Latest / Coaches Rising / 260 - *REPOST* Joel Monk: Mixed Mystical Arts on the Sacred Changemakers Podcast

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260 - *REPOST* Joel Monk: Mixed Mystical Arts on the Sacred Changemakers Podcast · Coaches Rising

0:00
[UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching.
0:19
[SPEAKER_02]: welcome back to the coaches rising podcast.
0:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm laughing a little bit because actually this is a little bit different today.
0:28
[SPEAKER_02]: What we're going to do today is we're going to post in a moment a podcast that I was a guest on.
0:35
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a beautiful conversation that deeply moved me.
0:38
[SPEAKER_02]: I was interviewed by Jane Warrillow, who is the founder of Sacred
0:45
[SPEAKER_02]: what a beautiful hot cast host Jane is.
0:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I felt very moved to share this conversation.
0:51
[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of vulnerable because you're going to hear from me and my views.
0:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Normally the tables there are the other way around and I'm the one asking the questions.
1:00
[SPEAKER_02]: So,
1:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I've bailed on this in the past when someone interviewed me.
1:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I chickened out, sharing it, and this conversation, I just felt like, hey, you just got to do it.
1:11
[SPEAKER_02]: So here it is.
1:12
[SPEAKER_02]: You're going to hear from Jane Moore.
1:15
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to invite her as a guest on to the Coach's Rising Podcast soon.
1:20
[SPEAKER_02]: So I want to say too much more about Jane and Sacred Changemakers, other than that, I feel a kindred spirit.
1:28
[SPEAKER_02]: to say the least with Jane and her mission with sacred change makers of inspiring coaches to move from being a coach to this archetype of a sacred change maker.
1:40
[SPEAKER_02]: That's so deeply resonant with how I hold things and the view I hold for coaches.
1:46
[SPEAKER_02]: So more to come from Jane on our podcast soon and we're going to shift over now and this is the sacred change makers podcast where Jane
1:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey Joel, welcome to the Sacred Changemakers podcast.
2:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I am really excited to introduce you to our audience, but let me first start by just asking you how you're doing today, Joel.
2:08
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm really delighted, Jane, to be with you when our paths crossed.
2:12
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, wow, how can I not know Jane already?
2:15
[SPEAKER_02]: I felt such a kindred soul, so yeah, it's good to be here.
2:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm really looking forward to our conversation.
2:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I know our audience is going to just from our short interactions.
2:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I know our audience is going to really resonate with this conversation that we're about to have today.
2:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's see where we go.
2:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'd love to start by grounding us in the bigger picture.
2:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, we all know we're living in extraordinary times.
2:41
[SPEAKER_00]: There's so much uncertainty, so much turbulence.
2:44
[SPEAKER_00]: People are talking about collapse.
2:46
[SPEAKER_00]: but there's also some possibility kind of woven into that.
2:51
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you look at the times Joel that we're living in today, what do you feel is most needed from us as coaches and change makers?
3:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, the big question.
3:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, of course, it's the extraordinary times.
3:06
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think these times are in a way a clarion call for us as transformational practitioners into the depth of our practice.
3:15
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I see these times as a very archaimical, like a dojo.
3:20
[SPEAKER_02]: When I went to art school, I was remember this saying where when the going gets weird, the weird get going and I feel like that's not to underplay the sense of collapse.
3:30
[SPEAKER_02]: I've certainly been through my own dark night of the soul experience around the kind of projected sense of future that I felt like I would have.
3:39
[SPEAKER_02]: I think these times are just calling for us each to play our own music as coaches as practitioners to meet ourselves in the depth of our souls and not to try to save the world.
3:52
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that ever worked anyway and actually is one of the things a lot of coaches I mean need to work through, really being of help to their clients in a particular way.
4:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Joanna Macy, a net once, and she said that when the ship goes down, it's time to celebrate.
4:10
[SPEAKER_02]: The transmission with which she said it, it was shocking.
4:12
[SPEAKER_02]: It was like there was such a radiant mischievous sparkle in her eyes to bring together the sense of grief and loss of the sense of indescribable devastation we can feel, but at the same time the aliveness that brings out in her as an essence of
4:30
[SPEAKER_02]: appreciation and deep gratitude and the sacredness of life in the world.
4:34
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think of we can embrace all of this.
4:39
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it evokes something inside of us as practitioners.
4:44
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, who knows where we're going?
4:47
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think that's really true, but you set a lot there that I'd like to unpack and I'd like to start with one of the very first things you said, which is to play our own music, because as coaches and change makers, that sounds like such an easy thing to say, like why wouldn't we play our own music?
5:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And yet in the world that we're living in, very often I notice how often it's almost like the world or different contexts is trying to get me to be something else.
5:17
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, so what do you mean by that, Joel?
5:20
[SPEAKER_00]: What does it mean to you?
5:22
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a really rich question as well.
5:24
[SPEAKER_02]: In a sense, it could say this might be one of the purposes of life.
5:28
[SPEAKER_02]: In a way, I think when we play around music, for me, it's when we've been through this journey of recognizing the different roles we've inherited from our upbringing, from our family system, being a good boy, a good girl.
5:44
[SPEAKER_02]: What is it to be a good person in society?
