Latest / The Curve / Navigating Self-Worth & Financial Risk as a Female Founder, with Sonia Kaurah.

Transcript

Navigating Self-Worth & Financial Risk as a Female Founder, with Sonia Kaurah. · The Curve

0:00
I didn't grow up with an idea of how to deal with money.
0:05
When there's no generational wealth, it's very different.
0:07
And it was very much spending what you don't have.
0:10
Going out, experiences, traveling.
0:12
I don't think I would take back those experiences,
0:15
but potentially have 100K in my bank account now.
0:17
A lot of the Asian kind of cultures,
0:19
you just need to be pretty and meet someone that's rich.
0:22
I never heard about investing.
0:24
I never heard about stocks.
0:26
Yeah, I think we look at investors
0:27
as like the smartest in the world.
0:29
It's still going to invest in 20 companies, I feel.
0:31
What is the market?
0:32
What is your product?
0:33
So much is on the founding team.
0:35
Because even if they've built a product,
0:37
and everyone's like, yeah, this is going to be great.
0:38
The market's going to love it.
0:39
And then the market doesn't love it.
0:41
If you have a really great team, they will pivot.
0:43
So I then just end up being friends
0:45
with a lot of the investors.
0:46
When I put them in touch, I would actually ask the investor,
0:49
hey, can I just sit in the room with you?
0:50
Just I'll be a fly on the wall.
0:52
She's clever.
0:53
And just learn, like, what questions are they asking?
0:55
I was taking time out during the day
0:57
to sit into these rooms.
0:58
And I would go to events every single night,
1:00
meet people, network.
1:02
And I basically didn't have any night off
1:04
for a very long time.
1:05
It was a lot for a lot of years,
1:06
but it absolutely paid off.
1:12
So our journey with the curve has been quite unexpected,
1:16
I would say.
1:17
We've started off like really just doing events.
1:20
Then we did podcasts, all of a sudden we were a business
1:22
and we've had to learn quickly what the hell we're doing.
1:27
And along the way, we've met some incredible people,
1:30
like they've become mentors.
1:32
They've been advisors for us.
1:33
They've some of them have invested in the curve.
1:36
So we got an email a couple of months ago
1:39
from one of these people and his name's Michael Watkins.
1:42
He runs a financial tech platform
1:44
that he's building out of.
1:46
I want to say Abu Dhabi, but it may be Dubai.
1:49
Anyway, he was on a panel with this incredible woman
1:52
that he was like, you've got to meet Sonia.
1:54
She's building this amazing business called Tala Thrive.
1:57
She'd connect.
1:58
Well, amazing, amazing.
1:59
So anyway, Sonia has been one of those people
2:02
who've been having coffees with and like just speaking
2:05
about business and her experience building a tech platform.
2:08
And this was a conversation about culture
2:12
and how culture influences the way that we spend,
2:15
save, invest about entrepreneurship
2:19
and how going all in is kind of the only way to do it.
2:23
She's currently not taking a salary.
2:26
She is building an amazing tech platform.
2:29
But actually what I found the most inspiring
2:31
about this conversation was just how open she was
2:35
about the influences of how she grew up
2:39
and how she saw the world and how she spent money.
2:43
And actually, unfortunately, how as women
2:45
like the messages that were fed and how much they hold us back
2:49
can like ripple into our teenage and adult life.
2:53
And yeah, this conversation was one
2:55
that we were originally going to gatekeep
2:56
and kind of put in the members like the Investing Club.
3:00
But it was too good.
3:01
And we decided that everyone needs to listen.
3:03
So we hope that you enjoy it.
3:06
And this is a conversation we have with Sonia
3:08
and if anyone wants to check out her amazing platform,
3:10
it's Tala Thrive and right now it is available
3:13
in the UK and in Australia.
3:15
Also, if you do want to learn more about the Investing Club
3:17
and all of the amazing content
3:19
that's in there and not put on the podcast,
3:21
we will put the details in the podcast show note.
3:24
So Sonia and I were introduced through, kind of like a mutual friend.
3:32
Someone we both met through business circles, running a startup.
3:36
It's very, it's a different kind of stress
3:38
than working and feeling stressed within your job in a company.
3:43
And I think he was like, OK, you too.
3:46
You get it.
3:47
But the reason I wanted to get you in today,
3:49
I just think that your story and your experience,
3:52
both professionally and personally, is so interesting.
3:57
And I'd love to just start with a real context
4:00
as to like who are you in terms of before I met you.
4:04
So I am from Melbourne, born and raised in Australia,
4:07
but my parents are from Malaysia and we have some Indian heritage.
4:10
Both born and raised in Malaysia.
4:12
My mom's from Kuala Lumpur and my dad's from like a tiny tap.
4:15
Yeah, they immigrated there and my dad was always kind of an entrepreneur
4:19
so he would do different businesses.
4:21
Definitely the different cultural background,
4:23
especially kind of, you know, 34 years ago in Australia.
4:27
It was very different, I guess, to a lot of my friends
4:29
and the way they grew up.
4:30
And then we also grew up in Shanghai for four years.
4:33
The kid.
4:34
Yeah, I don't know if I taught you that.
4:35
No, yeah.
4:37
So that also obviously affected a lot of the way that I think I am today as well,
4:42
to be honest, because I think I was like a really shy kid.
4:46
And like, no one believes that now,
4:47
because I think I'm quite extroverted.
4:49
I often hear that a lot from people who, when they were younger at school,
4:54
up to like maybe 16, 18, were quite in their shell
4:58
and like, as they grow up really like,
5:01
and it's such a genuine confidence too.
5:03
It's not like the fake revada.
5:05
It's quite interesting.
