Latest / The BlackSheep Podcast: Presented by HM Magazine / John Cooper from Skillet talks about Deconstructing Christianity and their new EP

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John Cooper from Skillet talks about Deconstructing Christianity and their new EP · The BlackSheep Podcast: Presented by HM Magazine

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I wanna scream. I wanna break something beautiful because I
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: wanna scream.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: Scream. Inside the silence.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Behind the screen.
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: Today we've got John Cooper from Skillet. Super excited to
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: chat with you again, John. A couple years ago we
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: chatted about the last album, and here you guys are
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: now with a new EP out. So obviously I want
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: to talk all things about the new EP, After the Storm.
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: But yeah, a couple years ago you were like, hey,
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: I want to come back on the pod, and here
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: you are. So you have fulfilled your promise. So just
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: excited to chat with you. So yeah, how are things going?
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: I know you mentioned just a bit ago you guys
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: are on tour, you're kind of finishing that up. So yeah,
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: how are things going on?
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Well, good to see you again, Mason. I appreciate it. Yeah,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: going really well. We've had a really busy year. Of course,
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: I say that every year, so I need to stop
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: saying it because it's like people are tired of hearing it.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: But it has been a busy year. We did overseas
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: for quite a long time this year. So everybody's having
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: a great time and loving it, but very much looking
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: forward to having some time off after this tour. But
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: it's special because at the moment we're doing a 20-year tour.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: comatose anniversary tour, which was our record that came out
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: in 06. So that's kind of special because it's very
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: nostalgic and we're playing a bunch of older songs, some
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: of which we've never performed and then others that we
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: haven't performed in a long time. And I think it's
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: nostalgic for a lot of people coming.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Totally.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: Totally.
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it's got to be crazy
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: now that you guys are at a point in your
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: career where you have albums that are 20, 25, even
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: getting close to 30 years old. That's got to be like,
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: I would imagine when you thought back, you know, when
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: you were that age in 2006 or even before then,
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: I would imagine you could have never envisioned that you
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: guys are still at it and still making music and
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: still doing the thing.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's for sure. Yeah, this is our 30th year.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Probably a good way to say it is that we
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: have records that are 30 years old, but I only
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: records that people know that are 20 years old. Nobody
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: listened to the first couple, a very small group.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: Right. How do you feel about that?
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: I would imagine a lot of those songs off of
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: those first couple albums are really meaningful. Obviously, your guys'
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: sound was totally different at that point too. How do
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: you think back to those songs? I don't know if
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: you guys ever play them live anymore or not, but
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: how do you think back to those songs?
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: How do you relate to them?
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: Because Yeah, they probably kind of maybe feel like long
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: lost children or something at this point.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Come back home. They're prodigals. Come back home.
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: No, I mean, they are special because those are the
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: first ones you wrote and you're young and you're excited
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: and zealous and all that. But we tried playing a
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: couple of songs a few years back. I remember thinking.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: It'd be really cool to play a couple songs from
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: some of those old records and just almost no one
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: knows them. They just never really got that ubiquitous exposure.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: And so I just don't play any of them. But
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: you're right. Our sound changed quite a lot. And it
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: kind of makes sense to me that we don't. But yeah,
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: 30 years in. I can't believe we're still a band.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: I think I told you that last time. Right. But
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: that's the truth. That is my honest answer. I never
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: thought we were that good of a band. I thought
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: we were good. I didn't think we were great. We
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: were just being real and trying to be as authentic
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: as we could. And I'm just thrilled we're still a band.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: I'm thrilled that anybody is listening. I can't believe I
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: get to play music still. Yeah.
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: And here you are making new music. Let's, yeah, let's,
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: talk about the new album. And one of the things
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: about this new album that I definitely want to talk
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: more in depth about is just the sound of it.
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: It definitely kind of goes back to maybe some of
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: those heavier roots. I don't know if it's because you
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: guys are playing Comatose and some of those older songs
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: again or not. But before we dive into kind of
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: the sound of it, what would you say is like
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: maybe your elevator pitch for why fans should listen to
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: this album? Like what would you say is kind of
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: maybe the reason why somebody would want to give this,
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: I think it's six songs, right? Why would they give
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: this set of six songs a chance in comparison to
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: maybe the rest of your discography?
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, good question. Okay, Elevator Pitch. I would say.