5:47
[SPEAKER_02]: we inherit a lot and that's not necessarily a bad thing, but that can actually play out as we then interact with other people and our coaching clients.
5:58
[SPEAKER_02]: If we haven't started to look more deeply inside the ways we feel like we need to be value for money for our clients.
6:05
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, that can hinder and limit the expression of our genius or soul.
6:11
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's
6:17
[SPEAKER_02]: the first half of life where we think a good career and a marriage will lead to.
6:24
[SPEAKER_02]: fundamentally good life.
6:26
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, there's nothing wrong with those things inherently, but it's what we project onto them.
6:32
[SPEAKER_02]: So as we start to see through all that, you know, when maybe we encounter a shocking event, someone dies close to us or, right now, what we're going through collectively, you know, where all the ways we've been doing things suddenly don't seem to make as much sense.
6:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Then we start to question more deeply and we start to recognize that
6:53
[SPEAKER_02]: We won't find the sense of safety and security that we were quite looking for and that can feel scary.
6:59
[SPEAKER_02]: But actually, what it opens up is this kind of more liberated expression of life through us.
7:08
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and this is when I feel the music starts to come online.
7:12
[SPEAKER_02]: in a way we could say there's a thread that's calling us forth and we can look back over our lives and see this thread of the things that most movers and we're most inspired by how that's part of this music and I'm happy to share you know concrete examples if that makes it more useful.
7:32
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a sum of the ways and it's such a huge question but
7:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, you've spoken there to something that feels, you know, on one level I could say what you're speaking to is like self improvement in a way.
7:48
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like becoming self-altered as an individual in life.
7:52
[SPEAKER_00]: But it feels there's a texture to what you're describing that feels much more, well, it feels deeper than that.
8:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And you described a threat calling us forward, so I've got to ask you.
8:06
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, when you look back on your own life, Joel, what have been the threads that have pulled you forward that have called to you?
8:13
[SPEAKER_00]: That have got you deeply immersed in this work that you're doing now with the multiple perspectives that you hold.
8:24
[SPEAKER_02]: So just before I answer that, what you just said about self-improvement and self-authority is really important, I think there's a massive paradigm shift taking place, which is about a shift away from self-improvement and beyond self-authorship.
8:39
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's where the music comes in.
8:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, so you know hopefully we'll get there if not we do part two or something.
8:49
[SPEAKER_02]: So my own life
8:54
[SPEAKER_02]: at the things that moved me, I start to see a certain kind of.
9:00
[SPEAKER_02]: theme or pattern to it.
9:02
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, if I look at the way I played with my Star Wars figures when I was a child, I would kind of attune to a certain kind of, what I would do is, instead of like running around, I let my friends wear, I would put them in a kind of scene and, you know, I was really attuned to the configuration of the figures and there was this sense of patterning and beauty to it.
9:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And I didn't know that at the time, but it once I got it to that place, I was like,
9:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Fast forward a few years, I'm an artist making paintings and installations, and in my studio, I would get into these states of rapture and flow, making art, and I was holding space.
9:44
[SPEAKER_02]: I was attuning to beauty and aliveness in the painting.
9:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Some of the marks and the configurations I made just didn't really have this life to it.
9:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And then other ones I made, it
9:56
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's simply, it takes, you can feel it.
9:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was a DJ in my clubs, and I was quite lucky to play to big crowds.
10:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the configuration of songs and the relationship to the crowd, as they were going, you know, really kind of getting into the music.
10:13
[SPEAKER_02]: And then as a coach, you know, holding space, attuning to that same sense of emergence and a liveness.
10:21
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's what I recognized of how other people reflect this back to me.
10:26
[SPEAKER_02]: But there were certain ingredients that were there in all of them.
10:28
[SPEAKER_02]: There was a sense of attunement being a container.
10:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And actually later on that sense of being a container started to feel more archetypal and energetic and somatic.
10:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there's a toolment to a liveness, to emergence, to the delight, the truth beauty and goodness inside of that.
10:50
[SPEAKER_02]: As I move through my life, it's as if I circle around that same theme and more of it has revealed to me.
10:55
[SPEAKER_02]: And when I coach from that place,
11:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I said, it's not just an idea in my mind, it's a, it's a felt sense and embodied feeling when I coach from that place, that's where I'm at my best and I'm at my edge.
11:11
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah.
11:13
[SPEAKER_00]: That makes a lot of sense to me.
11:15
[SPEAKER_00]: It really does.
11:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm not an artist in that way, but I do write poetry.
11:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's, you're speaking to something that I really recognise here.
11:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Something that,
11:26
[SPEAKER_00]: kind of lies beyond the cell in a way, something I hope I can explain it in a way that makes sense.
11:33
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's like a sacred flow that kind of like you say moves through me and I hear you speaking of it moving through you rather than just you figuring out what it is you want to go and create or paint and then just doing that, right?
11:51
[SPEAKER_00]: There's something beyond the self and maybe this ties us back
11:55
[SPEAKER_00]: to what you were saying about the self-authorship that, you know, beyond self-improvement, beyond those kinds of changes, there is something deeper, you know, that goes beyond the limits of the kind of self-improvement paradigm and a deeper,
12:13
[SPEAKER_00]: It feels sacred to me.
12:15
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the only word that I can describe.
