Latest / INSPIRE STORY / #0230_ STORY INSPIRE: Nathan Apffel — Inside the Dark World of Megachurches: Corrupt Pastors, Power & Hidden Scandals

Transcript

#0230_ STORY INSPIRE: Nathan Apffel — Inside the Dark World of Megachurches: Corrupt Pastors, Power & Hidden Scandals · INSPIRE STORY

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Nathan Apfel. Nice to meet you. Welcome to the show.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: You're welcome. You're welcome. So I'm very nervous about this interview,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: by the way, but I think it's important. But, you know,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: I'm nervous about it because we're going to expose a
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: lot of corruption within the churches. And, you know, my
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: fear is I never want to I prayed about this,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: I've thought a lot about it, and I don't want
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: to drive anybody away from Christianity because of what's about
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: to be revealed. And so this was a big decision
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: for me to do this. And I'm curious, before we
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: dive too far into it, I mean, do you feel
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: like that's happening? Do you feel like you're driving people
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: away from Christianity by exposing this stuff? No.
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: No?
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Quite the opposite. I get to present, which I hope
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: to do today, the authentic Christ. And if you're a Christian,
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Christ is the head of the church, your savior. I
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: get to present the authentic Christ, I'll say unencumbered and
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: pulled away from the machine that we have built on
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: top of Christ's message. They're two completely different things. So
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: I'm here today to separate the two. One is the
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: head of accountability, which is Christ, and then one needs
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: to be held accountable. So that's what I'm here to
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: discuss today.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay. I mean, what kind of response are you
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: getting from the documentary and all the stuff that you
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: are exposing?
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: Lots.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, what kind of responses?
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Well, it's bifurcated right down the middle. Everybody who has
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: the marbles to watch the show, every Christian that is...
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: I'll say humble enough and interested in taking a hard
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: look at the system, once they watch it, they message
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: us through DMs or they'll see me in an airport
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: or whatever and they just come up and give me
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: a bear hug. Because I think what we've hit is
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: a cultural vein that most people just can't explain or articulate,
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: but they know there's something wrong in the system. And
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: then the system, is cloaked in the concept of Christ
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: as our Savior, salvation, and generosity and love. And so
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: it's the perfect mask for abusing people. And not only
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: abusing people, but abusing people at their most vulnerable state,
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: which is, I am here to explore my faith and
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: my salvation and my brokenness. And when you meet someone
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: in that spot, there are wolves that will feed. And
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Christ speaks heavily on this in the Bible. I'll preface
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: this right now. We are here to do two things,
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: encourage your faith and encourage your generosity. And outside of that,
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: everything's fair game.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: You know, the words that come to my mind is trust,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: but verify. Yeah. Trust, but verify. And, you know, I
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: know what you're saying. I mean, what you are about
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: to talk about is going to destroy maybe a little strong,
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: but it, I mean, people put a lot of faith
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: into their, these organizations. And, you know, when you, I mean, look,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: we saw this in the medical community with COVID, right?
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: Everybody puts so much trust into the medical institutions that they, that, that,
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: that when it came out, that maybe this isn't exactly
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: how it was portrayed to be, you know, it, it,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: it blew the doors off and created a tremendous amount
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: of distrust. And, And there was, you know, there's a
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: large number of people that they just couldn't... Everything they
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: know has been destroyed. You know what I mean? That
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: in a system that they have believed in for years,
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: especially the baby boomer generation, right? And so I think that,
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: you know, the impact of what this is is along
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: those same lines where it's, you know, people grew up as,
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, they grew up from you know, infant to
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: whatever age they are now and in, in particular churches
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: and organizations and, and to see like the dirty side
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: of what's going on in some of these organizations is gonna,
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: it's gonna be a hard watch.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, we're born and raised in the systems and
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: then we, we have our biased lens of reality, right?
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: If I go to a mega church in Los Angeles or,
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: or Dallas or New York or wherever, that is church
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: to me. If I'm, raised in the backwoods of Mississippi,
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: that small struggling rural church is church to me. If
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: I go to the LDS church, this temple is church
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: to me. And so we start the show off with
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: what is church, because those aren't the biblical form of church.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: Those are just culture, right? It's what wherever I'm born
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: and raised or whatever, you know, group I'm raised in
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: or ethnic group or whatever, or political group, that just
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: shapes and molds what I think is truth and reality,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: but that's not necessarily truth and reality. And so you
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: have to take a slice of humble pie. And I
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: had to do this. And I firmly believe the way
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: God did it, because he knew I wouldn't do it,
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: is he just broke me over and over and over
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: again until he's like, you want me to get, you
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: want to get kicked again? You know? And I said, no.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: And then he goes, okay, let's rebuild it. And so
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: then he rebuilt me with this new unbiased lens. And
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: when you look at the biblical definition of church, which
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: is ecclesia, it's literally a gathering of people. That is
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: the body of Christ. It's just the people. And then
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: Christ is the head of that gathering. Everything outside of that,
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: everything layered on top of that, whether that be your
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: theology on giving, whether that be the building, the stages,
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: that is all just tradition of you and I. And
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: so that is what we look at is we need
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: to dissect that. And in the religion business, we go
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: straight down to the foundation of it, which is the
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: IRS tax code in the US.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: So before we get started here, I'm curious, are you
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: against all churches?
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: What's a church?
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: And I'm asking you this question.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about the modern day.
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: So the institution.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: The institution.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: And I'm going to be very clear. That is a corporation.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: They file corporate documents with the state. That is a business.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: So the church can use that business, but it's not
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: the church, right? It's got money coming in and money
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: going out. So that system that we've built, the building,
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: the stage, the parking lots, the lights, the fog machines,
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: the childcare, the coffee and donuts, that is not in
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: and of itself bad. but that is not the church.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: And so I always ask people, do you go to church?
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: And they say, yes. And I go, no, you are
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: the church. And that is a place where the church
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: can meet up, but that is not the church. And
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: so you have to separate the two because one of
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: the two will both have to be held accountable. The
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: body of Christ needs to be held accountable to Christ,
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: but then the body needs to regulate the business. And
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: right now we've muddied the two. I call it an infection.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: And so it's an infection that no one has any
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: clear definitions anymore. And where there's disease or infection, abuse grows.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: You know, bad things happen. And so right now we're
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: just at a tipping point where too many bad things
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: are happening in the system that most people go, something's
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: wrong and I can't articulate it. So what do they do?
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: They just up and leave and say, I'm not a
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: Christian anymore. I'm over religion. When I don't think you're
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: over Christ, I think you're over the system we've built
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: on top of him.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I mean, it's essentially what? An indoctrination, right?
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: And so, but I do, you know, regardless of all
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: of the, you know, misuse of the money that's going on,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: there is, in my opinion, there is still good. And
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: I want to hear about all this stuff. I just
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: want to be careful. You know what I mean? And
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: like I said, it's all about him up there, right?
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: And so when I was thinking about this interview, it's,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: am I going to drive people away? Because me as
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: a baby Christian, I don't know much. I have had
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: a lot of talks about what the church actually is,
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: which you just described perfectly. And I do 100% agree
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: with that. With that being said, what my fear is,
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: as I mean, me as a baby Christian and other
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: baby Christians that, you know, that I have influenced or
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: that I've spoken to, you know, in our journeys, a
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: lot of the people that come on the show wind
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: up coming to the Lord. And what does everybody do,
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: you know, that's a baby Christian, including myself? Now, I
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: didn't like the experience. And so we do a Bible
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: study at my house and that is church to me,
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: where we can ask any questions without fear. You know,
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, like, You can ask the tough questions
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: that you'll get the stink eye in a church or,
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: as you call it, an institution or corporation. And so
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: basically what I'm getting at is baby Christians, I mean,
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: where do we go to learn? We go to the
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: church because that's what we're indoctrinated into thinking. You know
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: what I mean? And so if we blast you know,
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: the institution, the corporation that calls himself the church, you know,
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: are we turning off a funnel of people to become
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: educated in what this is really all about? That is
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: my fear. And so I'm wondering, you know, that's just
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: what I want to ask you is, you know, do
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: you think that you've had an impact that have kept
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: people from educating themselves on this because, I mean, that's
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: something I would have taken in and I'd be like,
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: you know what, man, fuck this. I'm not going, I'm
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: not doing that. I'm not going to be a part
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: of this. This whole thing's a scam. Like it could
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: have tilted me the other way, I guess is what
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: I'm saying. And we do see this massive wave of
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: revival and Christianity across the globe. And I mean, I
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: see it almost every day. you know, more and more
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: people are coming. And I think that's a good thing.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: You know, I think that's a good thing.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: 100%, yeah.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: So I just want to be very, you know, careful
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: not to turn people.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: Off from that.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: I get that.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: That's definitely not our goal. You said something, you said,
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm a baby Christian. If you're holding a
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: Bible study at your house, I don't think you're a
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: baby Christian. I think you cut right through the bull
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: and you like hit that bullseye on the board. You
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: might be three feet from the board right now, and
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: eventually you want to get eight feet from it, so
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: to speak, but you're on the bullseye. Can I give
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: you something?
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, of course.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: This Bible is a gift.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Oh, whoa.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: It's printed in 1660.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: 1660?
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: That's a King James, and it doesn't come in one Bible.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: It comes in two because it's so big. But you
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: said something, and so this Bible is... 49 years, printed
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: 49 years after the first print of the King James
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: in England.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: Whoa. It's a gift for you.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: It's got the Apocrypha in.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: It.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: It has massive wood carvings of Jerusalem and of the
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: Levites prepping the tithes, ironically. But this is what people
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: need to read. They need to read the scriptures, nothing else.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: And so this.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: Is where you've one of the two places we find
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: God is in the scriptures and in prayer. And if
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: you're doing those two things, you're far ahead of anybody
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: of 99% of Christians.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: So this Bible was printed in 1660.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: Man, I don't even know what this, this is wow.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: Thank you. That's used in the religion business.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: We, we printed or we scanned, some of the wood
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: carvings to tell the story. So that Bible is older
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: than America.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: Wow. Are you serious?
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. That's a gift from Chris and I,
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: my business partner and I.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: It's like the coolest thing anybody's ever given me. Thank you.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: That's humanity's history. And so if you have a way
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: to see the world and you explore your faith and
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: why we're here And why I have consciousness and why
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: I put value in your life and in my daughter's life,
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: as opposed to just being animal, that book tells the
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: story in one of the most profound ways that's radically
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: shaped the world. It's shaped everybody's life on earth. And
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: so Chris and I thought, what better gift than a
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: piece of history?
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: This is amazing. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: You're welcome. And so I say, I give that to
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: you right now because you said you don't want people
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: to turn off from Christianity, but those scriptures are all
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: you need. And then you can connect directly with God,
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: our creator. And Jesus says, pray and I'll show up
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: where two or more gathered in my name, I'll be there.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: And that is the true church. Everything else is just
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: culture and tradition.
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank, this is, You're welcome. This is incredible.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: Well, when I saw the new set, I was like,
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: it'd be really cool if he had a cool Bible
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: sitting somewhere.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: We got a bunch of Bibles.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: Oh, there we go.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: And I might, I might, these might, I think these
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: are coming home with me.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: There you go.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: So I can dig in.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's what everything's, well, everything's based off Christ and
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: that book, that collection of scriptures has radically transformed the world.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: And the problem is very few Christians go back to
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: that anymore. We, Dan Bramer in the religion business says,
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: we put faith in our faith in God, but not
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: in the God of our faith. Because if you put
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: faith in your faith, you're putting faith in the institution.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: This is what I'm used to. This is what I
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: was raised in. It's safe. It'll raise my children in
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: the way I want them to be raised. But that's
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: not what God said. Like, so we have to put
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: our faith in the creator and in the God of
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: our faith. And as soon as you do that, things
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: get very dangerous. because it means I am no longer
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: in control of anything. And if I firmly believe in
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: this creator who's whispering in my ear and guiding me,
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to do what he says. Whether that
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: be pouring everything you have into a show 15 years
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: of your life, whether that be making a ton of
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: money and be like, man, you've blessed me. And then
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: him saying, dude, you're gonna risk it all right now.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: Or hey, like my brother was a sniper You know,
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: don't pull the trigger or pull the trigger. You know,
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: you're starting to listen and that's a dangerous position to
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: be in because you are now a danger to government.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: You're a danger to institutions because you no longer are
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: appeasing them. You're appeasing God, whether that be Christianity or
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: Islam or Buddhism or Hinduism. The God of your faith
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: is a dangerous God. And so the God of that
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: Bible is a dangerous God. Wow.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: That's a good way to put it. Thank you. Everybody
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: starts off with an introduction. You ready? Yep. Nathan Apfel,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: filmmaker and world traveler who turned a traumatic brain injury
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: at 16 into a 20-year odyssey of documenting stories that
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: make audiences question everything. Creator of The Religion Business, a
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: seven-part docuseries revealing the trillion-dollar machine behind Christian institutions. On
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: a mission to shine a light on the business of religion,
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: And most importantly, you yourself are a Christian. So how
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: did this, actually a couple of things, a couple of
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: things we've got to get through here. So I got
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: a Patreon account. We've turned it into community and they've
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: been here with me since a lot of them have
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: been here since the beginning. And so one of the
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: things that we do is we offer them the opportunity
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: to ask each and every guest a question. So this
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: is from Eric Auger. Do you feel a filmmaker's responsibility
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: ends at exposing problems, or can it include building tools
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: that create change? And from your perspective, do megachurches and
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: the Catholic Church struggle with the same accountability issues, or
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: are they worlds apart?
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: So let's talk about the problem. A filmmaker is here
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: to do what they want, right? That is, they're here
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: to make a film. Some just expose problems. but that's
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: not what we were here to do with the religion business.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: And we'll get into why I feel God led me
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: down this course that he did. And he put some
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: big milestones in my life and tribulation in my life
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: to guide me to this. So the docu-series presents a
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: massive problem. The reason why my business partner, Chris, came
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: on board is because we built a tech solution that's non-governmental,
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: that donors and congregants can use, that drives a stake
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: of accountability right through the whole system. And so we
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: have a problem and a solution. So we're not just
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: here to point out a problem because there's a lot of,
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater, so
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: to speak. So it's, yes, there's a massive trillion dollar
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: a year problem, but there's also solutions to that problem.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: And we just wanna be, I'll call it the first
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: to the table to say, hey, we can solve this problem.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: And it just takes creative thinking and I'll say God-inspired ideas.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so we are not here just to point
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: out a problem. We're here to bring a solution.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: You know what's interesting is, this just came to me,
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: the guy that runs my Bible study, his name's Todd,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: and he's OG, original gangster, Tennessean, and has been a preacher,
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: I think, damn near his whole life. And he got
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: ran out of the, whatever, he got ran out of
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: the circle because he was publicly saying in his ministries
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: at churches, that pastors should not be, pastors, ministers, you know,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: all these figures, should not be making any money. And
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: so he couldn't preach at any church. That's who leads
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: our Bible study. And then he just got into a
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: very small one. I think he's really happy about it.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: So he's back preaching again, but he stands for pretty
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: much exactly what I think you're about to reveal here.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: I'd like to meet Todd for sure.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: I'd love to connect you. I'd love to connect you.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: But so how did you get into this whole thing?
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: What was it?
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Into the religion business in particular.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: Into the religion. What did you start diving in? What
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: was it that caught your attention that initially grabbed you?
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: I was born and raised in large churches in California.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: Loved it. Like singing choir, you know, did the Iwana
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: side of things, was, like, the champion of the three-legged
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: race with my, you know, elementary buddy. I loved it.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: I went to every summer camp. Always got a new
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: girlfriend at summer camp. You know, it's just the youth
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: experience of modern Christianity. We moved to San Diego to
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: a little town called Carlsbad and went to a church.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: The youth pastor was awesome, super outspoken, gregarious, loud. He
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: became the high school pastor. So with his kind of
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: moving up the ladder, I was aging. And so he
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: was always my pastor. When I was 16, I had
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: a brain injury. We'd get into that a little later.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: But that's what got me into filmmaking. And then in
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: my 20s, I started traveling the world. I worked for Oakley,
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: the sunglass company, and Burton Snowboards. And I would just
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: travel the world working on surf movies, you know, snowboard
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: ski movies, you name it. A mentor of mine, Ira Opper,
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: hired me and I've worked with him for almost 20
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: years now. This old legend from North County and... And
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: we would just travel the world together. And everywhere I'd go,
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: I just want to visit churches. And then my dad
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: was running a nonprofit and he just likes adventure, you know?
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: And so most of his nonprofit work was done in
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: the rural mountain regions of Central and South America. And
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: so I would shoot for him. I'd go out and
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: film for him. And, you know, we'd be hanging out
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: with literal drug runners in the middle of the Honduran
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: jungles where you got to take dugout canoes to get
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: there and sleep on the ground and no electricity. It was,
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: I like live for that. And so I had about
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: a decade of that where I was in the favelas
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: in Brazil, so the poorest slums of Brazil, and in
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: the backwoods, literal pine woods in Honduras, hanging out with
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: drug runners. And you'd end up in these tin roof
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: churches with no walls and dirt floors. And then these
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: seminaries in Brazil that never took a dollar. There was
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: no focus on money ever. It was just, how do
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: we connect with our creator? And man, I have usually
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: physical needs, either my daughter or son is dying or
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: my husband just died or, you know, like destitute individuals
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: looking for purpose. And so I just fell in love
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: with these types of churches and seminaries. And so for
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: 10 years, I believe God gave me breadcrumbs and I
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: just traveled the world. And I'd sit with the, like,
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: there's one story in particular where I was in Mexico
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: sitting at a convent and the train that runs from
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: the border to U.S., is called El Tigre and MS-13
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: runs it. And anybody from Central America would climb on
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: top that wanna get to the US border. And MS-13
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: is raping kids, raping women, throwing women with new babies
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: off if they wouldn't let them have sex, they just
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: chuck the baby off, kill people and there was fees.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: And so I've talked to one girl who brought her
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: cousin along and she gave her cousin his payment to
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: get her to the border. And so we were at
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: this convent and the convent, Catholic convent, will take anybody in,
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: whether that be Traveler or MS-13, anybody who's hurting. And
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: so this is when I was like 22. I was
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: shooting interviews and I had a translator and I was
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: sitting there with this MS-13 member. And he goes, Nathan,
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: the one thing I wanna tell you is you're 10
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: steps away from murder. And I was like, what do
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: you mean? And he goes, you will kill someone with
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: 10 bad decisions. And he goes, I was raised on
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: the streets in Hungary. MS-13 took me in and he
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: walked me through his life. And he goes, you are
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: 10 steps away from murdering someone, 10 bad decisions. And
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: that like radically transformed how I look at whether that
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: be sinners or, you know, anybody I meet on this journey.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: And I'd rather sit with them because I know them.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: And so I came back, they're being honest with me, right?
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you're gonna kill me. Like if you're threatening
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: to kill me, you're probably gonna kill me. But a
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: pastor in the US might smile at me as they're
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: completely abusing the system, if that makes sense. And so
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: I always say, because I shot on Warped Tour too,
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: so I would shoot music videos on Warped Tour. And
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I'd rather hang out with the punk rock
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: guys who are doing drugs and just doing whatever they want,
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: because that's what they sing about. But then I go
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: into country music or into Christian music and they sing
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: about the greatest things. And then they're just complete POSs
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: behind the scene. And so I'm like, I was just
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: searching for truth. And I found God in these seminaries
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: and churches in the slums. And then I'd come back
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: to the US and I'd stand in this $ 30 million
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: a year church. And I'm like, you're not doing anything
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: for your community, but you did build that new arena.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: You did buy that new sound system. And then at
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: that same time, so everything's coming to a head and
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: I'm getting frustrated. Two other things are happening in my life.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: That youth pastor I told you about was arrested for
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: essaying his adopted children. He's still in- Say that again.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: The youth pastor that raised me, that I was mentoring me,
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: sexually abused his adopted children for years. And so that
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: news comes out and he was being trained to take
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: over this mega church at this point. And so he's
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: in jail to this day. And I'm sitting here going,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: how is this pervert able to sit around children his
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: whole life? And we can, parents can look at this
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: and be like, he's a pastor. They're safe with him.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: And he's sexually abusing his adopted children from Africa. And
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: so that happens, my world travels are happening. And then
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: my brother-in-law, the only pastor who would ever listen to
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: my questions about like, how does this system work? Like,
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: why does everybody say you get double honor? Why does
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: everybody say you have the hardest job? And these are
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: juvenile questions. You know, I'm like 20. He's the only guy,
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: he's about 10 years older than me, the only paid
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: pastor that would field any of my questions. And he's
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: a full-time pastor getting paid. he has a disease called Huntington.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: So it's a super rare genetic disease. And he's pretty
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: far along now. But he was the one guy in
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: the system who would like listen. And so he'd come
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: over and we'd sit and we'd drink whiskey on my
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: little deck and we would just talk theology for hours.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: And a couple of years pass and he calls me.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: He's like, hey, I finally understand what you mean. And
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: I'm like, well, what do you mean? He goes, I
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: quit my job today. And he's like, I got a
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: job at Trader Joe's. And he goes, I preached my
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: last sermon because I went back through Paul's letters and
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: I get it. Like he preached unencumbered of needing anything
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: from the people he preached to because he wanted to
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: present Christ as Christ alone with no institution or no
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: demand behind him. So the one guy who inspired, really
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: inspired this whole journey, and this is the fucked up
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: part of it, like he lost both his parents young,
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: like this guy had, everything to be angry about. And instead,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: the one thing he wanted to present to the world
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: was Christ. And I'm like, that's a man of God.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: And he's dying today, almost on his deathbed. And it's like,
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: how did that guy get painted with so much baggage
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: and crap? And then a person like me, who literally
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: is just a train wreck wanting to kind of go
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: out with a bang, God's for some reason keeping his
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: hand over me. And so all these three storylines and
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: experiences collided at once. And so at 25, I bought
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: the religion business. So 16 years ago, I bought the domain.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, maybe I'll write a book one day.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm going to do with it.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: But that was the catalyst. And that's where I tasted
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: righteous anger for the first time, not only for the institution,
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: but for God. I was like, why would you take
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: so much from this guy who just gives to everybody?
