Latest / Mini Scroll / The Impact of The Manosphere: Swiping Through The Rise of Alpha Male Culture with Tarang Chawla

Transcript

The Impact of The Manosphere: Swiping Through The Rise of Alpha Male Culture with Tarang Chawla · Mini Scroll

0:00
This episode of Infinite Scroll is brought to you by Bumble.
0:03
As part of Bumble's ongoing mission to create a dating space
0:06
where everyone feels safe, they've teamed up with safety
0:09
advocate Tarong Challa to launch a new suite of safety features
0:13
and a social content series aimed at improving dating
0:16
culture here in Australia. Bumble's latest updates are
0:19
designed to empower its community and foster safer, more
0:22
respectful connections. Like the feature Share Date,
0:26
which allows you to share your date details with a trusted
0:28
contact, and ID Verification, which adds an extra layer of
0:32
trust by letting members confirm their identity.
0:35
Plus, Bumbles review before you Send feature now extends to chat
0:39
conversations, allowing its community to reflect on their
0:42
messages and make sure they're being respectful before sending
0:45
them. Thank you to Bumble for making
0:47
this episode possible. Hi everyone, welcome back to
0:51
Infinite Scroll. I haven't recorded an Infinite
0:54
Scroll episode in a couple of weeks.
0:55
It feels good to be back. So as you guys can probably tell
1:00
from the title of this episode, I am so excited because this
1:03
episode is going to be a deep dive into the manosphere and I'm
1:07
doing it alongside Tarong Chala. This is less of an interview and
1:11
more of a collaborative episode, so I hope you guys like it.
1:15
As always, we poured a lot of time and energy into putting
1:19
this episode together for you guys, and I'm really excited for
1:22
you guys to hear it. This is a very heavy but a very
1:24
important topic. As always, Please remember to
1:28
rate, review and subscribe. Please sign up to our
1:30
newsletter, also called Infinite Scroll.
1:33
We're on Fridays. We round up the five biggest
1:35
thing pieces from that week and we are trying to get to 10,000
1:38
YouTube subscribers. We are so close.
1:40
We are like just a few subscribers off.
1:43
So please subscribe to our YouTube channel if you guys
1:45
haven't already. All right, I hope you guys like
1:48
this episode. From shows like Adolescence to
1:55
various alpha male podcasters, what once was a fringe online
1:59
space is becoming increasingly mainstream.
2:03
Enter the manosphere. The manosphere is a term people
2:06
use to describe a specific side of the Internet, a collection of
2:09
websites, forums, blogs, and other types of content that
2:13
completely oppose feminism. As you can probably imagine,
2:17
this side of the Internet is vast, and much of it can be
2:20
quite triggering, upsetting, and disturbing.
2:23
With that in mind, please be aware that we'll be discussing
2:25
topics around violence, toxic masculinity, and misogyny.
2:29
Listener discretion is advised. That being said, I actually have
2:33
a guest here today to help me break down the rise of the
2:36
manosphere, its niches, and how it's impacting Gen.
2:39
Z with a specific focus on dating culture.
2:42
Welcome to wrong Chala. Thank you so much, Lauren.
2:45
It's great, great to be here. I'm so excited to chat with you.
2:48
I've been following your work for years.
2:50
For anyone who is not familiar with Tarong, he is an
2:53
award-winning speaker, writer and advocate.
2:55
He is the Co founder of Not One More Nikki, a grassroots
2:58
nonprofit working to end men's violence.
3:01
Adding to his already impressive resume is a sessional academic
3:05
at Monash University and he is a former Young Australian of the
3:08
Year finalist. Tarong has also recently been
3:11
announced as Bumble Australia's safety advocate and will be
3:14
offering support on policies and features to make online dating
3:18
safer. So before we get into the
3:21
episode, could you tell our listeners a little bit more
3:23
about Not One More Nikki and your work in this space?
3:26
Of course, firstly, thanks for having me on.
3:29
It's such a like a treat to be here and to be able to have this
3:32
conversation, you know, for your listeners about a pretty full on
3:36
topic, one that a lot of your listeners, I suppose, live with
3:40
the consequences of. And then hopefully talk a little
3:42
bit about not only the work that Bumble's doing, but I guess the
3:45
responsibility that all men play when it comes to challenging the
3:48
manosphere. And this idea that just because
3:51
of the way things are changing, it doesn't mean that men are
3:53
under attack as a whole. But really it's an opportunity
3:56
for growth and reflection and a little bit of positive self
4:00
development for men as well, I think.
4:02
So I started Not one more Nikki following the murder of my
4:05
younger sister, Nikki. My sister was 23 when she was
4:09
killed after she rejected a man. And he couldn't take no.
4:13
And his attitude was that if she's not going to be with me,
4:17
if I can't be with her, then no one else can.
4:20
And, you know, we've seen sort of this devastating rise of this
4:24
type of men's violence, particularly around dating and
4:27
safety for women in Australia. And it's sort of it's really
4:31
challenging as a man who wants all women to be able to be free
4:35
and safe and equal in all relationships, you know,
4:38
professional ones, romantic ones, especially to see this
4:41
kind of thing going on. And so the work that we do at
4:44
Not One Monique pushes for kind of what you might call systemic
4:47
reform at a structural level. So working across policy,
4:50
advocacy and education with a big focus on primary prevention.
4:54
So how do we change the sorts of attitudes and drivers that lead
4:59
to that type of really full on violence?
5:02
Like how do we address the things that might seem innocent
5:05
or innocuous things that we might talk about today, like
5:08
negging, for example? Like how does that relate to
5:11
really, really serious, terrifying things?
5:14
And so for me, it's really, really important, I think, to
5:18
have these sorts of new features from Bumble and to have this
5:21
kind of accountability from a dating app, from a global dating
5:25
app that's saying, you know, we want women to feel safe on our
5:29
app. We want women to have
5:31
experiences that are positive because getting to meet someone
5:34
new should be exciting. You should have butterflies in
5:36
your stomach because you're thinking about the possibility
5:39
of what could be. You're not getting fearful
5:42
because you're worried about your physical safety.
5:44
And unfortunately, that's the reality for a lot of women.
5:46
So not one Moniki sort of works across the board to address that
5:50
type of thing. OK, so we have spoken about the
5:53
manosphere at length on this podcast, as I'm sure a lot of
5:56
our listeners know, but we've never actually done a completely
5:59
dedicated episode on this topic. As I mentioned at the top of the
6:03
episode, the online manosphere is a dark side to the Internet.
6:07
It is widely understood as an umbrella term for the men's
6:10
rights movement, capitalizing on the quote UN quote gripes that
6:14
many men have with gender equality and the feminist
6:17
movement at large. Though this is a blanket
6:20
statement, the users who operate in the manosphere typically have
6:23
a unifying ideology, believing that men, particularly white
6:27
men, are actually the victims of contemporary gender relations.
6:32
At its core, many manosphere participants and men's rights
6:35
activists see feminism as an obstacle to actualizing their
6:39
destiny of enforcing patriarchal gender roles.
6:43
As Denise Kennedy Caller puts it in her book Extremism and
6:46
Radicalization in the Manosphere quote, the manosphere attracts
6:50
disaffected, lonely, isolated, and unhappy young men.
6:54
For many, it radicalizes their despair into anger and hatred
6:57
and gives them an outside target on which to blame all their
7:00
problems while celebrating aggressive masculinity.
7:04
The ideological origins of the manosphere can be traced back to
7:07
the 1970s men's liberation movement.
7:10
This of course, was a response, or should I say a spin off to
7:14
the women's liberation movement of the same decade.
7:17
However, the term manosphere itself goes back to 2009, first
7:22
appearing on a Blogspot post to describe the various communities
7:25
catering to men's interests online.
7:28
The term was popularized years later when a man named Ian
7:31
Ironwood, who was a pornography marketer, self published a book
7:35
called The Manosphere, A New Hope for Masculinity.