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: We can go all the way up to the 20th
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: floor too, so it might be a long elevator ride.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: The longest elevator ever. Loving an elevator. Oh man, I
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: love that song. Okay. Yeah, I think that this is
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: a very gritty album. It's heavier, as you mentioned, than
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: some of the previous records. Going back to some of
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: our roots, I would say it's a modernized version of
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: some of our older sounds and some of our older
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: thematic material. It's very raw. It's authentic. I think that
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: the lyrics, I think, are very relatable to probably anybody.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: I don't think you have to be religious or a
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: Christian or or a particular kind of person. I think
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: most people just relate to struggle, grief, things like that.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: And it's a very authentic record. We wrote it from
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: a very authentic place, which we always try to do.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: And I still think the songs are catchy, but they're catchy,
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: and there's pop elements, but it also has more of the,
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: some of the, I don't know what you want to
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: call it, some screaming and a little, a little bit
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: of growling and maybe some of that deeper metal stuff,
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: you know, we're not, we're not hardcore or anything like that,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: but it's still, it's a heavy album.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's literally a couple of songs on there
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: that I was like, I mean, this is not that
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: far away from being like an August Burns Red album
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: or something like it's, it's, it can be heavy at times.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: Like, I mean, even like, again, at times almost sounds
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: like metalcore, which I thought was really cool.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, again, like we haven't really heard something like
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: that from Skillet for quite a while. I mean, I
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: remember really loving a lot of the Clyde stuff over
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: 20 years ago now. I think it was.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: Clyde in 2004? Yeah, 2003.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: 2003 even.
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: I remember those days. To me, that was heavy skillet.
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: There are moments where it feels like that with this
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: new EP.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: Oh, well, good ears. I agree with that, actually. It's
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: not like the whole thing is as heavy as August
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: Burns Reds, but August Burns Reds. But there are elements
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: like those breakdowns that you haven't heard from us in
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: a minute. And I think we might have gone a
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: little even further than we did on Collide, maybe. But
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: that's up to the listener.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: Do you feel excited for fans, maybe even newer fans,
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: that maybe haven't heard this kind of heavy version of
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: Skillet before? I would imagine there's a lot of fans
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: that maybe came along probably around Comatose or maybe even
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: later than that. that are probably maybe even the majority
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: of your crowd now at your shows that maybe haven't
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: heard some of those like early Clyde kind of moments.
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: Are you excited for, uh, for, uh, fans to hear
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: you scream? Like, I mean, there, there's some moments where
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: you scream and it's like, Whoa, when's the last time
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: I've heard John scream like this before?
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: It's been a while. Uh, I would imagine that that's.
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: Gotta be something, uh, that's gotta be exciting for, for
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: you to like give to your fans of like, Hey,
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: like this is a version of us that has existed,
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: but maybe you haven't heard in a while.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that that's fair. And, um, I probably
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: would say I hear quite a lot from people and
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: even other bands that we tour with. Like right now
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: we're touring with Escape the Fate. And one of the
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: guys in Escape the Fate was saying like, you guys
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: live are much heavier than your recorded material. But we've
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: always been told that even when Clyde was out, people
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: would come see us and like, why are you so
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: much heavier live? And I would always be like, I
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: don't know. I'm trying to capture that in the studio
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: and I'm not sure why it's not. I don't know
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: if it might be somewhat psychological because one of my
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: former producers, a guy called Kevin Churko, he did all
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: the Five Finger Death Punch records. He came to see
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: us years ago and he said, he's like, you know
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: what it is? You guys perform like a hardcore band.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: Your music isn't hardcore, but you perform that way. And
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: maybe it makes people think it's, maybe it's psychological or
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: we're brainwashing everybody. But I do think that some people
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: that have seen us live might be a little bit
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: more used to me screaming and things because we do
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: some of those elements live. And then we finally put
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: it together. You know, I think I did an interview
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: on this podcast, but not with you back in like 2018, maybe.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: And when I was releasing my side project called Fight
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: the Fury. which a lot of people don't know that
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: side project, but that, that side project was very heavy for,
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: it was much heavier than the skillet. And that was
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: sort of scratching the itch of some of the songs
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: I was writing that my label felt was too heavy
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: for skillet. And I think what we've done on this
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: project was kind of combine those sounds. So that might
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: be for you being a music connoisseur, that might make
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: some sense.
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Like, yeah, I was, I was, I'm curious, like around,
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: cause you said like, you know, you guys probably sound
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: heavier live. But it doesn't maybe get captured in the recording.