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: And that was the catalyst for the religion business. Wow.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: Man, so the whole world got flipped upside down when
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: the pastor that mentored you got picked up for sexual trauma.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: That was more just like, I knew it. You knew it? Well, no,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: I'm saying like, the good guys, the guys that look
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: the best, the Bible talks about the Pharisees walking around
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: in long robes and wanting the respectful greetings in the marketplaces.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: They come dressed as sheep, but inside they're ravenous wolves.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: It's like, of course, the one person that everybody thought
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: was this man of God is this ravenous wolf and
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: he's making good money. He is the picturesque ideal of
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: the modern American pastor. And then the one who's being
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: shunned and eventually just leaves the system, sounds like Todd
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: a little bit, like gets a literal death sentence. And
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: yet he smiles in the face of death. And I
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: don't know, it's a fascinating world.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, let me ask you this. Are you against pastors, ministers,
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: any religious figures? Are you against them making money?
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: I'm going to set the show aside for now. I
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: don't think anybody can take money, especially over a career,
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: from this system and not get eaten by it. And
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: those aren't my words. Those are men and women that
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: have spent their entire life in ministry or at a
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: church and having discussions for years with them. And they're like,
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: no one gets away from it.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? Nobody gets away from what?
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: From getting eaten by the machine.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: So this is like, this is very similar to politics.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: Come in with great intentions and then you're corrupted.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: Yes. And here's why. or I'll give you my thought.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: I'm a young pastor or Sean's a young man ready
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: to spread the gospel. He's been indoctrinated. I'll use your
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: word into the system. He's been to seminary. He wants
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: to quote unquote, save souls. And so he's, what's the
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: first thing he's going to do? He's going to look
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: for a job. He's going to get that job. And
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: as soon as he starts preaching, he's going to tell
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: about and how Christ does save you, how Christ is
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: the person you should mirror. You know, I wanna die
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: in me so Christ lives through me. Like those are
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: all good things. But then guess what? Hey, Sean, your business,
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: this institution, the corporation might cost, let's go small, a
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: hundred grand a month to keep this thing operational. Okay, well,
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: where are we gonna get that money? Well, you're gonna
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: look through scriptures and go, okay, well, right now in culture,
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: we've landed on the Levitical tithe. And so we go, man,
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: this tithe is where we're going to get our money.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: We want 10% or we need 10%. And then you're
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: going to keep preaching and, okay, Sean, I need you
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: to preach one message on tithing every eight weeks.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: I just learned this tithing today. I had no idea
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: that this was a thing. So what is tithing?
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: Let's get in. I want to give this model if
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: you don't mind.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Okay, sorry.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: So one out of eight weeks, you're going to do
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: a sermon on giving, we'll call it. Generous giving and tithing.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Whether that be the pastors either preach on tithing or
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: generous giving. Those are the two ways you can ask
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: people for money. And so one out of eight weeks,
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: your message is on tithing. Well, shoot, Sean, our church
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: is growing. Now our budget's 200 grand. We have about
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: 350 people that show up every Sunday. We've got a
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: little day school. So we've got to start asking for
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: more money. Okay, we're going to preach two out of
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: eight weeks. Well, shoot, Nathan's church down the street just
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: got a better soundstage than us. And he's gonna start
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: pulling congregants. So in the show, we call this religious
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: economic theory. So Nathan's church is gonna pull your congregants
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: away because they are literal consumers. And so you're gonna
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: need the same soundstage I have. Okay, well, that's gonna
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: cost us an extra 150 grand. So we're gonna request
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: money above and beyond. So now on the third Sunday
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: of that eight-week block, we're gonna give a sermon, but
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: then the last five minutes, we're gonna present why we
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: need this new soundstage. And so your whole presentation of
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: the gospel slowly tilts to protect the institution and the
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: revenues it needs to survive. And no matter what, this
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: is my conclusion, every pastor that plays in that game
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: dies to the game. And that's why pastors rightly say,
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: pastoring is the hardest job in the world, we all
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: leave demoralized, and you do. But it's not your fault necessarily,
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: but you've been eaten by a machine that we've built
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: on top of Christ.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Summer's here, and if you're anything like me, you didn't
• 32:33
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• 32:40
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  Speaker 1: to what you're saying. Back to the original question. I'm
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: not attacking you. I just want to know how you think.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: I think, Paul, you should have a job outside of
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: your ministry.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: Okay. But what if somebody wants to devote all of
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: their time to this, every bit of it? And there
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: is overhead. I mean, you know, and I'm not... I
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: don't think it's necessary. I don't think it's a bad
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: thing either. You know what I mean? When these churches
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: grow and they want to expand an online presence, well,
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: then they've got to get people to know audio-video. They've
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: got to have people to set that up. They have
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: to have people that operate that equipment. I think it's
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: a good thing you go into some of these places
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: and they have coffee and donuts and bagels and shit
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: like that. Is it? I don't think it's a bad thing.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: It's not necessarily a bad thing. I think it is
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: a good thing that people congregate together in the name.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: And I think people want to be comfortable when they worship.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: They want air conditioning. They want bathrooms. I have toddlers.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: Very challenging to take toddlers to church and actually pay attention.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: And so the place that we were going to had
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: little daycare things. put them in there. Then we see
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: active shooters. All of them in the Catholic Church just
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: got shot up yesterday. You know, all those little kids
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: were fucking killed. Now you need security because we have
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: a big, a mass of people that are together and
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: that's what active shooters look at. They want to take
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: the most amount of people out as possible in the
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: shortest amount of time to get the biggest headline. You know,
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: so now you have a security element that you have
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: to hire. You know, and more and more people are
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: demanding that and people want their kids to go to
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: a Christian school or a Catholic school or, you know
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: what I mean? And so then you got to hire
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: teachers and all that stuff. And so I'm curious, I mean,
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: do you think these things are bad? All of them?
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: I think they run antithetical to the message of Christ.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: Christ said to pick up your cross and follow me
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: and make disciples of men. He did not say to
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: build And I'm not saying that's necessarily bad, but everything
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: you just described is just men building things. And so
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: let's go down a rabbit hole here for a second
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: about ministry. When you look at biblical ministry. Today, if
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: I want to get in the ministry, I'm going to
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: go get a job at a church. My ministry is
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: my daughter. My ministry is to raise her under God.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: Christ-centered principles, and I will never abdicate that to anyone else.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: Because I don't know what they're teaching her. I don't
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: know if it's even biblically sound. And so when you
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: look at the institution, it's not necessarily bad, but Christ
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: never told us to build any of it. You and I,
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: I firmly believe, I believe Christ is in this room.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: I believe you and I are connecting as brothers in Christ.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: That is the church. We are meant to uplift our ministry,
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: which is our children, your wife, your husband, that core community,
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: that tight bond. And if that fractaled out through the U.S.,
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: the U.S. would transform overnight. But instead we say, you
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: need to come to this building to hear someone else
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: teach you about the Bible. Dude, you got a 400-year-old
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: Bible sitting there. It's we've missed the mark. We've abdicated
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: responsibility to others to teach us. And so we just
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: keep coming back to the system. I always say, man,
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: my favorite thing as a kid was to watch the
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: Christmas pageant at my church. You want to know why?
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: Because my dad was the literal freaking flying angel, you know?
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, man, there's my dad. But what have
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: we built? I don't want to be sitting in that
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: same type of auditorium watching the same Christmas pageant when
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: I'm 80 and be like, God is good. I want
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: to be doing dangerous things for Christ. And that is
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: what he's called us to do. And when you dilute
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: Christ's message down, he actually didn't talk about much outside
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: of loving one another, healing one another, preaching the gospel
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: and making disciples. Everything else. is just traditions of men.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: In Christ, this has happened in the past. The temple
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: was exactly what we see today. You go to this
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: building to worship. Now, granted, it was a legalistic structure,
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: whereas we say our churches aren't legalistic anymore. But it
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: was a legal structure, and they were making money in
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: the temple square, exchanging money. And Christ went in, and
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: he said, you've turned my father's house into a robber's den.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: That building was strictly for worship. And instead we made
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: money on it. We turned it into a capitalistic endeavor.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: And I can't read the gospels and lay that story
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: over modern day church and see any correlation in regards
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: to like what needs to change. I'm sorry, we've mirrored it.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: It's the exact, we've repeated history over and over. And
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: you as a military man and probably a historian, history
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: repeats itself over and over and over because we don't learn.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: So we're literally mirroring what's happened in the past. And
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: so it's when you read the gospels, and this is
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: what I'll tell everybody, when everybody goes, okay, what should
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: I do, Nathan? Well, you should read the Bible. Over,
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: I think it's only 13% of Christians have ever even
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: read the book. You know?
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: I haven't read it all.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: Well, it sounds like you're trying. You're going to get
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: through it though, right? And that's the thing is once
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: you read it, So there's a great study done. There's
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: a mega church in Chicago, one of the first in
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: the US, 30,000 seats, bam, massive, huge show. Every pastor goes,
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: I want to be that. And so this is in 98.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: They're expanding rapidly. Thousands of people are pouring in every Sunday.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: Tens of thousands are pouring in every Sunday. In leadership,
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: I'm going to tip my hat to them. They go, hey,
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: we're not really deepening our congregants' faith. People are coming.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: They stay for six months. They leave. It's a conveyor belt.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: And the reason why we keep our numbers is because
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: a new person just puts their butt in that seat
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: and it's just this conveyor belt. How do we retain
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: our congregants and deepen their faith? So they hired Stanford
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: and development economists at Stanford to come in and do
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: a long-term study. And we have dev economists that worked
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: on the show. These guys are brilliant, these guys and gals.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: So they do this long-term study. Their study comes back
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: with two ways that you can deepen your faith. of
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: your congregants. One, reading your Bible at home alone. Two,
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: sitting in prayer alone. That's it. So what are the buildings?
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: What are the sound stages? What are the childcare? What
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: are the coffee and donuts? What are the escalators? What
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: is that 20 acre parking lot just to get people in?
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: It's things we've built on top of Christ. Stanford came
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: back and said, these are the two things we've asked everybody.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: And so when Christ says it's written on your heart, Sean,
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: it is. I firmly believe his gospel is written on
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: every human's heart. And that book is the guide. And
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: then prayer is how you connect. And other than that,
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: everything is just fricking smoke and mirrors. You know?
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'm just... I mean, I think about,
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, everybody has to make a living and,
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: you know, somebody that's, that's new to this. And I mean,
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't understand. There's probably 10% of the
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: Bible I understand and 90% I don't understand, you know?
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: And so I need to, you know, I need to
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: look for somebody that can educate me with that being said,
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: I look for multiple, you know, I want all aspects.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: I don't want just, you know, I don't want just Todd.
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: or you or a priest to teach me about it.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: I look at it from, I wanna hear all the aspects,
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: all the different angles, I wanna understand it. And so
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: that is what draws me to, what drew me to
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: go to a church.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're wrestling with your faith, right? Yeah. But the
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: Bible says, wrestle with your faith. And so, you know
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: what I mean?
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: But I personally think that those, they should be compensated,
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: you know, because they have to make a living. And
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: if they want to dedicate their life to educating people
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: on the way Christ was, how He lived, how we're
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: supposed to live, all of that, you know, good stuff,
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: then if they want to dive in, then I think
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: that it's... I think that it is my responsibility, you know,
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: to make sure that person has a living, that can
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: take care of their family and all of these things.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: It's my personal... you know, feeling and... and I don't know,
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: maybe I'm guilty of this. It's nuanced. With this show,
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: for example, you know, this show right now, this interview
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: between me and you, I'm feeding my curiosity. I want
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: to know. I know there is a lot of corruption.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: I just learned, you know, a couple days ago that,
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: you know, the norm seems to be 10% of the
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: funds go to charity or back to the people or
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: to the poor or whatever. and 90% of it, you know,
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: goes in their pockets. I think that is a fucking travesty.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: You know, that that's happening. But, you know, so where
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: I'm going is, I mean, maybe I'm a part of this.
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've brought on, I have a lot of
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: mentors that I've brought on the show. I still explore
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: Catholicism a little bit. And I've had, you know, several
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: priests on, Father Dan, Father Gadbury, They've been instrumental in
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: guiding me. And my good friend Lee Strobel wrote the
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: case for Christ. I mean, him, John Burke wrote Imagine Heaven.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, I love these guys, you know? And I think,
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: when I talk to them, I think that, I know
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: they have a huge heart. But, you know, they wrote
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: the book. I mean, there's... Lee's latest book up there,
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: or that's the first copy of it, I'm signing it.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: You know, but I mean, he's making money off of
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: the books. I'm making money feeding my own curiosity. I'm
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: gonna make money from this show. You know what I mean?
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: Through advertising and, you know, monetization and all of that
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: kind of stuff. And so, you know, I don't... I'm
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: curious what your thoughts are. You know, when I bring
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: on Father Dan, Father Gadberry, Dr. Dan Schneider, Lee Strobel,
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: John Burke, Tim Tebow, you know, I mean, I've learned
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: a lot of stuff from these guys, you know, in
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: this room and I monetize those episodes and that's how
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: I make a living and that's how I provide for
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: my team that produces this entire thing. And so, I mean,
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: am I fucked up?
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: No, see, this thing, money is not a bad thing
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: in and of itself. So let me go back, because
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: you asked me a personal question. I do not think
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: pastors should be paid. And when you look at the
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: purest form of the gospels from Paul, and then you
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: look at the Didache, which is an early apostolic writing
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: from about 50 to 70 AD is where they pin
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: the print. Like they are very concerned, these early apostolic
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: fathers with how people are literally, they say trafficking Christ.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: And so I think in the purest form, I love
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: the gospel. I will, This morning on our Uber ride
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: to the gym, my business partner and I, we just
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: had a great conversation with the Uber driver out of nowhere.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: He was listening to our conversation and he ended up
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: giving us a book. He had them in his trunk.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: And that is church where these intimate connections happen, where
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: you raise your level of faith together. That is my
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: personal opinion. In the religion business, we do not say
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: this should happen. We don't say pastors shouldn't make money.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: We look at the system. We look at the architecture.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: I sit with theologians from all over the world, Oxford, Harvard,
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: you name it, and all of them make money off
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: their faith. And so I'm not necessarily saying you shouldn't
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: make money off of that. That's not what I'm saying.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: But there's money is such a corrupting factor in a
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: lot of things. And so that's why in the beginning,
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: you have to separate what is the biblical church and
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: what have we built. What we've built is not necessarily
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: a bad thing, but it has to be regulated. And
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: in the show, in the religion business, we show massive
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: loopholes in the system that are created because of the
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: legal architecture. And now the system is so corrupted that
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: Phil Hackney, who oversaw the nonprofit sector at the IRS
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: for five years said, the whole thing's about the buckle.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: And David E. Taylor got busted by the FBI yesterday.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: You know, it's- Is this the guy in Dallas?
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: He's in Houston.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: Houston.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: What happened there?
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: What's up?
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: I'll let you finish.
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm just saying the whole system is corrupting
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: and it's because of the religious economic theory. We're pitting
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: churches against each other, vying for consumers, with no external accountability,
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: and it just creates the Wild West, and anything goes
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: in the name of Jesus. And Dan Bramer, who's one
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: of the smartest men I've ever sat with, philosopher and theologian,
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: he goes, no one believes something that's stupid, Nathan. And
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: so Kenneth Copeland, who his boys waved their guns and
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: their fake badges at me. He believes what he's doing
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: and he believes he is spreading the gospel. Joel Osteen
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: believes it. Ed Young, who had me arrested and roughed up,
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: believes it. My brother-in-law, who's dying, believes it. And so
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: I don't blame any of these guys. And the system, yes,
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: we live in a capitalist society where things cost money,
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: but we have to be able to separate the church
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: from the building, the true church, the ecclesia, and say,
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: this needs to be regulated. And right now it's unregulated
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: in the name of separation of church and state.
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: What happened in Houston? Because this was yesterday.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: Yesterday. Yeah. So there's an apostle named David E. Taylor, loud,
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: outgoing guy. He says that if you talk negatively against him,
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: God's going to kill you. He's that type of preacher.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: and he preys off the most vulnerable. He's raised 50
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: million bucks in about the last decade. And because there's
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: no accountability, he can do what he wants. His home
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: in Tampa, Florida, his parsonage, so this is a home
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: paid for by donors, $ 8. 3 million, 28,000 square feet, was
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: raided by the FBI. He has about 28 million in
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: real estate. So he's taking money, from the most vulnerable
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: who Christ is there to protect, technically. And he's inuring
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: himself and just building his portfolio. He owns a Bentley,
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: rolls Royce, all in the name of Jesus. He's got
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: people working for free at call centers till 4 a.m.
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: And if they don't hit their donation quota that they
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: have to raise, they have to get on their knees
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: and beg him for forgiveness.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: Are you serious?
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all in the name of Jesus.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: Beg him for forgiveness?
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: Beg him, because he's anointed, Sean. And so the system,
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: like I said, when you take the business and the
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: true church and blend it, it's a disease. Because Christ's
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: message is antithetical to legal systems. He was like, he
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: was a counter-culturalist, you know? He didn't, like, and here's
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: what I love, because we're seeing this, we call it
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: the death rattle in the show. We're seeing this happening
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: in Washington right now. Church and state are colliding. So
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: if Christ really wanted to transform the world through politics,
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: he would have marched straight to Caesar and be like,
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: I demand a meeting with Caesar. He could care less
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: about Caesar. He said, I don't care about your politics
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: and your games. You guys deal with that. I have
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: to deal with the heart. And so we have the
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: ecclesia here, this is to deal with the heart. And
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: then we have the business. The business is not inherently bad,
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: but you have to call it a business. And right now,
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: no one calls it a business because it's been infected
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: and we call this the church. I'm going to church.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: You don't go to church. You, Sean, are the church.
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: And then whatever that is, as it morphs and changes
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: throughout the decades in history, sure, that's a place where
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: we can meet and enjoy the donuts and coffee and
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: listen to cool music. And that's not inherently bad, but
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: that is a business and oftentimes a multimillion dollar business
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: that's run with zero accountability. So you got to call
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: a spade a spade.
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: Do you have a percentage of, is this all churches
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: or is there specific ones that stick out to you?
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: Is there a happy medium?
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: All of them play by the same rule book. And
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: when you have a rule book with no accountability and
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: all the power silos at the top, Just like every
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: pastor will be eaten by the system, every institution, every
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: business will be eaten by that system. And that's why
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: reform has to happen within the business itself. And so
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: we're begging people to actually deepen their faith and deepen
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: their giving while bringing reform to the machine that we've built.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: And this isn't inherently bad. but it's corrupted and dark.
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: It's the darkest business entity you can start in the US.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: We've talked with ex-mafiosos who spent decades in prison, and
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: they say, Nathan, I wouldn't join the mafia today, I'd
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: start a church. Because it's the most dark place, it's
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: the darkest place you can play.
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: Why did this guy's 28,000 square foot home in Tampa
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: get raided by the FBI?
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: Enough people, so this is where you can finally, this
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: is the little sliver of hope is if enough people
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: complain to the IRS or the FBI, they will open
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: an investigation. And our good friends, our PIs that worked
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: on the religion business at the Trinity Foundation out of Dallas, they'd,
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: in 2018, put together a massive packet and sent it
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: to the IRS and said, hey, you guys have to
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: look at this scammer. Like he's just ripping people off.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: And this is the problem is it took six years,
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: six and a half years, for the IRS and then
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: the FBI to finally go, this is a total POS,
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: like he needs to go. But there's people who have
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: disappeared going to his church. Missing person reports. And we
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: see this across the US too. These apostles will find
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: vulnerable people, will tell them to move across the country
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: and come work for them, and eventually they disappear into
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: trafficking rings.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, do you have proof that that is the.
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: We've got missing persons reports and you just never find
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: them again. Their cars will be in parking lots.
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: I get that. I get that.