7:38
Since then, journalists, podcasters, and commentators
7:41
have used the term to describe this space.
7:44
It has also become synonymous with violence, with many
7:46
journalists pointing to the manosphere as one of the drivers
7:49
of various mass shootings in the United States.
7:52
OK, so before we dive too deep, Tarong, I'm curious how familiar
7:56
you are with the manosphere and alpha male culture online.
7:59
When and how were you introduced to the side of the Internet?
8:04
I suppose, like any man, I'm very familiar with it, right?
8:09
I'm intimately familiar with it. Part of it is the fact that it
8:11
relates to a lot of my work. So I take sort of that kind of
8:15
forensic interest in it, I guess you'd call it.
8:18
But the other side of it is that as men on the Internet,
8:22
regardless of age, it's so easy to see this content, right, to
8:28
be exposed to it. And I think for me, I've really
8:32
witnessed and experienced how this online misogyny is fueling
8:36
real world violence, right? Not to say that what's happening
8:39
online is OK. There's a lot of people that
8:42
think that, oh, just because it's something written in the
8:44
comments section that it doesn't have genuine impacts on people's
8:48
lives and livelihoods. That's not the case, right?
8:50
A lot of the harmful stuff that said online has pretty
8:53
devastating consequences for women and girls in particular.
8:57
And so there's this whole thing, you know, where it's all of this
9:01
kind of radicalization under the guise of self help.
9:04
And so I think one of the things that I've seen and one of the
9:06
things that I've sort of become so familiar with is how, whether
9:10
it's Reddit forums or like just going on my own YouTube spiral,
9:13
seeing how quickly I can go from, you know, setting up an
9:18
app for the first time, whether it's TikTok or another app.
9:21
And then seeing how you go from like just generic, bland vanilla
9:24
content into stuff that is condoning rape or deep seated
9:29
misogyny and violence against women.
9:31
You know, and there's like, there's so many influences
9:33
online. I don't want to like name drop
9:35
them because I don't want them to get credit for what they do,
9:38
right? But we know who these people are
9:40
and they're propagating views online.
9:42
They're spreading messages online that I think really,
9:45
really harmful to women, but at the same time, I think that they
9:49
really limit men. You know, I think what I really
9:51
care about with this is the idea that self help for men is a bad
9:55
thing is something that I disagree with.
9:57
I think that content that helps men better themselves is
10:00
fantastic. What I worry about, you know,
10:03
and when I've paid more attention to what content men
10:05
are consuming, I've worried about how a lot of that stuff is
10:09
the kind of gateway. It's like the gateway drug to
10:13
more serious stuff. So it might start with, like,
10:15
fitness content, right? And that's great.
10:17
Like, if you want to look after yourself, fantastic.
10:19
But it quickly devolves into this kind of misogyny and hatred
10:23
of women and blaming women for the issues that men's men face.
10:28
And that's something that I just fundamentally disagree with.
10:30
And I think that, you know, more men would do a lot better in
10:33
their life and have better outcomes if they were a bit more
10:36
conscious about this type of content that, you know, they're
10:39
exposed to. And I guess going back to self
10:43
help content, I'm curious to hear what type of content then
10:47
you think men should be consuming or if there is any
10:51
kind of safe quote UN quote self help content for men that won't
10:55
lead them down a pipeline? I mean, there's a, there's a
10:57
bunch of like, you know, really good mental health podcasts that
11:01
are anchored by men or at least Co anchored by men.
11:04
And I think one of the things that they do well is that they
11:08
are pro feminist and pro social. So rather than blaming a
11:11
particular group, whether it's women or immigrants or people of
11:14
color or trans folk, rather than using a marginalized group as a
11:18
scapegoat, they really get to the core of what is the anxiety
11:22
or what is the fear or the apprehension that men are
11:24
experiencing. And I think that's sort of what
11:27
we might call positive masculinity that's under that
11:29
umbrella. And I think it's really powerful
11:31
because that type of content and being more selective as men
11:34
about the content that you consume really helps challenge
11:38
the manosphere, which has just become so powerful.
11:40
So the manosphere isn't unique to the United States, it's
11:44
international. The anti feminist ideology
11:47
extends beyond country, culture and religion, showing just how
11:50
powerful this kind of rhetoric and community can be.
11:53
That being said, theorizing the manosphere is tough, but various
11:57
experts have tried. A journal article by Debbie
12:00
Gang, a senior lecturer from Dublin City University,
12:03
investigates the masculinities and anti feminist sentiments
12:06
that have emerged across the manosphere.
12:09
Among her findings, she concludes that anti feminist
12:12
politics of the manosphere are rooted in extreme misogyny and
12:16
personal attacks directed towards specific women, most of
12:19
whom are publicly feminist. One of the most mainstream
12:22
examples of this phenomenon is of course Gamergate, which we
12:26
will get into later. As Gang notes quote, the
12:29
findings indicate a marked shift from a predominantly political
12:32
to a broadly cultural discourse, including a move toward a more
12:36
visual, video and meme based articulations of men's rights.
12:40
This is accompanied by a greater preoccupation with men's
12:43
personal relationships and psychological and emotional pain
12:46
rather than the collective political action.
12:49
Other academics have pointed to the phenomenon of aggrieved
12:51
entitlement to explain why men are drawn to the manosphere and
12:55
men's rights activist groups. To put it simply, aggrieved
12:58
entitlement is a feeling of being owed certain privileges
13:01
and a lifestyle and is often associated with CIS straight
13:04
white men. And to many of these men,
13:07
feminism and women's rights pose a threat to the life they were
13:10
quote UN quote promised Quote. As the saying goes, when one is
13:14
accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
13:17
In the manosphere, feminism has been conflated with female
13:20
superiority or the destruction of masculine.
13:23
Kennedy Caller continues in her book.
13:26
At the heart of the manosphere's anti feminist misogyny is an
13:29
insecurity about where they would find themselves in the
13:32
social order if basic notions of masculinity were culturally
13:36
redefined. From your point of view, Tarong,
13:39
what kinds of men are most vulnerable to being radicalized?
13:43
Oh. What a great question, Lauren.
13:45
I think, you know, we kind of in order to understand that we have
13:49
to get back to, I guess some of that stuff that you were saying
13:52
that, you know, in quoting Kennedy collar there about what
13:56
makes the manosphere so powerful.
13:58
And I think at its core, the types of men that get invested
14:03
in the messaging of the manosphere and sometimes fall
14:07
prey to it without necessarily realizing it are the ones who
14:10
are like directionless, you know, ones who might be
14:13
struggling with their own self esteem, their kind of identity.
14:17
And I think if we look at it like, if we take like this big
14:19
picture of you, like we step back for a second, there's been
14:21
like post second wave feminism, so many like advanced answers
14:25
for women, right, globally. And obviously so much more that
14:28
needs to be done, particularly with like an intersectional lens
14:30
and accounting for like the varying kind of experiences that
14:34
different types of women have across the world.
14:36
But I think what has happened is that you have this kind of thing
14:39
now where struggling men get this like identity, right?
14:43
They get this sense that instead of feeling disconnected,
14:46
emasculated and directionless, they latch onto these content
14:50
creators or these influencers, and ultimately they feel like
14:54
they now belong somewhere, right?
14:56
And I think one of the things that's really powerful there is
14:59
that the manosphere has sort of almost like the algorithm is
15:03
rewarding controversy, which gets clicks, right?
15:06
And so I'm sure you experience this, I'm sure listeners who
15:09
themselves are like content creators will find that like
15:12
they'll put stuff out on on socials and no one will engage
15:16
with it. And they do something more
15:17
controversial or they say something that's a bit more like
15:19
click baity. And all of a sudden it just
15:22
likes the most watched video that they've ever made.
15:24
And they're kind of a bit shocked themselves.
15:26
They're like, hang on a minute. Like what's going on here?
15:28
And what's going on is that this is by design, right?
15:31
It's by design that content that discriminates against
15:35
marginalized groups, women as a whole, right?