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: And yeah, I was curious, like, does some of that
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: have to just do with like the decisions that like
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: a record label may make about like, you know, whoever
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: they think that they're going to try to market your
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: your music to? Like, you know, obviously with Skillet, there
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: are a lot of fans and you guys are, you know,
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: oftentimes on the radio. And not everybody that's listening to
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: the radio is going to want to listen to you
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: scream throughout a minute-long breakdown or whatever. That's a totally
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: different kind of market that would appeal to that. So
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: if you guys are going to be appealing to a
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: different type of market, they might want to like a quieter,
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: or maybe not quieter, but just like a a softer
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: sound a little bit more of an accessible sound but
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: but then obviously you guys you you play it up
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: uh in live shows but yeah i'm curious like do
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: you feel like some of that has to do with
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: just like decision making around like who the music's marketed to.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: You know, it probably is definitely in the pot. It's
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: probably a pretty big pot of things that are all
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: going into it. And one of those things is definitely like,
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: how are we going to get this music out? And
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: that was always very difficult for Skillet because the Christian
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: market was just so boxed in. There was just no,
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: there was hardly any outlets available. to promote material. And
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: so you had to find ways to get outside of
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: that box. And even if you were signed to a
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: mainstream label, so like Skillet was, we were signed to
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: Atlantic Records, but we were considered a crossover band. So
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: there was still a stigma attached to us that not
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: everybody wanted to play the music because they're like, well, yeah,
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: but they're a Christian band. I don't really know if
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: we want to play that. And so, yeah, I just
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: think that a lot of the times we were trying,
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: how are we going to market this? How do we
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: get this out to a bigger group of people. And
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: so I don't really know, but I'm sure that, that,
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: that plays into it for sure. And then the kinds
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: of songs that you're writing. And, uh, I, I, so
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: I probably would not be smart enough to say what
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: led it to ABC or D, but I think one
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: of the exciting things happening in a larger picker picture
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: is that rock music is coming back in style.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: Totally.
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: Right. So heavy music is coming back in style. And
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: there was about a decade in there that I think
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: a lot of people were trying to rebrand, reform just
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: a little bit, keep what was authentic about you, but
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: do it maybe with a new kind of a sound.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: And I would actually say, and you'd be an interesting
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: person to ask about this if you agree with me
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: on this or not. But I actually think that some
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: of the newer metal and rock that's very popular, be
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: it like falling in reverse, and let's just use them
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: as an example, and a great many other bands, but
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: let's just use them as an example. Actually, I guess
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say is it's hard to imagine
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: some of these bands had it not been for early
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: Christian metal in the early 2000s. Totally. Right? Norma Jean
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: and Under Oath, and you can go down a long
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: list of those bands.
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we already mentioned August Burns Red, Devil Who's Prada. Yeah,
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: all those bands.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's kind of a funny twist on this
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: is that the younger metal fans love that era of music,
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: and there are new bands that definitely seem like they
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: were influenced in some way from that music. That seems
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: undeniable to me. And now what I think you have
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: are heavy music listeners who truly don't care if the
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: band is singing about God or Jesus or Jesus whatever.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: They don't really care. They don't have those like things
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: in your mind, like you can't sing about God because
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: they grew up listening to either bands who had a
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: Christian in the band or were Christian adjacent or something
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: of that nature. I don't know if I'm saying it right,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: but I think you, hopefully you get what I mean. Yeah.
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, something that Cullen and I have definitely
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: talked a lot about on this podcast, even with other
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: bands that are in that vein is the like solid
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: state sort of Christian market had a disproportionate number of bands,
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: especially really specifically metalcore. Like there was just a really
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: disproportionate number of Christian metalcore bands in comparison to the
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: general market at that time, where because of that and
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: the influence a lot of those bands had, it's really
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: interesting to think just like when you think about like
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: music generally, usually Christians aren't the ones that are influencing
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: like entire scenes of music, but it just so happened
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: in the 2000s, that a lot of Christian metalcore bands
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: were extremely influenced on just the general metalcore scene at
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: that time.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. I think that that's pretty cool because we're always
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: accused in Christian music of just copying whatever the secular
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: world is doing. And I'm not saying there's no truth
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: to that, but it's actually, you know, everybody copies everybody.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: And we also have to give props to Tooth & Nail,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: who kind of led... into that era because in the
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: nineties there, I mean, whether there's MXPX and a whole
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: living sacrifice, well, they, they actually, they weren't tooth and nail,
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: but the point is, is there was a lot of precursors.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: And so I don't think it's fair to say anymore
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: that Christian music just follows whatever the world is doing.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: I think it's much more complex than that. Right.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: Right. I mean, even, I know we briefly touched on
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: the fact that you guys changed your sound from those
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: first couple albums. but like there weren't a lot of
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: industrial rock bands at that time too. And you guys
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: were really doing an industrial sound and whether they were like,
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: whether they were in other industrial Christian rock bands or not,
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: like just generally speaking, when it came to the industrial music,
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: you guys were one of the first, you guys are
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: up there.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't say you were the first, but like you're
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: up there.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. Nobody, hardly any, I
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: don't think anybody's ever recognized that before. You might be
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: the very first. And I don't mean that because I'm, I'm,
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: I'm prideful about it. I'm not, we certainly were not
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: the first. You can't discount the mighty mortal. Mortal is
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: one of my favorites. And there were other things. There
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: were lots of other groups, Echoing Green. And then Echoing
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: Green was more electronica, but still there was a lot
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: of great stuff. But so sometimes you look back on
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: Skillet's career, what people don't, if they like, wow, those
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: music changes were so strange. But what they don't understand
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: was that the 90s was very in flux and very eclectic.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: And it wasn't weird to have industrial music and electronica ska, uh, and, and,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: and go through the whole list, you know, all under
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: an alternative rock banner and people were trying things. And it,
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: in my opinion, it was a great time for music
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: and an incredible time for Christian music. Cause we started
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: leading into like the Benjamin gate and earth suit and
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: really fun, interesting switch foot, of course. more of mainstream. Anyway,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm going down nostalgia lane with you. Sorry.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm always down to go down nostalgia lane. It
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: always brings me back to some of those good old days. Yeah,
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: so one thing that I'd love to hear more about
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: this EP, and you briefly mentioned just some of the
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: lyrics really touching on grief and suffering and loss and hurt.