5:06
It's interesting you say that because I think I've,
5:08
I've still and have had for a very long time,
5:11
pretty bad self-esteem, to be honest.
5:13
Which, so, I know it's crazy.
5:15
It just blows my mind because I look at you
5:18
and I just think, I'm like emmon or of,
5:22
yeah, how you present in the world and not just,
5:24
I don't mean like physically, I think that,
5:26
I was having this moment last night,
5:28
just like all these stupid beauty ads
5:30
being thrown at me on Instagram.
5:31
And like, I was just like, I'm so sick being told
5:35
that I'm not enough that I need to change.
5:37
I'm just like, go away and no wonder there's such a like self-esteem issue
5:42
when we're constantly being told to change things about ourselves.
5:46
Yeah, exactly, really.
5:47
But I think also in like a lot of the Asian kind of cultures,
5:50
people around you are just very direct.
5:53
You'll be kind of force-fed and be like,
5:54
you have to eat this and there's always so much food around.
5:56
But then you'll also be like, body-shamed at the same time.
5:59
And it's such like a, how does this work?
6:02
Because you're telling me to eat constantly
6:05
or I'm not eating enough and then you're kind of saying that I'm fat
6:08
and like, you know, so it's like, I grew up being told
6:10
that I should put makeup on, I was fat.
6:12
I like, you know, didn't look good, like,
6:15
like I've never been over 52 kilos.
6:17
Like, logically, I know I've never been overweight.
6:20
But when you're told that so much growing up,
6:22
can I just also say she's quite a little petite person.
6:25
She's not like seven-foot-end.
6:27
No, exactly, no, no.
6:28
People are less than you might be like,
6:29
oh my goodness.
6:30
No, no, no, no, no, I'm like, just for three days.
6:33
So just complex on that.
6:35
But I think it was just like, logically,
6:38
you can kind of understand that like,
6:40
okay, I've never been like overweight,
6:41
but it's just when you're told that so much,
6:43
especially growing up as a young woman.
6:46
Yeah, you just don't have the best self-esteem, I guess.
6:49
And a lot of kind of when you're growing up in Asian families,
6:53
the, my head older brother,
6:55
and he was always the smart one.
6:57
He was the one that would, you know, get educated
6:59
and he was always smart and like, it was always like,
7:01
oh, like if they needed anything like my parents
7:03
or anything like that, they'd always go to him.
7:05
It's really common.
7:06
Like, you see it a lot.
7:08
Is it because it's super patriarchal historically?
7:12
I think it is still to that degree.
7:13
I mean, so many women and Asian families,
7:16
get educated, like now it's incredible,
7:18
but it was very much like, you just need to be pretty
7:21
and meet someone that's rich basically.
7:24
And like, they look after you, right?
7:26
You'll look for your value, not your value.
7:27
Exactly, exactly.
7:29
So that's why they also I think in their weird way
7:32
of loving you kind of tell you that you need to lose weight
7:36
or you need to put makeup on
7:37
or you need to like look a certain way, right?
7:39
Because for them, it's like that will give you a good life.
7:43
It's so interesting.
7:45
I have like a friend of a friend is a,
7:49
this is where you're going with us,
7:51
but she is a Victoria Secret model.
7:53
And I remember being in a taxi with her once
7:55
and she made some comment about how,
7:57
like the way her eyes smiles or something,
7:59
you know, it was like a, oh, I wish this was
8:01
and I just remember looking at her like,
8:03
you are the most beautiful person.
8:05
I think I've ever been in this close proximity
8:08
where I can't believe you have those insecurities.
8:10
And it's just, and you are honestly look like,
8:13
I can't even explain, like you actually,
8:15
I don't know if this is going to sound rude,
8:17
but like a princess or something, like genuinely,
8:19
you're so beautiful, anyone that's not watching this.
8:21
But it doesn't actually matter what you look like
8:23
because we all have such similar feelings
8:26
that you would be a literally objectively
8:28
one of the most beautiful women in the world.
8:30
I guess what I'm trying to say is
8:31
it's such a universal feeling to not feel like
8:34
you look good enough or you're enough or whatever.
8:37
And it's so sad actually.
8:39
It really is.
8:40
I think a lot of that time when you're younger,
8:42
like really affects, like, you know,
8:44
you're the way you are now and the way you present yourself
8:46
and the way that you feel, right?
8:47
But I think for me, it's just taken a lot of work.
8:51
You know, whatever experiences you go through,
8:53
like if you do want to change how you feel about something,
8:55
then it is going to take a lot of work
8:57
because it's unlearning a lot.
8:58
I think for me, it's like hitting those certain points
9:00
of going, okay, I'm going to get a degree.
9:02
I'm going to like, you know, have this career.
9:05
I'm going to do this or whatever.
9:06
And those are the things that I think
9:08
have now made me feel better about myself.
9:10
I still feel like I'd definitely struggle
9:12
with that in process in German and love for steam and stuff.
9:15
But it's, I feel like I've come so far from where I was.
9:19
And if we were to think about your specifically your journey,
9:23
how have you evolved in the way you relate to money
9:27
and finances?
9:28
Because I imagine like both of those things
9:31
are quite closely linked with regards
9:33
to the work that you've done,
9:34
given you now are running a business.
9:36
I didn't grow up with an idea of like,
9:39
how to deal with money, to be honest.
9:41
My dad left when I was like 13, moved back to Malaysia.
9:43
So basically mostly like raised by a single mom.
9:46
And even when he was living in Australia,
9:48
he wasn't really present.
9:49
Basically, all I saw was kind of my mom
9:52
and her way of kind of money.
9:55
And it was very much spending what you don't have.