15:37
Not to mention like particular subgroups of women will end up
15:41
performing better, right? The algorithm is rewarding that.
15:44
And I think that on the counter, like the flip side of that has
15:47
been the places for men where they can sort of express
15:52
vulnerability, where they can express anxiety or fear without
15:56
being shamed are so few and far between, both in the real world
16:00
and especially online. And so you find this thing where
16:03
like, particularly in my work with young men, they often don't
16:06
want to go along with what they know is openly sexist or
16:09
misogynistic, But in order to fit in, they'll kind of the kind
16:14
of belief that they need to belong to a community of men
16:16
will trump whatever, like kind of moral values that were raised
16:21
in, in their family home or the things they learn at school or
16:23
at TAFE or university or whatever.
16:25
And I think it's really important, you know, if we're
16:28
trying to, if we're trying to address this, that we get to the
16:32
core of what types of men are vulnerable to radicalization.
16:35
And the common thread is that they are sort of men that are A,
16:39
searching for belonging and B, searching for someone to blame.
16:44
And I think that's the really powerful thing.
16:46
It's men who are open to blaming women or the feminist movement
16:51
at large without even really understanding what the feminist
16:53
movement is, because the feminist movement isn't about
16:56
women's superiority at all, right?
16:59
It's about women's equality, right?
17:02
And really about liberating men as well from gender stereotypes
17:06
that limit their own development, right?
17:08
It's about creating spaces where men can express themselves
17:11
freely. And I think, you know, the
17:12
manosphere has become so powerful because it's given
17:15
these men an identity, although it's like you touched on before,
17:19
it's built on grievance and hate.
17:21
And I think that's ultimately so counter to what we want boys to
17:25
have, which is role models for emotional literacy, role models
17:29
for their own well-being, role models for actually having
17:32
fulfilling like experiences on dating apps, right?
17:35
But unfortunately a lot of those kind of grifters, you know, that
17:40
are that are toxic male influencers aren't giving them
17:42
that in reality. It's clear that questions of
17:45
power and the potential of losing it propel the manosphere
17:48
forward. As we just mentioned, to many of
17:50
us, it is obvious that men continue to hold positions of
17:53
power across the board. You only need to look so far at
17:56
the gender gaps in political leadership and senior positions
17:59
in the workplace. But participants of the
18:01
manosphere would say otherwise. So it's worth questioning why
18:05
these men feel threatened in such a way that pushes them to
18:08
anti feminism and extreme misogyny.
18:11
To answer this we need to understand what these sub niches
18:14
value. Groups within the manosphere
18:16
tend to define a person according to their sexual market
18:20
value, SMV, or their level of sexual desirability, both for
18:24
men and women and for low status men, those who are seen as less
18:29
desirable or aren't having sex. This often feeds into their
18:32
sense of aggrieved entitlement. So, Tarong, what role do you
18:36
think loneliness and isolation play in pulling men toward these
18:40
spaces? Oh, it's a huge, it's a huge
18:43
factor, right? There's like a, there's a start
18:45
that like 75% of people want to feel less lonely.
18:50
And on the face of it, right, you can just look at that as
18:52
being numbers, right? But that's really three and four
18:54
people that want to feel less lonely.
18:56
So to me, that's kind of like almost a cry for connection.
18:59
And I think one of the things that happens here for men who
19:02
are drawn into the manosphere is that loneliness makes men
19:05
susceptible to spaces that offer quick answers, right?
19:09
I think that like actually doing the work is pretty confronting.
19:14
And it's also not very sexy. You know, like for men, the act
19:17
of like going to therapy or taking up a boxing class as a
19:20
way to like, healthily deal with like whatever aggression or
19:24
anger you're feeling, it requires putting in the work.
19:28
And I think it's so much easier to kind of look for a scapegoat.
19:32
And that's where a lot of these men get radicalized without
19:35
realizing it. And I think that's why it's
19:36
become such a big social problem is because it starts so
19:39
innocently. And I think one of the things,
19:41
you know, like, like Bumbles, you know, feature about being
19:44
able to share the date, I think it helps to like build trust,
19:47
right? Because it's kind of going in at
19:49
a level where men are kind of encouraged to be accountable
19:53
from the beginning, right? And it's kind of also addressing
19:56
the problem head on that a lot of women in particular when
19:58
they're going on dates, when they're meeting men for the
20:01
first time or even for the second or third time and not,
20:04
you know, necessarily as safe as they could or they should be.
20:07
And I think that it's really important that we kind of
20:10
understand that, yes, men are feeling lonely.
20:13
Only but loneliness is not a an excuse or a justification.
20:18
It's only an explanation for how they get radicalized, right.
20:21
So I think we have to like kind of juggle that kind of competing
20:24
truth where it's like a lot of men are using it as an excuse.
20:26
And you touched on that idea of like a grieved entitlement and
20:29
being owed something. And I think, you know, for the
20:31
male listeners or for those listening who have men in their
20:34
lives, I'd encourage them to listen to this segment of the
20:37
show and kind of reflect on the fact that women don't owe them
20:41
anything. You know, like Ronnie Chang, the
20:44
comedian has this amazing bit where he talks about how women
20:47
aren't vending machines for men, right?
20:50
Where it's just like, just because a lot of men will be
20:52
like, I bought her dinner, you know, or I paid for this.
20:54
And it's like, well, they don't owe you sex.
20:56
But it's because they're so ingrained in this, right?
20:58
And a lot of these toxic male influencers play directly into
21:01
that, that idea that the world has changed and you're the
21:04
victim now, right? And actually, that's not what's
21:07
happening. The world has changed to give
21:09
people more rights. And you said it before that, you
21:11
know, for those with privilege, equality can feel like
21:14
oppression. And that's what's happening
21:15
here. A lot of men are feeling like
21:17
they're lonely and victims and no one wants to date them and
21:21
that they like they're doomed. But that's not the case.
21:25
The actual flip side of this is that there's so much opportunity
21:27
for men. And I think loneliness kind of
21:29
is one of the ways that some of those manosphere influences
21:33
really play into the vulnerabilities and insecurities
21:36
that men have and sadly are going through very alone, you
21:40
know? And I think one of the antidotes
21:42
is for men to be more open to talking about this stuff and
21:44
actually sit in the discomfort of it.
21:48
Absolutely. So before we get into why the
21:51
manosphere has become increasingly mainstream and what
21:54
that means for both men and women, it's important to break
21:57
down some of the most prominent subcultures that exist within
22:00
it. Understanding these groups helps
22:03
clarify the underlying beliefs that drive the movement.
22:06
One umbrella idea within the manosphere is the concept of
22:09
being red pilled, with the terminology coming from the
22:12
Matrix being quote UN quote red pilled is being aware of the
22:16
alleged truth of the world, which includes waking up to
22:20
feminist brainwashing and misandry Tarong.
22:23
Do you think it's enough for men to simply avoid red pilled
22:27
content? Or how do you think men can be
22:30
more proactive in calling it out when they see it?
22:32
Or do you think men even realize that they are shown red pilled
22:36
content? I think it depends, right?
22:39
I think in some cases, and we're talking about particularly after
22:43
the success of adolescents on Netflix, we're having these
22:45
conversations around just how people at a very young age are
22:49
being radicalized. And I think in those situations,
22:53
you know, just from like a children's development
22:55
perspective, we're talking about kids here, right?
22:58
So they're not necessarily going to have the same response as
23:00
someone that's like 22, OK? And so for a lot of them, they
23:03
may not even be aware that they're being red pilled, right?
23:06
But for those that are old enough and have enough life
23:09
experience, I think often they are aware, right?
23:12
And it starts, as we were saying, pretty innocuous.
23:15
And I think what ends up happening is that those who
23:18
don't want it to continue just avoid it.
23:21
The problem is that avoiding it isn't enough.
23:23
Like, it still exists. It's still there.
