big shout out goes to a
56:23
mate over in Pennsylvania, Keith.
56:26
He's on Instagram as leg days. He does a lot of seed sprouted
56:31
teas. He's a a massive fan of it.
56:34
Lot of lot of enzymes, lot of growth hormones, lot of
56:37
saponins, depending on the seeds that you're growing.
56:40
I know. What's that stuff?
56:43
Chia seeds is a, a massive, it nearly turns to Jelly, you know
56:48
what I mean? So you're blending that stuff
56:50
up. Alfalfa, aloe, you know, all
56:54
that stuff. Get into it, do some research.
56:58
Yeah. Start gardening and you'll
57:00
you'll feel good. And there we have it, everybody,
57:18
an absolutely fascinating conversation.
57:21
And I did mention to Cam after the conversation that I'd love
57:25
to have him back on to dive even further into soil biology and
57:31
nutrition science a little bit more because we only scratch the
57:35
surface of Cams knowledge on all of these wonderful topics.
57:39
And I'm sure that you'll be interested to know exactly
57:43
what's going on in the soil so that you then can work out how
57:47
do I best replicate the organic systems that we see in nature
57:52
and what might be missing in my system to create the most
57:55
thriving, healthy, living soil that we can.
57:59
Now, Cam mentioned a fair few legends in the game, not only
58:04
from our own homeland here in Australia, but worldwide too.
58:09
So please go and check out a fair few of those people.
58:13
I will do my best to link as many of those links as I can in
58:16
the description in the show notes.
58:18
So if you don't find those links down there, either I've missed
58:22
it or you can just go and search them up yourself.
58:25
I really highly recommend that. First and foremost though,
58:28
please check out Cam on Instagram at Organic Ferments.
58:32
I'll have those links down in the description below and also
58:35
check out his wonderful products.
58:38
If you don't have the space or the ability or the time to be
58:41
doing some of these ferments, even though they can be easy and
58:44
you can learn how to do it, Cam is the guy to go to.
58:47
I've had some wonderful success with using his products on the
58:52
garden. You'll be able to see those in
58:54
the YouTube series, The Chili Side by side.
58:58
I've had some wonderful experience with them.
59:00
I've seen some great results in my garden and I just highly
59:04
encourage you to go and check it out, buy a bottle of the ferment
59:07
and get started on that journey yourself to organic thriving
59:11
living soil. So to round it out, a couple of
59:15
things from me. As you know, if you found some
59:17
value in this podcast, it is super appreciated.
59:21
If you could go and leave this a review on Spotify, Apple,
59:24
wherever you're listening to this podcast, give it a review,
59:27
give it an honest review. Drop some comments in there
59:30
because that really helps to stimulate the algorithm to share
59:34
this to more people so that we can give this knowledge to more
59:36
gardeners and help out more people, be more self-sufficient.
59:41
Lastly, the organic growers guides, we've got two, OK, the
59:46
first one is free. Go and check that out.
59:48
Organic Growers guide on my website.
59:50
The link is down in the description.
59:52
It's free. You can get started in organic
59:54
growing practices now. I have also released a small,
1:00:00
sorry, an intermediate growers guide for a small fee, and this
1:00:04
one goes far more in depth. This is nearly 20 pages long and
1:00:08
it's three times the length of the beginner 1.
1:00:10
So if you're feeling like you've got your head around the first
1:00:14
parts of beginner organic growing, then this might be the
1:00:18
level up that you need just to dive a little bit more into some
1:00:21
techniques that can really help you level up.
1:00:24
So that's it from me. Thank you again very much for
1:00:27
watching and listening. Really appreciate your support
1:00:30
and I'm beyond excited to jump into the next episode with you
1:00:33
next week. So take care, enjoy your
1:00:35
gardens, and I will see you again on the next episode.
1:00:38
Take care.