9:58
For her, she also very much values physical possessions
10:02
because growing up in Malaysia,
10:03
she didn't have that much when she was younger.
10:06
And so having these physical possessions I think to her
10:09
is really valuable.
10:10
And that's what she feels like.
10:12
She's made it or makes her feel more stable to some degree.
10:16
Whereas I think for me, I still grew up working so much.
10:21
I think my first job was at like 15.
10:22
Even before that when my dad had businesses,
10:24
I was like 11 and I was like working with those type of things.
10:27
So I started Uni at 17 full time Uni,
10:31
which was a psychology and science spatula,
10:33
which meant I was like, I had to be at Uni for 20 hours a week.
10:37
Like it was, the contact hours was 20 hours a week,
10:40
let alone like some of your lectures
10:42
and things like that they need to do on-side.
10:43
But I was working about three jobs at once full time basically
10:48
and then doing 20 hours.
10:49
Like it was a lot.
10:50
Do you think that that was learned behavior?
10:54
Like seeing your, probably your dad working incredibly hard
10:58
as that kind of you were just like,
10:58
well, this is the only option?
11:00
When there's no generational wealth, it's very different, right?
11:03
Because I think, for example, kind of my partner,
11:08
who's Danish and kind of grew up in a very different circumstance
11:11
and there's free education and things like that,
11:13
I think that if you had a bit of money,
11:16
you could take a risk with it.
11:18
I didn't have that option to take a risk with it.
11:20
And so I moved out at 18 as soon as I could
11:24
and I got like a credit card out straight away
11:28
because that was how I would get a card to get around
11:31
or to, yes, sustain my living and things like that.
11:34
So I think I started off from negative
11:37
rather than starting off from a positive, right?
11:39
I think anything I earned, you know,
11:41
for most of my 20s to be fair, would just spend it.
11:44
And for me, it wasn't physical possessions.
11:47
It was going out, it was experiences, it was traveling.
11:50
It's hard when you start at a different level
11:53
and there's no generational wealth and there's no...
11:55
I never heard about investing.
11:57
I never heard about anything close to stocks
12:00
or anything like that.
12:01
When you say, you know, the model you had younger
12:04
was your mom who really loved things
12:06
because for her, that was security and safety
12:08
and meant like, you are okay.
12:11
I spend what I earned was sort of the model
12:13
that you had growing up or credit card debt.
12:15
Yeah, well, spending what you don't have as well.
12:18
So I think I did the same in terms of like,
12:21
if I was working alone, I was like,
12:23
well, I deserve this.
12:24
I just need a night out, right, with my girlfriends or whatever.
12:27
So I did it in a similar way,
12:29
but for experiences and things
12:31
and then I didn't have anything to physically show for it.
12:34
I think a lot of people,
12:35
if you actually start looking at the way you spend money,
12:38
you will notice that that is,
12:40
I would say incredibly common, not just for women,
12:43
but actually for guys too, like last night,
12:44
I was in bed feeling really sorry for myself.
12:47
And I found myself online looking at rugs
12:49
to buy for my room and I thought,
12:50
what are you doing?
12:51
This is not the time, like,
12:53
you are not less table frame of mind right now,
12:55
do not go and spend money.
12:57
But I think that there's this constant reaching and clutching
13:00
when there's a lot that you can't control,
13:02
spending money as a quick dogman hit, right?
13:05
When you grew up and your experience with money
13:08
went from credit cards and debt into a more stable,
13:13
you know, like you've taken a huge risk now
13:15
starting a business, not a free gift.
13:18
But I just mean, you know, like you're on the same boat.
13:20
Yeah, that's true.
13:22
But I mean, you know, you've really come a long way
13:24
from what, you know, would be described,
13:27
I guess, as your classic scarcity mindset of,
13:30
I need either things or experiences.
13:32
What were the unlocks that taught you
13:34
to be different with your money?
13:36
To be honest, I don't think I changed it much.
13:39
I was more aware of it, I think,
13:41
and I think I wasn't as stupid about, like, spending as I grew up.
13:47
But I would still, like, so I moved to Sweden.
13:49
I was there for four years.
13:50
I was in Kermeningham for two years.
13:52
And then now being in London for two.
13:54
But I think most of my kind of late 20s,
13:57
early 30s was kind of spent in the Nordics.
13:59
And, you know, it was just, it was first time
14:02
I was like in Europe and living there.
14:04
And, you know, you just travel every weekend, right?
14:07
And so for me, I think I still did a lot of that,
14:11
even into my kind of late 20s, early 30s.
14:14
Yeah, I would kind of just go, okay, like,
14:16
where am I going this weekend, like book a trip?
14:17
Because I'll be like, I'm from Australia.
14:19
Like, I mean, here you can buy one hour
14:21
and you're in a completely different country.
14:23
Like, this is incredible.
14:24
So I think I did a lot of that.
14:26
And to be completely honest, I think,
14:28
I saw a lot about this now.
14:29
And I think there's times in your life
14:31
where, for me, I don't think I would take back
14:34
those experiences to potentially have
14:37
100K in my bank account now.
14:38
However, I do think that this period's in your life
14:40
where you go, okay, now you actually need
14:42
to start caring about it.
14:44
From about 30 years or so, I was kind of like,
14:46
I've done a lot, I've seen a lot.
14:48
Like, let's get a bit more serious about this now.
14:51
And that's when I kind of started, you know,
14:53
well, I was already in the VC scene and stuff like that.
14:55
And so I think that helped.
14:56
Do you want to just explain VC?
14:57
A lot of people won't know what it is.
14:59
I came from a very different background
15:01
in terms of like, I studied psychology,
15:03
no business background, where, you know,
15:06
basically then moved into the startup ecosystem.