12:17
[SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like, and I can feel it in this conversation now.
12:21
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, often I think, you know, podcast, I'm interviewing someone.
12:24
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a dialogue, but I sometimes think of it as a trial-log.
12:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Are we creating space for whatever it is that wants to emerge between us to come through to have it say and almost have
12:43
[SPEAKER_00]: what does this feel like to you?
12:45
[SPEAKER_00]: How would you describe this?
12:48
[SPEAKER_00]: This flow that maybe it's consciousness emerging through you.
12:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how you describe it, but beyond that self-improvement, beyond the self, I hear you speaking to something else emerging.
13:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sense?
13:04
[SPEAKER_02]: It's beautiful, yeah.
13:06
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I feel it as you point towards it as well.
13:09
[SPEAKER_02]: It's as if it gets brighter or louder.
13:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, it, I'm so pleased you speak about these conversations in that way because I think
13:19
[SPEAKER_02]: when you look at coaching, when you look at podcasts, that's the best of what they can be in a sense is there's an intelligence that moves through to more people coming together and starts to co-here and download into existence.
13:34
[SPEAKER_02]: And you can feel the best podcasts and I can feel your presence as being an invitation into that place.
13:41
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think,
13:43
[SPEAKER_02]: It is a feeling.
13:45
[SPEAKER_02]: It's this feeling of aliveness.
13:47
[SPEAKER_02]: And you see it, I don't know if you watch something like Britain's Got Talent.
13:51
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I don't want to be honest, watch it.
13:53
[SPEAKER_02]: But sometimes I see clips from it.
13:55
[SPEAKER_02]: People have pulled them out because someone will come up and maybe it's someone dancing and there's something starts to come through that person and everybody's touched by it.
14:04
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a beauty to it.
14:06
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just inherently beautiful for its own sake.
14:10
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think
14:13
[SPEAKER_02]: This is where we talk about the cross-paradematic practice and mixed mystical arts.
14:18
[SPEAKER_02]: If I get back to the thing around self-authorship, self-improvement, for me what's happening right now is there's an awakening taken place the amount of people interested in.
14:30
[SPEAKER_02]: something beyond ourselves is unprecedented and I think it's a response to our times.
14:34
[SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the things that's breaking down has been a paradigm in modernity that's emphasized the separate sense of self, the world of mechanistic parts, which has led to was over-privileging our analytical minds which want to measure things and science is excelled out.
14:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Amazing things have come from that but we've lost certain things and so
14:59
[SPEAKER_02]: What I see emerging now in the coaching industry is schools or incident people coaching around an unfolding paradigm.
15:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Where we're not trying to one of the problems of self-improvement and you see it everywhere on YouTube is like it's saying there's something wrong with you.
15:16
[SPEAKER_02]: and you need to fix it, you know?
15:18
[SPEAKER_02]: So then you feel a little sense of lack and there's something in there imagined future that if you get to that place you'll be okay and it creates attention.
15:27
[SPEAKER_02]: So instead what emerging is, you know, this move to what if we're already whole?
15:32
[SPEAKER_02]: right now.
15:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Not just as an idea.
15:34
[SPEAKER_02]: And what if we let our experience be just the way it is and that we actually orient towards coming to ever close a contact with ourselves, around the things we love the most?
15:47
[SPEAKER_02]: And then
15:49
[SPEAKER_02]: That way of coaching gets you out of needing to deploy a process, you know, a psychological map to five stage process to get somewhere and you're now working with the intelligence of the moment and what wants to shine through and that's where this feeling.
16:05
[SPEAKER_02]: can start to come in.
16:06
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a liveness.
16:07
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like you feel it when you, you know, and it really means you have to be humble and it's actually liberating to let go of having to be powerful coach in that sense.
16:18
[SPEAKER_02]: It invites us into a whole different curriculum of learning and maturity, but you know, we're expanding beyond our minds and into this space of presence and the
16:34
[SPEAKER_00]: You're reminding me a few years ago I spent some time in the Amazon rainforest with three different indigenous nations, and I met this glorious, we was a shaman, but he was the head of his village, and I remember him sitting with me, and he didn't speak a lot of English, so he came through translation, but he actually said to me, I was talking about change, and he said, no, no, it's nothing new, it's just about remembering.
17:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've really sat with that for a while, and as you were speaking there, Joel, I could really feel that what if change isn't because so much of, particularly the self-improvement is around and coaching, it's like, how can we bring something more to you that you don't already say no?
17:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Or whatever?
17:18
[SPEAKER_00]: How can we expand your knowledge base, particularly in some of my work with leaders?
17:24
[SPEAKER_00]: What if it's not that?
17:26
[SPEAKER_00]: What if it is about remembering what we've lost?
17:29
[SPEAKER_00]: What if it is about tapping into?
17:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's the collective intelligence.
17:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that's what we're pulling from.
17:39
[SPEAKER_00]: But it feels like when you said we've lost things, I often say, when I look out into the world, it feels like we've lost our soul, particularly many organisations and corporate life.
17:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, what if there's a different texture to the changes that are wanting to be birthed at this time?
18:01
[SPEAKER_00]: What if it is just about as listening, deeper and allowing more than kind of just getting out of our own way and unlearning more than it's about learning.
18:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but I do know your mixed-marked mystical arts really resonates because for me at this stage in my career, it does feel like pulling on multiple paradigms.
18:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And even I would say, and I don't know how you will respond to this, but multiple dimensions of life, not just in the physical plane.
18:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, beautiful reflections are so appreciate them.
18:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to give a nod to my friend, Sean Wilkinson, who's just a real genius in this territory, who coined that term mixed to call art.
18:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, I'm going to borrow that from you.
18:53
[SPEAKER_02]: We've had, we meet regularly and we get into conversations like the one we're having right now.
18:58
[SPEAKER_02]: I do feel
19:00
[SPEAKER_02]: this expansion out of, you know, pure rationality is really important and important in my own life.
19:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think from what it seems like to me and when I listen to other wise people, the complexity of the challenges we face,
19:21
[SPEAKER_02]: are, you know, not going to, we've been trying to solve them with just our kind of analytical rational.
19:28
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't want to denigrate that, you know, it's not like throwing out thinking is a really important part of our experience.
19:35
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's when it's aligned with other faculties that we become more coherent, I think.
19:40
[SPEAKER_02]: that but it's obvious that we're not really solving things right now and the way we could and what faculties could we actually tap into that would be very generative and where we might get certain solutions from, you know, and I've seen this in my own life.
19:58
[SPEAKER_02]: But I've found a few things really important to me is like vibrational intelligence has become incredibly important and I think not surprisingly as we mature and move out of a materialist paradigm.
20:16
[SPEAKER_02]: quantum physics moved out of it a hundred years ago, but we're still in mainstream society.
20:21
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the dominant view.
20:22
[SPEAKER_02]: This kind of vibrational mastery and experience is becoming important.
20:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I think imagination, imaginal work, which is often denigrated to daydreaming, but it's incredibly powerful working with dreams and imagination.
20:38
[SPEAKER_02]: It can tap into very shamanic territories, so even modalities like internal family systems, which I use, when you learn internal family systems, it has a structure to it, but actually you can move beyond that structure and it liberates that practice and it becomes very shamanic, deeply, archetypal and imaginable and collective.
21:00
[SPEAKER_02]: I've found it very powerful to start to kind of play with these different realms of experience intuition, I'd.
21:09
[SPEAKER_02]: systemic kind of intelligence and what they open as up to, you know, the kinds of insights and revelations that start to come through with those experiences.
21:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, just one more before I, you know, be on psychology as well, because a lot of coaching
21:31
[SPEAKER_02]: is based in a psychological view and we've psychologist life a lot now, you know, if you look all the quick, but that's a good thing, you know, is AND.
21:42
[SPEAKER_02]: then we can reduce everything to psychology and, you know, the kind of living and the world out there that's not really out there that we are, you know, in deep intimacy with can be, we can lose connection with that.
21:59
[SPEAKER_02]: If we psychologists, everything's how about for you, Jane.
22:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, before I answer that, there are really want to underline something that you just said, because I think it's really important in this conversation.
22:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And you were talking about psychology, and then you said, and if there's three letters that I think are really important during these times, it's that word.
22:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think this is what's incredible about these times we're living in is we can be influenced by so many incredible bodies of work that all come into change almost through different portals or different doors and the intersections between these bodies of work to me is where the magic lies.
22:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
22:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And I see sometimes a lot of coaches, they can be, you know, most of coaches, they can be at mastery level.
22:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And yet, they've walked through a very narrow door.
22:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's almost like they only know, I don't know, I just, like, gestalt coaching or something.
23:01
[SPEAKER_00]: That's all they know.
23:02
[SPEAKER_00]: But for me, in these times, when we have such access to
23:07
[SPEAKER_00]: such incredible bodies of work that have got deep roots, you know, for it from a long time.
23:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I know you, you have had access to like semantics to Thomas Hubble's work on trauma, like circling all these different things.
23:22
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'd love to know how they converge in your practice, because for me, the magic is in the in between of these, how they integrate into form.
23:33
[SPEAKER_00]: in a way while we're inspiring change with clients.
23:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So how do you hold this multiplicity of knowledge in a way but also transcend it into the wisdom that lies in between?
23:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sound?
23:52
[SPEAKER_02]: That's yeah.
23:54
[SPEAKER_02]: It
23:55
[SPEAKER_02]: I think what's helped me greatly is having what I'd call a generative ontology, and that's a fancy way of pointing to what I just described with an unfolding paradigm.
24:08
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like a lot of theories are more prescriptive.
24:12
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's describing just types and stages.
24:15
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you read about it, but then you're not quite sure.
24:19
[SPEAKER_02]: what what do you actually do?
24:21
[SPEAKER_02]: So having for me a way of being which is you know Steve March has been a big mentor for me around this but circling also is a very generative ontological practice and it's you know so it's this experience of instead of trying to change.
24:37
[SPEAKER_02]: our experience to get somewhere.
24:39
[SPEAKER_02]: We meet it as it is and it reveals more and more of its depths.
24:43
[SPEAKER_02]: We let it be and then let it unfold.
24:46
[SPEAKER_02]: So having that can actually, I can then start to use that, like a principle underlying all the other modalities and it weaves them all together.