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: What I'm asking is, do you have proof that it
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: was the church that did it? I mean, we're talking
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: about vulnerable people. Those are people that are in poverty,
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: many of them addicted to drugs. You know what that
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: leads to? That leads to doom and sexual favors and
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: I'll give you drugs. Then it turns into, I'm your pimp,
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: I'll give you drugs. I mean, that could be totally
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: outside the church. I mean, there's a lot of things,
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: you know, that happen to the most vulnerable because of
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: the situations that they're in. That doesn't necessarily mean that,
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: you know, that the pastor sold them into trafficking, unless
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: you have proof. Do you have proof?
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: I don't have proof of that. Well, I'd have to
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: talk to our PIs, but you know, those are firsthand accounts.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: But I'll tell you right now, there's a church in
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: Arizona that literally has a tunnel that goes from the
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: church under the border to Mexico.
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: What? What church is that?
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: I'm not gonna say. But there is, that's how corrupt
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: some of these institutions are.
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: Why don't you wanna say?
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: Because that's for another story. We're developing that story right now.
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: But there is, you can use the name of God
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: to do horrific things, and that doesn't mean that God,
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: that God, Christ, is corrupt. It means man is leveraging
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: his name to do awful things. And we can look
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: through history on that one. And then let me rephrase
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: that too. Man can also use the name of Christ
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: to do amazing things. But right now, the architecture of
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: the system is so dark that it just creates a...
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: So there's a book called The Wisdom of Psychopaths, and
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: it talks about psychopathic tendencies. And it's a character type.
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: You know, it's a clinical diagnosis. And you can either
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: end up in jail for mass murder, or you can
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: be the CEO of some billion-dollar hedge fund. Like, there's
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: just a mental type that they classify as psychopaths. One
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: of the top five jobs for psychopaths today is clergy,
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: to become a pastor.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: Are you serious?
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: Because it's unlimited authority, or potentially unlimited authority, it's power,
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: it's dominion over people, And the character type of a
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: psychopath is attracted to jobs like that. It's a great book.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: It's written by a doctor who studied psychopaths for his
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: whole career.
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: All right, let's dive in. Let's dive in.
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: Where do we start? Let's go with some examples.
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: How about this couple in Nashville? They're a TV show.
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know much about it because I don't watch
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: this stuff. I really don't watch anything. But you know
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: what I'm talking about? Trump just pardoned these people that
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: went to prison for, I believe it was tax evasion.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't, I can't talk to, I don't know
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: much about that story. Like, again, these stories are rampant
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: across the US.
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: They're everywhere.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: And so, like, let's take, for example, a gentleman named
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: Ed Young in Dallas.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: This is the guy that almost had you arrested.
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: This is the guy that had me arrested.
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: Had you arrested.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: Everybody's always like, how do you pick your targets, Nathan? Like,
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: who do you go after? And I'm like, I don't.
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: Like I have asked God, you open the door, I'm
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: gonna walk through it. So I was in Dallas visiting
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: my dad and I wanted to go to church. I've
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: gone to church every Sunday all over the US. I
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: just visit churches. And I walk into what is a
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: satellite campus. So it means this pastor has multiple buildings
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: all over Dallas. His main campus is in Grapevine, but
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: I go to one just outside Frisco and I show up.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: Nice little building, probably seats 500, and pull into the
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: parking lot. There's cameras all over the parking lot. All
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: his banners are all over there and his branding. I
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: walk in, I do my standard thing, grab a donut,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: a cup of coffee, sit in the pews, sing some songs.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: This one, they don't even have a pastor preaching. They
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: just lower the screen and I watch the pastor preach
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: from his other main campus. And so I'm like, that's
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: kind of impersonal, but whatever. And I get up, walk out,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: go to my car, And I start the rental car
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: and it just doesn't turn over. And I'm like, what
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: the heck? And so it's kind of chugging and it
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: almost sounds like blowing bubbles in water. And I'm like,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: I think someone cut the catalytic converter out of the
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: rental car. So I look underneath and boom, the catalytic
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: converter is gone. And so I snap a picture and
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: I'm like, dang. So I just go back inside and
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: I'm like, hey, someone cut the catalytic converter out of
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: my car in your parking lot. There's cameras all over
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: the place. Could I just get the feed? So if
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: my insurance wants to see what happened, I can just
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: send it to them. And they give me a, a
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: card with their website and they go, go to our website.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: There's an informational sheet that you can fill out and
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: we'll contact you through that. I'm like, cool. So I
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: sent him a message. Hey, my catalytic converter got cut out.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: You know, this date, this location. Is there any way
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: you can just get me the feed for my insurance?
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: Crickets.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, okay, a month passes, two months pass.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, this is weird. Send him another message. Crickets.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, this is ridiculous. A year passes and
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: we're now we're in the, I wasn't even filming the
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: show at this point. And now we're in like the
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: thick of it. And I'm like, I'm gonna send them
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: another message, send them another message, crickets. Eventually the message
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: board just completely disappears off the website. So there's no
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: way to contact this church anymore. And so about a
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: year ago, I'm traveling with my camera operator and I'm like,
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: let's just see if we can get a phone number
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: and call them to see if we wanna give them money,
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: if they'll answer us. And so sure enough, I find
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: an accounting number. So I call the number and I say, hey,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: my name's Nathan Apfel. I don't lie to anybody. And
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: I say, I've been to your church a couple of times.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: I live out of state, how can I give you money?
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: Within 24 hours, boom, I get a call back. Nathan,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: let me tell you how to give stock, how to
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: give land, how to give jewelry, how to give cash.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: Like they are ready to take your money, but they're
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: not ready to help. And so this is when I'm like, okay,
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna start doing research on this guy. And so
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: I call our PIs and I'm like, hey, what do
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: you have on Ed Young and fellowship? And they said,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: The only way you can find any real legal material
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: is through lawsuits. And so there's a big differentiator in
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: the nonprofit sector that everybody has to realize. A secular
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: nonprofit files what's called a 990 with the IRS. This
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: form is an informational sheet that you are legally held
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: to account to. So if you lie on this form,
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: you're going to get busted. So if Sean, you have
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: a nonprofit and I donate to you and I feel
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: like something shady is going on, and the IRS comes
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: out and audits you and realizes that you lied on
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: your 990, they can hold you accountable. So it's strictly
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: an accountability form that says, hey, here's how Sean's nonprofit
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: is using the money. Churches do not have to file
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: that form.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: Really?
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: So there is no legal document that any church is
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: held to account to. So what that means is financials
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: are whatever leadership wants it to be. And so right there,
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: there's a massive breakdown in accountability. So.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: I call the church, or no, I'm sorry. I call
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: my PIs and my PIs are like, okay, the only
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: document we have is from 2005, I believe. And it's
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: because someone sued, the church got sued. And so they
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: did discovery. So they have what's called a housing allowance list.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: And so this is really unique to churches in the US.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: Pastors can take a tax-free housing stipend if they want.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: And so the language in the IRS code is something
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: along the lines of, Your tax-free housing allowance has to
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: be within means. So it's a gray definition, which means
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: if you've got good lawyers, well, Sean, you're a celebrity.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: You should live like Oprah. You should be able to
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: live in a $ 40 million home or a 28,000 foot
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: home in Tampa or whatever. And so you can offset
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: your tax burden in a major way if you take
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: more payment via housing allowance and not via salary, if
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: that makes sense. So this housing allowance document showed that
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: this pastor was taking $ 240, 000 a year in a housing
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: allowance on top of his salary. And so there was
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: my breadcrumb. I say, okay, this is 20 years ago.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: I wonder what his housing allowance is today. And you
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: can't find that out. And so my PIs do some digging.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: They say he's got about 15 million in real estate,
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: personal real estate now, buried in LLC structures. But he's
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: got a beachfront house in Florida. He's got a $ 6. 5
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: million home in Dallas. So his mortgage is about 200
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: grand a month, not 240,000 a year. So, you know,
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: I just estimate and I say, okay, he's gotta be
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: getting a couple million a year in a housing allowance.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: So I call his lawyer, who's the general counsel of
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: the church. And ironically, he's the CFO of the church.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: So not only is their lawyer, the CFO, but then
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: he gets ordained. So Ed Young ordains his lawyer. Why
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: would Ed Young need to ordain a lawyer? Because anybody
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: who gets to take a housing allowance has to be
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: an ordained minister of that church. So now I'm thinking, well,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: maybe his lawyer takes a housing allowance too. And so
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: I call the lawyer and I'm like, hey, here's the
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: data I have. And it's all on the show. And
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm in town. I'd love to hear from
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: you because we just want to know how the housing allowances,
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: you know, oh, and this is the kicker. I've been
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: donating to his church the whole time. And so as
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: a donor and as someone who attends your church while
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: I'm in Dallas, I want to know where my money's going.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: And if you're taking exuberant housing allowances that no one knows.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: And so sure enough, the lawyer never calls me back.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: So I decided to go to church on Sunday and
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: I let him know, I'm like, we're coming on Sunday.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: And so I show up and, uh, I don't show
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: up with guns, you know, with cameras all over the place.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: I just have a pair of glasses that record. And
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: so I walk into the church. They had me pegged
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: before I even made it through the front door. There
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: was two security guards out front. Todd, the head of security,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: literally passes me as I'm walking through the door in
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: the show. You see him touch his earpiece. I walk
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: into their store and I buy Ed's book. I want
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: to buy a sweatshirt that he's made. This is his design.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: And I want to get a coffee at his coffee shop.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: Before I'm even making it to the register, a gentleman
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: comes up and says, you can't buy this stuff. We
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: need to go outside. And so I walk outside and again,
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: there's no cameras with me. I just, I'm wearing a
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: wire and I have my glasses because I assumed something
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: like this would happen. And they go, you need to leave.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: And I said, why? And I said, I came to church.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: I wanted to buy your goods, your business. I want
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: to buy your goods. I give to you. And they go,
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: that doesn't matter, Nathan. And I said, what doesn't matter?
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: The fact that I give to you? Like you should
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: care about my giving and want to make sure you're
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: stewarding it properly. And so I said, I'll leave. Who
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: can I talk to in accounting? Because I just have
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: some questions about housing allowances and salaries. They would give
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: me no information, but they said, we will have you
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: criminally trespassed if you don't leave. And so I said, okay,
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: so if I leave, you're not going to criminally trespass me.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: And they said, no. So I go on my way,
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: but I had signs in the car because I figured, hey,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: they're going to kick me out. They're not going to
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: want to talk. So we leave, we kind of regroup.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: We wait for the second service to end. And I'm like, okay,
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go stand in the parking lot because
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: they won't give me any information. And my sign, all
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: it says is, what is Ed Young's housing allowance today?
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: And then Ed Young, what is your salary? That's it.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: These two little signs. So I walk onto the parking
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: lot before I even make it two thirds of the
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: way to the parking lot. And all I'm doing is
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: standing out front. I'm surrounded by probably 15 armed guards.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: And these guys are, I'm not military, but these guys
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: are rookie. Everybody's wearing different outfits. You can tell their
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: badges or their security. Some of it's bought from Amazon.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: Some are armed, some are not. They all have colored lapels.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: So I figured the lapel means you're either armed or
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: you're not. And they immediately bring a sheriff up and
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: they're like, we're going to arrest Nathan for criminal trespassing.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, all I want is who can I
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: talk with in accounting? And the sheriff doesn't arrest me.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: One of his private security grabs me, takes my phone
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: and my property, hands it to another private security, like
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: tore tenons in my arm, so I have to have
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: surgery on my elbow, rips me around, and they immediately say,
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: get him off the property. And I'm like, why? This
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: looks bad. And literally there's 20 armed security guards surrounding
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: this 165 pound dude with two signs. And so I
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: get arrested. I'm sitting there on the curb. Well, I'm
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: not arrested. I'm detained at this point, but not by
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: the actual PD. And it's in the show, I give
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: this awesome, I just talk to him. And I'm like,
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: look it, you guys believe you're doing the work of Christ.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, I can't hate you for that. Like,
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: you think you're doing good, just like I think I'm
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: doing good. So we're on the opposite side of the
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: same coin. But I'm like, look at this. No one
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: knows his housing allowance. He has a massive property in
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: Florida that no one knows about. The congregation doesn't know
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: about it. They've paid for that. He has bulletproof Range
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: Rovers that he just, he jets away from church. And
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: we saw this, he jumped curbs to get away because
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: he knew that I was near the property. And I'm like,
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: here's a dude driving away in bulletproof Range Rovers. Literally
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: we create, he created this world in his own head.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: And all I wanted to know was your housing allowance
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: that donors are paying. And so that's what I mean
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: is the machine eats you. I firmly believe when Ed
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: was young, he, God into this thinking he wanted to
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: save souls. He wanted to present Christ to people. And
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: now he's got 20 armed securities around me. In his
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: security office, we got word from some of his security
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: officers that there's a photo of me, a 12 by
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: 12 inch picture of me in their security office and
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: my code name was Hot Dog. And so I'm like,
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: I can't, I wish I could have gotten their walkie
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: channel because it's like Hot Dog is officially on the premises.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, all I'm here is because Ed wouldn't
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: talk to me. The general counsel, who's also the CFO,
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: won't talk to me. And so I'm just here for
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: one simple question. What is your housing allowance that all
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: these donors pay for? And to this day, unless they
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: sue me for making the show, no one will know
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: his housing allowance. And so that's the problem with the
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: machine at this point is you get gobbled up and
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: he runs something called C3 Global, which is a church
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: planting network. And his lawyer is also working with that.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: And so you start these, what's called auxiliaries, conventions, or associations.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: You start these side businesses as churches, and that's also
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: in the same darkness that a church is in. So
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: as what's happened is as business leaders, and there's this
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: big like entrepreneurial spirit now in the Christian church. I'm
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: an entrepreneur and a pastor. Well, no, you're just a
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: really smart businessman who's a Christian, but you're leveraging your
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: faith and you're starting a church or an auxiliary to
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: the church to play in the darkest space possible. And
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: a great example of that is the Church of Jesus
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Mormons. So in 98, they
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: had a couple billion sitting. And so they're like, hey,
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: we wanna start an investment arm. So they start an
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: investment arm called Enzyme Peak Advisors. It's a couple billion.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: They shove it in the market. And because there's these
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: additional terms in the IRS code, and again, this is
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: lobbying the government, so this is why they run, very
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: like parallel lanes, the government and religion, the LDS church
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: petitioned the IRS to add the term auxiliary in front
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: of church in the 60s. And it was men's clubs
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: back in the day. So men would meet up, smoke cigars,
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: you know, hang out, talk. And they're like, this is
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: technically church. And so the IRS added this term auxiliary
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: to their definition. Well, there's no definition, black and white
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: definition of what an auxiliary is. So if there's no definition,
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: anything can be an auxiliary. So the LDS church registers
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: their investment fund as an auxiliary, which means that auxiliary
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 2: is technically a church. It gets the same benefits that
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: the church gets. Flash forward 27 years, they're worth 300
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: billion and it's all for-profit ventures registered as churches.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: Wow. 300 billion.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: 300 billion in market assets. The LDS church will hit
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: a trillion in market assets in the next decade, all
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: under the guise of a religious institution. And the crazy
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: part is not $ 1 of that. Now it's a hedge
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: fund because they're hedging. Not a single dollar of that
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: fund has ever gone to humanitarian purposes or even the church.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: So if you're a shrewd businessman, you start a church
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: and you can do whatever you want. And so you
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: wonder why, oh man, Christianity is getting a bad rap
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: right now. You know, it's because, oh, there's these pastors,
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: you know, sexually abusing kids. No, it's because the whole
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: system is broken, the legal system. So that's what needs
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: to be reformed.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, we see this all the time. I mean,
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: pastors with runways behind their house, four private jets. I mean,
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: I know it's insane.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: Well, the private jet can be registered as a house
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: of worship in Texas, so you don't pay tax on
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: the jets. Huh?
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: It can be registered as what?
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: As a house of worship because you pray on it.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: So a private jet, a $ 20 million jet, is tax-free
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: because it's a house of worship.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: Is that an auxiliary as well?
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: It's just an asset of the church, but it's a
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: house of worship. It's part of it. It's your building, basically.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: The IRS sees it as your building.
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: So with these loopholes, you could basically purchase just about
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: any vehicle, any plane, any piece of real estate, any building.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: And a lot of times, like, so the LDS Church
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: is now the second largest private landowner in the US. 2.3
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: million acres. Wow. Tax-free. All under the guise of religion
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: and freedom of religion.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: And none of this goes to.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: They have farms. And this is where the LDS church
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: is very interesting. And we can get, like, I really
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: want to dissect the LDS church with you. They have farms.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: And so they say, hey, we're building our storehouse. So
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: this is Old Testament Torah. So we're going to have
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: goods and supplies in the storehouse, sufficient in God's storehouse.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: So they're quoting Malachi. And if you've tithed to us,
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: if you've given your full tithe, You're going to get
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: to enjoy the benefits of our storehouse if there's a
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: natural disaster or if Jesus comes. So they're building their conglomerate,
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: demanding you give 10% of your gross revenue to them,
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: and then you'll be able to benefit from us if
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: something happens. And here's the kicker. If you don't give
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: your full tithe, you don't get to benefit.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: How do they know?
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 2: Oh, they look at your bank statements.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: They turn in their bank statements?
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 2: Every year at the LDS church, you have to go
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: in And I can't remember what it's called, but it's
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: a meeting with your bishop and you have to discuss
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: your finances. And he says, have you been a full
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: tithe payer? And if you haven't, it's literally you're docked.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: And if you're not a full tithe payer, you don't
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: get your temple recommend. And if you don't have your
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: temple recommend, you don't get to get to heaven with
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: your family. So we've built these institutions and I'm gonna
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 2: give the benefit of the doubt here with good intentions.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: And they've become the middleman of God's resources. And here's
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: a question. Christ told to give to two things. Do
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: you know what those two things are in the Bible?
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's. So pay
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: your taxes. And then give to God the things that
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: are God's. Churches don't pay taxes. And then they've, so
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: this is Christ talking to you, Sean. Render to Caesar
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: the things that are Caesar's and give to God the
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: things that are God's. Well, the church has moved right
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: in the middle of you giving your resources to God
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: and said, we'll disperse these for you. Christ never told
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: you to give it to an institution. He never, this
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: is the big one too. He never told you to
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: give it to the house of God. He never told
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: you to give it to the temple because you are
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: the temple.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: He told us to pay taxes.
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: A little disappointed in that.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, because he said, I don't care about Caesar.
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: Caesar's going to come and go. Taxes are gonna go
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: up and down. Don't care about worldly things. He's literally saying,
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: just pay. Whatever he asks you, pay. Don't stress it.
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: But so this is an interesting conversation about, so why
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: was tax exemption created in the first place? So in 1913,
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: the government is looking at all these businesses out in
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: the US and they say, man, there's about 12,000 organizations, 12,000
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: businesses building what we call social capital. So they're in
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: their local communities because there's no TV, there's no internet,
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: you know, and there's no planes yet. So your world
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: is what's really around you within your 40 mile range, really.
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: And so there's these 12,000 organizations building social capital. And
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: the idea of this is, hey, even if Nathan doesn't
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: have kids, I want the park down the street to
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: be nice and safe for other people's kids. So raising
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: social capital, local social capital means I'm helping my local
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: community and driving what development economists call human flourishing. So
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: what businesses in our community are raising the level of
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: human flourishing? And that's what they defined as the nonprofits.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: So they said there's these unique businesses that are strictly
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 2: there to benefit the community. They're not after capital profits.
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: They're really here for the benefit of the community. So
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: we're gonna do this special carve out, and this is 1913,
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: and we're gonna call it the nonprofit sector. 12,000 organizations.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 2: and this includes churches, got that exemption in 1913. Today
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: there's 1.9 million nonprofits. So it's an explosion in the
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: sector and it's tied to technology. So every time a
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: tech boom happens, the nonprofit sector explodes because people see
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: it as a way to offload money because the regulations
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: are archaic. But so there's about 12,000 organizations. This includes
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 2: religious exemptions. Flash forward a couple of decades and the
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 2: IRS has to in effect now define a church because
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: churches are now saying, hey, we're nonprofit, we're building local
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 2: social capital, which they were, and some are, right? So it's,
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: we're helping the homeless, we're housing the unhoused, we're helping
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: foster care single mothers. We're really the backbone of our community,
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: which churches, which these institutions, because remember the church is
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: just the people, but the building itself was really for
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: the community. They do community meals together. They were there
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: for the community. So the IRS in effect had to
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: define a church so they could grant tax exemption. So
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: this always blows people away. The IRS used one organization
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: as the model to shove every religion into. And that
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: one organization was the Salvation Army. So they looked at
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: the Salvation Army, They said, the Salvation Army is doing
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: good things. Let's go in. And they created 14 points
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: and said, this is what the Salvation Army does. So
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: this is what church is.
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: What are those points?
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: Every church, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, you name it,
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: is tucked into that same 14 points. And it is,
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 2: you need a house of worship. So you need a
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: physical location. You need basically a board of elders, someone
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: to steer it. You need a creed or a form
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: of worship. You need childcare so you can raise the
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: next generation. So when you look at churches today, they're
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: based solely off these 14 points. So when you say
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: it's not bad, it's not bad, but that's not church.