15:08
And then I started running a startup space
15:11
and then moved to Sweden and running incubator programs.
15:14
So basically helping a lot of early stage tech startups
15:17
grow or raise the first round of investment.
15:20
And then I worked at a venture capital fund,
15:22
so VC fund.
15:23
And that's basically where there is institutional money
15:27
that is then basically invested
15:29
in two different types of startups.
15:31
And in this case, it was tech startups
15:33
at a very early stage, they just started the company.
15:37
And so then I think also being around,
15:40
you know, that whole fundraising scene
15:42
and like investments, that was completely new to me.
15:45
And so that's where I think I learned a lot,
15:46
you know, I think I was 27 or something like that
15:48
when I moved to Stockholm.
15:50
And what I think I loved the most,
15:52
and I'm so so glad that I did,
15:54
my job was basically to help the startups
15:56
with anything they needed.
15:57
Big pun, part of that was introducing them to investors,
16:00
either angel investors or individual investors
16:02
that were investing their own money
16:04
or venture capital investors,
16:05
which were investing from a fund.
16:07
So what I would do is I then just end up
16:09
being friends with a lot of the investors.
16:11
And so when I put them in touch,
16:13
I would actually ask the investor before the meeting,
16:16
hey, can I just sit in the room with you?
16:18
Like just, I'll be a fly on the wall.
16:19
She's clever.
16:20
She's clever.
16:21
Yeah.
16:22
And so I would literally just like sit in the back
16:24
and like in the room and just like or on the call
16:27
and just learn like what questions are they asking
16:30
the startup?
16:31
And what is the startup answering in like
16:33
the closer investor friends I would have,
16:35
I would ask them like to debrief with me.
16:37
Like what did you think of that answer
16:39
and why do you think this way and stuff?
16:41
And to be honest, I think that experience,
16:44
not many people have access to,
16:46
because you could work as an investor
16:48
at a venture capital firm,
16:49
but maybe you're working at one, maybe two.
16:53
And then you get experience with different types
16:55
of investors in that fund,
16:57
but you don't really get experience with
16:59
10 different types of investors
17:01
in the way that they think,
17:02
which is what I got exposure to.
17:04
Because everyone thinks differently
17:05
and everyone will ask questions differently.
17:07
I mean, I think that's just genius
17:09
because the you're right, those rooms are so private
17:13
and often you don't even know
17:15
what a venture capital firm is
17:17
or what the idea of fundraising capital for business.
17:20
I didn't even really understand or know what that was.
17:22
And I think to understand that means that you inadvertently
17:26
understand more about business obviously
17:29
and ideas and what's going to work
17:31
and what's not in business strategy and blah, blah, blah.
17:33
But also just investing in general
17:35
because when you understand what a skilled
17:39
venture capital investor or angel investor
17:43
and those are people who are generally like
17:44
high net worth individuals
17:46
that would put money to start up.
17:47
When you understand what they look for,
17:49
you can also apply that to your own investing approach
17:52
when you're investing in other businesses
17:54
or the stock market or whatever.
17:55
And I think that it's so clever to have seen that side.
18:00
And the fact that there's, you know,
18:01
1.8% of VC funding now is going to women.
18:04
It's so, so low.
18:05
And it's because lots of people,
18:07
but especially women, they never in those rooms.
18:09
So one amazing experience.
18:11
So that's for female founders.
18:13
When you look at women of color founders,
18:15
it's 0.3% of all capital goes to women of color founders.
18:18
Oh my God. And so how did you end up in that job?
18:22
I mean, literally most of my uni degree
18:23
was spent in lab codes.
18:25
I did something completely different,
18:27
but I kind of was interested in the startup ecosystem.
18:29
I started hanging around kind of some of the startup spaces
18:32
and then I applied to a job like super out of the blue.
18:36
And I was like, there's no point in applying to this.
18:39
Like, and then I think one of my friends was like,
18:40
but just try, like why not?
18:42
And it was basically to manage a co-working space in Melbourne.
18:46
And so I did like 6,000 interviews
18:48
and I ended up getting the job.
18:49
Then, you know, ended up moving to Stockholm
18:51
because I had a partner at the time that was from there.
18:53
He was just like, okay, I want to stay in Australia.
18:55
And I was like, well, I want to move to Stockholm.
18:57
Like, I want to move to Europe.
18:58
And so I was like, let's just go on vacation for one week.
19:01
And if I get a job not knowing one single person,
19:03
not speaking the language, we'll move.
19:06
And he was like, yeah, sure.
19:07
Like good luck.
19:09
I could easily like, you know, accept that.
19:11
So I was like super determined.
19:13
And I went up with a physical resume
19:14
up to every startup space,
19:15
up to every VC fund, co-working space, everything in Stockholm.
19:18
And ended up like having two of them,
19:20
like keep doing interviews with me after I left.
19:22
And like, it was a vacation, right?
19:23
So then I went back to Melbourne.
19:24
Oh, well, that's so ballsy and cool.
19:26
Yeah.
19:27
And then one of them offered me the job.
19:30
So I ended up like putting my job in Melbourne
19:33
and moving over to Stockholm.
19:34
And then it was a proper startup space.
19:37
So I think I started as like community manager or something
19:40
and then end up being head of startups
19:42
and running the whole space.
19:44
And then from that again,
19:45
like the experiences that I had and to be honest,
19:47
like put myself into those experiences and situations
19:50
because you can just do your job and then leave.
19:53
I mean, I was working so late at night
19:55
because I was taking time out during the day
19:58
to sit into these rooms, right?
19:59
But it meant that I just worked later in the evenings.
20:02
And I basically didn't have any night off
20:04
for a very long time.