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: I think I read an interview that a lot of
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: this EP was really directly inspired influenced by some of
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: your experiences at the church that I think you helped
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: even found, but were a part of for many years.
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: Obviously share whatever you want to share, but I'm just more,
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: I'm curious about if you can touch on more of that,
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: of just, you know, some of the hurt that you
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: experienced in that time and the way that then influenced
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: the lyrics of this album.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. I'll give a very short version, not an
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: elevator pitch, but an elevator to the 20th for a
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: just so I don't waste your whole time and all
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: the audience time. But basically, yes, definitely went through a very,
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: I would call it spiritually abusive situation of a church
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: that we were at for 30 years. I did not
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: help found my wife, Corey, who plays in Skillet, of course.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Corey's dad founded and is still an elder at the church.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: It just became a very horrible thing that I never
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: saw coming because we loved our church. Been there for
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: 30 years, best friends. family, literal family, and very much
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: lived as a community, like a very, a very community-based church.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: The mentality of the whole church was like, you know,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: the book of Acts, you know, people share things, you know,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: and we're, it was a really beautiful, uh, I would
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: say that the Protestant church in America has, uh, Not
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: done a great job, in my opinion, of that community aspect,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: looking out for one another. And this church did. And
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: it was the most, I just thought it was wonderful.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: But it just ended up becoming very authoritarian. If you
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: disagree with things, if you ask questions, you just get
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: pushed out of the church. So we ended up getting
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: pushed out of our church and our actual family, our
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: best friends. And it was disorienting in a way that
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: I can't describe it. And I've spoken to a lot
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: of people over the last six years who have had
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: similar stories, uh, people that some of, of, you know,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: whether I know when you use words like deconstruction, they're
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: loaded because everybody means different things, but their words would be,
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: had they deconstructed some left the faith, some deconstructed and
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: then reconstructed and stayed in the faith or had a
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: faith that looked very different or Or like, hey, I'm
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: into Jesus, but I'm never going to church again.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Right, totally.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: Everybody's got their story. And I've spent a lot of
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: time talking to a lot of people like that. And
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: so I'm familiar with the stories and I know they're
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: real and they need to be heard. And I have
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: tried to be there for friends of mine and or fans.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: but you can't really explain it till you experience it.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: And then when you experience it, you're like, Oh my gosh,
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: this is like, this is the most devastating thing that
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: I've ever gone through in my life. And so very disorienting.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: It's putting me down a path of, of just being
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: like totally raw, like depression, uh, anger. Um, and when
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: I say anger, um, The demon that I wrestle with,
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: if people want to know my deep, dark secrets, is
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: not some of the things that other people do with,
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: but mine has always been just wrath, anger. and wrath.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: And that's something that God has changed in me very
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: early on. But when I was in high school, my
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: mom died and me and my dad started fighting. And
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: so for several years, I would try to go to
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: bed at night and I would just stare at a
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: black ceiling and I would just, I couldn't go to sleep.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: My mind would just race and race and race about
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: all of the people that I wanted to sometimes physically hurt,
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: which I know is a really dark thing to admit,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: but I would think of scenarios in which they may
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: do something to me that made me feel justified in
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: taking them out and hurting people. And I would, every
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: single night I would do this and I would pray, God,
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be like this anymore, but it
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: lasted for a very long time. And I thought I
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: would always be that way. And it was my relationship
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: with Jesus that healed that and changed me so drastically
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: and so radically that I went for decades and decades
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: without seeing that kind of anger again. But it would