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: It's literally just replicas of the Salvation Army. And then
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: you apply a level of entrepreneurialism on top of that,
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: and man, the sky's the limit, if that makes sense. Now, today,
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: there's 400,000 churches in the US. So if you lump Starbucks, McDonald's,
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 2: Taco Bell, Burger King, basically every fast food franchise into
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 2: one pile, there's still more churches than all those locations combined.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 2: And so people have just seen this 14-point checklist as...
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: There's two things. One, it's a way to abuse the system.
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: And then two, it's... which I really wanna talk about,
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: it's taken the potency out of religion because it's put
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: you in a box. And so I had someone from
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 2: the CIA call me a few months ago and they
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: were like, hey, Nathan, what do you know about the
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: 14-point checklist? And all I know is what the head
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: of the IRS, the nonprofit sector told me. And so
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 2: I'm like, here's the history of it. And they go, okay, good,
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: but it wasn't IRS that created that.
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: Who was it?
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: The CIA. And I said, why would they do that?
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 2: And they go, well, this individual was a Christian. They go,
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 2: Christianity is dangerous.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: And I said, yes. And they go, Islam is dangerous. Yes.
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 2: And I said, yes. And so they go, why not
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 2: put everything into a box that you can control? So
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 2: the carrot that the government uses to get religion into
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 2: that box is tax exemptions. So you sell your soul
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 2: for 30% to play by these 14 rules. And you
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: don't even have to abide by all the rules, just
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: a handful of them. So here's what's funny. You know
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: what else is a church? The Hell's Angels. What? Yeah,
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: they're registered as a church. So this box, knowingly or unknowingly,
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: took the potency of religion away. Because Christianity is extremely dangerous.
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: Look what it did to Rome. Within 200 years, Rome
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: was done. Constantine became a Christian. Constantine's like, hey, I'd
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: rather hang out with these guys.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: So you control them through these 14 points.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: It's basically, you have to play by these rules if
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: you want tax exemption. And so that's why every church
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: today in America looks the same, identical, whether that be Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism,
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: they all have the same building, the same group, the
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: same creed. Everything is the same because they play by
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: the same rules. So you've put every faith into this
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 2: box and now the box can just be tucked on
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: the shelf. And whatever politician is in power, they can
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 2: just take the box off and do whatever they want
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 2: with it. And Christianity, true Christianity, like we talked about
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 2: earlier is dangerous because you are not lorded over by
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: Trump or Biden or the US, like Christ is my Lord.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 2: And what he says I should do, I do. And
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: that is dangerous to institutions. And I use the analogy
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: of the early church as an organism. And so organisms
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: are organic and they move through systems. Humans like to
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 2: build boxes. That's what we're good at. You know, we
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: build buildings, we build systems, we build things because it's
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: safe in things. The 14-point checklist is safe. I can
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: go to this church for the rest of my life,
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: sing the same song, let's get the same donut. Maybe
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: I'll change it up, different flavor every other Sunday or something.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: You know, the same cup of coffee. I'll watch my
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 2: kids be raised by these instructors that I because, hey,
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: it abdicates my role as a father to train my
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: daughter up in Christ-centered values. But I'm safe there. And hey, man,
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 2: you know what? I'm gonna give you a percentage of
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: my money, because you're right, Sean, this does cost money.
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 2: And you know what? Hey, I'm gonna sponsor that distended
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: belly from Uganda, that poor little kid over there, and
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna give him 20 bucks a month. I don't
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 2: know if the money ever gets to him. And that's
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: what we explore in the show. That money usually doesn't
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: get to the kid.
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: It doesn't.
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 2: No, but I'm gonna give my 20 bucks and pin
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: it on that wall and be like, ah, you know, Ramses,
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 2: I got Ramses for the month. And then that money
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: gets torn down, put into a bucket, set aside. Oh,
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: here's another wave of kids. And all because we live
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: in this very safe box. And the Christianity in that
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 2: book is so dangerous. And that organism can move, that ekklesia,
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: that body. If it's nimble, it moves through systems. And
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: that's why Christ said, give to Caesar. I don't care
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 2: because my gospel is gonna move through this institution and
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 2: wash through it. And that's why Christianity literally just dominated
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: the world in those early couple hundred years because the
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: message was so pure and organic, nothing could stop it.
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: And you see that in the Ayatollah too, right? Religion
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 2: can be weaponized and religion is dangerous, whether that be
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 2: for good or ill. And so, yeah, Christianity, we've lost
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: our bite. And we have lost the thing being the thing,
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: which is Jesus. And instead we say, well, sing about him.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: Man, let's take a quick break. When we come back,
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: I'd like to get into more specific examples of how
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: the money's being used, who specifically, all that kind of stuff.
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then I want to talk about the positives,
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 2: because there's a lot of potential positives.
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: I want to talk about the positives too. So, cool.
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 1:26:04
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  Speaker 1: their first month at betterhelp.com slash SRS. That's betterhelp.com slash SRS.
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 1: All right, Nathan, we're back from the break. So we
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: want to get in some big stats, you know, overall
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 1: stats on, you know, how much money is going out,
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: how much they're saving, how much they're giving, whatever statistics
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: you want to share. And then I want to go
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 1: through specific examples of who you've seen with, you know,
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: inside the corruption through all your research. So we'll start
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 1: with the big stats. Let's do that.
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 2: So the religion business looks at the nonprofit sector as
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 2: a whole, right? And like I said, we go down
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 2: to the legal architecture. We talked about some history there.
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: About 1.5 trillion a year is given by individual donors
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: to nonprofits.
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 1: 1.5 trillion?
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: Trillion, with a T.
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: That's just individual donors.
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: Individual donors. This does not include government grants. So this
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 2: is far bigger than the U.S. military. And it's kind
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 2: of a black box. No one knows where that money goes.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 2: So it proves one thing in particular, Americans are really
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 2: generous people, you know?
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 1: So these are, this is 1.5 trillion. These are people
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: inside the congregation, people that are going to the church
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: that are just donating every week.
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 2: The nonprofit sector as a whole. So let's- Dial it down.
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 2: So Christians, global Christians give about a trillion dollars a
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 2: year to their churches. 600 billion comes from America. So
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 2: about 600 billion is given every year to Christian churches.
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 2: About 500 billion is given every year to nonprofits via
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 2: American Christians. So you're looking about 1.1 trillion in American giving.
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 2: And then add another 400 billion to on top of
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 2: that to global Christianity. Because I'm interested in, like in
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 2: the religion business, we look at the nonprofit sector and
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 2: then a lot of people go, Nathan, why are you
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 2: attacking or just looking at Christianity? And I say, well,
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 2: I'm looking at Christianity because I hold my faith to
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: the highest standard. I don't care about Islam. I don't
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 2: care about Buddhism. I care about my faith. So a
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 2: trillion dollars a year is given by Christians to Christian institutions.
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: Another 500 billion is given by Americans to nonprofits here
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 2: in the US. So it's a massive pile of money.
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 2: So where does that money go? About 44 cents of
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 2: every dollar that you give to a church goes straight
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 2: to salaries today.
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: 44 cents.
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: 44 cents of every dollar just goes straight to salaries.
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 2: 25 cents goes to just buildings. And then only 6
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: cents of every dollar ever even leaves the institutional walls
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 2: to go to the causes that Christ told us to
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 2: support the needy, the sick, the hungry, the thirsty.
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 1: Wow, so it's not even 10%. It's 6%.
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 2: Not even 10%.
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: Not even, yeah, 6%. 6% of all donations. Let's just,
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: what were the numbers on Christianity again that are just
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: going to the church?
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 2: A trillion.
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 1: Like $ 1 trillion globally.
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 2: Globally. 600 billion nationally.
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: And only 6% of that goes to charity.
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 2: Well, it's untraceable. So this is voluntary data given. So remember,
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 2: there's no 990s that churches file. So you don't know
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 2: what they give. So 6% is kind of like the
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 2: best potential outcome because they're giving you that information or
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: they're giving these statisticians this information. And so that's not
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 2: 6% creating impact down the value chain. So that's not
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 2: 6 cents of every dollar helping that orphan in Africa
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 2: or that, you know, cripple in Honduras. No, no, no,
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 2: that's just 6 cents making it outside the walls. And
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 2: usually what's happening now, because one thing I want to
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 2: touch on is these terms auxiliaries, like we talked about
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 2: with the LDS church, then you also have convention and association.
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 2: And so a lot of times now it's just a
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: church passing off that 6% to another business that they own.
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 2: So we don't even know.
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 1: If it leaves. Are you serious? Yeah. What would these...
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: These businesses could be anything if it's an auxiliary.
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So basically what we're seeing now is in the
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 2: last 25 years, churches have become... Businesses, smart entrepreneurs, and
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: I tip my hat to them, are starting to take
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 2: over churches and they're seeing the opportunity to literally build conglomerates.
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 2: So like, let's say, Chris, my business partner has a nonprofit,
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 2: a secular nonprofit that files a 990. It works in
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: the mental health space and he and I are good buddies.
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: I run Nathan's Church, it's massive. And I say, hey, Chris,
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 2: why don't we bring your secular nonprofit under the fold
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 2: of Nathan's Church? And that church, that business now Your
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 2: business is a church and you no longer have to
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 2: file 990s. And the excuse is, oh man, that frees
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 2: us up from paperwork and from the government, from big
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 2: brother looking down on us. But what it also does
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 2: is turn that organization completely dark. And so churches now
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 2: are starting to acquire businesses and bringing them under their fold.
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 2: And then just because those businesses are wrapped into my church,
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 2: they all become churches themselves. And so now I can
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 2: give six cents to Chris's church and say, look at
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 2: all the, or his business, which is now a church
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 2: and say, look at all the good work we're doing.
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 2: And so I can also take a salary from Chris's
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 2: business now and no one ever knows about it. And
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 2: so that's what we're seeing in organizations like ARC and
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 2: these church planting organizations is their whole strategy is to
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 2: teach you how to grow your business, how to grow
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 2: your church. You're not here to save your souls. Yeah,
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 2: of course we're here to save souls, Sean, but their
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 2: tagline is launch large. We want you to launch big
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 2: which means you need a soundstage, you need the big
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 2: flashy lights, you need people in your seats. So we're
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 2: going to teach you how to do that. And then, hey,
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 2: you can also start starting these other businesses.
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, these are so... I mean, my mind goes to,
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: I don't know why, but it goes, I mean, a
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 1: lot of these guys have private jets. A lot of
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: them have more than one private jet. You know, and
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: I don't even know who we're talking about it, but,
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: you know, there's the one guy that's got the.
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 2: Kenneth Copeland is a great example.
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: Runway behind his house, four jets. Yep. I mean, so
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: is that, you know, how it works with these guys,
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: you know, and I'm not, just business in general is
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: you buy a private jet, a yacht, you charter it out,
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 1: you use it when you need it. Obviously one person
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: doesn't need four private jets. You know what I mean?
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: So is that what they're doing? They're launching a jet
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: rental business that those all, so they're already tax-free from
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: buying the jet, right? Yeah, correct. then they rent the
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: jets out to other corporations or whatever. I don't see much, well,
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: again- Would that be an example?
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 2: Could be. And I know I've heard a couple of
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 2: people do that. That's their excuse for the private jet is, hey,
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 2: we're actually gonna make money with it. But I see
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 2: that as an excuse. Like there's this thing that we
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 2: profile on the show called long-term ministry, or I'm sorry,
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 2: long-distance ministry. And a pastor- will find an excuse and
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 2: open a church 1,000 miles, 2,000 miles, 3,000 miles away
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 2: from his main church. And then he goes, I need
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 2: a jet because I have to go preach the gospel.
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 2: And it's, again, it goes back to that biblical premise
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 2: of what is a church. Like you're here to make
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 2: disciples of men and run your ministry, which is your family.
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 2: Everything else is just man building layers on top of
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 2: Christ's message. Like Christ didn't say you need to fly,
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 2: like this guy needs a private jet to fly over there. Instead,
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 2: the Bible says to build and exhort Christians, raise up
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 2: Christians like you, Sean. And this is the kicker. The
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 2: whole point of a shepherd, of a pastor, because pastor
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: translates to shepherd, is to raise up his flock and
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 2: then send them out. So if the biblical form of
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 2: church is, I am here to, if you came to
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 2: my church, whatever that be, a home church, a megachurch,
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 2: My entire biblical goal is to steward you in the
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 2: faith and grow Sean to where Sean goes, I'm ready
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 2: to leave. I'm gonna go start my own. That's the
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 2: point of the church. But man, what a bad business
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 2: practice because you are my money. So no, I'm not
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 2: gonna send you out. I need you here, Sean. I
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 2: need you here building this, this machine that we built,
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 2: this business that needs you. But God didn't tell you
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 2: to build a building. He told you to build the body.
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 1: And so.
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 2: Those private jets are all excuses over here in the
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 2: business side. And they'll point to the Bible and find
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 2: a random obscure verse to justify it. And boom, that
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 2: jet is justified. They'll try to raise 20 million bucks
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 2: or whatever. But all of that, again, I'm gonna go
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 2: back to this Christ said it in multiple gospels. He goes,
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 2: you've taken traditions of men. So he said this in
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 2: the temple, you've taken traditions of men and you've called
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: it doctrine. And what he's saying is your culture, as
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 2: he's standing there in the temple 2000 years ago, your
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 2: culture is not doctrine. It is not the word of God.
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 2: This is just culture, but you're calling it doctrine. And
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 2: we're doing it again. This business over here is church. No,
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 2: that's just culture. This is doctrine. The true body of
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 2: believers is doctrine. That is culture. And planes are thrown
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 2: into that. Housing allowances are thrown into that. Lump everything,
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 2: all the loopholes that we profile are nothing but culture.
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 3: Man.
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: Keep going. I want to hear more examples. Actually, I
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: have a question.
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 1: Maybe you're familiar with this, maybe you're not, but I've
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 1: always heard that Christmas, that the birth of Christ was
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 1: actually in October, in early October. Have you heard this?
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 2: I've heard that, yeah.
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 1: And that the church made it December 25th and brought
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 1: up Santa Claus and all this other stuff. to bring
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 1: more people in for the money. Is there any truth
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 1: behind that?
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 2: I don't, that's not my wheelhouse. One of our good mentors,
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 2: very wise man, he goes, Nathan, there's this so what pile.
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 2: And he goes, you have to pick your lane and
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 2: then everything else is so what. And like, that to me, like,
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 2: I would assume Christ's birth was not December 25th, you know?
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 2: And so it's like, eh, it's a so what? Like,
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 2: we want to celebrate his birth, just like we want
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 2: to celebrate his resurrection. Like, I get that. So, yeah,
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 2: so what? Like, at the date, to me, I don't
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 2: have the time or the energy to research that. I
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 2: have heard that, but I can't speak to it as.
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: A truth or not.
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's some stuff with Easter, too.
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 1: Easter bunnies. You know about this?
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 1: Let's do it.
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 2: Educate me. Well, I don't know much about it, but
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 2: I've heard. So what have you heard?
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 1: Man, I don't even know how to organize it into
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 1: something that I can articulate, but it has to do
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 1: with the symbolism of the Easter bunny and all of
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 1: this stuff.
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, I haven't heard. I just think the Easter bunny is, again,
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 2: it's all about money, right? It's like the fact that churches,
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 2: I went to a church where they had a helicopter
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 2: fly over and rain Easter eggs down on the kids.
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, where in the Bible can you point
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 2: to that this is even remotely Christian? My guess is
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 2: it goes probably back to some pagan holiday, because most
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 2: things have to do with pagan holidays. But yeah, I
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 2: don't know much about if Easter and what the bunny symbolizes.
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: No cut. Yeah. We'll get into that another time.
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 2: Another time. Let me do some research. Give me a
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 2: little time and I'll come back with all that heat.
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 1: All right. So more examples.
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so another big loophole is, it's called inurement. So
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 2: this is a legal term that the IRS puts forward
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 2: and it's no part of, and this is what gives
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 2: you 501c3 status. So I'm going to, by memory, repeat
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 2: the definition of inurement and then I'm going to throw
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 2: examples out and I want to know if this is
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 2: inurement or not. No part of the net earnings of
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 2: a 501c3 may go to benefit any of the founders,
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 2: founder's family, shareholders, or stakeholders. That is inurement. That is illegal.
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 2: So no part of the net earnings of a 501c3
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 2: may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder, founder,
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 2: the founder's family, anybody in leadership, basically. So you can
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 2: take a salary, but you cannot use the net earnings
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 2: to benefit yourself. Is a private plane inurement?
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 1: No? Is it what?
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 2: Inurement.
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 1: Inurement, meaning?
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 2: So to inure yourself means you're using the net earnings
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 2: of that 501c3 to benefit yourself, not the mission of
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 2: the charity. So is a private plane inurement?
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: I think there are examples where it could be. I'm
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 1: sure that the majority of it is not.
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 2: Okay. Is a yacht?
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: No. Okay.
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 2: It's not inurement?
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: No, that would be for personal purpose.
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 2: Okay, so it is inurement. So inuring is if you
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 2: inure yourself with the money I give you, that means
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 2: you are inuring.
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 1: You're using it for personal gain.
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 2: You're using it for personal gain. So private yachts would
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 2: be inurement. How about you and your buddies... start a
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 2: conference and you all meet up and you just kind
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 2: of go on a ski trip for a week and
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 2: then you check the box that, hey, we met for
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 2: three hours to talk about something for the week.
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that would.
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 2: And you're met, right? And the reason why I'm going
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 2: down this waterfall is how about, hey, Sean, you're a
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 2: good looking dude who's on camera a lot.
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 2: You're welcome. You need a clothing allowance. I'm going to
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 2: pay you or you're going to take a $ 50, 000 year
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 2: clothing allowance. Is that inuring yourself? Yes.
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 2: So these are the slippery slopes that in Phil Hackney
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 2: at the IRS, he says it too. He goes, it's
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 2: really hard for us to be able to define what
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 2: inurement is. Because technically I would say you have a
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 2: more sane approach to inurement than most pastors. But hey,
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 2: I'm a pastor, very successful. I think I need a
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 2: private jet. And on paper, I'm going to prove why.
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 2: I'm going to fly to the church. This is my
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 2: favorite one. I'm going to fly to the church I
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 2: just built in the Caymans. It cost me 30 grand.
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 2: The fuel in my jet is going to cost me
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 2: 50 to get there. You know, so I outspent the
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 2: whole build on this church in this durable country just
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 2: with fuel alone. But I need that plane to get there.
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 1: You know what?
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 2: A lot of people, Sean, are looking at me on stage.
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 2: I need to look good. So that 50 grand is valid. Hey,
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 2: you know what? That yacht, that's where I witness to
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 2: other pastors. I take them fishing. We go deep sea fishing. Man, Sean,
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 2: you're gonna really meet God out on that water, I
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 2: promise you. And you're gonna land a Marlin at the
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 2: same time. And that's how they justify it. And so
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 2: our argument is most of the way these big pastors
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 2: in particular are using money is in yearment. They're building
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 2: their brand on top of the generosity of donors. And
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 2: those donors are giving to expand the mission of that
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 2: church or that nonprofit, but I am building my brand
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 2: off the back of it. if that makes sense. So
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 2: it's like a good book sales. This is my favorite one.
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 2: And most of these pastors use ghostwriters, and I've talked
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 2: to lots of the ghostwriters. Most of the pastors use ghostwriters,
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 2: so they don't even write the book, really. They'll read
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 2: it and scan through it and make a couple notes,
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 2: but they slap their name on it, they put a
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 2: title on it, and man, Sean, it'd be awesome if
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 2: I was on that New York Times bestsellers list. Well,
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 2: good news, I have a mega church, and so we're
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 2: gonna buy 20,000 copies of the book right when it
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 2: comes out. So I use donor dollars, I use tithe
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 2: money to buy my books, and it immediately puts me
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 2: on the New York Times bestsellers list. It's gonna sit
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 2: in the basement of the church for a while, but
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 2: don't worry, we'll give it away as free gifts to
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 2: new people that come. So I have officially inured myself,
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 2: because now the church is buying my books, I'm on
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 2: the bestsellers list, I get to launch my brand, and
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 2: no one's the wiser. And all these little scams are
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 2: happening in the background. And so Kenneth Copeland, is a
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 2: prime example of inurement. Kenneth Copeland is the guy, you've
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 2: seen the video before where the female news anchor corners
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 2: him on the runway and she walks up to him
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 2: and she's asking him about the private jets and he
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 2: gets in her face and he goes like this. Have
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 2: you seen that one?
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 1: Is this the guy that he looks like a demon?
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And he says, I can't fly, I have to
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 2: fly private because I can't have demons in the tube
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 2: with me. So he's calling people demons. That's Kenneth Copeland.
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 2: And so we had a great showdown on his property.
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 2: It's in the series. And so- What happened? So he
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 2: has a 19,000 square foot parsonage.
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: What's a parsonage?
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 2: A parsonage is a house owned by the church. So
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 2: it's bought and paid for by donor dollars and tithe givers,
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 2: and the pastor can live there. The purpose of this is, hey,
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 2: back in the day, clergy would live on site, right?