20:05
And I would go to events every single night,
20:07
meet people, network.
20:08
Like it was a lot for a lot of years,
20:11
but it absolutely paid off.
20:13
Like I had no idea what it was me see fund was.
20:15
I had no idea what anything to do
20:17
with like pre-seed whatever that meant.
20:19
And you know, it's like also pre-COVID
20:20
where everything was in person.
20:21
So they'd just like throw acronym,
20:24
acronym's around and you'd be like,
20:25
If it does, then you're like,
20:28
what are you talking about?
20:29
Like I know this, like two or three or four.
20:33
So much lingo in the investment space.
20:35
Like and I don't mean the stock market space.
20:37
I mean, like in the estate and businesses.
20:38
It is so outrageous.
20:40
I remember one, we did like a real quick
20:44
like kind of accelerator to upskill
20:45
like how the hell are we gonna get kept up?
20:47
You know, we basically like what you probably learned
20:50
in all of those meetings,
20:51
we just had to learn on the go.
20:53
And it was such a lot.
20:54
Oh my goodness.
20:55
And you just need to get used to feeling so stupid.
20:58
Yeah, a hundred percent.
20:59
Because you just like go, okay,
21:01
I'm just gonna have to learn this.
21:02
And like that night, go and Google everything, right?
21:05
Like.
21:06
And so let's chat about your investing,
21:09
your own personal investing.
21:10
So when it comes to where you put your money,
21:13
do you have some sort of emergency fund?
21:15
Do you have a part of money that you leave somewhere
21:19
that is your backup should all go to shit?
21:22
I definitely had a bit more of that
21:23
before I started my own company.
21:25
And then obviously everything is mostly in the company now,
21:30
but yes, I do.
21:31
I think that's super, super important to have.
21:33
Do you have a baseline that you won't go below
21:35
that you're like, I need this?
21:37
I think three months of your living expenses.
21:39
Yeah, I actually interestingly, I was three
21:42
and I decided I wanted more,
21:43
but now that I'm doing it, I'm like, is that a waste?
21:45
Like, should I just be investing that money?
21:47
I'm still trying to figure that out.
21:48
But I think for me, three months wasn't enough.
21:51
I was like, I didn't give me enough security.
21:53
I didn't actually feel that safe.
21:55
I agree.
21:55
I think minimum would be that.
21:57
But I think with the economy right now,
22:00
and it is quite hard to get jobs and things like that.
22:02
So I agree.
22:03
I think if you could do six, great.
22:04
Yeah, but I think minimum three is great.
22:07
And I don't think a lot of people currently have that.
22:09
Yeah, I'm not investing at the moment
22:11
because I want to get that up more
22:13
before I go back to investing.
22:15
When it comes to your short-term goals,
22:18
whether it's like you go on a trip,
22:20
like you just said off-mic that you were going,
22:22
you're going to go see your godson overseas
22:25
for his first birthday, like things like that
22:27
when you have to pay for, whether it be trips
22:29
or you're planning on wedding, things like that.
22:31
Yeah, people are expensive.
22:34
Where and how, what do you do with that money?
22:38
Do you have it in high interest savings accounts?
22:40
Do you have it in terms of like what is your approach
22:43
to kind of like the short-term stuff?
22:45
Yeah, I mean, I think that's different
22:47
where it's when it's personally
22:49
and then when you're, you know, like I'm getting married
22:51
basically, right?
22:52
So then it's different when you have a partner.
22:55
And like how do you work that out, right?
22:57
So again, it's different for everyone.
22:59
We have like our separate accounts, which we should always have.
23:03
And then, or several, and then a joint account.
23:07
So for everyday expenses and rent and things like that,
23:09
it just comes out of the joint account.
23:11
To be honest, right now with me doing a startup,
23:13
it's mostly my partner that is supporting.
23:16
And I think it has just been that conversation
23:18
where before I started the company,
23:21
I knew I wouldn't be able to take a salary
23:22
for a year, a year and a half,
23:24
end up being a year and a half
23:25
where he was funding our living.
23:27
But again, it needed to be a conversation beforehand.
23:30
And for me, I've never not had a salary.
23:33
Like I said, I worked so much when I was young
23:35
and then even like throughout.
23:36
So it was really weird for me
23:38
and it took a lot for me to actually rely on someone else
23:42
with my partner to go, I'm going to cover us
23:46
while you're doing the startup.
23:47
Like that was, oh, it took a lot to be honest.
23:51
Gosh, I can't, yeah, I actually can't imagine it.
23:54
And I think that it's, there's so many elements to it, right?
23:58
Because if it's someone you genuinely,
24:00
I mean, you're engaged now.
24:01
Congratulations.
24:02
Yeah, thank you.
24:03
But you weren't engaged at the time.
24:05
So you're making a decision on like essentially,
24:09
and I don't know if you have this in writing,
24:10
but it's kind of what's mine as yours is the approach, right?
24:14
Because he's funding the now,
24:17
with the idea that your company
24:20
will end up being very successful
24:22
and that that's something you'll share in.
24:24
Exactly.
24:25
I think it's really difficult for couples to navigate that.
24:27
Did you have that in writing before or what did you do?
24:31
We don't, and I think maybe we should have,
24:34
but we don't.
24:36
And I think it's just that kind of thing
24:37
what we know we're going to be together forever.
24:40
And I think, well, at least with my situation,
24:42
but a lot of kind of Asian families
24:45
and also different ethnic families,
24:47
like I think a lot of the time again,
24:48
like I mentioned, it's that you marry for money.
24:50
As a woman, you marry your partner
24:52
that's going to be stable and things like that.