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: pop up every now and just every now and again, briefly.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: That's what I wrote the song Monster about. I had
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: little kids and I was exhausted and not sleeping. And
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: you get really stressed out and your kid does something
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: that's not even that big of a deal. And you
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: just lash out on your child, you know. And that's
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: what Monster is about. I'm like, oh, God, help me.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be this person. So that wrath
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: came back again. And I thought that was dead forever.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: And I was wrong, Mason. That thing came back and
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: it put me into a state for over a year. And,
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: and I kept trying to fight it, but I was mad. And,
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: and then it even just to make my story longer,
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: it even manifested in physical pain. I started having a
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: lot of physical pain in my body because I just couldn't,
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: I couldn't figure out reality with this group of people
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: that I love so much that I know love God
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: and would never want anything bad to happen to me
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: are the same people that are really treating me in
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: a very abusive way. I would never treat an enemy
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: like they're treating me. I would never do that to somebody.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: And you can't make sense of reality. So I'll stop
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: my story. But all that to say, I really struggled
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: a lot. And I've come through that now. And I'm
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: doing well. God has healed me. But I think it's
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: changed me in really incredible ways. And that's what, It
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: wasn't just me. It was my wife. I mean, it's
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: my wife's own dad. It's absolutely brutal. So that's what
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: we wrote the EP about. And it has changed me
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: in really profound and positive ways. I can be a
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: much more merciful person towards others. I can be much
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: more empathetic towards others. I can be less self-righteous and
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: less judgmental, quick to listen to someone else's story, not
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: try to provide all the answers, just hear their story. and, and,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: and pray for them and be there. And I think
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: that's a, that's a good thing in my life. Yeah.
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: I appreciate like just the raw honesty of all of that.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: You know, I know it, you know, we don't really
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: know each other well, but you're like just kind of
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: pouring your heart out of your story.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: And I appreciate that.
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: You know, along those lines, like, you know, I, you know,
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: I think we had talked previously, like I'm pretty involved
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: in that, like kind of deconstruction world for lack of
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: a better term. And I know that like you had
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: previously a number of years ago, sort of been a
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: little critical, uh, or I should maybe even maybe literal
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: is like not even the correct word. Maybe, maybe you,
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: maybe you even would describe it as like, you were
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: pretty critical of a lot of like the deconstruction world.
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: And maybe it was like a specific kind of person
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: that you're thinking in that deconstruction world that you were
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: pretty critical of. But like, do you think this experience, like,
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: cause you mentioned like, you know, you, you experienced this
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: like authoritarianism in this church and you experienced like Christians
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: hurting other Christians and, as you probably know, like that's
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: where a lot of deconstruction stories start is like people
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: starting to question some beliefs or whatever. And then there's
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: like authoritarian figure starts to, you know, you know, impose their,
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: their power on them. Or, you know, they start to
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: experience a lot of hurt from other Christians in their church.
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: And that's where a lot of deconstruction stories start. So
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: do you feel like maybe, you know, despite some of
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: the criticisms you've had in the past of deconstruction, do
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: you feel like maybe more of like a sense of
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: empathy of like, oh, I kind of understand where people
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: are coming from now, you know, if they do deconstruct
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: their faith, whether they stay Christian or not. But do
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: you feel like you have more empathy for, for people
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: that like would even identify as like, I'm deconstructing or whatever?
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah. I would say the
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: quick answer is yes. And my super longer answer would be,
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to say it. I remember
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: a few years ago, uh, I don't know if this
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: is 2020, maybe. Okay. Actually, you might know. Do you
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: remember when Jonathan Steingard of Hawk Nelson kind of came out?