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 2: That door would be open 24 hours a day for
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 2: someone to come in, get prayer, you know, in the
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 2: Catholic world, you know, repent. And so that pastor would
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 2: need to be on site all the time. And so
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 2: they would build what's called a parsonage right next to
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 2: the church. So the pastor could live in this very
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 2: modest house that's usually attached physically to the church. Well,
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 2: over decades and just through precedent, that parsonage has been
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 2: pulled off. And so the church will pay for the
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 2: parsonage of the pastor, so the parsonage is owned by
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 2: the church, but the pastor can live in it. There's
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 2: no stipulation on how big that parsonage can be, how
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 2: extravagant it can be. So Kenneth Copeland has a 19,000
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 2: square foot parsonage on the lake, on his church property.
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 2: His church property, so this is the story about Kenneth. Kenneth,
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 2: what most people don't know, was a struggling musician. back
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 2: in the day. He became a pilot and started flying
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 2: Oral Roberts around. Oral Roberts is like OG evangelist. He's
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 2: like one of the first old school big boys in
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 2: the space, similar to Billy Graham. And so the story
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 2: goes that Kenneth Copeland was flying over Texas and saw
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 2: this runway next to this lake. And God gave him
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 2: this vision that he was gonna buy this whole parcel
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 2: and turn it into a church. and turn it into
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 2: what he calls the revival capital of the world. So
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 2: I'll flash forward. He creates this marketing pitch, starts his church.
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 2: And back in the day, in the 60s and 70s,
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 2: mailers were super popular. And so, you know, you'd mail,
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 2: you'd get a mailing list, you'd mail 50,000 envelopes out
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 2: and say, hey, Sean, give me 10 bucks. This is Nathan,
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 2: this is Pastor Nathan. I need 10 bucks to help
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 2: you spread this message. We have his mailer from the 70s.
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 2: And he promised to build six things. He said, and
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 2: in this pitch, God gave me the vision to buy
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 2: this runway. I'm going to build a radio station, a
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 2: TV network, ministry facilities, Kingdom Park, which was an extravagant
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 2: park for his churchgoers and his tithe payers, an elderly community.
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 2: So once you retire, you'll be able to retire on
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 2: the church property. And in your rooms, they would pipe
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 2: in Kenneth Copeland's TV network so you could watch kenneth
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 2: copeland preach the gospel 24 7 a day and then
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 2: um elderly home and then a hotel for guests to
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 2: come and enjoy the lake so he sent that pitch
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 2: out raised tens of millions of dollars he ever only
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 2: built three i had to make sure it was three
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 2: three of the things he promised to build One was
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 2: the radio station. Two was the TV network. Three was
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 2: the ministry facilities. He never built the three things that
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 2: people would donate money for. I would want to use
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 2: the park. I would want to use the hotel. Maybe
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 2: one day I'd want to retire in that facility. He
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 2: never built anyone, any of them. In the for-profit world,
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 2: that would be called fraud. He would be in jail.
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 2: In the religious world, we call it faith, Nathan. You
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 2: got to have faith. So in the interim, he buys
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 2: 1600 acres on this lake in Texas. He builds the
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 2: ministry facilities. He builds the radio and TV networks. And
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 2: then a gentleman, a builder, a developer was like, hey,
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 2: this bottom part of your 1600 acres is prime for development.
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 2: So he peels off 400 of the 1600 acres and
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 2: sells it to a developer. So there is a housing
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 2: development there today. It's not for the elderly though. And
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 2: he made money off that deal. It just went back
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 2: to his church. In the meantime, I can't remember the
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 2: gentleman's name. He drills oil, started going to the church.
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 2: And he's like, hey, you own the mineral rights of
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 2: this land. Let's start pumping oil. So they've been pumping
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 2: oil for decades and no one knows how many tens
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 2: of millions of dollars have been made off the oil
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 2: because it's all disguised.
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 1: All of it.
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 2: All of it. It's all called a church. And so...
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 2: Flash forward, now he's an older guy.
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 1: So the oil business falls under the church.
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 2: The church owns the oil business. Yeah. So he has
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 2: his private, two private runways. He's got his ministry facilities.
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 2: He peeled off 400 acres to a for-profit development. He's
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 2: got his oil platforms. And at the very bottom of
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 2: the lake or the property near the lake, he started
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 2: building this 19,000 square foot parsonage. And now he lives
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 2: in it. No one's ever been there before. So no
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 2: one knows what it looks like. Pastors have, but nobody
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 2: like you and I have ever been there. So that 19,000
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 2: square foot parsonage, word is from an informant that basically
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 2: Copeland has Epstein tons of pastors. So there was an
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 2: electrician back in the day that wired cameras and audio
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 2: recording devices into every guest room in that 19,000 square
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 2: foot parsonage. And so if you have pastors so afraid
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 2: of their rivals.
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 1: So they're blackmailing. He's blackmailing.
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, gotta get dirt on people.
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 1: How did you come across this information?
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 2: Through our PIs. Yeah.
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 1: Every single guest room in a.
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 2: The guest rooms in a parsonage owned by the church
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 2: is wiretapped, video and audio, to basically archive dirt on
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 2: people staying with you.
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 1: Has anybody received the footage?
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 2: No. Because no one can ever get to the house.
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 1: Man, wow, wow.
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 2: Things aren't as it seems.
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 1: It appears that way.
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 2: So I had the thought that, hey, I want to
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 2: see the parsonage. So I start giving money to his church,
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 2: and I'm like, the church owns that house. No one's
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 2: seen it, so I want to see it. So a
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 2: YouTuber named Tommy G and I, I start going to
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 2: his church. And we're like, okay, I get a schematic,
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 2: a big printout of his property because it's huge. I
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 2: track the roads, we get a visual on it. And
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 2: there's one open gate from rain runoff that couldn't close.
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 2: And it went from a parking lot to this dirt road.
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 2: And so I could see it on the map and
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 2: I'm like, that's our inn. We're just gonna steer down
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 2: this open gate and see where it leads us and
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 2: we're gonna try to get to the house. So this
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 2: is in the show. We go to service. Ironically, all
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 2: these pastors know me. So as soon as I sit down,
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 2: there's three security guards around me, like with their earpieces.
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 2: And I sit through part of the service. I get
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 2: up and leave. And Tommy walks out. And we meet
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 2: at the cars. And we just start driving. So we
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 2: get on this dirt road. We go over this open fence.
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 2: And boom, we're 50 yards from his runway. But there's
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 2: a gate closed. And I'm like, shoot, I got nowhere
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 2: to go, man. We pull up to the gate.
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 1: It just opens.
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, well, this is God. So we're doing this.
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 2: So we get onto the runway. So now it's something
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 2: out of a, what's that? You know, it's something out
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 2: of an action movie. We got two cars flying down
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 2: a runway now. And I'm like, okay, we're gonna make
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 2: a hard right here. And this is all in the show.
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 2: And there's another gate. And boom, that gate opens too.
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 2: And so now we're like three quarters the way to
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 2: his house. No one's been down here before. No one's
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 2: ever seen footage of this. And I'm a big bow hunter.
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 2: And so as I'm driving through this property, it's all
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 2: high fenced. So it's 10 to 12 foot fences. I
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 2: start seeing bucks everywhere. And I'm like, this is his
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 2: own hunting ground. And sure enough, we pull up to
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 2: his house and there's one final gate and he has
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 2: this massive deer stand. And I'm like, this pastor has
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 2: his own high fenced hunting ground on his property, on
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 2: the church property that no one gets to use, but
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 2: they pay for. So we pull up to the fence
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 2: and there's a keypad. So I'm like, we're not getting
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 2: through this one. And now I'm 200 yards from the house.
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 2: So we can see it. So we put drones in
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 2: the air, we're having fun. No one's ever been here.
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 2: And so there's no security. And so I call the
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 2: front desk of the church because I'm like, well, we're
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 2: kind of stuck here now. So I call the front
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 2: desk and I can't remember the guy's name. Abraham. This
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 2: nice guy named Abraham answers. And he's like, this is Abraham.
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 2: How are you doing, Nathan? And I said, whoa, how
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 2: do you know this is Nathan? And he goes, we
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 2: have your number. You've been giving to us. And so
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 2: they're just a refined call center. And I'm like, okay, awesome.
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 2: He's like, what would you like to do? Would you
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 2: like to give money or would you like prayer? And
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 2: I'm like, well, I got a random request. Like we're
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 2: sitting at the gate of Kenneth's house. Like I'd love
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 2: to meet the pastor. And he's like, you're what? And
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm at the gate. Like we're down here.
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 2: We made it through two gates. We were on the one.
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 2: And I tell him the whole story and he goes,
• 1:54:39
  Speaker 2: please hold. And he just puts me on hold. And
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 2: there's some hymn music in the background. We sit there
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 2: for 30 minutes. And I'm like, no one believes that
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 2: we actually made it here. So let's just head back
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 2: to the runway. So we drive back to the runway
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 2: and we just wait. And I'm like, if we just
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 2: sit on the runway, someone's going to see us. So
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 2: we just sit on this open runway. And sure enough,
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 2: within five minutes, boom, two private security guards come or
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 2: cars come driving by, park next to us. They're professionals.
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 2: Like after Ed Young's experience, like I know private security
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 2: and I know professional security and then just like straight cowboys.
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 2: And these guys are professionals. So they come up and
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 2: they're like, You know, what are you doing? And I'm like, hey,
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 2: we just have a couple of questions about the parsonage.
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 2: We tried to get there, but we couldn't get there.
• 1:55:21
  Speaker 2: And we're having a cordial conversation. And out of nowhere,
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 2: we just hear this F-150, oh, come screeching up on us.
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 2: And this dude jumps out and he looks like John
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 2: Ritter from the movies. So he comes like flying up
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 2: to where he almost hits us, a couple of feet
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 2: from us. and he gets out and he tears his
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 2: glasses off and he opens his jacket and he walks
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 2: up to us. He's like, you out of here now.
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 2: And he flashes this badge and he pulls his shirt
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 2: open and he's got his like a little pistol, like
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 2: nine or something sitting there in his pants. And luckily
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 2: Tommy G has been through this enough and he goes,
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 2: let me see that badge. And the guy goes, no,
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 2: get out of here now. And he goes, no, no,
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 2: I just, I want to see your badge. And this
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 2: guy grabs both of us, so assault, and starts shoving
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 2: us to the cars. And right then the professional security
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 2: is like, whoa. So they grab John Ritter and they
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 2: throw him against his truck and they're like, get out
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 2: of here. And it turns into this funky altercation. Come
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 2: to find out he is kind of this private security,
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 2: like main security guy. And again, I'm respectful. And so
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 2: cops show up, there's kind of a standoff and we're like, hey,
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 2: we just have questions about the financials and no one's
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 2: willing to talk. You know, that parsonage is paid for
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 2: by the congregants. No one's ever been here. No one's
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 2: ever seen it. Like at least someone should be able
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 2: to look at it. And the cops are like, hey,
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 2: can you guys please leave? And the private security is like,
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 2: can you guys just leave? And we're respectful. We're like, okay,
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 2: but we'd love to talk to someone. So flash forward
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 2: a couple of days, we find out that cowboy security
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 2: is Kenneth's private security and they fire him. That guy
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 2: has traveled around the US to churches. He gets hired
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 2: and fired over and over again. It's just his MO.
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 2: But so another major loophole is these parsonages. You could
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 2: do whatever you want. David Taylor, who was just arrested
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 2: by the FBI yesterday, 26 or 28,000, you know, square
• 1:57:13
  Speaker 2: foot home in Tampa, Florida. You know, that's just one.
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 2: He has about 28 million in real estate. And so
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 2: just with the loopholes, you can do whatever you want.
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 2: And again, you're asking for money, whether that be through
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 2: tithing or generosity, from vulnerable people who are there, you know,
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 2: to be prayed on and loved on. And these guys
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 2: just build empires in the name of Jesus. Man.
• 1:57:40
  Speaker 1: Do you think they're preaching anything that is, I mean,
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 1: what do you think about their teachings?
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is garbage. Like, I mean, like when I
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 2: was there, it was after Trump got shot in the
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 2: ear and he had a photo of Trump up behind
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 2: him on the big screen. and he literally said, God
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 2: gave Trump as our savior, you know? And then he
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 2: believes that the, so this is a great story. So
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 2: in 2007, or it might've been 2018, Congress was looking
• 1:58:12
  Speaker 2: at some really bad players. So our boys in Texas,
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 2: the Trinity Foundation had made a big enough stink. And
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 2: so Congress was starting to look at prosperity gospel preachers
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 2: and the worst players, led by Senator Grassley. And Benny Hinn,
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 2: if you know who Benny Hinn is, megachurch pastor, he's
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 2: the guy that whips you with his coat and you
• 1:58:35
  Speaker 2: fall backwards. Benny Hinn spent $ 5 million fighting this inquiry
• 1:58:40
  Speaker 2: at the time. So these guys are hemorrhaging money to
• 1:58:43
  Speaker 2: stop the government from looking at their businesses. The stock
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 2: market crashes, the real estate market crashes, the whole crash
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 2: of 08 happens. Kenneth Copeland, will say that that was
• 1:58:56
  Speaker 2: a gift from God, a miracle from God to get
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 2: the government off their back. God crashed the economy in
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 2: 2008 so the government would stop looking at them. So
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 2: that's the type of crap these guys preach from the pulpit.
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 2: And then his son-in-law, while we were there, was up
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 2: on stage and it's in the show. And he goes,
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 2: in difficult times, we prosper and we are getting very prosperous.
• 1:59:23
  Speaker 2: And he goes, The purpose of prosperity is distribution. And
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 2: in the show, you see this. He literally says it
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 2: and just starts laughing when he says distribution. And he
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 2: catches himself and he's like, distribution. Because he's like, you're
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 2: not distributing anything. You know, you say you are. And
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 2: they'll say, on their website, they say, hey, we give
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 2: 10% away. We ask for 10%, we give 10% away.
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 2: But no one knows because there's no 990 filed. So
• 1:59:51
  Speaker 2: it's whatever that leadership of that organization wants to say,
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 2: you have to take it as faith. And so Kenneth
• 1:59:57
  Speaker 2: Copeland committed fraud. He wanted to build those six things.
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 2: He promised investors he would build those six things. He
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 2: only ever built three. And it was the three he
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 2: could benefit from. That is straight up fraud in the
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 2: for-profit world. And yet he's on TV to this day preaching,
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 2: you know, whatever gospel he's preaching.
• 2:00:15
  Speaker 1: You know, human beings are really good at justifying why
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 1: they're doing things. And they, they, it's, it's, I see
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 1: so many people, they trick their own mind into justifying
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 1: why they're doing what they're doing. Do you think these
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 1: people actually believe that they're doing good?
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 2: Or.
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 1: 100%.
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 3: You do?
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 1: I do.
• 2:00:39
  Speaker 2: I think the majority of them.
• 2:00:42
  Speaker 2: I think they have to, right? Dan Bramer in the
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 2: show says, no one believes something they think is stupid.
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 1: Well, see, I mean, I don't know. I kind of
• 2:00:48
  Speaker 1: disagree with you on this because if they really, truly
• 2:00:52
  Speaker 1: believed that they were doing good, then what would be
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 1: all the... I mean, just out there on the break,
• 2:00:57
  Speaker 1: you told me not one of these people have debated you,
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 1: have given you any evidence of good that they're doing.
• 2:01:08
  Speaker 1: They haven't even spoken to you, correct? Except the one
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 1: guy who.
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 2: Who didn't speak to me, but... Yeah.
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 1: He spoke to you for like five minutes and said
• 2:01:17
  Speaker 1: they'll do it later.
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 2: I'll point to the books, the Bible. I'll point to
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 2: those scriptures. The blind lead the blind. And I always
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 2: use the analogy, we'll talk about tithing. I'd love to
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 2: talk about tithing in a little bit. But someone who
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 2: has tithed their whole life, so given 10% to their institution,
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 2: and I think about the LDS church a lot because
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 2: they really do take advantage of the system, is... People
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 2: don't want to see their lifelong actions as silly almost,
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 2: if that makes sense. Like I put my hard-earned money
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 2: into this machine and like.
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 1: Just flip the whole world upside down. We were talking
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 1: about that at the beginning.
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 2: And so the, like everything is backwards. And so like,
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 2: I do believe most of the, I believe Ed Young
• 2:02:05
  Speaker 2: in particular firmly believes he is in the right. I
• 2:02:08
  Speaker 2: believe his lawyer, Dennis Brewer Jr. firmly believes he's right.
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 2: And the ironic part about the lawyer, Dennis Brewer Jr.,
• 2:02:15
  Speaker 2: who is the CFO and the legal counsel, the general
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 2: counsel for Fellowship Church, his dad was also a lawyer
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 2: for Kenneth Copeland. And so you have pastors passing down
• 2:02:27
  Speaker 2: their knowledge to their kids that take over their business.
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 2: And then on the other side of the spectrum, you
• 2:02:31
  Speaker 2: have lawyers who protect these guys and pastors passing down
• 2:02:35
  Speaker 2: knowledge on how to beat the system as well to
• 2:02:37
  Speaker 2: their kids who become lawyers. So it's, I don't even
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 2: know the analogy But it's just corrupt passing down corruption.
• 2:02:47
  Speaker 1: It's generational.
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you think that they actually believe that
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 1: they're doing good, then why wouldn't they talk to you?
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 1: Why wouldn't they give you the information that you need
• 2:02:59
  Speaker 1: to clear their congregation, their name?
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 2: Because now is the time. I firmly believe God is
• 2:03:09
  Speaker 2: working and now is the time for reform. And this
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 2: is where it was 16 years of research and speaking
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 2: and listening to the most brilliant minds in the world.
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 2: God is, I believe, using me to bring the most
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 2: brilliant minds in the world together to present the argument.
• 2:03:25
  Speaker 2: It's not me on the religion business presenting this argument.
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 2: I'm presenting it to you now, because I'm regurgitating what
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 2: I've heard with these genius minds, but these minds have
• 2:03:36
  Speaker 2: never been brought together. And so to debate tithing would
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 2: mean they're gonna lose. They've been presenting and misunderstanding the
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 2: scriptures on that for 200 years. About 200 years now,
• 2:03:49
  Speaker 2: pastors have been preaching tithing. They didn't preach tithing before.
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 2: So that's what's so fascinating is their whole theology, which
• 2:03:56
  Speaker 2: is just the study of the scriptures, is off. And
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 2: so if you really look at it, I'm gonna tear
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 2: you to shreds. You're not gonna be able to handle
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 2: a discussion with me on tithing. And then what happens?
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 2: As soon as your congregation sees you questioning, or they
• 2:04:14
  Speaker 2: can question your ask for money, it's a house of cards.
• 2:04:18
  Speaker 2: Once you flick that one, the whole thing collapses. And
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 2: so that's why no one will debate me on it.
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 2: They'll sit and they'll fly around with their private jets
• 2:04:25
  Speaker 2: and make fun of me and make funny memes of
• 2:04:27
  Speaker 2: me with devil horns and call me Timu Judas, which
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 2: I think is pretty funny. That's kind of my online
• 2:04:31
  Speaker 2: name now is Timu Judas. But it's like, it's because
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 2: they can't debate me biblically. And so... They might have
• 2:04:40
  Speaker 2: good intentions, but we always say good intentions pave the
• 2:04:42
  Speaker 2: way to hell. And these guys, I'm gonna give them
• 2:04:45
  Speaker 2: the benefit of the doubt, have great intentions, and they
• 2:04:48
  Speaker 2: are rapidly paving the church to hell, just out there
• 2:04:54
  Speaker 2: every Sunday. And I would call it a false gospel.
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 1: Who says good intentions are the gateway to hell?
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 2: We say it in the show. It's a very popular term,
• 2:05:04
  Speaker 2: but we've used it in the show It's in our trailer.
• 2:05:09
  Speaker 2: That's been one of our mantras. Humans will human, slow
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 2: is fast, and good intentions pave the way to hell
• 2:05:14
  Speaker 2: is our mantras.
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 1: Can you give any good examples of good intentions as
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 1: the gateway to hell?
• 2:05:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Man, I want to say, I'm going to use
• 2:05:26
  Speaker 2: a church. Man, I want to save souls. I want
• 2:05:28
  Speaker 2: to present Christ. Christ has saved me. You know, He
• 2:05:33
  Speaker 2: is the way, the truth, and the life. No one
• 2:05:35
  Speaker 2: gets to the Father, Yahweh, except through Him. And I
• 2:05:38
  Speaker 2: want to tell people about that. I had a radical transformation.
• 2:05:41
  Speaker 2: So I'm gonna go to seminary. That's a good intention
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 2: to go to seminary. Most seminaries today teach you how
• 2:05:47
  Speaker 2: to build the business. So that's the first good intention
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 2: of mine that's paving my way, that's laying out this road.
• 2:05:54
  Speaker 2: And remember that MS-13 member, you got 10 bad decisions
• 2:05:58
  Speaker 2: till you murder someone. And that's me being grumpy on
• 2:06:01
  Speaker 2: the freeway, Someone, you know, cuts me off. I flash
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 2: my brights. That's issue two. I tell him to pull
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 2: over because I want to yell at him. That's issue three.