23:25
I think silence allows it to spread because at the, you know,
23:29
the top of the show, when we were talking about how the
23:31
algorithm rewards controversy, this is the type of content that
23:34
gets so many more views, so many more clicks, and it gets shared
23:37
so much. And I think one of the things
23:39
for men is that we're often worried that calling things out
23:43
means confrontation. Calling things out means that
23:46
you have to take this kind of moral high ground.
23:48
And I don't think that's what calling things out actually is.
23:51
I think calling things out happens best when you don't do
23:54
it in a confrontational way. You know, I think you can do
23:57
things by a sharing better content, right?
23:59
So for men, rather than getting that kind of video and sharing
24:04
it that, you know, is kind of goes against your own moral
24:06
value, share the content that up with men that shows positive
24:09
examples of men doing really great things, whether that's for
24:12
men themselves or for women or for other people.
24:15
And that content does exist. It's there online.
24:18
And I think that's a really powerful thing.
24:21
I think another thing that can be really powerful is checking
24:24
on your friends, You know, particularly if you're a guy who
24:27
kind of sees that someone is going through like this kind of
24:29
mental health thing or they've recently been through a breakup.
24:32
Understanding that these are the risk factors where men get drawn
24:36
into manosphere content, right when they go through a breakup,
24:39
they're feeling at their lowest. We've all been through breakups.
24:42
It's when you feel like, okay, nobody loves me a not true
24:45
right. But when you're in the dumps,
24:47
right, and you're really, really depressed, a lot of these
24:51
influencers will capitalize on that.
24:53
They'll reach out to them in a way where it's like, hey, like
24:55
I'm here and this is how you get better, this is how you get the
24:58
girl, etcetera. And I think one of the things
25:01
that makes me really uncomfortable is that we have to
25:04
give men more opportunities to express themselves when they are
25:07
in that situation without shame, right?
25:09
So that men can feel vulnerable openly.
25:12
And I think also there is like one of the most powerful things
25:16
that I've found is not laughing along at jokes in say, group
25:20
chats. Not actually actually going with
25:22
the kind of stuff that denigrates women or marginalized
25:27
groups, right? Something so powerful, which is
25:29
so easy to do is when someone makes a sexist joke, ask them to
25:33
explain it. Just be like, wait up.
25:36
I don't, I don't get it. What do you mean?
25:38
And it's amazing how much stuff, right, How many reels we share
25:42
on Insta or how much, you know, how much stuff on TikTok just
25:46
ends up being not that funny, right?
25:49
And this isn't saying that you can't joke about topics, right?
25:52
It's saying that you have to, you know, that if you're a
25:55
content creator or a comedian or a budding comedian, you have to
25:58
be better than just punching down.
26:00
And I think, you know, I found it so powerful just asking
26:03
people to explain, like, I didn't get it, you know, because
26:07
then they themselves, as they're explaining it, are almost
26:10
telling on themselves. And they're like, wait, that's
26:12
yeah, now that's a bit awkward. Yeah.
26:14
Yeah, right. Flip.
26:15
The embarrassment, I guess. And that doesn't involve like
26:18
talking about feminism or misogyny or you don't have to
26:21
say any of those words. You just end up having the
26:24
conversation without having the conversation, which I think is,
26:27
you know, still as powerful, right, in terms of the outcome
26:31
that we seek. Like, I'd love it if we could be
26:33
in a world where it's like, we could just sit down with, you
26:36
know, two men could sit down and have an open conversation around
26:38
feminism or mental health or feelings.
26:41
But the reality is we're not there yet.
26:43
And we're not there yet because for a long time, men have been
26:45
shackled by these kinds of rigid expectations of masculinity.
26:49
And so kind of doing those things helps to not only avoid
26:53
red pill content, but actually to put it in its place.
26:57
Yeah. No, I love that.
27:00
Well, men's rights activists have quote UN quote taken the
27:03
red pill. But another prominent group that
27:05
have been red pilled are in cells.
27:08
In cells are probably the most widely recognized subculture
27:11
within the manosphere. We have spoken about this group
27:14
before, but as a quick reminder, an In Cell is a portmanteau that
27:17
stands for Involuntary celibate. Like other groups within the
27:21
manosphere, In Cells operate from a worldview rooted in
27:24
patriarchy, gender roles and eugenics.
27:27
They believe that they are owed sex, seeing women as gatekeepers
27:30
to something they believe is their right.
27:33
This perceived sexual rejection fuels resentment not just toward
27:37
women, but also towards so-called Chads, attractive,
27:40
sexually successful men. While In Cells were once
27:43
relegated to obscure blogs and forums, they have increasingly
27:47
found online community through mainstream platforms.
27:50
And even though this group has been condemned and repeatedly
27:53
banned for its misogynistic and dangerous rhetoric, spaces like
27:57
Reddit and now X have become new avenues for this ideology to
28:01
spread, helping bring it closer to the mainstream.
28:04
Another prominent group within the manosphere, and the last one
28:07
that we'll discuss here, are pickup artists.
28:09
These men rely on a set of strategies and psychological
28:12
tricks specifically designed to manipulate women into sleeping
28:16
with them. Much of this ideology is rooted
28:19
in Neil Strass's book The Game, which essentially offers a
28:22
playbook on how to, quote UN quote, win women through
28:24
manipulation rather than genuine connection.
28:27
One of the most well known tactics in this space, as Strong
28:30
already mentioned, is nagging, deliberately offering backhanded
28:34
compliments to create insecurity in a woman, making her more
28:37
likely to seek validation. Pickup artists also teach men to
28:41
quote flip the script, encouraging them to create a
28:44
dynamic where the woman is trying to gain the man's
28:47
approval. This behavior is undeniably
28:49
predatory, built on power imbalances and coercion rather
28:53
than mutual respect or attraction.
28:55
What's especially telling is that many men who identify as
28:59
pickup artists often struggle with romantic success and
29:02
instead of reflecting on themselves, turn to formulas and
29:05
manipulation to gain control. So, Tarong, what kind of
29:09
relationship dynamics are being encouraged when men are taught
29:12
to neg or manipulate women for validation?
29:17
I think at its core, it's kind of creating this dynamic, this
29:22
like relationship dynamic that's built on power or control, not
29:27
partnership, right? That's, that's really what we're
29:30
getting at here, that it's like the man is in charge and the
29:33
woman is secondary to that. And I think it's, it's also like
29:37
teaching men to fear women's agency rather than respect it,
29:42
which is kind of really weird dynamic, right?
29:44
Because a lot of this behavior from those who will use negging
29:49
is driven by fear and insecurity, right?
29:51
Like everything that we've learned so far in this episode
29:53
about the manosphere is that it's not driven from like men
29:57
are great, but we want them to be better than they are because
30:01
there's some issues, right? It's that like, women owe
30:04
something to men, Men are hard done by, men have been short
30:08
changed, everybody hates us, no one wants to date us, etcetera.
30:13
And that stuff isn't true. You know, I think one of the
30:15
things that really stands out for me in this conversation when
30:18
it comes to nagging and manipulation, Well, I guess
30:21
there's two things. One is, I just want to preface
30:23
that I'm not saying, and I don't think that this is only
30:27
something that men do, right? There are other people, women
30:30
who might use these sorts of tactics.
30:32
They might have even read the game.
30:33
I'm a millennial, so I like, I remember when it was like all
30:36
over the news and everyone was like almost encouraged to read
30:39
it. And it was kind of like almost
30:41
sold to men. I remember when I was younger,
30:42
it was like sold to men as being like the solution or the
30:45
antidote to their problems. And I think at the time, for me,
30:50
it was really difficult not to like, kind of be red pilled
30:52
because I was just like, wait, like, I'm not dating anyone.
30:56
Is this why? And it's not why I was single at
31:00
the time, right? It's got nothing to do with
31:01
that. And so that's the first thing.
31:04
And the second is that, like, you know, 96% of people that
31:07
Bumble interviewed, they want more respectful experiences,
31:12
right? So there's this kind of hunger
31:13
for healthier norms and relationship behaviours as well.