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: Maybe that was 2020 or 2021.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was right around that kind of beginning of COVID.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, good. That was before I had
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: ever said anything about the deconstruction stuff. Well, it depends on... Sorry.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: It was in 2019, I think, is when I had
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: written something after like Joshua Harris and Marty Sampson. And
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: that made, certainly that made some people upset. But when
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: Jonathan Steingard, who was a friend, I like Jonathan a lot,
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: when he kind of said, you know, whatever he said
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: on his post, like I'm questioning and I've kind of not,
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: you know, not as in as I was. I don't
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: remember his language. I don't want to put words in
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: his mouth. But I remember commenting on his social media.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: I don't remember exactly what I said. It'd be interesting
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: to go back and see. But I think I said
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: something to the effect of, I'm really sad to hear this.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: I still love you. Me and you are still friends.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Doesn't change anything. But I am sad, you know, and
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: I wish this wasn't the case, you know, or something
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: to that effect. I made it clear. Me and you
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: are going to be friends no matter what. And that
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: has always been my heart with all of this. So
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: if I could change some things, I think what I
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: would do is I would go back and say things cleaner.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: When I came out about deconstruction, deconstruction, And I said, look,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: we're going to war with this, whatever. I do think
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: if I was to go back and listen to the
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: clip I did a few years ago, when I hear it,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: I go, yeah, but I think it's kind of clear
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: who I'm talking about. But I do know that a
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: lot of people, it was not clear. And I actually
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: tried to fix it right away, even on the tour,
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: as I began having people say, I'm doubting my faith.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: Are you at war with me? And I'm like, no,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: what do you mean? I would never be at war.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, how could you think that? And so
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: right away, I started changing my words on stage to say, listen,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: if you're doubting your faith, God is not mad at you.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: I am not mad at you. That's real. That's something
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: that God cares about. But at that point, it was
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: already too late because I'd already said what I said.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: But I think that you nailed it a second ago, Mason,
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: when you said, I was talking about something specific. I
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: didn't even know at that time that there was a
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: group of people who say, I have been abused at
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: church in one way or the other. And that took
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: me down a path of needing to deconstruct harmful things
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: out of the faith. Things like, you can't ask a
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: question at church. and remove that from the faith, I
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: didn't even know there was a section of people that
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: that included to until somebody on that very tour said, hey,
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: can we talk? And I said, yeah, of course. I
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: started talking to her and she's telling me her story.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: She had been essayed by her pastor. And I, you know,
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: I wept with her. I was like, of course I'm
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: not talking to you. Like, absolutely not. This is an
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: evil thing. And yes, you should definitely remove that from
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: anything to do with Jesus because Jesus is the good shepherd.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: And so I said, okay, how can I talk about
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: this better? So that is the honest answer to that,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: which is to say, yeah, I would go back and
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: say things differently. I would make it very clear who
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about, but in the spirit of honesty, because
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: I always try to be honest about things so that
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: people don't feel like I'm gaslighting them or trying to
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: act like we have more agreement than we do. I
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: don't really like that. I don't think it's fair. For sure.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Who I was talking about were people who, and I
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: did say this even in the clip, but maybe I didn't,
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: I must not have said it well, obviously, because a
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: lot of people didn't hear it. But is a group
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: of people who had Christian platforms. They are pastors or
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: Christian musicians or people that use their platforms to promote Jesus.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: who then left the faith and then use those same
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: platforms and the same audience following them to try to
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: get people to leave the faith. That's who I'm saying
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: I take issue with. And I do not back down
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: to that. I still stand to that. I am at
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: war against what they're doing. If I saw Derek Webb,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: if I saw Derek Webb, I'd be fine to have
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: a conversation with Derek. I don't view him as my enemy.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: I just don't like the things that he's doing. And
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: we could have a conversation about that. I'm sure he's
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: not eager. I'm not really either. I'm not really petty.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: I just like, yeah, I just think that that's a
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: really bad thing. And I remember hearing one of his interviews,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: you know, before I went on that tour when I
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: said those things and, you know, where he was calling, uh,
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, he called my Lord and savior. Uh, he,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: I can't remember if he called him an a-hole or
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: a hateful a-hole or a hateful bastard, one of the others.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: And I can't really remember which. And and he was saying,
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: once you come back into reconstruction, you know, you're starting reconstruction.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Once you know, I don't need a savior to sit
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: on the throne of my life. I don't need to
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: be saved. I don't need to be justified. I don't
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: need to be redeemed. I already am it. And he
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: talks about how, you know, hateful of a B word
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: or an a-hole. I can't remember which word Jesus is.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, yeah, the only reason he has an
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: audience is because he used to have a Christian audience.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: And What he's doing, I think it's really ruining a
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: lot of people's lives. And he's obviously at war against
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: us or he wouldn't be on all these podcasts doing that.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: And so I don't think there's anything wrong with me
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: being like, yeah, I think that's really hurting a lot
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: of people. And I think it's not good. On the
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: other hand, somebody like Jonathan Steingard that says, hey, guys,
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: I just want to be honest. I no longer believe. Well,
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: that's just where Jonathan is at. Right. You know what
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: I mean? He's just being honest about where he's at.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: And I don't have any harsh words for him. I
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: just say, man, me and you are still going to
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: be friends. You know, I love you, but I wish
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: this wasn't the case. And I hope you, I hope
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: you do come back because, uh, cause I love you,
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: but we can still be friends. So I know that's
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: a really long answer, Mason. I'm just trying to be
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: as honest as I can.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: I will say like maybe to defend Derek, uh, some,
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: because I know Derek well, and and I don't know
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: exactly the comments that you're talking about with like how
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: he was talking about Jesus there, but I will say like,
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: you know, obviously I think Derek would recognize that, you know,
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: obviously a lot of his audience came about because of
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: Cademan's obviously. I think for Derek, he's somebody, and I
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: would imagine like you would, you would testify to this
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: as like an artist as well as like, you want
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: to be honest with where you're at as an artist.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: And I think where Derek, you know, Derek, especially as
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: he went through his deconstruction, whatever, he couldn't help but
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: write music in that way. And that kind of like
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: creates a certain kind of dynamic of, you know, where
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: maybe those who are not deconstructing that, you know, maybe
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: knew him from Cademan's are probably not going to be
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: super on board with him, but maybe those that were,
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: you know, maybe who grew up with, in fact, I
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: know a lot of people who like grew up loving
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: Cademan's call that maybe also started to experience a lot
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: of the kind of doubts or questions about their faith
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: in the way that Derek did. A lot of them
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: were like, oh, I like see that in his music too.