• 2:06:09
  Speaker 2: He's armed and I'm armed. We both get out of
• 2:06:11
  Speaker 2: the car, right? All these poor decisions can lead a
• 2:06:14
  Speaker 2: decent upstanding person to kill someone. And then boom, he
• 2:06:17
  Speaker 2: pulls a gun. I pull a gun, someone dies. And
• 2:06:21
  Speaker 2: so you look at these good intentions. So I go
• 2:06:23
  Speaker 2: to seminary. Now I know how to start a church.
• 2:06:27
  Speaker 2: The banks, my seminary is actually aligned with a local bank.
• 2:06:31
  Speaker 2: So they're going to give me a loan. I'm going
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 2: to take that debt on because I think I want
• 2:06:35
  Speaker 2: to preach the gospel. So there's another good intention to move,
• 2:06:38
  Speaker 2: but now I have debt I got to pay down
• 2:06:39
  Speaker 2: and I don't even have a congregation yet. And so
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 2: can you see the angle to where hell is me
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 2: being frustrated with my work, me cheating on my wife?
• 2:06:48
  Speaker 2: Like you look at the field of church leadership and
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 2: it's just wrought with adultery, you know, theft, fraud, abuse.
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 2: And it's because all these good intentions in this system
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 2: have led me to hell. And so unless I use
• 2:07:06
  Speaker 2: Christ as my beacon and I'm walking towards him and
• 2:07:10
  Speaker 2: I'm studying those scriptures and in prayer, I'm gonna end
• 2:07:13
  Speaker 2: up in hell. And then the Bible, I will end
• 2:07:15
  Speaker 2: up in hell, whether it be I become a pastor
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 2: or work in filmmaking.
• 2:07:19
  Speaker 1: Well, without good intentions, I mean, what do we have?
• 2:07:23
  Speaker 2: Oh, this is a big one. You have Christ.
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 1: It's not you, Sean.
• 2:07:28
  Speaker 2: As a Christian, it's not you. It's not me. Pastors
• 2:07:32
  Speaker 2: always say, Nathan, I'm doing my best. And I say,
• 2:07:34
  Speaker 2: I hate that term. Christ didn't say, do your best.
• 2:07:38
  Speaker 2: He said, you will fail, but every day you will
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 2: get up, die to yourself, pick up your cross, and
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 2: follow me. To the point where all, when I look
• 2:07:48
  Speaker 2: in the mirror, I don't see Nathan anymore, I see Christ.
• 2:07:51
  Speaker 2: because I see the fruits of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control, faithfulness.
• 2:07:57
  Speaker 2: Like that is what I want to look in the
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 2: mirror and see. And I will never get up and
• 2:08:01
  Speaker 2: be like, dang, I did my best. My brother and I,
• 2:08:04
  Speaker 2: who's a brilliant scholar, like brilliant biblical scholar, he and
• 2:08:10
  Speaker 2: I wrestle with that all the time because he's like,
• 2:08:11
  Speaker 2: I never want to hear myself say I did my best.
• 2:08:15
  Speaker 2: I failed, but God through grace is going to give
• 2:08:18
  Speaker 2: me another attempt at this And so good intentions, I
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 2: don't care about good intentions. You know, it's like, I
• 2:08:23
  Speaker 2: care about emulating Christ. Because my daughter, who's seven, who's
• 2:08:30
  Speaker 2: the show, I'm sitting in this chair because of her.
• 2:08:33
  Speaker 2: And I don't ever want her to be like, my
• 2:08:36
  Speaker 2: dad did his best. I want her to be like,
• 2:08:40
  Speaker 2: my dad was a broken man who every day tried
• 2:08:43
  Speaker 2: to emulate Christ. And so I'm going to do the
• 2:08:46
  Speaker 2: same thing. And it's... That's as simple as Christianity is.
• 2:08:54
  Speaker 2: It's nothing else. So everything over here, the business, the machines,
• 2:08:57
  Speaker 2: the good intentions, I don't care. God didn't say, or
• 2:09:01
  Speaker 2: Christ didn't say, Nathan, go out with good intentions. He said,
• 2:09:05
  Speaker 2: sin no more. And he gave very clear directives. And
• 2:09:09
  Speaker 2: he knew we would fail. And that's what grace and
• 2:09:11
  Speaker 2: forgiveness is for. But I don't go out saying, man, see,
• 2:09:14
  Speaker 2: this is the slippery slope. I was raised in the
• 2:09:18
  Speaker 2: Christian church. I can confidently say I did not know Christ.
• 2:09:24
  Speaker 2: And I wrestled with this idea that he is the way,
• 2:09:26
  Speaker 2: the truth, and the life until my early 30s, until
• 2:09:28
  Speaker 2: my daughter came into the world. Because I had faith
• 2:09:31
  Speaker 2: in my faith. So you're right. I had so many
• 2:09:34
  Speaker 2: good intentions to be like Jesus. I would go to church.
• 2:09:36
  Speaker 2: I'd sing. I'd put my hands up. I'd put money
• 2:09:38
  Speaker 2: in the bin. I'd volunteer. I'd go to camps. I
• 2:09:41
  Speaker 2: was a train wreck. In my 20s, I did drugs.
• 2:09:44
  Speaker 2: I just couldn't get my life together. I had no
• 2:09:47
  Speaker 2: order in my life. and it was all good intentioned.
• 2:09:52
  Speaker 2: And I heard a lot of people along the way
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 2: because man, I love Jesus. I'm a Christ follower and yada, yada, yada.
• 2:09:58
  Speaker 2: But no, I had good intentions. I wanted to be
• 2:10:01
  Speaker 2: like Jesus, but I had no spine. I had no
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 2: moral backbone because all my leaders around me didn't have
• 2:10:06
  Speaker 2: a spine and a backbone because I was looking at
• 2:10:08
  Speaker 2: them to say, this is what I should emulate. And
• 2:10:12
  Speaker 2: who are they? They're sexually abusing their adopted kids. They're
• 2:10:15
  Speaker 2: committing adultery. They're divorcing their wives. And I'm like, this is,
• 2:10:18
  Speaker 2: this is junk. Like all these guys have good intentions too.
• 2:10:22
  Speaker 2: So it's when you finally experience Christ and see Christ,
• 2:10:28
  Speaker 2: you say, that is my focal point and nothing else.
• 2:10:31
  Speaker 2: And then good intentions don't matter. And it's like, I'm
• 2:10:34
  Speaker 2: gonna live, I'm gonna try my damnedest to live up
• 2:10:38
  Speaker 2: to him and I will fail every day. But when
• 2:10:41
  Speaker 2: I die to myself, Christ shines through me. And Paul
• 2:10:45
  Speaker 2: says it best, you know? He goes, died out of myself,
• 2:10:48
  Speaker 2: so Christ literally comes through me. It's not I who live,
• 2:10:51
  Speaker 2: but Christ in me. And as a Christian and a
• 2:10:54
  Speaker 2: Christ follower, that is the only thing we look at.
• 2:10:57
  Speaker 2: Everything else is just smoke and mirrors and a trillion dollars.
• 2:11:04
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• 2:13:34
  Speaker 1: These statements and information are not a substitute for or
• 2:13:38
  Speaker 1: alternative to seeking care from your healthcare providers. Before we
• 2:13:44
  Speaker 1: move into tithing, which I kind of wanted to save
• 2:13:49
  Speaker 1: this at the end, we will revisit it, but I mean, what,
• 2:13:54
  Speaker 1: What would you like to see happen out of all this?
• 2:13:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, is it transparency that you want to see?
• 2:14:03
  Speaker 1: Or is it, what is it? I mean, because you're
• 2:14:06
  Speaker 1: making money off the docuseries, correct?
• 2:14:09
  Speaker 2: We're losing a lot. We're losing money. So I'll tell
• 2:14:13
  Speaker 2: you right now, transparency is step one. And that is
• 2:14:16
  Speaker 2: just shining a light into the business center, saying transparency
• 2:14:21
  Speaker 2: needs to be brought in. That's all. I could care less,
• 2:14:23
  Speaker 2: and my business partner and I, we always say, we
• 2:14:25
  Speaker 2: could care less if your pastor makes 20 million bucks
• 2:14:27
  Speaker 2: a year, or if he makes, or if she makes 100,000
• 2:14:30
  Speaker 2: bucks a year. The only thing we care about is
• 2:14:32
  Speaker 2: that you know, because you will make the right decision.
• 2:14:36
  Speaker 1: They can make an educated decision.
• 2:14:37
  Speaker 2: And so, the Reformation, 1517, Martin Luther, do you know
• 2:14:43
  Speaker 2: much about the Reformation? No. So the Vatican was at
• 2:14:48
  Speaker 2: its peak. They were fighting wars. They were building the Basilica.
• 2:14:51
  Speaker 2: Have you been to the Vatican? Yeah, incredible, right? So
• 2:14:55
  Speaker 2: they're hemorrhaging money. The Roman Catholic Church is almost broke.
• 2:14:59
  Speaker 2: They start selling indulgences, which has no real even tie
• 2:15:04
  Speaker 2: to the scriptures because they have to raise more money.
• 2:15:08
  Speaker 2: They've got a stranglehold on the Bible. And so they're
• 2:15:11
  Speaker 2: the ones that read the scriptures. And Martin Luther and
• 2:15:14
  Speaker 2: a few others are like, this is ridiculous. This book
• 2:15:16
  Speaker 2: needs to be out for everybody to be able to read.
• 2:15:20
  Speaker 2: You know, they translated into German and a few other
• 2:15:22
  Speaker 2: languages and boom, the Reformation happens because now that Bible,
• 2:15:26
  Speaker 2: that massive Bible, you can read at your house. You
• 2:15:29
  Speaker 2: don't need the Vatican anymore to do that. And so
• 2:15:32
  Speaker 2: you have the Protestant Reformation. But what had happened is
• 2:15:35
  Speaker 2: all power had siloed at the top of the Vatican.
• 2:15:38
  Speaker 2: So it was a monarchy. There was a few select
• 2:15:40
  Speaker 2: people at the very top controlling the literature, controlling what
• 2:15:44
  Speaker 2: people do, asking for money and you had to give
• 2:15:47
  Speaker 2: the money up the value chain to this top leadership.
• 2:15:51
  Speaker 2: Martin Luther writes in one of his books, he goes,
• 2:15:54
  Speaker 2: I see them in Rome now, sitting around drinking their
• 2:15:57
  Speaker 2: fine Italian wines, laughing at all the stupid beer drinking
• 2:16:00
  Speaker 2: Germans that have paid for it all. And so you
• 2:16:04
  Speaker 2: have this select few that are controlling all the resources
• 2:16:08
  Speaker 2: and demanding for salvation that you give to this institution.
• 2:16:13
  Speaker 2: So what happens is the Reformation happens and that whole
• 2:16:15
  Speaker 2: system gets flipped on its head. Now the Bible is
• 2:16:18
  Speaker 2: in your hands. You can read the Bible. You don't
• 2:16:20
  Speaker 2: have to give to an institution because we've burned most
• 2:16:22
  Speaker 2: of them down or broken all the stained glass. No
• 2:16:24
  Speaker 2: one wants to go anymore. And now this is the
• 2:16:27
  Speaker 2: birth of marketing in the church too. So what does
• 2:16:29
  Speaker 2: the Vatican do? Well, we have good art. So they
• 2:16:31
  Speaker 2: bring in all these amazing artists and painters and they
• 2:16:34
  Speaker 2: build the Basilica. So boom, marketing the church has officially begun.
• 2:16:38
  Speaker 2: And so the Protestant Reformation happens. Everybody's faith is their own. Again,
• 2:16:43
  Speaker 2: because it's you doing the work. It's me having to read.
• 2:16:47
  Speaker 2: It's me having to be in this body, the small
• 2:16:49
  Speaker 2: ecclesia and talk about it. And church went organic again.
• 2:16:52
  Speaker 2: So that organism starts moving through. It moves to the US.
• 2:16:55
  Speaker 2: Now the organism is moving across the US because America's
• 2:17:00
  Speaker 2: being founded and discovered. All the pilgrims are pushing over.
• 2:17:03
  Speaker 2: They've got that Bible, literally that Bible. came across with
• 2:17:07
  Speaker 2: pilgrims and they're reading around campfires to each other. And boom,
• 2:17:12
  Speaker 2: what happens? America gets established, cities get built, churches start
• 2:17:15
  Speaker 2: building buildings again. So it's no longer just around campfires
• 2:17:18
  Speaker 2: and people moving. Now we got buildings, we got overhead.
• 2:17:22
  Speaker 2: Flash forward to today, we've just built many Vatican's all
• 2:17:26
  Speaker 2: over again. There's not one Vatican though, there's 400,000 now.
• 2:17:28
  Speaker 2: Does that make sense? 400,000? So there's 400,000 churches in
• 2:17:31
  Speaker 2: the US. And so where I'm going with this is
• 2:17:36
  Speaker 2: the Protestant Reformation tore down a monarchy, but look at
• 2:17:40
  Speaker 2: every church in the US today, it's all monarchies. All
• 2:17:43
  Speaker 2: the powers at the top, there's a select few that
• 2:17:45
  Speaker 2: control the money, and they say everybody give out of
• 2:17:48
  Speaker 2: faith and we'll do, because we are anointed, what God
• 2:17:51
  Speaker 2: says we should do with your money. So this is
• 2:17:54
  Speaker 2: just the Protestant Reformation 2.0. And it's now. Because enough
• 2:17:59
  Speaker 2: people are frustrated and sick of it that the religion
• 2:18:01
  Speaker 2: business is the first, I think, of many stories to
• 2:18:06
  Speaker 2: come out where it's going to reform the church. And
• 2:18:10
  Speaker 2: reformations are not fun. And so now it's, so to
• 2:18:14
  Speaker 2: your point in the beginning, with your gentleman's question on
• 2:18:17
  Speaker 2: Patreon was, are you here just to point out a
• 2:18:20
  Speaker 2: problem or bring a solution? We are here to point
• 2:18:23
  Speaker 2: out the problem, but then bring a solution. So hopefully
• 2:18:26
  Speaker 2: the reformation can be sped up a little bit, if
• 2:18:29
  Speaker 2: that makes sense. Yeah.
• 2:18:31
  Speaker 1: Let's get into tithing. We'll get into the, how we
• 2:18:33
  Speaker 1: fix this at the end.
• 2:18:35
  Speaker 2: Tithing. So churches need money. The businesses need money to run,
• 2:18:39
  Speaker 2: to your point. Their salaries, insurances, operational cost, overhead, you
• 2:18:44
  Speaker 2: name it. So there's two ways to get that money.
• 2:18:47
  Speaker 2: One is through tithing, which is an Old Testament biblical term.
• 2:18:52
  Speaker 2: And then two is through just generous giving. Give out
• 2:18:55
  Speaker 2: of love. You know, it's more Christ-centered. So tithing in
• 2:19:01
  Speaker 2: the early founding of America, churches didn't tithe. Nowhere in
• 2:19:04
  Speaker 2: the history or literature does any pastor ever require tithes.
• 2:19:08
  Speaker 2: when we read through sermons and whatnot. It wasn't until
• 2:19:12
  Speaker 2: the Civil War, when America was really broke, that we
• 2:19:15
  Speaker 2: start seeing tithing come back up. And it's because churches
• 2:19:18
  Speaker 2: were poor. And so churches, pastors went back through the
• 2:19:22
  Speaker 2: Bible and they went to the Old Testament and the
• 2:19:25
  Speaker 2: story of Moses coming off Mount Sinai, he brings what's
• 2:19:28
  Speaker 2: called the Mosaic laws off the mountain, which is the
• 2:19:32
  Speaker 2: 10 commandments and the set of laws to rule Israel.
• 2:19:38
  Speaker 2: And this is a really big point. At this moment
• 2:19:40
  Speaker 2: in history, politics and religion were combined. They were not separate.
• 2:19:44
  Speaker 2: In America, they're separate. Back then, they were not separate.
• 2:19:48
  Speaker 2: Within those Mosaic laws, there's three tithes. And a tithe
• 2:19:54
  Speaker 2: literally translates to a tenth. So when you hear someone
• 2:19:58
  Speaker 2: say a tithe, it means one tenth. That is, it
• 2:20:02
  Speaker 2: just means a tenth. So there was three tithes. There
• 2:20:06
  Speaker 2: was the festival tithe, the Levitical tithe and then the
• 2:20:09
  Speaker 2: charity tithe. The charity tithe was taken every third year.
• 2:20:13
  Speaker 2: So technically, you're supposed to be giving 23.3% of what
• 2:20:19
  Speaker 2: you have to the temple, not 10%. If you point
• 2:20:23
  Speaker 2: to the Mosaic covenants, if you're a pastor that says,
• 2:20:26
  Speaker 2: I preach tithing, which is the Kenneth Copelands of the world,
• 2:20:30
  Speaker 2: the Russell Johnsons of the world, most prosperity pastors point
• 2:20:34
  Speaker 2: to tithing. So from the very baseline, their argument is
• 2:20:39
  Speaker 2: flawed because they just picked one of the three. And
• 2:20:43
  Speaker 2: the one they picked is the Levitical tithe because they've
• 2:20:46
  Speaker 2: positioned themselves as the Levites who took care of the temple.
• 2:20:51
  Speaker 2: And so here's the kicker. You have the Jewish temple
• 2:20:55
  Speaker 2: where you brought your tithes, you'd slit your animals' throats.
• 2:20:57
  Speaker 2: The Levites never took a salary. They owned nothing. And
• 2:21:01
  Speaker 2: are you a hunter? Okay, we're gonna get into some
• 2:21:05
  Speaker 2: nerdy stuff about hunting and slaughtering animals real quick. So
• 2:21:08
  Speaker 2: the Levites' sole purpose was to upkeep the temple and
• 2:21:12
  Speaker 2: bring your tithes and offerings to God and offer them
• 2:21:16
  Speaker 2: to God. You could not do it. And so a
• 2:21:20
  Speaker 2: couple of rules. Levites could not own any land and
• 2:21:22
  Speaker 2: they took no money. So these current pastors are positioning
• 2:21:27
  Speaker 2: themselves as the Levitical priest. So right there, they're flawed.
• 2:21:31
  Speaker 2: If you want to mirror the Old Testament, you can't
• 2:21:32
  Speaker 2: take a salary, you can't own land. And then, yeah,
• 2:21:35
  Speaker 2: you could, I guess, ask for a tithe. But you
• 2:21:38
  Speaker 2: have to ask for all three. So the tithe, this
• 2:21:41
  Speaker 2: tithe in particular, is I would offer my goat, my lamb,
• 2:21:45
  Speaker 2: my sheep, my cow, whatever I'm bringing to the altar.
• 2:21:48
  Speaker 2: The Levites would slit its throat, process it. And then
• 2:21:51
  Speaker 2: God asked for one thing, the fat of the animal,
• 2:21:55
  Speaker 2: as the story goes. So God says, burn the fat
• 2:21:58
  Speaker 2: to me. as I like it, it's a sweet smelling aroma.
• 2:22:01
  Speaker 2: And then they'd put the rest of the animal in
• 2:22:03
  Speaker 2: a pot and basically boil it down. The Levite, this
• 2:22:07
  Speaker 2: is where the Levite would benefit from the tithe. They
• 2:22:09
  Speaker 2: would take one back quarter of the animal. I can't
• 2:22:12
  Speaker 2: remember if it's the left or right because they have
• 2:22:14
  Speaker 2: to feed their family. So they would take a quarter
• 2:22:17
  Speaker 2: of your tithe and then guess who got the rest
• 2:22:19
  Speaker 2: of the tithe back? You did and you fed your
• 2:22:23
  Speaker 2: family with it. But the whole point was to bring
• 2:22:26
  Speaker 2: this animal bleed it out, burn the fat to God,
• 2:22:30
  Speaker 2: you as the Levite would get one of the quarters
• 2:22:31
  Speaker 2: and then I would take the rest back and eat it.
• 2:22:34
  Speaker 2: So that is the point of the tithe. It's saying,
• 2:22:37
  Speaker 2: I'm bringing this as an offering to you, but here's
• 2:22:40
  Speaker 2: the kicker. You only ever had to tithe if you
• 2:22:43
  Speaker 2: were Jewish and you owned land in Israel. If you
• 2:22:47
  Speaker 2: were a sojourner or a Gentile, you did not tithe.
• 2:22:49
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 2:22:52
  Speaker 2: So the tithe rules of the Old Testament, Mosaic law, Jewish, landowner,
• 2:22:58
  Speaker 2: and then what came off the land. So the story goes,
• 2:23:01
  Speaker 2: since Israel, since the biblical story is Israel was a gift,
• 2:23:05
  Speaker 2: the land was a gift to the Jews by God,
• 2:23:08
  Speaker 2: God required something off of that. And that was agriculture
• 2:23:12
  Speaker 2: and livestock off the land itself. So when you read
• 2:23:16
  Speaker 2: the old, or when Jesus talks about tithing of mint
• 2:23:18
  Speaker 2: and dill, it's what's coming off your property. It has
• 2:23:21
  Speaker 2: nothing to do with money. So, That pastor's positioning himself
• 2:23:26
  Speaker 2: as the Levite, which the Levites are gone. So you're
• 2:23:30
  Speaker 2: not a Levitical priest. And then he's positioning his church,
• 2:23:34
  Speaker 2: his modern day institution as the temple. Guess what? Christ said,
• 2:23:38
  Speaker 2: God and Jesus, he said, we don't dwell in temples.