31:16
And I think that the dynamics from negging and manipulation
31:19
are that you're setting yourself up.
31:21
If you're a guy who's like trying to use these tactics,
31:24
you're ultimately setting yourself up for a relationship
31:28
that won't last the test of time, right?
31:30
You're not setting yourself up for a healthy partnership.
31:32
You're setting yourself up for failure.
31:35
And it might not happen straight away, but it will happen
31:37
eventually because no woman anywhere is going to want to be
31:42
with a guy who's just consistently treating her like
31:44
shit, right? And I'm not talking about like
31:46
playful teasing and banter. I'm talking about like
31:49
constantly putting someone down as a way to kind of keep them
31:52
under the thumb, right? To kind of exert control over
31:55
them. And I think one of the things
31:57
that like these pickup artists are doing here is that they're
32:00
kind of like they're playing into that vulnerability that men
32:03
have in a way where they're almost teaching men to like,
32:06
rehearse scripts rather than being their authentic self,
32:09
right? And I think, you know, and I can
32:11
never speak for women, but I think that all the women that
32:14
I've ever met want men to be more authentic, right?
32:19
They want men to connect with them.
32:20
They want connection over performance, right?
32:24
And a lot of the stuff that's in like the game and other
32:27
strategies for pick up, for picking up and like from pick up
32:30
artists generally is kind of like grounded in this idea that
32:34
men are like deficient and they need to follow this script,
32:38
right? And so it kind of limits women,
32:40
but it also limits men and makes them almost like they're a bit
32:43
dumb or stupid and that their own charm or their own
32:47
authenticity is not what's going to work for them.
32:50
And I think it's really, really great to see kind of this shift
32:54
in Gen. Z, right?
32:55
There's one thing I think Gen. Z is doing really amazing. 79%
32:58
of Gen. Z people that Bumble interviewed
33:00
would say that like, self love is foundational.
33:03
So for me, I'm pretty optimistic.
33:04
I think there's hope, right? That kind of younger, younger
33:08
users of the app and younger people in the dating scene kind
33:12
of value that idea of like self love and self development.
33:16
That's actually better for everyone.
33:18
And I think that's really powerful to me because I think
33:20
all of those kinds of dating app coaches and all that, ultimately
33:24
the majority of them are just teaching you a script.
33:27
And that's not what a real relationship looks like.
33:29
That's not what real connection in the long term looks like.
33:32
It might get you the first day, it might set you up for the
33:34
second, but that's it, right? And most men don't aspire just
33:39
to be fuck boys. And so I think what's really,
33:41
really powerful is that actually, like, leaning into the
33:45
vulnerability, actually leaning into the fear and having these
33:47
kinds of experiences that are grounded in authenticity and
33:52
connection and the kind of the uncomfortable fact of like,
33:56
dating is messy but also fun, right?
33:59
And I think that's what's really powerful here.
34:01
And we're kind of seeing that come through.
34:03
And I think it's like we're living in this really
34:05
interesting time now where I think more men are open to this
34:08
conversation. And for men who are listening,
34:10
who are a bit worried, like, I'm going to be judged, Yeah, you
34:12
might be right. I'm not going to sit here and
34:14
pretend and tell you that, like, people aren't going to judge you
34:16
or think it's weird or maybe even call you slurs.
34:19
But you know, the reality is that there are enough people now
34:22
that actually want to see the flip side, especially women.
34:24
So if you're like a guy who like exclusively only dates women,
34:27
then like it's probably better for you to lean into the
34:30
authentic side of yourself that's a little bit
34:32
uncomfortable, a little bit fearful that sometimes cries,
34:35
you know, the same scene in a movie or whatever.
34:38
And just lean into that because I think you'll actually have
34:40
probably better dating prospects and results if you actually just
34:44
embrace that side of yourself more.
34:45
So while the Manosphere is diverse, spanning across
34:48
multiple platforms, forms, and creators, its members are
34:51
ultimately united by a shared, red pilled ideology.
34:55
At its core, the manosphere promotes male supremacy, a
34:58
shared sense of victimhood, and a tendency to blame women for
35:02
changes in society that allegedly prioritize female
35:05
empowerment. Despite their different
35:07
approaches, they all feed into the same key belief that
35:10
feminism, equality, and women's success comes at the cost of
35:14
men's power. After defining the manosphere
35:17
and exploring some of its niches, it's not surprising that
35:20
this corner of the Internet and the ideology that comes with it
35:24
started as a fringe movement. But what was once seen as
35:28
extreme is becoming increasingly mainstream.
35:31
We talk a lot about the broader shift toward conservatism
35:34
online, from the rise of trad wives to aesthetics like quiet
35:38
luxury, clean girl, and old money, all of which subtly or
35:42
not so subtly lean into the conservative values and the
35:45
celebration of wealth. This shift obviously poses
35:47
significant threats to women and other people who are not CIS,
35:51
white, and straight. And while these aesthetic trends
35:53
are harmful, none pose as great a threat as the manospheres move
35:57
into the mainstream. Before I dive into some theories
36:01
strong, do you want to share any theories that you have as to why
36:04
the manosphere has gone mainstream?
36:06
Yeah, I think it's because masculinity is in a state of
36:09
flux. I think that masculinity isn't
36:12
what it kind of used to be like traditional masculinity.
36:15
And so I guess influencers have stepped in where institutions
36:20
have failed, right? There used to be kind of common
36:22
rites of passage that boys and men kind of underwent.
36:26
That was like how they experienced what becoming a man
36:30
was and what being a man meant. And a lot of that stuff now
36:34
doesn't exist in the way that it used to.
36:36
And I think that's largely for the better, right?
36:39
I think a lot of the ways that boys were taught to be men in
36:41
the past were rooted in kind of sexism or misogyny.
36:46
And now, unfortunately, not only is that still the case in some
36:50
segments, it's grown to become more violent, more possessive
36:54
and more entitled than ever before.
36:56
Right? And I think that one of the
36:58
reasons that the manosphere has gone mainstream is that these
37:01
kinds of new methods, where pop culture is full of these
37:04
figures, is that it's normalized views of men's entitlement over
37:08
women's bodies, their choices, their experiences.
37:10
And so we've seen it like, in terms of legislation, like when
37:14
we saw the kind of the overturning of Roe V.
37:16
Wade in the United States, we saw like, how laws were
37:20
changing. And so now when institutions
37:23
have failed, women and men feel imbolved, boldened, right?
37:27
We're seeing that there are men who are like grifters
37:30
capitalizing on this and they're making so much money.
37:33
And I think I wish that, like, you know, our younger male
37:36
listeners understood that a lot of these people don't actually
37:39
really care about you or your well-being.
37:41
They just see someone that they can make money from, you know,
37:44
and that's the most depressing thing because they don't
37:46
actually really care about you. They don't want you to get the
37:48
girl. They don't want you to have the
37:50
lifestyle. They don't want you to like,
37:52
look old money, right? They just want you to buy
37:57
whatever it is that they're selling.
37:59
And I think that's such a depressing thought and
38:00
depressing reality. And so now they're offering this
38:03
sense of identity and direction and it's just wrapped up in
38:06
misogyny. And one of the kind of best
38:08
quotes that I was ever told about this stuff is that how
38:13
there are generations of men. You know, now when we hear about
38:16
men shifting towards the right, like younger man and going
38:18
towards this idea of like wanting the trad wife aesthetic
38:21
from their female partners and stuff.
38:23
Is that the kind of younger generation of men have the same
38:27
misogyny and sexism of previous generations, but none of the
38:30
life skills. So like they can punch a hole in
38:33
drywall, but they don't know how to plaster up and fix it.
38:35
That's really funny. And I thought that was kind of
38:37
really like, you know, almost like telling on themselves, like
38:40
they don't actually know how to do stuff that traditional men
38:43
knew how to do. And so for those men who are
38:45
kind of really, you know, deep into that red pill ideology,
38:49
it's almost like, bro, like, check yourself, like actually do
38:52
a stock take of going, what's actually going well for me?