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: And they can relate to that. And I think maybe that's,
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: I don't know if he was intentionally trying to kind
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: of create like a whole new market or anything. I
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: think my understanding from Derek as I've talked to him
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: about these sort of things is he just wanted to
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: be honest with where he was at in his music.
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: And it just so happened that a lot of people
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: that were, you know, knew him from Cademan's also were
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: experiencing those same sort of questions and doubts and journeying
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: in life in the way that he was as well.
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: That would be my impression of Derek. but maybe you
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: know more or not, but that's my, at least in
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: the conversations I've had with him, that's kind of where
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: he's at. And I think like, I think you would,
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: I would imagine like you as an artist would like
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: attest to the fact that it's like, obviously you want
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: to write an album with like where you're at, right?
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: You wrote an entire EP about like some of the
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: hurt that you've experienced, right, in church. And I would
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: imagine like a lot of people who have experienced that
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: same sort of thing can, you know, listen to these lyrics,
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: listen to these songs and be like, oh, I'm like
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: in that same journey of life right now as John is.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, I do know what you're saying. And that's
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: definitely worth me considering and thinking on. The things that
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: just come to my mind probably early on would just
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: be things like, let me say it like this. So
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: I don't think I'm a petty person. And I don't,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: if somebody says like, for instance, right now we're getting,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: I don't really know why, but a ton of Christian, uh,
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: discernment ministries who are very upset with Skillet. So there's
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: always YouTube podcasts about me, about why I'm not really
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: a Christian and things like that. But they're all over
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: the place.
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: This is not, I can assure you, this is not
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: one of those podcasts that's questioning whether you're a Christian
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: or not.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm sure. But you know, I've never, I get
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: asked about it, but I've never gone after them or
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: said anything. I'm like, yeah, that's just their opinion. And
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: I don't, it just doesn't really matter to me, you know?
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: And so some of that I think can be that way.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: I think the one thing that I would say is,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: for instance, I think what I'm not really comfortable with
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: would just be the idea that somebody, I'm not trying
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: to pick on Derek, it's just the first thing that
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: comes to my mind, that they are not acting in
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: hateful ways towards us. And I think that's the kind
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: of thing, like when him and Flamie Grant and they
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: showed up to the Dove Awards making a really big
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: deal about how people that don't accept them are really hateful. Well,
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: I think that that's a very strong statement. I don't
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: think that's any more, you know, Mr. Nice Guy or anything.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: In other words, I don't think that they're always being
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: the nice ones, that they act like they are. And
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: so if I went on a podcast right now and
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: I said, I hate Islam. I think that Allah is
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: a tyrannical son of a bee. Somebody might be like, gosh,
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: that kind of sounds a little hateful. Well, that's what
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: Derek Webb did about Christ. So I actually don't think
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: that he's the nice guy. And I think that that's
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: what really frustrates me is that a lot of people
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: said some very harsh things against our faith, me, or
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: people that think like me. And as soon as we
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: say something back to them, we're looked at as being
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: pharisaical legalists. For instance, and I don't mean this rude
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: to you at all, because I think you're a very
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: nice person and I really like you, but when you
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: tweeted that Skillet's music is for people that show up
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: at January 6th. And I met you. I didn't bring
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: it up. I'm not petty. I don't care. It's a
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: pretty good burn. And I'm not insecure. And it doesn't
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: make me think you hate me. I'm just like, it's
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: just the internet. People have opinions. I've said plenty of
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: harsh things. But me saying I'm going to war against
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Derek Webb is not any different than the things that
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: Derek Webb have said about us and our faith and
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: that all the hateful people that don't agree with him
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: on whatever progressive view that he has. So that's my
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: only thing. He can say what he wants. Anybody can
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: say what they want. You know, Kevin Max is another example.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: Kevin Max will always say very, very derogatory things about
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: everybody that disagrees with him. And the minute you push
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: back on him, he blocks you. And he says that
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: you're being a Pharisee and a mean person. And I'm
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: just like, dude, gross, get some balls. If you're going
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: to go after people, be ready for somebody to say
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: something back. Don't be so petty. And so that's why
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: I say, if I saw Derek, I would have no
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: problem having a conversation with Derek because I don't get
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: my feelings hurt that easily. And he probably would be
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: more than happy to have a conversation with me too,
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: I would assume. But anyway, that's who I was talking
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: about and knowing that I made people who have been
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: treated poorly or who are just doubting, having normal doubts
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: or that went, hey, I don't know if the Bible
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: could be real because where did the dinosaurs go? And
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: I asked my pastor and I got kicked out of
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: the church. None of that should ever happen. And it
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: broke my heart to know that some people felt that
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: I was talking to them. And I did try to adjust,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: but I think it was a little too late. So
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: I'd go back and I'd do that differently. And I'd
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: be a much softer person and don't want to be
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: a judgmental person. And I want people to know that
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: I love them no matter where they're at. And yeah,
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: I think those are good changes. Yeah, yeah.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: I appreciate that.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: I mean, like I said, like I think whether whether
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: it's someone like Derek Webb or another Christian leader that
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: maybe is starting to have those doubts or deconstruct or
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: whether it's that normal person that just like, you know,
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: has been going to church for years and now it's
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: like starting to have some of those doubts. Yeah, I
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: think like for us to have like empathy around like,
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: you know, especially knowing your experience now with this, the
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: church that you've been a part of for so long.