24:54
And so growing up seeing that, that was how my parents had it,
24:58
I was like, I don't want to do that.
25:00
Like I want to always have my career,
25:03
always have my money and I will always support myself.
25:06
And I think that took a lot to be honest
25:08
to have a lot of these conversations.
25:09
I think my partner's just honestly the best person in the world.
25:11
And I think he's just so supportive.
25:14
I think to him, he's like,
25:15
but would you do the same if I was in that situation?
25:20
I was like, of course I would.
25:21
And he's like, so why is it so hard for you
25:23
to allow me to do the same?
25:24
But I also understand your hesitancy
25:27
and how like almost unnatural that would have felt for you.
25:29
Because it's almost doing exactly what you said you didn't want to.
25:32
Exactly.
25:33
There's still times where I'm a bit like,
25:35
no, like I can get this or like, I'll do this
25:37
or whatever.
25:38
And he's very much like, it's fine, like, you know.
25:39
And how do you then deal with things
25:41
though, like buying new earrings or funding your wardrobe?
25:45
I don't think he would have had any issue if I asked him,
25:48
like, hey, I want to go get this.
25:49
Like, can you transfer me or whatever?
25:51
He would have had no issues.
25:52
I think for that year and a half, I just didn't.
25:54
Oh, of course.
25:55
You're not in that situation now.
25:56
So I'm not in that situation right now taking a salary.
25:59
Yeah, but in that time,
26:00
because it was kind of a short period,
26:02
I just didn't buy those things.
26:04
Yeah, I think for me during that period,
26:06
it was just everything goes into the company,
26:08
bullfocus on that.
26:10
And then, yeah, it did take a hit in terms of like,
26:13
my kind of social life as well for sure.
26:15
And I think that's again,
26:16
where it comes back to those periods in your life
26:18
where you should be focusing more on saving
26:20
or I shouldn't feel bad about spending a lot
26:23
on having those amazing experiences.
26:26
But those were those periods where I go, nah.
26:28
I really liked what you just said.
26:30
It's, you go through different phases.
26:32
For me right now, I'm on building up my safety net.
26:34
That's important to me and that's my focus.
26:36
But, you know, there'll be a time
26:38
where my focus is different
26:40
and my priorities are different.
26:42
It's just like, okay, to be where you are
26:45
and know that once you've reached that short-term goal,
26:47
whatever it is, you move on to the next one.
26:49
And it's, I think it's always constantly assessing where you're at.
26:53
I think I also need to be very, very aware of the fact
26:56
that I am incredibly privileged to have a partner
27:00
that is that supportive.
27:02
And not just financially, I will say,
27:04
like, I mean, he books dinner most nights.
27:06
Like he will, you know, clean up the apartment,
27:08
like he will organize all this stuff.
27:09
Like it is also-
27:10
It's so dull.
27:11
I mean, he's incredible.
27:14
But like, I think I wouldn't have been, yeah.
27:17
Okay, with it if it wasn't him
27:18
and I wouldn't be in this privileged position
27:21
if it wasn't for him.
27:22
So I probably would have then just gotten
27:24
another full-time job and done this on the side.
27:27
And it would have taken a lot longer
27:28
and it wouldn't be in the same position.
27:30
And I just don't think everyone has those opportunities
27:33
that I've had now.
27:35
So, yeah.
27:36
When it comes then, so in terms of short-term goals,
27:39
it sounds like that's not really something that you focus on.
27:41
That's kind of a collective between-
27:44
You and your partner.
27:45
So for example, we're doing it.
27:46
It's like, you don't have a salary
27:48
that's gonna be able to pay for that.
27:49
That's, you know, it's a very much a team effort
27:51
when it comes to all finances, is that right?
27:53
Yeah, I mean, now I'm taking a salary.
27:55
So that helps, obviously.
27:57
Yeah.
27:58
But, yeah, I think it is just kind of,
28:00
we have a full budget for it.
28:01
And, you know, he's an ex-consultant.
28:03
So, great, with the Excel spreadsheets for everything.
28:07
So, yeah, I think that is kind of, you know,
28:09
will probably still be more him,
28:10
but it's not like a, okay, you take this,
28:13
I take this type of thing.
28:14
It's kind of just like, okay, now we need to pay for this.
28:16
Like, all right, I'll get this one or like,
28:17
now we need to pay for this flight.
28:19
Okay, I'll book the flights you book the hotel.
28:20
It sounds like a real team approach to finances.
28:23
Exactly.
28:24
It's really what's mine is yours,
28:26
opposed to, this is my income and or asset IE,
28:30
your business and then, you know, which, you know,
28:33
that's obviously working for you and that's amazing.
28:35
When it comes to investing, like,
28:37
do you, are you in a space where you either have before,
28:41
or you do now invest in other assets other than your business,
28:45
or is like 100% of your, I guess, financial future
28:49
and black capital goods, eggs and the business basket?
28:53
Yeah, I've done like a few small tickets
28:56
into, yeah, startups and, you know, female founders.
28:59
Mine are like Angel and Vista before.
29:01
Yeah, very small tickets and just stuff that like,
29:05
yeah, I want to kind of support, but very few.
29:08
So now it's just purely like company, basically,
29:11
that's my focus and everything is basically going into that.
29:14
When it comes to investing, like you just mentioned
29:18
that you did some small amounts into Angel investments.
29:22
So like, startup, is there any transferable questions
29:26
that you ask yourself that other people might be able to implement
29:29
when they're looking at public companies?
29:31
Because investing in private companies for anyone
29:33
that's like, what's going on?
29:34
It's a much high risk, you know, you could never see that money again.
29:38
It's very, very different when we see in the stock market.