24:56
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, then I think also it's useful to kind of have certain models that can show us
25:05
[SPEAKER_02]: like skillful means.
25:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think this is why across parodomatic practice is useful.
25:11
[SPEAKER_02]: So what depth is showing up with our client right now.
25:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Are they identified with a part?
25:19
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, in which case we want to help them name that part and disidentify from it.
25:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Are they deeply immersed in a felt experience or a felt image?
25:30
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, which might invite them going more deeply into that?
25:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Are they landing in a quality of presence?
25:36
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and they're really experiencing their wholeness within which?
25:41
[SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't want to help them disidentify from that, you know, whereas with a part I might, with presence it would be helping them and have it that experience more fully.
25:51
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think this has been really key for me to, when I work with dreams with my clients.
25:57
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the same process.
25:58
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like we inhabit the dream and they experience a perspective within a dream as fully as possible and then it begins to unfold and we stay with that felt image.
26:10
[SPEAKER_02]: you had a beautifully articulate question.
26:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I've answered part of it, but yeah, let me ask you something else because as I'm listening to, I'm kind of putting myself in the shoes of a listener and thinking, are would you say that there are any risks when coaches stay in one paradigm on methodology or maybe one way of
26:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I think so.
26:37
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think skillful means.
26:40
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think there are, you know, one of the risks is you're not bringing the right modality that would, you know, be most effective in that moment, you know, everything becomes a nail because you've got a hammer.
26:55
[SPEAKER_02]: So to speak,
27:00
[SPEAKER_02]: in that sense.
27:01
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's potential for doing harm if you're working cross-powered and adequately as well.
27:06
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's just a way that we can reduce our client, person we're with, to a particular lens.
27:16
[SPEAKER_02]: If that's all we have, it's like we reduce them to
27:19
[SPEAKER_02]: to see them through that lens and now that can bring some benefits, you know, you could become exceptionally well-skilled in a very precise lens and method, you know, to start coaching or something, which is a bit of an irisana, because to start when you're told, but
27:40
[SPEAKER_02]: People aren't one thing, they're not just parts, they're not just systems, they're very complex and beautiful.
27:52
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it really invites a kind of a greater sensibility of involvement when you hold these different paradigms.
28:01
[SPEAKER_02]: keeps you out of dogmatism, you remain more humble, I think, the more you have different paradigms you start to learn, you become more humble.
28:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think in a way, the probably the greatest benefit is if you've worked with different paradigms, who are you that can hold those different paradigms?
28:22
[SPEAKER_02]: That's I think the most fundamentally important part, so
28:27
[SPEAKER_02]: when I was a coach at the beginning, train, I mean, I still train in coaching and it can still happen where you meet this beautiful approach, but then you absorb it and you actually become socialized by what I mean is it's like almost that's who I am now, I'm a, you know, just thought coaching.
28:45
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it takes me a while.
28:47
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I have to shake it off.
28:48
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, wait a minute, because that can take me out of that music that we talked about earlier.
28:52
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I'm now coaching in the way the Gestalt coaching school trained me to do it.
28:58
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm trying to follow that process.
29:00
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I really important part of a coach's journey is to say, what's my theory of change?
29:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, what's my, and this is where they can start to weave together all the different elements of what they've inherited, which is often based on their inspiration, this thread we talked about.
29:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's really powerful.
29:23
[SPEAKER_02]: You can start to land in that sense of kind of genius more.
29:27
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's, it invites you into this very fluid place where, yeah, I mean, in a sense,
29:39
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, even the best coaches I've met, even the role of a coach is very light and, you know, that comes with a lot of baggage.
29:50
[SPEAKER_02]: We haven't talked about this.
29:51
[SPEAKER_02]: When it's since they're in a transformational connection, which is unfolding, this is very potent.
29:57
[SPEAKER_02]: This is where this kind of luminous feeling can come in.
30:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I had goosebumps when you were talking there because you were speaking to something that I think again is really important, but we don't often talk about as coaches.
30:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we talk about the way we inspire change in others, but what we don't talk about is how that impacts our being, our sour, so I just had goosebumps when you were speaking
30:32
[SPEAKER_00]: is being called out from us at this time like changes and just out there.
30:37
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just with our clients, it's not just in the context in which we're working.
30:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It's in every moment, it's in our own essence, our own senses.
30:52
[SPEAKER_00]: our own journey in a way, our own unfolding, our own emerging, and how it changes us.
31:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Surely that's just as important.
31:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I found great liberation when I started to ask what kind of experience do I want to have when I'm coaching?
31:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Because it's so often about the client, you know, and actually I think a massive growth area for a lot of coaches I meet is
31:21
[SPEAKER_02]: for them to bring themselves more in the coaching.
31:23
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't mean the coaching becomes about them and they start showing stories about them all the time, but to actually bring there what's the impact that being in relationship with the client is having on them and to share that more boldly.
31:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that can bring you right into the immediate of this transformational connection.
31:44
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's something else you said, which is, so our mutual friend Peter Hawkins comes to mind,
31:52
[SPEAKER_02]: In a way, we could say like, you know, I'm here as Joel and you're a Jane and, you know, we both like things and we want to share that and explore it, but it feels more to me like life wants us to have a conversation and move through us.
32:09
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a bit like what we were saying earlier.
32:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And that, it's not like I'm serving my purpose and you're serving your purpose.
32:19
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like we're serving a purpose, an ecological purpose, so much bigger purpose than you could be reduced.
32:28
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's part of where we're being invited to go as a species, really.
32:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
32:36
[SPEAKER_00]: In many ways, this feels at the heart of things for me, in a way, because when I've reflected back on my own career, I've noticed how impacted I've been in my career by, I'll call it hyper individualism, I don't know what else to call it, like most a lot of my career
33:04
[SPEAKER_00]: and that can go through all levels of systems, my career, my team, my organization, my country, whatever it is, it can go through that.
33:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think you're absolutely right, Joel, that we're being kind of encouraged to move beyond this world view right now.
33:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And into a more relational systemic
33:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And so paradigm, there I say, I know we have a lot of listeners that are thinking, well, yeah, but what does that mean?
33:41
[SPEAKER_00]: How do I do that?
33:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And what does that mean for me in my coaching practice?
33:48
[SPEAKER_00]: What would you say to that?
33:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you have some good questions.
33:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to bring the
33:58
[SPEAKER_02]: This is one of the things I've asked Peter a lot and learned from him a lot over the last few years because when you listen, people talk about systemic coaching.
34:08
[SPEAKER_02]: It can, if it's not, and Peter doesn't do it in this way, but if it's not carefully sounds like really complex, rational thing and it's like, well, what does that, what's the experience in that in, you know, ordinary existence?
34:20
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think,
34:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I've never really answered this course as such a brilliant question, but I think in a way, this is the paradigm shift that's like we've been in sconsed in that hyper-individuality, and it has brought some good things, but it's come at a cost and the epidemic of loneliness.
34:44
[SPEAKER_02]: isolation, we feel, and I think there's a deep movement towards embracing our interdependence and even how, you know, some people say like the relationship between things is more important than the things themselves.
34:59
[SPEAKER_02]: So now we start to get into where it gets a bit more practical, which is, in some sense, Jane, there's a deep intimacy between us right now.
35:06
[SPEAKER_02]: My identity includes you on a fundamental level, and that's inspiring.
35:14
[SPEAKER_02]: where it gets very practical is that, you know, we're always arising moment to moment in context, you know, in relationship to our environment, others around us are roles and
35:29
[SPEAKER_02]: that is an embodied vibrational experience.
35:34
[SPEAKER_02]: So as we do our deep, I'm not sure I'm answering your question, but I'm just going with it.
35:39
[SPEAKER_02]: As we do our deep in our work, which then, you know, the question is like, in our outer starts to become, it's a useful distinction on one level, but when you start to look more intimately, it's like,
35:52
[SPEAKER_02]: the world is a mirror to our experience.
35:55
[SPEAKER_02]: So we can actually do our integrative work and start to attune and open to this sense of systemic relationality and an embodied level.
36:05
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's just where we've become more powerful, powers and kind of dirty word and often people think it means power over, but yeah, there's a certain
36:19
[SPEAKER_02]: enjoyment and power and artistry of life that opens up.
36:25
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I'll stop there.
36:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if that makes sense.
36:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I never thought about the question you asked really until you asked me.
36:33
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so interesting though because I think what we're starting to point towards now is like,
36:42
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a deepening of what we were talking about earlier and this call to coaches from just working with individuals as though they're some kind of isolated entities and starting to bring in the whole context and and there I even say the collective.
37:02
[SPEAKER_00]: here.
37:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I know you said right the very beginning, coaches are not about changing the, you know, it's not for us to save the world in a way.
37:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's absolutely right on one level.
37:15
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do think there's a role for us to play here in the collective.
37:20
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's almost like a through lane.
37:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all like a portal from the individual that ripples out.
37:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I do believe that as coaches, another thing that I don't see, discuss very often is how we, through the changes that we inspire in our clients, how we actually impact things like culture, which of course is a collective sense.
37:51
[SPEAKER_00]: this, it's like, and I think I've heard you say this, coaching becomes more like a transmission on multiple levels, including a frequency of change that wants to emerge here that I'm not going to fight, I'm going to allow that into the conversation.
38:16
[SPEAKER_00]: But I wonder in your experience,
38:20
[SPEAKER_00]: How if I say it very simply the shift from the individual to collective?
38:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that something that's alive for you in your work?
38:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And if so, how does that shift the way you approach transformation?
38:38
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a beautiful question.
38:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think it's incredible too.
38:44
[SPEAKER_02]: I really enjoy being Joel for a start.
38:48
[SPEAKER_02]: So I love being me.
38:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I went down some rabbit holes, spiritual rabbit holes that kind of pointed towards like, you know, there's no self experience.
38:57
[SPEAKER_02]: The self was an illusion.
38:59
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't find that particularly fulfilling, and there's a long conversation we could have.
39:07
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I'm saying that because it's not that the sense of individuality isn't important.
39:14
[SPEAKER_02]: In another way, I'm humble about my capacity to hold the collective in my sphere of concern, you know, in ways that I've met others that do, you know, and incredibly beautiful ways.
39:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And then another way, how can we not, you know, how can we not do that?
39:41
[SPEAKER_02]: We walk around and we're touched by the people we meet and we just are, you know, and the things we see on television, which sometimes are incredibly heartbreaking and sometimes incredibly inspiring.