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: you know, knowing that experience. I think, yeah, to be
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: able to have, like, that kind of empathy, I think
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: it's important for us to kind of, you know, be
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: able to hear each other's stories and know where each
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: other's coming from. And so, yeah, I just think it's important.
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: And it's, like, definitely... Definitely sounding like that's kind of
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: where you're coming from. And that might even mean that
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: even in the time that we start deconstructing, maybe we
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: said some things that we regret. Or maybe even when
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: we aren't deconstructing, we say some things that we regret.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: I've said a lot of things I regret.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: So we're like, we're all humans.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: I think we all would maybe probably change some things
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: that we've said or done in the past, regardless of
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: where we're at, whether we're more progressive, more conservative, or
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: anything in between. I think, I think we all can
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: like say that, you know, that's kind of where we're
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: at is that, yeah, we've all said some things that
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: we probably would want to take back or at least
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: say maybe differently.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: I totally agree with that. I can amen that wholeheartedly.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: This is why I like you, Mason. I like talking
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: to people that are real.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I appreciate it. I appreciate it, man.
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: Well, let's talk just briefly kind of, you know, last
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: things about the album. I know you got to get
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: going here soon, but yeah. So obviously you guys are
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: on tour. You're going to be finishing that up soon.
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: The album is, or the EP is already out. Yeah,
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: where should people buy it? Where can people get it?
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: I know you guys are finishing up a tour, but
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: I would imagine 2027 is going to bring more shows. Yeah,
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: just would love to hear, what do you want to
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: plug about the band right now?
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, thank you. So After the Storm, you can
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: stream it wherever you stream stuff. Please go check it
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: out and do me a favor and tell your friends.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: If you like it, let somebody know. We would appreciate
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: that greatly.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: Are you guys ever like vinyl people? Have any of
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: your stuff been on vinyl?
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's on vinyl as well. I wish
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: I could tell you where to get that. I mean, I,
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: it is available in some stores, but you know, sometimes
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: it's hard to find. I'm not sure. I wish I
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: could give somebody a place to go, but I'm not
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: sure where it is and where it isn't, but yes,
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: it is available. Uh, at the very least you can
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: go to our website, skillet.com and get the, the physical
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: CD or the physical vinyl. If you, if you dig that,
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: And I particularly like vinyl. I think vinyl sounds amazing.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: So good. It's so good.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's so nostalgic, too. I like the sound.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: I like the way... I don't know. I just like
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: everything about vinyl.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: Like holding it, you know, and yeah.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the taste of it, the smell of it. Yeah,
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: the artwork.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: That was a gold member reference for anybody too young
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: to remember that. Anyway. But yes, we're on tour. We're
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: going to be touring a lot next year.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: Follow us on.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: on socials Skillet Music and we're always releasing tons of
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: backstage footage which is usually always dumb and like today
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: I just Seth Silver I just scared the ever living
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: crap out of Seth today it'll be online today it
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: was the best scare ever so everybody go check it
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: out and follow Skillet and thanks for your support we
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: appreciate it and stay strong we love you Love it.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: Love it. Well, thanks so much, John.
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: You know, I will say, you know, I thought it
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: was fun joke to say that Skillet's for, you know,
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: people that storm the Capitol, but also Skillet's also for
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: Mason Menega. So, you know, who am I to judge?
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: I'm no different from one of the people that stormed
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: the Capitol, I guess.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: We all love Skillet.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: No, that's nice. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it. Great chat.
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: Thanks, man.