29:40
So, yeah, if it's a stock market, then it's very much like you say,
29:43
it's lower risk, it's long term.
29:47
So I think you want to see something
29:49
that's kind of more of a long term company, right?
29:52
So startups, you look at stuff that's completely different, right?
29:55
Because you want kind of a quick return
29:57
or relatively quicker return.
30:00
And just to decode that for anyone else.
30:02
So the idea of Angel investing
30:04
or private company investing is that, yeah, as you say,
30:08
you're wanting to get like a 10x, which basically means
30:11
like 10 times the money you put in within a timeframe.
30:15
And that might be five years, could be longer, could be less.
30:18
But when it comes to the stock market
30:20
in terms of the long term building wealth
30:22
over a long period of time, that's, you know, 5, 10, 15, 20, 30
30:26
plus years. Exactly.
30:28
Which is why when it comes to the way that the curve we teach,
30:33
that's like sort of the core investments
30:34
should really be in your long term things.
30:36
Yes. You want a bit of fun money,
30:37
you want to be investing in direct stocks
30:39
or maybe even some Angel or an Angel in this, fine.
30:44
But like, it should be a small portion.
30:45
Yeah, that's not going to be your wealth generator.
30:48
I mean, it could be, but it's a much higher risk there
30:50
for it should be a much smaller part of your portfolio.
30:52
Yeah. It should be the money that you're willing
30:54
to never see again.
30:55
A lot of investing in startups is, and you're probably
30:58
going to have a different, you're on this.
31:00
But the way I say it is, it's much more out the founders
31:02
than it is so much like the balance sheet
31:06
or the revenue numbers.
31:08
Of course, those things are important.
31:09
Yes. But are there other things that you look at
31:12
other than when you hear a great idea?
31:14
The times that you did invest in startups,
31:16
what were your like tip, tip, tip?
31:18
Yes, founders, I mean, it depends
31:19
on what stage of the company you're at, right?
31:21
Like, did you just start it?
31:22
And you don't have a product in the market, for example,
31:25
then you don't have any revenue to look at, right?
31:27
So you don't actually have those numbers to look at.
31:29
So absolutely so much is on the founding team.
31:32
But then it's also on what is the market?
31:35
Like, what is your product?
31:37
And like, who's your target market for this?
31:40
How many people are there?
31:41
How many other companies that are similar are in the market?
31:44
What are they doing versus what you're doing?
31:46
Like, timing is a big thing as well.
31:48
Okay, you might be the first one,
31:50
but would you then have to educate the market
31:52
on what you're building?
31:52
So for example, if you look at Airbnb,
31:56
they didn't take off for a very long time.
31:58
How long?
31:59
I think it was something like eight years or something like that.
32:01
It was a long time, like don't quote me on the years,
32:04
but look them up.
32:05
Imagine like for the first time ever,
32:07
before Airbnb or anything was a thing.
32:10
Imagine pitching to an investor,
32:11
like, oh, you can rent out your home
32:13
to random people on the internet.
32:15
It's so funny when you say like that.
32:17
Because it does sound ridiculous.
32:19
Like, no, like, no one's gonna do this.
32:22
But it's even like after pay.
32:23
Like, oh, you did the stuff before you've paid for it.
32:26
People would be like, are you losing your mind?
32:29
Like, it's not gonna happen.
32:30
Like, can you guarantee that?
32:31
Yeah, no.
32:32
So I think it's also like educating the market.
32:35
There's a few different things that you can look at,
32:37
but the team absolutely,
32:39
because even if they've built a product
32:40
and everyone's like, yeah, this is gonna be great.
32:42
The market's gonna love it.
32:42
And then the market doesn't love it.
32:44
If you have a really great team, they will pivot.
32:47
They will try something else until it works.
32:50
So I would much rather focus on the founding team
32:53
rather than the product that they're building
32:56
or the market because it's such a learning journey, right?
32:58
I think all most startups would have pivoted at some point.
33:01
Yeah, I guess to be able to see the writing
33:02
on the wall before it happens, right?
33:04
It's the long-term strategic mind
33:07
that is behind a business and making decisions
33:10
before it's, you know, you're in a shitty situation.
33:13
I think that thing of constantly communicating
33:15
with your customers and finding out what they need and want
33:18
is really, really important.
33:19
So, but again, it takes the right founder
33:21
to want to do that and a willing to.
33:23
Is there any final things that you think
33:25
when it comes to how you approach money or business
33:31
that have been really instrumental learnings
33:34
that you think have allowed you to break free from
33:37
a lot of expectations or stereotypes
33:39
of what you should be doing with your time and money?
33:42
I think one is getting over that kind of imposter syndrome.
33:44
That's been a piece of work in progress, isn't it?
33:47
It won't cost them, right?
33:49
Because I think a lot of people can make you feel bad
33:51
about being like, how do you not know this
33:52
or like, how do you not invest in stocks yet
33:54
or like anything like that, right?
33:55
I think for me, I've always been
33:57
some of that's been incredibly curious.
33:59
Like again, I don't have a business background.
34:00
I've never studied it like I don't, I don't come from that
34:03
and pretty much everyone that worked in venture capital
34:07
came from investment banking consulting business studies.
34:10
Like I was very, very odd one out,
34:13
but it's because I learned so much along the way
34:16
and from people and podcasts like this for two.
34:20
Yeah, there's a lot of information online now.
34:22
I think that you can learn it from.
34:23
So that and then just getting over
34:24
this whole imposter syndrome thing, right?
34:26
Because once you learn more, you get a bit better
34:28
and a bit more confident in it.
34:30
So I think if you just keep learning, yeah, it helps a lot.
34:34
I think, yeah, I think that's been for me
34:36
just like constantly saying curious, like, exactly.