40:08
[SPEAKER_02]: collective intelligence or how to really have that move through my coaching, but I do find this idea of what does the world want us to explore in our conversation today.
40:23
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, want to be your Hawkins questions, very powerful.
40:26
[SPEAKER_02]: As I find it in my own life, what do you want with me?
40:30
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, as an inquiry.
40:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And I start to hang around in groups of people, like I've just come back from the circling festival, where sometimes you really start to tune into incredible experiences of a kind of collective intelligence of the group,
40:57
[SPEAKER_02]: feels like we just scratched the limit really in terms of what's possible for us.
41:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you contrast that with the polarization that's so loud right now, particularly online.
41:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
41:08
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't have a lot of clarity for you around this.
41:12
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's an important message for coaches.
41:15
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I just speak for myself recently.
41:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I fell into really embracing being confused.
41:25
[UNKNOWN]: Right.
41:25
[SPEAKER_02]: and not even killed.
41:28
[SPEAKER_02]: I saw how some of these things are whole deer, like being co-heared, being present, landing in a certain kind of clarity, are beautiful things, but it also become limits to the next phase of my unfolding.
41:44
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah.
41:48
[SPEAKER_00]: That feels really important what you've just said,
41:53
[SPEAKER_00]: This an insight landing for me at the moment, which I don't think I've ever thought of it in this way before.
41:59
[SPEAKER_00]: But it feels like when you just express that, that being uncertain, being confused, being out of kilta,
42:11
[SPEAKER_00]: is somehow not okay.
42:14
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, it's like culturally we've made it wrong and we've put clarity and you know performance and all these other things on a pedestal.
42:25
[SPEAKER_00]: But of course it's in what we're speaking to it's, it's the portal surely because unless you can stay with
42:41
[SPEAKER_00]: That?
42:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how you can truly expand the possibilities available to you.
42:52
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel the invitation of that.
42:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
42:57
[SPEAKER_02]: in your being right now, and it's beautiful, and particularly in the coaching industry.
43:03
[SPEAKER_02]: For me, as a coach, it can really feel like I need to be really on it to help my clients.
43:11
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's a truth that if we're living in our impeccability and our integration, we
43:26
[SPEAKER_02]: giving lip sync to being in the unknown, which I've talked about a lot in my life, and actually feeling the deep terror even that can arise when I'm like what that actually means to let go of certain structures and leaves to love that part of me that was very
43:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we could do with, like, transformation can be devastating.
44:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
44:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And I didn't always honor that when I was younger.
44:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
44:13
[SPEAKER_02]: So I had a certain hubris, a certain kind of, yeah, young, bravado about it all.
44:25
[SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting you say that, because when I look back on my life and the thresholds of change and transformation I've been through, some of the biggest and most potent changes of comfort trauma, they've come from not knowing they've come from
44:46
[SPEAKER_00]: being in a space where I had no idea what was going to happen next.
44:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It was almost like I lost my identity, I lost the world and relationships, everything because I was actually terminally at one point and it's like I was literally sent home to die and that went on for three years and in that
45:11
[SPEAKER_00]: cocoon in that it felt looking back, it felt like a chrysalis, but I thought I was dying like literally.
45:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's interesting that you speak to that, because again,
45:26
[SPEAKER_00]: all the researchers, humans don't really like change, and here we are as coaches, you know, trying to sell it and stuff.
45:35
[SPEAKER_00]: But again, we don't speak to that, and to me what we're starting to touch on now, Joel, feels like the difference between certification for coaches and initiation.
45:50
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what it feels like it's like can we be with ourselves in the darkest of times?
45:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Therefore, can we be with others in that space and can we also be in relationship with the collective, with everything that's going on right now, throughout humanity?
46:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And for some reason, that feels part of the call for me.
46:16
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to put words in your mouth and
46:27
[SPEAKER_02]: from certification to initiation was something I felt very strongly arising as well.
46:34
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's when someone introduced me and then you were using that phrase, I think.
46:38
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, wow, in a way it's shocking but in another way it's not because I think that's an example of the way that intelligence can erupt through multiple places.
46:56
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's a lot of good work can be done in a kind of first phase of transformation, which can be about building authenticity and success in maybe more traditional ways.
47:11
[SPEAKER_02]: But then I think we're talking about something different here, and I was thinking about death, you know, it's feeling that it seems to be such a core part of this, and
47:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I had a couple of phases, one few years ago of like severe spiritual crisis, like Dark Knight of the Soul, was people use that phrase, like then they had a bad day or something, who's like, you know, but now this was like weeks of desolation and, um,
47:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's like you having your heart broken open and a lot of those like this is where I get back to those projections about what life was meant to be kind of stripped away and it's devastating and there's something about that suffering that is full of formative and can bring about a kind of abandonment, you know, of like a wildness and a, I mean,
48:08
[SPEAKER_02]: The poignancy of life sometimes is just breathtaking.
48:13
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, my daughter, she's six.
48:15
[SPEAKER_02]: And every day I feel this sense of poignancy of grief and utter love as she changes every day.
48:23
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like I want to fix her, but I can't.
48:26
[SPEAKER_02]: It's such a great metaphor for life, you know?