• 2:23:42
  Speaker 2: No building holds God. You are the temple now, Sean.
• 2:23:47
  Speaker 2: So our very Christ that all these churches preach say,
• 2:23:51
  Speaker 2: we are the temple, the building is not the temple.
• 2:23:54
  Speaker 2: But to fund it, we say, the building is the
• 2:23:56
  Speaker 2: temple and I am the Levitical priest. So it's all botched.
• 2:24:01
  Speaker 2: And so this is why- This is.
• 2:24:02
  Speaker 1: Why it's so important to get all these different perspectives.
• 2:24:06
  Speaker 1: Because what I've noticed through my journey is that people
• 2:24:11
  Speaker 1: will cherry pick parts of scripture to fulfill their own
• 2:24:16
  Speaker 1: desires and dreams and stuff like that.
• 2:24:19
  Speaker 2: Well, and don't get me wrong, This is what I
• 2:24:22
  Speaker 2: encourage everybody to do. The first time the Bible really
• 2:24:26
  Speaker 2: came at me, and it came alive, was when I
• 2:24:28
  Speaker 2: read it as a history book. I was not here,
• 2:24:31
  Speaker 2: I'm like, God, just let me read it as a story.
• 2:24:34
  Speaker 2: And as soon as I did that, it came alive,
• 2:24:36
  Speaker 2: because then these wars meant something. These prophets being martyred
• 2:24:39
  Speaker 2: meant something. Then I wasn't trying to cherry pick anything
• 2:24:43
  Speaker 2: out of it. So you move to the New Testament,
• 2:24:46
  Speaker 2: Christ gives very specific details on how to give. And
• 2:24:51
  Speaker 2: like I said, if you're a Christ follower, everything follows
• 2:24:53
  Speaker 2: with you, your resources, your time, your talent, everything you have.
• 2:24:57
  Speaker 2: And so Christ told you to be very generous. And
• 2:25:00
  Speaker 2: he said in Matthew 25, 31, help the hungry, help
• 2:25:04
  Speaker 2: the thirsty, help the naked, help the prisoner, help the sojourner.
• 2:25:08
  Speaker 2: And then he was obsessed with helping the orphans and
• 2:25:10
  Speaker 2: the widows. So if that is Christ's main focus, help
• 2:25:15
  Speaker 2: the needy, help the helpless. I look at the institutional
• 2:25:19
  Speaker 2: church today, when I said only 6 cents of every
• 2:25:22
  Speaker 2: dollar even leaves the walls, we're not doing that job,
• 2:25:25
  Speaker 2: not even remotely close to it. Sure, there's gonna be
• 2:25:28
  Speaker 2: fraud and abuse. You can never get that out of
• 2:25:30
  Speaker 2: a system, but our system should at least somewhat mirror
• 2:25:34
  Speaker 2: our quote-unquote savior, and it's antithetical to it. All with
• 2:25:42
  Speaker 2: good intentions, by the way. That's the kicker, is all
• 2:25:45
  Speaker 2: of this was built with good intentions.
• 2:25:53
  Speaker 1: What are we missing before we move into what you'd
• 2:25:57
  Speaker 1: like to see and how do we, what is the
• 2:25:59
  Speaker 1: good news? You said you had good news at the beginning.
• 2:26:03
  Speaker 2: Oh, great news. Christians and American Christians in particular are
• 2:26:06
  Speaker 2: the most generous people in the world. We give, and
• 2:26:11
  Speaker 2: this is my, every Christ follower out there, you are
• 2:26:17
  Speaker 2: trying to emulate your Savior and you can see that
• 2:26:19
  Speaker 2: in your giving. Like, hats off to you. but that
• 2:26:24
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean we just give and let it go. And
• 2:26:29
  Speaker 2: some of the worst offenders right now that are being
• 2:26:32
  Speaker 2: exposed and many are in prison always say, hey, Sean,
• 2:26:35
  Speaker 2: your money is not yours, it's God's. So give me
• 2:26:38
  Speaker 2: 10% and we're gonna do what we feel we need
• 2:26:41
  Speaker 2: to do with it and leave it up to God.
• 2:26:43
  Speaker 2: I would argue Christ would disagree with that entirely because
• 2:26:48
  Speaker 2: Christ says, Sean, pick up your cross and follow me.
• 2:26:52
  Speaker 2: And what he is saying there, I think there's an
• 2:26:55
  Speaker 2: expectation baked in that you will be the light of
• 2:26:59
  Speaker 2: the world. You will spread my gospel. And what that
• 2:27:04
  Speaker 2: means is I will make sure the limited resources I
• 2:27:07
  Speaker 2: have create impact for his cause. So I will actually
• 2:27:13
  Speaker 2: demand accountability with my money that I give and demand
• 2:27:16
  Speaker 2: stewardship of that money because it's a limited resource. I'm
• 2:27:19
  Speaker 2: just not going to give it away and let you
• 2:27:20
  Speaker 2: do whatever you want with it. Like, no, Christ told
• 2:27:23
  Speaker 2: me to make disciples of men, to heal the sick.
• 2:27:26
  Speaker 2: I am here to do that, to feed the hungry,
• 2:27:29
  Speaker 2: to clothe the naked, you know, to visit the prisoner
• 2:27:32
  Speaker 2: and the sojourner and help the sojourner. Like that is
• 2:27:34
  Speaker 2: what we're here to do. So, hey, if I give
• 2:27:35
  Speaker 2: five bucks, I want to make sure that five bucks
• 2:27:38
  Speaker 2: goes towards the cause and sure, you're leading the organization,
• 2:27:41
  Speaker 2: you deserve a salary. You deserve your kids to be paid,
• 2:27:44
  Speaker 2: without a doubt. But that doesn't mean you inure yourself
• 2:27:48
  Speaker 2: off of it, right? Steward the money well. And the
• 2:27:51
  Speaker 2: way we do that is by bringing accountability into that system,
• 2:27:54
  Speaker 2: into those churches, into those auxiliaries, into those conventions, into
• 2:27:57
  Speaker 2: those associations. or we're just gonna have trillion dollar hedge
• 2:28:01
  Speaker 2: funds everywhere with every church eventually. And then the church
• 2:28:06
  Speaker 2: becomes the state again, which has happened in the past
• 2:28:08
  Speaker 2: as well. Paula White. I wanna get to Paula White
• 2:28:14
  Speaker 2: before we... Paula White is the faith advisor to our
• 2:28:18
  Speaker 2: current sitting president, Trump. We were given by an individual,
• 2:28:27
  Speaker 2: her bylaws. So remember, in the beginning, I was talking
• 2:28:30
  Speaker 2: about we have to separate the business from the true church.
• 2:28:34
  Speaker 2: Paula White is a corporation. It is a business and
• 2:28:37
  Speaker 2: businesses have bylaws. Her bylaws are stamped confidential on every
• 2:28:41
  Speaker 2: single page. In her bylaws, it says she can never
• 2:28:47
  Speaker 2: be fired. In her bylaws, it says she can never
• 2:28:50
  Speaker 2: be removed until death. When she dies or resigns, the
• 2:28:56
  Speaker 2: business gets passed off to her son. There is no
• 2:28:59
  Speaker 2: vote on who takes it over. They have a board
• 2:29:01
  Speaker 2: of directors. The board of directors can make decisions. She
• 2:29:04
  Speaker 2: can fire any board of director at any time. If
• 2:29:10
  Speaker 2: she doesn't like the vote of the board of directors,
• 2:29:12
  Speaker 2: she can veto it. She has full carte blanche reign
• 2:29:17
  Speaker 2: of that organization. So she can say she's a corporation
• 2:29:20
  Speaker 2: with bylaws and a board of directors, but it's just,
• 2:29:22
  Speaker 2: it's all smoke and mirrors. She is literally a monarchy.
• 2:29:26
  Speaker 2: And then the kicker is, In those bylaws, it says
• 2:29:29
  Speaker 2: you will find Jesus through your pastor president, Paula White.
• 2:29:37
  Speaker 2: So it says, Sean, if you go to Paula White's church,
• 2:29:39
  Speaker 2: you can't get to Jesus. You have to come through me.
• 2:29:42
  Speaker 2: So again, she's positioned herself as the middleman. And then
• 2:29:47
  Speaker 2: she's out there schlepping thousand dollars, you know, on TV
• 2:29:49
  Speaker 2: and saying you're gonna get a blessing. Like it's, this
• 2:29:52
  Speaker 2: issue goes all the way to the White House. And
• 2:29:55
  Speaker 2: then this is the woman who's giving our sitting president
• 2:30:01
  Speaker 2: advice on Christ. Her entire system is antithetical to the
• 2:30:06
  Speaker 2: very Christ that she says she worships. You have to
• 2:30:11
  Speaker 2: practice what you preach. And that's the problem is people
• 2:30:15
  Speaker 2: today in the lay Christian are looking at the pulpit
• 2:30:19
  Speaker 2: and even Paula White might have some decent message, but
• 2:30:24
  Speaker 2: then you look at the organization and it's, it's running
• 2:30:28
  Speaker 2: in contradiction to the very message from the pulpit. It's, hey,
• 2:30:32
  Speaker 2: don't ask for accountability. Don't ask for transparency. Hey, you know,
• 2:30:36
  Speaker 2: he sexually abused some kids. It's a moral failure. Robert
• 2:30:40
  Speaker 2: Morrison Dallas, oh, he raped a 12-year-old. It's a moral failure.
• 2:30:43
  Speaker 2: It's not criminal. He was doing his best. He had
• 2:30:47
  Speaker 2: good intentions. Like, that's what we chalk it up to.
• 2:30:50
  Speaker 2: And so, as lay Christians are looking at this right
• 2:30:52
  Speaker 2: now and looking at the institutional church going, Everything's running
• 2:30:56
  Speaker 2: antithetical to Jesus. What's coming from the pulpit is nice
• 2:31:00
  Speaker 2: with good intentions, but there's this collision right now. And
• 2:31:02
  Speaker 2: it's a trillion dollar collision running straight into Jesus. And
• 2:31:07
  Speaker 2: that's where we're at. And so the religion business is
• 2:31:10
  Speaker 2: right at that epicenter.
• 2:31:11
  Speaker 3: Man.
• 2:31:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It'd be great if we get some transparency.
• 2:31:19
  Speaker 2: That's all we're asking for with the religion business.
• 2:31:21
  Speaker 1: I think that's all you'd need to correct... maybe not even,
• 2:31:28
  Speaker 1: maybe correct is the wrong word, but people need the
• 2:31:30
  Speaker 1: transparency to make the decisions on who they're gonna follow,
• 2:31:34
  Speaker 1: where they're gonna go.
• 2:31:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and people are smart. This is the thing. So remember,
• 2:31:37
  Speaker 2: there's 400,000 mini-Vaticans that are all just monarchies, all the
• 2:31:41
  Speaker 2: power's at the top. You just need to flip it.
• 2:31:44
  Speaker 2: It's democracy. Power needs to go back to the people.
• 2:31:48
  Speaker 2: People need to say, hey, I need to know where
• 2:31:49
  Speaker 2: my money's going. And then they, once they are educated,
• 2:31:52
  Speaker 2: will make the right decisions. And so we have a
• 2:31:54
  Speaker 2: list of questions on our website that once you watch
• 2:31:57
  Speaker 2: the show, you can download and set up a meeting
• 2:31:59
  Speaker 2: with your pastors. They're very juvenile questions, but most people
• 2:32:04
  Speaker 2: just don't know how to articulate it because no one
• 2:32:06
  Speaker 2: knows and has ever looked inside the machine. So it's
• 2:32:09
  Speaker 2: a dozen questions or so, and hey, just take it
• 2:32:11
  Speaker 2: in and be like, hey, pastor, I'd like to know
• 2:32:12
  Speaker 2: this and this.
• 2:32:13
  Speaker 1: You know the questions?
• 2:32:15
  Speaker 2: It's really simple. We've talked about it. It's like, what's
• 2:32:18
  Speaker 2: the top two to five people's salary? Like congregants should
• 2:32:22
  Speaker 2: know that. Does our pastor take a housing allowance? And
• 2:32:25
  Speaker 2: if so, how much? Do you take a car allowance?
• 2:32:27
  Speaker 2: Do you take a housing allowance? Who's the board of directors?
• 2:32:30
  Speaker 2: Because churches don't have an obligation to say who their
• 2:32:32
  Speaker 2: board of directors are. And so most of the time
• 2:32:36
  Speaker 2: it's just family and friends and big donors. And so
• 2:32:40
  Speaker 2: you're literally just, it's so sad, but a lot of
• 2:32:44
  Speaker 2: these organizations are leveraging the very vulnerable populations that we
• 2:32:49
  Speaker 2: were told to protect and nurture. And And so again,
• 2:32:54
  Speaker 2: it's just simple questions like that. It's what, this is
• 2:32:57
  Speaker 2: my kicker, it's what every secular nonprofit has to declare
• 2:33:01
  Speaker 2: on their 990. Every publicly traded company has all this
• 2:33:04
  Speaker 2: information out in public. If you're an investor, you know
• 2:33:08
  Speaker 2: every salary, you know where the, you see P & Ls,
• 2:33:11
  Speaker 2: we're not asking for anything else than any other business.
• 2:33:13
  Speaker 2: So that's why you have to separate the ecclesia from
• 2:33:16
  Speaker 2: the building and the business and say, it's a business,
• 2:33:18
  Speaker 2: run it like a business. And this is, our saying is,
• 2:33:21
  Speaker 2: Transparency demands accountability. Accountability demands reform and reform demands impact.
• 2:33:29
  Speaker 2: And so we're just bringing the transparency piece in. And
• 2:33:32
  Speaker 2: then we know and we have faith that Christians will
• 2:33:36
  Speaker 2: bring the accountability because of it. And the rest is
• 2:33:39
  Speaker 2: up to God and it'll happen. So transparency, you nailed it.
• 2:33:42
  Speaker 2: Just turn that light on. And the rats and cockroaches
• 2:33:45
  Speaker 2: are gonna scurry. And then John 3 talks about this.
• 2:33:50
  Speaker 2: Christ came into the world to be the light, but
• 2:33:51
  Speaker 2: men love the darkness rather than the light for fear
• 2:33:54
  Speaker 2: that his deeds will be exposed. And so you just
• 2:33:58
  Speaker 2: turn that light on and people, and then it says,
• 2:34:00
  Speaker 2: and those who come to the life are looking for
• 2:34:02
  Speaker 2: the light, are looking for Christ. And there's great pastors
• 2:34:05
  Speaker 2: out there who have hit us up on social media,
• 2:34:07
  Speaker 2: who have called us. We've sat on hundreds of calls
• 2:34:11
  Speaker 2: where they are coming to the light. They're like, we
• 2:34:12
  Speaker 2: get it, dude. This is a broken system. Let's be
• 2:34:13
  Speaker 2: a part of a solution. And then you also have
• 2:34:16
  Speaker 2: the rats and the cockroaches scurrying. And so... Reform begins today, actually.
• 2:34:23
  Speaker 1: Have you seen any churches start to implement transparency since
• 2:34:31
  Speaker 1: you've been doing this?
• 2:34:33
  Speaker 2: You know, the show is only, we soft launched a
• 2:34:35
  Speaker 2: few weeks ago. So it's already having a shock in
• 2:34:39
  Speaker 2: the system. And a lot of them are saying, okay,
• 2:34:41
  Speaker 2: what do we do?
• 2:34:43
  Speaker 1: That's... What do we do?
• 2:34:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like, well, you just be transparent. Yeah, and
• 2:34:49
  Speaker 2: so- Open the books up. Yeah, open the books up.
• 2:34:53
  Speaker 1: That's what you do.
• 2:34:53
  Speaker 2: All you do is you open the books up and
• 2:34:55
  Speaker 2: your congregants will know.
• 2:34:57
  Speaker 1: And so we are seeing pastors- So they do, sorry
• 2:35:00
  Speaker 1: to cut you off.
• 2:35:01
  Speaker 2: No, no, you're good.
• 2:35:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, go for it. They do know what's right and wrong.
• 2:35:05
  Speaker 1: This is, I mean, this is, what do we do
• 2:35:07
  Speaker 1: about this Epstein stuff? Release the fucking files.
• 2:35:10
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 2:35:11
  Speaker 1: Release them.
• 2:35:11
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 2:35:12
  Speaker 1: Just like you said you were going to.
• 2:35:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:35:15
  Speaker 1: You know? Be transparent. That's what everybody wants. We just
• 2:35:19
  Speaker 1: want to know where the money's going. That's it. And
• 2:35:22
  Speaker 1: then everybody can make their own decision on if they
• 2:35:24
  Speaker 1: want to stay here or not. 100%.
• 2:35:28
  Speaker 2: It's not rocket science, right?
• 2:35:30
  Speaker 1: But they won't do it because they know it's wrong.
• 2:35:35
  Speaker 2: They will, though, if the money moves. And so that's
• 2:35:38
  Speaker 2: our goal. A brilliant man who helped the LDS Church
• 2:35:43
  Speaker 2: grow to $ 300 billion. one of their main investors, he
• 2:35:47
  Speaker 2: blew the whistle in 2019 on it. And that's how
• 2:35:49
  Speaker 2: that whole system even got exposed because churches don't have
• 2:35:52
  Speaker 2: to be transparent, but he blew the whistle with 60 minutes.
• 2:35:56
  Speaker 2: He goes, Nathan, I don't know if you realize what
• 2:36:00
  Speaker 2: you guys are doing, but he goes, the smartest minds
• 2:36:03
  Speaker 2: in the world see everything as rivers. So rivers of capital,
• 2:36:07
  Speaker 2: rivers of humans, rivers of resource, rivers of rare earth minerals.
• 2:36:12
  Speaker 2: And he goes, you're, tackling a trillion dollar river. And
• 2:36:17
  Speaker 2: he's like, you're at the river right now. And he goes,
• 2:36:21
  Speaker 2: smart people don't damn the river off, which means we're
• 2:36:25
  Speaker 2: not just going to point out a problem. He goes,
• 2:36:27
  Speaker 2: smart people divert rivers. And he goes, so where do
• 2:36:31
  Speaker 2: you want to divert the river? And all I said
• 2:36:35
  Speaker 2: was to accountable organizations because there's good people, good pastors,
• 2:36:39
  Speaker 2: good nonprofits, great nonprofits out there doing amazing work. I
• 2:36:42
  Speaker 2: want to divert that trillion to them. And he goes, cool,
• 2:36:44
  Speaker 2: go do it. So that's all we're doing. And that's
• 2:36:47
  Speaker 2: what Broken Shepherds is, is an app that just diverts money.
• 2:36:51
  Speaker 2: It shows the accountable organizations and the shady ones side
• 2:36:55
  Speaker 2: by side. And you see it. And then you get
• 2:36:57
  Speaker 2: to figure out where you, based on educating the donor,
• 2:37:00
  Speaker 2: you decide where you give your money.
• 2:37:03
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 2:37:04
  Speaker 2: It's not rocket science.
• 2:37:05
  Speaker 1: What kind of blowback are you getting?
• 2:37:11
  Speaker 2: We've had a lot of hate, you know. I can imagine.
• 2:37:14
  Speaker 1: You just flipped, how many people go to church? You
• 2:37:19
  Speaker 1: talk about that?
• 2:37:19
  Speaker 2: A hundred something million go to church in the US.
• 2:37:21
  Speaker 1: A hundred something million people. You just flipped our entire
• 2:37:23
  Speaker 1: world upside down.
• 2:37:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:37:25
  Speaker 2: The majority of, I think there's 2.3 billion Christians.
• 2:37:27
  Speaker 1: Their entire life.
• 2:37:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:37:29
  Speaker 1: Just got flipped upside down because of that. Mm-hmm.
• 2:37:33
  Speaker 2: And, but we're not, like, that's the thing. The Bible
• 2:37:36
  Speaker 2: hasn't changed.
• 2:37:36
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 2:37:37
  Speaker 2: You know, the Bible always has this concept of a
• 2:37:39
  Speaker 2: refiner's fire. You know, refining is not easy. It's painful.
• 2:37:44
  Speaker 2: But it burns off impurities. And so we always say, hey,
• 2:37:48
  Speaker 2: burn it down And what's left standing is of God.
• 2:37:52
  Speaker 2: And what isn't left standing ain't a God, that's of man.
• 2:37:56
  Speaker 2: And then out of the death of what dies, beautiful
• 2:37:59
  Speaker 2: things will resurrect. Like that's why Christ is such a fast,
• 2:38:03
  Speaker 2: his life, his death, his resurrection, everything is so fascinating
• 2:38:06
  Speaker 2: when you start mapping it out over life. A great
• 2:38:09
  Speaker 2: example is Gateway. Gateway is a church outside Dallas, massive
• 2:38:13
  Speaker 2: mega church. And the lead pastor was Robert Morris. come
• 2:38:19
  Speaker 2: to find out he raped a 12 year old. And
• 2:38:24
  Speaker 2: so they let him go. And instead of saying, hey,
• 2:38:29
  Speaker 2: this whole system is rotted. Like this man built this organization.