38:55
And is it because all women suck and women are to blame and, you
39:00
know, feminists are evil. And if they're really honest,
39:05
the answer is no. The answer is never that women
39:07
are to blame or that feminism is equal.
39:09
The answer is that there's a handful of content creators that
39:12
they probably started following online because they thought that
39:15
they'd helped them in some way. And maybe they did at first,
39:18
right? Maybe they did.
39:19
But now all they're interested in is that they continue like
39:24
paying for that subscription or that they continue basically
39:27
sharing their content so more vulnerable men see it.
39:29
So rather than actually helping men, they're setting them back.
39:33
So there are a couple of central moments that have propelled the
39:36
manosphere into normalcy over the last few years.
39:39
First and foremost is Gamergate. This was a massive harassment
39:43
campaign in 2014 that targeted women who spoke out against
39:47
misogyny and gaming. It all started when indie game
39:50
developer Zoe Quinn released a game called Depression Quest.
39:54
Soon after, an ex-boyfriend of Zoe's posted a lengthy, invasive
39:58
blog accusing her of cheating with several men in the gaming
40:01
industry, reportedly to boost her career.
40:04
One of those men was allegedly a writer for Kotaku, a major
40:07
gaming publication named Nathan. Although both Zoe and Nathan
40:12
denied the allegations, waves of gamers swarmed Twitter, Reddit,
40:16
and 4 Chan, claiming that this was a quote ethical breach in
40:19
gaming journalism. While the Gamergaters claimed
40:22
they were fighting to expose corruption by any means
40:26
necessary, their actions were ultimately pure harassment.
40:30
Women faced relentless abuse and threats, some so severe that the
40:34
FBI got involved. One of the women, aside from
40:37
Zoe, who faced this abuse, a commentator named Anita
40:40
Sarkeesian, became a subject of a video game where people could
40:44
beat her up. Ultimately, the unchecked
40:47
misogyny and pure violence of Gamergaters marked one of the
40:50
first major collective hate campaigns against women coming
40:54
from today's manosphere. Not only did these participants
40:57
position their agenda through the mantle of victimhood and
41:00
morality, but it was also a clear shift toward personalized
41:04
attacks on women, a characteristic that's deeply
41:06
embedded in the manosphere. As we have already touched on,
41:09
establishing a kind of ethical and moral superiority has gone a
41:13
long way in normalizing the manosphere.
41:15
This sense of victimhood, A mentality that wrongfully took
41:19
off after the Me Too movement, is an extremely powerful form of
41:23
collective identity. It can offer a sense of
41:26
community, an explanation or excuse for why things may be
41:30
bad, or even a scapegoat. Victimhood is a rallying
41:34
emotion, an easy way to get people on board with A cause.
41:38
And when it comes to the manosphere, this is exactly what
41:41
has permitted its expansion. And this attitude, of course,
41:44
reflects society and politics on a more macro level.
41:48
That brings us to another reason why the manosphere has gone
41:51
mainstream, the rise of people like Donald Trump and Elon Musk
41:56
in positions of power. Here, there are two broad
41:59
factors about Trump that have normalized the manosphere.
42:02
The first is that Trump is a man that has been held liable for
42:05
sexual assault and said some pretty disgusting things about
42:09
women. Unfortunately, this hasn't
42:11
proven to be an obstacle on his pursuit of the US presidency.
42:15
Instead, it only validated many of the manosphere's beliefs.
42:19
Trump's public persona has led many men to see his ascendancy
42:23
as an opportunity to effectively push back against feminism now
42:27
that a quote UN quote real man is in the White House.
42:30
But the second and often overlooked factor is Trump's
42:33
populist bent. Populism is generally understood
42:36
as an ideology that attaches itself to other political
42:39
movements and beliefs. At the core of populism, though,
42:42
is a feeling of victimhood that the elites are ripping the
42:45
people off by feeding into populist rhetoric.
42:47
Trump has successfully shown the power of victimhood as an
42:50
identity definer, validating the manosphere's tendencies.
42:55
Truong, when misogyny gets wrapped up in the sense of
42:57
victimhood and identity and content that is constantly
43:01
pushed out online, which we have talked about a little bit so
43:03
far, Do you think it can be undone or how can it be undone?
43:08
Yeah, I think it can. I think it can.
43:11
And, and I don't say that because I'm just, you know,
43:14
wildly optimistic and living in some fantasy land, right?
43:19
I think it can be undone, but that comes with some caveats,
43:23
right? It comes with some cautions.
43:24
It takes time and it takes real effort.
43:27
And I think one of the ways that we get there is that men need
43:31
unlearning and then relearning, not just shaming, you know?
43:34
And from my perspective, I think that's why I try to advocate
43:37
rather than just say criticize, you know, like you will never
43:40
see me on social media saying that all men are bad or that all
43:44
men are evil. I'll only ever say that I think
43:47
all men play a role in the culture that might normalize
43:51
violence against women, right? Because whether all men are
43:54
violent or not, which we know they're not, all men benefit
43:58
from men's kind of violence in the way that women are fearful,
44:03
whether it's in public spaces or when they're in dating
44:06
situations. And so I think it feels like
44:10
this kind of mountain that we can't climb.
44:13
It feels insurmountable. And I think one of the reasons
44:16
is that for a long time, it's been on women's shoulders to
44:19
kind of bring about this change. But I think it can change,
44:24
right? And one example that I think is
44:26
really important is that culture can change.
44:29
If we look at how we talk about mental health now, we'll see
44:32
just how much the culture has shifted, right?
44:35
There used to be this idea that if you had depression or anxiety
44:40
that you just get over it. But now we talk about it so much
44:45
more differently, and it's not fixed, right?
44:48
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we don't have way
44:50
more work to do when it comes to mental health and mental
44:52
illness, but we're talking about it in a way that is far less
44:56
victim blaming than it was before.
44:58
And I think when it comes to this idea of misogyny that's
45:01
wrapped up in victimhood and in cells and the manosphere more
45:05
broadly, culture can change, but it's going to take time and real
45:09
effort. Yeah, absolutely.
45:12
And I think all of this, coupled with the way that women's rights
45:15
have progressively been stripped back over the past decade, all
45:18
of that has really emboldened the manosphere.
45:21
And as a result, this side of the Internet has become more
45:24
palatable to the masses. Though a lot of what we've
45:28
spoken about is unfolding in the United States, we can't overlook
45:32
the implications for us here in Australia.
45:34
As we've already discussed, the online world, and the manosphere
45:38
specifically, is a transnational space.
45:41
That means trends, ideologies and the movements gaining
45:44
traction overseas can easily bleed into our own digital
45:48
landscape. So, Tarong, how do you think
45:51
that Australia fits into the broader picture of the
45:55
manosphere? And are we seeing a mirroring of
45:58
international trends or something more homegrown?
46:02
I think that we in Australia right mirror the US and UK
46:06
trends, definitely, but I think we also add some of our own that
46:10
isn't as particularly in the US as visible.
46:13
And that's that idea of, I guess, larrikinism, you know, or
46:17
like the Aussie bloke who's always having banter.
46:19
And I think that's something that plays out in Australia and
46:22
often the kinds of critics of equality or feminism or, you
46:27
know, issues relating to gender equality often talk about how,
46:30
oh, you can't be a bloke anymore, you can't have banter.
46:33
And so I think that one of the things that Australia does
46:36
that's unique is that we use that as a gateway to casual
46:41
sexism to normalize the denigration or putting down of
46:45
women, right? And I think that's sort of one
46:48
of the things that sets Australia apart in a, in a
46:52
harmful way from say, the US or the UK.
46:54
We also have homegrown influencers here too.
46:56
You know, we have a lot of unfortunately like people who
47:00
claim to be mental health influencers or advocates, but in
47:03
actual fact they're just either, you know, propagating kind of
47:08
misogynistic talking points or men's rights activism.