48:28
[SPEAKER_02]: But if we try and hold on.
48:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
48:31
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'd love to be in that shared space,
48:39
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just singing wildly and sharing in our love, you know?
48:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
48:47
[SPEAKER_00]: It's funny the next question that was arising was about, I was going to say, what do you see our role then as coaches?
48:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And as I said it, what came up was, nobody's not the role.
48:59
[SPEAKER_00]: He said it's the soul of what's being asked to emerge through us.
49:11
[SPEAKER_00]: a collective call to the industry.
49:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this, I would even go so far, to say, is I feel this
49:26
[SPEAKER_00]: We're being asked to devote ourselves to something.
49:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't fully articulate what it is, but I have an intuitive sense of us.
49:35
[SPEAKER_00]: That feels different to just this is who I am, and this is my identity, this is my brand, and this is what I do.
49:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It feels sacred, it feels devotional, feels reverent in some way.
49:50
[SPEAKER_02]: I think in a way you do, no, I mean, I don't speak for you.
49:56
[SPEAKER_02]: So you speak of it very clearly in a way, very beautiful.
49:59
[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe it's hard to put one word to it.
50:04
[SPEAKER_02]: That's, you know, to collapse it down into one thing.
50:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Do feel, and I also talk to a quiet number of well-known people in the field that there's,
50:18
[SPEAKER_02]: tricky here.
50:19
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like on the one hand, I want to say there's a way in which certification and everything we're alluding to with that can actually inhibit this evolution and take the life out of it and get stale.
50:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I also want to honour the good intentions and the good work
50:50
[SPEAKER_02]: humility and yet at the paradox of humble and sold giving service.
50:56
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't really know.
50:57
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that maybe this is it, Jane.
50:59
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like maybe we're feeling that sense of like it hasn't co-heared yet.
51:03
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't really know what it is, but we know what we want to let go of and we know that it's about something more than how we've defined what successes in the world and what it means to
51:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm going to say something now and even as I'm thinking it in my head, it feels like a box that's too small for what I feel this is.
51:29
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do see the future of coaching being vibrational.
51:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I see it as frequency.
51:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I see it as multidomensional.
51:39
[SPEAKER_00]: But I also wonder about, and I've also said this in the leadership space, so I'll say coaches and leaders.
51:47
[SPEAKER_00]: But I see coaches as leaders, as leaders have changed.
51:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Like coaches and leaders as channels, rather than...
51:57
[SPEAKER_00]: What you said about certification to initiation, I think is really, I think that's the journey.
52:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I think in the beginning, we do need those bodies of work, we do need the certifications, we do need to understand the structures and the way things work.
52:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Here in the physical plane, but I think then.
52:16
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a maturity and a transcendence, I mean, I don't know whether I'd say on the path to mastery, that's something that maybe people would understand, if I say it that way, but it feels like then you transcend because you have the structures to be able to,
52:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess have the insights to move beyond.
52:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And I love that word beyond.
52:41
[SPEAKER_00]: It feels so invitational to me, like beyond coaching.
52:49
[SPEAKER_00]: What's there?
52:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, it's also making me wonder, Joel, when you think about your work in the world and you think about the world that we're living in and this call that we've spoken to.
53:05
[SPEAKER_00]: What would you say your work is in service of maybe your life, what's your life in service of?
53:15
[SPEAKER_02]: At the moment, the way I would articulate that is it's in service of the expression of truth, beauty and goodness, of a liveness, beauty in the world of expression.
53:33
[SPEAKER_02]: No, the experience is much more palpable than trying to put the words to it, but it's that moment of like, just this, this is it.
53:45
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you're right.
53:46
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the future of coaching is vibrational and we are being invited to be channels since that's important to me, that path of practice.
54:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm noticing the time, so I just want to ask you one final question, really.
54:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe there's something you would like to have shared in this conversation, maybe we haven't got to it.
54:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Or maybe there's just some words of wisdom you'd like to leave our listeners with, what might it be?
54:30
[SPEAKER_02]: a quote from Andor, so it's recent series on Disney plus beautiful.
54:37
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the characters says, I burn my life for a sunrise I'll never see.
54:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And
54:44
[SPEAKER_02]: But first that sounds kind of very like a martyr, you know, but he saw alive when he shares it and we're bathing in the summarizes that other people have burned their lives for and that's what Joanna Macy was shining, that was what she was transmitting when she said it.
55:00
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like burning our lives for a sunrise will never see as a holy meaningful and
55:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I love it.
55:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for bringing us full circle back in.
55:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh gosh, Joel, I don't have words to this conversation today.
55:23
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just such a delight to be in your presence and just to experience what I managed through us.
55:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much, my friend.
55:33
[SPEAKER_02]: You're an exquisite spaceholder.
55:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I love the depth of your soul and your passion, James.
55:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Beautiful.
55:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
55:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Here we are, we're at the end of the podcast.
55:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Just do a heads up again.
55:47
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're not on our mailing list and you want to stay in the loop about other things we create, then head to coachesrising.com.
55:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Put your name in the sign-up box there.
55:55
[SPEAKER_02]: You'll also find some of our other offerings online trainings for coaches there.
56:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And just want to end by wishing you well, and I'll see you again next time.