• 2:38:34
  Speaker 2: Everything about it is tied to him. What should happen
• 2:38:37
  Speaker 2: is you should let this business die and let all
• 2:38:40
  Speaker 2: those brilliant Christians sitting in those pews with good intentions,
• 2:38:44
  Speaker 2: with a love for Christ, with families go out into
• 2:38:47
  Speaker 2: their community and beautiful things will resurrect. But instead, what
• 2:38:51
  Speaker 2: is the board of directors doing? We're a $ 50 million
• 2:38:53
  Speaker 2: a year organization. We got to hold onto this. They're
• 2:38:56
  Speaker 2: still good here. And it's like, nah, dude, that's like,
• 2:38:59
  Speaker 2: let it die. And beautiful things will resurrect out of that.
• 2:39:02
  Speaker 2: New churches, new home churches, new mega churches, new whatever,
• 2:39:06
  Speaker 2: but beautiful things will resurrect. And I am so confident
• 2:39:11
  Speaker 2: that in a decade, the religious landscape in America will
• 2:39:14
  Speaker 2: look radically different and it will be ran with accountability
• 2:39:18
  Speaker 2: and transparency and the church will be the light of
• 2:39:21
  Speaker 2: the world. Because guess what? We have a trillion dollars
• 2:39:24
  Speaker 2: a year to literally solve the top 30 global social issues.
• 2:39:28
  Speaker 2: The top 20, here's how crazy, let's get into some
• 2:39:30
  Speaker 2: fun stuff. The top 20 global social issues can be
• 2:39:33
  Speaker 2: solved for around 35 billion a year. That's ending deaths
• 2:39:38
  Speaker 2: from malaria, tuberculosis, just really low hanging fruits that aren't sexy.
• 2:39:43
  Speaker 2: And this is why governments don't solve them. Just if
• 2:39:47
  Speaker 2: we brought accountability into the system and stopped some of
• 2:39:50
  Speaker 2: the theft that goes on internally, the Christian church could
• 2:39:53
  Speaker 2: solve the top 20 global social issues and it would
• 2:39:56
  Speaker 2: affect no one's bottom line. And so what I mean
• 2:39:59
  Speaker 2: by that is 92 billion with a B every year
• 2:40:02
  Speaker 2: is stolen by church staff from their coffers. 92 billion.
• 2:40:07
  Speaker 2: 92 billion.
• 2:40:08
  Speaker 1: Almost 10%.
• 2:40:12
  Speaker 2: Just bring accountability in. And like, let's say we drop
• 2:40:14
  Speaker 2: that number to 50 billion. The Christian church could solve
• 2:40:17
  Speaker 2: the top 20 global social issues just with that savings.
• 2:40:20
  Speaker 2: So you could still have your megachurches and planes and
• 2:40:22
  Speaker 2: all that. We're not even changing the system. Now think
• 2:40:25
  Speaker 2: if we actually reformed the system and 20 cents of
• 2:40:28
  Speaker 2: every dollar started going to impact. The Christian church could
• 2:40:32
  Speaker 2: radically transform the world, be the light of the world tomorrow,
• 2:40:35
  Speaker 2: still have your buildings, still have your private planes. You
• 2:40:37
  Speaker 2: just need to bring accountability and transparency into it. So
• 2:40:40
  Speaker 2: when I hear a pastor say, it's because we don't
• 2:40:43
  Speaker 2: have enough money, I'm like, you are full of crap.
• 2:40:48
  Speaker 2: You have no accountability and transparency. That's the problem. And
• 2:40:51
  Speaker 2: so bring that into the system and the church could
• 2:40:53
  Speaker 2: be the light of the world tomorrow, man. And that's
• 2:40:56
  Speaker 2: what's so exciting is Christians are the most generous people
• 2:40:58
  Speaker 2: in the world because we try to emulate our savior,
• 2:41:02
  Speaker 2: but then leadership and wolves, Bible talks a lot about wolves,
• 2:41:06
  Speaker 2: you know, devouring widows' houses. And so that's what we're doing.
• 2:41:11
  Speaker 2: The institution is literally doing everything the prophets of the
• 2:41:15
  Speaker 2: Old Testament preached against and spoke of and everything Christ
• 2:41:18
  Speaker 2: spoke of that he was against. Turning my father's house
• 2:41:22
  Speaker 2: into money and devouring widows' houses.
• 2:41:27
  Speaker 1: So back to the original question. I mean, is the,
• 2:41:31
  Speaker 1: we've talked about some of the blowback, you know, offline
• 2:41:34
  Speaker 1: on breaks before we started the interview. I mean, where
• 2:41:37
  Speaker 1: is the majority of the blowback coming from? Is it
• 2:41:39
  Speaker 1: from people's worlds that were flipped upside down and they realize,
• 2:41:43
  Speaker 1: oh shit, I've been wrong this entire time? Yeah.
• 2:41:46
  Speaker 2: Sorry, I had a head injury, so it's hard for
• 2:41:47
  Speaker 2: me to remember what I've said here and outside, but
• 2:41:49
  Speaker 2: there's like two splits of the world. You have your congregant,
• 2:41:53
  Speaker 2: and if they watch it, they are so supportive. I
• 2:41:57
  Speaker 2: was at a, I'll call it a religious institution a
• 2:42:00
  Speaker 2: couple Sundays ago, and this woman came up and she's like,
• 2:42:03
  Speaker 2: are you the religion business? And I'm like, yeah. And
• 2:42:05
  Speaker 2: she just hugged me. And then she just walked off.
• 2:42:09
  Speaker 2: And that's the response we're getting from the average Christian
• 2:42:13
  Speaker 2: who wants to read that Bible and deepen their faith.
• 2:42:16
  Speaker 2: The only blowback we're getting is from people who make
• 2:42:19
  Speaker 2: their living off the institution.
• 2:42:21
  Speaker 1: What is the blowback?
• 2:42:25
  Speaker 2: We've had security teams call us and say that there's,
• 2:42:28
  Speaker 2: you know, bad things are going to happen to us.
• 2:42:30
  Speaker 2: And one person in particular paid a hundred grand to
• 2:42:35
  Speaker 2: dig up dirt and then this security detail said, put
• 2:42:39
  Speaker 2: a hit.
• 2:42:39
  Speaker 1: Out, put a hit out. Yeah.
• 2:42:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:42:42
  Speaker 1: Well, that's not very Christian.
• 2:42:44
  Speaker 3: Like, no, no.
• 2:42:47
  Speaker 1: And, uh, how are you handling it?
• 2:42:50
  Speaker 2: Uh, security. And, and I firmly believe, um, do.
• 2:42:57
  Speaker 1: You worry about your family?
• 2:42:59
  Speaker 2: No, I firmly believe God's got, got me. And, um,
• 2:43:04
  Speaker 2: we take precautions, you know, we're not out there, just
• 2:43:08
  Speaker 2: doing whatever we want. But I think I'm on the
• 2:43:11
  Speaker 2: right side with my creator on this one. And the
• 2:43:16
  Speaker 2: world needs, and one thing we present in episode seven
• 2:43:20
  Speaker 2: is men have, we have abdicated our role as Christian leaders.
• 2:43:25
  Speaker 2: We don't teach our children the Bible anymore. We let
• 2:43:27
  Speaker 2: other people do it. And men, male pastors in particular,
• 2:43:33
  Speaker 2: have chased fame in the stage, in the celebrity, in
• 2:43:35
  Speaker 2: the spotlight, And it's women that have stepped up. And
• 2:43:39
  Speaker 2: I've seen this around the world and you see this
• 2:43:40
  Speaker 2: in the show. Quiet, humble women have stepped up to
• 2:43:45
  Speaker 2: be the hands and feet of God and Jesus. And
• 2:43:47
  Speaker 2: it's time for men to step back up. And I
• 2:43:50
  Speaker 2: look at the founding of America and those founding fathers,
• 2:43:54
  Speaker 2: you know, we talk about politics and religion kind of
• 2:43:56
  Speaker 2: mirroring courses. Those founding fathers died for the cause. They
• 2:44:00
  Speaker 2: put their life on the line. You know, those individuals
• 2:44:03
  Speaker 2: in DC are literally supposed to be public servants That
• 2:44:08
  Speaker 2: is what church leadership needs to become again. We need
• 2:44:11
  Speaker 2: to be servants because Christ said, you are a servant.
• 2:44:14
  Speaker 2: He goes, I came to serve you. I washed your feet,
• 2:44:17
  Speaker 2: do this to others. And instead we like to stand
• 2:44:20
  Speaker 2: on stages and collect money and build buildings and create institutions,
• 2:44:26
  Speaker 2: which again, aren't inherently bad, but it's to ourselves. We're
• 2:44:29
  Speaker 2: building that to ourselves. And so I firmly believe that
• 2:44:36
  Speaker 2: with this reformation, this next generation of young leaders is
• 2:44:39
  Speaker 2: gonna come in with a servant's heart, and the church
• 2:44:42
  Speaker 2: will radically reform. And generosity will not drop, because everybody's like,
• 2:44:47
  Speaker 2: are you afraid that people are gonna stop giving? And
• 2:44:49
  Speaker 2: I'm like, no. Man, if I was like, help, like
• 2:44:54
  Speaker 2: I love, I have single mothers. Here's a great example.
• 2:44:58
  Speaker 2: Christian churches love to promote pro-life. We're marching to DC,
• 2:45:02
  Speaker 2: we're gonna stand on those steps, we're gonna sing songs,
• 2:45:05
  Speaker 2: because we are pro-life. And I've sat down with pastors
• 2:45:08
  Speaker 2: and I've asked this, okay, what do you guys do
• 2:45:09
  Speaker 2: for your single mothers in your town? What do you mean, Nathan? Well,
• 2:45:15
  Speaker 2: you're so pro-life, what do you do? Well, we go
• 2:45:18
  Speaker 2: to DC. Well, I don't care about DC. What do
• 2:45:21
  Speaker 2: you do for the local single mothers in your town?
• 2:45:24
  Speaker 2: And one in particular, they had spent $ 2 million on
• 2:45:26
  Speaker 2: a new childcare facility at their church. And they were
• 2:45:30
  Speaker 2: so proud to show it to me. And I'm like,
• 2:45:32
  Speaker 2: this is awesome. It's like Disneyland, basically. And I said, okay, well,
• 2:45:38
  Speaker 2: you use this every Sunday, right? And they're like, yeah.
• 2:45:41
  Speaker 2: I'm like, why don't you open it for single mothers
• 2:45:44
  Speaker 2: in your neighborhood that are struggling? They can't pay for
• 2:45:47
  Speaker 2: a nanny or a babysitter, but they need to get
• 2:45:49
  Speaker 2: to work. Why don't you say, hey, one of our
• 2:45:52
  Speaker 2: programs is gonna be single mothers if you're so pro-life.
• 2:45:55
  Speaker 2: And their response was literally, well, it would ruin the facility.
• 2:46:01
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, that is the point of the facility,
• 2:46:04
  Speaker 2: but you want it squeaky clean. And there's an organization
• 2:46:09
  Speaker 2: that's very close to Trump, a nonprofit called Samaritan's Purse,
• 2:46:12
  Speaker 2: which we expose in the show or we explore in
• 2:46:14
  Speaker 2: the show. Billy Graham's son, Franklin Graham, runs it now.
• 2:46:19
  Speaker 2: And man, they do good work with refugees in Europe.
• 2:46:24
  Speaker 2: But again, you put a dollar in the top of
• 2:46:25
  Speaker 2: the Samaritan's Purse machine and a penny falls out the bottom.
• 2:46:29
  Speaker 2: And I love it whenever I see, I don't love it.
• 2:46:32
  Speaker 2: It breaks my heart. Whenever I see all their natural
• 2:46:34
  Speaker 2: disaster programs, every truck that pulls out of their spot
• 2:46:39
  Speaker 2: is so perfect. It doesn't have a single scratch. When
• 2:46:42
  Speaker 2: you see them drop in medical aid, that's never been
• 2:46:45
  Speaker 2: used before. And I'm like, what, like you're stockpiling resources.
• 2:46:51
  Speaker 2: And in the last three years, they've doubled their net assets.
• 2:46:55
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, yeah, you do some good work, but
• 2:46:57
  Speaker 2: you're just building a kingdom just like the LDS churches
• 2:47:00
  Speaker 2: and saying, man, look at the good work we're doing
• 2:47:03
  Speaker 2: as you have 2 billion sitting. It's like God never
• 2:47:07
  Speaker 2: told us to store up on earth. He actually said,
• 2:47:09
  Speaker 2: get rid of it. You know, let me be, have
• 2:47:12
  Speaker 2: faith in me. The daily bread has been lost from
• 2:47:15
  Speaker 2: the institution. And I was gonna bring up a hunting analogy.
• 2:47:20
  Speaker 2: God wants the fat, right? Of the animal on the
• 2:47:23
  Speaker 2: altars in the Old Testament. And he said, it's a
• 2:47:25
  Speaker 2: sweet smelling aroma. And as a hunter, when you break
• 2:47:29
  Speaker 2: down an animal and you look at the fat stores,
• 2:47:32
  Speaker 2: this animal took a full six months to put this on.
• 2:47:37
  Speaker 2: And it's gonna burn up over winter. And that animal
• 2:47:40
  Speaker 2: hopes to survive that winter to put it on again, right?
• 2:47:44
  Speaker 2: So is there a correlation between God demanding the fat
• 2:47:49
  Speaker 2: of the animal and God saying, hey, Sean, I need
• 2:47:52
  Speaker 2: you to put your faith in me. I've got you
• 2:47:54
  Speaker 2: for tomorrow. Give me your fat. Give it away. And
• 2:47:59
  Speaker 2: I've got you. And if you're doing the right thing,
• 2:48:00
  Speaker 2: I've always got you. And then you look at the
• 2:48:04
  Speaker 2: religious institutions and they're fat as hell. LDS is 300 billion,
• 2:48:09
  Speaker 2: going to hit a trillion. Samaritan's Purse just hit 2 billion.
• 2:48:15
  Speaker 2: Kenneth Copeland, 750 million. Daystar, 750 million cash they've made
• 2:48:21
  Speaker 2: off of buying out struggling individuals' life insurance policies. All
• 2:48:26
  Speaker 2: in the name of Jesus.
• 2:48:27
  Speaker 3: Man.
• 2:48:31
  Speaker 1: How do you think we'll get to transparency? By people
• 2:48:34
  Speaker 1: demanding or laws?
• 2:48:35
  Speaker 2: People demanding. So that's where... the show has to be seen,
• 2:48:39
  Speaker 2: because it at least educates. And our goal is to educate.
• 2:48:42
  Speaker 2: And I firmly believe Christians, once they know the problem
• 2:48:45
  Speaker 2: and they can articulate it, they will take it into
• 2:48:48
  Speaker 2: their own hands.
• 2:48:50
  Speaker 1: Do you think you'll do another docuseries once churches start
• 2:48:55
  Speaker 1: opening up their books, becoming transparent? Do you think you'll
• 2:48:58
  Speaker 1: do a series on, here's some good ones?
• 2:49:03
  Speaker 2: The show shows good ones. So that's what we show.
• 2:49:06
  Speaker 2: Episode three is called Saints and Sinners. We show the
• 2:49:09
  Speaker 2: good ones and the bad ones. Yeah. We show an
• 2:49:13
  Speaker 2: awesome homeless program in Rockford, Illinois called the Rockford Rescue Mission.
• 2:49:20
  Speaker 2: We show awesome operations overseas. Like we show the good ones.
• 2:49:23
  Speaker 2: And that was the goal. I bring no judgment.
• 2:49:26
  Speaker 1: I don't.
• 2:49:27
  Speaker 2: I do say Kenneth committed fraud because that is fraud,
• 2:49:30
  Speaker 2: but I don't say this guy did it maliciously. I say,
• 2:49:33
  Speaker 2: I give him good, like with good, he probably had
• 2:49:35
  Speaker 2: good intentions. But my goal in the show is to
• 2:49:37
  Speaker 2: put up Kenneth Copeland alongside his sister, Rosemary, who dedicated
• 2:49:41
  Speaker 2: her life to child fighters in Uganda, you know, who
• 2:49:48
  Speaker 2: were taken off the streets and from homes by Joseph Kony.
• 2:49:51
  Speaker 2: Like I got to sit with her and ironically, And
• 2:49:54
  Speaker 2: then that's the goal is just to put them side
• 2:49:56
  Speaker 2: by side and you make the decision. Who's more Christ-like?
• 2:49:59
  Speaker 2: And that's what I wanted to show. So at the
• 2:50:01
  Speaker 2: end of the show, at the end of the series,
• 2:50:04
  Speaker 2: you almost feel sick to your stomach because you're like,
• 2:50:06
  Speaker 2: I should be like Sister Rosemary and Pastor Wilfred and
• 2:50:09
  Speaker 2: all these amazing individuals that if I'm a Christ follower,
• 2:50:12
  Speaker 2: these individuals pick up their cross. And again, it's dangerous
• 2:50:16
  Speaker 2: and you risk it and you can't have fat. But
• 2:50:20
  Speaker 2: the church, the institution, those buildings are fat now. We've
• 2:50:23
  Speaker 2: become fat. And so we need to offer that fat
• 2:50:26
  Speaker 2: up and say, okay, God, you asked for faith. Let's,
• 2:50:29
  Speaker 2: and Christ asked for faith too. Just pick it up
• 2:50:31
  Speaker 2: and pick up your cross and follow me, Sean.
• 2:50:33
  Speaker 1: Get it where it needs to go. Yep. Man, what
• 2:50:39
  Speaker 1: are we missing?
• 2:50:42
  Speaker 2: Christ. The church is missing Christ as the head of
• 2:50:48
  Speaker 2: the church. There's only one, and this is a big one. Someone,
• 2:50:50
  Speaker 2: I can't believe I'd never realized this. until a call
• 2:50:54
  Speaker 2: last week, this guy named Chris. He's like, Nathan, you
• 2:50:59
  Speaker 2: know there's only one church, right? And I've been working
• 2:51:04
  Speaker 2: on this for 16 years. And I'm like, wait, what?
• 2:51:06
  Speaker 2: He's like, there's only one church, Christ Church. It's the
• 2:51:08
  Speaker 2: body of Christ, it's the people. There's no other church.
• 2:51:12
  Speaker 2: So when you say, I'm gonna go to a Ridgeline Church,
• 2:51:13
  Speaker 2: that's not a church, that's a brand. When I say, oh,
• 2:51:17
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna go to Fellowship, that's a brand, it's not
• 2:51:19
  Speaker 2: a church. There's only one church. And we've built all
• 2:51:23
  Speaker 2: these brands and businesses on top of that church. And
• 2:51:26
  Speaker 2: that's why we have 44,000 denominations today. 44,000 denominations of Christianity.
• 2:51:32
  Speaker 2: Because we all have to be different. My church has
• 2:51:35
  Speaker 2: to be different than you, Sean, because if we're the same,
• 2:51:39
  Speaker 2: what does that mean? We got nothing to argue about, bro.
• 2:51:42
  Speaker 2: We're gonna emulate our savior. So there's one church. That's
• 2:51:46
  Speaker 2: what I would encourage everybody There's one church, it's the
• 2:51:50
  Speaker 2: body of Christ. You are an active breathing part of
• 2:51:54
  Speaker 2: that organism. Read the Bible cover to cover, live in it,
• 2:51:58
  Speaker 2: breathe it, and pray, like meditate by yourself.
• 2:52:04
  Speaker 1: I think that's a great message. I mean, that is,
• 2:52:06
  Speaker 1: of all the stuff I've learned through the Bible study
• 2:52:10
  Speaker 1: at my house, that is probably the one thing that
• 2:52:12
  Speaker 1: stuck out the most was when Todd said, you know,
• 2:52:16
  Speaker 1: the church isn't a brick and mortar building. It is
• 2:52:20
  Speaker 1: the living body of believers. And that's all that matters. But.
• 2:52:25
  Speaker 2: And who is... If you can educate your children on
• 2:52:31
  Speaker 2: that and I can educate mine, in one generation, the
• 2:52:34
  Speaker 2: world will look radically different. And so my only ministry
• 2:52:39
  Speaker 2: is my child. Because if I can teach her, What
• 2:52:44
  Speaker 2: took me 41 years to learn? This place is in
• 2:52:48
  Speaker 2: good hands, man. You know?
• 2:52:52
  Speaker 1: Well, Nathan, I love what you're doing. It's dangerous.
• 2:52:56
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 2:52:56
  Speaker 1: Kicking a lot of rocks over here. But I wish
• 2:52:58
  Speaker 1: you the best of luck. I thank you for coming.
• 2:53:01
  Speaker 1: And I'd love to see what's coming next. Yeah.
• 2:53:04
  Speaker 2: Thank you, brother.
• 2:53:05
  Speaker 1: Cheers. No matter where you're watching Sean Ryan Show from,
• 2:53:22
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• 2:53:26
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• 2:53:35
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