47:12
And we have less regulation here in the Australian kind of legal
47:15
compliance regulatory component. And so I think that's what makes
47:18
it sort of different to the UK and the US And also I think one
47:23
of the things that's quite worrying is that the stakes in
47:26
Australia are real. You know, Australia has in the
47:29
developed world, you know, pretty high rate of domestic
47:32
abuse and violence. And I think one of the things
47:35
there is that it can be a bit confronting for a lot of
47:37
Australian men to grapple with because often they'll look at
47:41
other parts of the world where women might may have few rights
47:44
and they go, oh, it's a problem over there, happens over there,
47:47
or people of color do. It's not what we do here.
47:48
It's not our color, but unfortunately, it's normalized
47:52
enough here, right? It's normalized enough here that
47:55
there is like, you know, a government national plan to
47:58
reduce violence against women. It's not doing well, but that's
48:01
because it's not just the role of government.
48:03
It's the role of everybody, not just institutions, to actually
48:06
be accountable and responsible for this.
48:07
So I think Australia fits in globally in the sense that,
48:10
yeah, we're a small population, but that doesn't mean that we
48:12
have an excuse to continue any of this kind of behavior.
48:16
So I wanted to round off this episode by exploring how the
48:20
rise of the manosphere and alpha male culture and everything we
48:23
just talked about has impacted dating, particularly for Gen.
48:27
ZI know, we touched about it a little bit at the top of the
48:30
episode, but how does the manosphere shape what young men
48:35
believe women should want in a partner?
48:38
And how do you think that this is influencing how young people
48:41
are approaching dating? Yeah, I think this whole
48:45
manosphere thing is really shifting the kind of way that
48:50
men approach dating, the way that they view women, whether or
48:56
not they are dating. And I think one of the things
48:58
that is happening is that it's kind of training men to accept
49:02
submission from women. It's training men that they are
49:06
superior and dominant and that women are inferior second class
49:10
beings. And that's not true.
49:11
There is no biological basis for that.
49:14
There is no scientific basis for that.
49:16
There is only a cultural one that's being normalized.
49:19
And I think that it's training men to expect submission from
49:22
women rather than shared values. You know, and it might seem like
49:26
some of these trends are just a little bit of fun, right?
49:29
But in actual fact, they're kind of speaking to this kind of
49:33
shifting value system where there are men who view women
49:36
negatively. And I think that's really,
49:38
really worrying. And like 93% of, you know,
49:41
Bumble users want an alignment in values, right?
49:44
So the tide is turning. They want to see that their
49:47
perspective, like romantic partners share some of the same
49:50
core values and moral beliefs. And one of those is gender
49:54
equality, the idea that women and men and transgender folk,
49:57
that everyone is an equal human being deserving of dignity and
50:00
safety and respect. And that kind of gap between
50:03
what men expect and what women want is becoming clearer.
50:08
But it's also fixable. So if men are consuming the type
50:13
of content that we were speaking about earlier, like pickup
50:16
artist content and the like, how can they tell when it's crossed
50:21
into something more toxic? And how would you say that they
50:26
can, I guess mediate that? I think, you know, one of the
50:31
things there is that we have to kind of, you know, if you're a
50:34
man who sees this content, kind of think about what are the
50:38
expectations of women and men that are being put out through
50:40
this content? Is it expecting that, you know,
50:43
or is it framing things that like women are out to manipulate
50:46
them, in which case that's a red flag, right?
50:49
Don't engage with that kind of content, right?
50:51
Is it the kind of content that's making it seem like women have
50:54
to play therapist, right? Or is it creating an environment
50:58
where there's fear, where there should be, I guess, curiosity,
51:02
right? We want to be able to encourage
51:03
men to be able to identify what is actually helping and what is
51:08
potentially harming. And I guess at its core, the
51:11
most foundational thing is that if you are a man who comes
51:15
across content and you're not sure if it's the kind of content
51:18
that is manosphere red pill stuff, right?
51:21
Ask yourself one question. Ask who is it saying is
51:26
responsible for this? Is it blaming women and girls?
51:30
Is it blaming others? Then maybe it's not the answer.
51:36
If it frames women as the enemy, then potentially it's toxic.
51:40
If it encourages manipulation or blame, then potentially it's
51:43
toxic. You know?
51:44
So ask yourself this, is this helping me to grow and be
51:48
better? Or is this making me more angry?
51:51
Is this making me feel like women are to blame and that the
51:55
only way forward is for a return to some weird utopia where men
51:59
had all the rights, you know? And it's kind of that critical
52:03
self reflection and that critical engagement is so, so
52:06
important, you know? And I don't blame people from
52:10
Gen. Z in particular, right?
52:12
Because never before, like Lauren, you'll know this as a
52:15
millennial, we occupied a world before we were inundated with
52:19
all this stuff. Yeah, right.
52:20
We old. Yeah, yeah, literally.
52:22
Yeah. I feel so old.
52:23
But that's not the case anymore. Yeah, I know, right?
52:26
It's now we're like a world where you won't even know how
52:30
much stuff you actually are consuming because it's
52:34
everywhere, right? We're bombarded with messages
52:37
and that makes it really, really hard.
52:38
That makes it really difficult. And so I think one of the things
52:41
for everyone, but especially boys and men, is to ask, is this
52:45
helping me grow or is this making me angry?
52:47
Because if it is just there to make you angry and blame shift,
52:51
then you're not going to grow from that.
52:53
You're not actually going to become better.
52:55
Your dating prospects won't improve, Your romantic life
52:57
won't improve. You probably won't end up
52:59
getting jacked any anyway, right?
53:01
No matter how much you go to the gym, it's actually it's bad for
53:03
your health, right? So all of this stuff, right,
53:07
whether you care about women or not, and I'd encourage you to
53:10
definitely care about women is going to have negative like
53:13
health impacts for you as a guy. So it's like a lose, lose.
53:17
OK, so then how can we encourage young men to take one step
53:22
further and actively work against misogyny?
53:25
So let's say they've identified the content.
53:28
They're like, this is making me angry.
53:29
I can tell this is red pilled content.
53:31
How then do we get them to care about misogyny?
53:35
It's a really good question, you know, And I think that what we
53:38
can do to help men counter misogyny, particularly online,
53:42
is to think about the kind of content that they engage with.
53:46
So follow better role models, right?
53:48
Actually engage with the men who are putting content out there
53:53
that does address these issues, but in a way that doesn't blame
53:56
women or other groups, right? Speaking up in Group chats, even
54:00
with humor, right? Not laughing along at those
54:03
jokes, right? Particularly, you know, know,
54:05
when you meet someone new and you're sharing like, you know,
54:07
experiences of like, your first date or something.
54:09
If someone makes a sexist comment or a joke about someone
54:12
that they've just met or that they're about to go on a date
54:14
with, don't laugh along at those kinds of sexist jokes, right?
54:19
Actually create an environment that is not like a safe space,
54:23
but a brave place, right? A brave place to actually stand
54:27
up against sexism or misogyny. And then I think ultimately
54:32
understanding that your social media is yours alone, right?
54:37
Your feed, right? Whether it's on TikTok, it's
54:40
your for you page, or it's your Discover page on other apps,
54:43
it's actually able to be curated according to what you believe,
54:49
right? You can shape it according to
54:50
whatever you want, right? And so actually be a bit more
54:54
intentional with what you consume online.
54:57
And I think for a lot of men in particular, they won't
55:00
necessarily realize that they've been drawn into this kind of red
55:05
pill dark side of the Internet in the manosphere because it
55:08
starts so innocently, right? And I think being more
55:12
intentional with how you consume and engage with social media is
55:15
a really, really powerful way not only to counter misogyny
55:19
online, but actually to have a better experience.
55:21
You know, like governments, for example, have proposed things
55:24
like a social media ban and all that kind of thing.
55:26
And I just think that stuff is so ridiculous, right?