34:38
You don't know something cool.
34:40
Someone didn't know it at one point too.
34:41
Exactly.
34:42
It doesn't matter if you don't know what,
34:44
even like for me, I think the curve would never have started.
34:47
Had I not asked millions of questions?
34:49
Yes, I mean, that's not true.
34:51
It was doing events, but like, what I mean is
34:53
the ripple effect of ask a question,
34:55
it's okay to not know is such a massive barrier
34:59
and I think that when we first started the podcast
35:01
and it was like, I didn't know what a stock was.
35:04
I honestly just didn't even know what it meant.
35:06
It's fine to not know things,
35:08
but that often is the barrier to breakthrough
35:11
for more opportunities, whether that be business
35:14
or financial growth.
35:15
Yeah, I think we look at kind of a lot of people
35:17
that are investors and they do that as a day job
35:19
as like, they're the smartest in the world
35:21
and like, they know everything.
35:23
It really don't.
35:24
Let's just like be clear about that, right?
35:28
No one knows what they're up to.
35:29
Exactly.
35:30
I don't think it's just slightly unclear, children really.
35:32
Yeah, exactly.
35:34
So I was like running out.
35:36
So as long as you just kind of go,
35:37
you know what, like even this partner at a fund
35:40
is going to make mistakes and invest in the companies
35:42
that don't do well, like most of them won't do well
35:45
that they invest in too.
35:46
So just take that as like a, you know, example and go,
35:50
okay, cool, like even though they're meant
35:51
to be like the best at their job,
35:53
it's still going to invest in 20 companies that fail.
35:56
Oh, great.
35:57
Thank you so much for coming in.
35:59
I'm so glad we managed to do this before you move.
36:01
Just try again.
36:03
How exciting.
36:04
And for anyone that wants to learn
36:05
about your incredible company, yes.
36:08
And what you're building, where can they find
36:10
more information about Tyler?
36:11
Yes.
36:12
So yeah, maybe I'll kind of just give a quick
36:15
and true, so yeah, start of the company
36:18
earlier last year.
36:19
It was based on my kind of experiences
36:21
of really struggling to find a therapist
36:23
or coach that understood my cultural backgrounds
36:25
and all the different things that I think we kind of face
36:28
as, you know, people of color,
36:29
different cultural backgrounds or immigrants.
36:32
So basically, Tyler Thrive is a mental platform
36:35
that matches your therapist and coaches
36:37
who understand your culture, language or religion.
36:40
So whether you first want to in Europe
36:41
that's really focusing on culturally, constantly.
36:43
It's so amazing.
36:44
And honestly, when you hear companies
36:47
that just sound like, why does that not exist already?
36:50
How does that not?
36:51
It's the same with like a lot of,
36:53
and like, I know what happens in the medical space.
36:56
There's a lot of misunderstanding that happens
36:58
because language barrier,
36:59
language barrier, or culturally.
37:00
It totally, and so it makes so much sense
37:02
that like from a mental health perspective,
37:04
how important that is.
37:05
I mean, when I was literally looking for it,
37:07
I was like for myself, I was just like,
37:09
okay, why is this not a thing?
37:10
And then I was like, no, seriously, is this a thing?
37:13
And then I just like kept like searching and googling
37:15
and I was like, okay, I should do this
37:18
because there's such a big market for this,
37:21
which is quite crazy.
37:22
So yeah, basically, it's just that we shouldn't have to pay
37:24
to educate our therapist about racism,
37:27
cultural identity issues, generational trauma,
37:29
like any of that, that our therapist and coaches have,
37:33
all the very similar lived experiences to what we have
37:37
because they've actually experienced it themselves,
37:39
or they're very highly educated around
37:41
how to deal with these type of situations.
37:44
And so if anyone's wanting to use it,
37:48
or they're listening, thinking that's amazing,
37:51
how do I?
37:52
Yeah, we actually just went live like this last week,
37:55
which is crazy.
37:56
Congratulations, that's so amazing.
37:59
Yeah, it's been really exciting,
38:01
but I'm also like, just get it out.
38:02
Yeah, it's like when you've been building for the long.
38:05
So yeah, www.tala.la,
38:08
thrivethrabe.com.
38:11
Wow, one amazing platform.
38:12
And so is it available for Australians?
38:15
Is it all over the world?
38:17
So UK and EU currently.
38:19
And then Australia next year,
38:20
because that's where I'll be expanding it out.
38:21
And the government rebate system over there is amazing.
38:25
Yeah, honestly, yeah.
38:26
So we don't need to do much as a company
38:28
for individuals to get free therapy,
38:30
or for heavily rebate therapy.
38:33
Well, thank you so much for putting out
38:35
an incredible business that so many people will just get
38:39
an unbelievable amount of value from,
38:42
but also thank you for sharing your life and your story
38:45
and how you ended up where you are,
38:47
is so awesome to learn more about you.
38:49
Yeah, thank you.
38:50
Thank you.
38:51
Thank you so much for listening to Raising the Curve.
38:53
These conversations are designed to teach you everything
38:55
you need to know to be better with your money,
38:57
saving, to investing, to talking with your friends
38:59
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39:00
And if you like what you've heard,
39:01
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39:04
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39:06
Let us know what you thought about the episode.
39:07
And it only takes one second,
39:09
and it would really make our week a month, our year.
39:12
Yeah, yeah, so please do it.
39:14
OK, love you.
39:15
Bye.
39:16
OK, quickly, the curve was created to empower
39:18
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39:19
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39:22
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39:24
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39:27
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39:29
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39:31
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39:33
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39:36
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39:38
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39:40
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39:41
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39:42
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