55:29
I like, I remember being young and if my parents were like,
55:32
don't do something or the government was like, you can't
55:35
do this. I feel like I'm definitely doing
55:37
that. That is 100% the only thing I
55:39
want to do now. And so like, I don't think this
55:42
will work. You know, I think this is a real
55:44
kind of policy failing as an idea.
55:48
And I think we, you know, I can't, I can't say we because I
55:53
don't really fit into the young people umbrella anymore.
55:54
But like, but I think that young people have the answer and it's
55:59
being intentional in the content that they consume, you know, and
56:02
I love seeing when, you know, particularly young men will
56:06
like, they'll pull out their phone and they'll be like, hey,
56:08
this is the stuff that I'm looking at.
56:10
What do you think? And it's kind of like it's
56:11
footballers or sports people who are a bit more open about their
56:14
social values or, you know, for example, athletes that have
56:19
stood up for the Black Lives Matter movement, you know, and
56:21
actually shared resources. And I think that that stuff is
56:25
really, really powerful. You know, and seeing
56:27
particularly sports people and seeing you know, kind of
56:30
traditional kind of quote UN quote, alpha male types share
56:33
this stuff is so good because it's not just the kind of like
56:37
soy boys or whatever. It's now like getting to the
56:40
kind of the the parts of of mainstream culture where quote
56:46
UN quote, normal men, right? Or men who look like men are
56:51
actually taking a stand. And I think it's really, really
56:53
powerful. So follow those role models,
56:55
like actively reject the types of ones who by just saying stuff
57:00
that you don't believe in and hold yourself and your friends
57:03
to account. And really what you consume
57:06
shapes what you believe, right? And if you genuinely make a
57:10
conscious choice to actively just get rid of that stuff,
57:14
firstly the algorithm will learn from it and it won't show it to
57:17
you, but you'll also end up finding another corner of the
57:20
Internet which has great examples of masculinity that
57:23
will do a lot more for you. Shame doesn't change behaviour,
57:26
but belonging does. It is when men are in a place of
57:30
maybe despair or despondency or loneliness or isolation, when
57:35
they are at their most vulnerable, that these types of
57:38
red pill content creators are actually using that as an
57:40
opportunity to line their own pockets, right, to get rich off
57:44
them. Think that when we give men that
57:46
sense of purpose and empathy, they're able to choose better.
57:49
They're able to make better decisions.
57:51
And one of the most beautiful things there is that not only do
57:53
they benefit, but the women in their lives actually, you know,
57:56
comment on it. And they're like, you know, he's
57:58
so much better to be around. He's you know, he's actually
58:00
looking after himself, etcetera. And I think it's really, really
58:03
powerful. And so for me, a lot of this
58:05
actually speaks to the possibilities that this has for
58:07
men rather than what's being taken away.
58:10
I love that. All right, so to round off this
58:14
ginormous episode with your role as Bumbles safety advocate, what
58:19
initiatives do you think could be implemented on dating
58:22
platforms to promote healthier, more respectful interactions
58:26
that could counter those toxic behaviors emerging from spaces
58:29
like the manosphere? Yeah, I think, you know, I have
58:32
to say, and hats off to Bumble for this because they've sort of
58:35
understood that technology has the possibility to help, right?
58:40
They've actually understood that as an app that prioritizes
58:44
women's empowerment and women leading the way and going first,
58:49
that they can use that technology and harness it for
58:52
good. So features like ID
58:54
verification, right, that you can go on the app and I've done
58:58
it. It takes 2 seconds, literally,
59:00
you use your government issued ID and you verify yourself.
59:03
And then it shows people that are prospective matches, that
59:06
you're legit, that you are who you say you are.
59:08
It's it leads to better matches, right?
59:10
I think that's amazing. The idea that you can review
59:13
before you send. I think that's really powerful,
59:15
right? I know that we all kind of
59:17
sometimes want someone to sense check our messages.
59:20
They want us to read before we send something and go, you know,
59:23
is that flirty? Is that banter?
59:25
Or is that crossing the line into something that's right?
59:29
And for a lot of guys in particular who've been force fed
59:33
and shoved down their throats, all this negative messaging
59:35
about what it you know, how you pick up women or how you meet
59:38
women and how you kind of can have more matches that review
59:43
before you send is a really powerful way to go.
59:47
Hey, you sure like that Isn't you know, Are you sure that you
59:51
want to send that? So I think what's really
59:53
powerful about the way it works as well, having been able to
59:56
like demo it is see that it doesn't say to you outright.
59:59
Like you can't say this right. It doesn't say that's bad.
1:00:03
Instead, it gives you an opportunity to be self
1:00:06
reflective. And I think that's one of the
1:00:07
most powerful things. Is Bumble understanding that?
1:00:10
Giving men the opportunity to actually do what they know is
1:00:14
right is so much more powerful than just telling people this is
1:00:17
what's right and this is the way that you have to be.
1:00:19
And so I think Bumble is doing an amazing job there,
1:00:22
particularly in light of the fact that 95% of users want
1:00:26
dating apps to stop harm before it starts, right?
1:00:29
They want them to prevent it. And so I guess this is, you
1:00:32
know, Bumble's moment to lead. And they're doing that.
1:00:34
And I'm really proud to be partnering with Bumble as a
1:00:36
safety advocate for that. But then also I think
1:00:39
understanding that it's not just about the app, right?
1:00:43
It's not just on Bumble. It's actually on all people, all
1:00:47
users of the app, especially men to understand that this is
1:00:50
cultural. And when I say it's cultural, I
1:00:53
don't mean that it's like I'm South Asian, Indian background.
1:00:55
I don't mean like it's, you know, if you're Indian or you're
1:00:58
African or you're Dominican or whatever, It's not like that.
1:01:02
It means cultural in terms of like the society that we live
1:01:05
in, right? It means culture in terms of
1:01:07
society. And Bumble is creating this
1:01:09
space for new conversations, for for better conversations.
1:01:13
It's creating this space for men to be engaged in conversations
1:01:16
that prioritize safety and empowerment when it comes to
1:01:19
dating. And I think that's where that
1:01:21
kind of intersection is that dating apps like Bumble are
1:01:25
doing an amazing job with these new features.
1:01:27
But ultimately, we have to encourage, and I really want to
1:01:31
see more men using these features because I think
1:01:33
ultimately then it's going to create a safer experience for
1:01:36
women, right? Because if you're a guy who
1:01:38
feels alarmed or shocked or scared when you hear the
1:01:41
statistics about the kinds of experiences that women have
1:01:45
instead of just going, well, I'm not one of those guys because I
1:01:48
don't do that. You know, I'd never spike a
1:01:49
woman's drink or I'd never cross the boundaries of consent or I'd
1:01:53
never, you know, a no means no. It's not enough anymore, right?
1:01:58
It's not enough to just go, well, I'm one of the good guys
1:02:00
because that's the bare minimum, right?
1:02:02
That's the ground floor. And so this is really an
1:02:05
opportunity, I think, for men to be part of the conversation.
1:02:09
And so I'm proud that Bumble has LED that using their tech to
1:02:12
actually make things better. But actually now it's kind of
1:02:15
almost an invitation for men in Australia to go, OK, what kind
1:02:18
of man do I want to be? Thank you so much for joining me
1:02:22
today. Thank you for having me.
1:02:24
Thank you. Where can people find you?
1:02:26
I'm on all the socials, Just type my name in at Tarang Chola.
1:02:31
I'm there. Get in touch if anything that's
1:02:33
come up in here. You got questions about it, I
1:02:36
check my DMS. It'd be lovely to hear from you.
1:02:38
And yeah, stay safe. Infinite Scroll is a podcast
1:02:43
produced, presented and Co written by me, Lauren Meisner
1:02:46
for Centennial World. This episode was researched and
1:02:49
Co written by Annabelle Ben David.
1:02:51
Thank you so much for listening. I love you guys and I will talk
1:02:54
to you next week. Bye.